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View Full Version : Why is Steve Nash still so good, while Kidd has dropped off?



NYSpirit1
12-26-2012, 02:15 AM
Believe me, Kidd still has so much value to the Knicks. He's one of their most important players. But as a side act, not as the main show.

Nash is about the same age as Kidd and still plays at an elite level, while Kidd's production (statistically speaking) dropped off years ago.

Kidd used to be a triple double machine, he averaged like 13, 9 and 8 one year. He led a crappy Nets team to the Finals, twice.

Why do you think Nash can still play at this level while Kidd will never be the top five player he once was?

The reason for the thread was I felt Nash was so critical down the stretch playing like a star and while Kidd has been instrumental all season for the Knicks in situations like this, I just felt today, in this situation, Nash still looked like a superstar while Kidd was just a role player.

lakers4sho
12-26-2012, 02:17 AM
because nash is more athletic

b@llhog24
12-26-2012, 02:34 AM
Except Kidd has great stats this year.

KniCks4LiFe
12-26-2012, 02:36 AM
conditioning.

jam
12-26-2012, 02:44 AM
Believe me, Kidd still has so much value to the Knicks. He's one of their most important players. But as a side act, not as the main show.

Nash is about the same age as Kidd and still plays at an elite level, while Kidd's production (statistically speaking) dropped off years ago.

Kidd used to be a triple double machine, he averaged like 13, 9 and 8 one year. He led a crappy Nets team to the Finals, twice.

Why do you think Nash can still play at this level while Kidd will never be the top five player he once was?

What are you complaining about? Kidd is 39 and still a productive player in the league.

To answer your question: microfracture surgery.

tripleplay2007
12-26-2012, 02:49 AM
Kidd's knees have required so many surgeries. He's lost a ton of speed and explosion.

Becks2307
12-26-2012, 02:51 AM
Nash has a lot less milage, didnt play big minutes at all until his 3rd season. Kidd has played about 200 more games than Nash in the reg season.

JesusWears24
12-26-2012, 02:52 AM
Because Steve Nash is a finesse player. Jason Kidd is a guy who does the dirty work. He was guarding Kobe and thats something Nash doesnt do. Kidd has been playing physical basketball for so long his body is wearing down, but he is still playing well.

rocky4104
12-26-2012, 03:12 AM
years ago (can't remember if he was still a Mav or a Sun at that time), there was an article about him being a 'conditioning' freak. the author wrote about how he approached Nash about shadowing him and how Nash agreed on the condition that the author must keep up with him while he enjoys the 'night life'. The article stated that Nash went bar-hopping' that night, but in a totally different way -- the author wrote that Steve's idea of hopping bars is to sprint to one bar on to the next. he would drink one beer and go off running to the next bar. That's dedication. 8-)

Supreme LA
12-26-2012, 03:16 AM
The obvious difference is Steve Nash is one of the greatest shooters from anywhere on the court. You still can't discredit what Kidd brings to the Knicks. He always guards the best guards in the league like Kobe and Wade and he does a tremendous job.

Kidd is still one of the smartest players in the league. One of my all-time favorites for sure.

Becks2307
12-26-2012, 03:17 AM
And honestly, I think Kidd is a better all time player than Nash.

Steve does have the MVPs but in their prime I'm taking Kidd.

The goods
12-26-2012, 03:18 AM
Nash plays like a smart old guy nothing he does requires athleticism, just skill and brains and he's been doing it for years.

The goods
12-26-2012, 03:25 AM
And honestly, I think Kidd is a better all time player than Nash.

Steve does have the MVPs but in their prime I'm taking Kidd.

Idk picking between Nash and Kidd in their primes is more based on your team if you have a team full of scorers I'd take Kidd because in his prime he was a horrible shooter, but great at defense but if I have a team full of average Joes I'd take Nash because of his offense and just try to out score the opponent (sound familiar?), but both are great at getting everyone involved almost equal if you ask me.

Hawkeye15
12-26-2012, 03:26 AM
the answer to the basic question here is, skills don't die. When you can shoot lights out, and are arguably the greatest shooter in history, you age well, versus a player who always struggled with such.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-26-2012, 03:43 AM
the answer to the basic question here is, skills don't die. When you can shoot lights out, and are arguably the greatest shooter in history, you age well, versus a player who always struggled with such.

This and not everyone at age 40 can be a great player. It's happened like ten times in league history. You can't expect greatness from an old man. It's asking to much.

Yunqn
12-26-2012, 03:46 AM
Because Steve Nash is a finesse player. Jason Kidd is a guy who does the dirty work. He was guarding Kobe and thats something Nash doesnt do. Kidd has been playing physical basketball for so long his body is wearing down, but he is still playing well.


THIS..

Kidd does alot more work on the court & spends more energy because of defense... People forget that even still to this day kidd defends against the best pg or sg's on most possesions..

he also had alot more deteriorating injuires & more mileage .. kidd also came into the league as a athletic guard and changed his game slowly overtime..

and lastly he didnt have the medical staff nash had in phx who have been the best for awhile now..

Lakers + Giants
12-26-2012, 04:15 AM
the answer to the basic question here is, skills don't die. When you can shoot lights out, and are arguably the greatest shooter in history, you age well, versus a player who always struggled with such.

I agree with this plus the way nash takes care of himself. Dude takes care of himself and is in great condition.

Chronz
12-26-2012, 04:23 AM
Less reliant on speed and ups

More-Than-Most
12-26-2012, 04:56 AM
Because he is not from this planet :shrug:

Becks2307
12-26-2012, 04:58 AM
the answer to the basic question here is, skills don't die. When you can shoot lights out, and are arguably the greatest shooter in history, you age well, versus a player who always struggled with such.

You are being a lil harsh on Kidd, Not many 39-40 yr old in history have been as good as Kidd and Nash are being.

Becks2307
12-26-2012, 04:59 AM
THIS..

Kidd does alot more work on the court & spends more energy because of defense... People forget that even still to this day kidd defends against the best pg or sg's on most possesions..

he also had alot more deteriorating injuires & more mileage .. kidd also came into the league as a athletic guard and changed his game slowly overtime..

and lastly he didnt have the medical staff nash had in phx who have been the best for awhile now..

Kidd is still a really good defender and still rebounds pretty well. If you look at his body of work this season he is playing at a pretty high level.

Plus i dont get this thread.

Yeah they are the same age but Kidd has played since 94' and Nash has played since 96. Kidd has also played more minutes than Nash.

sharqstealth
12-26-2012, 05:31 AM
Just 1 good game and Nash is better this season? No way! You've got to understand Kidd also brings some intangibles in the game like defense and lights out 3s, if you see Kidd hustle for loose balls you will not think he's an old man.

Supreme LA
12-26-2012, 05:37 AM
Just 1 good game and Nash is better this season? No way! You've got to understand Kidd also brings some intangibles in the game like defense and lights out 3s, if you see Kidd hustle for loose balls you will not think he's an old man.

Relax dude. Everyone on PSD respects Kidd.

nolin
12-26-2012, 05:48 AM
Believe me, Kidd still has so much value to the Knicks. He's one of their most important players. But as a side act, not as the main show.

Nash is about the same age as Kidd and still plays at an elite level, while Kidd's production (statistically speaking) dropped off years ago.

Kidd used to be a triple double machine, he averaged like 13, 9 and 8 one year. He led a crappy Nets team to the Finals, twice.

Why do you think Nash can still play at this level while Kidd will never be the top five player he once was?

The reason for the thread was I felt Nash was so critical down the stretch playing like a star and while Kidd has been instrumental all season for the Knicks in situations like this, I just felt today, in this situation, Nash still looked like a superstar while Kidd was just a role player.



lol your trying to get your fellow knicks fans upset a little? Nash has played 4 games all year. Just how good is he? Nash reminds me of john stockton. almost clones of one another. Great passers good shooter but like stockton nash will never win a championship. Something kidd has.

AI
12-26-2012, 05:56 AM
Yet another stupid thread by NYSpirit.

Iron24th
12-26-2012, 05:59 AM
Nash is more skilled on offense, but kidd is still a hell of a defender.

Heediot
12-26-2012, 08:15 AM
Style of play. Nash's game ages better.

bbiq
12-26-2012, 08:38 AM
how about the fact that everything Nash is doing he learned from Kidd while he was riding the pine and kidd was the starting PG in phoenix,guess we all forgot how garbage Nash was whem he first entered the NBA but enough of that. where and how do you think that kidd is not productive.Nash plays no defense and when he plays guards like tony parker ,CP3,kylie irving,deron williams he doesnt show up but Kidd does

Evolution23
12-26-2012, 08:47 AM
Nash is a better shooter but Kidd pretty much outdoes him in every other category.

FlakeyFool
12-26-2012, 09:31 AM
Nash is canadian

JasonJohnHorn
12-26-2012, 09:45 AM
These two guys have very different games.

That said, not everybody ages the same in the NBA. Look at Kareem and Karl Malone. Malone especially. He was capable of averaging 20/10 at 40 (though playing for the Lakers he didn't get that many shots because we all know Kobe had to shoot 27 shots a game at least and Shaq got his in to).

These guys are special. Same could be said of John Stockton. At 40 years old Stockton was still in the top ten in assists. Stockton's game was more about using picks and being a good shooter than it was about speed and agility. I think the same can be said of Nash (though he does like to push the ball and run a lot more than perhaps stockton did).

Kidds game is all about hustle. Her hustled his way to rebounds and loose balls. And early in his career he was an awful shooter, but over the last five seasons he's become a legit shooter. And he's 6'4, which means he's big enough to play shooting guard, which he has been doing a lot this season, so his assists are down. NY has him out there as a defender and a spot up shooter a lot of the game.

They are two very different players. And nobody ages the same. Nash and Kidd have both aged very well considering there was only one player of 40 years of age to ever play a full season at the PG position and that was Stockton.

You might as well ask why Hakeem didn't age as well as Kareem. Or why Barkley only played until he was 36 while Malone played until he was 40. Why isn't Shaq still playing? Why is McGrady out of the league when he's younger than Kobe and Kobe is still playing at an All-Star level?

Different guys deal with different injuries and have different games that are dependant on different things (power, athleticism, basketball IQ). And even if all those things are the same, bodies still age differently. I mean, Barkley retired early due to an injury, but considered coming back briefly afterward. We all know that Barkley didn't approach off-season conditioning the way Karl Malone did (few players do what Karl Malone did in the off-season), but I doubt very much that Nash and Kidd are very different in their approach to conditioning. Both guys seem like the work hard at keeping in shape.

D-Leethal
12-26-2012, 10:40 AM
Being able to shoot off the dribble is huge. Kidd can't get a shot off unless its an open catch and shoot at this point. Nash can shoot off the dribble maybe better than anyone in history.

3RDASYSTEM
12-26-2012, 11:04 AM
Im so sick of psd comparing backupplayers to day1franchise starters

KIDD was co rookie of year with G.HILL

NASH was a backupguard on a team that KIDD went to later and started on and made them legit

this comparison is basically KOBE vs AI/BRON

so 1 player is engine to squad from day1(meaning way more early mileage) and the other is a backupguard who starts yrs later

this **** sound just like NASH's new backcourt mate's upbringing in LA

backupplayers turned starters

isnt it logical that he falls off sooner naturally since he did do it offtop and not riding the pine? and that knee/career killer called microfracture surgery ring a bell?

Money_23
12-26-2012, 11:07 AM
Im so sick of psd comparing backupplayers to day1franchise starters

KIDD was co rookie of year with G.HILL

NASH was a backupguard on a team that KIDD went to later and started on and made them legit

this comparison is basically KOBE vs AI/BRON

so 1 player is engine to squad from day1(meaning way more early mileage) and the other is a backupguard who starts yrs later

this **** sound just like NASH's new backcourt mate's upbringing in LA

backupplayers turned starters

isnt it logical that he falls off sooner naturally since he did do it offtop and not riding the pine? and that knee/career killer called microfracture surgery ring a bell?

:laugh2:

Azzacadabra
12-26-2012, 11:12 AM
Honestly Kidd doesn't need to be that top guy anymore to be valuable. He's excellent defensively, he can light a fire under younger player's' *****. Plus that veteran presence is invaluable.

Money_23
12-26-2012, 11:15 AM
Kidd brings alot of intangibles.

smood999
12-26-2012, 11:38 AM
same age...more mileage on Kidd...2 more seasons plus Nash was his backup at one point...Nash didn't play well over 30 min a game until his 5th season, by that time, Kidd was 7 seasons in of over 33 min a game...

I don't think it has to do with skill, 2 seasons ago Kidd was the starting PG on a Championship team, you may even have to go back another yr before that for Kidd and compare him to Nash now to equal out the mileage...or see where Nash is in 2-3 yrs..

StarvingKnick22
12-26-2012, 11:42 AM
Except Kidd has great stats this year.

x2.
What is the OP talking about? He's doing better than half of our team right now at 39. Nash is becoming more injury prone and has played like 7 games. Its not hard to give up 11 assist when you only have to pass to 1 player.

NYSpirit1
12-26-2012, 04:22 PM
x2.
What is the OP talking about? He's doing better than half of our team right now at 39. Nash is becoming more injury prone and has played like 7 games. Its not hard to give up 11 assist when you only have to pass to 1 player.

What am I talking about?

Kidd's averaging 8 points, 4 rebounds and 4 assists.

That's a far cry from when he averaged 14-18 points, 9-10 assists and 6-7 rebounds.

The point was that Nash will probably still put up 13-14 points and 10-11 assists a game still, evidenced by last year.

Kidd doesn't put up elite numbers anymore. That's what the thread was about and I thought it was curious because they're about the same age.

Becks2307
12-26-2012, 04:27 PM
What am I talking about?

Kidd's averaging 8 points, 4 rebounds and 4 assists.

That's a far cry from when he averaged 14-18 points, 9-10 assists and 6-7 rebounds.

The point was that Nash will probably still put up 13-14 points and 10-11 assists a game still, evidenced by last year.

Kidd doesn't put up elite numbers anymore. That's what the thread was about and I thought it was curious because they're about the same age.

Same age but kid has played almost 3 seasons more in total

marsza
12-26-2012, 04:44 PM
it's the hair.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-26-2012, 04:47 PM
Nash is a better shooter but Kidd pretty much outdoes him in every other category.

So you rather have Kidd on your team?

Hawkeye15
12-26-2012, 04:57 PM
You are being a lil harsh on Kidd, Not many 39-40 yr old in history have been as good as Kidd and Nash are being.

I am speaking in general as well though. Shooting is a skill that doesn't die. Its why Nash is aging better. That and his game never relied on athletic ability as much as Kidd's. Its why Dirk will age great.

Kidd is exceptionally skilled at the game, as far as ball handling, passing, and understanding the game. But as his athletic ability goes, he has nothing near the same shot, so he won't age as well as Nash.

tapajafri
12-26-2012, 05:01 PM
they're better than each other in two different ways

tapajafri
12-26-2012, 05:01 PM
So you rather have Kidd on your team?

I would.

tapajafri
12-26-2012, 05:01 PM
Except Kidd has great stats this year.

But sometimes stats don't always tell the whole story.

The way Nash can still dictate the pace and control a game is pretty amazing. Those "hockey assists' and the way Nash runs the lakers to where they succeed don't show up in the stat book. Kidd can't do that anymore. Kidd can't control the game and run the team like Nash still can.

I agree with Barkley that Kidd is the only player in NBA history that could control a game without scoring a single point (back in his new jersey days). But Kidd still does bring a lot of the intangibles that Nash doesn't. However, Nash is more valuable than Kidd is at this point in their careers.

heyman321
12-26-2012, 05:10 PM
Kidd has way more mileage, and played defense which required athleticism and size. Nash didn't do those things, and he doesn't require athleticism for any of his playmaking, just smarts and IQ.

tripleplay2007
12-26-2012, 05:16 PM
Kidd has a championship while Nash doesn't if you wanna be a prick about things.

effen5
12-26-2012, 05:19 PM
Nash is still an offensive threat as a deadly shooter.

dodie53
12-26-2012, 07:03 PM
conditioning and shooting

WeBallin
12-26-2012, 07:19 PM
Kidd is on Pace to become 2nd all time in 3pt field goals made, not sure he has fell off that hard yet.. He still a very effective player plus his locker room presents is priceless

Bigbadmoffo
12-26-2012, 07:43 PM
Nash is a better shooter but Kidd pretty much outdoes him in every other category.

So true I mean Nash can't pass and playmake like Kidd:p

SirSkyHook
12-26-2012, 07:50 PM
Nash Is a better shooter but cant guard anyone.
Kidd Is a better defender who developed his shot later.
Both are amazing passers, and have superior court vision.
Kidd went further with slightly less talent, but in a weaker Eastern Conference.
Nash played in a dominate Western Conference every year, and lost against Kobe, Duncan, and Dirk all Final MVP's

It's a toss up really.as far as greatness, but I think theyer bringing the same level off production to the respective current franchises. Kidd still more in defence and Nash still more in offence.

SirSkyHook
12-26-2012, 07:52 PM
So true I mean Nash can't pass and playmake like Kidd:p

Nash can do those like Kidd this is true, but where Nash can only shoot better than Kidd, Kidd can defend and rebound better than Nash. It's still a toss up though.

phen0m
12-26-2012, 08:29 PM
kidd is fat, nash is skinny

/thread

THE MTL
12-26-2012, 09:05 PM
I cant believe this thread is coming from another Knicks fan. Jason Kidd has been HUGE this whole season and his defense is needed much more for the Knicks as opposed to Nash's offense.

The Knicks made the right decision in getting Jason Kidd. His IQ level is E-L-I-T-E. What he brings to our team is so much more than just on the court. Kidd is in the coach's ear, Melo's ear, Felton's ear, huge locker room presence, etc etc.

But anyway, if your talking about skills wise. I guess Steve Nash still has less mileage and also he played in the fountain of youth at Phoenix. I think they got something in the drinking water at Phoenix lol.

SteveNash
12-26-2012, 10:10 PM
Kidd - 15,000 more minutes, microfracture surgery, doesn't hog the ball.

b@llhog24
12-26-2012, 10:42 PM
What am I talking about?

Kidd's averaging 8 points, 4 rebounds and 4 assists.

That's a far cry from when he averaged 14-18 points, 9-10 assists and 6-7 rebounds.

The point was that Nash will probably still put up 13-14 points and 10-11 assists a game still, evidenced by last year.

Kidd doesn't put up elite numbers anymore. That's what the thread was about and I thought it was curious because they're about the same age.


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Jason Kidd 2012-13 39 24 711 16.9 .630 .595 1.9 15.5 8.3 18.9 3.4 1.4 13.4 11.7 128 102 1.7 1.0 2.7 .182

Looks pretty elite considering the mins he's getting to me.


But sometimes stats don't always tell the whole story.

The way Nash can still dictate the pace and control a game is pretty amazing. Those "hockey assists' and the way Nash runs the lakers to where they succeed don't show up in the stat book. Kidd can't do that anymore. Kidd can't control the game and run the team like Nash still can.

I agree with Barkley that Kidd is the only player in NBA history that could control a game without scoring a single point (back in his new jersey days). But Kidd still does bring a lot of the intangibles that Nash doesn't. However, Nash is more valuable than Kidd is at this point in their careers.

Honestly not sure why you quoted me.

Greedy22
12-26-2012, 11:10 PM
Shooters age well and his diet/conditioning.

Kenny
12-27-2012, 12:38 AM
This topic is funny. Anyone see Kidd tonight. Guy is basketball genious on all the little plays he does to win a game. He is still a great player just not always on the stat sheet

Snakeyestx
12-27-2012, 12:51 AM
Kidd just dropped a season high 23 points.

This is honestly apples and oranges. Kidd was brought in as a secondary, Nash was brought in as a starter. Kidd, when depended upon gives you starter's results despite his age.

Max.This
12-27-2012, 12:55 AM
OP stop making stupid threads.

Becks2307
12-27-2012, 12:57 AM
Jason Kidd's intangibles are off the charts holy ****. Not to mention his stats were really great as well

23pts 8ast 6 rebounds

50% from the field 62% from downtown

Shkelqim
12-27-2012, 01:36 AM
Nash plays offense only therefore you'd have to say he plays about 18-20 minutes a game compared to Kidd.

RonE Coleman
12-27-2012, 01:39 AM
OP stop making threads. Every single one you make is a head scratcher

Cal827
12-27-2012, 01:40 AM
OP stop making threads. Every single one you make is a head scratcher

Nah man, a head scratcher is something that makes you think at least. I wouldn't scratch the left corner of my ball sack with half of these threads.

cleptopot
12-27-2012, 01:45 AM
And honestly, I think Kidd is a better all time player than Nash.

Steve does have the MVPs but in their prime I'm taking Kidd.
:facepalm:

RonE Coleman
12-27-2012, 01:46 AM
Nah man, a head scratcher is something that makes you think at least. I wouldn't scratch the left corner of my ball sack with half of these threads.

Touche.

cleptopot
12-27-2012, 01:48 AM
Kidd just had a good game but melos and felton were out so it doesnt count :rolleyes:

Becks2307
12-27-2012, 01:56 AM
:facepalm:

come on really? You don't think it's at least a discussion between Nash and Kidd in their primes?

TheNumber37
12-27-2012, 02:04 AM
False.
Nash has been THE Starting point guards on his Suns for years and now just started with the Lakers. Nash Passes and Shoots, that's pretty much it. Kidd use to run the fast break and that was NOT the style in Dallas nor in NY, where he is playing SG.
Tonight he played PG and had 23 points, 6 rebounds, and 8 dimes

Kidd Shoots, passes, rebounds defends both guard spots (Which Nash could NEVER do) and he is a vocal leader in the Locker room and the court. Nash is not a leader in that sense and is less experienced having played less Playoff games, never getting to the finals or playing deep in the Olympics. Kidd has a ring and olympic medals.

Shooting and passing won't fade as quick as rebounding, defense and speed which were/are huge parts of Kidd's game.
Kidd has simply done more on the court than Nash, so it's easy to notice the difference in his play than Nash.

TheNumber37
12-27-2012, 02:12 AM
:facepalm:

IN their Primes Kidd took the Nets (from nothing) to the finals 2 years in a row.
Nash in his prime took the suns to at best losses to Lakers or Spurs int the WCF.

Kidd's best teammates - Richard Jefferon, Kenyon Martin, Kerry Kittles
Nash's best teammates - Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson

If you were to but Kidd on those Sun's teams (even without Nash's shooting, because Kidd would bring rebounding and defense that Nash couldn't), I'd argue that they may have won it all.

However, put Nash on those Nets teams and they don't even get to the ECF.

Celtics33
12-27-2012, 02:22 AM
Nash is probably the best conditioned athlete in the history of the NBA.

THE MTL
12-27-2012, 03:34 AM
:facepalm:

:facepalm: you for facepalming. (If you think that ur facepalm was warranted then you DONT know basketball).

Its a huge discussion.

NYSpirit1
12-27-2012, 03:37 AM
Kidd had a great statistical game tonight. I wonder if he can do this on a consistent basis with Felton out.

People don't clamor that D'Antoni will have Nash playing 40 minutes a night, but when Kidd has to play 30-35 for a month, it's a problem.

Jiggie
12-27-2012, 03:45 AM
What am I talking about?

Kidd's averaging 8 points, 4 rebounds and 4 assists.

That's a far cry from when he averaged 14-18 points, 9-10 assists and 6-7 rebounds.

The point was that Nash will probably still put up 13-14 points and 10-11 assists a game still, evidenced by last year.

Kidd doesn't put up elite numbers anymore. That's what the thread was about and I thought it was curious because they're about the same age.

This isn't fantasy basketball; Your post makes it seem like you don't watch, nor understand the game, only the Stat Sheet. Nash and Kidd are two totally different players, who serve two completely different purposes for their respective teams and will end up play different positions this year, and probably for the rest of their career. Comparing them on stats, and offensive only statistics at that is also dumb, sorry.

noodle
12-27-2012, 03:55 AM
This thread is dumb. Really, really dumb.