PDA

View Full Version : Why can't any star PF defend nowdays?



Hellcrooner
12-27-2012, 11:55 AM
There was a time when Defense was something sustantial to a Pf, Karl Malone, K Willis ( when playing pf) , Mchale,buck williams and so on.


But nowdays neither star Pf seems to be good at it or maybe they dont care, the last two ones to deffende were duncan and Kg when they played the position ( now they play center).

as for the rest?

Any top 10 pf list out tehre will have these players in different orders, but the common denominator is their defense goes from average to abismal.

Dirk, called out for his defense.
Love, Defense is a blatant weakness.
Griffin, Called out for his defense.
Bosh, Called out very frecuently for his defense.
Pau. gasoft and the rest of the ****.
Aldrige, called out constantly.
David Lee, Hughe Weakness.
Randolph, Called out for being lazy on defense constantly.
Stoudamire: just :facepalm:
Boozer: Called out for his D.
Bargnani: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:



and to make it worst, except for the bolded ones, Rebounding seems to be an issue with them nowdays too

So, whats going on with the position?

Chronz
12-27-2012, 12:08 PM
Bosh has been good in Miami, Blake has been good this year. Pau used to be good but got old, and Z-Bo tries hard so hes adequate but he lacks many tools.

Sly Guy
12-27-2012, 12:10 PM
as a toronto fan, add at least 6 more facepalms for bargnani.

RLundi
12-27-2012, 12:12 PM
Lol at Bargnani being facepalmed 4x :laugh2:

haggis
12-27-2012, 12:18 PM
I've been saying this for awhile too Crooner. There are no real 2 way PFs in the league anymore in the mold of Malone, young Duncan, young Garnett, etc. You either have starters who play little to no D or defensive specialists with no offense.

SlimKid
12-27-2012, 12:23 PM
Seems like modern day PF's play farther away from the basket with the influx of PF's who can shoot consistently from the outside, especially with the likes of Dirk, Love, etc. who shoot the 3 at a decent clip, therefore PF's defending are asked to defend completely different from the guys who cam before them.

^^random observation

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-27-2012, 12:24 PM
The league has seemed to go from land of giants to athletic smalls. In 20 years defense will be a thing of the past.

Cal827
12-27-2012, 12:25 PM
as a toronto fan, add at least 6 more facepalms for bargnani.

More like 15 more. He's a worst defender than my Lawyer :facepalm:

I would say the variance at PF maybe as some can play like Centers, while others play more like SFs or outside players.

Maybe because Centers are generally looked at as defensive staples, that teams don't focus in on making their PFs better defensively.

Unlike the 90s, where there were all-around guys like Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem (Yes I know he was defensive, but he put up very good offensive #s too), Shaq, the 00s saw the Center position fall off, and guys like Jerome James and Diop got big contracts, just cause they could defend or block.

Yeah, I'm just making **** up. But the discrepancy defensively from the PFs makes me appreciate Duncan even more :D

Capital G
12-27-2012, 12:40 PM
do you consider anthony davis a PF? varejao? noah?

faried
josh smith

LAKobeBryant
12-27-2012, 12:46 PM
do you consider anthony davis a PF? varejao? noah?

faried
josh smith

Those aren't stars. Only Noah is but he's a center

JasonJohnHorn
12-27-2012, 12:57 PM
I think the things is that Duncan and Garnett set the bar so high for defensive PF.

I mean, look at the two best power forwards from the previsou generation: Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. Now, I won't say either was bad on defence, but were either of them particularily great? Malone got 4 Defnesive team placements, which is pretty good, but it's not like he was as good as Garnett or Duncan. Barkley was frankly a liability on defence himself, though he got his share of steals and blocks.

Is Boozer that bad? Or Z-Bo? Z-Bo doesn't have the athleticism, but when a guy is posting up on Z-Bo, he holds his own. Griffen has improved this season, as did Love last season. Pau I think is an underrated defender personally.

Others guys are awful. Bargnani comes to mind. But I think part of the reason we see these guys as 'weak' is because they are playing in the same generation as Duncan and Garnett. Those two are perhaps the best defenders in the history of the PF position (which is why many put them ahead of Barkley and Malone despite the fact Barkley and Malone were clearly the better scorers).

And we do have guys like Ibaka and Faired now. Also Josh Smith is a pretty great defender (though he plays both forward spots). And Larry Sanders is coming to his own defensively. And though I havent' seen him play much, I've heard Favorus is a solid defender.

I think part of the reason is because defense is something guys learn as the play in the league. People don't call out Love in his rookie or sophomore season, because the team is bad and is expect to lose. Same with Griffen. But as their teams get better, they get better at defense (normally). So while Griffen and Love may show improved defense, they already have a reputation as being bad defenders, and once you get that rep, it's hard to shake off.

OKC
12-27-2012, 01:09 PM
serge ibaka. nuff said.

Bob Loblaw
12-27-2012, 01:12 PM
wait, Bargnani's a star pf?

kdspurman
12-27-2012, 01:30 PM
serge ibaka. nuff said.

I think Ibaka tends to get overrated as a defender. Shot blocker doesn't always equal a great defender IMO. I think he's a good defender for sure. His blocking ability makes it tough for guys he's defending, I just think he's not on that "shut a player down" level.

kdspurman
12-27-2012, 01:30 PM
I've been saying this for awhile too Crooner. There are no real 2 way PFs in the league anymore in the mold of Malone, young Duncan, young Garnett, etc. You either have starters who play little to no D or defensive specialists with no offense.

What's funny is Duncan and Garnett are still probably better than a lot of the younger guys even at their age. (In terms of 2 way play)

tredigs
12-27-2012, 01:39 PM
What's funny is Duncan and Garnett are still probably better than a lot of the younger guys even at their age. (In terms of 2 way play)

Probably all, actually. And Serge does still have plenty of room to grow on the defensive end (still good to very good), but that guy definitely knows how to grow his game. He's still only 23, he'll get there.

Griffin's young and already improving defensively, Josh Smith is a very good defender, Anthony Davis definitely has huge defensive potential, etc.

They're out there 'Crooner, and I'm not a big fan of your generalized "gets called out" as a reasoning for poor defense.

OKC
12-27-2012, 01:40 PM
I think Ibaka tends to get overrated as a defender. Shot blocker doesn't always equal a great defender IMO. I think he's a good defender for sure. His blocking ability makes it tough for guys he's defending, I just think he's not on that "shut a player down" level.

no he is not.
but he is a great shot blocker and an above average defender in the post.
and he is 23.

kdspurman
12-27-2012, 01:45 PM
Probably all, actually. And Serge does still have plenty of room to grow on the defensive end (still good to very good), but that guy definitely knows how to grow his game. He's still only 23, he'll get there.

Griffin's young and already improving defensively, Josh Smith is a very good defender, Anthony Davis definitely has huge defensive potential, etc.

They're out there 'Crooner, and I'm not a big fan of your generalized "gets called out" as a reasoning for poor defense.

No doubt they're improving and are some out there. I like Davis already when I've seen him play. He seems to have come in with already some knowledge of the fundamentals.

It seems a lot of the young guys come in to the league lacking the at least the fundamentals of post defense, rotations, communication, etc... And it takes some time for them to pick up on it. Some do, some don't.

And I agree about Ibaka. I just feel at times because of the number of blocks he gets, he tends to get overrated on the defensive end. (personally, not a fan of BPG being the reason someone gets DPOY) Not taking away from what he does, but I think he has room to improve. The fact that he seems automatic from mid range now with his jumper shows he has a commitment to improve his game which is always nice to see.

kdspurman
12-27-2012, 01:46 PM
no he is not.
but he is a great shot blocker and an above average defender in the post.
and he is 23.

Most definitely. I think he will only get better

SanAntonioSpurs23
12-27-2012, 01:51 PM
Duncan guards both PF's and Centers.... It really just depends who the opposing teams best offensive threat is.

Duncan has also gone back to playing a lot more PF. Tiago Splitter has really been playing solid, and now that he's starting Duncan has had a legit center next to him. Last time that has happened was probably with Fabricio Oberto in like 2007.

SirSkyHook
12-27-2012, 01:53 PM
I think Ibaka tends to get overrated as a defender. Shot blocker doesn't always equal a great defender IMO. I think he's a good defender for sure. His blocking ability makes it tough for guys he's defending, I just think he's not on that "shut a player down" level.

Ibaka is another Howard. They block and change alot of shots which is great but they dont really shut anyone down man to man imo.

TheNumber37
12-27-2012, 01:53 PM
It's because a lot of the new pfs have shots outside of 15 feet. there away of the basket, so they don't have to guard the post. If they played under 15 feet, we would see who could defend and who can't.

ghettosean
12-27-2012, 01:57 PM
Those aren't stars. Only Noah is but he's a center
Wow Josh Smith isn't a star...

Really?!?

IndyRealist
12-27-2012, 01:58 PM
The pf role has changed in the last 10 years. Truly gifted defensive bigs play center regardless of height (chuck hayes, dwight howard, etc) while bigs who can step out and hit jumpers play pf.

b@llhog24
12-27-2012, 02:54 PM
Because:

Offense>Defense.

Also Taj is a beast on D.

Clippersfan86
12-27-2012, 02:59 PM
Has to do with the game changing as Indy said above, not lack of ability. Bigs aren't being taught anymore to be elite post scorers and defenders. They are more mobile and being taught to shoot jumpers, pass etc.

That being said Ibaka, Smith, Duncan and KG are at the top. Griffin has improved tremendously as a defender and has the same quickness, athleticism to be a Malone type defender. LOL at the couple people to mention Faried. He's an ELITE rebounder but an atrocious defender.

RLundi
12-27-2012, 03:22 PM
Thank you for fixing 'defend' in the thread title. The extra F was making me nauseous.

RLundi
12-27-2012, 03:23 PM
Wow Josh Smith isn't a star...

Really?!?

Lol Josh Smith is not a star.

Beltrans Mole
12-27-2012, 03:30 PM
It's becoming less and less of a big man's game...virtually anyone with a lock down C or PF is at a huge advantage because of how rare it is. That's why guys like Noah and Chandler are so valuable.

TopsyTurvy
12-27-2012, 03:30 PM
As others have alluded to, the game has changed so it simply doesn't look the same. The NBA is no longer a league of inlet pass to a big -> post presence -> baskets.

If the dominant bigs of today banged down low like some of those in the past, I don't think this is even a topic. With many modern bigs relishing the jump shot (and hitting it effectively), it's easy to point at those defending and assuming the defense is piss poor when the reality is it's the shooting from the position that has become more prevalent. (Older dominant forwards also shot extremely well)

Swashcuff
12-27-2012, 04:29 PM
No doubt they're improving and are some out there. I like Davis already when I've seen him play. He seems to have come in with already some knowledge of the fundamentals.

It seems a lot of the young guys come in to the league lacking the at least the fundamentals of post defense, rotations, communication, etc... And it takes some time for them to pick up on it. Some do, some don't.

And I agree about Ibaka. I just feel at times because of the number of blocks he gets, he tends to get overrated on the defensive end. (personally, not a fan of BPG being the reason someone gets DPOY) Not taking away from what he does, but I think he has room to improve. The fact that he seems automatic from mid range now with his jumper shows he has a commitment to improve his game which is always nice to see.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=23630773&postcount=51

Ibaka is actually better individually than most people give him credit for. Its actually the opposite to what you're saying. So many people pay attention to his shot blocking prowess that they don't realize that he's actually coming a long way in the other defensive aspects of his game.

kdspurman
12-27-2012, 04:44 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=23630773&postcount=51

Ibaka is actually better individually than most people give him credit for. Its actually the opposite to what you're saying. So many people pay attention to his shot blocking prowess that they don't realize that he's actually coming a long way in the other defensive aspects of his game.

Thanks for bringing that up. I mean, like I said before I think he's a good defender, but I feel like because he blocks so much he's thought of as this great defender and the BPG stat tends to be deceiving. (although that's all that a lot of folks will look at, especially come DPOY time)

I didn't realize or see those Synergy stats before, so maybe I'm wrong in my assumption. My thing was there didn't seem to be that "shut you down" type of play from him on the defensive end and able to really getting under the skin of the offensive player and throw their game off. But as others have alluded to, he's still very young and will likely only get better.

Another thing is he's improved his mid-range shot so much, I guess it's been hard to notice the improvement on the defensive side. But I'll be sure to watch him a little more on that end, since I've grown to accept he is a legit shooter these days.

Thanks :cheers:

LAKobeBryant
12-27-2012, 05:03 PM
his question is star PF can't defend. and i don't think ibaka is a star

Bornknick73
12-27-2012, 05:18 PM
Blame Mike D'antoni. With his ******** positionless basketball. Its ironic that hes wanted to prove his system can win the title, yet every team is using some form of it and he hasnt won ****.

Ill give him his due, his phoenix teams seem to have changed the game we all love but I dont think its for the better.

The enforcing, rebounding defensive PF disappeared with the introduction of the Stretch 4.

The most disgusting thing about it is they eliminated the C position from the All-star voting. Now theyre all forwards.

Hope youre happy Mike. Its only a matter of time before Kobe turns on you. Dont coach no defense and Kobe will run him out of town for sure.

Swashcuff
12-27-2012, 05:34 PM
his question is star PF can't defend. and i don't think ibaka is a star

That's what happen when you play in the shadow of great guys like KD, Westy and even Harden and now at times Martin. Defense isn't valued as highly in terms of being a star player as offense is but if you want to quantify what makes a star player in terms of value Ibaka is every bit of a star player. Hell if Bargs name is being mentioned in the OP why isn't Ibaka a star he's more valuable than Bargs on both ends of the floor.

TmacBryant
12-27-2012, 05:36 PM
Those aren't stars. Only Noah is but he's a center

I know they have both played Center before but Tim Duncan and KG have been PF's for most of their career if I am not mistaken.

Alayla
12-28-2012, 06:53 PM
did you just call brags a star? lol

Alayla
12-28-2012, 06:55 PM
I know they have both played Center before but Tim Duncan and KG have been PF's for most of their career if I am not mistaken.

KG has and idc what anyone says Duncan has always and will always be a center who was played out of position most of his career.

cleptopot
12-28-2012, 08:11 PM
Lol Josh Smith is not a star.
:facepalm: He's more of a star than Bargnani whose on the list

Chronz
12-28-2012, 10:20 PM
Blake is applying himself very well defensively this year. Hes had to been watching tape on KG.

--23--
12-28-2012, 10:34 PM
:shrug: I don't know, it's different era where the value of defense is not high. And the game style of the NBA today is more offensive orientated. Also maybe PF's today just don't get taught the same way like the PF's of the past.

ShadyOne
12-28-2012, 10:43 PM
Maybe it's just more difficult for big men to defend these days?

Not that it wasn't always hard, but as the years go on, the bigs get more and more athletic. Was a lot more guys who played back-to-the-basket. Now, more often than not, even the bigger players plat face-up, and like shooting from the outside.

Also attribute some to players just not caring about D, or just not wanting to put in the 100% effort and determination, and not having the desire to be a top level defensive player. The guys who were/are great on D just have that pride, get fired up by not allowing you to score on them. Can't teach that..

c.c.
12-29-2012, 05:54 AM
Anthony Davis going to be good on the defensive end

TornadoOfSouls
12-29-2012, 08:42 AM
KG has and idc what anyone says Duncan has always and will always be a center who was played out of position most of his career.

Spurs are starting Tiago Splitter next to Duncan right now. Are you really going to tell me that Tiago is a PF when he has NO midrange game and entirely operates in the post?

Or that DROb is a PF? Or that Rasho Nesterovic is anything but a center? Or how about Nazr Mohammed? These are the bigs that have started next to Duncan.

I always find it funny when people can't grasp the notion that the NBA is full of tweeners that can play multiple positions - this is especially apparent with bigs like Duncan, Pau, and even Dirk.

Jesse2272
12-29-2012, 08:47 AM
I miss charles oakley

2way no D stalwart yes but we did have ewing

Bornknick73
12-29-2012, 10:56 AM
:shrug: I don't know, it's different era where the value of defense is not high. And the game style of the NBA today is more offensive orientated. Also maybe PF's today just don't get taught the same way like the PF's of the past.


Ironic seeing as the last 20 NBA champions had a average defensive rating of 5th.

So while the trend is entertaining it wont win the title. I guess thats why the same teams win the championship all the time.

Mr_Amaziing
12-29-2012, 11:15 AM
Serge Ibaka

But he's only gonna get better