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View Full Version : Has Carmelo always been this good, or is he a different player?



Chronz
12-14-2012, 03:40 PM
Heard Stephen A Smith say something along the lines of, Melo has never done whatever it takes to win, until now.


Im confused, Melo is playing his best ball but is it really something we've never seen before. Is Melo such a different player despite similar stats or has he always been this good, just never had the team around him to get the MVP pub?

Sadds The Gr8
12-14-2012, 03:46 PM
still early. I wanna see him doing this in Feb and March, then I'll be impressed. But for now I'll say same player, more hype

tapajafri
12-14-2012, 03:47 PM
The influence of Tyson Chandler and Jason Kidd has been infectious on that Knicks team. Everyone, especially Anthony, has been benefitting from their leadership and DEFENSE. We'll see if he keeps it up the entire year, and into seasons beyond this one.

ewing
12-14-2012, 03:52 PM
I think he is the same player. He might be more focused this year that he was in some past years but the dude always had a redic skill set. I also think he had made an adjustment offensively where he takes less contested long 2 point shots and more 3s. Great player, good caste, super motivated. Right now its a good combo for the knicks and Melo

Go Melo

Rivera
12-14-2012, 03:52 PM
Same player always been this good has better influences around him and theres something about melo and the olympic expirence when he comes back more motivated

Hes playin like he did in 08 but at a higher level than that. Hes playing smart he trust his coach nd his players around him

Trust and influences can go a long way in life

LongIslandIcedZ
12-14-2012, 03:53 PM
Players figure it out at different points.

I think Lebron figured it out in the last couple years. I see Carmelo going through it now, he obviously wont be as good as Lebron will be.

But I've said I think he has the natural ability to be the third best player in basketball, but its all about figuring it out and putting it all together.

Kidd is helping an immense amount.

Chronz
12-14-2012, 03:54 PM
I think he is the same player. He might be more focused this year that he was in some past years but the dude always had a redic skill set. I also think he had made an adjustment offensively where he takes less contested long 2 point shots and more 3s. Great player, good caste, super motivated. Right now its a good combo for the knicks and Melo

Go Melo

Well put

GiantsSwaGG
12-14-2012, 03:57 PM
2 words

Jason Kidd

/thread

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 04:04 PM
Heard Stephen A Smith say something along the lines of, Melo has never done whatever it takes to win, until now.


Im confused, Melo is playing his best ball but is it really something we've never seen before. Is Melo such a different player despite similar stats or has he always been this good, just never had the team around him to get the MVP pub?

Are you looking at the same numbers? Its still early, but statistically, the difference between this 'Melo and last years 'Melo is night and day.

Plus if you're watching you'd see he's going hard on the defensive end which is definitely something new.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2012, 04:07 PM
If he stays consistent through 82+, he has simply been playing his best ball, no doubt. But we have seen dominant stretches from Melo before. So I would need to see it for a season before I claim he is playing his best basketball at this point of his career.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 04:08 PM
He's well above his career average in almost every offensive statistic, (improved shot selection) and he's playing D. What else should be said?

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 04:11 PM
So the question begs to be asked, if this is in fact 'Melo's supporting cast allowing him to excel, where are all the dullards who bashed the Knicks offseason acquisitions?

krisxsong
12-14-2012, 04:12 PM
He's always had this ability.

PurpleJesus
12-14-2012, 04:13 PM
He has always been very talented, things are going his way now.

0nekhmer
12-14-2012, 04:16 PM
He's got a very well built team around him defensively and offensively. I haven't watched a lot of him lately but have seen his stats and highlights and he's looking great.

b@llhog24
12-14-2012, 04:17 PM
Could be maturity.

STA_PLAR
12-14-2012, 04:22 PM
i dont care ....he is playing well....knicks are winning ...the rest is bullshitn lol

Dmagic87
12-14-2012, 04:24 PM
He is the same exact player with a little more leadership and effort, still the biggest reason why he is great now is because he finally has a decent supporting cast. He has played with the likes of AI, Camby, Kmart, Nene, etc... they aren't bad players but they clearly are not going to help the spacing. The one time he had an in prime Billups, he went to the conference finals.

The guy has never had the supporting cast that the Durant's and Rose's of the world have.

QueensG_718
12-14-2012, 04:32 PM
Hes the same player. Just more focused and has a better team around him. He trusts in his teammates more thats for sure and hes buying in to the team concept. Also he doesnt really take any bad shots and lets the game come to him more then ever. Those are the small differences i see but as far as his skillset, hes always been a phenominal player with the best offensive skillset in the game. meloooo!!!

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-14-2012, 04:33 PM
If he stays consistent through 82+, he has simply been playing his best ball, no doubt. But we have seen dominant stretches from Melo before. So I would need to see it for a season before I claim he is playing his best basketball at this point of his career.

This. Its still early.

ChickenSouvlaki
12-14-2012, 04:34 PM
If he stays consistent through 82+, he has simply been playing his best ball, no doubt. But we have seen dominant stretches from Melo before. So I would need to see it for a season before I claim he is playing his best basketball at this point of his career.

Agree with this. He's been dynamite but its only 20 games and like you said he's had stretches of dominance before.

Chronz
12-14-2012, 04:36 PM
Are you looking at the same numbers? Its still early, but statistically, the difference between this 'Melo and last years 'Melo is night and day.

Plus if you're watching you'd see he's going hard on the defensive end which is definitely something new.

True, he is playing his best ball and on the surface those stats are night and day. Didn't think they were that different until now actually but I still have to add that there is a key difference in his position.

Hes playing exclusively as a 4-man, and even though hes trying hard by his standards, hes not a great defensive player at that position. I believe this is what has led to some of NY's defensive slide, looks like they rely on TC more than they did last year. The payoff is an unstoppable offense (though I doubt they sustain these shooting marks) so its obviously for the good of the team as constructed. Im just saying that net difference between what he puts up and what he allows isnt as large as the surface stats indicate.

How much does that detract from a career year? Prolly very little, but I feel it must be acknowledged and its one of the things I want to keep an eye on this season.

All that said, if he closes out the year on a similar tear and the Knicks remain atop the conference, my complaints go out the window. The Knicks have found a way to maximize his talents and still play championship caliber ball. A fine MVP choice given the year.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 04:45 PM
True, he is playing his best ball and on the surface those stats are night and day. Didn't think they were that different until now actually but I still have to add that there is a key difference in his position.

Hes playing exclusively as a 4-man, and even though hes trying hard by his standards, hes not a great defensive player at that position. I believe this is what has led to some of NY's defensive slide, looks like they rely on TC more than they did last year. The payoff is an unstoppable offense (though I doubt they sustain these shooting marks) so its obviously for the good of the team as constructed. Im just saying that net difference between what he puts up and what he allows isnt as large as the surface stats indicate.

How much does that detract from a career year? Prolly very little, but I feel it must be acknowledged and its one of the things I want to keep an eye on this season.

All that said, if he closes out the year on a similar tear and the Knicks remain atop the conference, my complaints go out the window. The Knicks have found a way to maximize his talents and still play championship caliber ball. A fine MVP choice given the year.
What will be interesting is what happens when Amar'e returns.. How will he be utilized.. It'd be madness to slide 'Melo back to the 3 at this point.

Btw Chronz, I'd like to get into defensive metrics and the like. Its an area i know very little about. What would be a good place to start?

Gibby23
12-14-2012, 04:49 PM
He was this good in the 2009 playoffs when they took the Lakers to 6 and were a serious contender. I thought he was a top 3 player then. He is back to that level.

Rockice_8
12-14-2012, 04:59 PM
He's putting in the effort on the other end. He'll never be a great defender but effort goes a long way and you can see it in him. With guys like Kidd and Chandler playing good D they're almost forcing him to play it.

Nothing really new on the offensive end. Maybe he's shooting a slightly higher % cause of the open looks he's getting compared to forcing 1 on 1 shots up.

With a good team around him to cover his weaknesses he can do what he does best and that's score, and he's hot right now.

colinskik
12-14-2012, 04:59 PM
It's clear as day that Melo is a different type of player this year compared with his career and even last year individually. Most notably, his shot selection is much better, he's setting up teammates extremely well, and he's playing D! Real, hard-nosed D!

colinskik
12-14-2012, 05:02 PM
Hes the same player. Just more focused and has a better team around him. He trusts in his teammates more thats for sure and hes buying in to the team concept. Also he doesnt really take any bad shots and lets the game come to him more then ever. Those are the small differences i see but as far as his skillset, hes always been a phenominal player with the best offensive skillset in the game. meloooo!!!

Right, so you just argued that he's a different player judging by the points you made.

Chronz
12-14-2012, 05:11 PM
What will be interesting is what happens when Amar'e returns.. How will he be utilized.. It'd be madness to slide 'Melo back to the 3 at this point.

Btw Chronz, I'd like to get into defensive metrics and the like. Its an area i know very little about. What would be a good place to start?

Just play around with +/-, counterpart numbers and synergy. Thats basically all we have available. Not much I know but its better than nothing and can still hint at things your seeing on the floor.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
12-14-2012, 05:12 PM
I've watched Carmelo since his Oak Hill days. He's always been this good. But the things that have impressed me this year, is his vision, and smart decision making from a double team, his effort on defense, and just overall becoming a leader. I've seen Melo dive for more loose balls this season, then any other time in his career. I'm impressed. Hope he continues it, throughout the playoffs. He's got a fire in his eyes, that I've never seen before. He's determined, and dedicated.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
12-14-2012, 05:14 PM
Brings a smile to face everytime I hear "MVP" chants when Melo steps to the freethrow line.

TheNumber37
12-14-2012, 05:18 PM
in his second best season he played with Billups, now in in his best its kidd. He's got a team similarly talented (slightly more) than his team in Denver.

The differences are playing in New York, playing for Woodson, and watching LeBron win it all, MVP, ring, gold.

RonE Coleman
12-14-2012, 05:18 PM
Everyone seems to be forgetting how he ended the season last year, this is not a flash in the pan for him. He was the Eastern conference player of the month to end the season then at the Olympics Im sure he saw the dedication that guys like Lebron, Durant and Kobe put in and realized its now or never.

Also, Jason Kidd has been a HUGE impact on Melo and the Knicks in general. So Ill say same player, just more focused and team oriented.

Da Knicks
12-14-2012, 05:21 PM
Same player different teamates, jvg said it in a couple of games he would rather Melo shoot with 3 defenders on him than have Fields, Jeffries, and Douglas shoot wide open. Of course all the stats are going to look wierd when those shots are not going in compared to having the cast he has this year. Having D'antoni as your coach will make you lose faith in yourself when he wants the pg to have the all say on the court. Melo has the most skill of any player in the league as far as scoring and creating the double. He is not a Scottie Pippen-Lebron type sf who excells on athlecism to create his shot, he is more of in the mold of the Bryants and Jordans of the world. Im not saying he is either one but his game resembles more that style.

If he gets doubled he passes out and finds the open man, stats are not the way to go when looking at skill. Melo has being playing great for a while but last season not having a pg and having to play point himself was not the best fit for him or the knicks. He played injured last year as well so to me same player different teamates.

Crazy thing is that Donnie Walsh had envisioned Melo and Lbj together at the garden, man that would of being just filthy. As they get older and athlecism goes down people will see what skill Melo really has.

Gandalf
12-14-2012, 05:25 PM
i think he has always been this good think he finally has the correct teammates to win

PJAF
12-14-2012, 05:27 PM
He has always had this talent. Being on a contender and surrounded by key players and a coach that pulls out the best in you certainly magnifies that talent.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
12-14-2012, 05:41 PM
in his second best season he played with Billups, now in in his best its kidd. He's got a team similarly talented (slightly more) than his team in Denver.

The differences are playing in New York, playing for Woodson, and watching LeBron win it all, MVP, ring, gold.

Good post. Only thing I disagree with is, this Knicks team would smash that Nugget's team. Just because of the depth, and overall toughness. The only person who gave them any defensive presense, was Kenyon, and he gave them there attitude on D. Kleiza, and JR, were too inconsistent. JR today is 10x better and smarter then JR of 2008. He's another guy, I'm proud of.

east fb knicks
12-14-2012, 05:50 PM
Melo for MVP

jimm120
12-14-2012, 06:03 PM
Are you looking at the same numbers? Its still early, but statistically, the difference between this 'Melo and last years 'Melo is night and day.

Plus if you're watching you'd see he's going hard on the defensive end which is definitely something new.

You can't take "Last year's melo" into consideration. He was Really, really, REALLLLLLY taking into consideration the whole "defer to the others and allow lin to shine" thing that the Media and Dantoni wanted. He would repeatedly have 12 shot to 15 shot games only. That's just not enough for a player as talented as Melo.

I think the question is this the same melo as years past...as inhis first with NY or the years in Denver...and I believe it MOSTLY is.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 06:04 PM
You can't take "Last year's melo" into consideration. He was Really, really, REALLLLLLY taking into consideration the whole "defer to the others and allow lin to shine" thing that the Media and Dantoni wanted. He would repeatedly have 12 shot to 15 shot games only. That's just not enough for a player as talented as Melo.

I think the question is this the same melo as years past...as inhis first with NY or the years in Denver...and I believe it MOSTLY is.
Ok.. Then take any other season of his as an example. He's still way above his quota.


Just play around with +/-, counterpart numbers and synergy. Thats basically all we have available. Not much I know but its better than nothing and can still hint at things your seeing on the floor.
Thanks.

JEDean89
12-14-2012, 06:16 PM
his per is over 26, which is much higher than his average, he is shooting 46% from downtown, which is a 13% increase over his average, he is shooting 47% from the floor, which is about 4% over his average. His rebounds and assists are down but his defense is better. He had some spurts in Denver like this, but he is definitely improved by Jason Kidd and his olympic experience.

xxplayerxx23
12-14-2012, 06:17 PM
He has always had the talent to be a top player in this league, there is no doubt he is one of the best offensive players in the game and now with his maturity and the players around him its time to make a run. Time to put that he can't win **** away. Lebron winning maybe has had an effect that its his time to take the team and win it all.

bucketss
12-14-2012, 06:24 PM
in his second best season he played with Billups, now in in his best its kidd. He's got a team similarly talented (slightly more) than his team in Denver.

The differences are playing in New York, playing for Woodson, and watching LeBron win it all, MVP, ring, gold.

i remember knick fans telling me this was the most talented team melo has ever played on by far, i agree with you 100%

Ebbs
12-14-2012, 06:59 PM
He has alaways been this good. But he is at heart a scorer. He isn't someone who is going to do everything for you. He is going to put up points and if you can build a team around that awesome if not he isn't the franchise player for you.

SportsFanatic10
12-14-2012, 08:08 PM
he's always had this in him imo, hes just finally tapping into it. it seems he's realizing his full potential this season and has become more focused and maybe even desperate for success at this point of his career.

JordansBulls
12-14-2012, 08:25 PM
2009

Andrew32
12-14-2012, 08:45 PM
The biggest different is his focus, determination and most of all his effort.

I definitly think Jason Kidd has helped him stay focused but this new consistent game by game effort is incredible and something he has never shown before.

He was always talented but lacked focus, direction and his effort would be good in some games and bad in others.
He seems ready to take on the role of team engine and put in the effort every night which is difficult but he is capable of it.

I honestly was never a huge fan of Melo in the past but this year he is really changing my view of him and turning me into one.

--23--
12-14-2012, 08:49 PM
Carmelo is the same player he just have a good foundation around him, similar to the Nuggets in 09' and 10'(Karl missing the playoffs to deal with cancer hurt the team mentally though).

Andrew32
12-14-2012, 08:52 PM
Also...

Melo's former career high PER = 22.2
Melo's current PER = 26.1

PatriotsGirl
12-14-2012, 08:59 PM
Melo has been making my daily fantasy league happy. :)

Alayla
12-14-2012, 08:59 PM
Different player

Chronz
12-14-2012, 10:19 PM
Also...

Melo's former career high PER = 22.2
Melo's current PER = 26.1
Knowing the limitations of counterpart numbers, what do you make of these facts:


Current Net PER: +8.5

Last 6 years
2012: +9.0
2011: +7.1
2010: +9.0
2009: +8.1
2008: +7.2


As great as he has been offensively, his defensive numbers seem to have taken a step back. The Knicks as a team have regressed from last year. Hes giving up slightly more PPP according to synergy, he still sports bad defensive +/- numbers. For all his efforts, which do have value (rebounding wise hes a beast) hes still not a great defensive 4.

knicksfan42
12-14-2012, 10:25 PM
The Knicks have regressed defensively, because of Tyson he just isn't as good this year as he was last year. He's improved offensively but taken a significant step backward defensively.

ManRam
12-14-2012, 10:25 PM
His second year in the NBA (I think...forget what year)...he was playing like a top 3-5 player. Besides that, he never was.

SO yeah, something is different/better about him. Pretty simple answer.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 10:37 PM
Just thinking about the transition he made from Denver to New York. During his time in Denver, 'Melo had gaudy numbers, regular season success, and thats pretty much all he had to do. He was considered elite by nearly everyone. (Stat gurus had their own opinions)

Its a horse of a different colour in the Big Apple. 'Melo is now under a microscope, playing in-front of the world's most ruthless fans. The underlying criticisms toward his game - that lay dormant for so many years in Denver, now began to surface. During the Jeremy Lin fiasco, 'Melo told Stephen A. Smith he had "never been called a selfish player before", i don't think he was lying. Failing is one thing, but failing in New York is a whole 'nother thing. They will let you have it in New York.

This year feels different; walking away triumphantly from the Olympics, 'Melo has his coach, he has his team, he has JASON KIDD, (thats right, i said it) - Its all on 'Melo now. There is no one else to pass the buck. Its either fight or flight - And i thought it was flight after the Memphis loss. I was wrong.. He could've reverted then, and he could've reverted after losing to Houston..

I've been 'Melo's biggest critic but right now i'm left with my foot firmly in my mouth.. Now i'm just enjoying my Knicks, winning and grinning, you know the score.

The only elephant in the room is Amar'e. :eyebrow:

knicksfan42
12-14-2012, 10:37 PM
As for Melo, he's been playing awesome, because on the Knicks he finally has a decent team.



There is a reason why last year many Knicks fans, including myself, thought we'd be ****.
This was our bench to start the season (first 3rd): TD, Billy Walker, Renaldo Balkman, Jeffries, Harrellson, Bibby. Josh Harrellson was our sixth man. Oh and TD was the worst player in the NBA last year. He started at the beginning, then Shumpert started (not a PG). Easily the worst bench and PG in the NBA. Oh and lets not forget about Amare having his worst season since his rookie year.


Melo had a down year, because until we got Lin, Jr, Baron, Novak he literally had **** to work with. 1/2 our plays B.L. (Before Lin) TD would struggle to dribble the ball up (15-18 seconds), then with two seconds left on the clock give it to Melo. I would say 90% of the time he passed to a wide open man they bricked it. One quick look at the roster easily explains why.


It is no coincidence Melo started playing great once he got merely competent teammates vs. guys that would struggle to make a roster in the NBA today (which was what our bench and PG position was composed of to start last year).


Its definitely not a surprise for Knicks fans or at least it shouldn't be.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 10:41 PM
Knowing the limitations of counterpart numbers, what do you make of these facts:


Current Net PER: +8.5

Last 6 years
2012: +9.0
2011: +7.1
2010: +9.0
2009: +8.1
2008: +7.2


As great as he has been offensively, his defensive numbers seem to have taken a step back. The Knicks as a team have regressed from last year. Hes giving up slightly more PPP according to synergy, he still sports bad defensive +/- numbers. For all his efforts, which do have value (rebounding wise hes a beast) hes still not a great defensive 4.

That just seems odd to me. I've never seen such tenacity from 'Melo on that end. I'm sure most Knick fans would agree. Regardless of what the numbers say, i'm sure in my heart he's playing better D than last season.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 10:53 PM
I think he has always been this good, but is a system player. He needs the right environment to succeed. Basically, his Basketball IQ is not that good in the sense that he can't adapt to his surroundings...his surroundings must adapt to him.

xxplayerxx23
12-14-2012, 10:54 PM
He is playing the best d in his career! At least IMO

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 10:59 PM
He needs the right environment to succeed. Basically, his Basketball IQ is not that good in the sense that he can't adapt to his surroundings...his surroundings must adapt to him.

Basically he needs to be surrounded by low USG% shooters and defenders ala Iverson.

Hustla23
12-14-2012, 11:00 PM
He's definitely not the same player. Last year's Melo was so iso-driven that it made me nuts. This year's Melo is taking what the defense gives him, moving the ball, and picking his spots much better than I ever recall him doing.

Also, he's taking more three pointers than he's ever had. This coincides directly with him taking a lesser amount of long 2's and stupid isolation shots, and unsurprisingly results in a much, much higher efficiency.

114 Ortg on 34+ USG is nothing to sniff at.

Anji
12-14-2012, 11:00 PM
This is 2009 and 2010 Melo in New York.

Nothing to see here.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 11:01 PM
He's definitely not the same player. Last year's Melo was so iso-driven that it made me nuts. This year's Melo is taking what the defense gives him, moving the ball, and picking his spots much better than I ever recall him doing.

Also, he's taking more three pointers than he's ever had. This coincides directly with him taking a lesser amount of long 2's and stupid isolation shots, and unsurprisingly results in a much, much higher efficiency.

114 Ortg on 34+ USG is nothing to sniff at.

Do you think this is the new 'Melo?

Hustla23
12-14-2012, 11:05 PM
Do you think this is the new 'Melo?
I hope so. If he can keep up his accuracy from three, which I don't think is entirely implausible, then we should be good.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 11:10 PM
I hope so. If he can keep up his accuracy from three, which I don't think is entirely implausible, then we should be good.

I'll tell you what is entirely IMPOSSIBLE, and that is Felton and Ronnie Brewer keeping up this accuracy from 3. That i'm sure of. I'll take it while it lasts though..

Hustla23
12-14-2012, 11:37 PM
I'll tell you what is entirely IMPOSSIBLE, and that is Felton and Ronnie Brewer keeping up this accuracy from 3. That i'm sure of. I'll take it while it lasts though..
Yeah I don't think J. Kidd is gonna shoot 53% from downtown either, haha.

But let's see what happens. Even if there is a dip in the 3 point accuracy, the offense should still be good enough to do some damage.

It's the defense that I'm worried about really. It's just regressed so much since last year. I hope Shump coming back is enough to help us climb back into the top 10 in defensive efficiency.

DragonJaii
12-14-2012, 11:53 PM
same player, just got kidd right now to mentor him a little.

Chronz
12-15-2012, 03:13 AM
That just seems odd to me. I've never seen such tenacity from 'Melo on that end. I'm sure most Knick fans would agree. Regardless of what the numbers say, i'm sure in my heart he's playing better D than last season.
The numbers are by no means concrete but if it holds up then it wouldnt exactly be out of line with typical results, usually the payoff you see when natural SF play more PF is that they become more effective offensively but lose something defensively.

If you think it of it this way, hes playing harder but hes also playing a position that typically demands more as well. Thus the increased effort has been offset from a position that demands more effort. If he was a lesser defender he would be getting crushed and the small ball thing wouldn't work. But looking at all his isolation possessions defensively, a theme emerges.

Just my theory as a non-NY fan who has seen most of his games this year. Ive seen typical lapses from him, hes fighting for position on the blocks and doing great on the boards but it comes at the expense of his weakside roaming, he doesnt help and recover as much as I like from a typical 4-man. How else would you explain the defensive drop off as a team? More Amare certainly isnt the cause.

JOhnnyTHaJet
12-15-2012, 03:32 AM
Same player, same potential I once saw, but is actually consistent as of late. I really dont like him because of his inefficiency/ lack of defense, but if he can keep this up (and thats a big if) then I could definitely see him being 1 or 2 in MVP voting.

IndyRealist
12-15-2012, 04:20 AM
He's well above his career average in almost every offensive statistic, (improved shot selection) and he's playing D. What else should be said?

Compared to the last two years, per minute, his points and 3pt shot attempts are up. His turnovers, blocks, and fouls are the same. His assists and steals are down, and his rebounding is slightly down. Not sure what stats you're looking at.

Where Melo is really improved statistically this year is 3pt % and attempts. Shooting more 3's and shooting them better makes him a lot more efficient. Everything else looks pretty much the same or worse. I can't comment on his D because I've only watched one Knicks game this year.

I will say that on the volume of 3's he's shooting, his % is likely unsustainable for an entire season. He's a career 33.1% 3pt shooter, and he's shooting 45.5% so far. At 7.6 3's per 48 minutes, over a season that would make him a better outside shooter than Ray Allen.

IndyRealist
12-15-2012, 04:24 AM
The numbers are by no means concrete but if it holds up then it wouldnt exactly be out of line with typical results, usually the payoff you see when natural SF play more PF is that they become more effective offensively but lose something defensively.

If you think it of it this way, hes playing harder but hes also playing a position that typically demands more as well. Thus the increased effort has been offset from a position that demands more effort. If he was a lesser defender he would be getting crushed and the small ball thing wouldn't work. But looking at all his isolation possessions defensively, a theme emerges.

Just my theory as a non-NY fan who has seen most of his games this year. Ive seen typical lapses from him, hes fighting for position on the blocks and doing great on the boards but it comes at the expense of his weakside roaming, he doesnt help and recover as much as I like from a typical 4-man. How else would you explain the defensive drop off as a team? More Amare certainly isnt the cause.

On an tagentially related topic, I'd like to point out that you just argued for position adjustments. ;)

Ebbs
12-15-2012, 05:05 AM
It still irks me that after a bad year people thought he regressed so heavily.

It was a tough year with a lot of transition for the Knicks.

Sssmush
12-15-2012, 05:15 AM
He seems to play better when he feels a certain way. When his role, his teammates, fan and media support, a winning record, coaching, system and his own training align properly, he seems to be able to get into the zone and play his best.

He also did great in the olympics, and before all the "Melo-drama" BS perpetrated by Denver had played outstandingly at times for the Nuggets. The whole melo-drama thing and the uncertainty of that followed by the strike probably caused him to have two really sub-par seasons. But before that he was great.

Obviously he was a legend in the NCAAs also, so he has a history of being an amazing player.

My read on him is that he is very sensitive emotionally. VERY sensitive. So, when the fans/coaches/media is down on him or skeptical, he feels very defensive and doesn't play as well, he gets defiant or rebellious or something, and his touch is off. But when he feels happy and accepted, he loosens up and that's when he can play his best. Like things need to be happy and loose and supportive for him, then he can be that weapon. So NY just needs to understand that is when he is at his best, when he's happy and relaxed.

Chronz
12-15-2012, 12:18 PM
On an tagentially related topic, I'd like to point out that you just argued for position adjustments. ;)

More like counterpart adjustments

But yes it has its merits, mostly when you go from a swing to a big position. But I think they overdo it when differing between positional classifications that I find pretty arbitrary for the most part.

Chronz
12-15-2012, 12:20 PM
It still irks me that after a bad year people thought he regressed so heavily.

It was a tough year with a lot of transition for the Knicks.

Why would facts irk you? He did regress. I know they werent without reason but we should strike to rank players based on what they are proving.

Money_23
12-15-2012, 12:26 PM
mentally he's a different player. It seems like he has a lot of motivation.

Hustlenomics
12-15-2012, 12:30 PM
He's always been this good im wondering if you guys watch basketball before criticizing

Chronz
12-15-2012, 12:34 PM
He's always been this good im wondering if you guys watch basketball before criticizing

So your argument against 36 people voting against is that they dont watch and that the 35 who voted hes the same do watch?


This is borderline trolling/spamming

slyone_nyc
12-15-2012, 12:40 PM
He's always had the talent and ability to play at this level, but never had the focus or commitment to play hard on both sides of the ball. if anyone voted he's the same player obviously hasn't been paying close attention... he is playing good defense, rebounding better, making the extra pass, a better 3 point shooter and he trusts his team mates which has been key to his success... all in all, he's undoubtedly become a better all around player and a better leader...

elledaddy
12-15-2012, 12:57 PM
Why would facts irk you? He did regress. I know they werent without reason but we should strike to rank players based on what they are proving.



Some of you guys are comical. Melo didnt " regress", he had a down year. He's 9 years in and had a "down" year compared only to his own previous year. You shouldnt say that a player of 9 years is in regression based of one down year stat wise if his actual skill didnt diminish. No one would argue that Melo's skill regressed last year so it's safe to say that he just had a ''down" year.

For instance, Kobe is having his best season so far in atleast 5 years across the board but not one person would say he's showing "Progress". They just say he's having a " good" year. It works both ways

Chronz
12-15-2012, 02:32 PM
Some of you guys are comical. Melo didnt " regress", he had a down year. He's 9 years in and had a "down" year compared only to his own previous year. You shouldnt say that a player of 9 years is in regression based of one down year stat wise if his actual skill didnt diminish. No one would argue that Melo's skill regressed last year so it's safe to say that he just had a ''down" year.

For instance, Kobe is having his best season so far in atleast 5 years across the board but not one person would say he's showing "Progress". They just say he's having a " good" year. It works both ways

I was honestly not thinking of it that way but no offense, I dont feel the need to argue semantics. Call it what you wanna call it, he had a down year and thus his rankings effected that. You dont get extra credit for sucking and you certainly do move up for performing.

BULLSFAN0810
12-15-2012, 02:32 PM
Players figure it out at different points.

I think Lebron figured it out in the last couple years. I see Carmelo going through it now, he obviously wont be as good as Lebron will be.

But I've said I think he has the natural ability to be the third best player in basketball, but its all about figuring it out and putting it all together.

Kidd is helping an immense amount.


how do u see a person with kobe like scoring ability the second best... he does things Durant CANT do , and he does alot of thing james is marginal at waaaaaay better. its team and focus

BULLSFAN0810
12-15-2012, 02:36 PM
He's always been this good im wondering if you guys watch basketball before criticizing


NO they watch the highlights...they see dunks and oops.. they read numbers. as far as watching... im sure they dont. Melo been this good . Sometimes franchises has alot to do with it . Good franchises help mature players, bda franchises fall victim to immature players. bad team mates help immaturity spread , good team mates hold you accountable.

Melo ALWAYS HAS KILLED JAMES HEAD TO HEAD...BUT THOSE WHO DRINK THE KOOL AID SEE IT DIFFRENT

Spimtrap
12-15-2012, 02:47 PM
I always thought highly of Melo as a player.

BklynKnicks3
12-15-2012, 03:25 PM
Has been a top 5 player for over 5 years people who don't know ball judge him by playoff failures not really knowing who he lost to and what's been around him now he has a solid team but still not the talent lebron or kd have around them

bucketss
12-15-2012, 03:48 PM
Has been a top 5 player for over 5 years people who don't know ball judge him by playoff failures not really knowing who he lost to and what's been around him now he has a solid team but still not the talent lebron or kd have around them

lack of talent is an excuse for him to play horrible defense? lol homers these days

BklynKnicks3
12-15-2012, 03:50 PM
He never was bad on defense was avg at times from from homer said same thing when he was a nugget look back in my history before u talk

Ebbs
12-15-2012, 03:52 PM
Why would facts irk you? He did regress. I know they werent without reason but we should strike to rank players based on what they are proving.

It wasn't true regression though. Not being able to find your rhythym in a constantly changing environent is not the same as regressing in skill.

bucketss
12-15-2012, 03:58 PM
He never was bad on defense was avg at times from from homer said same thing when he was a nugget look back in my history before u talk

not including this year and the year he went to the wcf his team was significantly better defensively with him off the court even george carl noticed this. you're a melophile than either way you're biased.

elledaddy
12-15-2012, 04:02 PM
I was honestly not thinking of it that way but no offense, I dont feel the need to argue semantics. Call it what you wanna call it, he had a down year and thus his rankings effected that. You dont get extra credit for sucking and you certainly do move up for performing.

I dont have any issue the ranking because I know it was based off the previous year. But I also have common sense which some of the ppl on here clearly do not. They are taking the ranking and trying to make an arguement that Melo is the 17th BEST PLAYER in the league as opposed to Melo coming off a season statistically ranked 17th. Based off whatever statistical formula, Melo had the 17th best individual season last year. I get and for the most part agree. But fot those trying to justify Melo as the 17th best player in the NFL is a joke IMO. Just like everyone else, I watch basketball. Not just the Knicks but ALL basketball teams. From the eye test, it's not 16 players better than Melo. Its only 2 players in the entire NBA that I would be willing to trade Melo for and thats LBJ & Durant.

Chronz
12-15-2012, 04:08 PM
I dont have any issue the ranking because I know it was based off the previous year. But I also have common sense which some of the ppl on here clearly do not. They are taking the ranking and trying to make an arguement that Melo is the 17th BEST PLAYER in the league as opposed to Melo coming off a season statistically ranked 17th. Based off whatever statistical formula, Melo had the 17th best individual season last year. I get and for the most part agree. But fot those trying to justify Melo as the 17th best player in the NFL is a joke IMO. Just like everyone else, I watch basketball. Not just the Knicks but ALL basketball teams. From the eye test, it's not 16 players better than Melo. Its only 2 players in the entire NBA that I would be willing to trade Melo for and thats LBJ & Durant.
Trust me, if it was just based on stats he would have fallen alot more than wherever he was ranked.

Chronz
12-15-2012, 04:09 PM
It wasn't true regression though. Not being able to find your rhythym in a constantly changing environent is not the same as regressing in skill.
Got ya

elledaddy
12-15-2012, 04:15 PM
Trust me, if it was just based on stats he would have fallen alot more than wherever he was ranked.





Ok just so I can get an idea of who Im debating with, where do YOU have Melo ranked as a player in the NBA?. Not based off of advanced stats or any particular year. If I asked you to name YOUR top 50 players in the NBA, where would Melo rank?

Chronz
12-15-2012, 04:20 PM
Ok just so I can get an idea of who Im debating with, where do YOU have Melo ranked as a player in the NBA?. Not based off of advanced stats or any particular year. If I asked you to name YOUR top 50 players in the NBA, where would Melo rank?

Im not sure what we are debating. Wherever I rank Melo it will be based on what hes shown me over his recent career and where I think he is at now and if I think hes still the same playoff performer.

Like I would still have KG/Duncan ahead of Melo, not so much as a regular season performer but as someone I want on my team come playoff time.

elledaddy
12-15-2012, 04:41 PM
Im not sure what we are debating. Wherever I rank Melo it will be based on what hes shown me over his recent career and where I think he is at now and if I think hes still the same playoff performer.

Like I would still have KG/Duncan ahead of Melo, not so much as a regular season performer but as someone I want on my team come playoff time.



Yeah you right, we werent debating. Kool chatting with ya homie

Evolution23
12-15-2012, 05:22 PM
Melo has a legit team around him now, which is allowing him to improve his game. Last two years he never really had great pass first point guards (Billups is good but he is still considered a scorer first and a average passer). The Denver teams for the most part of his career, were always missing a few pieces to be considered real contenders. Denver was missing a defensive minded center and other go to options on offense. Now in New York, he finally has a good balanced team with young and veteran players who know their role. I can't say enough about players like Jason Kidd, Chandler, Sheed, and Kurt Thomas. These older players have brought over their experience, IQ, and hard-nosed style of basketball back to NY. This is what is allowing Melo to expand his game or should I say make his job easier. It's allowing his efficiency to rise and making him look like a better player this year.

NoahH
12-15-2012, 05:55 PM
What is he EXACTLY doing differently?

dee279
12-15-2012, 06:24 PM
I chose different player but i think it is a little of both. He has always had the all around offensive skillset that he has now, but he is just playing more in control now making his play more efficient. He is taking way better shots and he is finding his way. He always was a really good player offensively, but now he is in control of his ability because he is a much smarter player with smart players around him. Also, their is no PF that can keep up with him, so playing PF has helped him out Also.

dee279
12-15-2012, 06:26 PM
Melo has a legit team around him now, which is allowing him to improve his game. Last two years he never really had great pass first point guards (Billups is good but he is still considered a scorer first and a average passer). The Denver teams for the most part of his career, were always missing a few pieces to be considered real contenders. Denver was missing a defensive minded center and other go to options on offense. Now in New York, he finally has a good balanced team with young and veteran players who know their role. I can't say enough about players like Jason Kidd, Chandler, Sheed, and Kurt Thomas. These older players have brought over their experience, IQ, and hard-nosed style of basketball back to NY. This is what is allowing Melo to expand his game or should I say make his job easier. It's allowing his efficiency to rise and making him look like a better player this year.

Um Marcus Camby? Anyways, i agree with everything else.

JordansBulls
12-16-2012, 10:04 AM
Carmelo has bought into the system. He isn't playing anywhere close to the same one on one ball that he used to play. He is playing more like he did in 2009.

arkanian215
12-16-2012, 11:24 AM
0a

JasonJohnHorn
12-16-2012, 02:23 PM
I've said this before and people jumped down my back about it, but seriously? Melo isn't playing any better than he did in Denver, the only difference is that he's doing it in NY. NY is perhaps the biggest market in the NBA. We saw what happened last season with Jeremy Lin and the NY hype machine. Had lin been posting those numbers for the Bobcats or the Wizards, few people would have taken notice. In NY or LAL thouhg, the media would jump all over it.

David Lee is a great example. He played well for NY, and earned a spot on the All-Star team as a result. This season and last season Lee put up numbers close to what he did in NY, but gets little recognition for it.

Melo on the other hand, because he is among the very best at his position, did get All-Star appearances in Denver, and deservidly so. He missed out on the All-Star game in 09 though, and last season put up numbers that were less impressive than his 09 season and still made the All-Star team? After a rough go playing under 'Antoni, Melo is back to his former self (not better than he was in Denver, but as good), and now he's an MVP candidate. In 05 Melo did not even finish in the top 15 for MVP voting (teammate Marcus Camby finished higher on the MVP voting that did Melo). In 06 the Spurs got two guys in the top 15 for MVP voting, and Shawn Marion, Elton Brand an Chauncey Billups all finsihed higher than Melo. In 07 guys like Boozer and Arenas finished higher in the MVP voting than Melo, though Melo did tie for 15th place (which he shared with Baron Davis). O8 saw Melo go up to 13th place in the MVP voting. 09 he did not place at all. 2010 saw him jump up to 6th palce in MVP voting. 2011 saw him fail to place again while Manu and PArker both got more votes than Melo. And last season of course, saw Melo fail to place again.

In his best statistical seasons he finished 13th in MVP voting (08) and 6th (2010)

This year, while he is putting up numbers comparable to his 2008 and 2010 seasons (whith slightly better percentages), he's sittin near the to of the MVP debate. Right now, NBA.com has Melo ranked nubmber one overall for MVP voting:
http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
But while putting up similar numbers in Denver he was never placed so high in the MVP rankings. And let us be honest, the guys that follow him on the MVP ladder (Durant and LBJ) are both better than Melo.


If Durant was doing what he is doing in OKC in LA or NY, he would easily be on top of the MVP ladder. I mean, Durnat has better percentages, if getting more boards, more assists, more steal and more blocks and Melo gets less than one point a game more than Durant and takes more shots to get essentially the same amount of points as Durant.

LBJ is likewise putting up better rebounding, assists, steals and block number than Melo with a higher FG%.

If Melo was playing as well as he is now in Denver, or Minny, or OKC, he would not be getting the kind of love he is getting.

That's not to say that Melo doesn't deserve to be in the MVP dicsussion, he does, but I think we all know that Durant and LBJ are both better players than Melo.

Obviously the league is not entirely biased. LBJ won MVPS in Cleveland after all, but sometimes how you are percieved by others depends as much on where you play and how well you play. Let's be honest, if Drexler had played his career in NY or LA instead of Portland and Houston, people would remember him as perhaps the second or third greatest shooting guard of all time. He still ranks in most people's top ten, or top five even, but he doesn't get as much love as he would had he played in a big market, despite the fact that he got to the NBA finals three times.

knicksfan42
12-16-2012, 02:49 PM
I've said this before and people jumped down my back about it, but seriously? Melo isn't playing any better than he did in Denver, the only difference is that he's doing it in NY.





People jumped on your back, because are just flat out wrong. You literally have no basis for your argument. None.


Melo's numbers are better across the board. Significantly better in fact.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html


TS% .592 vs TS% .532

PER 26.1 vs 19

Winshares (a cumulative stats meaning they increase with the more games a player plays. Lebron has 4.3 W right now, but will likely have at least 3 times that amount by the end of the season)

3.1 ws (1/4 of season played) vs 5 ws (full season) Melo

WS/48 .206 vs .105


The Knicks are on pace for a better record too.

Oh and his defense has greatly improved.

JasonJohnHorn
12-16-2012, 03:28 PM
People jumped on your back, because are just flat out wrong. You literally have no basis for your argument. None.


Melo's numbers are better across the board. Significantly better in fact.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html


TS% .592 vs TS% .532

PER 26.1 vs 19

Winshares (a cumulative stats meaning they increase with the more games a player plays. Lebron has 4.3 W right now, but will likely have at least 3 times that amount by the end of the season)

3.1 ws (1/4 of season played) vs 5 ws (full season) Melo

WS/48 .206 vs .105


The Knicks are on pace for a better record too.

Oh and his defense has greatly improved.

2008

25.4 points 7.3 rebonds 3.3 assists 1.3 steals 0.5 blocks .493 FG% .354 3pt% .786 ft%

2010
28.2 points, 6.6 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.3 steals. 0.4 blocks .458FG% .316 3pt% .830 FT%

2012
27.9 points 6.4 rebounds 2.0 assists 0.9 steal 0.6 blocks .473FG% 455 3pt% 808FT%

So he's scoring morethat in 2008 and shooting a little better from 3pt land. He's also taking more shots than he was that season and not sharing the ball with Iverson (who took a lot of shots). He shot a better FG% in 08, and got more rebounds, more assists and more steals. In 2010 he got pretty much as many blocks and rebounds, and more steals and more assists.

His 2012 season so far has seen him return to a FG% he's gotten in the past (though not as high as his 2008 season) and shoot his best percentage from the 3pt line. With no legit second option his scoring is up slightly, but in Denver he had to share the ball with Iverson for several seasons, much as Wade and Bosh saw their scoring averages dive because LBJ was on the team. It doesn't mean they were better without James, it means they get less shots. Likewise, Melo shoulders the bulk of NY's scoring load right now because there is not a legit second option (when Amare returns and is worked back into the offence, I expect Melo's average to come down). He is not BETTER than he was in Denver, just taking more shots. Had Iverson never showed up in Denver I do not doubt that Melo would have been scoring around 30 a game those seasons.

Statistically, there is not a big difference between this season and his 2008 and 2010 years, outside of teh 3pt%. He passed the ball more in the past, and was a better rebounder in the past, so to say that this seasons numbers are significantly better? It's simply not true. They are better in some respects, and not as good in others. Defence? It's hard to keep track of statistically. He got more steals in the past than he is getting this season, but perhaps his one-on-one coverage is better. As for win shares, that is a stat that while telling in some instances, can be impacted by who you have around you. I'm not saying that this current NY roster isn't better than the Denver rosters which Melo played with, I'm just saying that Melo is playing at a level that is comparable to the level he played at while in Denver.

In Denver he posted higher rebounding numbers than he is this season FIVE times. His current assists per average is the LOWEST of his career. His current steals per average is also the lowest of his career. He has posted better FG% three times in Denver. And his current FT% is .002 higher than his career average... not a noticible difference.

Significantly better? Really? He has only twice in his career taken more shots per game than he is currently taking, so naturally his scoring average will be a little higher.

I don't see Melo as being a significantly better player than he was in Denver. He was a better rebounder and better passer in Denver and scored nearly as much.

What makes this season so much better than his 2008 and 2010 seasons?

That said, looking at the numbers, I am not the only one of this opinion. Teh vote is nearly 50/50, with close to half the people believing that Melo is as good and simply getting more hype than he did in Denver.

knicksfan42
12-16-2012, 04:05 PM
2008

25.4 points 7.3 rebonds 3.3 assists 1.3 steals 0.5 blocks .493 FG% .354 3pt% .786 ft%

2010
28.2 points, 6.6 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.3 steals. 0.4 blocks .458FG% .316 3pt% .830 FT%

2012
27.9 points 6.4 rebounds 2.0 assists 0.9 steal 0.6 blocks .473FG% 455 3pt% 808FT%

So he's scoring morethat in 2008 and shooting a little better from 3pt land. He's also taking more shots than he was that season and not sharing the ball with Iverson (who took a lot of shots). He shot a better FG% in 08, and got more rebounds, more assists and more steals. In 2010 he got pretty much as many blocks and rebounds, and more steals and more assists.

His 2012 season so far has seen him return to a FG% he's gotten in the past (though not as high as his 2008 season) and shoot his best percentage from the 3pt line. With no legit second option his scoring is up slightly, but in Denver he had to share the ball with Iverson for several seasons, much as Wade and Bosh saw their scoring averages dive because LBJ was on the team. It doesn't mean they were better without James, it means they get less shots. Likewise, Melo shoulders the bulk of NY's scoring load right now because there is not a legit second option (when Amare returns and is worked back into the offence, I expect Melo's average to come down). He is not BETTER than he was in Denver, just taking more shots. Had Iverson never showed up in Denver I do not doubt that Melo would have been scoring around 30 a game those seasons.

Statistically, there is not a big difference between this season and his 2008 and 2010 years, outside of teh 3pt%. He passed the ball more in the past, and was a better rebounder in the past, so to say that this seasons numbers are significantly better? It's simply not true. They are better in some respects, and not as good in others. Defence? It's hard to keep track of statistically. He got more steals in the past than he is getting this season, but perhaps his one-on-one coverage is better. As for win shares, that is a stat that while telling in some instances, can be impacted by who you have around you. I'm not saying that this current NY roster isn't better than the Denver rosters which Melo played with, I'm just saying that Melo is playing at a level that is comparable to the level he played at while in Denver.

In Denver he posted higher rebounding numbers than he is this season FIVE times. His current assists per average is the LOWEST of his career. His current steals per average is also the lowest of his career. He has posted better FG% three times in Denver. And his current FT% is .002 higher than his career average... not a noticible difference.

Significantly better? Really? He has only twice in his career taken more shots per game than he is currently taking, so naturally his scoring average will be a little higher.

I don't see Melo as being a significantly better player than he was in Denver. He was a better rebounder and better passer in Denver and scored nearly as much.

What makes this season so much better than his 2008 and 2010 seasons?

That said, looking at the numbers, I am not the only one of this opinion. Teh vote is nearly 50/50, with close to half the people believing that Melo is as good and simply getting more hype than he did in Denver.



I don't know why you are even attempting to debate basic stats. I'm not dealing with your strawmen.



His PER, TS% (an overall measurement of scoring efficiency), and WS/48 are all significantly better than in 2009.


As for defense he is obviously better just based on watching him.

Win shares are telling in most instances including this one.


Now defensive rating is impacted by the roster you have around you. When arguing this you can bring up a slew of players that are known to be awful defensive players that have great defensive ratings (e.g. Carlos Boozer).

The point being that you can't just say "defensive rating is a joke" you have to prove it is, by providing examples. Same goes for win shares.

JasonJohnHorn
12-16-2012, 06:19 PM
I don't know why you are even attempting to debate basic stats. I'm not dealing with your strawmen.



His PER, TS% (an overall measurement of scoring efficiency), and WS/48 are all significantly better than in 2009.

It's not straw man arguement. And I'm not even talking about his 2009 season.

He's not passing the ball as well, and he's not rebounding the ball as well as he has in the past. His 3pt% is up, and his FG% is above his career average, but he has posted better FG% in the past.

Is this his best season so far? Perhaps. I'm not saying it is not. What I am saying is that the 2008 season and the 2010 seasons were also among his best seasons and that he has displayed in the past that he is capable of this current level of play. What you are saying is that he is significantly better than he has been in the past and I am saying that is not true. He has performed at this level before and in several respect has done better than he is currently doing. You dismiss the stats I provide, then start talking about a season (2009) that I hadn't even mentioned.

I do not deny that his TS% is higher than in seasons past, but that said, it is partly weighted by the fact that his 3pt% is up significantly than it was in seasons past. Yes. He is shooting the 3ball better than ever. Will he keep this up all season? Maybe. But at the end of the day there are other aspects of his game that he is not performning at as well (rebounding and passing).

I'm not ignoring the stats you provided, but you are ignoring the ones I have provided. I have no problem with advance stats, but let us be honest, you are not going to get as many winshares if you are on a team that doesn't win. The Knicks are on pace right now to win more games than any Denver team Carmelo played for, so he will be in a position to have a higher winshare than he has in the past.

Is Melo doing more with less? It depends on how you rank the supporting cast that Durant and Melo has. I wouldn't argue with anybody who suggested that Melo doesn't have as many stars to work with in NY as Durant and Melo has (Westbrook, Bosh, Wade and perhaps Martin are better than any individual player that Melo has played with this season with Amare having not played), so I wuoldn't argue that Melo isn't deserving of the MVP. But I stand by the fact that Melo HAS played at this level of play in the past and that Durant and LBJ are both better individual players than is Melo, and that in Denver Melo didn't get the recognition for playing at the level that he is now getting for playing in NY.

If Melo was putting up the same numbers he is now in Denver, NBA.com wouldn't have him ranked as number 1 on the MVP ladder.

To pretend like Melo isn't get more recognition because he is playing in NY is simply being naive.

And for you to ignore the fact that he has handed out more assists and gotten more steals and rebounds in the past, and referring to that as a 'strawman' arguement is just ignorant.

FACT: Melo has had better rebounding numbers.
FACT: Melo has posted better assists numbers.
FACT: Melo has had higher FG%
FACT: Melo has gotten more steals.


Melo is having a great season. But he HAS played at this level in the past. The only difference is that he has done it alongside Iverson and hasn't gotten as many shots. The increased 3pt% means he's shooting the ball better than he has in the past, but the decreased rebounds and assists, as well as steals, suggest that there are other elements of the game which he is not doing as well in the past.

Significantly better? I don't see it. I see he is playing as well as he has in the past and that the team he is on is winning. Woodson is doing a great job on the bench this year (much better than 'Antoni has done, and perhaps better than Karl did in Denver).

Melo is shooting the 3-ball better than he has in the past. His team is winning more. Yes, and yes. That does not mean that he is significantly better, it just means two things. That his team is winning more and that he is shooting the 3ball better.

Sssmush
12-16-2012, 06:23 PM
A year or two ago I thought that Carmelo for Bynum straight up was a good deal, but most of my friends didn't see it that way at all.

Everyone said Bynum was "untouchable" except for Dwight.

Sssmush
12-16-2012, 06:28 PM
I've said this before and people jumped down my back about it, but seriously? Melo isn't playing any better than he did in Denver, the only difference is that he's doing it in NY. NY is perhaps the biggest market in the NBA. We saw what happened last season with Jeremy Lin and the NY hype machine. Had lin been posting those numbers for the Bobcats or the Wizards, few people would have taken notice. In NY or LAL thouhg, the media would jump all over it.

David Lee is a great example. He played well for NY, and earned a spot on the All-Star team as a result. This season and last season Lee put up numbers close to what he did in NY, but gets little recognition for it.

Melo on the other hand, because he is among the very best at his position, did get All-Star appearances in Denver, and deservidly so. He missed out on the All-Star game in 09 though, and last season put up numbers that were less impressive than his 09 season and still made the All-Star team? After a rough go playing under 'Antoni, Melo is back to his former self (not better than he was in Denver, but as good), and now he's an MVP candidate. In 05 Melo did not even finish in the top 15 for MVP voting (teammate Marcus Camby finished higher on the MVP voting that did Melo). In 06 the Spurs got two guys in the top 15 for MVP voting, and Shawn Marion, Elton Brand an Chauncey Billups all finsihed higher than Melo. In 07 guys like Boozer and Arenas finished higher in the MVP voting than Melo, though Melo did tie for 15th place (which he shared with Baron Davis). O8 saw Melo go up to 13th place in the MVP voting. 09 he did not place at all. 2010 saw him jump up to 6th palce in MVP voting. 2011 saw him fail to place again while Manu and PArker both got more votes than Melo. And last season of course, saw Melo fail to place again.

In his best statistical seasons he finished 13th in MVP voting (08) and 6th (2010)

This year, while he is putting up numbers comparable to his 2008 and 2010 seasons (whith slightly better percentages), he's sittin near the to of the MVP debate. Right now, NBA.com has Melo ranked nubmber one overall for MVP voting:
http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
But while putting up similar numbers in Denver he was never placed so high in the MVP rankings. And let us be honest, the guys that follow him on the MVP ladder (Durant and LBJ) are both better than Melo.


If Durant was doing what he is doing in OKC in LA or NY, he would easily be on top of the MVP ladder. I mean, Durnat has better percentages, if getting more boards, more assists, more steal and more blocks and Melo gets less than one point a game more than Durant and takes more shots to get essentially the same amount of points as Durant.

LBJ is likewise putting up better rebounding, assists, steals and block number than Melo with a higher FG%.

If Melo was playing as well as he is now in Denver, or Minny, or OKC, he would not be getting the kind of love he is getting.

That's not to say that Melo doesn't deserve to be in the MVP dicsussion, he does, but I think we all know that Durant and LBJ are both better players than Melo.

Obviously the league is not entirely biased. LBJ won MVPS in Cleveland after all, but sometimes how you are percieved by others depends as much on where you play and how well you play. Let's be honest, if Drexler had played his career in NY or LA instead of Portland and Houston, people would remember him as perhaps the second or third greatest shooting guard of all time. He still ranks in most people's top ten, or top five even, but he doesn't get as much love as he would had he played in a big market, despite the fact that he got to the NBA finals three times.

I do feel that Carmelo has to do something extra or more before he is considered a legit superstar in the league.

Like, putting him in the same category as Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Wade etc still seems very awkward. Like its prearranged or something that he'll be on the All Star team (like last year), and then when he actually has a good year (or a good 20 games or whatever) and leads the league in scoring than suddenly it's like "oh wow, Melo for MVP, possibly the greatest ever" or whatever, but to me it seems like a very shallow, superficial kind of "greatness" at this point.

KnicksorBust
12-16-2012, 06:44 PM
I've said this before and people jumped down my back about it, but seriously? Melo isn't playing any better than he did in Denver, the only difference is that he's doing it in NY. NY is perhaps the biggest market in the NBA. We saw what happened last season with Jeremy Lin and the NY hype machine. Had lin been posting those numbers for the Bobcats or the Wizards, few people would have taken notice. In NY or LAL thouhg, the media would jump all over it.

David Lee is a great example. He played well for NY, and earned a spot on the All-Star team as a result. This season and last season Lee put up numbers close to what he did in NY, but gets little recognition for it.

Melo on the other hand, because he is among the very best at his position, did get All-Star appearances in Denver, and deservidly so. He missed out on the All-Star game in 09 though, and last season put up numbers that were less impressive than his 09 season and still made the All-Star team? After a rough go playing under 'Antoni, Melo is back to his former self (not better than he was in Denver, but as good), and now he's an MVP candidate. In 05 Melo did not even finish in the top 15 for MVP voting (teammate Marcus Camby finished higher on the MVP voting that did Melo). In 06 the Spurs got two guys in the top 15 for MVP voting, and Shawn Marion, Elton Brand an Chauncey Billups all finsihed higher than Melo. In 07 guys like Boozer and Arenas finished higher in the MVP voting than Melo, though Melo did tie for 15th place (which he shared with Baron Davis). O8 saw Melo go up to 13th place in the MVP voting. 09 he did not place at all. 2010 saw him jump up to 6th palce in MVP voting. 2011 saw him fail to place again while Manu and PArker both got more votes than Melo. And last season of course, saw Melo fail to place again.

In his best statistical seasons he finished 13th in MVP voting (08) and 6th (2010)

This year, while he is putting up numbers comparable to his 2008 and 2010 seasons (whith slightly better percentages), he's sittin near the to of the MVP debate. Right now, NBA.com has Melo ranked nubmber one overall for MVP voting:
http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
But while putting up similar numbers in Denver he was never placed so high in the MVP rankings. And let us be honest, the guys that follow him on the MVP ladder (Durant and LBJ) are both better than Melo.


If Durant was doing what he is doing in OKC in LA or NY, he would easily be on top of the MVP ladder. I mean, Durnat has better percentages, if getting more boards, more assists, more steal and more blocks and Melo gets less than one point a game more than Durant and takes more shots to get essentially the same amount of points as Durant.

LBJ is likewise putting up better rebounding, assists, steals and block number than Melo with a higher FG%.

If Melo was playing as well as he is now in Denver, or Minny, or OKC, he would not be getting the kind of love he is getting.

That's not to say that Melo doesn't deserve to be in the MVP dicsussion, he does, but I think we all know that Durant and LBJ are both better players than Melo.

Obviously the league is not entirely biased. LBJ won MVPS in Cleveland after all, but sometimes how you are percieved by others depends as much on where you play and how well you play. Let's be honest, if Drexler had played his career in NY or LA instead of Portland and Houston, people would remember him as perhaps the second or third greatest shooting guard of all time. He still ranks in most people's top ten, or top five even, but he doesn't get as much love as he would had he played in a big market, despite the fact that he got to the NBA finals three times.

I completely disagree. This year's Melo is significant better than any version of Denver Melo.

IndyRealist
12-16-2012, 06:56 PM
What is he EXACTLY doing differently?

Other than hitting 3's at an unsustainable rate? Supposedly he's playing defense and being a team player (though his assists are significantly down, per minute). I can't say for certain because I haven't watched a whole lot of Knicks ball this year, but I figured the question needed answering.

knicksfan42
12-16-2012, 07:47 PM
It's not straw man arguement. And I'm not even talking about his 2009 season.

He's not passing the ball as well, and he's not rebounding the ball as well as he has in the past. His 3pt% is up, and his FG% is above his career average, but he has posted better FG% in the past.


There is a difference between "not passing the ball as well" and not getting as many assists. Melo may not be getting as many assists but his passing has been great. In fact a huge reason for our success is our teams ball movement, largely thanks to Kidd, Felton, and Prigioni, but also thanks to Melo's improved trust in his teammates (better passing). So because he averages 2 assists vs 3 assists does not mean he is now a worse passer.



Is this his best season so far? Perhaps. I'm not saying it is not. What I am saying is that the 2008 season and the 2010 seasons were also among his best seasons and that he has displayed in the past that he is capable of this current level of play. What you are saying is that he is significantly better than he has been in the past and I am saying that is not true. He has performed at this level before and in several respect has done better than he is currently doing. You dismiss the stats I provide, then start talking about a season (2009) that I hadn't even mentioned. I do not deny that his TS% is higher than in seasons past, but that said, it is partyl weighted by the fact that his 3pt% is up significantly than it was in seasons past. Yes. He is shooting the 3ball better than ever. Will he keep this up all season? Maybe. But at the end of the day there are other aspects of his game that he is not performning at as well (rebounding and passing).




I don't know why but I thought I saw you mention 09 specifically a bunch of times. Maybe a post edit. I dismiss archaic stats like FG% because they are inferior to stats like TS% which truly measure a players efficiency. Shooting 33% from 3 Point range is equivalent to shooting 50% from the field. FG% does not measure a players true efficiency as a scorer because it does not take 3 pointers and fts into consideration. Melo's scoring efficiency is significantly higher than it was before period. Now is it because of his greatly improved 3 point shooting? Yep, and........
His PER is also at 26, significantly higher than his career average of 20 and previous career high of 22.

As for rebounding, I'll give you he has been rebounding worse than he has rebounded in the past. His TRB% is 10.4% this season, lower than his high of 11.8% but higher than his career average of 10%. H



I'm not ignoring the stats you provided, but you are ignoring the ones I have provided. I have no problem with advance stats, but let us be honest, you are not going to get as many winshares if you are on a team that doesn't win. The Knicks are on pace right now to win more games than any Denver team Carmelo played for, so he will be in a position to have a higher winshare than he has in the past.

Is Melo doing more with less? It depends on how you rank the supporting cast that Durant and Melo has. I wouldn't argue with anybody who suggested that Melo doesn't have as many starts to work with in NY as Durant and Melo has (Westbrook, Bosh, Wade and perhaps Martin are better than any individual player that Melo has played with this season with Amare having not played), so I wuoldn't argue that Melo isn't deserving of the MVP. But I stand by the fact that Melo HAS played at this level of play in the past and that Durant and LBJ are both better individual players than is Melo, and that in Denver Melo didn't get the recognition for playing at the level that he is now getting for playing in NY.

Winshares determine how much the individual player contribute towards the wins the team has. More wins might mean more winshares, but this is largely as a product of the players contribution to those wins. You could look at Melo's career winshares alone and see that more wins doesn't equal more win shares. The most winshares Melo had for a season was 9.4. Guess which season that was? The 05-06 season, the Nuggets won 44 games. The reason Melo has more winshares than he's ever had in the past is because he's contributed more to the teams wins than he has in the past, because he is playing significantly better than he has in the past.


As for Durant and LBJ, I haven't seen anyone argue Melo is better than them. The fact is they have have significantly more help than Melo does now. I'd love to here people ******** on the Knicks prior to the start of the season argue against this point in retrospect now. The MVP is not always given to the best player.


If Melo was putting up the same numbers he is now in Denver, NBA.com wouldn't have him ranked as number 1 on the MVP ladder.

To pretend like Melo isn't get more recognition because he is playing in NY is simply being naive.

And for you to ignore the fact that he has handed out more assists and gotten more steals and rebounds in the past, and referring to that as a 'strawman' arguement is just ignorant.

FACT: Melo has had better rebounding numbers.
FACT: Melo has posted better assists numbers.
FACT: Melo has had higher FG%
FACT: Melo has gotten more steals.


Melo is having a great season. But he HAS played at this level in the past. The only difference is that he has done it alongside Iverson and hasn't gotten as many shots. The increased 3pt% means he's shooting the ball better than he has in the past, but the decreased rebounds and assists, as well as steals, suggest that there are other elements of the game which he is not doing as well in the past.

Significantly better? I don't see it. I see he is playing as well as he has in the past and that the team he is on is winning. Woodson is doing a great job on the bench this year (much better than 'Antoni has done, and perhaps better than Karl did in Denver).


They might not have him as number 1 if only because the Nuggets weren't **** for a decade prior, but otherwise number #1 team in the conference, huge turnaround over previous seasons, less help than the rival candidates. No I can see him at number 1 with Denver. In fact I'm almost certain he's been number 1 in at least 1 MVP ladder ranking in Denver.

Iverson has nothing to do with anything, getting more or less shots has nothing to do with anything. I never talked about his PPG.

The significantly higher WS, WS/48, TS%, and PER show that Melo has been playing much better this season than he has in the past. That and the wins the Knicks currently have.

Melo has had better rebounding numbers, ok.

Assists, he's averaging 2 APG as opposed to his 3 APG career average. Says nothing about the guys passing.

As for FG%, I've said FG% is archaic and doesn't measure a players true efficiency, because it doesn't. TS% is simply superior. Yet you ignore it and use FG%. Here's an analogy: Lets say Field Goals are 5 dollar bills, Free throws are 1 dollar bills, and 3 Pointer are 10 dollars bills. Field Goal% measures the number of 5 dollars bills you have, free throw% measures the number of 1 dollar bills you have, and 3 Point% measures the number of 10 dollar bills you have. TS% is a measurement of the total amount of money you have, 1 dollars bills + 5 dollar bills + 10 dollar bills. When you use FG% you are ignoring the number of 1 dollar bills and 10 dollar bills a person has. TS%=Total measure of a players scoring efficiency, FG% measure of a single facet of a players scoring. You bringing up FG% is ridiculous.


As for steals, Melo averages .9 steals a game this season, as opposed to 1.1 for his career. What does that say about his defense? Nothing. Steals and blocks in general don't say much about a player defense. Deng averages less steals career wise than Melo and has the same average as Melo this year. Amare has been a great shot blocker his entire career.

nystandup
12-16-2012, 08:09 PM
When Melo is getting double teamed in the post he is not getting credited with an assist but he is getting the "hockey assist" by passing it out of the double team , thus the ball being swung around the perimeter to the open man.

Oefarmy2005
12-17-2012, 10:39 AM
Same player, but maybe more mature. He has put up some sick numbers in Denver.

LongIslandIcedZ
12-17-2012, 11:14 AM
Same ability, but he has complete trust in his teammates.

That's so important for players with ego's. He's buying into the team aspect of the game. He doesnt need to do everything himself.

JordansBulls
12-18-2012, 05:07 PM
I hope Melo can start winning some series though this year. He has only won 2 in his career thus far and all in one season. From this thread we had he had the worst winning % of a star player.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=717569&page=5&highlight=playoff+matchups+you+wanted+to+see