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JNoel
12-26-2012, 11:05 PM
No longer Dwight?

bucketss
12-26-2012, 11:06 PM
if its not dwight who the hell else is it?

Avenged
12-26-2012, 11:10 PM
why not?

JNoel
12-26-2012, 11:11 PM
Bynum?

DanG
12-26-2012, 11:15 PM
still dwight.

knicks=love
12-26-2012, 11:16 PM
kurt thomas

MetroMan
12-26-2012, 11:17 PM
why not?

Because Op is a heat fan

tripleplay2007
12-26-2012, 11:18 PM
Still Dwight followed by Tyson Chandler.

Chacarron
12-26-2012, 11:19 PM
Robert Sacre > Dwight Howard

RonE Coleman
12-26-2012, 11:19 PM
Marc Gasol maybe? :hide:

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-26-2012, 11:21 PM
No longer Dwight?


:facepalm:

JOhnnyTHaJet
12-26-2012, 11:22 PM
Kwame Brown.

h2r09
12-26-2012, 11:34 PM
Joel. Biggest difference maker in the NBA, possibly the world.

eso
12-26-2012, 11:35 PM
The answer is Dwight and he isnt even healthy yet..

Hawkeye15
12-26-2012, 11:36 PM
D12

JNoel
12-26-2012, 11:37 PM
I wanted to see if someone would come up with an argument against it but nothing so far.

bucketss
12-26-2012, 11:43 PM
Bynum?

:facepalm:

b@llhog24
12-26-2012, 11:45 PM
Marc has played the best at the C position this year.

Beltrans Mole
12-26-2012, 11:57 PM
Dwights a ***** though

Teeboy1487
12-27-2012, 12:05 AM
Stupid thread. It's not even close. Dwight by far.

BleedingGreen9
12-27-2012, 12:25 AM
Marc has played the best at the C position this year.

Marc isnt even top 10

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-27-2012, 12:31 AM
unfortunately theres noone else good enough to dethrone him. so no, he still is the best c in the game.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-27-2012, 12:32 AM
Marc has played the best at the C position this year.

hmm hopefully he can turn some heads after this season so people can show him some love.

bucketss
12-27-2012, 12:34 AM
Marc isnt even top 10

marc gasol isn't a top ten center? would love to see ten centers you think are better.

BleedingGreen9
12-27-2012, 12:37 AM
marc gasol isn't a top ten center? would love to see ten centers you think are better.

D12
Anderson Varejao
Al Jefferson
Joakim Noah
Tyson Chandler
Greg Monroe
Al Horford
Brook Lopez
Nikola Pekovic
Omer Asik
J.J. Hickson

All having much better seasons then marc

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-27-2012, 12:38 AM
D12
Anderson Varejao
Al Jefferson
Joakim Noah
Tyson Chandler
Greg Monroe
Al Horford
Brook Lopez
Nikola Pekovic
Omer Asik
J.J. Hickson

All having much better seasons then marc

lol no

BleedingGreen9
12-27-2012, 12:39 AM
yes^

barreleffact
12-27-2012, 12:42 AM
Dwight has played rather mediocre for his standards. IDK who has been the best thus far. From the games I have seen (few), his touch does not seem to be there in the post. He has not been demanding during pick and rolls for easy dunks. He has differred a lot and has not anchored the defense. They allowed 19 offensive rebounds today to Denver. Thats a testiment to lack of effort from both he and Gasol, especially considering Hill came in and got 9 boards in 13 minutes. Dwight will likely regain his game and composure, but thus far, it is not a far reach to say he has not been the best center.

Greedy22
12-27-2012, 12:43 AM
D12
Anderson Varejao
Al Jefferson
Joakim Noah
Tyson Chandler
Greg Monroe
Al Horford
Brook Lopez
Nikola Pekovic
Omer Asik
J.J. Hickson

All having much better seasons then marc


:laugh:
:laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

tr3ymill3r
12-27-2012, 12:49 AM
Omer Asik

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-27-2012, 12:49 AM
Marc Gasol- 15/9/4 | Ws/48- .224 | 20 PER | TS%- 57.1%

not gonna post the other ridiculous players you posted so im going to only post howard's stats.

D12- 18/12/2 | Ws/48- .148 | 20.5 PER | TS%- 57.7%

i rest my case.

so, NO.

Andrew32
12-27-2012, 12:52 AM
I'm takin Bynum at this point.

Greedy22
12-27-2012, 12:53 AM
Marc Gasol- 15/9/4 | Ws/48- .224 | 20 PER | TS%- 57.1%

not gonna post the other ridiculous players you posted so im going to only post howard's stats.

D12- 18/12/2 | Ws/48- .148 | 20.5 PER | TS%- 57.7%

i rest my case.

so, NO.

He's actually been better than D12 thus far, idk what that dude is smoking. b@llhog24 was right.

BleedingGreen9
12-27-2012, 12:54 AM
Marc Gasol- 15/9/4 | Ws/48- .224 | 20 PER | TS%- 57.1%

not gonna post the other ridiculous players you posted so im going to only post howard's stats.

D12- 18/12/2 | Ws/48- .148 | 20.5 PER | TS%- 57.7%

i rest my case.

so, NO.

i dont know where ur getting 15/9/4 bc its 14/7/3

PleaseBeNice
12-27-2012, 12:55 AM
noah

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-27-2012, 12:58 AM
i dont know where ur getting 15/9/4 bc its 14/7/3

14.5 points rounded off = 15.
7.6 rebounds rounded off = 8 (typed 9 by mistake)
3.9 assists rounded off = 4.

..weird how you said nothing about howards stats rounded off..
clearly youre arguing for the hell of it like a child, conversation over.

:cool:

BleedingGreen9
12-27-2012, 01:01 AM
14.5 points rounded off = 15.
7.6 rebounds rounded off = 8 (typed 9 by mistake)
3.9 assists rounded off = 4.

..weird how you said nothing about howards stats rounded off..
clearly youre arguing for the hell of it like a child, conversation over.

:cool:

kk:)

More-Than-Most
12-27-2012, 01:09 AM
Howard


Bynum









Everyone else

tredigs
12-27-2012, 01:25 AM
14.5 points rounded off = 15.
7.6 rebounds rounded off = 8 (typed 9 by mistake)
3.9 assists rounded off = 4.

..weird how you said nothing about howards stats rounded off..
clearly youre arguing for the hell of it like a child, conversation over.

:cool:

As of today 14.7, 7.7, 4.1. So yeah, 15/8/4, PER > 20, WS/48 at .224 is 5th in the league, and his RAPM (Regulated Adjusated Plus/minus... really good stat) is 10th in the league (right above Dwight actually).

The guy saying he's not a top 10 center has not seen a Grizz game and/or doesn't know how to break down stats.

tredigs
12-27-2012, 01:30 AM
Gotta love that Marc's a 7 foot+ center who plays elite D, scores efficiently (the guy is nearly 50% from the field, and more importantly 88% from the line. No Hack A Marc that's fsho), and he can pass. 18/8/8 on efficiency tonight. Great, great player.

I would say he's been better than Dwight this season. You could make the same argument for Tyson Chandler. When, or if Dwight Howard returns to his past form he would take the lead as top center by a clear enough margin. Right now it's actually a debate for this season.

RonE Coleman
12-27-2012, 01:32 AM
Marc isnt even top 10

LMAO fail

Hellcrooner
12-27-2012, 02:21 AM
Dwight is the best even not being 100%.


Marc is the second best hands down, Bynum having played 0 minutes makes the claim easier to sustain ( altough i would sustain it even with bynum and his me first 0 care for the team playing).


As for Marc not being top 10....................what are we facing here? Stupidity? Xenophobia? or Both?

b@llhog24
12-27-2012, 02:33 AM
Marc isnt even top 10

Your stupidity is showing.


He's actually been better than D12 thus far, idk what that dude is smoking. b@llhog24 was right.

:nod:

beliges
12-27-2012, 02:35 AM
Dwight certainly has been disappointing so far this season. Definitely not the best center in the league right now.

DeyAce
12-27-2012, 02:46 AM
Omerica

TheMoneyTeam
12-27-2012, 02:52 AM
70% Howard>>>> Any NBA Center.

THE MTL
12-27-2012, 03:15 AM
Iono who is it but it definitely aint Dwight Howard.

THE MTL
12-27-2012, 03:16 AM
70% Howard>>>> Any NBA Center.

Hell no. Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and Andrew Bynum all beg to differ when it comes to a 70% Dwight Howard

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-27-2012, 03:17 AM
Hell no. Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and Andrew Bynum all beg to differ when it comes to a 70% Dwight Howard

Andrew Bynum is at 0% FYI.

cmellofan15
12-27-2012, 03:19 AM
Javale.

Look at that efficiency.

Greedy22
12-27-2012, 03:29 AM
Hell no. Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and Andrew Bynum all beg to differ when it comes to a 70% Dwight Howard

Andrew Bynum is at 0% FYI.
:laugh2:

Greedy22
12-27-2012, 03:30 AM
70% Howard>>>> Any NBA Center.

Hell no. Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and Andrew Bynum all beg to differ when it comes to a 70% Dwight Howard
He's been better than all of them except Marc, it's not a crazy statement.

Lakers + Giants
12-27-2012, 04:13 AM
Dwight. Not because he's THAT good but because everyone else is that bad. If bynum were playing and playing like he did last year he would be #1, honestly.

Over Da Pence
12-27-2012, 04:17 AM
BOGUT!!!! is ready to take the thrown!! Take a seat Dwight!! :clap:

TheMoneyTeam
12-27-2012, 04:26 AM
Hell no. Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and Andrew Bynum all beg to differ when it comes to a 70% Dwight Howard

You know what they say, "Beggars can't be choosers."

c.c.
12-27-2012, 04:28 AM
Noah duh!

bigmac8675
12-27-2012, 05:08 AM
Andris Biedrins... dude had 12 rebounds tonight!! LOL

But seriously... even with Dwight having an "off year" so far he is still the best.

Patman
12-27-2012, 05:28 AM
Marc Gasol- 15/9/4 | Ws/48- .224 | 20 PER | TS%- 57.1%

not gonna post the other ridiculous players you posted so im going to only post howard's stats.

D12- 18/12/2 | Ws/48- .148 | 20.5 PER | TS%- 57.7%

i rest my case.

so, NO.

Since Duncan is now considered a C i add him to the mix

Timmy - 17/10/3/ | Ws/48 - .222 | 25 PER | TS%- 54.9%

BullsFTW
12-27-2012, 05:31 AM
When healthy...

1. Dwight
2. Bynum
3. M. Gasol
4. Noah
5. Chandler

YoungOne
12-27-2012, 05:48 AM
D12
Anderson Varejao
Al Jefferson
Joakim Noah
Tyson Chandler
Greg Monroe
Al Horford
Brook Lopez
Nikola Pekovic
Omer Asik
J.J. Hickson

All having much better seasons then marc

thats bs :D

--23--
12-27-2012, 07:36 AM
Marc isnt even top 10


D12
Anderson Varejao
Al Jefferson
Joakim Noah
Tyson Chandler
Greg Monroe
Al Horford
Brook Lopez
Nikola Pekovic
Omer Asik
J.J. Hickson

All having much better seasons then marc

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/images/smilies/graemlins/spit.gif :laugh:

LBJ6
12-27-2012, 07:45 AM
Joel Anthony!

shep33
12-27-2012, 08:04 AM
I recently read a report saying how Dwight isn't really close to being 100% yet. His legs and feet go numb at times because his back isn't fully healed. You can see his explosiveness is not there yet, he shows it at times, but not consistently like he used to every night in Orlando.

Lets remember that he was suppose to come back in January.

RyanStorm
12-27-2012, 08:53 AM
After seeing Dwight's performance in the win over Knicks....I have to say that Dwight is easily the best.

The only person who I would debate is Chris Bosh! Then if there is no clear winner, maybe Duncan and/or Griffen.

Bosh won a championship last year, and his team is doing great with a repeat title in the picture.
Griffen is putting up the same numbers as Bosh, and is also getting his team wins. He is just lacking with 8.8 rpg, .068 bpg, but has 3.2 apg, and 1.54 spg.

However, I can't deny that Dwight just has the best overall package. I mean he can assit(2), steal(1), block(2.5), and then Score(17.5) and Rebound(12)(and his stats are sitting right on his career average). Hell he is the a 1st pick in the first round! His defense is amazing, and with Kobe, Nash and Gasol, he is on a dream team.

The only other person I can say this for is Bosh. Who has 17pts, 7.6 rpg, 1.6 apg, and 1.24 bpg. This is much less, and the two most important categories Rebounds and Blocks are way down(but he is on a dream team). Tim Duncan is the only one near his stats, with 17ppg, 10 rpg and 2.5 bpg(but his team is old and a dying dynasty).

Gasol, well I don't know. He use to be the best Center when Lakers were winning championships. Now they got Dwight, so I would consider having Gasol run the 2nd squad and be the leader of the bench! That way Lakers could have the best Starters, and the best bench(with Gasol and Metta)

My vote goes to Dwight, because there is no one else who clearly takes away his title. Pretty much every team would gladly replace their center for him, even LAC, Heat and New York.

RyanStorm
12-27-2012, 09:06 AM
As for best bench Center. My vote goes to Utah's Kanter(with >1 years pro)

Last night against GS, he put up 10 points(4-4) and 2-4 FT, with 3 rebounds in 18 minutes.
On occasion he scores 19, 23, 18 and generally has 10 points a night but has several nights with limited time and got 2-8 pts in 10-14 minutes. His biggest numbers are when facing OKC and LAL, and got double-doubles twice, with several times getting over 10 rebounds.

All of this with an average of 14-16 minutes per game. I am sure in a couple years he will become a great player because he is tough and can muscle in points in the paint. He just lacks the maturity and minutes that these starter Centers have.

PHX2daDEATH
12-27-2012, 09:07 AM
i'm a hollinger man..Dwight has ten guys ahead of him in PER..just saying he needs to start dominating shh like he should..

ManRam
12-27-2012, 10:46 AM
Dwight still is. He isn't playing like the best right now, but he still is. He's still got some work to do til he gets back to being 100%

But is isn't by as large of a margin as it had long been perceived.

Seizabmc
12-28-2012, 08:13 AM
Tyson chandler by far hes been beasting lately playing at an all star level he is the heart and soul of the knicks and a main reason why the knicks are a top 5 team in the league # 2 in the east so Id have to say him

SugeKnight
12-28-2012, 08:28 AM
It's Festus Ezeli and it's not even close

HowFit
12-28-2012, 09:33 AM
Dwight. Not because he's THAT good but because everyone else is that bad. If bynum were playing and playing like he did last year he would be #1, honestly.

True and sadly to say, NBA lacking centers these days...

ZHawk1123
12-28-2012, 09:47 AM
Iman Shumpert and it's not close

allSUAVE
12-28-2012, 10:14 AM
Nikola pekovic and Marc gasol i would take over dwight right now

Alayla
12-28-2012, 10:32 AM
So far this season? Id say Duncan but only becuase Howard isnt 100%

BaddNewz
12-28-2012, 10:39 AM
Dwight.

But for the arguments sake I would take Marc Gasol over Howard. He is a headache for big men. Can post, pass, a solid 16 ft jumper, a big body, disappears on the boards from time to time but only because Randolph is a beast on the boards.

2-ONE-5
12-28-2012, 11:25 AM
at the moment no its not Howard. But that you dont lose that distinction 25 games into a season, he has been the best the past 5 years

Money_23
12-28-2012, 11:42 AM
sadly it's Dwight. Just shows you the lack of competent bigs nowadays.

Everymanalion
12-28-2012, 12:34 PM
Best overall center right now? Tyson C.

Who I want to be the best center? DMC.

Sly Guy
12-28-2012, 12:38 PM
it's dwight still, but that being said, I'd still take a lower maintenance chandler on my team over him.

beliges
12-28-2012, 12:49 PM
it's dwight still, but that being said, I'd still take a lower maintenance chandler on my team over him.

Dwight has no offensive game whatsoever. On top of that his rebounding and D have taken a hit so far this year. Certainly he's not the best C in the game right now.

Sly Guy
12-28-2012, 12:55 PM
Dwight has no offensive game whatsoever. On top of that his rebounding and D have taken a hit so far this year. Certainly he's not the best C in the game right now.

I'm well aware of his stats, but I'm also aware of what he's capable of. I've seen him change games because he takes away any and all layups in the paint, and clearing the glass removing all second chance point opportunities. I have not seen anybody else do this, and that makes him best in my view. He gets a free pass because his team has all been on the court for a total of 5 games this year, and it's a new team for many key elements, so in my view, they haven't had adequate time to gel.

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 01:19 PM
I want to throw this out there, but what about Utah's big man Al Jefferson? Some say he has the best foot work.

I mean he is Utah's top scorer, highest re-bounder, big blocker and overall court leader. How many teams can say that about their C! Not to mention he plays good defense and has 15 double-doubles(like top 6 in that category). He is in the top 5-10 in every other category against the entire NBA, when it comes to being a Center in terms of stats(RPG, PPG, FT%, ext)(except blocks, Favors is our big blocker).

I just think Jefferson is under-rated. Dwight puts up similar numbers, but he isn't as big of leader as Al!

bucketss
12-28-2012, 01:22 PM
Dwight has no offensive game whatsoever. On top of that his rebounding and D have taken a hit so far this year. Certainly he's not the best C in the game right now.

so why the hell is he doubled teamed in the post than?

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 01:26 PM
Did I mention that Al is the 3rd best Free Thrower at Center Position. I checked stats, by filtering everyone except Centers, and Jefferson is generally in the top 5 in all categories! Blocks are the only thing he doesn't have, but I want to nominate him for best Center.

I think Marc Gasol and Al Jefferson are the Centers being downplayed. They both are putting up as great numbers as Dwight. I think Al is one of the best overall players at Center.

NetsPaint
12-28-2012, 01:31 PM
Chandler has won the majority of games against Howard at least the last few games.

It's weird, Howard may be the first center everybody would sign (player wise, not putting into account his immaturity and trust if he'll stay on the team) if starting a team, but many people including myself would rather have Chandler.

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2012, 01:38 PM
Dwight Howard.

it would take 2 Chandlers to equal a Howard...

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-28-2012, 01:40 PM
Dwight Howard.

it would take 2 Chandlers to equal a Howard...

^

knicksballers
12-28-2012, 01:50 PM
tyson chandler

effen5
12-28-2012, 01:54 PM
Noah

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 02:04 PM
People are actually seriously saying anyone other than Dwight?

:laugh2:

You guys are a piece of work. Replace any of those players with Dwight. How much better do their team's get? They get a better offensive player, a better defensive player and a proven winner as his team's best player. Seriously guys stop the hating like it or not Dwight is better than your guy. I'm a 76ers fan and he's better than Bynum who by the way is also better than your guy.

SpeedyRecovery
12-28-2012, 02:22 PM
why don't we ask shaq!? lol.. i think he would like just about anybody rather then dwight.
i always really liked boguts game, but he's been injured so long it's hard to consider him.

beliges
12-28-2012, 05:37 PM
Dwight has no offensive game whatsoever. On top of that his rebounding and D have taken a hit so far this year. Certainly he's not the best C in the game right now.

so why the hell is he doubled teamed in the post than?

Dwight's been getting double teamed? Really? Not sure if you've been watching many Lakers games but Dwight either gets stripped or gets fouled much more than he gets double teamed. I believe he is leading centers in TOs. One thing is clear, he's not what he was the last few years and he's been a major disappointment in living up to the Lakers demand of greatness. While that may change in the future, he's been a let down so far.

LASportsFan1996
12-28-2012, 05:57 PM
Ban time

nickdymez
12-28-2012, 06:13 PM
Dwight still is. But he is not playing like it right now. Right now the best center is Noah...

RonE Coleman
12-28-2012, 06:17 PM
People are actually seriously saying anyone other than Dwight?

:laugh2:

You guys are a piece of work. Replace any of those players with Dwight. How much better do their team's get? They get a better offensive player, a better defensive player and a proven winner as his team's best player. Seriously guys stop the hating like it or not Dwight is better than your guy. I'm a 76ers fan and he's better than Bynum who by the way is also better than your guy.

Yawn, let me know when Dwight can be counted on late in games to hit free throws or make a go to basket. Gimme Marc Gasol at the moment, at least he can be on the floor to end games.

Jesse2272
12-28-2012, 06:18 PM
Dwight still is. But he is not playing like it right now. Right now the best center is Noah...

Dwights frustration is affecting his game

his ft's is horrid but that didnt stop the diesel

his immaturity is showing did he think going to brooklyn would mean he would be the man and not share the spotlight with dwill

hopefully for him he learns and grows

not like his career is in the the rearview

Greedy22
12-28-2012, 06:21 PM
Chandler has won the majority of games against Howard at least the last few games.

It's weird, Howard may be the first center everybody would sign (player wise, not putting into account his immaturity and trust if he'll stay on the team) if starting a team, but many people including myself would rather have Chandler.
No they wouldn't, the majority would take Howard. This is silly.

Greedy22
12-28-2012, 06:22 PM
Dwight still is. But he is not playing like it right now. Right now the best center is Noah...

Dwights frustration is affecting his game

his ft's is horrid but that didnt stop the diesel

his immaturity is showing did he think going to brooklyn would mean he would be the man and not share the spotlight with dwill

hopefully for him he learns and grows

not like his career is in the the rearview
Definitely agree with this, but the spotlight would definitely be his in Brooklyn. DWill has been terrible and can't be counted on to be the guy.

nickdymez
12-28-2012, 06:25 PM
Dwights frustration is affecting his game

his ft's is horrid but that didnt stop the diesel

his immaturity is showing did he think going to brooklyn would mean he would be the man and not share the spotlight with dwill

hopefully for him he learns and grows

not like his career is in the the rearview

Yea, im really starting to question his leadership ability right now. If Kobe is going to "pass the torch" to Howard, its not looking like that torch will stay lit to long. Howard seems to have emotional problems. He doesnt seem to like the fact that he is on a team where there are other stars/personalities that are just as big as his. He has to get over that and play ball. Plus i think he is still kinda hurting.

RonE Coleman
12-28-2012, 06:27 PM
Dwight is just an upgraded younger version of Tyson in the talent department.

Better defender and rebounder but not by the insane margins some people seem to think. Neither can score on there own but at least Tyson can hit his free throws.

Dwight is also very immature while Tyson is the opposite and at least a solid leader. Of course I would rather have Dwight because he is younger but he is also one of the most overrated players in the NBA.

With that said, if I had to build a team around a Center I'm taking Marc Gasol all day every day.

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 06:28 PM
Everything everyone just complained about Dwight, is what Jefferson doesn't lack in. Jefferson is a way better overall player, and only really lacks in Blocks. Besides for that he is equal to Dwight in everything he is good at, but is better at all the things Dwight sucks at.

I don't care what that 76'er fan says, I would keep Jefferson over Dwight!

Il Mago50
12-28-2012, 06:35 PM
I really don't like what I see from Dwight right now, I said he wouldn't be the same player without his athleticism so hopefully he gets it back at some point.

If Bynum was healthy then it would be him but since he isn't he can't be in the conversation.

The center position is a ****show right now plain and simple, I don't like Dwight but I think he's the winner by default because guys like KG, Marc and others aren't good enough to be the top center in the league.

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 06:39 PM
So is anyone gonna agree or disagree with Al Jefferson??

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 06:45 PM
Yawn, let me know when Dwight can be counted on late in games to hit free throws or make a go to basket. Gimme Marc Gasol at the moment, at least he can be on the floor to end games.

When Marc Gasol and Tyson Chandler leads their teams to the NBA finals as their teams hands down best player on both ends of the floor you'll let me know okay.

Also there are two sides of the floor in basketball. Dwight is one of the most clutch defensive big men there is.

Both the Grizzlies and the Knicks would be better teams with Howard. Remember the last time Howard played on the best 3 point shooting team in the league what happened? They went to the Finals.

WhiteSoxGod
12-28-2012, 06:49 PM
Omer Asik :D

RonE Coleman
12-28-2012, 06:52 PM
When Marc Gasol and Tyson Chandler leads their teams to the NBA finals as their teams hands down best player on both ends of the floor you'll let me know okay.

Also there are two sides of the floor in basketball. Dwight is one of the most clutch defensive big men there is.

Both the Grizzlies and the Knicks would be better teams with Howard. Remember the last time Howard played on the best 3 point shooting team in the league what happened? They went to the Finals.

Cool story, where is the relevance? That was 4 years ago, what does that mean today? Right now, Marc Gasol is a better Center than Dwight.

Dwight also has not gotten any better since he got smacked around in the Finals by the Lakers. We still haven't mentioned that the Magic roster was tailor made with 3 point shooters who were hot in the playoffs.

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 06:53 PM
So is anyone gonna agree or disagree with Al Jefferson??

What about him? He isn't top 10 defensively and in terms of production (not footwork) not top 5 offensively. Do you think he's in the running for being the best C?

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 06:59 PM
Cool story, where is the relevance? That was 4 years ago, what does that mean today? Right now, Marc Gasol is a better Center than Dwight.

Dwight also has not gotten any better since he got smacked around in the Finals by the Lakers. We still haven't mentioned that the Magic roster was tailor made with 3 point shooters who were hot in the playoffs.

That Magic roster also didn't have any other solid defensive players outside of Dwight and Q Rich but still managed to be the best defensive team in the game. Dwight is better defensively than Marc and offensively. You're comparing an injured Howard learning a new system with king chucker himself not giving him a shot at growing while having very few plays ran for him.

What happens when Dwight gets his footing and start dominating the league as he usually does. Does he miraculously become a better player than Marc again because according to your reasoning (poor FT shooting) he will never be better than Marc.

All you guys do is live in the moment and when a player falls back down to earth or starts to play as per his norm you shut up and disappear.

Tell me something who is better OJ Mayo or Dwyane Wade? I can surely bet 3 weeks ago your answer would be Mayo and two months from now the answer to this question would be Dwight without a shadow of a doubt unless Bynum comes back and is better than he has ever been.

RonE Coleman
12-28-2012, 07:07 PM
That Magic roster also didn't have any other solid defensive players outside of Dwight and Q Rich but still managed to be the best defensive team in the game. Dwight is better defensively than Marc and offensively. You're comparing an injured Howard learning a new system with king chucker himself not giving him a shot at growing while having very few plays ran for him.

What happens when Dwight gets his footing and start dominating the league as he usually does. Does he miraculously become a better player than Marc again because according to your reasoning (poor FT shooting) he will never be better than Marc.

All you guys do is live in the moment and when a player falls back down to earth or starts to play as per his norm you shut up and disappear.

Tell me something who is better OJ Mayo or Dwyane Wade? I can surely bet 3 weeks ago your answer would be Mayo and two months from now the answer to this question would be Dwight without a shadow of a doubt unless Bynum comes back and is better than he has ever been.

Living in the past much? And there is no way Dwight is better offensively than Marc, you can think what You'd like but like I said Right Now Marc is better than Dwight. I shut up and disappear? Wtf are you talking about, I would love to see you prove that. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong but this is not one of those times.

I never said anything about OJ Mayo though Smartass, Nice try though.
And everything I said about Wade is true, he will be an average player in 2-3 years when he has no athleticism and still can't hit a jumpshot or 3 point shot unless he seriously works on his game.

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 07:08 PM
What about him? He isn't top 10 defensively and in terms of production (not footwork) not top 5 offensively. Do you think he's in the running for being the best C?

Stats Based of all Centers:
Al Jefferson: #18 in Fouls, #32 in TO
Dwight: #2 in Fouls, #1 in TO

Al: FT .842
Dwight: FT .512

Al Jefferson is the best player on our team. He averages a double-double, and is only slighty right behind Dwight in the major categories. Defensively I would have to say Al is better in terms of saying which Center is making there team get stops.
I have checked every stat and Dwight does not "out due" him in any category. As far as watching them and reading what I can, I have to say the things people complain about in Dwights work, is stuff that Al doesn't lack in.

Al is consistant every night, and is the only Jazz Man who is, next to Mo and Paul. I would find it crazy if Al wasn't even considered. I mean the only person who puts up as better stats as him across all categories is Dwight, but when it comes to some of the other things like fouls, turn overs, and FT% Al is better.

Yeah dwight has put up more free throw(which translates to the fact he draws the foul more, but at least I can count on Al to makes his in clutch time(FT win games).

I honestly wouldn't want him on Utah over Big Al. I can't speak for any other team, but I am sure Al Jefferson is just as great as player as Dwight for other teams. He might not be as popular, but being a great player doesn't mean you have to be popular.

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 07:23 PM
You can check them yourself, Points Per Game, Rebounds, Assists, Steals, Effieceny, Fantasy Rating, 3pt, How many Double Doubles, Blocks, and steals, if you check Al is up there right next to Dwight, and if you sort out everyone but Centers, there is one name that you will find next to Dwight's and its Big Al all across the board(except when it comes to bad things, like fouls, and turn overs(which are a big deal to me).

The only thing he has that is worth noting is the amount of fouls that he draws. Shooting 289 FT to Al's 76. Dwight making 148, while Al has made 64. This doesn't translate into much points per game for dwight, because he doesn't make his free throws like Al.

Points Per Game, I guess could be disputed.

Al is shooting more, and has made more points than Dwight. Dwight is just making more per game because of the extra points he gets from Free throws, which amounts to just over 1 more point a game than Al.

My own opinion based off what I have seen in Dwight so far, is that Al is the more consistent and "better"/mature player out there, in terms of his overall game. I mean turning over 94 times, instead of 37 of Al's. Dwight has 108 personal fouls and was ejected, while Al has 76 and hasn't been ejected.

These stats almost tell you there story so far, and I have seen enough to say that Al should be #1 and if not, then he should get the #2 place trophy!

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 07:34 PM
If it weren't for this Foul, TO and his terrible FT shooting, he could become the next SHAQ!

I mean he is drawing the fouls, and getting himself easy shots. The only problem with this, is he isn't making that many FT. Al has great feet work to open space to shoot, and to work the paint. The only difference is that Al goes for the shot each time, while Dwight goes to draw the foul.

I mean they both are getting doubles like crazy, and Dwight is getting 1.5 more blocks per game which does make up for his TO's. I think Dwight averages out to be a great player. I just think Al's game isn't getting any respect, when he is obviously of the same caliber. Dwight is getting more minutes that do give him the advantage, but those extra minutes might be wearing him out. At least Utah has backup big men who can keep up with Al's work.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2012, 07:36 PM
Its Dwight, though he isn't playing like the best center right now. But I for one don't just drop a guy after being the top center in the league for years because of a slow start. Just like it took me 2 years to drop Deron from 2-3rd best PG to outside the top 8.

Need a bigger sample size before I throw someone ahead of Dwight.

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 07:36 PM
Stats Based of all Centers:
Al Jefferson: #18 in Fouls, #32 in TO
Dwight: #2 in Fouls, #1 in TO

Al: FT .842
Dwight: FT .512

Al Jefferson is the best player on our team. He averages a double-double, and is only slighty right behind Dwight in the major categories. Defensively I would have to say Al is better in terms of saying which Center is making there team get stops.
I have checked every stat and Dwight does not "out due" him in any category. As far as watching them and reading what I can, I have to say the things people complain about in Dwights work, is stuff that Al doesn't lack in.

Al is consistant every night, and is the only Jazz Man who is, next to Mo and Paul. I would find it crazy if Al wasn't even considered. I mean the only person who puts up as better stats as him across all categories is Dwight, but when it comes to some of the other things like fouls, turn overs, and FT% Al is better.

Yeah dwight has put up more free throw(which translates to the fact he draws the foul more, but at least I can count on Al to makes his in clutch time(FT win games).

I honestly wouldn't want him on Utah over Big Al. I can't speak for any other team, but I am sure Al Jefferson is just as great as player as Dwight for other teams. He might not be as popular, but being a great player doesn't mean you have to be popular.

Would you like me to give you a lesson in stats or would you like to stay believe Al Jefferson is better?

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 07:39 PM
Would you like me to give you a lesson in stats or would you like to stay believe Al Jefferson is better?

I am only using stats because your not gonna listen to me even if I try to tell you of the great things Al does on the floor. I mean you look at stats and still blow me off like I have no idea what I am talking about.

I have seen Dwight play, he fouls a lot on the defensive side, and loses the ball. Besides for one game, Al has been a great player who leads this team. How many C's can you say lead a team.

If it weren't for your turn around, I would bring up the fact that Al is winning us games. Just watch Utah beat LAC tonight, and tell me Al sucks, and doesn't even deserve the 2nd or 3rd place trophy!

Jesse2272
12-28-2012, 07:52 PM
Hey Swash/Hawk

I promise ill read through the entire thread tomorrow

whats your thoughts on Tyson now, today, not just adv stats alone cuz I know you have some games in your bag as well...

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 07:52 PM
Living in the past much? And there is no way Dwight is better offensively than Marc, you can think what You'd like but like I said Right Now Marc is better than Dwight. I shut up and disappear? Wtf are you talking about, I would love to see you prove that. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong but this is not one of those times.

I never said anything about OJ Mayo though Smartass, Nice try though.
And everything I said about Wade is true, he will be an average player in 2-3 years when he has no athleticism and still can't hit a jumpshot or 3 point shot unless he seriously works on his game.

Living in the past has been way better than those who live in the moment. Those of us who actually understand what a player's worth is based on his trend of play throughout his career are actually able to rate a player accurately.

How can I say Dwight is better offensively than Marc? He's more productive plain and simple no ifs ands buts or maybes about it.

Dwight faces more defensive attention on a nightly basis than Marc Gasol but yet still scores more PPG while shooting more efficiently from the floor and overall even despite his poor FT shooting.


PPG TS%
Dwight 17.5 57.7
Marc 14.6 57.2

And don't even say its because of Gasol shooting less because they both attempt 10.8 shots per game. Howard scores 3 points more on basically the same amount of minutes and the same number of FG attempts. Difference is that Dwight is better at getting to the line than any other C in the league. Are you going to hold that against him? Because that's about the only reason Harden is right now better than Dwayne Wade offensively.

bbcmillionaire
12-28-2012, 08:06 PM
lol dwight and its everybody else

and who the hell said dwight followed by chandler? I'd take horford, noah, marc gasol all over him right now. And no dont throw any stats like 75% fg because thats inflated due to lobs. He has no offense, his defense and rebounding is the only thing that put him in MAYBE a top 5 center conversation atm.

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 08:12 PM
I haven't seen much of Marc, but he is still a force that helps Memphis win. I mean could you credit Memphis for all those wins with out Marc? I mean this is where PPG don't matter. Cause even guys like Dwight and Kobe can be #1 in stats yet be a losing team!

It just gets complicated when you try and take everything into consideration. Marc is winning and his system works. Dwight is on a team who's system is not totally figured out quite yet.

I mean can you logically tell me how Marc puts up smaller numbers, and wins games, while Dwight puts up better numbers with Kobe being #1 in points and still lose? I mean Gay is making way less points than Kobe.

I think the thing to consider, when comparing guys in the middle of the season, is to look at the games they have played, by checking their schedule and seeing what big teams they faced and see what the season looks like in the future. I just plain think LA is losing because the system is not in place. Nash is back, so its gonna change quick. While Memphis has a head start its still early.

JWO35
12-28-2012, 08:16 PM
Joel Anthony

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 08:24 PM
But I wouldn't say Marc is the best. I honestly think the 5 guys who should be discussed in the best Center is:

1-Dwight
2-Marc
3-Jefferson
4-Duncan
5-Cousins?/Chandler?/Bogut?

You should have made a poll, cause if everyone named their top 5, then it would be easier to see who pops up.

RonE Coleman
12-28-2012, 08:29 PM
Living in the past has been way better than those who live in the moment. Those of us who actually understand what a player's worth is based on his trend of play throughout his career are actually able to rate a player accurately.

How can I say Dwight is better offensively than Marc? He's more productive plain and simple no ifs ands buts or maybes about it.

Dwight faces more defensive attention on a nightly basis than Marc Gasol but yet still scores more PPG while shooting more efficiently from the floor and overall even despite his poor FT shooting.


PPG TS%
Dwight 17.5 57.7
Marc 14.6 57.2

And don't even say its because of Gasol shooting less because they both attempt 10.8 shots per game. Howard scores 3 points more on basically the same amount of minutes and the same number of FG attempts. Difference is that Dwight is better at getting to the line than any other C in the league. Are you going to hold that against him? Because that's about the only reason Harden is right now better than Dwayne Wade offensively.

If your going to judge a Center based just based on TS% then I guess that makes Chandler > Howard.

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 08:32 PM
I am only using stats because your not gonna listen to me even if I try to tell you of the great things Al does on the floor. I mean you look at stats and still blow me off like I have no idea what I am talking about.

I have seen Dwight play, he fouls a lot on the defensive side, and loses the ball. Besides for one game, Al has been a great player who leads this team. How many C's can you say lead a team.

If it weren't for your turn around, I would bring up the fact that Al is winning us games. Just watch Utah beat LAC tonight, and tell me Al sucks, and doesn't even deserve the 2nd or 3rd place trophy!

Who said I'm not going to listen. I'll listen if your argument isn't homer filled and I truly hope that after I give you a statistical breakdown of the two players you wont run and hide of even ignorantly ignore them but appreciate them for what they are, forget your extreme homerism and be rational. Anywho here's the breakdown.


Player FG FGA FG% FT FTA FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Dwight 6.2 10.8 0.574 5.1 10 0.512 11.8 2 1.1 2.5 3.2 3.7 17.5
Al 7 14.8 0.474 2.2 2.6 0.842 10.2 1.9 0.9 1.1 1.3 2.6 16.3


So by the BASIC numbers Al Jefferson attempts 3 whole more shots a game than Dwight Howard but still averages 1.2 ppg less than him. Now lets just say we give Dwight those 3 more shots at the rate he shoots from the field. 14.8 x .574 = 8.5 FGM. 8.5 x 2 = 17 ppg + 5.1 FTM = 22.1 PPG.

I know its rough and not 100% true but its safe to say that if Kobe allowed Dwight to shoot a bit more (like he would had he been on a team like Utah) he'd score better than 21 ppg. His FTA would also go up with more freedom which would also bolster his scoring. Dwight has proven the ability to lead a team in scoring as the sole option with very little help to the playoffs so don't act as if its territory that Dwight has never seen before.


Player PER TS% eFG% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Dwight 20.3 0.577 0.575 18 9.5 1.5 5.2 17.6 22.4 107 101 1.5 1.6 3.1 0.144
Al 19.8 0.511 0.477 17.7 10.7 1.4 2.5 7.4 23.6 109 103 1.6 1.2 2.8 0.141

In every aspect of advanced statistical ranking among Cs Dwight is better than Al Jeff inclusive of being SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient from the field on an identical efficiency. No question about it Dwight is better in terms of advanced #s on BBREF.

Dwight 2 Al 0

Dwight (+2.1) is also superior to Al (-1.1) according to 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/1213/ROLRTG8.HTM) Simple Rating system. Dwight (+4.7) again bests Al (+2.1) in RAPM (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html) (regularized adjusted +/-) to the point where it not even a question.

Dwight 4 Al 0

That's just based on this season though where Al has actually played better than his norm and Dwight has been sub par to say the least. What if we compare Al to Dwight when he's back to his old self and healthy? It's not even a debate. There is absolutely no question as to who's better defensively as Al comes no where close to the defensive presence that Dwight is. Dwight is an elite rim protector, plays the lane well, owns his paint defensively is always one of the top 5 shot blockers in the game and if you miss the possession is over because he grabs you defensive rebounds at a high clip.

Statistically there is absolutely zero argument for Al and this is even when Dwight isn't doing well statistically.

If you suddenly want to change your argument from stats you can feel free to but I'll tell you this for every positive you can give me about Al I can give you 3 about Dwight and for every negative you can give for Dwight I'll give you two for Al Jeff.

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 08:35 PM
If your going to judge a Center based just based on TS% then I guess that makes Chandler > Howard.

Only a fool who can't make an argument for himself would say that. Did you not see where I said PPG and FGA? Obviously you did. You asked me a question you I answered your question.

Lets put Tyson in the role of Dwight ask him to do the things Dwight do and see how he does. I guess I should have put USG% in for you though and highlight it.

Jesse2272
12-28-2012, 08:37 PM
Who said I'm not going to listen. I'll listen if your argument isn't homer filled and I truly hope that after I give you a statistical breakdown of the two players you wont run and hide of even ignorantly ignore them but appreciate them for what they are, forget your extreme homerism and be rational. Anywho here's the breakdown.


Player FG FGA FG% FT FTA FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Dwight 6.2 10.8 0.574 5.1 10 0.512 11.8 2 1.1 2.5 3.2 3.7 17.5
Al 7 14.8 0.474 2.2 2.6 0.842 10.2 1.9 0.9 1.1 1.3 2.6 16.3


So by the BASIC numbers Al Jefferson attempts 3 whole more shots a game than Dwight Howard but still averages 1.2 ppg less than him. Now lets just say we give Dwight those 3 more shots at the rate he shoots from the field. 14.8 x .574 = 8.5 FGM. 8.5 x 2 = 17 ppg + 5.1 FTM = 22.1 PPG.

I know its rough and not 100% true but its safe to say that if Kobe allowed Dwight to shoot a bit more (like he would had he been on a team like Utah) he'd score better than 21 ppg. His FTA would also go up with more freedom which would also bolster his scoring. Dwight has proven the ability to lead a team in scoring as the sole option with very little help to the playoffs so don't act as if its territory that Dwight has never seen before.


Player PER TS% eFG% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Dwight 20.3 0.577 0.575 18 9.5 1.5 5.2 17.6 22.4 107 101 1.5 1.6 3.1 0.144
Al 19.8 0.511 0.477 17.7 10.7 1.4 2.5 7.4 23.6 109 103 1.6 1.2 2.8 0.141

In every aspect of advanced statistical ranking among Cs Dwight is better than Al Jeff inclusive of being SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient from the field on an identical efficiency. No question about it Dwight is better in terms of advanced #s on BBREF.

Dwight 2 Al 0

Dwight (+2.1) is also superior to Al (-1.1) according to 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/1213/ROLRTG8.HTM) Simple Rating system. Dwight (+4.7) again bests Al (+2.1) in RAPM (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html) (regularized adjusted +/-) to the point where it not even a question.

Dwight 4 Al 0

That's just based on this season though where Al has actually played better than his norm and Dwight has been sub par to say the least. What if we compare Al to Dwight when he's back to his old self and healthy? It's not even a debate. There is absolutely no question as to who's better defensively as Al comes no where close to the defensive presence that Dwight is. Dwight is an elite rim protector, plays the lane well, owns his paint defensively is always one of the top 5 shot blockers in the game and if you miss the possession is over because he grabs you defensive rebounds at a high clip.

Statistically there is absolutely zero argument for Al and this is even when Dwight isn't doing well statistically.

If you suddenly want to change your argument from stats you can feel free to but I'll tell you this for every positive you can give me about Al I can give you 3 about Dwight and for every negative you can give for Dwight I'll give you two for Al Jeff.

godammit swash

ok

ill do my homework and get back to you tonight/tomorrow

****er ;d

seriously, nba forum sucks withouht about 15 just over

figuer it out

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 08:43 PM
Hey Swash/Hawk

I promise ill read through the entire thread tomorrow

whats your thoughts on Tyson now, today, not just adv stats alone cuz I know you have some games in your bag as well...

Based on what I've seen from the Knicks this season (roughly about 6 whole games really can't remember) Tyson seems to be a little less focused defensively as compared to what I saw of his last season and especially in the Finals against the Heat and basically that's the only bad thing I can say about him. His positioning inside has been phenomenal (I still admire his ability to be on the recieving end of so many alley oops makes it seem so easy), he really maximizes on his ability and plays within himself as well as any player in the league.

I'm not someone who watches the Knicks on a nightly basis nor am I a fan of them so I may be a bit more lenient but at no point on offense have I ever thought to myself bad shot Tyson or poor pass or what a bone headed decision on D or anything of that nature. He's really adapted to the "New" Knicks offense and is a major reason for your guys success. Last season he was the Knicks' MVP this season he's 2nd and only because of Melo playing some of the best ball of his career.

hail2skins4life
12-28-2012, 08:46 PM
Dwight when he wants to

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 08:49 PM
Like I've said from the beginning, let me know when you can count on Dwight down the stretch to hit a basket or sink some free throws.

You're just a clown who has no opinion on a player unless it fits into some statistical formula, its actually pretty sad. Watch the game a little bit, you'll enjoy it more.

You don't WANT your C to STRETCH the floor that's what you have Fs and Gs for your C is suppose to RULE THE PAINT.

Can Tyson stretch the floor?

Wilt Chamberlain one of the greatest Cs ever and Wilt himself said if he could change one thing about his career was that he could be more like SHAQ and establish the paint earlier in his career rather than trying to shoot 17 foot jumpers. That's from one of the greatest Cs to ever play the game. Own the paint, dominate the paint. That's what you want. Marc shoots as much as Howard stretching the floor but guess what HE SCORES less. He can hit the FT but lets see him get to the line more why don't we.

You can call me whatever you want I my knowledge of the game is way greater than anything you brain will ever be able to comprehend. That's come from playing and watching more than you could ever dream of.

RyanStorm
12-28-2012, 09:05 PM
I already knew Dwight had better numbers, I have been saying Jefferson is right up there with him.

To me its obvious that Dwight has the better winning formula and has had the better career which is why I have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone can contend with him. Which is why I dont think anyone else has any cases.

My only case is, Al should at least be #2, or 3. When you checked your Centers out, did you notice anything. Dwight is in the top 5 of every category he should be in. We know he is a great overall player but the fact that he is lacking in a few places, is why someone would even question Superman.

The statistics that I put up that Al was better at were the TO, Fouls and FT. I guess when you actually calculate it, does the points off those give turn overs make up in Dwights points? Does him drawing the foul help bench the other players, yes, and if he made these FT would I have a case here, probably not, cause for every foul he does, he gets one right back, which probably evens itself out. The turnover rate is just way to high, and with Al not TOing so bad, I thought his slightly less stats were made up for this.




I wanted to see if Jefferson could make a shot at cause he is right behind Dwight. I mean no other Center was in as many categories as Dwight. Watch Jefferson with LAC, you will see how much of a great player he is and see that he wins games for Utah cause he is a leader.

The way I see it, I rather have Al making slightly less points, rebounds, and blocks(making almost all of his FT), if he is making all them points every night and winning us games.

When Dwight puts up about the same amount a points a night(same with all other stats), and even if he gets his free throw points, you have to minus how many points that are given from his fouls and TO's(this might even be why you lose). This is where I am surprised his rating isnt lower, cause every turnover is a chance for the other team to score, and pick up momentum. This is why I said TO's and Fouls were not looking good for him.


I admit Dwight is and should be #1, if you agree he needs to stop TOing(cause whats the point of making 18 pts a night if your giving them countless free points a night in FT, and fast break pts from turnovers), and that if he is gonna draw this many fouls, he should be making the free throws(all those FT he missed could have won him the game, especially if he didn't give up all those points).
But I would like you to admit, that Jefferson is a productive player who is having a great season and should at least be consider top 5, cause your right Dwight should be #1, I just think Big Al has a lot of things that put him up there with under dwight. I just think with all those less fouls, to's and not missing FT's, Al is being more productive.

ShadyOne
12-28-2012, 09:08 PM
You don't WANT your C to STRETCH the floor that's what you have Fs and Gs for your C is suppose to RULE THE PAINT.

Can Tyson stretch the floor?

Wilt Chamberlain one of the greatest Cs ever and Wilt himself said if he could change one thing about his career was that he could be more like SHAQ and establish the paint earlier in his career rather than trying to shoot 17 foot jumpers. That's from one of the greatest Cs to ever play the game. Own the paint, dominate the paint. That's what you want. Marc shoots as much as Howard stretching the floor but guess what HE SCORES less. He can hit the FT but lets see him get to the line more why don't we.

You can call me whatever you want I my knowledge of the game is way greater than anything you brain will ever be able to comprehend. That's come from playing and watching more than you could ever dream of.

Not even getting involved in the Chandler discussion..

But in Marc's defense, he does play alongside another guy who lives in the paint. Marc basically plays a similar role to ZBo as Pau to Howard. And both Gasols have always shown the team mentality, perfectly happy to play however they are asked. If either was asked, or ever "wanted" to be the #1 option, there is no doubt they would put up great numbers. Both are very skilled, and very versatile.

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 09:11 PM
I already knew Dwight had better numbers, I have been saying Jefferson is right up there with him.

To me its obvious that Dwight has the better winning formula and has had the better career which is why I have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone can contend with him. Which is why I dont think anyone else has any cases.

My only case is, Al should at least be #2, or 3. When you checked your Centers out, did you notice anything. Dwight is in the top 5 of every category he should be in. We know he is a great overall player but the fact that he is lacking in a few places, is why someone would even question Superman.

The statistics that I put up that Al was better at were the TO, Fouls and FT. I guess when you actually calculate it, does the points off those give turn overs make up in Dwights points? Does him drawing the foul help bench the other players, yes, and if he made these FT would I have a case here, probably not, cause for every foul he does, he gets one right back, which probably evens itself out. The turnover rate is just way to high, and with Al not TOing so bad, I thought his slightly less stats were made up for this.




I wanted to see if Jefferson could make a shot at cause he is right behind Dwight. I mean no other Center was in as many categories as Dwight. Watch Jefferson with LAC, you will see how much of a great player he is and see that he wins games for Utah cause he is a leader.

The way I see it, I rather have Al making slightly less points, rebounds, and blocks(making almost all of his FT), if he is making all them points every night and winning us games.

When Dwight puts up about the same amount a points a night(same with all other stats), and even if he gets his free throw points, you have to minus how many points that are given from his fouls and TO's(this might even be why you lose). This is where I am surprised his rating isnt lower, cause every turnover is a chance for the other team to score, and pick up momentum. This is why I said TO's and Fouls were not looking good for him.


I admit Dwight is and should be #1, if you agree he needs to stop TOing(cause whats the point of making 18 pts a night if your giving them countless free points a night in FT, and fast break pts from turnovers), and that if he is gonna draw this many fouls, he should be making the free throws(all those FT he missed could have won him the game, especially if he didn't give up all those points).
But I would like you to admit, that Jefferson is a productive player who is having a great season and should at least be consider top 5, cause your right Dwight should be #1, I just think Big Al has a lot of things that put him up there with under dwight. I just think with all those less fouls, to's and not missing FT's, Al is being more productive.

Statistically speaking? Al Jeff isn't top 5.

Ebbs
12-28-2012, 09:19 PM
Dwight but based on the numbers this season not Dwight.

tapajafri
12-28-2012, 09:30 PM
No way its bynum....

tapajafri
12-28-2012, 09:30 PM
The best center in the league is still Howard.

However, the most talented center in terms of skill and raw ability would have to be Demarcus Cousins.

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 09:38 PM
Not even getting involved in the Chandler discussion..

But in Marc's defense, he does play alongside another guy who lives in the paint. Marc basically plays a similar role to ZBo as Pau to Howard. And both Gasols have always shown the team mentality, perfectly happy to play however they are asked. If either was asked, or ever "wanted" to be the #1 option, there is no doubt they would put up great numbers. Both are very skilled, and very versatile.

Cool I got you. Let's put Marc and Dwight under the same circumstances on the same team who do you think will be the better player?

mike 810
12-28-2012, 09:55 PM
Andre drummond...

ShadyOne
12-28-2012, 10:15 PM
Cool I got you. Let's put Marc and Dwight under the same circumstances on the same team who do you think will be the better player?

Hmm..

I think it depends on the situation. In the situation where the team in question has a ball-dominant, high scoring guard, and you are depending on the C to control the paint defensively, and chip in with garbage buckets and stuff like that, no question Howard wins.

But if you are depending on the C to be the focal point of the offense, I think Gasol could be a monster. Can post, can shoot, and can really pass. And his D isn't shabby either. Surround him with some nice talent that can shoot the ball, would be deadly. Could see him putting up big numbers on a successful team. And the "hack-a-Gasol" defense wouldn't work

Overall, I guess I can't argue with Howard, as his physical ability can't be taught, and you couldn't predict "what if Gasol was THE MAN on a team". But we do know that Howard as that #1 can't get it done, just has too many flaws.

HouRealCoach
12-28-2012, 10:18 PM
Dwight
Bynum
Cousins
Gasol
Lopez
Bogut
Chandler

Greedy22
12-28-2012, 10:19 PM
Hmm..

I think it depends on the situation. In the situation where the team in question has a ball-dominant, high scoring guard, and you are depending on the C to control the paint defensively, and chip in with garbage buckets and stuff like that, no question Howard wins.

But if you are depending on the C to be the focal point of the offense, I think Gasol could be a monster. Can post, can shoot, and can really pass. And his D isn't shabby either. Surround him with some nice talent that can shoot the ball, would be deadly. Could see him putting up big numbers on a successful team. And the "hack-a-Gasol" defense wouldn't work

Overall, I guess I can't argue with Howard, as his physical ability can't be taught, and you couldn't predict "what if Gasol was THE MAN on a team". But we do know that Howard as that #1 can't get it done, just has too many flaws.

He got his team to the finals as the man and with a roster that wasn't much to write home about.

ShadyOne
12-28-2012, 10:33 PM
He got his team to the finals as the man and with a roster that wasn't much to write home about.

But he didn't win

And it isn't like he had nothing. He had a similar lineup to what I described as an ideal one for Gasol. Except it wouldn't be "live or die with the 3" if it was Gasol.

And then instead of staying "the man" and improving his post game and FT shooting a bit, and getting the right pieces, he ******* out, whined and cried, and teamed up with Kobe..

CityofChaos
12-28-2012, 10:40 PM
Bogut?

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 10:42 PM
Hmm..

I think it depends on the situation. In the situation where the team in question has a ball-dominant, high scoring guard, and you are depending on the C to control the paint defensively, and chip in with garbage buckets and stuff like that, no question Howard wins.

But if you are depending on the C to be the focal point of the offense, I think Gasol could be a monster. Can post, can shoot, and can really pass. And his D isn't shabby either. Surround him with some nice talent that can shoot the ball, would be deadly. Could see him putting up big numbers on a successful team. And the "hack-a-Gasol" defense wouldn't work

Overall, I guess I can't argue with Howard, as his physical ability can't be taught, and you couldn't predict "what if Gasol was THE MAN on a team". But we do know that Howard as that #1 can't get it done, just has too many flaws.

I smell ya. IMO I think Gasol himself can't get it done as a #1 either, he's more so a #3 than anything else. Skill doesn't always equate to productivity and Gasol is showing us plain as day. Honestly if a player is a beast he's going to be a beast regardless of who you put on his team (see Bynum last season as compared to previous years when people were saying Gasol held him back as s rebounder when health was really the only concern).

Marc can post, yes but can he be a go to scorer when you need buckets. Can he do this on a night in night out basis. Dwight has proven this. This is what we do know. Yeah Marc is solid defensively really grown on that end of the floor and this season he's been borderline elite, but can he lead his team to the best defense in the league with very little to no help on that end of the floor on the perimeter of in the paint? Dwight can this is what we do know.

We know Dwight can take his team to the NBA Finals as the #1 option with no real legitimate #2 on board. I mean the streakiest thing in basketball is shooting and if your shooters are on at all times then your main support has more or less failed you no? Dwight has proven to be able to lead his team to a great way as its best defensive player, most impactful and the absolute catalyst to their success. Gasol hasn't.

Despite all Dwight's flaws and Gasol's complete game for some reason Gasol has never been able to show that he's on Dwight's level (really don't want to hear the ZBo argument he missed almost all of last season) in terms of scoring, efficiency, defense, rebounding, impact and winning.

Its all fine and dandy if you're a skilled player but if you're not as productive as another aren't you less valuable. Productivity beats skill every day of the week.

In theory a C who is more skilled would be a more valuable piece as the focal point of a team's offense would he not? Well that's not always the case. As far as their careers goes Dwight teams have been better offensively with him than Marc's has.

RAPM

09 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2009.html)
Dwight +2.2
Gasol -0.2

10 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2010.html)
Dwight +2.8
Gasol +1.3

11 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2011.html)
Dwight +2.5
Gasol -0.0

12 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2012.html)
Dwight +1.4
Gasol +0.5

13 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html)
Dwight -0.2
Gasol +0.3

For this first time over the course of his career Gasol has been more valuable in the context of his team according to RAPM and this is possibly Dwight worst season since becoming a true star player. He was better than Gasol last season however when he was indeed more of a focal point of his teams offense.

Now remember this is just offense we're talking about we are yet to touch on defense.

Both ends of the floor I take Dwight Howard without thinking twice. He's refined his offensive game needs to work on his shot and would never be more than an okay passer but his efficient scoring and ability to completely take opposing bigs out of the game with his FT rate makes him invaluable and not to mention the fact that he draws as many double teams as he does making the job easier for his teammates on offense.

ShadyOne
12-28-2012, 10:50 PM
^ Good points...

Again, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. I said above that I couldn't argue against Howard. Until Gasol proves my theory right, I have to give the nod to Dwight. Just saying the tools, and the possibility, are there..

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 10:51 PM
But he didn't win

And it isn't like he had nothing. He had a similar lineup to what I described as an ideal one for Gasol. Except it wouldn't be "live or die with the 3" if it was Gasol.

And then instead of staying "the man" and improving his post game and FT shooting a bit, and getting the right pieces, he ******* out, whined and cried, and teamed up with Kobe..

Thing is however the coach himself said that that is his philosophy. He believed that free throws, opens 3s and dunks were the highest % shots in the league and coached his team according to that. Had Marc been a part of that team they'd be way less effective on offense (wouldn't be half as dominant in the paint thus not drawing the defensive attention that frees up the shooters) and probably not even in the top 10 in terms of D (which was their real strong suit not their 3 point shooting).

The Magic's perimeter defenders were taught to channel their man into Dwight's lane so as to maximize on their best defensive player's biggest defensive strength which is/was paint protection and they did it perfectly. Marc has Tony Allen (best defensive G in the league IMO) and Mike Conley (top 10 defensive PG) on his team so protecting the rim is no where near as big a concern for him as it was for Howard. Can we say that if he had to worry about that, help on ZBo's man, guard his own man and grab the rebound that he'd fair as well as Dwight? IMO no he just doesn't have the instincts nor is he quick enough to do so. Those Magic would not have seen it tough to get pass my 76ers in the first round much less make it to the finals.

Swashcuff
12-28-2012, 10:52 PM
^ Good points...

Again, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. I said above that I couldn't argue against Howard. Until Gasol proves my theory right, I have to give the nod to Dwight. Just saying the tools, and the possibility, are there..

My bad bro I misunderstood your POV for a second, and yes I do agree that the tools are there for Marc. :cheers:

Greedy22
12-28-2012, 10:57 PM
But he didn't win

And it isn't like he had nothing. He had a similar lineup to what I described as an ideal one for Gasol. Except it wouldn't be "live or die with the 3" if it was Gasol.

And then instead of staying "the man" and improving his post game and FT shooting a bit, and getting the right pieces, he ******* out, whined and cried, and teamed up with Kobe..

Well he did lose to a far superior lakers team lol.

I didn't see that part of your post, my bad.

Yeah, he *****ed out on Orlando, but he isn't the only one who refused to stay with his team so I won't hold that on him.

ShadyOne
12-28-2012, 11:08 PM
Must be a lot of clowns on this site that just happen to know a lot more than you do about basketball. Curry has been better this year.

Hmm..different players. Combo scoring guard vs. pure point

Taking all-around game into consideration, very hard to go against Rondo there. Dude single-handedly can be a game-changer.

As a disclaimer, I like Curry. Still pissed GS took him, he was destined to be on the Knicks...