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View Full Version : Why are defensive players ranked so low?



Stuckey#3
12-23-2012, 06:56 PM
I was going through some "all time" lists online (PSD, Basketball Reference, Slam, etc.) and noticed that most of the best defensive players of all time get no love. Rodman is never ranked higher than 55. Ben Wallace never breaks 90 and Mutumbo barely breaks the top 100. If defense wins championships then why no respect? Also these three players account for a third of the DPOY since it's conception (10 of 30). Compared to textbook offensive players (Miller, Thompson, King) they get straight up shafted.

Ebbs
12-23-2012, 07:00 PM
Because defense isn't easily quantified. You can't look at the number of jump shots contested or good footwork cutting a man off from the basket the same way you can look at points.

tredigs
12-23-2012, 07:25 PM
Because nobodies ever bought a ticket to go see Tony Allen's perimeter defense.

Also, most of the top 50 players were elite on both ends.

ee
12-23-2012, 07:55 PM
Needs to be on both ends or at least be average offensively....

abe_froman
12-23-2012, 08:02 PM
because defense equals championships is just a saying and not an actual fact? (seriously,that is the most overrated and overused sports cliche in history).its just something that coaches tell players to get them motivated enough to at least give effort on that side....that and most players can do both(score and play d)

Sactown
12-23-2012, 08:03 PM
Many top 50 players play both sides of the ball...

JasonJohnHorn
12-23-2012, 08:05 PM
In all honestly, at the end of the game, the team who scored the most points wins. I think that, in turn, casual fans, and even in a lot of instances guys who really follow the game, put high scorers ahead of defender. Like Sidney Moncrief, Michael Cooper and Alvin Robertson... there guys were amazing defenders, but none of them scored muhc. Cooper was a huge part of the reason the Lakers won as many titles as they did in the 80's. But with Magic, Worthy and Kareem scoring all the points, people tend to forget about his influence on the game, I think in part because it doesn't show up in the stat sheet.

People might point to Dennis Rodman and say: Hey, the HOF recognizes great defenders. But really, the HOF wouldn't have inducted Rodman if he wasn't also the greatest rebounder since Wilt retired (and perhaps of all time). Rodman's rebounding shows up in the stat line. Cooper's defence didn't.

Likewise, we will likely not see Bruce Bowen in the HOF, or ranking on anybody top 100 of all-time, even though it could be argued that he was the best wing defender in the league during his prime, and everybody on those Spurs teams will tell you how important Bowen was to their winning.

When people rank top players, stats have a did influence, same with HOF voting, and while guys who contribute defensively will find a job in the NBA, they will have a hard time coverting casual fans into true believers.

Also, there are guys who can really get the job done at a high level on both ends of the floor, so guys with more humble over-all stats and great defence will often be looked over.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-23-2012, 08:10 PM
Because they dont score a lot of points.

Scoring is the most important aspect in NBA basketball:rolleyes:

Stuckey#3
12-23-2012, 10:55 PM
Cooper was a huge part of the reason the Lakers won as many titles as they did in the 80's. But with Magic, Worthy and Kareem scoring all the points, people tend to forget about his influence on the game, I think in part because it doesn't show up in the stat sheet.

So if you look at championship teams historically and switch certain top 50-100 players out what do you come up with? If you take worthy away and replace him with a number of guys near his level do the Lakers still dominate? In the case of Ben Wallace no. Big Ben won the Pistons a championship. At the time there was no one else even close to being able to do what he did on the defensive end. I think the same could be said for a number of average offensive guys who slayed on defense.

Chill_Will_24
12-23-2012, 11:00 PM
I do not know but i wish there were a more quantifiable way to judge defense.

Nets fans are convinced that Brook Lopez is 10x the player Omer Asik is when in fact i think i would rank them about equal with me personally taking Omer because i value defense more but i wish there were some better stats to judge defense and prove that a defensive player can be justr as good as an offensive one

b@llhog24
12-24-2012, 12:15 AM
I was going through some "all time" lists online (PSD, Basketball Reference, Slam, etc.) and noticed that most of the best defensive players of all time get no love. Rodman is never ranked higher than 55. Ben Wallace never breaks 90 and Mutumbo barely breaks the top 100. If defense wins championships then why no respect? Also these three players account for a third of the DPOY since it's conception (10 of 30). Compared to textbook offensive players (Miller, Thompson, King) they get straight up shafted.

Because it doesn't.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-24-2012, 12:26 AM
Because nobodies ever bought a ticket to go see Tony Allen's perimeter defense.

Also, most of the top 50 players were elite on both ends.

This

Alayla
12-24-2012, 09:36 AM
Defense is just brutally underrated

Alayla
12-24-2012, 09:40 AM
Because nobodies ever bought a ticket to go see Tony Allen's perimeter defense.

Also, most of the top 50 players were elite on both ends.

I disargee wanna know why im happy the sixers picked Jrue holiday over ty lawson?
6.4 body with great defensive instincts he drasticly changes the game on that end of the court.

i find marion
Iggy (now that he isnt on the sixers lol)
KG
Ibaka
Lowry
Holiday
Allen
and shumpert
to be very fun to watch Defense is more fun than people think once you actually open your eyes and pay attention to it.
its incredible to watch the effort that some players bring to that end much more intense than dribbling around and putting up a shot or trying to force a dunk/layup.

Tyson Chandler is a joy to watch as well that whole time during/atfer Dallas's championship run while people where going on and on about how great Dirk was i was busy watching and being amazed by how simply adding tyson chandler transformed there defense and how many mistakes he cleaned up on a nightly basis it was mind boggling.

looka09
12-24-2012, 10:06 AM
So you're saying that elite defensive players have the same impact on the team like Lebron,Kobe,Durant,Melo and other elite offensive players and scorers? Thats impossible.Its the same with football(soccer).When you see a defensive player in top 10 or top 5 all time?

Alayla
12-24-2012, 11:33 AM
So you're saying that elite defensive players have the same impact on the team like Lebron,Kobe,Durant,Melo and other elite offensive players and scorers? Thats impossible.Its the same with football(soccer).When you see a defensive player in top 10 or top 5 all time?

Those 2 are also great on the Defensive end. not really fair

and i dont know man gimmie Michael Cooper in his prime over durant im sorry.
the Rodman over guys like Griffen or Dirk Payton over Nash. I like when players Give effort on D you can say the game is about scoring points all you want but its also about stoping the other team from scoring as many as you do
Theres nothing good about being a 20 PPG scorer if u give it right back on the other end.

Btw when its all said and done given the ball enough any player in the NBA can score or they wouldn't be in the NBA it takes heart awareness and physical tools to defend well. Not everyone has that

NBAfan4life
12-24-2012, 01:03 PM
Those 2 are also great on the Defensive end. not really fair

and i dont know man gimmie Michael Cooper in his prime over durant im sorry.
the Rodman over guys like Griffen or Dirk Payton over Nash. I like when players Give effort on D you can say the game is about scoring points all you want but its also about stoping the other team from scoring as many as you do
Theres nothing good about being a 20 PPG scorer if u give it right back on the other end.

Btw when its all said and done given the ball enough any player in the NBA can score or they wouldn't be in the NBA it takes heart awareness and physical tools to defend well. Not everyone has that

You should be sorry, Durant is playing D this year as well as being one of the most efficient scorers the league has seen.

ChickenSouvlaki
12-24-2012, 01:30 PM
In the NBA more often than not great offence trumps great defence.

For example, you put Andre Iguodala on Kevin Durant and theres still a very good chance Durant will go for 30. Its not because Iggy isnt a good defender (He's great in fact) but because that is the nature of the game and how its called.

Defence in the NBA seems like its more about slowing people down or containing them rather than actually stopping anyone.