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305 till I die
12-16-2012, 11:14 AM
I gotta go with Lebron and KD, both guys are getting their shots at will, LeBron more efficiently, but KD's FT shooting helps balance it out.

JasonJohnHorn
12-16-2012, 11:21 AM
Yeah... I think it's between these two as well...

BoSox47
12-16-2012, 11:32 AM
KD is the better pure shooter, 3 point shooter. lebron is better at getting to the basket.

BklynKnicks3
12-16-2012, 11:33 AM
Melo is this a serious question

xxplayerxx23
12-16-2012, 11:48 AM
I have to go with the melo homer. I'd say with all the ways he can score ill give him the slight edge over Durant.

Greedy22
12-16-2012, 11:51 AM
Durant, Melo/Kobe

LongIslandIcedZ
12-16-2012, 11:56 AM
Durant

Lebron

Melo

bloomis1307
12-16-2012, 12:12 PM
Melo KD Lebron Kobe

HouRealCoach
12-16-2012, 12:14 PM
Durant, LeBron, & Melo

Sly Guy
12-16-2012, 12:14 PM
can't leave melo out of this the way he's playing this year.

RocketLoc80
12-16-2012, 12:15 PM
I don`t get it Lebron is the best player in the league but he`s a weak scorer?

Manimal
12-16-2012, 12:18 PM
Melo, Kobe and KD.

Minimal
12-16-2012, 12:20 PM
IMO LeBron is the best scorer in the NBA, Durant is just slightly behind him. I believe LeBron could average around 32 PPG if he wanted too. He can score in a lot of ways and do that really effectively. However he is sticking to be more of a team player and do everything he can on both ends of the floor.

BoSox47
12-16-2012, 12:23 PM
IMO LeBron is the best scorer in the NBA, Durant is just slightly behind him. I believe LeBron could average around 32 PPG if he wanted too. He can score in a lot of ways and do that really effectively. However he is sticking to be more of a team player and do everything he can on both ends of the floor.

kevin durant, melo could both up their ppg. but like lebron their other aspects of game would suffer a little more

305 till I die
12-16-2012, 12:24 PM
Yeah people who say LeBron is a weak scorer simply don't watch him enough.

Will 2 BE
12-16-2012, 12:25 PM
Melo is a better scorer than Lebron. Lebron is a better all around player (rebounding, passing, defense) But Melo is the more complete scorer.

Durant is TMac 2.0 from the Orlando days probaly has the most ungaurdable jumpshot in the game.

yaswaggin
12-16-2012, 12:26 PM
1. KD
2. Lebron
3. Melo

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 12:27 PM
1 - Carmelo Anthony

Can score well in every way possible, including his ability to attack the glass.

2 - Kobe Bryant

Has the most moves in the game. Also can score well in every way possible, but his age doesn't let him do certain things as consistently as he used to. Is back to getting to the rim a lot, leading to his 8.9 FTA per game.

3 - Kevin Durant

His game is evolving very well, he's adding things every year. He's starting to develop a consistent post game, which can catapult him to the top. He's already the most efficient scorer in the NBA, even if part of that is due to Westbrook breaking down defenses as well as he does. His shooting game is unmatched, just completely on a legendary level. He'll be number one on this list sooner than later.

HR - LeBron James

He has become a much better scorer over the years, especially in adding his post game. This year his 3 point percentage has been really good, although it likely won't stay as high as it is. Might be heading to a career high regardless. On the other hand he isn't even shooting 70% from the line, and isn't getting to the line nearly as much as he used to. Only 6 FTA per game for LeBron sounds extremely weird, and likely won't stay that low. His offensive game is much more limited than the previous three, but that's because he is far more athletically gifted and hasn't needed as much as them. He's not on their level as a scorer, but he does more than alright for himself in that regard.

yaswaggin
12-16-2012, 12:28 PM
Melo is a better scorer than Lebron. Lebron is a better all around player (rebounding, passing, defense) But Melo is the more complete scorer.

Durant is TMac 2.0 from the Orlando days probaly has the most ungaurdable jumpshot in the game.

Melo may have more tools to score such as a better post game, but lebron is way more efficient

Jint.
12-16-2012, 12:29 PM
Sir Carmelo McAnthony III

RocketLoc80
12-16-2012, 12:29 PM
1 - Carmelo Anthony

Can score well in every way possible, including his ability to attack the glass.

2 - Kobe Bryant

Has the most moves in the game. Also can score well in every way possible, but his age doesn't let him do certain things as consistently as he used to. Is back to getting to the rim a lot, leading to his 8.9 FTA per game.

3 - Kevin Durant

His game is evolving very well, he's adding things every year. He's starting to develop a consistent post game, which can catapult him to the top. He's already the most efficient scorer in the NBA, even if part of that is due to Westbrook breaking down defenses as well as he does. His shooting game is unmatched, just completely on a legendary level. He'll be number one on this list sooner than later.

HR - LeBron James

He has become a much better scorer over the years, especially in adding his post game. This year his 3 point percentage has been really good, although it likely won't stay as high as it is. Might be heading to a career high regardless. On the other hand he isn't even shooting 70% from the line, and isn't getting to the line nearly as much as he used to. Only 6 FTA per game for LeBron sounds extremely weird, and likely won't stay that low. His offensive game is much more limited than the previous three, but that's because he is far more athletically gifted and hasn't needed as much as them. He's not on their level as a scorer, but he does more than alright for himself in that regard.

Ok this is just like twisted logic? So Lebron is a limited offensive player but he`s the best player in the world? Which one is it?

yaswaggin
12-16-2012, 12:32 PM
1 - Carmelo Anthony

Can score well in every way possible, including his ability to attack the glass.

2 - Kobe Bryant

Has the most moves in the game. Also can score well in every way possible, but his age doesn't let him do certain things as consistently as he used to. Is back to getting to the rim a lot, leading to his 8.9 FTA per game.

3 - Kevin Durant

His game is evolving very well, he's adding things every year. He's starting to develop a consistent post game, which can catapult him to the top. He's already the most efficient scorer in the NBA, even if part of that is due to Westbrook breaking down defenses as well as he does. His shooting game is unmatched, just completely on a legendary level. He'll be number one on this list sooner than later.

HR - LeBron James

He has become a much better scorer over the years, especially in adding his post game. This year his 3 point percentage has been really good, although it likely won't stay as high as it is. Might be heading to a career high regardless. On the other hand he isn't even shooting 70% from the line, and isn't getting to the line nearly as much as he used to. Only 6 FTA per game for LeBron sounds extremely weird, and likely won't stay that low. His offensive game is much more limited than the previous three, but that's because he is far more athletically gifted and hasn't needed as much as them. He's not on their level as a scorer, but he does more than alright for himself in that regard.

Ok this is just like twisted logic? So Lebron is a limited offensive player but he`s the best player in the world? Which one is it?

Offensive game doesn't equal overall game.....

Also I put lebron over melo because he's more efficient even though he had less tools to score with

ManRam
12-16-2012, 12:32 PM
This is the first time that a "Carmelo Anthony" answer doesn't completely perplex me.

Him, LeBron and KD.

Jesse2272
12-16-2012, 12:32 PM
Melo is the best pure scorer in the leauge followed by Durant

Lebron is the best allaround player

RocketLoc80
12-16-2012, 12:34 PM
Melo is the best pure scorer in the leauge followed by Durant

Lebron is the best allaround player

Ok So who`s the best overall player in the league?

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 12:35 PM
Ok this is just like twisted logic? So Lebron is a limited offensive player but he`s the best player in the world? Which one is it?

LeBron has more limitations as a scorer than those three. That still makes him the 4th best scorer in the NBA. It's not LeBron's scoring that makes him the best player in the NBA, it's his entire package of skills.

MonroeFAN
12-16-2012, 12:36 PM
Lebron, Melo, KD, Harden, Kobe, no particular order... although it's difficult not putting one of Lebron or Melo in the 1st slot.

yaswaggin
12-16-2012, 12:38 PM
Ok this is just like twisted logic? So Lebron is a limited offensive player but he`s the best player in the world? Which one is it?

LeBron has more limitations as a scorer than those three. That still makes him the 4th best scorer in the NBA. It's not LeBron's scoring that makes him the best player in the NBA, it's his entire package of skills.

Only thing melo has on lebron is better free throw shooter and post game

Lebron has better career 3 pt percentage while take an average of 4 attempts a game compared to melo's 2.6 surprisingly

RocketLoc80
12-16-2012, 12:40 PM
Only thing melo has on lebron is better free throw shooter and post game

Lebron has better career 3 pt percentage while take an average of 4 attempts a game compared to melo's 2.6 surprisingly

That`s is what I am sayingbut people think that the game is just about scoring and looking like a beauty pagent to do it>? This ain`t American idol man. They just don`t want to give Lebron any credit and still upset about the year he had last year.

Minimal
12-16-2012, 12:41 PM
I just don't understand guys who say Melo or Kobe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2013&p2=anthoca01&y2=2013&p3=duranke01&y3=2013&p4=jamesle01&y4=2013

Look at FG% and FGA, now use your logic.

Jesse2272
12-16-2012, 12:43 PM
ok so who`s the best overall player in the league?

lbj

STA_PLAR
12-16-2012, 12:44 PM
LeBron is the Best Player period.

But as far as offense goes...Melo has a much better all around scoring game then Lebron and Durant.

His inside game is better than Durants and outside game is better than Lebrons.

However, Durants outside game is slightly better than Melo's but not by far. Melo's post game and tip ins, offensive rebounding is crazy. He is a beast on the block.

Im going to be honest though. LeBron is the best OVERALL player since Mike. He should get MVP every year.

Things dont work that way in the NBA. KD is first in MVP bc of his record. Melo is a close 2nd bc of his team record.

The team with the better record in April will earn their best player the MVP.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 12:50 PM
Only thing melo has on lebron is better free throw shooter and post game

Lebron has better career 3 pt percentage while take an average of 4 attempts a game compared to melo's 2.6 surprisingly

Melo has a huge spike in 3PT% about 4 years ago. This year he has made a concentrated effort to shoot 3s instead of long twos, and as a result he's shooting 45% on 5.3 attempts per game.

Melo has a better mid range game, better jump shot in general, a better post game, is better on the offensive glass and is better with and 1s and FTs. LeBron is better at driving, finishing at the rim and WAY better in transition.

LeBron averages 6 points per game in transition, which leads the NBA. That's a huge reason for his incredibly high FG%, and it's a credit to him. But that doesn't help when you're in the half court, which is where he falls short of those three.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 12:51 PM
This is still an argument?

The back to back to back scoring champ who is currently putting up 27.5 ppg on a 65% TS% (50/40/90) is the best scorer in the NBA.

Jesse2272
12-16-2012, 12:53 PM
I believe the thread is about the best scorer not who wins the scoring title or who is the best player

Melo with his offensive skill set is clearly the best

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 12:57 PM
This is still an argument?

The back to back to back scoring champ who is currently putting up 27.5 ppg on a 65% TS% (50/40/90) is the best scorer in the NBA.

Melo and Kobe haven't been on their A game for an entire season the past two years. So yes, the past two years Durant has been the best scorer. Melo and Kobe are back on their A game, so it's a bit different.

Those three are in their own group though, it's not like they are blowing each other away.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 12:57 PM
I believe the thread is about the best scorer not who wins the scoring title or who is the best player

Melo with his offensive skill set is clearly the best

Then why has he never put in more buckets than KD at a higher efficiency? Or any other scoring title holder for that matter? Certainly isn't the fact that he loses chances by passing.


Melo and Kobe haven't been on their A game for an entire season the past two years. So yes, the past two years Durant has been the best scorer. Melo and Kobe are back on their A game, so it's a bit different.

Those three are in their own group though, it's not like they are blowing each other away.

The problem is that his A+ game is not as good as Durant's. See: This year.

Jesse2272
12-16-2012, 12:59 PM
I voted based on skill set and the ways he can hurt you not amount of shots and eff Im not voting Melo the best player

tredigs
12-16-2012, 01:03 PM
I voted based on skill set and the ways he can hurt you not amount of shots and eff Im not voting Melo the best player

Gotchya.

So you're voting for 'the best all around offensive skill set in the NBA' (AKA you think he has more weapons in his arsenal, although may not be as skilled with some of them as our top scorers), NOT 'The Best Scorer' period.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 01:03 PM
Then why has he never put in more buckets than KD at a higher efficiency? Or any other scoring title holder for that matter? Certainly isn't the fact that he loses chances by passing.



The problem is that his A+ game is not as good as Durant's. See: This year.

This year Durant is third in scoring, so far...

Minimal
12-16-2012, 01:03 PM
Would anyone take a player who shoots 47% with 20 FGA, over a player who shoots 54% with 18.5 FGA?

tredigs
12-16-2012, 01:07 PM
This year Durant is third in scoring, so far...

Correct. And on less field goal attempts than any of the top 7 scorers (10th in FGA overall). He doesn't even take the most shots on his own team.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 01:08 PM
Would anyone take a player who shoots 47% with 20 FGA, over a player who shoots 54% with 18.5 FGA?

If that first player could dominate any defense in the half court, while the other player heavily relies on transition play? Then yeah, I would, purely from a scoring standpoint. It also helps when that first player gets to the line a lot more, and is also way more efficient at the line.

ManRam
12-16-2012, 01:09 PM
I still don't get what "pure" scorer means.

Why do we think that a guy takes 19.3 shots a game to score 24.7 points a game than the guy who takes 20.3 a game to score 27.6? Why is the career 45.7% shooter considered the better "pure scorer" than the career 48.5% shooter? Or the career 54.5 TS% more impressive than the 57%? And so on.

I don't care HOW these guys score, I just care about the end result, and LeBron's efficiency lately is just astronomically better than just about ever other "pure" scorer we talk about (KD withstanding to an extent). He's been the best scorer, "pure" or not, for a while now (again, KD has nipped at his heals...perhaps overtaken him).

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 01:11 PM
Correct. And on less field goal attempts than any of the top 7 scorers. He doesn't even take the most shots on his own team.

Exactly. Taking less shots does wonders for your FG%, and he doesn't have the same burden of having to score as much as Melo and Kobe currently do. Right now Melo and Kobe have to take all of the bad shots, where as OKC has three scorers you can go to with the shot clock winding down.

He also has Westbrook breaking down defenses, like he does, where as Kobe has had Chris Duhon as his set up man and Melo has had Felton. It's a lot easier to lock your defense on Melo and Kobe, since they don't have much in terms of scoring threats after them right now. Durant has Westbrook and Martin, that makes it easier to be efficient too.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 01:12 PM
I still don't get what "pure" scorer means.

Why do we think that a guy takes 19.3 shots a game to score 24.7 points a game than the guy who takes 20.3 a game to score 27.6? Why is the career 45.7% shooter considered the better "pure scorer" than the career 48.5% shooter? Or the career 54.5 TS% more impressive than the 57%? And so on.

I don't care HOW these guys score, I just care about the end result, and LeBron's efficiency lately is just astronomically better than just about ever other "pure" scorer we talk about (KD withstanding to an extent). He's been the best scorer, "pure" or not, for a while now (again, KD has nipped at his heals...perhaps overtaken him).

? KD's scored more than Lebron on a higher efficiency for years now.

The list is:

1. Durant

2. Lebron

3. Melo/Kobe

K Love, Westbrook, Rose, and soon to be Kyrie Irving and Curry are in the next tier.

ManRam
12-16-2012, 01:16 PM
? KD's scored more than Lebron on a higher efficiency for years.

I was going at Melo, trying not to talk about KD...because that's a trickier debate. I think they're 1A and 1B right now...with KD pulling ahead (if he hasn't already, which could easily be argued so).

However, without looking up the stats, I thought KD and LeBron's shooting stats were pretty damn identical the last 3 or so year. TS% both around 60, and LeBron probably winning the eFG% battle (considering how that stat tends to skew).

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 01:17 PM
I still don't get what "pure" scorer means.

Why do we think that a guy takes 19.3 shots a game to score 24.7 points a game than the guy who takes 20.3 a game to score 27.6? Why is the career 45.7% shooter considered the better "pure scorer" than the career 48.5% shooter? Or the career 54.5 TS% more impressive than the 57%? And so on.

I don't care HOW these guys score, I just care about the end result, and LeBron's efficiency lately is just astronomically better than just about ever other "pure" scorer we talk about (KD withstanding to an extent). He's been the best scorer, "pure" or not, for a while now (again, KD has nipped at his heals...perhaps overtaken him).

Because it has been proven over the years that if you take the transition game away from LeBron, and can add a bonus of keeping him out of the pain, his efficiency takes a massive nose dive. Right now he's scoring 6 of his 25 PPG in transition.

When you're an athletic freak like LeBron you're going to steam roll the weak teams/defenders simply by over matching them. When the elite defenses come in you need to have an arsenal, and an excellent half court game, to beat them. LeBron's scoring has gotten much better, especially last year in adding the post game, but it's still not on the level of those three.

lol, please
12-16-2012, 01:17 PM
Curry.

Jesse2272
12-16-2012, 01:19 PM
Gotchya.

So you're voting for 'the best all around offensive skill set in the NBA' (AKA you think he has more weapons in his arsenal, although may not be as skilled with some of them as our top scorers), NOT 'The Best Scorer' period.

Yes atleast thats how I took the OP

ManRam
12-16-2012, 01:19 PM
Because it has been proven over the years that if you take the transition game away from LeBron, and can add a bonus of keeping him out of the pain, his efficiency takes a massive nose dive. Right now he's scoring 6 of his 25 PPG in transition.

When you're an athletic freak like LeBron you're going to steam roll the weak teams/defenders simply by over matching them. When the elite defenses come in you need to have an arsenal, and an excellent half court game, to beat them. LeBron's scoring has gotten much better, especially last year in adding the post game, but it's still not on the level of those three.

Again. Why does it matter HOW he does it? The results are what matters. Scoring in transition is something he does better than just about everyone else...why is that a bad thing? I'll take the scorer who finds easy buckets over the scorer who consistently has to take tougher ones :shrug:

Minimal
12-16-2012, 01:21 PM
Because it has been proven over the years that if you take the transition game away from LeBron, and can add a bonus of keeping him out of the pain, his efficiency takes a massive nose dive. Right now he's scoring 6 of his 25 PPG in transition.

When you're an athletic freak like LeBron you're going to steam roll the weak teams/defenders simply by over matching them. When the elite defenses come in you need to have an arsenal, and an excellent half court game, to beat them. LeBron's scoring has gotten much better, especially last year in adding the post game, but it's still not on the level of those three.
Tell me. Who gives a **** how the player scores? As soon as he scores its all good. If Blake Griffin would have been scoring 40PPG with good FG% only on dunks or layups I would still call him the best scorer.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 01:22 PM
I was going at Melo, trying not to talk about KD...because that's a trickier debate. I think they're 1A and 1B right now...with KD pulling ahead (if he hasn't already, which could easily be argued so).

However, without looking up the stats, I thought KD and LeBron's shooting stats were pretty damn identical the last 3 or so year. TS% both around 60, and LeBron probably winning the eFG% battle (considering how that stat tends to skew).

I hear ya. It's been close but the nod for me in that debate definitely has to go to the 3x reigning scoring champ if his efficiency is as good or better than the next guy. And you're right eFG generally leans Lebron, though even there this year and last year KD's caught up. 'Bron's gotta fix that 65% shooting from the line he's working with this year though. He's a wreck right now.

Steelers23_06
12-16-2012, 01:31 PM
Are you guys serious its still Kobe all day even though his team struggling he's still putting up great numbers. Im the biggest lebron fan in the world lol but he's not a better scorer better overall player? Yes scorer? No. Get it?

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-16-2012, 01:33 PM
Melo
Durant
Kobe
Top 3 easily

meloman1592
12-16-2012, 01:39 PM
Homerism aside, it's melo, then Kobe. Durant and lebron are more efficient but the variety of moves, proper footwork and the use of a post game gives melo and kobe the edge

ManRam
12-16-2012, 01:40 PM
Are you guys serious its still Kobe all day even though his team struggling he's still putting up great numbers. Im the biggest lebron fan in the world lol but he's not a better scorer better overall player? Yes scorer? No. Get it?

No. I don't get it.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 01:44 PM
Homerism aside, it's melo, then Kobe. Durant and lebron are more efficient but the variety of moves, proper footwork and the use of a post game gives melo and kobe the edge

OK.

Just to get a clear take on this side of the argument-from Melo/Kobe fans as one of those two being best scorer:


Better scorer in their prime: Shaquille O'Neal or Grant Hill?

tredigs
12-16-2012, 01:55 PM
That's your standing 8 count. On to football -- >

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 01:58 PM
OK.

Just to get a clear take on this side of the argument-from Melo/Kobe fans as one of those two being best scorer:


Better scorer in their prime: Shaquille O'Neal or Grant Hill?

Not a good example, one is a C and one is a swingman. Also, Grant Hill never had close to the scoring output Shaq had. It's not like we're talking Kevin Martin over LeBron.

Let me put it this way. There has been 8 40-point games this year. Kobe has 3 of them, no one else has 2. He leads the NBA in scoring by a comfortable margin, has a very efficient shooting line and is doing this with a team that is extremely challenged offensively, and has had three different systems in 24 games.

You can easily make the case that he has been the best scorer this year, by far. I decided to give Melo the nod because of Kobe's age, and how that has limited him some ways.

Minimal
12-16-2012, 02:05 PM
Not a good example, one is a C and one is a swingman. Also, Grant Hill never had close to the scoring output Shaq had. It's not like we're talking Kevin Martin over LeBron.

Let me put it this way. There has been 8 40-point games this year. Kobe has 3 of them, no one else has 2. He leads the NBA in scoring by a comfortable margin, has a very efficient shooting line and is doing this with a team that is extremely challenged offensively, and has had three different systems in 24 games.

You can easily make the case that he has been the best scorer this year, by far. I decided to give Melo the nod because of Kobe's age, and how that has limited him some ways.
No, he had 1 system in those 24 games. It's called "Shoot, Kobe, Shoot!"

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 02:06 PM
Tell me. Who gives a **** how the player scores? As soon as he scores its all good. If Blake Griffin would have been scoring 40PPG with good FG% only on dunks or layups I would still call him the best scorer.

If anyone was scoring 40 PPG in any way I'm pretty sure they would be called the best scorer.

Ridiculous examples aside, that is not the case. Not only is LeBron not scoring 40 PPG, but he's 4th in scoring overall. He's a safe margin behind Durant at 3, and Harden is right behind him.

And yes, the fact that LeBron scores 6 of his 25 PPG in transition, the most in the NBA, matters. That means if you control the pace and keep TOs down you take out a huge chunk of his scoring arsenal. This is what the Knicks do, and it's the reason they have owned Miami.

NYMetros
12-16-2012, 02:07 PM
? KD's scored more than Lebron on a higher efficiency for years now.

In which years are you referencing?

In 2012:
James: 53.1%, 27.1 PPG
Durant: 49.6%, 28.0 PPG

2011:
James: 51%, 26.7 PPG
Durant: 46.2% 27.7 PPG

LeBron's been more efficient and scored basically the same amount.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 02:08 PM
No, he had 1 system in those 24 games. It's called "Shoot, Kobe, Shoot!"

More power to him if his game transcends any system, eh? :eyebrow:

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-16-2012, 02:08 PM
I don't know, guys like Kobe or Melo can still score 30-40 and gets like only 6 or 7 FTAs. Although KD is talented, a lot of times, I see him drop 30-35 via 13-15+ FTAs.


My point is that Kobe and Melo can dominate the game even if they weren't attempting that many free throws. Durant still seems like a guy who gets a lot of bailout calls and will have a nice 35 pt night, but it'll take him about 13-15 FTAs.


Durant is a hell of a scorer, but I still give the edge to Melo and Old Man Bryant.

FriedTofuz
12-16-2012, 02:17 PM
melo is the best scorer in the NBA

ChiSox219
12-16-2012, 02:20 PM
This is still an argument?

The back to back to back scoring champ who is currently putting up 27.5 ppg on a 65% TS% (50/40/90) is the best scorer in the NBA.

No argumet


I don't know, guys like Kobe or Melo can still score 30-40 and gets like only 6 or 7 FTAs. Although KD is talented, a lot of times, I see him drop 30-35 via 13-15+ FTAs.


My point is that Kobe and Melo can dominate the game even if they weren't attempting that many free throws. Durant still seems like a guy who gets a lot of bailout calls and will have a nice 35 pt night, but it'll take him about 13-15 FTAs.


Durant is a hell of a scorer, but I still give the edge to Melo and Old Man Bryant.

Getting to the is one of the key components to being a great scorer. Jordan had many 20+ FT nights, thats a skill not "getting bailed out".

Chronz
12-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Not a good example, one is a C and one is a swingman. Also, Grant Hill never had close to the scoring output Shaq had. It's not like we're talking Kevin Martin over LeBron.

Let me put it this way. There has been 8 40-point games this year. Kobe has 3 of them, no one else has 2. He leads the NBA in scoring by a comfortable margin, has a very efficient shooting line and is doing this with a team that is extremely challenged offensively, and has had three different systems in 24 games.

You can easily make the case that he has been the best scorer this year, by far. I decided to give Melo the nod because of Kobe's age, and how that has limited him some ways.

Ewing or Shaq?

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-16-2012, 02:32 PM
Getting to the is one of the key components to being a great scorer. Jordan had many 20+ FT nights, thats a skill not "getting bailed out".

Have you seen Kevin Durant play?

Just because he's very lanky and weak looking, if he's knocked off balance just a little while penetrating, he'll get the call his way.

Phil Jackson even brought this up when the Lakers faced OKC in the 1st rd of 2010.

Twins Fanatic
12-16-2012, 02:33 PM
KD, LeBron, Kobe, then Melo

Chronz
12-16-2012, 02:36 PM
I still don't get what "pure" scorer means.

Why do we think that a guy takes 19.3 shots a game to score 24.7 points a game than the guy who takes 20.3 a game to score 27.6? Why is the career 45.7% shooter considered the better "pure scorer" than the career 48.5% shooter? Or the career 54.5 TS% more impressive than the 57%? And so on.

I don't care HOW these guys score, I just care about the end result, and LeBron's efficiency lately is just astronomically better than just about ever other "pure" scorer we talk about (KD withstanding to an extent). He's been the best scorer, "pure" or not, for a while now (again, KD has nipped at his heals...perhaps overtaken him).

It means you have to ignore overall offensive efficiency and focus on how they fare when asked to create their own with little time remaining. Otherwise known as the toilet possession (I think?), its not as important as being a better offensive player in general but there is value in it.

Like back when Tmac was losing his legs and could no longer dominate lesser athletes all game, what he still retained was that ability to create a quality look (relative to the amount of time left) with no plays and nothing but intuition and talent.

Its a low% shot and something you dont want your offense to rely on but when an offensive possession has been stymied, having bailout guys can help. Thats more in line with what I think people are looking at when discussing pure scorers.

I wonder how far they take it tho, like is Jamal Crawford a better pure scorer than Bron? Was Big Dog?

Chronz
12-16-2012, 02:36 PM
Have you seen Kevin Durant play?

Just because he's very lanky and weak looking, if he's knocked off balance just a little while penetrating, he'll get the call his way.

Phil Jackson even brought this up when the Lakers faced OKC in the 1st rd of 2010.

But a FT is worth a FT no matter who shoots it. So why are you valuing it differently?

beliges
12-16-2012, 02:39 PM
Durant, melo and Kobe all have much better all around offensive games than LBJ. But lebron is much bigger, stronger.quicker and more athletic than those guys.

ChiSox219
12-16-2012, 02:44 PM
Have you seen Kevin Durant play?

Just because he's very lanky and weak looking, if he's knocked off balance just a little while penetrating, he'll get the call his way.

Phil Jackson even brought this up when the Lakers faced OKC in the 1st rd of 2010.

Yes I have seen Durant play, likely a lot more often and closer up than you:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74097244@N00/5241668621/


The reason KD is knocked off balance is because he's 6'10/235 with the speed and quickness of a guard. When you move with that kind of force, the only way you get stopped is by getting hit, just check his at rim percentages.

Ebbs
12-16-2012, 02:46 PM
In some order:

LeBron, KD, Melo

ChiSox219
12-16-2012, 02:46 PM
It means you have to ignore overall offensive efficiency and focus on how they fare when asked to create their own with little time remaining. Otherwise known as the toilet possession (I think?), its not as important as being a better offensive player in general but there is value in it.

Like back when Tmac was losing his legs and could no longer dominate lesser athletes all game, what he still retained was that ability to create a quality look (relative to the amount of time left) with no plays and nothing but intuition and talent.

Its a low% shot and something you dont want your offense to rely on but when an offensive possession has been stymied, having bailout guys can help. Thats more in line with what I think people are looking at when discussing pure scorers.

I wonder how far they take it tho, like is Jamal Crawford a better pure scorer than Bron? Was Big Dog?

By that definition I vote James Harden, his ft rate in that kind of situation is really high.

THE MTL
12-16-2012, 02:47 PM
Once you said Lebron was a better scorer than Melo. this thread lost credibility.

Sactown
12-16-2012, 02:56 PM
Once you said Lebron was a better scorer than Melo. this thread lost credibility.

Lebrons more efficient and they score nearly the same amount of points :eyebrow: doesn't seem like there's lost credibility there.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-16-2012, 03:00 PM
But a FT is worth a FT no matter who shoots it. So why are you valuing it differently?

My definition of best scorer is who has the best offensive repertoire. KD gets A LOT of his points from the FT line, and he still has a post-game to develop (which Melo and Kobe have already mastered). I'll give KD the category of shooting as he's a far superior shooter than both of those guys. He has a nice floater. But really, that's about it.

So for me, best scorer needs to include repertoire.

SACNYY
12-16-2012, 03:03 PM
Kobe Bryant

tredigs
12-16-2012, 03:05 PM
Once you said Lebron was a better scorer than Melo. this thread lost credibility.

Absolutely agree. The player who has consistently scored less on worse efficiency through nearly a decade long career must - and I do mean MUST - be considered the better scorer than the other scrub.

And @ whoever it was who considered Shaq's scoring discrepancy too much to matter that he can't score in a multitude of ways like a prime Grant Hill, I have to ask at what point does the fact that one guy scores more on better efficiency than the other no longer matter to you and you'll agree that the one with a more well rounded (but worse peaks) offensive skill set makes the better scorer?

You guys are making it too difficult on yourself to try to argue a lesser scorer as the better scorer. If you score more on better efficiency, you are a better scorer. Today. Yesterday. And tomorrow.


My definition of best scorer is who has the best offensive repertoire. KD gets A LOT of his points from the FT line, and he still has a post-game to develop (which Melo and Kobe have already mastered). I'll give KD the category of shooting as he's a far superior shooter than both of those guys. He has a nice floater. But really, that's about it.

So for me, best scorer needs to include repertoire.

Only he scores from 9 feet in more and on better efficiency than Kobe/Melo as well.

THE MTL
12-16-2012, 03:08 PM
Lebrons more efficient and they score nearly the same amount of points :eyebrow: doesn't seem like there's lost credibility there.

And Tyson Chandler scores about half the amount of pts as Lebron and Melo, while taking 1/3 of the shots and shooting 72%. I guess that makes him a better scorer too.

Look at the shots the player is taking. Lebron James has a questionable mid-range game and his three pt shooting cannot hold a candle to Melo's. Lebron James scores because he does what he does best and thats penetrate with an occasional jumpshot/3pter.

Kobe, Melo, and Durant are considered better scorers because they have far more skillset. They also take "low-percentage" shots but can still hit them at a decent clip.

If Lebron James took the same shots as Melo/Kobe, his FG% (efficiency) would be far lower than the 45% that Melo/Kobe manage. But if Melo/Kobe, took more shots like Lebron their efficiency wouldnt change because they can already score like Lebron.

mjt20mik
12-16-2012, 03:11 PM
Melo hands down.

ChiSox219
12-16-2012, 03:12 PM
My definition of best scorer is who has the best offensive repertoire. KD gets A LOT of his points from the FT line, and he still has a post-game to develop (which Melo and Kobe have already mastered). I'll give KD the category of shooting as he's a far superior shooter than both of those guys. He has a nice floater. But really, that's about it.

So for me, best scorer needs to include repertoire.

Do you know Synergy has KD ranked #1 in post up scoring?

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 03:14 PM
Question.

Do some of you guys understand the difference between skill and production? Lemme break that down a bit further for those who don't comprehend, what I'm saying still. Do some of you guys understand the difference between having a better offensive repertoire and being a better scorer? They aren't the same you know.

DodgerPride000
12-16-2012, 03:14 PM
LOL at people saying Lebron!! haha best player? probably ... I still say my boy Kobe for reasons I am not going to discuss ... but anyways ... best scorer? not even close ... heck, I'd say Monta Ellis is a better scorer then Lebron ... @ the guy who said lebron could average 32 if he wanted too ... well Kobe could average 50 if he really wanted too ... to answer the question ... Melo, Durant, and Bryant are easily the top 3 scorers .... not even close .... I'd say ... Bryant then Durant, then Melo ... then Westbrook, Harden, Monta Ellis, Klay Thompson ...

tredigs
12-16-2012, 03:17 PM
And Tyson Chandler scores about half the amount of pts as Lebron and Melo, while taking 1/3 of the shots and shooting 72%. I guess that makes him a better scorer too.

Look at the shots the player is taking. Lebron James has a questionable mid-range game and his three pt shooting cannot hold a candle to Melo's. Lebron James scores because he does what he does best and thats penetrate with an occasional jumpshot/3pter.

Kobe, Melo, and Durant are considered better scorers because they have far more skillset. They also take "low-percentage" shots but can still hit them at a decent clip.

If Lebron James took the same shots as Melo/Kobe, his FG% (efficiency) would be far lower than the 45% that Melo/Kobe manage. But if Melo/Kobe, took more shots like Lebron their efficiency wouldnt change because they can already score like Lebron.

Hahah try again bud. Lebron's career 3pt% > Melo's, and that's on a ton more 3 point attempts. I realize Melo's killing it from 3 right now, but Lebron's shooting 42.4% from 3 himself.

Go to HoopData if you want to look at their mid-range numbers. Of the high volume shooters in the league Lebron is very easily a top 10 mid-range shooter (been top 3 multiple years). And almost always better than Melo's.

Your eyes and hearts are lying to you guys. You can argue all you want, but you and your Melo sigs are wrong.

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 03:17 PM
And Tyson Chandler scores about half the amount of pts as Lebron and Melo, while taking 1/3 of the shots and shooting 72%. I guess that makes him a better scorer too.

Look at the shots the player is taking. Lebron James has a questionable mid-range game and his three pt shooting cannot hold a candle to Melo's. Lebron James scores because he does what he does best and thats penetrate with an occasional jumpshot/3pter.

Kobe, Melo, and Durant are considered better scorers because they have far more skillset. They also take "low-percentage" shots but can still hit them at a decent clip.

If Lebron James took the same shots as Melo/Kobe, his FG% (efficiency) would be far lower than the 45% that Melo/Kobe manage. But if Melo/Kobe, took more shots like Lebron their efficiency wouldnt change because they can already score like Lebron.

Do you think I can use facts to prove you wrong and no matter what I say you'd still have this completely misinformed opinion?

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 03:19 PM
LOL at people saying Lebron!! haha best player? probably ... I still say my boy Kobe for reasons I am not going to discuss ... but anyways ... best scorer? not even close ... heck, I'd say Monta Ellis is a better scorer then Lebron ... @ the guy who said lebron could average 32 if he wanted too ... well Kobe could average 50 if he really wanted too ... to answer the question ... Melo, Durant, and Bryant are easily the top 3 scorers .... not even close .... I'd say ... Bryant then Durant, then Melo ... then Westbrook, Harden, Monta Ellis, Klay Thompson ...

Please stay in the dodgers forum this is no place for you, you're just going to make this forum even worse than it already is :)

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 03:21 PM
Hahah try again bud. Lebron's career 3pt% > Melo's, and that's on a ton more 3 point attempts. I realize Melo's killing it from 3 right now, but Lebron's shooting 42.4% from 3 himself.

Go to HoopData if you want to look at their mid-range numbers. Of the high volume shooters in the league Lebron is very easily a top 10 mid-range shooter (been top 3 multiple years). And almost always better than Melo's.

Your eyes and hearts are lying to you guys. You can argue all you want, but you and your Melo sigs are wrong.

I wish for this thread we can be allowed to post images I really don't think posting a link would help for these guys he really wouldn't be able to comprehend if we don't actually show them the pics and explain it to them.

Sactown
12-16-2012, 03:34 PM
I wish for this thread we can be allowed to post images I really don't think posting a link would help for these guys he really wouldn't be able to comprehend if we don't actually show them the pics and explain it to them.

Unfortunately you're not going to change his opinion.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 03:38 PM
Ewing or Shaq?

A better example, but still no dice. Ewing's output was never like Shaq's, so even with his larger repertoire it's no contest. Also the center position is a whole lot different than the wing player. Would you rather have a PG like Rondo, who scores 13 PPG or so and shoots 50%, but isn't a good jump shooter and can't hit FTs? Or another PG with similar scoring output, but with a 45/40/85 shooting line?

If you did want to compare a center to Shaq though, you have to aim higher. The Kobe to Shaq's LeBron wouldn't be Ewing, or David Robinson, or even Hakeem. No, the Kobe to Shaq's LeBron would be Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Who is a better scorer, Kareem or Shaq? Much more interesting, huh? I'm going with Kareem.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2012, 03:44 PM
Durant, Melo/Kobe

Yup these three. Lebron is not a great scorer , he's just an unstoppable force.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 03:44 PM
A better example, but still no dice. Ewing's output was never like Shaq's, so even with his larger repertoire it's no contest. Also the center position is a whole lot different than the wing player. Would you rather have a PG like Rondo, who scores 13 PPG or so and shoots 50%, but isn't a good jump shooter and can't hit FTs? Or another PG with similar scoring output, but with a 45/40/85 shooting line?

If you did want to compare a center to Shaq though, you have to aim higher. The Kobe to Shaq's LeBron wouldn't be Ewing, or David Robinson, or even Hakeem. No, the Kobe to Shaq's LeBron would be Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Who is a better scorer, Kareem or Shaq? Much more interesting, huh? I'm going with Kareem.

VERY interesting.

... Until you realize that Kareem scored more on higher efficiency, and then realize you just **** all over your own point.

Laughing over here @ choosing the top scorer in NBA history as your underdog example. Bravo, that was a leap of faith.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2012, 03:47 PM
1 - Carmelo Anthony

Can score well in every way possible, including his ability to attack the glass.

2 - Kobe Bryant

Has the most moves in the game. Also can score well in every way possible, but his age doesn't let him do certain things as consistently as he used to. Is back to getting to the rim a lot, leading to his 8.9 FTA per game.

3 - Kevin Durant

His game is evolving very well, he's adding things every year. He's starting to develop a consistent post game, which can catapult him to the top. He's already the most efficient scorer in the NBA, even if part of that is due to Westbrook breaking down defenses as well as he does. His shooting game is unmatched, just completely on a legendary level. He'll be number one on this list sooner than later.

HR - LeBron James

He has become a much better scorer over the years, especially in adding his post game. This year his 3 point percentage has been really good, although it likely won't stay as high as it is. Might be heading to a career high regardless. On the other hand he isn't even shooting 70% from the line, and isn't getting to the line nearly as much as he used to. Only 6 FTA per game for LeBron sounds extremely weird, and likely won't stay that low. His offensive game is much more limited than the previous three, but that's because he is far more athletically gifted and hasn't needed as much as them. He's not on their level as a scorer, but he does more than alright for himself in that regard.

Good post

tredigs
12-16-2012, 03:48 PM
PS: The example you were looking for is Hakeem.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2012, 03:48 PM
I just don't understand guys who say Melo or Kobe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2013&p2=anthoca01&y2=2013&p3=duranke01&y3=2013&p4=jamesle01&y4=2013

Look at FG% and FGA, now use your logic.

Lebron is basically a pf . He better have great fg%

Captain Moroni
12-16-2012, 03:49 PM
Clearly melo Lebron Kobe and durrant can all be mentioned here.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 03:52 PM
VERY interesting.

... Until you realize that Kareem scored more on higher efficiency, and then realize you just **** all over your own point.

Laughing over here @ choosing the top scorer in NBA history as your underdog example. Bravo, that was a leap of faith.

Kareem's higher efficiency was due to his FT shooting, kind of like all three of these guys over LeBron. Kobe and Durant are in the high 80's, Melo is in the low 80's and LeBron is in the mid 60's.

Shaq's career FG% is a few points higher than Kareem's, just like LeBron's is vs Melo and Kobe, and a bit above Durant.

Kareem is the all time leader in scoring due to longevity, while he poured in points during his peak. Who does that sound like? Where is Kobe on the all time list again?

Tell me again how comparing Kobe and Kareem is that silly.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 03:54 PM
Kareem's higher efficiency was due to his FT shooting, kind of like all three of these guys over LeBron. Kobe and Durant are in the high 80's, Melo is in the low 80's and LeBron is in the mid 60's.

Shaq's career FG% is a few points higher than Kareem's, just like LeBron's is vs Melo and Kobe, and a bit above Durant.

Kareem is the all time leader in scoring due to longevity, while he poured in points during his peak. Who does that sound like? Where is Kobe on the all time list again?

Tell me again how comparing Kobe and Kareem is that silly.

Really? Because peak Kareem was a better scorer than peak Shaq and this is not peak Kobe.

Do you guys not think that the ability to draw contact and hit your FT's at a significantly higher rate than player B is not an absolutely HUGE part of scoring ability?

DitchDat
12-16-2012, 03:58 PM
Durant, Lebron and Melo.

And Kobe is still crafty as heck.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 04:03 PM
Really? Because peak Kareem was a better scorer than peak Shaq and this is not peak Kobe.

Do you guys not think that the ability to draw contact and hit your FT's at a significantly higher rate than player B is not an absolutely HUGE part of scoring ability?

I do think it's a big part of scoring.

Kobe and Durant are averaging nearly 9 FTA per game and shooting close to 90% at the line.

Melo is averaging a bit above 8 FTA per game and shooting a bit above 80%.

LeBron is averaging and 6 FTA per game and is shooting about 65% from the line.

Thanks for understanding.

KNICKSTAPE 914
12-16-2012, 04:04 PM
all of you miami homers are laughable...Lebron is probably the best OFFENSIVE player in the league, but not the best SCORER...that is between Kobe, Melo, and KD

NYMetros
12-16-2012, 04:04 PM
all of you miami homers are laughable...Lebron is probably the best OFFENSIVE player in the league, but not the best SCORER...that is between Kobe, Melo, and KD

Why is LeBron not as good a scorer as those 3? Please. Enlighten me.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 04:05 PM
I do think it's a big part of scoring.

Kobe and Durant are averaging nearly 9 FTA per game and shooting close to 90% at the line.

Melo is averaging a bit above 8 FTA per game and shooting a bit above 80%.

LeBron is averaging and 6 FTA per game and is shooting about 65% from the line.

Thanks for understanding.

Were you attempting to make a point with this post? And do realize that this is significantly lower than Lebron's career norm and that KD is the one I clearly stated as top scorer in the NBA.

The advantage of Melo's standard 80% shooting from the line to Lebron's 77% is not enough to overcome the fact that Lebron still ALWAYS has a higher TS% and obviously higher eFG% than him. Including this season even with his pathetic start from the line.

DodgerPride000
12-16-2012, 04:09 PM
Why is LeBron not as good a scorer as those 3? Please. Enlighten me.

u know what a scorer is right?

NYMetros
12-16-2012, 04:13 PM
u know what a scorer is right?

Someone that scores the ball. Duh. Which LeBron is very good at. Just because he does other things great too doesn't mean he isn't a scorer.

Minimal
12-16-2012, 04:13 PM
Gathered some stats for this season:


FG% TS% EFG% At Rim 3-9 Ft 10-15 Ft 16-23 Ft 3P% FT%
C. Anthony .473 .592 .536 .512 .217 .424 .460 .455 .808
K. Bryant .474 .599 .526 .692 .397 .432 .430 .382 .864
K. Durant .515 .650 .561 .709 .550 .581 .360 .439 .897
L. James .541 .601 .577 .782 .515 .417 .400 .424 .675

Durant and LeBron are 1A and 1B if we look at this stats carefully, while Kobe and Melo are far behind.

STA_PLAR
12-16-2012, 04:14 PM
Efficiency does not make you a better scorer. There were players who were more efficient than Jordan that doesnt mean they were better scorers.

I love those guys who use advance stats for their purpose. Like it or not ....right now its

1a/1b KD and Melo
2. Kobe
3. Lebron

Maybe it will change...

Please stop using career stats because in that case a prime Vince Carter was a better scorer than TMAC.

Players can have 1 or 2 bad seasons.

Bruno
12-16-2012, 04:15 PM
I just don't understand guys who say Melo or Kobe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2013&p2=anthoca01&y2=2013&p3=duranke01&y3=2013&p4=jamesle01&y4=2013

Look at FG% and FGA, now use your logic.

FG%?? that's archaic. do you upload youtube videos with baked potatoes as well?

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 04:17 PM
Were you attempting to make a point with this post? And do realize that this is significantly lower than Lebron's career norm and that KD is the one I clearly stated as top scorer in the NBA.

The advantage of Melo's standard 80% shooting from the line to Lebron's 77% is not enough to overcome the fact that Lebron still ALWAYS has a higher TS% and obviously higher eFG% than him. Including this season even with his pathetic start from the line.

You can make a case for Durant being the best scorer, same as Kobe and Melo. Those three are the class of scoring in the NBA right now. I want to see Durant's game get a bit more physical, since you can still take him out of the game with physicality if you're a good enough defender who's strong. That list is very small though, so it's usually not a problem.

If you want to use career as the mark how far back to you go? Since April Melo has been playing on a different level than he ever has. If you're going to draw back on that, why not draw back on LeBron before he added a post game last year? Or when you could throw JJ Barrea on him in the 4th of the Finals in the post and watch as he does nothing?

Do you not consider clutch scoring a factor as well? Melo has been the best last shot scorer of this generation. Kobe and Durant also never shy away from the moment.

If you had one possession, and a player couldn't pass, who would you want with the ball? Melo, Kobe or Durant would all be on top I would think. This is purely about scoring, and I don't see how anyone could say LeBron stacks up to those three.

tripleplay2007
12-16-2012, 04:19 PM
Kevin Durant. 3 scoring titles with Westbrook as his PG. Nuff' said.

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 04:20 PM
Fox hound do you understand there is a different between a players skill and a players ability to turn that skill into production?

KNICKSTAPE 914
12-16-2012, 04:22 PM
he is no where near the shooter that they are (free throws included) ... he is a better playmaker and better at attacking the basket and creating for his teammates...he is not a better scorer though, his jump shot is too inconsistent for you to crown him the best scorer in the league

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 04:22 PM
FG%?? that's archaic. do you upload youtube videos with baked potatoes as well?

The logic many of them are using is that Melo and Kobe are better scorers from the field than Durant. There is a reason why he used FG%.

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 04:26 PM
Question to all why isn't Dirk in this discussion? His jumper is arguably the best in the entire league in terms of volume scorers. He can MURDER you from anywhere on the floor if you're going to use the jump shot and offensive repertoire argument in favour of Melo and Kobe then Dirk should be ahead of them should his not?

He has the most automatic signature shot in the game today. Dirk should be your guys' pick.

I have no beef with Melo and Kobe being picked they are both solid picks but the reasonings behind some of you choosing them over KD is head scratching.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-16-2012, 04:28 PM
I think in 2-3 yrs, we'll be talking about James Harden for this topic.

jerellh528
12-16-2012, 04:28 PM
Scorer? Kobe, no flaw in his offensive arsenal. Arguably the most complete offensive skill set in nba history.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 04:31 PM
You can make a case for Durant being the best scorer, same as Kobe and Melo. Those three are the class of scoring in the NBA right now. I want to see Durant's game get a bit more physical, since you can still take him out of the game with physicality if you're a good enough defender who's strong. That list is very small though, so it's usually not a problem.

If you want to use career as the mark how far back to you go? Since April Melo has been playing on a different level than he ever has. If you're going to draw back on that, why not draw back on LeBron before he added a post game last year? Or when you could throw JJ Barrea on him in the 4th of the Finals in the post and watch as he does nothing?

Do you not consider clutch scoring a factor as well? Melo has been the best last shot scorer of this generation. Kobe and Durant also never shy away from the moment.

If you had one possession, and a player couldn't pass, who would you want with the ball? Melo, Kobe or Durant would all be on top I would think. This is purely about scoring, and I don't see how anyone could say LeBron stacks up to those three.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2013&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=1&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg



Melo = 11/37+ (<29% FG) in the last 2 seasons with less than 1 minute left and the game within 5 points. It's the highest volume of shots with one of the worst percentages. He has zero makes this year, so he doesn't make the 2013 top 65 list so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he has not taken any (which obviously he has). Lebron, KD, Chris Paul, Kyrie Irving. These are all excellent choices for your final minute execution.

Melo used to excel at it, but that trend died off.

Anything else I can dump on?

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 04:31 PM
You can make a case for Durant being the best scorer, same as Kobe and Melo. Those three are the class of scoring in the NBA right now. I want to see Durant's game get a bit more physical, since you can still take him out of the game with physicality if you're a good enough defender who's strong. That list is very small though, so it's usually not a problem.

If you want to use career as the mark how far back to you go? Since April Melo has been playing on a different level than he ever has. If you're going to draw back on that, why not draw back on LeBron before he added a post game last year? Or when you could throw JJ Barrea on him in the 4th of the Finals in the post and watch as he does nothing?

Do you not consider clutch scoring a factor as well? Melo has been the best last shot scorer of this generation. Kobe and Durant also never shy away from the moment.

If you had one possession, and a player couldn't pass, who would you want with the ball? Melo, Kobe or Durant would all be on top I would think. This is purely about scoring, and I don't see how anyone could say LeBron stacks up to those three.

When was the last time Carmelo won a scoring title? When was the last time Melo cracked 30 PPG for the entirety of a season?

If this is purely about scoring then how can't LeBron stack up to Melo? Its fine and dandy to be clutch but honestly if you ask me who I'd take between Melo and Shaq as a scorer I'd take Shaq every single time despite the fact that Melo is more reliable in the clutch. Hell Robert Horry is more reliable in the Clutch (he took clutch shots even with Kobe on the floor and would have done the same even if he played with Melo).

Right now you're grasping for straws trying to discredit LeBron. Had LeBron been on a team like the Knicks where he didn't have players like Bosh and Wade at his side and carried a greater scoring load he would average 30 easily especially with his improved offensive game. How on earth can someone say he doesn't stack up?

mngopher35
12-16-2012, 04:34 PM
I think some people are arguing different things. When I think better scorer I think who can put up a lot of points on good efficiency. That doesn't mean the most skilled offensively or anything. Just because you have the better skill doesn't make you the better scorer if you cant turn it into production. That said I think 1.Durant 2.Lebron 3.Melo 4. Kobe are the top 4 scorers in the league. Melo is killing it right now and if he keeps it up he may move ahead of james, but james has been the better scorer in the past and it's close now so I'll keep him ahead for now.

Stunner
12-16-2012, 04:36 PM
Melo Kobe KD then Lebron

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 04:41 PM
Fox hound do you understand there is a different between a players skill and a players ability to turn that skill into production?

Of course, but being that Kobe currently leads the league in scoring and has 3 of the 8 40-point games this year he's obviously not having that problem. Same with Melo, who has 1 of those 40-point games and is second in the NBA in scoring. Durant doesn't have a 40-point game yet, and is currently 3rd in scoring.

Do you not realize that teammates can play a big part in a players efficiency at times?

Kobe is working with very little help offensively, as his PG has been Steve Blake and Chris Duhon virtually all year, Pau when he played was extremely limited by his tendinitis and Dwight is extremely easy to take out of games by doubling him, not to mention he's not a great passer by any means.

Melo's 2nd best scorer has been Felton, JR Smith or Tyson Chandler depending on the night. He has had the benefit of the passing of the Felton and Kidd combo on the court together, but at the same time his scoring burden has been enormous until Amare gets back.

Durant has Westbrook as a scorer and a guy to break down the defense at an elite level, helping create easy looks for himself. He also has Martin, who is the best or second best scoring 6th man in the game, depending on how you feel about Jamal. Durant is scoring at an amazing efficient clip, as always, but he doesn't even lead his team in FGA. He is shooting about the same as Westbrook however, since obviously a shot that ends in two FTs is still a shot. But his scoring burden isn't nearly as high as those two, and it's a lot more difficult for defenses to focus on him since they also have to worry about Westbrook and his ability to break down the defense.

Shots with the shot clock winding down are probably the biggest detriment to a players efficiency, and Durant simply isn't in that position as much as Kobe or Melo right now.

Like I said, I don't think you can go wrong with either three. It really depends on your preference, and what you look for in a scorer.

KnicksorBust
12-16-2012, 04:44 PM
It's nice to see Melo living up to his potential and mentioned with the elite players again where he belongs. He's now back to being slightly overrated just the way I like it. Durant is just ridiculous though. :)

My list:

1. Durant
2. LeBron
3. Melo
4. Kobe

KnicksorBust
12-16-2012, 04:45 PM
Of course, but being that Kobe currently leads the league in scoring and has 3 of the 8 40-point games this year he's obviously not having that problem. Same with Melo, who has 1 of those 40-point games and is second in the NBA in scoring. Durant doesn't have a 40-point game yet, and is currently 3rd in scoring.

Do you not realize that teammates can play a big part in a players efficiency at times?

Kobe is working with very little help offensively, as his PG has been Steve Blake and Chris Duhon virtually all year, Pau when he played was extremely limited by his tendinitis and Dwight is extremely easy to take out of games by doubling him, not to mention he's not a great passer by any means.

Melo's 2nd best scorer has been Felton, JR Smith or Tyson Chandler depending on the night. He has had the benefit of the passing of the Felton and Kidd combo on the court together, but at the same time his scoring burden has been enormous until Amare gets back.

Durant has Westbrook as a scorer and a guy to break down the defense at an elite level, helping create easy looks for himself. He also has Martin, who is the best or second best scoring 6th man in the game, depending on how you feel about Jamal. Durant is scoring at an amazing efficient clip, as always, but he doesn't even lead his team in FGA. He is shooting about the same as Westbrook however, since obviously a shot that ends in two FTs is still a shot. But his scoring burden isn't nearly as high as those two, and it's a lot more difficult for defenses to focus on him since they also have to worry about Westbrook and his ability to break down the defense.

Shots with the shot clock winding down are probably the biggest detriment to a players efficiency, and Durant simply isn't in that position as much as Kobe or Melo right now.

Like I said, I don't think you can go wrong with either three. It really depends on your preference, and what you look for in a scorer.

Without looking, do you think Kobe was more effecient with Shaq or without him?

ChiSox219
12-16-2012, 04:53 PM
Of course, but being that Kobe currently leads the league in scoring and has 3 of the 8 40-point games this year he's obviously not having that problem. Same with Melo, who has 1 of those 40-point games and is second in the NBA in scoring. Durant doesn't have a 40-point game yet, and is currently 3rd in scoring.

Do you not realize that teammates can play a big part in a players efficiency at times?

Kobe is working with very little help offensively, as his PG has been Steve Blake and Chris Duhon virtually all year, Pau when he played was extremely limited by his tendinitis and Dwight is extremely easy to take out of games by doubling him, not to mention he's not a great passer by any means.

Melo's 2nd best scorer has been Felton, JR Smith or Tyson Chandler depending on the night. He has had the benefit of the passing of the Felton and Kidd combo on the court together, but at the same time his scoring burden has been enormous until Amare gets back.

Durant has Westbrook as a scorer and a guy to break down the defense at an elite level, helping create easy looks for himself. He also has Martin, who is the best or second best scoring 6th man in the game, depending on how you feel about Jamal. Durant is scoring at an amazing efficient clip, as always, but he doesn't even lead his team in FGA. He is shooting about the same as Westbrook however, since obviously a shot that ends in two FTs is still a shot. But his scoring burden isn't nearly as high as those two, and it's a lot more difficult for defenses to focus on him since they also have to worry about Westbrook and his ability to break down the defense.

Shots with the shot clock winding down are probably the biggest detriment to a players efficiency, and Durant simply isn't in that position as much as Kobe or Melo right now.

Like I said, I don't think you can go wrong with either three. It really depends on your preference, and what you look for in a scorer.

With 3 seconds or less on the shot:

Lebron has taken 16% of his shots with an eFG% of .585
Melo has taken 17% of his shots with an eFG% of .440
Kobe 11% of shots/.702 eFG%
KD 13% of shots/.599 eFG%

Carmelo hasn't taken that many more shots and Kobe has taken the fewest at the end of the shot clock.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 04:55 PM
Of course, but being that Kobe currently leads the league in scoring and has 3 of the 8 40-point games this year he's obviously not having that problem. Same with Melo, who has 1 of those 40-point games and is second in the NBA in scoring. Durant doesn't have a 40-point game yet, and is currently 3rd in scoring.

Do you not realize that teammates can play a big part in a players efficiency at times?

Kobe is working with very little help offensively, as his PG has been Steve Blake and Chris Duhon virtually all year, Pau when he played was extremely limited by his tendinitis and Dwight is extremely easy to take out of games by doubling him, not to mention he's not a great passer by any means.

Melo's 2nd best scorer has been Felton, JR Smith or Tyson Chandler depending on the night. He has had the benefit of the passing of the Felton and Kidd combo on the court together, but at the same time his scoring burden has been enormous until Amare gets back.

Durant has Westbrook as a scorer and a guy to break down the defense at an elite level, helping create easy looks for himself. He also has Martin, who is the best or second best scoring 6th man in the game, depending on how you feel about Jamal. Durant is scoring at an amazing efficient clip, as always, but he doesn't even lead his team in FGA. He is shooting about the same as Westbrook however, since obviously a shot that ends in two FTs is still a shot. But his scoring burden isn't nearly as high as those two, and it's a lot more difficult for defenses to focus on him since they also have to worry about Westbrook and his ability to break down the defense.

Shots with the shot clock winding down are probably the biggest detriment to a players efficiency, and Durant simply isn't in that position as much as Kobe or Melo right now.

Like I said, I don't think you can go wrong with either three. It really depends on your preference, and what you look for in a scorer.


Lebron James; Cleveland Cavaliers.

Fish in barrel, meet gun!

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 04:57 PM
Of course, but being that Kobe currently leads the league in scoring and has 3 of the 8 40-point games this year he's obviously not having that problem. Same with Melo, who has 1 of those 40-point games and is second in the NBA in scoring. Durant doesn't have a 40-point game yet, and is currently 3rd in scoring.

Cool so lets say Kobe and Melo's hot shooting tail off and return to their norm (more likely to happen than Durant) are we then going to say that Durant is a better scorer than them. If you're basing your logic on this season alone I see tremendous holes in your argument.


Do you not realize that teammates can play a big part in a players efficiency at times?

That's logic anyone who has ever bounced a basketball knows this. Do you also know that in terms of volume metrics like points teammates can hurt your scoring? So if you have 3 other players averaging over 15 ppg (one averaging greater than 20) your chances for scoring 40 are going to be less than others?


Kobe is working with very little help offensively, as his PG has been Steve Blake and Chris Duhon virtually all year, Pau when he played was extremely limited by his tendinitis and Dwight is extremely easy to take out of games by doubling him, not to mention he's not a great passer by any means.

You can't double Dwight and Kobe at the same time. I basically addressed this in my earlier post.


Melo's 2nd best scorer has been Felton, JR Smith or Tyson Chandler depending on the night. He has had the benefit of the passing of the Felton and Kidd combo on the court together, but at the same time his scoring burden has been enormous until Amare gets back.

You know Felton attempting as much as he does actually helps (http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Carmelo-Anthony-vs-Raymond-Felton|2546,101109;year=201213;season=r) Melo more than it hurts him? Felton being on the floor allows Melo to see much less doubles despite the fact that Felton isn't the worlds greatest shooter. Think of the Durant's efficiency last season when Westy was shooter more than he was. He was given the ability to roam freer on offense that one would expect thus bolstering his efficiency much like Melo. Difference is Westy was a better volume scorer and Harden was the 6MOY. KD didn't have as many opportunities to shoot as Melo has.


Durant has Westbrook as a scorer and a guy to break down the defense at an elite level, helping create easy looks for himself. He also has Martin, who is the best or second best scoring 6th man in the game, depending on how you feel about Jamal. Durant is scoring at an amazing efficient clip, as always, but he doesn't even lead his team in FGA. He is shooting about the same as Westbrook however, since obviously a shot that ends in two FTs is still a shot. But his scoring burden isn't nearly as high as those two, and it's a lot more difficult for defenses to focus on him since they also have to worry about Westbrook and his ability to break down the defense

Thanks for making my point. Also Durant has PROVEN that with similar offensive (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2010.html) help to Melo (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2013.html) that he can be the first player in since Michael Jordan to score 30 points while having a TS% of 60 or greater.

To dumb it down a bit for you to understand in 2010 KD's teammates averaged 71.4 ppg. This season Melo's teammates are averaging 75.3 ppg. Even then Durant was more efficient and scored at a greater volume than Melo is this season so stop acting as if Durant is only this efficient because of Westy and Martin. Sure they help him but regardless he would be a more efficiency scorer than Melo and a greater volume scorer as well.


Shots with the shot clock winding down are probably the biggest detriment to a players efficiency, and Durant simply isn't in that position as much as Kobe or Melo right now.

Could you find us the facts to back this claim up? Who's taking more shots with the clock winding down. Oh and the biggest detriment to a players efficiency is not late shot but rather shot selection. I'm an A.I. fan trust me on that one.


Like I said, I don't think you can go wrong with either three. It really depends on your preference, and what you look for in a scorer.

Question then why not Bron? He has scored with greater volume on better efficiency with less help than Melo has this season why isn't he in the conversation?

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 04:59 PM
With 3 seconds or less on the shot:

Lebron has taken 16% of his shots with an eFG% of .585
Melo has taken 17% of his shots with an eFG% of .440
Kobe 11% of shots/.702 eFG%
KD 13% of shots/.599 eFG%

Carmelo hasn't taken that many more shots and Kobe has taken the fewest at the end of the shot clock.

Don't worry about providing the facts Foxhound ChiSox just did and basically he burned your reasoning.

Next?

tredigs
12-16-2012, 05:04 PM
FOXHOUND I do appreciate your arguments and you're presenting them well, but the fact of the matter is that they're based on perceptions, not realities. You need to start acknowledging these posts directly that are dismantling virtually everything you've wrote in favor of Melo.

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-16-2012, 05:07 PM
Why is LeBron not as good a scorer as those 3? Please. Enlighten me.

he doesnt have the offensive game the other 3 do, he may be more efficent but not as good a scorer as

CA
KB
KD

Minimal
12-16-2012, 05:10 PM
Of course, but being that Kobe currently leads the league in scoring and has 3 of the 8 40-point games this year he's obviously not having that problem. Same with Melo, who has 1 of those 40-point games and is second in the NBA in scoring. Durant doesn't have a 40-point game yet, and is currently 3rd in scoring.

Do you not realize that teammates can play a big part in a players efficiency at times?

Kobe is working with very little help offensively, as his PG has been Steve Blake and Chris Duhon virtually all year, Pau when he played was extremely limited by his tendinitis and Dwight is extremely easy to take out of games by doubling him, not to mention he's not a great passer by any means.

Melo's 2nd best scorer has been Felton, JR Smith or Tyson Chandler depending on the night. He has had the benefit of the passing of the Felton and Kidd combo on the court together, but at the same time his scoring burden has been enormous until Amare gets back.

Durant has Westbrook as a scorer and a guy to break down the defense at an elite level, helping create easy looks for himself. He also has Martin, who is the best or second best scoring 6th man in the game, depending on how you feel about Jamal. Durant is scoring at an amazing efficient clip, as always, but he doesn't even lead his team in FGA. He is shooting about the same as Westbrook however, since obviously a shot that ends in two FTs is still a shot. But his scoring burden isn't nearly as high as those two, and it's a lot more difficult for defenses to focus on him since they also have to worry about Westbrook and his ability to break down the defense.

Shots with the shot clock winding down are probably the biggest detriment to a players efficiency, and Durant simply isn't in that position as much as Kobe or Melo right now.

Like I said, I don't think you can go wrong with either three. It really depends on your preference, and what you look for in a scorer.
OMG. So you say Dwight getting doubled, doesn't benefit Kobe? That leaves 1 player on the floor without defender, which can greatly benefit Kobe. During Lakers Shaq era, Shaq was getting doubled or tripled a lot of times and Kobe was shooting uncontested shots because of that, which greatly benefited him. There is even a video on Youtube about that, however I don't remember how its called. Playing with such a player as Howard is a gift for any player in the NBA. I bet if LeBron played with Howard and Pau in the same team, they would steam roll the whole league.

Minimal
12-16-2012, 05:12 PM
It's nice to see Melo living up to his potential and mentioned with the elite players again where he belongs. He's now back to being slightly overrated just the way I like it. Durant is just ridiculous though. :)

My list:

1. Durant
2. LeBron
3. Melo
4. Kobe
Great list, you're probably the one non homer knick fan here.

--23--
12-16-2012, 05:16 PM
Melo, Kobe, and KD are the best all around scorers in the NBA. Dirk is another guy who can score anywhere and get his shot in different ways.

dnl123
12-16-2012, 05:19 PM
Depends on the criteria. Best scorer is a very vague thing. If we're simply talking about putting the ball in the hoop it is Kobe, but if we're talking about putting the ball in the hoop efficiently hands down it's Lebron with Durant just behind him.

oG $wank.
12-16-2012, 05:20 PM
melo kd kobe

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 05:22 PM
With 3 seconds or less on the shot:

Lebron has taken 16% of his shots with an eFG% of .585
Melo has taken 17% of his shots with an eFG% of .440
Kobe 11% of shots/.702 eFG%
KD 13% of shots/.599 eFG%

Carmelo hasn't taken that many more shots and Kobe has taken the fewest at the end of the shot clock.

Good post, interesting numbers to see.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 05:23 PM
Without looking, do you think Kobe was more effecient with Shaq or without him?

Kobe wasn't in his prime with Shaq. He had some of his higher FG% years with Shaq, but he became a much better shooter and overall scorer later in his career, and by then Shaq was gone.

AI
12-16-2012, 05:24 PM
Best scorer in the league? Melo. Best player in the league? Lebron.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 05:25 PM
Lebron James; Cleveland Cavaliers.

Fish in barrel, meet gun!

You mean when he would get exposed in the playoffs by elite defenses who could take away what he does, including having the worst 4 game shooting stretch in playoff history? OK.

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 05:31 PM
You mean when he would get exposed in the playoffs by elite defenses who could take away what he does, including having the worst 4 game shooting stretch in playoff history? OK.

What happened when LeBron came up against the #1 defensive team in the league the Orlando Magic? What happened 2 games before he faced the Spurs against the #7 ranked Detroit Pistons? Also how did Melo fair against that Spurs team again despite having A.I. as his running mate?

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 05:39 PM
Cool so lets say Kobe and Melo's hot shooting tail off and return to their norm (more likely to happen than Durant) are we then going to say that Durant is a better scorer than them. If you're basing your logic on this season alone I see tremendous holes in your argument.



That's logic anyone who has ever bounced a basketball knows this. Do you also know that in terms of volume metrics like points teammates can hurt your scoring? So if you have 3 other players averaging over 15 ppg (one averaging greater than 20) your chances for scoring 40 are going to be less than others?

.

You can't double Dwight and Kobe at the same time. I basically addressed this in my earlier post.



You know Felton attempting as much as he does actually helps (http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Carmelo-Anthony-vs-Raymond-Felton|2546,101109;year=201213;season=r) Melo more than it hurts him? Felton being on the floor allows Melo to see much less doubles despite the fact that Felton isn't the worlds greatest shooter. Think of the Durant's efficiency last season when Westy was shooter more than he was. He was given the ability to roam freer on offense that one would expect thus bolstering his efficiency much like Melo. Difference is Westy was a better volume scorer and Harden was the 6MOY. KD didn't have as many opportunities to shoot as Melo has.



Thanks for making my point. Also Durant has PROVEN that with similar offensive (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2010.html) help to Melo (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2013.html) that he can be the first player in since Michael Jordan to score 30 points while having a TS% of 60 or greater.

To dumb it down a bit for you to understand in 2010 KD's teammates averaged 71.4 ppg. This season Melo's teammates are averaging 75.3 ppg. Even then Durant was more efficient and scored at a greater volume than Melo is this season so stop acting as if Durant is only this efficient because of Westy and Martin. Sure they help him but regardless he would be a more efficiency scorer than Melo and a greater volume scorer as well.



Could you find us the facts to back this claim up? Who's taking more shots with the clock winding down. Oh and the biggest detriment to a players efficiency is not late shot but rather shot selection. I'm an A.I. fan trust me on that one.



Question then why not Bron? He has scored with greater volume on better efficiency with less help than Melo has this season why isn't he in the conversation?

Kobe can easily keep up what he's doing, as long as he stays healthy. His increase in efficiency is due to him being healthy and using the lightest workload he's used in a decade.

Melo is playing the best ball of his career, and there's nothing to suggest he's going to tail off. Since Woodson has took over and has focused on Melo's strengths he's been doing what he's doing.

What if the current scoring standing stays put? Then what? Durant won the scoring title the past two year, when Kobe was dealing with massive injuries and Melo was being killed by Pringles in NY. Right now all three are playing their A game, so it will sort itself out.

I'm well aware that Durant is more than capable of scoring 40 points, and will have his fair share of them before this season is over.

Dwight does not get doubled off the ball, he doesn't have any sort of game to draw that kind of attention. One hard double when Dwight catches the ball is all it takes to take him out of the offense, and that double is rarely coming from the SG position.

Felton isn't keeping doubles away from Melo, trust me as a Knicks fan. The small ball spacing and the double PG backcourt of Felton and Kidd, creates lots of ball movement, has. I know he is helping, but he's not exactly good to drop 25-35 any given night and give Melo a day off on having to drop 30.

I'm well aware that Durant is a more efficient scorer than Melo, as I said in my initial post that Durant is the most efficient scorer in the league. I've already addressed that Durant's issues with physicality is why I prefer Melo and Kobe over him slightly, currently standing. I also gave him credit for his improving post game, and said that if he proves to have a consistent one that it could catapult him to the top of my list.

LeBron has not scored with great volume than Melo, or efficiency thanks to his crappy FT shooting this far. He has Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh, please spare me on him having worse teammates lol. Maybe if his style of play didn't kill Wade's game, or vice versa, they would be scoring at a higher rate as a duo. Then again, that's part of the value of an arsenal of scoring ability, rather than heavily relying on a few skills.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 05:45 PM
You mean when he would get exposed in the playoffs by elite defenses who could take away what he does, including having the worst 4 game shooting stretch in playoff history? OK.

Hahahaha. Are you sure playoff performances are the way you want to hedge your argument for Melo over Lebron (now that your regular season argument has been exposed/destroyed)? Think about this for a minute my man. I'll give you some time to check over the numbers so you're ready.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 05:47 PM
What happened when LeBron came up against the #1 defensive team in the league the Orlando Magic? What happened 2 games before he faced the Spurs against the #7 ranked Detroit Pistons? Also how did Melo fair against that Spurs team again despite having A.I. as his running mate?

The number 1 defense that had Courtney Lee and Hedo Turkoglu trying to defend LeBron? Yeah, I don't think that D was any good after Dwight. I remember him struggling in plenty of 4th quarters that series, including a donut in game 6.

What happened in other games vs Detroit? He went 3-11 in the final game, good thing you specifically chose game 5 where he playe great. He also shot 42% vs the vaunted New Jersey Nets and Richard Jefferson.

Melo shot 47% vs the Spurs in 2007 and scored 28 PPG.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 05:50 PM
Bear in mind with all of this that Lebron plays arguably the toughest defense in the league while on the other end of the floor. Anyone who has played the game knows how much easier it is on offense if you aren't putting in the effort on defense.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 05:51 PM
Hahahaha. Are you sure playoff performances are the way you want to hedge your argument for Melo over Lebron (now that your regular season argument has been exposed/destroyed)? Think about this for a minute my man. I'll give you some time to check over the numbers so you're ready.

Lol, I know the numbers. I also know that Melo's playoff numbers would be much better if he got to beat up on the Washington Wizards three times, the 41-win New Jersey Nets in the 2nd round or any other sub 42-win team LeBron has gotten to play in the playoffs being in the weak east.

JordansBulls
12-16-2012, 05:52 PM
The guy who just won 3 scoring titles in a row.

bucketss
12-16-2012, 05:53 PM
1 - Carmelo Anthony

Can score well in every way possible, including his ability to attack the glass.

2 - Kobe Bryant

Has the most moves in the game. Also can score well in every way possible, but his age doesn't let him do certain things as consistently as he used to. Is back to getting to the rim a lot, leading to his 8.9 FTA per game.

3 - Kevin Durant

His game is evolving very well, he's adding things every year. He's starting to develop a consistent post game, which can catapult him to the top. He's already the most efficient scorer in the NBA, even if part of that is due to Westbrook breaking down defenses as well as he does. His shooting game is unmatched, just completely on a legendary level. He'll be number one on this list sooner than later.

HR - LeBron James

He has become a much better scorer over the years, especially in adding his post game. This year his 3 point percentage has been really good, although it likely won't stay as high as it is. Might be heading to a career high regardless. On the other hand he isn't even shooting 70% from the line, and isn't getting to the line nearly as much as he used to. Only 6 FTA per game for LeBron sounds extremely weird, and likely won't stay that low. His offensive game is much more limited than the previous three, but that's because he is far more athletically gifted and hasn't needed as much as them. He's not on their level as a scorer, but he does more than alright for himself in that regard.

is this the list for best scorers in the games or players with the most fancy moves?

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 05:54 PM
Kobe can easily keep up what he's doing, as long as he stays healthy. His increase in efficiency is due to him being healthy and using the lightest workload he's used in a decade.

Lightest workload you say. Please expand on that.


Melo is playing the best ball of his career, and there's nothing to suggest he's going to tail off. Since Woodson has took over and has focused on Melo's strengths he's been doing what he's doing.

Tell me have you followed Carmelo Anthony's career as a member of the Nuggets? If you tell me how good was he offensively in the first 3 months of the 06-07 season.


What if the current scoring standing stays put? Then what? Durant won the scoring title the past two year, when Kobe was dealing with massive injuries and Melo was being killed by Pringles in NY. Right now all three are playing their A game, so it will sort itself out.

If it stays put Durant will still be the most efficient scorer with the most offensive help thus hurting his volume #s. He'd still be the best scorer in the league.


Dwight does not get doubled off the ball, he doesn't have any sort of game to draw that kind of attention. One hard double when Dwight catches the ball is all it takes to take him out of the offense, and that double is rarely coming from the SG position.

Doesn't matter honestly the mere fact that Dwight is garnering such attention is enough of an opening for a player of Kobe's offensive IQ.


Felton isn't keeping doubles away from Melo, trust me as a Knicks fan. The small ball spacing and the double PG backcourt of Felton and Kidd, creates lots of ball movement, has. I know he is helping, but he's not exactly good to drop 25-35 any given night and give Melo a day off on having to drop 30.

Well the facts I pointed out in my post stated otherwise. Melo plays at his best with Felton on the floor with him. With the fact that the Knicks have so many potent shooters surrounding Melo and Felton taking as many shots as he is he is helping Melo offensively thats only common sense.


I'm well aware that Durant is a more efficient scorer than Melo, as I said in my initial post that Durant is the most efficient scorer in the league. I've already addressed that Durant's issues with physicality is why I prefer Melo and Kobe over him slightly, currently standing. I also gave him credit for his improving post game, and said that if he proves to have a consistent one that it could catapult him to the top of my list.

Actually you didn't. Durant currently has the #1 post game in the NBA better than Melo but you said that he wasn't on Melo's level in that regard. That's not giving him credit.


LeBron has not scored with great volume than Melo, or efficiency thanks to his crappy FT shooting this far. He has Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh, please spare me on him having worse teammates lol. Maybe if his style of play didn't kill Wade's game, or vice versa, they would be scoring at a higher rate as a duo. Then again, that's part of the value of an arsenal of scoring ability, rather than heavily relying on a few skills.

LeBron is more efficient than Melo what are you talking about? I never once mention anything about LeBron having crappy teammates your reading comprehension is lacking. I said because of the strength of his teammates in terms of volume scoring he is asked to carry a smaller burden thus lessening his volumes scoring. Again basic common sense.

LeBron killed Wade's game? :laugh2: Okay cool I'll buy it. What say you about Jeremy Lin killing Melo's? If Melo is this great amazing scorer that you claim how on earth can Lin hurt his game? How can D'Antoni hurt his game? Harden's thriving next to Lin so its not like Lin hurts everyone he plays with.

LeBron for his career and at his peak has been a more efficient scorer on greater volume. That'a a fact. LeBron has improved his offensive repertoire, jump shot and range as his career has progressed. Basically making him what you consider a better scorer than he was when he hit his scoring peak. Place him on a team like Melo's and he'd score on greater volume than Melo ever has. Hell if LeBron took the Knicks over the Heat you'd be in here harping how LeBron is the best scorer in the NBA and not KD, Melo or Kobe.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 05:55 PM
Bear in mind with all of this that Lebron plays arguably the toughest defense in the league while on the other end of the floor. Anyone who has played the game knows how much easier it is on offense if you aren't putting in the effort on defense.

That is true, and I think playing PF is the reason LeBron's FT numbers have taken a hit both in attempts and %. Fatigue is a huge factor in the FT game. But he hasn't played great D, at all. PFs are killing Miami this season, averaging 25 points and 13 rebounds on over 50% per 48 when LeBron is at PF.

Melo has actually played much better D this year than LeBron at PF, although PFs are averaging 18 and 10 per 48 with him at PF.

ManRam
12-16-2012, 05:58 PM
Question.

Do some of you guys understand the difference between skill and production? Lemme break that down a bit further for those who don't comprehend, what I'm saying still. Do some of you guys understand the difference between having a better offensive repertoire and being a better scorer? They aren't the same you know.

It's wildly clear that a lot of people in this thread don't get this. And I don't get how they don't get it either.


Results are all that matter. I don't care HOW it gets done, just that it does get done. And LeBron and KD get it done better than anyone else in the league, period.

tredigs
12-16-2012, 05:59 PM
Lol, I know the numbers. I also know that Melo's playoff numbers would be much better if he got to beat up on the Washington Wizards three times, the 41-win New Jersey Nets in the 2nd round or any other sub 42-win team LeBron has gotten to play in the playoffs being in the weak east.

Maybe if he had been a more efficient regular season scorer (and played both ends) he could have carried his teams to a better regular season record? That way they wouldn't have to face teams like the Miami Heat in the 1st round and we wouldn't have to watch him get outplayed by players like ... I don't know, Lebron James?

Anyway, this horse is beaten. Moving on.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 05:59 PM
is this the list for best scorers in the games or players with the most fancy moves?

What does the current scoring standings look like?

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 06:02 PM
The number 1 defense that had Courtney Lee and Hedo Turkoglu trying to defend LeBron? Yeah, I don't think that D was any good after Dwight. I remember him struggling in plenty of 4th quarters that series, including a donut in game 6.

You said he was exposed by elite defenses did you not? Well you were just proven WRONG. They were the top defense in the entire NBA and since Dwight was the DPOY, inside inforcer and catalyst to their D a player like LeBron who was still developing his mid range game should have SUFFERED. He didn't he thrived in putting up some of the best offensive #s we've seen in a playoff series in more than a decade.


What happened in other games vs Detroit? He went 3-11 in the final game, good thing you specifically chose game 5 where he playe great. He also shot 42% vs the vaunted New Jersey Nets and Richard Jefferson.

Wait are you talking about the game Boobie caught a fire and LeBron focused more on locking down Taysaun Prince (1-10 from the field) than anything else? The game where most of Boobies made threes came off assists by Bron? That game?


Melo shot 47% vs the Spurs in 2007 and scored 28 PPG.

You mean 27 PPG right? That's NOTHING compared to what Bron did against the Magic.

bucketss
12-16-2012, 06:03 PM
What does the current scoring standings look like?

best scorers in the game is determined by 20 games into the season completely disregarding past seasons?

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 06:04 PM
What does the current scoring standings look like?

Its a quarter of a way through the season. What does the last 82 games standings look like? Why let's see (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g).

tripleplay2007
12-16-2012, 06:11 PM
You guys need to get of Melo's dick.

jerellh528
12-16-2012, 06:11 PM
Without looking, do you think Kobe was more effecient with Shaq or without him?

Ahahah stupid, do you have any idea how much Kobe has expanded his game since then?

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 06:15 PM
Lightest workload you say. Please expand on that.



Tell me have you followed Carmelo Anthony's career as a member of the Nuggets? If you tell me how good was he offensively in the first 3 months of the 06-07 season.



If it stays put Durant will still be the most efficient scorer with the most offensive help thus hurting his volume #s. He'd still be the best scorer in the league.



Doesn't matter honestly the mere fact that Dwight is garnering such attention is enough of an opening for a player of Kobe's offensive IQ.



Well the facts I pointed out in my post stated otherwise. Melo plays at his best with Felton on the floor with him. With the fact that the Knicks have so many potent shooters surrounding Melo and Felton taking as many shots as he is he is helping Melo offensively thats only common sense.



Actually you didn't. Durant currently has the #1 post game in the NBA better than Melo but you said that he wasn't on Melo's level in that regard. That's not giving him credit.



LeBron is more efficient than Melo what are you talking about? I never once mention anything about LeBron having crappy teammates your reading comprehension is lacking. I said because of the strength of his teammates in terms of volume scoring he is asked to carry a smaller burden thus lessening his volumes scoring. Again basic common sense.

LeBron killed Wade's game? :laugh2: Okay cool I'll buy it. What say you about Jeremy Lin killing Melo's? If Melo is this great amazing scorer that you claim how on earth can Lin hurt his game? How can D'Antoni hurt his game? Harden's thriving next to Lin so its not like Lin hurts everyone he plays with.

LeBron for his career and at his peak has been a more efficient scorer on greater volume. That'a a fact. LeBron has improved his offensive repertoire, jump shot and range as his career has progressed. Basically making him what you consider a better scorer than he was when he hit his scoring peak. Place him on a team like Melo's and he'd score on greater volume than Melo ever has. Hell if LeBron took the Knicks over the Heat you'd be in here harping how LeBron is the best scorer in the NBA and not KD, Melo or Kobe.

Kobe's usage rate and FGA are way down this year, that's what I mean. He's not forcing things as much since he has Dwight, even though Dwight isn't holding up his end of the bargain. Lately Kobe's workload is increasing, he's getting impatient with Dwight's nonsense.

Yes, I have followed Melo's entire career. He has never dominated the game like he is doing right now.

Common sense also says that with increased volume comes less efficiency, as it's harder to maintain.

Kobe is taking advantage of Dwight being on the court, which is part of the reason he's getting to the rim much more frequently.

Felton's shot numbers are a little swayed, being that he's averaged over 20 FGA a game in the games Melo has missed. Felton has helped Melo, I am more than aware of this. But comparing Felton's impact of help to Westbrook? No way, not even close.

Actually I did give Durant credit. His post game has been good so far, but he has to sustain it for a bit more than a couple of months before it becomes legit. I'm not sitting here saying Melo is a better 3 point shooter because he's been averaging a higher 3PT% despite taking 2 more attempts per game, am I?

I didn't say you said he had crappy teammates, you said lesser. Wade has struggled all year, and his workload has been way down. LeBron has had more than enough cause and excuses to expand his scoring game, he just hasn't.

LeBron and Wade have killed each others game since the day they beame teammates. This is why only one of them would go off in year one, and why Wade admitted to having to take a step back in year 2 to let LeBron be LeBron. They do all of the same things, and play the same style.

Lin did not kill Melo's game, D' Antoni's joke of a system did. He didn't allow him to use his post game, and he was stuck standing flat footed behind the 3 point line while Lin and Chandler ran pick n rolls all game. This also killed Amare's game, who was stuck on the baseline. D' Antoni has no idea how to use talent, isn't this obvious yet? He tried to use Melo like he was Shawn Marion/young Joe Johnson. That would kill any star players game.

LeBron is a better scorer than he used be, that's obvious. Miami isn't as suited to LeBron's game as Cleveland was, being that they were built around him entirely.

bucketss
12-16-2012, 06:16 PM
You said he was exposed by elite defenses did you not? Well you were just proven WRONG. They were the top defense in the entire NBA and since Dwight was the DPOY, inside inforcer and catalyst to their D a player like LeBron who was still developing his mid range game should have SUFFERED. He didn't he thrived in putting up some of the best offensive #s we've seen in a playoff series in more than a decade.



Wait are you talking about the game Boobie caught a fire and LeBron focused more on locking down Taysaun Prince (1-10 from the field) than anything else? The game where most of Boobies made threes came off assists by Bron? That game?



You mean 27 PPG right? That's NOTHING compared to what Bron did against the Magic.
wow ethered.

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 06:19 PM
Its a quarter of a way through the season. What does the last 82 games standings look like? Why let's see (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g).

In the last 82 games Melo was ruined in D' Antoni's system. In April under Woodson he scored 30 PPG and shot over 50% playing with utter crap.

Kobe played last season with a torn ligament in his shooting wrist, which is always convienitely left out when talking about it.

KnicksorBust
12-16-2012, 06:24 PM
best scorers in the game is determined by 20 games into the season completely disregarding past seasons?


Its a quarter of a way through the season. What does the last 82 games standings look like? Why let's see (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g).

When someone asks a question like "best scorer in the league" I don't think career numbers should have nearly as much weight as how they are currently producing. This is why guys like Melo and Kobe do deserve a lot of credit for what they've done so far. If we did top 10 scorers, Harden would be on that list but if we did it based on prior seasons then that'd produce a dated group of players.


Ahahah stupid, do you have any idea how much Kobe has expanded his game since then?

Do you have any idea what point I'm trying to make? :)

FOXHOUND
12-16-2012, 06:24 PM
You said he was exposed by elite defenses did you not? Well you were just proven WRONG. They were the top defense in the entire NBA and since Dwight was the DPOY, inside inforcer and catalyst to their D a player like LeBron who was still developing his mid range game should have SUFFERED. He didn't he thrived in putting up some of the best offensive #s we've seen in a playoff series in more than a decade.



Wait are you talking about the game Boobie caught a fire and LeBron focused more on locking down Taysaun Prince (1-10 from the field) than anything else? The game where most of Boobies made threes came off assists by Bron? That game?



You mean 27 PPG right? That's NOTHING compared to what Bron did against the Magic.

And they had Hedo Turkoglu guarding him, which is crap. They were not an elite defense by legitimate standards, just like Cleveland wasn't the best team in the NBA just because they led the league in wins in back to back seasona, yet failed to make the Finals in either.

LeBron sucked throughout the 4th quarters that series, notably having a donut in game 6 an having 7 TOs in the 4th/OT of game 3 or 4.

Check his numbers any year he played Boston before they got old. He had the worst four game shooting stretch in NBA playoff history.

So you're saying that LeBron simply didn't want to shoot better, or that Tayshaun Prince was just that hard to stop? Lol, more like he's lucky Boobie stepped up and dropped 30.

I'm sorry, 47% and 27 PPG. He should have air balled 4 FTs in four games and shot horrendous like LeBron did in the Finals.

Edit: Detroit's defense wasn't even Detroit's defense anymore. Mike Woodson, the defensive architect, was gone. Larry Brown was gone. Ben Wallace was gone, and in his place was a one legged ancient Chris Webber.

RealLiveBear
12-16-2012, 06:27 PM
Keep in mind Durants putting up these numbers with Westbrook on his team..

Durant

Lebron

Melo/Kobe

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 07:16 PM
When someone asks a question like "best scorer in the league" I don't think career numbers should have nearly as much weight as how they are currently producing. This is why guys like Melo and Kobe do deserve a lot of credit for what they've done so far. If we did top 10 scorers, Harden would be on that list but if we did it based on prior seasons then that'd produce a dated group of players.

Why do you have Kobe at #4 on your list for this season when you have LeBron at #2?

I didn't speak of career #s I gave a broader view from a statistical standpoint. You know bigger sample size = more accurate statistical analysis. Who is to say Melo is going to sustain this type of play? He has never been able to do so for the entirety of a season in his career (volume + efficiency). Shooting is something that is very streaky and thus far (just 20 games) into the season Melo really hasn't gone into a dry spell. What happens if he does?

seikou8
12-16-2012, 07:19 PM
Keep in mind Durants putting up these numbers with Westbrook on his team..

Durant

Lebron

Melo/Kobe

wtf is the problem with westbrook :mad:

CaptainClutch
12-16-2012, 07:22 PM
Brian Scalabrine....hands down ;)

Mamba Sting
12-16-2012, 07:22 PM
id say kobe. he is playing better than i have ever seen him play. he could win the scoring title easily if he wanted to, but this season he is getting his teammates involved more and doing what is best for the team. if kobe cared about the scoring title he could win it, but he cares more about winning a championship.

Il Mago50
12-16-2012, 07:34 PM
Marco Bellinelli

fresh prince
12-17-2012, 01:52 AM
I just don't understand guys who say Melo or Kobe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2013&p2=anthoca01&y2=2013&p3=duranke01&y3=2013&p4=jamesle01&y4=2013

Look at FG% and FGA, now use your logic.

The best pure scorers are. Kobe and Melo. Durant and LeBron are both more efficient but lack the overall offensive skill sets that set. Kobe and Melo apart.Those two guys have no offensive weakness. I don't think best scorer equates to the most efficient.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-17-2012, 02:07 AM
The best pure scorers are. Kobe and Melo. Durant and LeBron are both more efficient but lack the overall offensive skill sets that set. Kobe and Melo apart.Those two guys have no offensive weakness. I don't think best scorer equates to the most efficient.

This

sagemania
12-17-2012, 02:25 AM
Lebron
Kobe
KD
Melo
Harden
Mayo
Westbrook
Parker

sagemania
12-17-2012, 02:26 AM
id say kobe. he is playing better than i have ever seen him play. he could win the scoring title easily if he wanted to, but this season he is getting his teammates involved more and doing what is best for the team. if kobe cared about the scoring title he could win it, but he cares more about winning a championship.

You must have missed his prime then when he was dropping 50 point games one after another on the likes of an prime Shane Battier.

RonE Coleman
12-17-2012, 03:10 AM
Best shooter - Durant

Best Offensive scoring repertoire - Melo by far

Most unstoppable driving the lane - Lebron

Take that as you will...

naps
12-17-2012, 03:30 AM
LeBron. No one gets 30 a night as effortlessly than LeBron. He can have an off-night or a ok game and still get 30 points. If you watch the game and look at the boxscore after the game you'll be surprised that he has 30.

sagemania
12-17-2012, 03:32 AM
Lebron is the complete physical packiage, size, speed, skill, but i think he still lacks that 3pt shot tht Melo has. Melo has an incridible repatoire of offensive skill. He can pretty much score from everywhere on the offensive end.

KingPosey
12-17-2012, 03:41 AM
KD and Melo are the best pure scoters in the league. Lebron is the best player but he doesn't have the offensive skill set they have, not even close as far as scoring the basketball. He is just so special physically that he can't be matched and yes buckets through physical ability and hustle. They can just do it all

amos1er
12-17-2012, 05:33 AM
Why not make a poll?

amos1er
12-17-2012, 05:44 AM
Kobe: 29.5 ppg on a TS% of .602

Lebron: 25.4 ppg on a TS% of .601

Carmelo: 27.9 ppg on a TS% of .592

Durant: 27.5 ppg on a TS% of .650

Honestly, its between Kobe and Durant. Melo I can understand people bringing into the conversation for best scorer in the NBA, but the people saying Lebron are just the same bunch of complete homers who say that he is a top ten player of all time and Kobe is a top 15 player of all time. There is no real debate after looking at these numbers. Kobe is easily the 3rd best scorer of all time under Jordan and Wilt, Lebron doesn't even hold a candle to Kobe in terms of scoring. Wake up and smell the coffee people...it's just down right ridiculous sometimes.

amos1er
12-17-2012, 06:02 AM
I just don't understand guys who say Melo or Kobe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2013&p2=anthoca01&y2=2013&p3=duranke01&y3=2013&p4=jamesle01&y4=2013

Look at FG% and FGA, now use your logic.

Ever heard of a little thing called TS%. :facepalm:

Chronz
12-17-2012, 06:45 AM
My definition of best scorer is who has the best offensive repertoire. KD gets A LOT of his points from the FT line, and he still has a post-game to develop (which Melo and Kobe have already mastered). I'll give KD the category of shooting as he's a far superior shooter than both of those guys. He has a nice floater. But really, that's about it.

So for me, best scorer needs to include repertoire.

Better scorer, Ewing or Shaq?

amos1er
12-17-2012, 07:08 AM
Better scorer, Ewing or Shaq?

Shaq Career: 23.7 ppg, TS% .586

Ewing Career: 21.0, TS% .553


Shaq Peek: 98-02 28.2 ppg, TS% .582

Ewing Peek: 90-94 25.6 ppg, TS% .565


Shaq Best Season: 1999-2000 29.7 ppg, TS% .578

Ewing Best Season: 1989-1990 28.6 ppg, TS% .599



Have to go with Shaq on this one.

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 08:42 AM
And they had Hedo Turkoglu guarding him, which is crap. They were not an elite defense by legitimate standards, just like Cleveland wasn't the best team in the NBA just because they led the league in wins in back to back seasona, yet failed to make the Finals in either.

LeBron sucked throughout the 4th quarters that series, notably having a donut in game 6 an having 7 TOs in the 4th/OT of game 3 or 4.

Check his numbers any year he played Boston before they got old. He had the worst four game shooting stretch in NBA playoff history.

So you're saying that LeBron simply didn't want to shoot better, or that Tayshaun Prince was just that hard to stop? Lol, more like he's lucky Boobie stepped up and dropped 30.

I'm sorry, 47% and 27 PPG. He should have air balled 4 FTs in four games and shot horrendous like LeBron did in the Finals.

Edit: Detroit's defense wasn't even Detroit's defense anymore. Mike Woodson, the defensive architect, was gone. Larry Brown was gone. Ben Wallace was gone, and in his place was a one legged ancient Chris Webber.

And your true agenda shines through :laugh2:

This guy says LeBron was exposed by elite defenses but the best defensive team in the NBA isn't an elite defense :laugh2:

How can anyone take anything you say seriously? They were the best defensive team in the league meaning no TEAM was better how is that not legit. The Magic defenders were TOLD to channel their many into the lane of Dwight and let him do all the work which they did to perfection hence their #1 defensive ranking. And yes the Pistons were without Ben but they still had Rasheed who was patrolling the paint NOT Webber :rolleyes:. They were still top tier defensively and Taysaun Prince MADE the All Team D. How does your reasoning not hold up for that, you blame the Magic for having Hedo and Lee on Bron but when we speak of one of the best perimeter defenders in the game you bring up Webber who had nothing to do with him. Confused much or just reaching?

Against Boston after a poor start shooting he got it together shooting greater than 45% from the field and 80% from the line while scoring 38 points a game while putting on one of the greatest game 7 performances in NBA history. So yeah he surely sucked against Boston. Or were you speaking of the 2nd time he played against them when he shot damn near 50% for the series and over 60% in the first 3 games while scoring 32 ppg.

Tell me when has Melo ever played at that level in the post season against elite defenses?

You know when you're beat when you completely stray from the topic of discussion and focus on a player's playoff performances against elite defensive teams as your ONLY reasoning.

Dude give up because you and I both know that had LeBron chosen NY over Miami you'd be all on his nuts.

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 08:46 AM
Ever heard of a little thing called TS%. :facepalm:

Thing is he was responding to the posters who said they took other players over LeBron because of his poor shooting from the field. FG% is a measure of what again?


Kobe: 29.5 ppg on a TS% of .602

Lebron: 25.4 ppg on a TS% of .601

Carmelo: 27.9 ppg on a TS% of .592

Durant: 27.5 ppg on a TS% of .650

Honestly, its between Kobe and Durant. Melo I can understand people bringing into the conversation for best scorer in the NBA, but the people saying Lebron are just the same bunch of complete homers who say that he is a top ten player of all time and Kobe is a top 15 player of all time. There is no real debate after looking at these numbers. Kobe is easily the 3rd best scorer of all time under Jordan and Wilt, Lebron doesn't even hold a candle to Kobe in terms of scoring. Wake up and smell the coffee people...it's just down right ridiculous sometimes.

Could you please back up these utterly idiotic posts you keep making. NO ONE says that only in your world you see such posts.

justinnum1
12-17-2012, 08:57 AM
lebron or durant

Munkeysuit
12-17-2012, 09:21 AM
Kevin Durant, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant...first of all, Durant can shoot the hell out of that ball from anywhere on the court, his range is as soon as he enters the gym...Lebron is a more diverse scorer out of the 3, so he scores the ball in a variety of different ways...BUT Kobe Bryant is the best scorer of the 3 and is still the best in the league, simply because he is relentless, has all the moves and has the never ending green light to shoot it any time he wants to...If I had to rank them it would be Kobe, Durant then Lebron...no ones even comes close after that.

Quietmoney
12-17-2012, 09:49 AM
Anyone remember Landry Fields numbers when he was a rookie with the Knicks? I think he was the most efficient shooting guard in the league. Once Melo came and he couldn't get the opportunities or looks he had prior to Melo's arrival, he couldn't score anymore. Some times you have to look at who the player is surrounded by when you start talking about how good they are based on efficiency numbers. I think people better start giving Westbrook a lot more credit for making things easier for Durant

bucketss
12-17-2012, 09:52 AM
My definition of best scorer is who has the best offensive repertoire. KD gets A LOT of his points from the FT line, and he still has a post-game to develop (which Melo and Kobe have already mastered). I'll give KD the category of shooting as he's a far superior shooter than both of those guys. He has a nice floater. But really, that's about it.

So for me, best scorer needs to include repertoire.

so best scorer in the game is who ever has the most fancy moves over who actually puts the ball in the hoop more? i guess blatche is a better scorer than dwight.

Quietmoney
12-17-2012, 09:52 AM
lebron or durant

It's Melo! You should know that being that you watch so many Knick games and know first hand how Melo is the most dominant scorer in this league. Durant and Kobe are scoring a lot of points, but Melo is dominating offensively.

bucketss
12-17-2012, 09:54 AM
Anyone remember Landry Fields numbers when he was a rookie with the Knicks? I think he was the most efficient shooting guard in the league. Once Melo came and he couldn't get the opportunities or looks he had prior to Melo's arrival, he couldn't score anymore. Some times you have to look at who the player is surrounded by when you start talking about how good they are based on efficiency numbers. I think people better start giving Westbrook a lot more credit for making things easier for Durant

landry had some kind of nerve problem in his elbow/hand that messed up his shot he just got surgery he finna go to the old landry;)

Da Knicks
12-17-2012, 09:55 AM
Melo followed by Durant

Quietmoney
12-17-2012, 09:56 AM
so best scorer in the game is who ever has the most fancy moves over who actually puts the ball in the hoop more? i guess blatche is a better scorer than dwight.

If you want to word it that way, fine. But if we look at things your way, we're gonna have to put Tyson Chandler in this conversation. Although I know he doesn't belong but if we gonna talk about effeciency, he's by far the most efficient and there isn't even a close second.

DanG
12-17-2012, 09:59 AM
Melo, Durant, Kobe, Bron

elledaddy
12-17-2012, 10:00 AM
1. Melo/Kobe
2. Durant
3. D Rose
4. Jamal Crawford
5. Lebron

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 10:30 AM
Since Kobe is leading the league in scoring and shooting 47%, I'll go with him. Not to mention he's 4th all time.

Quietmoney
12-17-2012, 10:34 AM
While Kobe is leading the league, Melo has been in a few blowouts where he couldn't play the fourth quarter. A good example is the Laker and Knicks game. He had 30 by the 3rd and didn't play the 4th.

meloman1592
12-17-2012, 10:49 AM
Anyone with melo not in their top 3 is a hater..seriously

BklynKnicks3
12-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Lebron is not even a pure scorer people dont understand basketball i swear they look at who avgs alot of ppg and think those are the best scorers. There are 3 elite pure scorers Melo/Kd/Kobe. Then u have guys like Rudy gay who is 2nd tier. Lebron is the best player In the halfcourt offense the most impressive thing he does is pass.

1-800-STFU
12-17-2012, 11:25 AM
Lebron is not even a pure scorer people dont understand basketball i swear they look at who avgs alot of ppg and think those are the best scorers. There are 3 elite pure scorers Melo/Kd/Kobe. Then u have guys like Rudy gay who is 2nd tier. Lebron is the best player In the halfcourt offense the most impressive thing he does is pass.

Oh dear....

H-here we go!

Becks2307
12-17-2012, 11:33 AM
This topic is flawed.
The term "best" scorer is subjective. If different people have different ways of evaluating something, how can we come to a consensus? There needs to be a set criteria for this to go anywhere.

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 11:34 AM
Lebron is not even a pure scorer people dont understand basketball i swear they look at who avgs alot of ppg and think those are the best scorers. There are 3 elite pure scorers Melo/Kd/Kobe. Then u have guys like Rudy gay who is 2nd tier. Lebron is the best player In the halfcourt offense the most impressive thing he does is pass.

Could you imagine if he was a pure scorer how great he would be :speechless:

He averaged 30 on three occasions (29.7 is damn near 30) without being a "pure scorer". If he was a pure scorer he'd averaged 45. :speechless:

Carmelo has never even gotten that once and he's the purest thing to you since the virgin Mary herself. :rolleyes:

bucketss
12-17-2012, 11:50 AM
Lebron is not even a pure scorer people dont understand basketball i swear they look at who avgs alot of ppg and think those are the best scorers. There are 3 elite pure scorers Melo/Kd/Kobe. Then u have guys like Rudy gay who is 2nd tier. Lebron is the best player In the halfcourt offense the most impressive thing he does is pass.

what is a scorer? someone who puts the ball in the basket at a high rate right? lol look at yourself you been brain washed by stepback melo bricks.

JiffyMix88
12-17-2012, 12:02 PM
I used to think Dirk had the best all around game but I think its definitely Durant now since he's gotten so good at the backing down turn around fade away

LongIslandIcedZ
12-17-2012, 12:06 PM
I dont get what a pure scorer.

I would think the correct answer would be the guy who hast the best mix of number of points and the efficiency it comes at. I assume its Lebron and maybe Durant.

If the question was who has the most versatile scoring skill set, I can see why people would drop Melo's name, the guy has a vast array of scoring techniques.

bucketss
12-17-2012, 12:13 PM
i dont get what a pure scorer.

I would think the correct answer would be the guy who hast the best mix of number of points and the efficiency it comes at. I assume its lebron and maybe durant.

If the question was who has the most versatile scoring skill set, i can see why people would drop melo's name, the guy has a vast array of scoring techniques.

+1

RapOZo
12-17-2012, 12:19 PM
Kobe Bryant is the best scorer in the game.

this is not about "this guy could be better if he wanted to"

That's just hypothetical horse crap.,

you cut the crap and you will see Kobe is the greatest scorer in the nba since 2000.

BklynKnicks3
12-17-2012, 12:33 PM
what is a scorer? someone who puts the ball in the basket at a high rate right? lol look at yourself you been brain washed by stepback melo bricks.

a pure scorer is a guy that can score anyway possible and make it look easy. Lebron has aavg post up game avg shooter and his midrange game is not consistant nothign pure about his game he is a freight train and the best player in nba I dont see him as a scorer he gets 10 points a game on fast break dunks. Can't go by stats just look at the players game. Jamal Crawford is a pure scorer he is just not consistant

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 12:40 PM
a pure scorer is a guy that can score anyway possible and make it look easy. Lebron has aavg post up game avg shooter and his midrange game is not consistant nothign pure about his game he is a freight train and the best player in nba I dont see him as a scorer he gets 10 points a game on fast break dunks. Can't go by stats just look at the players game. Jamal Crawford is a pure scorer he is just not consistant

Is a pure scorer and a scorer the same to you?

How do you know LeBron gets 10 points a game on fast break dunks? If Shaq got 30 points a game on dunks and Crawford 16 on jumpers would Crawford be a better scorer than Shaq?

All you're doing is twisting everything you can to fit your agenda.

Despite the fact that LeBron doesn't have the offensive repertoire as Melo he has still been a better scorer over the course of their career. What does that tell you?

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 12:47 PM
Is a pure scorer and a scorer the same to you?

How do you know LeBron gets 10 points a game on fast break dunks? If Shaq got 30 points a game on dunks and Crawford 16 on jumpers would Crawford be a better scorer than Shaq?

All you're doing is twisting everything you can to fit your agenda.

Despite the fact that LeBron doesn't have the offensive repertoire as Melo he has still been a better scorer over the course of their career. What does that tell you?

So you give no points ( pardon the pun ) on versitility?

bucketss
12-17-2012, 12:52 PM
a pure scorer is a guy that can score anyway possible and make it look easy. Lebron has aavg post up game avg shooter and his midrange game is not consistant nothign pure about his game he is a freight train and the best player in nba I dont see him as a scorer he gets 10 points a game on fast break dunks. Can't go by stats just look at the players game. Jamal Crawford is a pure scorer he is just not consistant

we're not talking about pure scorers though

Quietmoney
12-17-2012, 12:53 PM
Melo is a beast offensively! He's on another level than everyone else this year. I remember a guy named Allen Iverson that wasn't very efficient but he was by far the best scorer of his era. I would think that Durant is way more efficient than Iverson ever was, but no way in hell was he a better scorer or did he impact the game offensively the way Iverson did.

elledaddy
12-17-2012, 12:58 PM
I dont get what a pure scorer.

I would think the correct answer would be the guy who hast the best mix of number of points and the efficiency it comes at. I assume its Lebron and maybe Durant.

If the question was who has the most versatile scoring skill set, I can see why people would drop Melo's name, the guy has a vast array of scoring techniques.



Yeah when I answered the question, I was going off who has the best offensive skill set IMO. Some ppl( stat heads/advanced stat heads) will try to apply numbers to this when it's probably more of a eye test thing or common sense thing.

I would have to dissagree with anybody that say when they WATCH the ways Kobe or Melo score the ball, they see that same offensive skill set in Lebron's game.

It's like the same thing with Bynum and D Howard. Howard maybe the better player or more efficient player but Bynum has a much more polished offensive game.

bucketss
12-17-2012, 12:58 PM
Melo is a beast offensively! He's on another level than everyone else this year. I remember a guy named Allen Iverson that wasn't very efficient but he was by far the best scorer of his era. I would think that Durant is way more efficient than Iverson ever was, but no way in hell was he a better scorer or did he impact the game offensively the way Iverson did.

allen iverson.. by far a better scorer than kobe??.... :facepalm::facepalm:

Baller1
12-17-2012, 01:16 PM
Kobe and Melo fans will never accept modern times. Keep living in ancient times... The rest of us are going to be moving on and learning new ways to evaluate players correctly.

1. Durant
2. Lebron
3. Melo
4. Kobe
5. Harden

Chavacano
12-17-2012, 01:29 PM
Skill-wise, Carmelo Kyam Anthony and Kobe Bean Bryant.

BklynKnicks3
12-17-2012, 01:36 PM
Is a pure scorer and a scorer the same to you?

How do you know LeBron gets 10 points a game on fast break dunks? If Shaq got 30 points a game on dunks and Crawford 16 on jumpers would Crawford be a better scorer than Shaq?

All you're doing is twisting everything you can to fit your agenda.

Despite the fact that LeBron doesn't have the offensive repertoire as Melo he has still been a better scorer over the course of their career. What does that tell you?

Shaq is not a scorer. I veiw lebron almost same way a freak who is more athletic and stronger and faster then everyone who can handle the ball. If u can;t get ur own shot then u are not even in the convo

bucketss
12-17-2012, 01:41 PM
shaq is not a scorer? i swear please don't ever call out anyones knowledge of basketball again:facepalm:

bucketss
12-17-2012, 01:48 PM
shaq averaged near 40 a game in the finals but hes not a scorer because he can't do fancy fade aways lmao

bucketss
12-17-2012, 01:51 PM
with that logic i guess karl malone(2nd all time in scoring list) and wilt arent scorers either

:facepalm:

sp1derm00
12-17-2012, 01:53 PM
It has to be Kobe.

Kobe is assisted on 30% of his points.
Lebron 43%
Durant 59%
Melo 43%
Source: 82games.com

Take into consideration that Kobe is doing this without much help on the perimeter. Lebron has Wade setting him up and making plays for him as much as the other way around. KD plays really well off the ball, but damn 59% of his points are created for him... Westbrook has really stepped up his playmaking this season. Even Melo has 43% of his points assisted on. Kidd and Felton are both very good at what they do.

Now, I agree that playing off the ball is very much a part of scoring ability, but considering that Kobe is shooting over 60% TS% without the kind of help that the other "pure scorers" in the league have is remarkable. He's leading the pack in PPG and is 2nd in TS% behind Durant who has more shots created for him than he creates himself.

elledaddy
12-17-2012, 02:00 PM
Kobe and Melo fans will never accept modern times. Keep living in ancient times... The rest of us are going to be moving on and learning new ways to evaluate players correctly.

1. Durant
2. Lebron
3. Melo
4. Kobe
5. Harden


Thats the problem, we are not qualified evaluators. We are only fans. I think both advanced stats fans and non-advanced stats fans forget that sometimes. I am not into advanced stats that much but I dont dismiss them either. I just dont like the fact that it has replaced " ancient times" old fashioned thinking when it comes to talking to somebody. Here is an example of a convo with an advance stat fanatic...

ME : Yo, are you watching the Knicks Lakers game?
Advance stat head : Hell yeah, I havent missed one second of it.
ME : WORD?!! Well who's having a better game ? Kobe or Melo?
Advance stat head : Wait up, let me look up their true shooting % ,points per shot and who's usage rate is better then I'll tell you.
ME : I thought you are watching the game, why you gotta do all that just to answer the question
Advance stat head : I am watching but I have to holla at synergy sports and check up hollinger stats first because I dont wanna give you the wrong % of Melo's iso shots per monday night games when its raining...
ME : FUKK IT CUZZ.... I'll catch it on rewind.......

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 02:08 PM
Kobe and Melo fans will never accept modern times. Keep living in ancient times... The rest of us are going to be moving on and learning new ways to evaluate players correctly.

1. Durant
2. Lebron
3. Melo
4. Kobe
5. Harden

This is stupid

Baller1
12-17-2012, 02:13 PM
Thats the problem, we are not qualified evaluators. We are only fans. I think both advanced stats fans and non-advanced stats fans forget that sometimes. I am not into advanced stats that much but I dont dismiss them either. I just dont like the fact that it has replaced " ancient times" old fashioned thinking when it comes to talking to somebody. Here is an example of a convo with an advance stat fanatic...

ME : Yo, are you watching the Knicks Lakers game?
Advance stat head : Hell yeah, I havent missed one second of it.
ME : WORD?!! Well who's having a better game ? Kobe or Melo?
Advance stat head : Wait up, let me look up their true shooting % ,points per shot and who's usage rate is better then I'll tell you.
ME : I thought you are watching the game, why you gotta do all that just to answer the question
Advance stat head : I am watching but I have to holla at synergy sports and check up hollinger stats first because I dont wanna give you the wrong % of Melo's iso shots per monday night games when its raining...
ME : FUKK IT CUZZ.... I'll catch it on rewind.......

I would never do that. That's ridiculous... I agree it takes a combination of watching the game AND analyzing statistically. But there's a reason people look at Lebron and Durant as the best in the league. They dominate the eye test and the numbers. It's not hard to see that.


This is stupid

Your archaic view of the game is stupid.

Mamba Sting
12-17-2012, 02:20 PM
I dont NEED advanced stats to tell me that micheal jordan was the greatest ever. i dont NEED advanced stats to tell me wilt and russel dominated their era. i dont NEED advanced statistic to tell me that kobe was one of the greatest ever! This man is a legend. he is always capable of more than you think. If kobe wanted to drop his efficiency a tiny bit and quit worrying about getting his teammates involved, he could win the scoring title again. His level of play right now is incredible.

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 02:23 PM
Thats the problem, we are not qualified evaluators. We are only fans. I think both advanced stats fans and non-advanced stats fans forget that sometimes. I am not into advanced stats that much but I dont dismiss them either. I just dont like the fact that it has replaced " ancient times" old fashioned thinking when it comes to talking to somebody. Here is an example of a convo with an advance stat fanatic...

ME : Yo, are you watching the Knicks Lakers game?
Advance stat head : Hell yeah, I havent missed one second of it.
ME : WORD?!! Well who's having a better game ? Kobe or Melo?
Advance stat head : Wait up, let me look up their true shooting % ,points per shot and who's usage rate is better then I'll tell you.
ME : I thought you are watching the game, why you gotta do all that just to answer the question
Advance stat head : I am watching but I have to holla at synergy sports and check up hollinger stats first because I dont wanna give you the wrong % of Melo's iso shots per monday night games when its raining...
ME : FUKK IT CUZZ.... I'll catch it on rewind.......

lmao.. This

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-17-2012, 02:24 PM
Kobe and Melo fans will never accept modern times. Keep living in ancient times... The rest of us are going to be moving on and learning new ways to evaluate players correctly.

1. Durant
2. Lebron
3. Melo
4. Kobe
5. Harden

Says the durant and lebron gobbler.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-17-2012, 02:26 PM
It has to be Kobe.

Kobe is assisted on 30% of his points.
Lebron 43%
Durant 59%
Melo 43%
Source: 82games.com

Take into consideration that Kobe is doing this without much help on the perimeter. Lebron has Wade setting him up and making plays for him as much as the other way around. KD plays really well off the ball, but damn 59% of his points are created for him... Westbrook has really stepped up his playmaking this season. Even Melo has 43% of his points assisted on. Kidd and Felton are both very good at what they do.

Now, I agree that playing off the ball is very much a part of scoring ability, but considering that Kobe is shooting over 60% TS% without the kind of help that the other "pure scorers" in the league have is remarkable. He's leading the pack in PPG and is 2nd in TS% behind Durant who has more shots created for him than he creates himself.

Nice find!

Mamba Sting
12-17-2012, 02:31 PM
ME: You watching the lakers show man? kobe is tearing it up
Kobe Hater Nerd: yes this is quite perplexing. if you extrapolate his ws/48 and compare it to his usg% then kobe actually isnt even a top 10 player.
ME: i just asked if you were watching kobe this game
Kobe Hater Nerd: hold on, busy making one more calculation to make my stat more accurate
ME: dude, you arent even watching kobe play....

#watchthegame

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 02:35 PM
So you give no points ( pardon the pun ) on versitility?

I sure do. But does versatility trump output? I mean if I had to choose between Marc Gasol and Dwight Howard I wouldn't say Gasol is more versatile thus meaning he's better it means he's more versatile.

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 02:37 PM
Shaq is not a scorer. I veiw lebron almost same way a freak who is more athletic and stronger and faster then everyone who can handle the ball. If u can;t get ur own shot then u are not even in the convo

What do you call the most dominant scorer in the history of the NBA then? Since he's not a scorer. He's a rebounder then?

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 02:44 PM
I would never do that. That's ridiculous... I agree it takes a combination of watching the game AND analyzing statistically. But there's a reason people look at Lebron and Durant as the best in the league. They dominate the eye test and the numbers. It's not hard to see that.



Your archaic view of the game is stupid.

lmfao.. Ok bro. Tell you what, Im having an outstanding time watching games without using advanced stats. Its unfortunate that people like you will never enjoy the game of basketball in its pure form ever again. Keep thinking that A.I, Kobe, Melo, etc arent THAT good because they have low WS, TS, etc.. Have a good day genius..

BklynKnicks3
12-17-2012, 02:45 PM
What do you call the most dominant scorer in the history of the NBA then? Since he's not a scorer. He's a rebounder then?

just a great player great center. If u cant handle the ball and get ur own point u are more a finisher then a scorer

BaddNewz
12-17-2012, 02:49 PM
Lets not state the obvious melo is the best scorer in the league. Followed by Lebron and KD. Melo can shoot better than Lebron and his post game and his ability to finish at the rim is better than KDs.

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 02:50 PM
I sure do. But does versatility trump output? I mean if I had to choose between Marc Gasol and Dwight Howard I wouldn't say Gasol is more versatile thus meaning he's better it means he's more versatile.

I wouldnt say it trumps output, but I think in context it is more important than just output. For instance, Shaq was a domintate scorer because he could not be stopped in the paint at all. But I would argue that Hakeem was a better scorer because he could score in more ways than Shaq.

bucketss
12-17-2012, 02:51 PM
just a great player great center. If u cant handle the ball and get ur own point u are more a finisher then a scorer

so what you're saying is monta ellis is a better scorer than wilt chamberlin.

bucketss
12-17-2012, 02:52 PM
I wouldnt say it trumps output, but I think in context it is more important than just output. For instance, Shaq was a domintate scorer because he could not be stopped in the paint at all. But I would argue that Hakeem was a better scorer because he could score in more ways than Shaq.

he has a better offensive repertoire doesn't mean hes a better scorer. in that case adray blatche is a better scorer than dwight.

Baller1
12-17-2012, 02:54 PM
lmfao.. Ok bro. Tell you what, Im having an outstanding time watching games without using advanced stats. Its unfortunate that people like you will never enjoy the game of basketball in its pure form ever again. Keep thinking that A.I, Kobe, Melo, etc arent THAT good because they have low WS, TS, etc.. Have a good day genius..

Haha, I enjoy watching basketball as much as anyone. It's even more enjoyable when I don't let bias keep me from understanding the game to an even greater extent.

You don't like advanced statistics because they expose Kobe for what he is, an all-time great scorer who is overrated by his fans because he's not efficient.

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 02:55 PM
just a great player great center. If u cant handle the ball and get ur own point u are more a finisher then a scorer

So if scores more points on a consistent basis than LeBron that doesn't make Shaq a better scorer than LeBron because couldn't handle the ball and get his own points.

I see I finally buy into your logic. Being a scorer has nothing to do with actually scoring points but rather handles and creation. Revolutionizing.

What's most idiotic is that there are people who would agree with idiotic posts like yours for one reason, because it fits their own ignorant agenda.

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 02:57 PM
I wouldnt say it trumps output, but I think in context it is more important than just output. For instance, Shaq was a domintate scorer because he could not be stopped in the paint at all. But I would argue that Hakeem was a better scorer because he could score in more ways than Shaq.

Okay cool. Now tell me this. You need a player to score 50 for you to win a game against a top notch defense. Shaq or Hakeem who do you take?

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 03:08 PM
Haha, I enjoy watching basketball as much as anyone. It's even more enjoyable when I don't let bias keep me from understanding the game to an even greater extent.

You don't like advanced statistics because they expose Kobe for what he is, an all-time great scorer who is overrated by his fans because he's not efficient.

This is where I stop taking you people serious. You think people dont like advanced stats because of Kobe. I dont care what advanced stats make Kobe look like. No advanced stat in the world could convince me that Kobe is "Overrated". I just dont care for advanced stats in sports where they dont belong. Give me advanced stats in Tennis or golf, not basketball..

NYY 26 to 7
12-17-2012, 03:09 PM
It seems people have many different ideas on what they believe a scorer is and then there are some here you want to turn this into a best player debate. Efficiency IMO is not the best definition for best scorer. LeBron for me would have to be 4th - because of what others have said he really hasn't developed a full offensive repertoire. He is the best player in the game but if I needed one bucket I'm going Melo/Kobe/Durant. They can just beat you in more ways and it makes it a tougher guard. LeBron is amazing going to the hole and his size and speed are unmatched but its a dribble pull up jumper or barrel into the lane. He is a great great player and the hands down best all around player in the game. He's very efficient and doesn't force as much as Kobe and Melo do but Kobe and Melo also do that because there are somethings they can do that others can't. There is a reason that lots of writers, players, coaches, and analysts say this. LeBron is great at everything but doesn't mean he is the absolute best at everything - its no knock on him at all.

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 03:10 PM
Okay cool. Now tell me this. You need a player to score 50 for you to win a game against a top notch defense. Shaq or Hakeem who do you take?

Shaq, depending on what kind of defender he's going up against in the post.

mike44
12-17-2012, 03:13 PM
Thats the problem, we are not qualified evaluators. We are only fans. I think both advanced stats fans and non-advanced stats fans forget that sometimes. I am not into advanced stats that much but I dont dismiss them either. I just dont like the fact that it has replaced " ancient times" old fashioned thinking when it comes to talking to somebody. Here is an example of a convo with an advance stat fanatic...

ME : Yo, are you watching the Knicks Lakers game?
Advance stat head : Hell yeah, I havent missed one second of it.
ME : WORD?!! Well who's having a better game ? Kobe or Melo?
Advance stat head : Wait up, let me look up their true shooting % ,points per shot and who's usage rate is better then I'll tell you.
ME : I thought you are watching the game, why you gotta do all that just to answer the question
Advance stat head : I am watching but I have to holla at synergy sports and check up hollinger stats first because I dont wanna give you the wrong % of Melo's iso shots per monday night games when its raining...
ME : FUKK IT CUZZ.... I'll catch it on rewind.......
Well unless you have wathed every game of every team then you cant tell who the best scorer is, that is why you need stats basic and advanced to see who is better. I dont think anyone has watched every game so we need stats to evaluate the players. People who have watched more games of melo then durant might say melo is better while people who have watched all of durant games will say he is better. No one watches every game so we have to go with the stats, and right now, they say that durant is the best scorer.

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 03:20 PM
Well unless you have wathed every game of every team then you cant tell who the best scorer is, that is why you need stats basic and advanced to see who is better. I dont think anyone has watched every game so we need stats to evaluate the players. People who have watched more games of melo then durant might say melo is better while people who have watched all of durant games will say he is better. No one watches every game so we have to go with the stats, and right now, they say that durant is the best scorer.

But again, system and players around you play a role. Stats dont take those things into account.

mngopher35
12-17-2012, 03:22 PM
I think people are arguing different thing. Some people (myself included) take best scorer to mean whoever is best at putting up points efficiently. This is where I said

1. Durant
2. Lebron
3. Kobe/Melo (I am basing it off more than the small sample size of just this year, using last year as well. It gets different if we are talking only this season so far)

If your taking best scorer to mean who can score in the most ways and has the most skill and versatility to their scoring, then Lebron drops to the bottom of that list and melo and kobe move up.

NYY 26 to 7
12-17-2012, 03:23 PM
Okay cool. Now tell me this. You need a player to score 50 for you to win a game against a top notch defense. Shaq or Hakeem who do you take?

Did you ever watch Hakeem in his prime? Which was also prob the period with the best centers ever? Shaq is great I love Shaq and hate Hakeem actually but your making this statement like Shaq is some sure thing over Hakeem. It is a good comparison for this argument though because Shaq was so physically dominant he just dunked on everyone and then about 4 years in he developed the little jump hook and forget it he couldn't be stopped. Guys like Hakeem and Ewing never had the sheer size of Shaq but developed great turn around jumpers and a bevy of post moves. So who is the better scorer. For the sake of the argument I prefer the guy who just has developed their game so much with the moves and intricacies of scoring. If your asking who I'd rather have on my team - I'll take the physically dominating presence that comes along once in a lifetime like LeBron or Shaq. They are physically unstoppable.

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 03:29 PM
I think people are arguing different thing. Some people (myself included) take best scorer to mean whoever is best at putting up points efficiently. This is where I said

1. Durant
2. Lebron
3. Kobe/Melo (I am basing it off more than the small sample size of just this year, using last year as well. It gets different if we are talking only this season so far)

If your taking best scorer to mean who can score in the most ways and has the most skill and versatility to their scoring, then Lebron drops to the bottom of that list and melo and kobe move up.

This is a good post

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 03:29 PM
Shaq, depending on what kind of defender he's going up against in the post.

Top notch like I said earlier.

So if you feel comfortable with Shaq being able to put up a greater volume of points than Hakeem then why don't you think Shaq is the better scorer? Being a more refined scorer and being a better scorer aren't the same.

Hear me I understand what you're saying I'm just trying to say that being a more refined scorer doesn't automatically make you better. There is more that goes into scoring than being more refined. You can have the most fluid offensive game known to man but if that doesn't translate into actual buckets how valuable a scorer are you really.

nickdymez
12-17-2012, 03:34 PM
Top notch like I said earlier.

So if you feel comfortable with Shaq being able to put up a greater volume of points than Hakeem then why don't you think Shaq is the better scorer? Being a more refined scorer and being a better scorer aren't the same.

Hear me I understand what you're saying I'm just trying to say that being a more refined scorer doesn't automatically make you better. There is more that goes into scoring than being more refined. You can have the most fluid offensive game known to man but if that doesn't translate into actual buckets how valuable a scorer are you really.

agree 100%

Swashcuff
12-17-2012, 03:38 PM
Did you ever watch Hakeem in his prime? Which was also prob the period with the best centers ever? Shaq is great I love Shaq and hate Hakeem actually but your making this statement like Shaq is some sure thing over Hakeem. It is a good comparison for this argument though because Shaq was so physically dominant he just dunked on everyone and then about 4 years in he developed the little jump hook and forget it he couldn't be stopped. Guys like Hakeem and Ewing never had the sheer size of Shaq but developed great turn around jumpers and a bevy of post moves. So who is the better scorer. For the sake of the argument I prefer the guy who just has developed their game so much with the moves and intricacies of scoring. If your asking who I'd rather have on my team - I'll take the physically dominating presence that comes along once in a lifetime like LeBron or Shaq. They are physically unstoppable.

I've seen enough of young and prime Hakeem to make an accurate assessment of his offensive abilities.

You guys are completely missing the point. It matters not how a player gets his points once he's able to do so at a high level on a consistent basis without hurting his team in the process that's all that really matters when you ask the question of who is a better scorer than whom.

Marc Gasol or Shaquille O'Neal? Marc is every bit as refined with a smoother face up game, better touch on his jumper and way more reliable at the line. Marc has all that you mention in the bold on Shaq. Based on your reasoning what's your choice?