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View Full Version : What was the Biggest Trade Mistake and/or Draft Mistake in your Franchise's History?



JordansBulls
12-18-2012, 05:05 PM
What was the Biggest Trade Mistake and/or Draft Mistake in your Franchise's History?

When I say Draft Mistake it means you past up on someone that you could have drafted.

TheSource
12-18-2012, 05:06 PM
Trading away McGrady, trading away Carter for basically nothing.

Drafting Bargnani over Brandon Roy, Rondo, etc.

alexander_37
12-18-2012, 05:07 PM
Trading rudy Gay for Shane Battier.

seikou8
12-18-2012, 05:09 PM
where do i start:(:facepalm:

GunFactor187
12-18-2012, 05:10 PM
Darko, end of story, lol.

topdog
12-18-2012, 05:21 PM
Ray Allen for Stephon Marbury. Ray actually wanted to be in Minnesota... :sigh:

GiantsSwaGG
12-18-2012, 05:23 PM
Kwame Brown

Rylz
12-18-2012, 05:24 PM
Trading Dominique Wilkins right after the 1982 draft...

dh144498
12-18-2012, 05:25 PM
trading Vlade for 13th pick.

NYtilIdie
12-18-2012, 05:26 PM
Gimmie a minute.

TheTreys
12-18-2012, 05:27 PM
Knicks drafting Michael Sweetney in 2003. Horrible player

NYYCowboys
12-18-2012, 05:31 PM
Frederic Weis

MrfadeawayJB
12-18-2012, 05:46 PM
Thabust

Baller1
12-18-2012, 05:50 PM
Robert Swift, Johan Petro, and Mohammed Sene. :puke:

Baller1
12-18-2012, 05:51 PM
Thabust

He's going to be a solid NBA center.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-18-2012, 05:59 PM
he's going to be a solid nba center.

lol!!!!

Celtics33
12-18-2012, 06:08 PM
Trading Joe Johnson, Chauncey Billups, and Antoine Walker.

JordansBulls
12-18-2012, 06:09 PM
Trading rudy Gay for Shane Battier.

I thought about that the other and asked myself why did the Rockets do that? Did they feel they had enough with Yao and Tmac and didn't want another young player or what?

Muttman73
12-18-2012, 06:12 PM
Tyrus Thomas

#Shumpert Up
12-18-2012, 08:28 PM
renaldo balkman over rondo.

bigsams50
12-18-2012, 08:35 PM
Drafting Adam Morrison over Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay.

Traded a 1st for Tyrus. **** were we thinking

DreamShaker
12-18-2012, 08:41 PM
Trading rudy Gay for Shane Battier.

Yeah. That was bad. Love Battier, but it is tough to watch Gay knowing he was drafted by us.

homestarunner93
12-18-2012, 08:46 PM
Adam ****ing Morrison

DreamShaker
12-18-2012, 08:55 PM
I thought about that the other and asked myself why did the Rockets do that? Did they feel they had enough with Yao and Tmac and didn't want another young player or what?

They did. Battier was awesome as a glue guy and filled that immediate need. Plus Gay was considered passive. I still hated the move.

Verbal Christ
12-18-2012, 09:12 PM
not giving up ralph sampson for the pick that would have netted MJ.

hakeem + michael ??? nasty.

JordansBulls
12-19-2012, 12:20 AM
Trading Dirk for Tractor Traylor

JasonJohnHorn
12-19-2012, 03:15 AM
As a Raptors fan? The entire Coangelo era has been horrid. Hibbert for O'Neal? Passing up on Granger?

As a Pistons fan, obvious answer is Darko.

dee279
12-19-2012, 03:29 AM
not giving up ralph sampson for the pick that would have netted MJ.

hakeem + michael ??? nasty.

I think thAts Thread for the Rockets. No more Rockets fan can say anything. This is the winner people.

dee279
12-19-2012, 03:33 AM
For the Heat and 2003 being my starting point as a heat fan, M. Beasley would have to be my choice. I mean i really wanted Beasley but we could have gotten Westbrook, OJ Mayo, Brook Lopez(meh), K Love. Some other guys who could still be on the team. Westbrook, Wade, and Lebron... :drool:

ChongInc.
12-19-2012, 03:35 AM
Rafael Ara˙jo

Bowman53
12-19-2012, 04:04 AM
Warriors trading away Chris Webber, but that happened because of a stubborn Don Nelson.

Baller1
12-19-2012, 12:38 PM
lol!!!!

Great input.

LongWayFromHome
12-19-2012, 12:58 PM
For the Heat and 2003 being my starting point as a heat fan, M. Beasley would have to be my choice. I mean i really wanted Beasley but we could have gotten Westbrook, OJ Mayo, Brook Lopez(meh), K Love. Some other guys who could still be on the team. Westbrook, Wade, and Lebron... :drool:

I believe the HEAT had to move Beasley to sign the Big 3. So any of those other guys you mentioned would have had the same contract if drafted second.

dee279
12-19-2012, 01:17 PM
I believe the HEAT had to move Beasley to sign the Big 3. So any of those other guys you mentioned would have had the same contract if drafted second.

So you really think if Beasley was putting up 20-10 like he was supposed to, he would have been traded? Sure wouldnt have been for 2nd round picks. Beasley just didnt fit in the future plans because he wasnt playing well. And notice i didnt put Chris Bosh in my before comment. I said Westbrook, Wade, and Lebron. Or Wade, Lebron, and K Love. I am sure we could have afforded him still though since we still had money to sign Haslem, and Mike Miller.

b_russ
12-19-2012, 02:03 PM
"Trading for Howard." - Laker Fans

blazerman
12-19-2012, 02:57 PM
Without a doubt the Blazers can claim the biggest trade mistake(s) in history.

I was in 7th grade and the Pres. of the Blazers (Bucky Buckwalter) came to my school and of course 95% of the school choose the sports career so with a packed gym at Rockwood M.S. in Gresham Or, we all sat there listening to him tell us about everything other than a sports career.
Finally someone got him talking about the draft and at the time we hadnt lost the coin toss for the rights to the #1 pick anyway if the Blazers lost the flip with the Rockets then the Blazers were interested in Sam Bowie out of Kentucky and he gushed about his 7'7" wingspan and how he was so great.
Well I raised my hand and he pointed to me and I stood up and said Sam Bowie sucked because I watched alot of college basketball and Mel Turpin was the one that carried Kentucky and Bowie was always injured.
Then I told him if the Blazers lost the coin flip they should choose Micheal Jordan and move Drexler to the SF(back in those days you had scoring tandems that like Alex English/Vandeweghe) also Jordan was the best player in the draft besides Olajuwon.

Well I got ripped by Buckwalter first, he said, "I thinkk I know a little more about basketball than you do and Bowie was our guy if the Blazers lose the coin toss", then a lot of people were laughing because they thought Buckwalter had clowned me.
Well I today I think I can say Bucky Buckwalter your an idiot and you definitely were not smarter than a 7th grader and it was obvious MJ was the better choice.

Sam Bowie over Micheal Jordan

Mycheal Thompson over Larry Bird

Greg Oden over Kevin Durant (I admit I was in favor of Oden)

Damn these blunders still sting

rockbottom2010
12-19-2012, 03:05 PM
rafael araujo

Minimal
12-19-2012, 04:16 PM
Drafting Beasley and signing Jermaine O'Neal:facepalm:

imbetterthanyou
12-19-2012, 04:19 PM
The Maloofs

True Sports Fan
12-19-2012, 04:20 PM
He's going to be a solid NBA center.

Not when you consider the fact that he was drafted over Harden, Curry, Rubio, Holiday, Lawson and a few others. Mistakes like that happen though, it's just apart of the game.

Mr.SmackYoMama
12-19-2012, 04:23 PM
Without a doubt the Blazers can claim the biggest trade mistake(s) in history.

I was in 7th grade and the Pres. of the Blazers (Bucky Buckwalter) came to my school and of course 95% of the school choose the sports career so with a packed gym at Rockwood M.S. in Gresham Or, we all sat there listening to him tell us about everything other than a sports career.
Finally someone got him talking about the draft and at the time we hadnt lost the coin toss for the rights to the #1 pick anyway if the Blazers lost the flip with the Rockets then the Blazers were interested in Sam Bowie out of Kentucky and he gushed about his 7'7" wingspan and how he was so great.
Well I raised my hand and he pointed to me and I stood up and said Sam Bowie sucked because I watched alot of college basketball and Mel Turpin was the one that carried Kentucky and Bowie was always injured.
Then I told him if the Blazers lost the coin flip they should choose Micheal Jordan and move Drexler to the SF(back in those days you had scoring tandems that like Alex English/Vandeweghe) also Jordan was the best player in the draft besides Olajuwon.

Well I got ripped by Buckwalter first, he said, "I thinkk I know a little more about basketball than you do and Bowie was our guy if the Blazers lose the coin toss", then a lot of people were laughing because they thought Buckwalter had clowned me.
Well I today I think I can say Bucky Buckwalter your an idiot and you definitely were not smarter than a 7th grader and it was obvious MJ was the better choice.

Sam Bowie over Micheal Jordan

Mycheal Thompson over Larry Bird

Greg Oden over Kevin Durant (I admit I was in favor of Oden)

Damn these blunders still sting

Not to be a D1ck but I think this story is fabricated :D

rocket
12-19-2012, 04:25 PM
Darko ****ing Milicic

chocolayo
12-19-2012, 04:33 PM
The Wizards picks for the last decade other than John Wall.....

canzano55
12-19-2012, 04:37 PM
Without a doubt the Blazers can claim the biggest trade mistake(s) in history.

I was in 7th grade and the Pres. of the Blazers (Bucky Buckwalter) came to my school and of course 95% of the school choose the sports career so with a packed gym at Rockwood M.S. in Gresham Or, we all sat there listening to him tell us about everything other than a sports career.
Finally someone got him talking about the draft and at the time we hadnt lost the coin toss for the rights to the #1 pick anyway if the Blazers lost the flip with the Rockets then the Blazers were interested in Sam Bowie out of Kentucky and he gushed about his 7'7" wingspan and how he was so great.
Well I raised my hand and he pointed to me and I stood up and said Sam Bowie sucked because I watched alot of college basketball and Mel Turpin was the one that carried Kentucky and Bowie was always injured.
Then I told him if the Blazers lost the coin flip they should choose Micheal Jordan and move Drexler to the SF(back in those days you had scoring tandems that like Alex English/Vandeweghe) also Jordan was the best player in the draft besides Olajuwon.

Well I got ripped by Buckwalter first, he said, "I thinkk I know a little more about basketball than you do and Bowie was our guy if the Blazers lose the coin toss", then a lot of people were laughing because they thought Buckwalter had clowned me.
Well I today I think I can say Bucky Buckwalter your an idiot and you definitely were not smarter than a 7th grader and it was obvious MJ was the better choice.

Sam Bowie over Micheal Jordan

Mycheal Thompson over Larry Bird

Greg Oden over Kevin Durant (I admit I was in favor of Oden)

Damn these blunders still stingThat's a good story.

Miltstar
12-19-2012, 04:43 PM
Too many as a raps fan. Araujo, joey graham, bargnani, Vince trade, letting TMac go, jermaine O'Neal,

RenegadeRiot36
12-19-2012, 04:45 PM
Drafting Luke Jackson/Believing that ***** Boozer would sign a deal if they declined his option

killersweet
12-19-2012, 04:58 PM
Trading away McGrady, trading away Carter for basically nothing.

Drafting Bargnani over Brandon Roy, Rondo, etc.

We didn't trade McGrady. He just walked away free. Same with Bosh. We got nothing in return for both of them.
Vince trade was a huge debacle.
Drafting Arujo over Iggy.
The list can go on!

Hawkeye15
12-19-2012, 05:02 PM
Ray Allen for Stephon Marbury. Ray actually wanted to be in Minnesota... :sigh:

ugh. I hate being a Wolves fan at times.

blazerman
12-20-2012, 12:15 AM
Not to be a D1ck but I think this story is fabricated :D

No I dont think your a d1ck for thinkin that because I probable knew more about basketball in the 7th grade than you do now!

I wouldnt make something up to be included in a thread, I watched alot of college basketball and I was a huge Georgetown hoya's fan because of P Ewing and Houston Cougars because of Phi Slamma Jamma in the early 80's and North Carolina and NC State beat both of the teams I liked in back to back yrs but I saw enough games of the Tarheels to see how clutch Worthy and Jordan both were and I'd have taken either one of them.

Sh1t i'd have taken Sam Perkins of NC over Bowie at the time.

long ball
12-20-2012, 12:21 AM
Trading Dirk for Tractor Traylorthis.

Ray Allen for Gary Payton sucked too.

DubbyDubbs
12-20-2012, 12:40 AM
Raptors... oh boy. Rafael Araujo. Trading Hibbert for Jermaine Oneal (half a season). Letting Vince, Tmac and Bosh go for essentially nothing. Drafting Bargnani is turning out to be poop mcgoop but at the time no one would have taken Rondo #1 or Gay likely for that matter. It was a weak draft where Roy turned out injury prone and Adam Morrison sucked donkey dong (but won two ships ;))

JordansBulls
12-23-2012, 04:14 PM
Darko ****ing Milicic

Wouldn't say it was a big mistake considering the year you drafted him you won the title.

mrblisterdundee
12-23-2012, 05:31 PM
1. Drafting Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan
2. Drafting Moses Malone and trading him for the draft rights to Rick Robey
3. Drafting Wally Walker over Robert Parrish
4. Dafting LaRue Martin over Bob McAdoo or Julius Erving
5. Drafting Greg Oden over Kevin Durant
6. Trading the third pick in 2005 for the sixth pick, drafting Martell Webster instead of potential Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Andrew Bynum and a host of others
7. Trading Jermaine O'Neal for Dale Davis
8. Drafting Barry Parkhill over George McGinnis
...

My team is the worst in NBA history at drafts/trades. They're lucky they have a fervent fan base.

Bruno
12-23-2012, 05:43 PM
in retrospect or at the time of the decision?

if it's in retrospect, passing on Manu Ginobli would be pretty high up there on most teams lists.

Lord Leoshes
12-23-2012, 07:00 PM
Not trading down from the 2nd pick (Beasley) to MEM for the 5pick (love), & 28th pick.
Then trade the 28th pick to MIN for the 31st pick (Nicola Pekovic), & the 34th pick (Deandre Jordan).
& then buy the 35 pick to get Mario Chalmers.

todu82
12-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Drafting Darko instead of Wade, Anthony or Bosh

rocket
12-23-2012, 07:57 PM
Wouldn't say it was a big mistake considering the year you drafted him you won the title.

so what? how does that excuse the mistake of drafting him. rather have dwade bosh melo than him

StarvingKnick22
12-23-2012, 08:40 PM
where do i start:(:facepalm:

Name some.

IIISSKiLL
12-23-2012, 08:56 PM
For the Heat and 2003 being my starting point as a heat fan, M. Beasley would have to be my choice. I mean i really wanted Beasley but we could have gotten Westbrook, OJ Mayo, Brook Lopez(meh), K Love. Some other guys who could still be on the team. Westbrook, Wade, and Lebron... :drool:

westbrook, wade, lebron ? no thanks. k love, wade, lebron

IIISSKiLL
12-23-2012, 09:04 PM
Drafting Beasley and signing Jermaine O'Neal:facepalm:

we never signed o'neal we traded him for shawn marion. I thought marion had a future on this team but his contract was running up before the big free agency class so riley let him go for what some people(including you) think was dumb. In fact it was far from dumb because O'neal's contract was up a year after marion and we had enough cap to sign Wade, Bosh, and LeBron. Jermaine O'Neal was the best thing that ever happened to Miami

Bigbadmoffo
12-23-2012, 09:24 PM
Not trading down from the 2nd pick (Beasley) to MEM for the 5pick (love), & 28th pick.
Then trade the 28th pick to MIN for the 31st pick (Nicola Pekovic), & the 34th pick (Deandre Jordan).
& then buy the 35 pick to get Mario Chalmers.

I never understood why Love fell to 5th the guy was a beast in college.

nolin
12-23-2012, 10:36 PM
trading Vlade for 13th pick.

wel atleast that 13th pick was a bust

Stuckey#3
12-23-2012, 10:58 PM
Darko... And trading Chauncey instead of Rip or Tay.

kobe4thewinbang
12-27-2012, 06:42 PM
These two articles make good arguments for both sides of the trade, but I still think the Lakers practically gave Shaq away.

Anti-Trade:

http://www.thewannabesportsguy.com/2010/07/bad-trade-los-angeles-lakers-shaq-for-lamar-odom-and-caron-butler/

Pro-Trade:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/14/on-amazing-ripple-effects-of-the-2004-shaq-trade/

jraygoza
12-27-2012, 06:52 PM
Im a Clipper fan we have nearly 30 years of bad mistakes

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=clippers/090624

lol

TheIlladelph16
12-27-2012, 07:32 PM
Sixers drafting Larry Hughes in the Top 10 when Dirk and Paul Pierce went right after him was terrible, but Shawn Bradley going No. 2 in 1993 was also bad. They didn't miss out on anyone great in that draft though, so I'd go with Larry Hughes.

We are also the team that traded away both Wilt and Barkley for what amounted to pretty much nothing.

CaptainClutch
12-27-2012, 07:38 PM
In most recent times.......the Gerald Wallace trade.

JordansBulls
01-01-2013, 09:09 PM
so what? how does that excuse the mistake of drafting him. rather have dwade bosh melo than him

Because the franchise didn't suffer because of it. Pistons still made another 5 Conference finals in a row including winning a title.

aussie
01-01-2013, 10:52 PM
trading Vlade for 13th pick.

ouch

*Silver&Black*
01-01-2013, 10:57 PM
Didn't Hawks draft then trade Bill Russell? Ouch.

Jdawg
01-02-2013, 04:06 AM
For the Spurs, trading Scola's rights away to the Rockets for nothing...

nacdaddy
01-02-2013, 04:24 AM
For the Spurs, trading Scola's rights away to the Rockets for nothing...

nothing? yall got some cash and sponoulis i think thats how you spell it. ha!

nacdaddy
01-02-2013, 04:26 AM
eddie griffin. i mean rest in peace guy. but three first rounders for that guy was pretty damn dumb

Monta is beast
01-02-2013, 04:31 AM
Without a doubt the Blazers can claim the biggest trade mistake(s) in history.

I was in 7th grade and the Pres. of the Blazers (Bucky Buckwalter) came to my school and of course 95% of the school choose the sports career so with a packed gym at Rockwood M.S. in Gresham Or, we all sat there listening to him tell us about everything other than a sports career.
Finally someone got him talking about the draft and at the time we hadnt lost the coin toss for the rights to the #1 pick anyway if the Blazers lost the flip with the Rockets then the Blazers were interested in Sam Bowie out of Kentucky and he gushed about his 7'7" wingspan and how he was so great.
Well I raised my hand and he pointed to me and I stood up and said Sam Bowie sucked because I watched alot of college basketball and Mel Turpin was the one that carried Kentucky and Bowie was always injured.
Then I told him if the Blazers lost the coin flip they should choose Micheal Jordan and move Drexler to the SF(back in those days you had scoring tandems that like Alex English/Vandeweghe) also Jordan was the best player in the draft besides Olajuwon.

Well I got ripped by Buckwalter first, he said, "I thinkk I know a little more about basketball than you do and Bowie was our guy if the Blazers lose the coin toss", then a lot of people were laughing because they thought Buckwalter had clowned me.
Well I today I think I can say Bucky Buckwalter your an idiot and you definitely were not smarter than a 7th grader and it was obvious MJ was the better choice.

Sam Bowie over Micheal Jordan

Mycheal Thompson over Larry Bird

Greg Oden over Kevin Durant (I admit I was in favor of Oden)

Damn these blunders still sting

You straight up spent like 10 minutes coming up with this fake *** story?

tp13baby
01-02-2013, 05:09 AM
Drafting Raef Lafrentz over guys like Paul Pierce, Dirk, and Nash.

Kyben36
01-02-2013, 05:15 AM
Trading Tyrus thomas for a Charlote 1st round pick (protected)

ohh wait, this is worst, nevermind

Luzern Walker
01-02-2013, 05:26 AM
Ewing to Magic :confused:

SanAntonioSpurs23
01-02-2013, 10:22 AM
Trading away Luis Scola
Trading FOR Richard Jefferson.

BullsFTW
01-02-2013, 12:51 PM
Trading LMA for Tyrus. I've like LMA coming out of Texas. But I don't think we would've gotten Rose, so it's all good.

JordansBulls
01-02-2013, 07:36 PM
Ewing to Magic :confused:

He was pretty much done by that time though.

Lab Rat Robby
01-02-2013, 07:57 PM
i second the scola trade with my spurs homies. also drafting james anderson kinda sucked. i can't recall off the top of my head but i've looked it up before and we missed on somebody. we were really early by spurs draft range standards that year and i always think man there had to be somebody we missed on. that might have been a good year to pull a patriots and trade down or into another year.

JWO35
01-02-2013, 07:58 PM
Drafting Darko 10yrs ago is the reason we suck.... Drafting Darko(over Wade, Melo, etc.) and then trading him for a 1st round pick(later to be Rodney Stuckey) which ultimately made us trade Billups for Iverson(expired contract) which made us sign Ben Gordon & Charlie Villanueva :facepalm:

naps
01-02-2013, 08:01 PM
I believe the HEAT had to move Beasley to sign the Big 3. So any of those other guys you mentioned would have had the same contract if drafted second.

NO. Beasley was moved to make room for Mike Miller.

mjt20mik
01-02-2013, 08:03 PM
Arujo drafted instead of Iggy.
Graham drafted instead of Granger.
Letting McGrady walk.
Trading Carter for a pick and 3 scrubs.
Bargnani drafted instead of Aldridge.

Lab Rat Robby
01-02-2013, 08:11 PM
i second the scola trade with my spurs homies. also drafting james anderson kinda sucked. i can't recall off the top of my head but i've looked it up before and we missed on somebody. we were really early by spurs draft range standards that year and i always think man there had to be somebody we missed on. that might have been a good year to pull a patriots and trade down or into another year.


looked it up again... the spurs were pick 20 that year. 17 Seraphin 18 Bledsoe 19 Bradley we could have easily traded up for one of them. i remember i liked bradley cause he went to ut and had the tx connection. seraphin coulda had the french connection with parker. man i can't imagine the altered timeline if we'd gotten bledsoe. 25 dominique jones 27 jordan crawford 28 greivis vasquez. lots of decent combo guards that year.

naps
01-02-2013, 08:15 PM
Because the franchise didn't suffer because of it. Pistons still made another 5 Conference finals in a row including winning a title.

What kind of logic is that? Are you suggesting that Pistons wouldn't go even farther with someone like Wade? Let's just put 2005 to 2006 Wade in that roster and have Rip Hamilton come off the bench to back him up. What makes you think they could do more than conference finals with Wade? You make it sound like they won multiple championships even with Darko.

netsgiantsyanks
01-02-2013, 08:17 PM
any draft between nenad kristic and brook lopez.

Trueblue2
01-03-2013, 05:05 AM
These two articles make good arguments for both sides of the trade, but I still think the Lakers practically gave Shaq away.

Anti-Trade:

http://www.thewannabesportsguy.com/2010/07/bad-trade-los-angeles-lakers-shaq-for-lamar-odom-and-caron-butler/

Pro-Trade:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/14/on-amazing-ripple-effects-of-the-2004-shaq-trade/

We probably could have gotten Nash/Jamison/Waker for him. It would have given Dallas a championship with Dirk, Finley, and Shaq but the Lakers would have been solid as hell. Malone and Payton probably would have stuck around another season, Derek Fisher would have for sure still been around. Even Fox and/or Russell might have signed on for another year if the Dallas trade went down.

They could have very easily looked like this.

Nash/Payton/Vujacic
Kobe/Fisher/A.Walker/Vujacic
George/Fox/Russel
Jamison/Malone
Grant/Divac


That would have been entertaining to watch and even after Malone/Payton/Fox/Russell leave Jamison/Kobe/Nash would still be a hell of a core to build around.

JordansBulls
01-06-2013, 05:42 PM
What kind of logic is that? Are you suggesting that Pistons wouldn't go even farther with someone like Wade? Let's just put 2005 to 2006 Wade in that roster and have Rip Hamilton come off the bench to back him up. What makes you think they could do more than conference finals with Wade? You make it sound like they won multiple championships even with Darko.
I'm not saying they wouldn't go further, I am just saying it isn't as bad a mistake simply because the Pistons still had success. There are other teams that lacked success simply because of the move or draft pick they made.

ThaDubs
01-06-2013, 06:21 PM
Getting rid of Chris Webber.