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View Full Version : Grizzlies Hire John Hollinger to a FO Position



ManRam
12-13-2012, 07:11 PM
@CAGrizBlog
BREAKING: Griz have hired ESPN's John Hollinger to front-office position, per sources. CA story coming

We'll see if it's legit. It's picking up steam...

The revolution is happening. First Pruiti, now Hollinger.

shep33
12-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Interesting. The Billy Beane of the NBA?

TeamSeattle
12-13-2012, 07:13 PM
Oh thats cool, good job 4 him.

waveycrockett
12-13-2012, 07:15 PM
Bill Simmons is pissed

Ebbs
12-13-2012, 07:15 PM
YA I like it.

jmoney85
12-13-2012, 07:16 PM
whos going to do the hollinger rankings/ratings? lol

ManRam
12-13-2012, 07:18 PM
whos going to do the hollinger rankings/ratings? lol

Well, it's a set formula...so a computer?

GunFactor187
12-13-2012, 07:18 PM
The NBA part of ESPN.com will now become a wasteland, lol. But good for Hollinger though, wished my Pistons jumped on hiring him, he'll do wonders for the Griz.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-13-2012, 07:18 PM
whos going to do the hollinger rankings/ratings? lol

Who cares !Its trash

jmoney85
12-13-2012, 07:19 PM
Well, it's a set formula...so a computer?

yea but will ESPN still host it?... I liked it because it was updated regularly unlike hoopdata

ManRam
12-13-2012, 07:21 PM
yea but will ESPN still host it?... I liked it because it was updated regularly unlike hoopdata

No idea. No idea what legal stuff goes on there. Hollinger has done a lot of stuff for ESPN that have his name on it or were his brainchildren. I'm sure it will be sorted out.


I GUARANTEE you that he steals the Trade Machine though, hoards it for himself ;)

ManRam
12-13-2012, 07:21 PM
Legit.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8745158/espn-columnist-john-hollinger-join-memphis-grizzlies-front-office


John Hollinger, a fixture of ESPN.com's coverage of the NBA for the past seven seasons and one of the leaders in basketball's rising statistical analysis movement over the past decade, is leaving his role as a columnist to join the front office of the Memphis Grizzlies.

Best known for hatching the formula behind every player's Player Efficiency Ranking (PER) -- which attempts to quantify player performance through the use of an all-in-one rating -- Hollinger will begin work as a senior executive in the Grizzlies' basketball department next week.

"It's incredibly difficult to leave ESPN, but the chance to work for an NBA team and the Grizzlies' new ownership was an irresistible opportunity," Hollinger said Thursday.

Hollinger was recruited to the Grizzlies by new controlling owner Robert Pera and CEO/managing partner Jason Levien, who have made upgrading Memphis' analytics department one of their front-office priorities.

The Grizzlies on Thursday declined comment.

Hollinger, 41, founded the website "Alleyoop" in 1996 to launch his online career as a basketball sabermetrician and authored a series of books originally known as the "Pro Basketball Prospectus" and later titled "Pro Basketball Forecast."

He went on to work for The Oregonian newspaper's online site (OregonLive.com) and served as the NBA editor of Sports Illustrated's online site (SI.com) before joining ESPN.com in February 2005.

VRP723
12-13-2012, 07:27 PM
Good for this guy, and for the NBA. Smart people are better than not smart people, the more sports that figure that out the better!

Bishnoff
12-13-2012, 07:27 PM
Good move by the Grizz.

jmoney85
12-13-2012, 07:27 PM
somewhere nickydymez is baffled

Chronz
12-13-2012, 07:27 PM
Right place, right time, right mind. Story of Hollingers career.

abe_froman
12-13-2012, 07:31 PM
Interesting. The Billy Beane of the NBA?

more like when bill james joined the red sox

nickdymez
12-13-2012, 07:33 PM
somewhere nickydymez is baffled

This..

Well lets see if this works and people outside of PSD start giving a crap about advanced stats. Grizzlies better win the chip now!

nickdymez
12-13-2012, 07:34 PM
lmfao. PSD LOVES Hollinger..

ManRam
12-13-2012, 07:34 PM
Well lets see if this works and people outside of PSD start giving a crap about advanced stats. Grizzlies better win the chip now!

What an ignorant post :laugh:

Twins Fanatic
12-13-2012, 07:36 PM
Good for Memphis, sucks for ESPN insiders.

heyman321
12-13-2012, 07:37 PM
That's good news for Chronz, he can now assume Hollinger's vacated spot at ESPN.

jmoney85
12-13-2012, 07:37 PM
people who shun advanced stats are simple minded

heyman321
12-13-2012, 07:39 PM
Should I cancel my subscription to ESPN insider now then? There's technically nothing good to read now.

Twins Fanatic
12-13-2012, 07:41 PM
Should I cancel my subscription to ESPN insider now then? There's technically nothing good to read now.
Agreed

sixer04fan
12-13-2012, 07:42 PM
Pretty much the only NBA guy left from ESPN who I had respect for. I wish him the best at his new job

Baller1
12-13-2012, 07:43 PM
Great move by Memphis.

lajoie
12-13-2012, 07:56 PM
When I hear leaks and rumors about the Grizzlies, i'm going to assume that its from him

Chronz
12-13-2012, 07:58 PM
lmfao. PSD LOVES Hollinger..

based on what exactly?

effen5
12-13-2012, 08:21 PM
In before Knicks hire Chris Broussard

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 08:22 PM
he was one of the last reasons I went to espn for articles....

MrfadeawayJB
12-13-2012, 08:45 PM
This can't be a bad move can it??? I love the pickup

nickdymez
12-13-2012, 08:46 PM
What an ignorant post :laugh:

Oh yea?

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 08:48 PM
This..

Well lets see if this works and people outside of PSD start giving a crap about advanced stats. Grizzlies better win the chip now!

are you that blind that you don't think almost every NBA team doesn't use advanced stats? You think its just this site? Wow

Knicks21
12-13-2012, 08:56 PM
Why do they need to hire they guy? They can just check his stats on the internet like the rest of the teams. I really dont see the point in this.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 08:57 PM
Why do they need to hire they guy? They can just check his stats on the internet like the rest of the teams. I really dont see the point in this.

because he can develop further player/team evaluations for them...

Vinny642
12-13-2012, 08:59 PM
Lol, oh damn wow

Ebbs
12-13-2012, 09:00 PM
This..

Well lets see if this works and people outside of PSD start giving a crap about advanced stats. Grizzlies better win the chip now!

ahahahaha Yea I heard Chronz was the original creator of advanced stats

lakers4sho
12-13-2012, 09:00 PM
wow, good for him.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 09:01 PM
ahahahaha Yea I heard Chronz was the original creator of advanced stats

It was actually me. I am a known Laker/Melo hater, so I developed through thousands of trials, a statistical way to show they may not in fact be as awesome as some thought...

SteveNash
12-13-2012, 09:02 PM
Never was a fan of Hollinger, but he seemed to be one of the few hard working employees at ESPN.

Just too bad the guy who was in love with Denver's roster the past 2 years will now ruin my Grizzlies.

Ebbs
12-13-2012, 09:02 PM
It was actually me. I am a known Laker/Melo hater, so I developed through thousands of trials, a statistical way to show they may not in fact be as awesome as some thought...

:laugh: I wonder when you will get your offer as a front office executive.

nickdymez
12-13-2012, 09:04 PM
Let me get this strait. Kobe has been a terrible advanced stat guy over the years, yet he has 5 rings. This year i hear he's putting up decent advanced stats, the lakers are 9-13.. hmmmmm Fire Hollinger

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 09:06 PM
Let me get this strait. Kobe has been a terrible advanced stat guy over the years, yet he has 5 rings. This year i hear he's putting up decent advanced stats, the lakers are 9-13.. hmmmmm Fire Hollinger

Kobe Bryant has been a terrible advanced stats guy over the years? Did you ever sit and wonder that maybe his teammates were also good advances stats guys, hence the 5 rings, while many other great stats guys didn't have that help?

You are very out of touch on how modern day basketball at the pro level works dude. Its more obvious each post you make.

Ebbs
12-13-2012, 09:13 PM
Let me get this strait. Kobe has been a terrible advanced stat guy over the years, yet he has 5 rings. This year i hear he's putting up decent advanced stats, the lakers are 9-13.. hmmmmm Fire Hollinger

The fact you think it's that simple; tells everyone how far away you are from grasping anything to do with "advanced".

Swashcuff
12-13-2012, 09:14 PM
somewhere nickydymez is baffled

Ignorance is worst than any drug ever developed and that guy has a severe overdose. For him to think that advanced metrics are only accepted here on PSD alone speaks volumes of his ignorance.

kozelkid
12-13-2012, 09:15 PM
people who shun advanced stats are simple minded

Na, it just doesn't fit their obvious agenda.

Swashcuff
12-13-2012, 09:17 PM
are you that blind that you don't think almost every NBA team doesn't use advanced stats? You think its just this site? Wow

Yeah its more like every team now. No way the naysayers would reply to your post though. They can't handle the truth rather just live in their ignorance.

kozelkid
12-13-2012, 09:17 PM
Let me get this strait. Kobe has been a terrible advanced stat guy over the years, yet he has 5 rings. This year i hear he's putting up decent advanced stats, the lakers are 9-13.. hmmmmm Fire Hollinger

If you're going to simplyify an argument like this and put words in other people's mouths, then don't debate again. Like ever.

Ebbs
12-13-2012, 09:17 PM
People don't have to "accept" advanced stats. They just have to acknowledge there is value there. IMO. Eyes on evaluation is still valuable. But let's be real how often do you see every player play? I watch a lot of basketball but there is no way me seeing some teams play 5-10 times a season gives me more knowledge of a player than people charting every play of every game regardless of what formula they use,

bholly
12-13-2012, 09:18 PM
Oh, man. I mean, great for Hollinger and the Grizz, but ESPN.com just got way worse. Lame. But cool. But also lame.

FOBolous
12-13-2012, 09:23 PM
hollinger vs daryl morey...who would win?

GunFactor187
12-13-2012, 09:26 PM
hollinger vs daryl morey...who would win?

Nobody, the whole world would explode.

JNA17
12-13-2012, 09:29 PM
Terrible move by Memphis, great move by ESPN. Memphis basically just took ESPN's trash.

ManRam
12-13-2012, 09:40 PM
Let me get this strait. Kobe has been a terrible advanced stat guy over the years, yet he has 5 rings. This year i hear he's putting up decent advanced stats, the lakers are 9-13.. hmmmmm Fire Hollinger

Are you trolling? :laugh2:


I'd LOVE to see the Lakers hire you!

thechom80
12-13-2012, 09:46 PM
So, Bill Simmons still doesn't have an NBA job? Nice.

nickdymez
12-13-2012, 10:11 PM
lmfao@ the advanced stat crew getting upset

Ebbs
12-13-2012, 10:13 PM
Lol it's not a crew it's a reality.

ManRam
12-13-2012, 10:17 PM
lmfao@ the advanced stat crew getting upset

Are you #TeamRINGZ?

nickdymez
12-13-2012, 10:23 PM
Are you #TeamRINGZ?

Yea bro

ManRam
12-13-2012, 10:25 PM
Yea bro

So you believe in randomly throwing players together, with out actually putting intelligent thought into it, in order to build a successful team? I mean, that makes so much more sense than bringing in guys who know more about what good is and what good is not and people who understand analytics better than anyone else in the world. Yup! Totally!

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 10:26 PM
So you believe in randomly throwing players together, with out actually putting intelligent thought into it, in order to build a successful team? I mean, that makes so much more sense than bringing in guys who know more about what good is and what good is not and people who understand analytics better than anyone else in the world. Yup! Totally!

No, he is of the dying breed that thinks their eye test trumps any possible analytical study of a sport.

jmoney85
12-13-2012, 11:21 PM
lol @ nickdymez

el hidalgo
12-13-2012, 11:28 PM
john hollinger's formula is nothing but garbage created to discredit kobe and give credit to lebron. the worlds #1 kobe hater will fail at that position and i will have a toast the day he gets fired.

Guppyfighter
12-13-2012, 11:34 PM
john hollinger's formula is nothing but garbage created to discredit kobe and give credit to lebron. the worlds #1 kobe hater will fail at that position and i will have a toast the day he gets fired.

Advanced stats have always loved Kobe?

dhopisthename
12-13-2012, 11:34 PM
going to miss hollinger :(

jmoney85
12-13-2012, 11:36 PM
john hollinger's formula is nothing but garbage created to discredit kobe and give credit to lebron. the worlds #1 kobe hater will fail at that position and i will have a toast the day he gets fired.

lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

el hidalgo
12-13-2012, 11:38 PM
Advanced stats have always loved Kobe?

kobe has never had a PER over 28. LeBron and Michael have multiple years with their PER being in the 30's. you're telling me there wasn't one season where kobe put up a per above 28? sounds like BS to me. kobe is the 2nd great SG of all time. you may call that a stat, but i call that hate.

Ebbs
12-13-2012, 11:40 PM
kobe has never had a PER over 28. LeBron and Michael have multiple years with their PER being in the 30's. you're telling me there wasn't one season where kobe put up a per above 28? sounds like BS to me. kobe is the 2nd great SG of all time. you may call that a stat, but i call that hate.

How old are you?

mzgrizz
12-13-2012, 11:45 PM
Why do they need to hire they guy? They can just check his stats on the internet like the rest of the teams. I really dont see the point in this.

Because Pera had said he planned to use advanced statistics on the team.........WOW! I must have been working too hard to just now read this!

jmoney85
12-13-2012, 11:45 PM
kobe has never had a PER over 28. LeBron and Michael have multiple years with their PER being in the 30's. you're telling me there wasn't one season where kobe put up a per above 28? sounds like BS to me. kobe is the 2nd great SG of all time. you may call that a stat, but i call that hate.

omg stop lol

:cry:

lol im in tears

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 11:46 PM
kobe has never had a PER over 28. LeBron and Michael have multiple years with their PER being in the 30's. you're telling me there wasn't one season where kobe put up a per above 28? sounds like BS to me. kobe is the 2nd great SG of all time. you may call that a stat, but i call that hate.

perhaps both MJ and LeBron were/are better players....

Chronz
12-13-2012, 11:50 PM
hes being facetious kids

Quinnsanity
12-13-2012, 11:50 PM
kobe has never had a PER over 28. LeBron and Michael have multiple years with their PER being in the 30's. you're telling me there wasn't one season where kobe put up a per above 28? sounds like BS to me. kobe is the 2nd great SG of all time. you may call that a stat, but i call that hate.

PER favors efficiency. It's in the title. Kobe has always been great but never been efficient. It's common sense.

el hidalgo
12-13-2012, 11:52 PM
perhaps both MJ and LeBron were/are better players....

i just spit my drink out all over my keyboard. there are 4 shiny, golden reasons why kobe is better than lebron.

Swashcuff
12-13-2012, 11:53 PM
PER favors efficiency. It's in the title. Kobe has always been great but never been efficient. It's common sense.

This is a myth. Kobe has always been an efficiency scorer.

blastmasta26
12-14-2012, 12:02 AM
i just spit my drink out all over my keyboard. there are 4 shiny, golden reasons why kobe is better than lebron.

:sigh: It always comes to this debate, yet people ignore context for the purpose of making a fallacious argument.

jmoney85
12-14-2012, 12:02 AM
i just spit my drink out all over my keyboard. there are 4 shiny, golden reasons why kobe is better than lebron.

aren't rings team accomplishments?

Blitzbolt
12-14-2012, 12:02 AM
Yea if you hear or see Pera(new owner) you knew a move like this was coming.

Blitzbolt
12-14-2012, 12:07 AM
I'm just glad the draft Scouts are finally getting fire they had like 8 top 10 draft picks and Mike Conley was the only good player they got.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 01:54 AM
Well, it's do or die time. Now we will see if the advanced stats wizard known as John Hollinger can successfully apply his formulas to something other than a computer. I will admit that I am interested to see how this pans out.

I also want to add that 11 time coaching champion Phil Jackson is more in favor of what he sees in front of him rather than statistics and numbers. Just some food for thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBZb_X5qjMg

mzgrizz
12-14-2012, 02:02 AM
Well it sounds like a recipe for success because we have some good ingredients already.
Wonder what other techno innovations we'll get with Pera.

el hidalgo
12-14-2012, 02:16 AM
Well, it's do or die time. Now we will see the advanced stats wizard known as John Hollinger apply his formulas to something other than a computer. I will admit that I am interested to see how this pans out.

I also want to add that 11 time coaching champion Phil Jackson is more in a favor of what he sees in front of him rather than statistics and numbers. Just some food for thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBZb_X5qjMg

preach it brotha. stat nerds would have never figured out that jordan+pippen and kobe+shaq would make good basketball teams.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 02:18 AM
preach it brotha. stat nerds would have never figured out that jordan+pippen and kobe+shaq would make good basketball teams.

How many rings did Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq win without Phil again???

Chronz
12-14-2012, 02:27 AM
LOL if Jim is into numbers he really sucks at the job

Knicks21
12-14-2012, 02:35 AM
Because Pera had said he planned to use advanced statistics on the team.........WOW! I must have been working too hard to just now read this!

This isnt 2001 anymore, advanced stats are available to anyone at anytime.

Its pointless.

el hidalgo
12-14-2012, 02:36 AM
How many rings did Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq win without Phil again???

how many rings did phil win without jordan, pippen, kobe, and shaq?

Hawkeye15
12-14-2012, 02:47 AM
i just spit my drink out all over my keyboard. there are 4 shiny, golden reasons why kobe is better than lebron.

I don't believe you. You are the ultimate Kobe troll, so I know your intentions.

And yes, Kobe's peak doesn't sniff either of the guys I listed...

jmoney85
12-14-2012, 02:47 AM
preach it brotha. stat nerds would have never figured out that jordan+pippen and kobe+shaq would make good basketball teams.

yes they would have

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-14-2012, 03:02 AM
I don't believe you. You are the ultimate Kobe troll, so I know your intentions.

And yes, Kobe's peak doesn't sniff either of the guys I listed...

Thank you Hawkeye! :clap:

el hidalgo
12-14-2012, 03:04 AM
i have kobe in my top 15. he is the 2nd greatest SG of all time

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-14-2012, 03:16 AM
Funny how a Hollinger thread turned into a Kobe thread.

Sadds The Gr8
12-14-2012, 03:17 AM
^you can thank your fellow Laker fan nickdymez for that. He embarrassed himself pretty badly in this thread

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-14-2012, 03:20 AM
^you can thank your fellow Laker fan nickdymez for that. He embarrassed himself pretty badly in this thread

Ya, I'll have to have a talk with a couple of Lakers fans here and there. Sometimes they get too emotional when the trolls attack. They need to learn to control their aggression and make everything about Kobe.

That being said, back on topic, I think it's pretty cool that HOllinger got this gig.


It's very interesting if you see the ownership of the Grizz (Pena, Penny Hardaway, Justin Timberlake) and now you have Hollinger aboard doing the managerial services.


It's a unique direction this franchise is going towards under new ownership.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2012, 03:21 AM
Funny how a Hollinger thread turned into a Kobe thread.

Laker fans hate Hollinger. Fact.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-14-2012, 03:23 AM
Laker fans hate Hollinger. Fact.

Yeah I used to hate him too, then I saw an interview with him one day, and felt like "Hey, I can probably have coffee and talk basketball with the guy". :laugh2:

He doesn't come off as douchey as Lakers fans make it out to be. It's all perception. You learn that the guy never really aimed to attack Kobe or any other player that his stats in one fashion or another might not have favored.

Sadds The Gr8
12-14-2012, 03:23 AM
Laker fans hate Hollinger. Fact.

he's looking like a prophet so far with that Lakers finishing in the 5th seed prediction. they all tried clowning on him after that

mightybosstone
12-14-2012, 03:23 AM
I'm debating getting rid of my ESPN Insider account entirely now. The only reason I had it for the most part was to read Hollinger's articles, although I do enjoy Thorpe's stuff as well. I'm happy for Hollinger, but I won't be nearly as excited about going to ESPN from now on. I'm sure as **** not going to start reading Chris Broussard's articles.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2012, 03:33 AM
Yeah I used to hate him too, then I saw an interview with him one day, and felt like "Hey, I can probably have coffee and talk basketball with the guy". :laugh2:

He doesn't come off as douchey as Lakers fans make it out to be. It's all perception. You learn that the guy never really aimed to attack Kobe or any other player that his stats in one fashion or another might not have favored.

I apologize for my blanket statement. The point is, Hollinger's ratings, and evaluations, show LeBron has been better than Kobe forever. And Laker fans can not swallow that pill. Some of them do, while trying to fight with context, the majority don't. Same with Melo fans, when it comes to the LeBron/Durant comparisons, and their guy just falls so short.

DenButsu
12-14-2012, 05:05 AM
Who cares !Its trash

:yawn:

Good for Hollinger. He's done more to make the use of advanced stats widely popular than anyone else, and it's great that his work is getting the formal recognition it deserves.

GunFactor187
12-14-2012, 05:42 AM
I wonder if Hollinger has an apprentice ready to take over for him on ESPN? That'll be great if he does keeping the Hollinger Stats and such going.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 06:26 AM
No, he is of the dying breed that thinks their eye test trumps any possible analytical study of a sport.

Dying breed eh...Phil Jackson and his 11 rings say hi. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBZb_X5qjMg
Fast forward to the 45 second mark where he says that he believes more in a product he can see feel and touch than in numbers and statistics.

NYYCowboys
12-14-2012, 06:39 AM
I'm debating getting rid of my ESPN Insider account entirely now. The only reason I had it for the most part was to read Hollinger's articles, although I do enjoy Thorpe's stuff as well. I'm happy for Hollinger, but I won't be nearly as excited about going to ESPN from now on. I'm sure as **** not going to start reading Chris Broussard's articles.

This. I looked forward to reading his articles. I really enjoyed his input on trades and free agent signings, especially ones that were awful. I really do hope they keep the Hollinger stats going on espn.com, otherwise I would also consider getting rid of my insider account.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 06:40 AM
LOL if Jim is into numbers he really sucks at the job

I'll second that.

The only numbers or "number" he needed to know was Phil Jackson's phone number so that he could have called him to offer him the coaching job instead of D'Antoni. He also should have known the number 11 and that 11 rings > 0 rings especially when you have an older team that is built to win "now". If he can't figure out simple **** like that, than he has no business even trying to **** with statistics.

Maybe Jim should have been the one to hire Hollinger for a FO position being such a "numbers guy". lol Probly not smart enough to think of that. Even if he did, I'm pretty sure that Hollinger wouldn't want to work with him anyways seeing as he would probably just end up bombarding him with "suggestions" and "improvement ideas" in a vain attempt to put his "stamp" on things like he did to Jerry West and Phil Jackson before he got on their last nerve and they told him to shut the **** up and let me do my ****ing job. Then his ego and feelings would be hurt and he would end up driving Hollinger out of the organization like he did to them.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 06:44 AM
he's looking like a prophet so far with that Lakers finishing in the 5th seed prediction. they all tried clowning on him after that

We will be lucky to finish with the 5th seed at this point. :(

DenButsu
12-14-2012, 10:32 AM
Well, it's do or die time. Now we will see if the advanced stats wizard known as John Hollinger can successfully apply his formulas to something other than a computer. I will admit that I am interested to see how this pans out.


That's such a great point, because when Hollinger goes to Memphis, it will be the first time in the history of the NBA for an organization to employ someone who uses andvanced stats as part of their analysis. I'm so glad this concept will FINALLY be put to the test... in the REAL WORLD and not just a computer! Exciting times...

Hawkeye15
12-14-2012, 11:07 AM
Dying breed eh...Phil Jackson and his 11 rings say hi. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBZb_X5qjMg
Fast forward to the 45 second mark where he says that he believes more in a product he can see feel and touch than in numbers and statistics.

I can provide plenty of examples of failures for any one you provide as a success when it comes to purely using the eye test since advanced stats became an accepted part of the game, scouting, evaluation.

nickdymez
12-14-2012, 11:12 AM
I can provide plenty of examples of failures for any one you provide as a success when it comes to purely using the eye test since advanced stats became an accepted part of the game, scouting, evaluation.

I dont understand why you guys get so offensive and hurt when people arent believers of advanced stats. It makes you guys look like your begging for people to take it serious. Bottom line, people dont want to turn basketball into world of warcraft.

NYY 26 to 7
12-14-2012, 11:33 AM
The Grizz are already awesome. If they win he shouldn't be credited unless there are moves made down the line that he has influenced. Always a good move to get as much evidence and information to make decisions as possible. I think every team should have advanced statisticians just so they have all the information in front of them. I'm not even a big fan of advanced stats in basketball because it is not possible to control for all confounding factors that influence stats in basketball. What it is, is a different look at trying to quantify the impact a player has that can be added to traditional analysis and player scouting.

This isn't baseball though were you have a set order of how everything goes and while it is a team sport each pitch is an individual activity and it is easier to account for the different confounding variables.

mightybosstone
12-14-2012, 11:51 AM
I dont understand why you guys get so offensive and hurt when people arent believers of advanced stats. It makes you guys look like your begging for people to take it serious. Bottom line, people dont want to turn basketball into world of warcraft.

You're seriously dumbing down advanced statistics with your analogy and there's a reason why people are hiring guys like John Hollinger. You can love the game, have a sound understanding of players, teams and how the sport works while also taking a much more analytical approach to understand what is really going on.

Hollinger is not the first guy to do this and he won't be the last. And if you don't think the guy can have any success in the NBA, advanced stats guys like Sam Presti and Daryl Morey might disagree with you.

If you think this is something that's just a fad that will die out, guess again. As more and more teams have success using these formulas and this approach to the sport, eventually every team will be using them and you won't see teams spend max contracts on inefficient players anymore. Eventually, stats like PER and WS will be as common as stats like OPS and WAR in baseball.

You can fight this as long as you want, but eventually you'll be a dinosaur in a league where fans generally understand and use these stats on a regular basis.

Chronz
12-14-2012, 02:01 PM
I'll second that.

The only numbers or "number" he needed to know was Phil Jackson's phone number so that he could have called him to offer him the coaching job instead of D'Antoni. He also should have known the number 11 and that 11 rings > 0 rings especially when you have an older team that is built to win "now". If he can't figure out simple **** like that, than he has no business even trying to **** with statistics.
Phil was the right choice, but to be fair to Jim and Antni (have you been listening to Kellerman?), they wouldn't be the first to think an aging Lakers crew can win on the strength of a transition game.


Maybe Jim should have been the one to hire Hollinger for a FO position being such a "numbers guy". lol Probly not smart enough to think of that. Even if he did, I'm pretty sure that Hollinger wouldn't want to work with him anyways seeing as he would probably just end up bombarding him with "suggestions" and "improvement ideas" in a vain attempt to put his "stamp" on things like he did to Jerry West and Phil Jackson before he got on their last nerve and they told him to shut the **** up and let me do my ****ing job. Then his ego and feelings would be hurt and he would end up driving Hollinger out of the organization like he did to them.
From what I understand they aren't really hiring too many analytic guys. Yet for some reason I keep hearing about their interest in numbers. Like when I heard Artest call Mike Brown a stat guy, I couldn't stop laughing after that one.

It always amuses me when guys who want to apply stats are so utterly clueless when it comes to them. It drove me insane when Dunleavy was coaching us, he tried to justify a low shooting % (Tim Thomas) by accounting for 3pt shots. Essentially talking about eFG%, only he only did it for his player and ignored the rest of the league.

MrfadeawayJB
12-14-2012, 02:06 PM
Finally the Grizz got rid of Barone. He cannot recruit worth a ****

THE MTL
12-14-2012, 02:09 PM
So I guess he'll be using his formulas in Memphis.

Chronz
12-14-2012, 02:09 PM
I wonder if Hollinger has an apprentice ready to take over for him on ESPN? That'll be great if he does keeping the Hollinger Stats and such going.

They have lots of guys, it would be a mistake to think what Hollinger does is all that unique, there are lots of egg heads and other guys trying to move up. Hell ESPN hired Dean O from Denver not too long ago. Kirksberry and the Prospectus crew all have their own power rankings and such.

Chronz
12-14-2012, 02:19 PM
I dont understand why you guys get so offensive and hurt when people arent believers of advanced stats. It makes you guys look like your begging for people to take it serious. Bottom line, people dont want to turn basketball into world of warcraft.

You guys? I thought you were gonna work on that generalizing thing....

And what it looks like to you or any other average joe fan isn't all that important, facts are, the people that matter are taking them seriously. I think we are up to 23/30 teams that have an analytic department.
So bottom line, people are beginning to see the value in analysis devoid of bias. So when you say people dont want to turn basketball into something as cold and as calculated as the worlds most popular game, which people are you referring to? Every day fans, guys who love football and like basketball? Because it looks to me all the hardcore fans with a desire to break into the business of analyzing the sport are getting into them, the guys who work in the front offices of the sport your watching are definitely getting into them.

I really dont know which group your talking about but I hope your right because in the end, the more people know about stats, the less of a leg up I have on the world. But oh well, cant put my selfish nature above the betterment of the game.

Chronz
12-14-2012, 02:26 PM
Dying breed eh...Phil Jackson and his 11 rings say hi. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBZb_X5qjMg
Fast forward to the 45 second mark where he says that he believes more in a product he can see feel and touch than in numbers and statistics.

No problem when a genius like Phil says it, my only question to him would be. How does your feel and eyes help you when it comes to scouting players in College/Overseas? How much time does he really have to scout them live? If he watches tape, is he able to feel the competition level through that lens?

I will always be a believer in San Antonio's mantra, eyes-ears-numbers. They havent been the best run team by accident, all those tremendous draft moves have been calculated risks.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 11:04 PM
That's such a great point, because when Hollinger goes to Memphis, it will be the first time in the history of the NBA for an organization to employ someone who uses andvanced stats as part of their analysis. I'm so glad this concept will FINALLY be put to the test... in the REAL WORLD and not just a computer! Exciting times...

I was referring to Hollinger himself, not the other collective stat geeks of the world. Hollinger is worshiped like a god on this site by some, I just am eager to see how he does in a real life situation. Hollinger is surely the king of the basketball stat geeks, and thats why I said what I did. The other advanced stat users that are employed by teams have nothing to do with my comment. Nice quote mining attempt though.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 11:11 PM
I'm happy for him.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2012, 11:12 PM
You guys? I thought you were gonna work on that generalizing thing....

And what it looks like to you or any other average joe fan isn't all that important, facts are, the people that matter are taking them seriously. I think we are up to 23/30 teams that have an analytic department.
So bottom line, people are beginning to see the value in analysis devoid of bias. So when you say people dont want to turn basketball into something as cold and as calculated as the worlds most popular game, which people are you referring to? Every day fans, guys who love football and like basketball? Because it looks to me all the hardcore fans with a desire to break into the business of analyzing the sport are getting into them, the guys who work in the front offices of the sport your watching are definitely getting into them.

I really dont know which group your talking about but I hope your right because in the end, the more people know about stats, the less of a leg up I have on the world. But oh well, cant put my selfish nature above the betterment of the game.
:laugh:
damn dude i don't know why he keeps coming back for more.

ManRam
12-14-2012, 11:16 PM
This thread confirmed all my stereotypes. Thank you jeebus.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 11:19 PM
Phil was the right choice, but to be fair to Jim and Antni (have you been listening to Kellerman?), they wouldn't be the first to think an aging Lakers crew can win on the strength of a transition game.

Yes I do listen to Kellerman and all the shows on 710. Jim went in a horrible direction IMO. He brought in a totally new system with an aging superstar (Kobe). On top of that, Pau is aging, and Nash is old. I really don't think that Jim has a clear plan on what he wants to do. On one hand, he built a team around Kobe that can win now. Then on the other hand, he has hired unproven coaches and added new systems that GM's would do if they were in rebuilding mode. If he really wants to add a new system and new coach, than he should either trade or amnesty Kobe, because it takes years to master a new system under a new coach. Kobe doesn't have more than a few years left. He could at least hire a coach that is more proven and fits the talent he has. D'Anotni did not fit with the talent the Lakers have, and he isn't really all that proven. Phil was the number one choice, and Sloan would have been the second choice.


From what I understand they aren't really hiring too many analytic guys. Yet for some reason I keep hearing about their interest in numbers. Like when I heard Artest call Mike Brown a stat guy, I couldn't stop laughing after that one.

Ya, the Lakers FO is a circus and Jim Buss is the head clown. I honestly would have been impressed if he had made a move like hiring Hollinger. I do have my doubts about Hollinger in terms of the overwhelming amount of credibility people throw at him, but that would have shown a lot of creativity IMO. I would have been a lot better of a choice than his little brother Joey, or his drinking buddy Chaz.


It always amuses me when guys who want to apply stats are so utterly clueless when it comes to them. It drove me insane when Dunleavy was coaching us, he tried to justify a low shooting % (Tim Thomas) by accounting for 3pt shots. Essentially talking about eFG%, only he only did it for his player and ignored the rest of the league.

To say that Dunleavy is not the best coach would be an understatement. that said, I'm very thankful that Jim did not hire him.

mzgrizz
12-14-2012, 11:50 PM
Ya, I'll have to have a talk with a couple of Lakers fans here and there. Sometimes they get too emotional when the trolls attack. They need to learn to control their aggression and make everything about Kobe.

That being said, back on topic, I think it's pretty cool that HOllinger got this gig.


It's very interesting if you see the ownership of the Grizz (Pena, Penny Hardaway, Justin Timberlake) and now you have Hollinger aboard doing the managerial services.


It's a unique direction this franchise is going towards under new ownership.


Don't forget Peyton and Ashley Manning,too

amos1er
12-14-2012, 11:53 PM
No problem when a genius like Phil says it, my only question to him would be. How does your feel and eyes help you when it comes to scouting players in College/Overseas? How much time does he really have to scout them live? If he watches tape, is he able to feel the competition level through that lens?

Yup, Phil's abilities are second to none. I wouldn't say that Phil's strength is scouting players in college/Overseas. He usually relies on the GM to do that kind of thing for him, though I'm sure he gives his input and through the interviews I have seen. Though I have noticed that Phil does have his ear to the ground a lot.

The GM and the coach are supposed to work side by side to build the team he needs to win. Thats exactly why Jim's presence has been hindering to say the least. I do know that it was Phil who pushed hard for Ariza which was a brilliant pick up and I do believe that if he was healthy, we could have pushed Boston to at least 7 games. Perhaps won the whole thing...:hide: Phil also liked Farmar, and Vujacic a lot and made the most of them in his system.

Phil doesn't rely on stats as much as he does his own intuition, though I'm sure that he does use them to an extent. He would be a fool not to. Phil is all about Zen and chemistry, not too many others use these methods probably because they are very hard to master. No one can do what he does and thats why he is one of the greatest basketball minds of all time. I'm very surprised that Jim Buss would have the audacity to even argue with him about anything considering his only accomplishment in life is being Jerry Buss's son.


I will always be a believer in San Antonio's mantra, eyes-ears-numbers. They havent been the best run team by accident, all those tremendous draft moves have been calculated risks.

I take my hat off to the San Antonio FO for what they have accomplished. They are truly the best FO in basketball today. If the Lakers had their FO the rest of the league would hate them even more than they do now. Their College/Overseas scouting is second to none. If San Antonio had Mitch as their GM, they would not even be close to what they are now. Mitch's success is mainly due to the company that he works for and the tangible assets he has at his disposal. Name brand, biggest market share, capital, hollywood, and the Los Angeles weather are more to do with why he has been able to accomplish the things he has than his own ability. He has a huge advantage over other GM's in the sense that he has the luxury of just adding to the house that Jerry West built. The foundation has been laid and all he has to do is maintain the structure.

amos1er
12-14-2012, 11:54 PM
I can provide plenty of examples of failures for any one you provide as a success when it comes to purely using the eye test since advanced stats became an accepted part of the game, scouting, evaluation.

You always say that, yet I never see you produce anything.

Chronz
12-15-2012, 01:25 AM
:laugh:
damn dude i don't know why he keeps coming back for more.

Im guessing if the Grizz lose tonight, he will blame Hollinger

JJ_JKidd
12-15-2012, 03:16 AM
Thank god. Enough of this stat whore.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2012, 04:18 AM
You always say that, yet I never see you produce anything.

ummmm, likewise. You are such a homer, I don't feel the need to debate, if falls on deaf ears..

amos1er
12-15-2012, 07:23 AM
ummmm, likewise. You are such a homer, I don't feel the need to debate, if falls on deaf ears..

Yet you still feel the need to tell me that you "can provide plenty of examples of failures for any one I provide", then when I ask you to provide these, you are all of the sudden above providing them. Why even bring up the fact that you can disprove me in the first place if your just going to bite your thumb at me when I call your bluff? I don't really see how this makes me look foolish.

Funny how you feel the need to go out of your way to tell me that you think of me as a "homer to whom your insightful words will fall on deaf ears", yet I am all of the sudden not worth your time when I ask you to back up your initial claims. I might be mistaken, but the term backpedaling seems to come to mind.

I guess what I'm really saying is why even bother responding to me in the first place if you are going to act as if you are above stooping to my level? In essence, you are speaking to me while at the same time telling me I am not worth being spoken to. If this isn't the perfect example of an oxymoron, I don't know what is.

Swashcuff
12-15-2012, 07:52 AM
ummmm, likewise. You are such a homer, I don't feel the need to debate, if falls on deaf ears..

Precisely. It's not even the fact that's its deaf ears, its absolute ignorance as well. I mean when I read some of his posts I really question as to how a human being who claims to be a fan of basketball can be so idiotic with their opinion. Sometimes I think that's there is a side to some posters brain that knows that the stuff they are saying is idiotic in his case I don't think there is.

amos1er
12-15-2012, 09:30 AM
Precisely. It's not even the fact that's its deaf ears, its absolute ignorance as well. I mean when I read some of his posts I really question as to how a human being who claims to be a fan of basketball can be so idiotic with their opinion. Sometimes I think that's there is a side to some posters brain that knows that the stuff they are saying is idiotic in his case I don't think there is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that because I happen to be of the opinion that Lebron is immensely overrated by certain posters on this site, and that because I don't feel Hollinger is one of the top minds in basketball that I am ignorant? I would hope not, because that would be quite the hasty generalization to say the least as well as an example of the pot calling the kettle black in terms of the ignorant label you bestowed upon me.

I will say that unlike Hawkeye, at least you have the decency and gumption not to deflect and to backup what you say. You have the right to think of me however you wish and if you think I am blind to my own idiocy than so be it. Whether your assessment is well founded or not is debatable however.

Needless to say, I disagree and take your insults with a grain of salt because IMO, it sounds like your little assessment has more to do with a personal offense than a valid critique on me. If I truly was the "rambling idiot" you make me out to be, you should easily be able to laugh me off and it goes without saying that you surely would not feel the need to insult my character in such a way.

Instead you feel the need to respond by referencing me in a post to Hawkeye. Perhaps I do make sense in what I say and your offended because I hit a nerve, or perhaps I could be a bit less harsh. Either way, your response itself allows me to read between the lines enough to know that your personal attacks have little to do with my ignorance and more to do with the fact that I touched a nerve in some way. Perhaps I am wrong, but again, if there is no truth to what I say, then you probably wouldn't even bother with me in the first place. Always remember that It's not what people say, but how they say it that lets you know what their true motives are.

At the end of the day, I have my opinion, and you have yours. Only difference is that I don't call you ignorant and attempt to tear apart your character for having them. When people disagree with me and call me out, I will always do my best to respond in an intelligent manner. Thats the fairest way I know how to avoid making blanket statements with no validity and to maintain credibility. I am also not afraid to back up my opinions and or statements. I welcome all critics and rebuttals and take no offense as long as people are respectful. If someone proves me wrong, thats cool and I respect that...I figure we both get something out of it.

That said, I challenge you to find me one post where I sound idiotic and or ignorant and explain why...

Swashcuff
12-15-2012, 09:57 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that because I happen to be of the opinion that Lebron is immensely overrated by certain posters on this site, and that because I don't feel Hollinger is one of the top minds in basketball that I am ignorant? I would hope not, because that would be quite the hasty generalization to say the least as well as an example of the pot calling the kettle black in terms of the ignorant label you bestowed upon me.

I will say that unlike Hawkeye, at least you have the decency and gumption not to deflect and to backup what you say. You have the right to think of me however you wish and if you think I am blind to my own idiocy than so be it. Whether your assessment is well founded or not is debatable however.

Needless to say, I disagree and take your insults with a grain of salt because IMO, it sounds like your little assessment has more to do with a personal offense than a valid critique on me. If I truly was the "rambling idiot" you make me out to be, you should easily be able to laugh me off and it goes without saying that you surely would not feel the need to insult my character in such a way.

Instead you feel the need to respond by referencing me in a post to Hawkeye. Perhaps I do make sense in what I say and your offended because I hit a nerve, or perhaps I could be a bit less harsh. Either way, your response itself allows me to read between the lines enough to know that your personal attacks have little to do with my ignorance and more to do with the fact that I touched a nerve. Perhaps I am wrong, but again, if there is no truth to what I say, then you probably wouldn't even bother with me. Always remember that It's not what people say, but how they say it that lets you know what their true motives are.

At the end of the day, I have my opinion, and you have yours. Only difference is that I don't call you ignorant and attempt to tear apart your character for having them. When people disagree with me and call me out, I will always do my best to respond in an intelligent manner. Thats the fairest way I know how to avoid making blanket statements with no validity. I am also not afraid to back up my opinions and or statements. I welcome all critics and rebuttals and take no offense as long as people are respectful. If someone proves me wrong, thats cool and I respect that...I figure we both get something out of it.

That said, I challenge you to find me one post where I sound idiotic and or ignorant and explain why...

Dude the posts are everywhere. Damn near every time I see you post its something idiotic. We've seen it in this very thread it makes it hard for one to even have a serious debate with you since some of the things you say is borderline unimaginable almost makes one think you're trolling and unable to take you seriously.

Why should Hawkeye15 waste his time? Hawkeye15 and myself have gotten into it on occasion after occasion with opposite opinions but guess what happens at the end of it we can at least come to some common ground on where we stand and understand the other's POV with reasonable thinking. He thinks A.I. is one of the most overrated players to ever play the game of basketball and a borderline cancer I well anyone who has ever seen me post knows how I feel about A.I. Even so at the end of conversations about A.I. I see his POV and while I don't agree with it I can certainly respect it. That is not the case with you, that's why no one other than Kobephiles and LeBron haters agree with anything you have to say.

I'm honestly not in the mood to go through your post history and pick and choose through each and everyone of those arguments I had with you because as I have learned from speaking to you its a total and complete waste of time (much like Nicky). Before you chastise me about it remember on the occasions in which I asked you to do the same you failed to bring up what you so claimed.

The only reason I actually take the time to reply to you is because I believed that somehow you'd be able to use the rational side of your brain (I thought there was one) and admit where you were wrong but I've never seen it happen and will never seen it happen. What I have seen you do however is ask questions about something/someone on the pretense that you wanted to learn about it and when someone gives you the facts you go off on them (thus masking your true agenda). Honestly dude its impossible to have an adult conversation with you because you hold steadfast in your opinion and no matter how many times you are proven wrong you keep regurgitating the same old ****. Many of us are here because we want to share our opinions and are willing to having them changed by those that know more than us but you just seem to be unwilling.

Einstein's definition of insanity? doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That's how someone feel when they try to talk to you. Like they are going insane.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-15-2012, 10:42 AM
very interesting hiring by the grizz organization.
interesting to see exactly what he offers them.

nickdymez
12-15-2012, 12:15 PM
The advanced stat crew came out in full effect when they heard Hollinger was hired. Look at all the usual click in here defending advanced stats, with the main argument "Laker fans hate advanced stats because of kobe". When i first heard of advanced stats I automatically figured Kobe would have better than most because he is so good. But the advanced stat crew (Kobe haters) came in and debunked that right away. I still hated them when i thought Kobe had good stats. Because they have NO PLACE IN BASKETBALL!!!!! Nerds have no place in basketball

nickdymez
12-15-2012, 12:17 PM
Dude the posts are everywhere. Damn near every time I see you post its something idiotic. We've seen it in this very thread it makes it hard for one to even have a serious debate with you since some of the things you say is borderline unimaginable almost makes one think you're trolling and unable to take you seriously.

Why should Hawkeye15 waste his time? Hawkeye15 and myself have gotten into it on occasion after occasion with opposite opinions but guess what happens at the end of it we can at least come to some common ground on where we stand and understand the other's POV with reasonable thinking. He thinks A.I. is one of the most overrated players to ever play the game of basketball and a borderline cancer I well anyone who has ever seen me post knows how I feel about A.I. Even so at the end of conversations about A.I. I see his POV and while I don't agree with it I can certainly respect it. That is not the case with you, that's why no one other than Kobephiles and LeBron haters agree with anything you have to say.

I'm honestly not in the mood to go through your post history and pick and choose through each and everyone of those arguments I had with you because as I have learned from speaking to you its a total and complete waste of time (much like Nicky). Before you chastise me about it remember on the occasions in which I asked you to do the same you failed to bring up what you so claimed.

The only reason I actually take the time to reply to you is because I believed that somehow you'd be able to use the rational side of your brain (I thought there was one) and admit where you were wrong but I've never seen it happen and will never seen it happen. What I have seen you do however is ask questions about something/someone on the pretense that you wanted to learn about it and when someone gives you the facts you go off on them (thus masking your true agenda). Honestly dude its impossible to have an adult conversation with you because you hold steadfast in your opinion and no matter how many times you are proven wrong you keep regurgitating the same old ****. Many of us are here because we want to share our opinions and are willing to having them changed by those that know more than us but you just seem to be unwilling.

Einstein's definition of insanity? doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That's how someone feel when they try to talk to you. Like they are going insane.


I skimmed through this and it was filled with arrogance. You people are ridiculous. You think your so smart, apply for an NBA job and shut up

Swashcuff
12-15-2012, 12:33 PM
The advanced stat crew came out in full effect when they heard Hollinger was hired. Look at all the usual click in here defending advanced stats, with the main argument "Laker fans hate advanced stats because of kobe". When i first heard of advanced stats I automatically figured Kobe would have better than most because he is so good. But the advanced stat crew (Kobe haters) came in and debunked that right away. I still hated them when i thought Kobe had good stats. Because they have NO PLACE IN BASKETBALL!!!!! Nerds have no place in basketball

amos1er tell me something do you share these sentiments? I'd like to see you answer this question don't dodge.

I mean seriously all the teams in the NBA all have advanced statisticians hired to do just that with a couple GMs and even a man who is regarded as one of the best owners in sports Mark Cuban stating that advanced stats not only have a place in basketball but they base most of their decisions on them and you have people stating that they have no place. Isn't that dinosaur thinking? Isn't that clearly showing that you don't care about the growth of the game but rather just your agenda?

If the 30 NBA franchises incorporate advanced stats in their decisions making, every single one of the reputable web sites feature them and we even have players admitting to using them to improve their game how can anyone who claims to be a fan of the game say something as ignorant as they have no place?

Honestly you guys call yourselves basketball fans but quite frankly from reading what you say I can say that beyond a shadow of a doubt you are not. I don't care if you guys like advanced stats or think they are valuable but the mere fact that some of you bash them and don't even take a second out of your day to understand how they came about and what they represent shows that you aren't a true fan of the game. You're just a fan of a player/team and once anyone says anything to that doesn't align with your selfishly biased opinion you'll fight tooth and nail to do anything you can to discredit them.

You guys can call me arrogant IDGAF really because quite frankly I know I have a wayyyyyyyyyyyyy greater understanding/knowledge of the game than you do. Allen Iverson has some of the worse advanced stats of any of the players we consider all time great shouldn't I hate them as well? Well guess what thanks to advanced stats I appreciate what A.I. was able to accomplish so much more than without them. Why? Because I do my best to understand them, form my own informed opinion on them and accept the fact that they are not the end all in basketball, you STILL need to watch the game, read the reviews, listen to the interviews etc.

PS Nicky NEVER sees the bolded part when we ALL state this.

IndyRealist
12-15-2012, 01:50 PM
because he can develop further player/team evaluations for them...

I can virtually guarantee that if he was interviewing for nba jobs, he's got stuff he never put up on espn.

el hidalgo
12-15-2012, 02:19 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that because I happen to be of the opinion that Lebron is immensely overrated by certain posters on this site, and that because I don't feel Hollinger is one of the top minds in basketball that I am ignorant? I would hope not, because that would be quite the hasty generalization to say the least as well as an example of the pot calling the kettle black in terms of the ignorant label you bestowed upon me.

I will say that unlike Hawkeye, at least you have the decency and gumption not to deflect and to backup what you say. You have the right to think of me however you wish and if you think I am blind to my own idiocy than so be it. Whether your assessment is well founded or not is debatable however.

Needless to say, I disagree and take your insults with a grain of salt because IMO, it sounds like your little assessment has more to do with a personal offense than a valid critique on me. If I truly was the "rambling idiot" you make me out to be, you should easily be able to laugh me off and it goes without saying that you surely would not feel the need to insult my character in such a way.

Instead you feel the need to respond by referencing me in a post to Hawkeye. Perhaps I do make sense in what I say and your offended because I hit a nerve, or perhaps I could be a bit less harsh. Either way, your response itself allows me to read between the lines enough to know that your personal attacks have little to do with my ignorance and more to do with the fact that I touched a nerve in some way. Perhaps I am wrong, but again, if there is no truth to what I say, then you probably wouldn't even bother with me in the first place. Always remember that It's not what people say, but how they say it that lets you know what their true motives are.

At the end of the day, I have my opinion, and you have yours. Only difference is that I don't call you ignorant and attempt to tear apart your character for having them. When people disagree with me and call me out, I will always do my best to respond in an intelligent manner. Thats the fairest way I know how to avoid making blanket statements with no validity and to maintain credibility. I am also not afraid to back up my opinions and or statements. I welcome all critics and rebuttals and take no offense as long as people are respectful. If someone proves me wrong, thats cool and I respect that...I figure we both get something out of it.

That said, I challenge you to find me one post where I sound idiotic and or ignorant and explain why...

Found one.
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=785096&page=7
your whole "lebron wouldn't work with a true C" argument was pretty idiotic. please, respond to swashcuff and prove otherwise.

mzgrizz
12-15-2012, 03:20 PM
The Grizz are already awesome. If they win he shouldn't be credited unless there are moves made down the line that he has influenced. Always a good move to get as much evidence and information to make decisions as possible. I think every team should have advanced statisticians just so they have all the information in front of them. I'm not even a big fan of advanced stats in basketball because it is not possible to control for all confounding factors that influence stats in basketball. What it is, is a different look at trying to quantify the impact a player has that can be added to traditional analysis and player scouting.

This isn't baseball though were you have a set order of how everything goes and while it is a team sport each pitch is an individual activity and it is easier to account for the different confounding variables.

Well.....maybe not! They are struggling mightily and I wonder if the team is starting to sweat over their upcoming evaluations by Hollinger. They have looked TERRIBLE lately and I am waiting on a Christmas miracle that the Grizz will find their identity under the tree(with or without a Hollinger eval)

Chronz
12-15-2012, 03:38 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PERDiem-121214/john-hollinger-farewell-column

final per diem

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-15-2012, 03:45 PM
If you haven't been reading Tom Haberstroh, his Writer Efficiency Rating has been off the charts, and you should be soaking up all his stuff quickly in case Erik Spoelstra adopts him.


I knew Fat Haberstroh was going to be his successor. :laugh2:

nickdymez
12-15-2012, 03:55 PM
The advanced stat crew came out in full effect when they heard Hollinger was hired. Look at all the usual click in here defending advanced stats, with the main argument "Laker fans hate advanced stats because of kobe". When i first heard of advanced stats I automatically figured Kobe would have better than most because he is so good. But the advanced stat crew (Kobe haters) came in and debunked that right away. I still hated them when i thought Kobe had good stats. Because they have NO PLACE IN BASKETBALL!!!!! Nerds have no place in basketball

amos1er tell me something do you share these sentiments? I'd like to see you answer this question don't dodge.

I mean seriously all the teams in the NBA all have advanced statisticians hired to do just that with a couple GMs and even a man who is regarded as one of the best owners in sports Mark Cuban stating that advanced stats not only have a place in basketball but they base most of their decisions on them and you have people stating that they have no place. Isn't that dinosaur thinking? Isn't that clearly showing that you don't care about the growth of the game but rather just your agenda?

If the 30 NBA franchises incorporate advanced stats in their decisions making, every single one of the reputable web sites feature them and we even have players admitting to using them to improve their game how can anyone who claims to be a fan of the game say something as ignorant as they have no place?

Honestly you guys call yourselves basketball fans but quite frankly from reading what you say I can say that beyond a shadow of a doubt you are not. I don't care if you guys like advanced stats or think they are valuable but the mere fact that some of you bash them and don't even take a second out of your day to understand how they came about and what they represent shows that you aren't a true fan of the game. You're just a fan of a player/team and once anyone says anything to that doesn't align with your selfishly biased opinion you'll fight tooth and nail to do anything you can to discredit them.

You guys can call me arrogant IDGAF really because quite frankly I know I have a wayyyyyyyyyyyyy greater understanding/knowledge of the game than you do. Allen Iverson has some of the worse advanced stats of any of the players we consider all time great shouldn't I hate them as well? Well guess what thanks to advanced stats I appreciate what A.I. was able to accomplish so much more than without them. Why? Because I do my best to understand them, form my own informed opinion on them and accept the fact that they are not the end all in basketball, you STILL need to watch the game, read the reviews, listen to the interviews etc.

PS Nicky NEVER sees the bolded part when we ALL state this.

APPLY FOR AN NBA JOB OR SHUT UP!! Your so much smarter than us idiots who dont give any semblance of a **** about advanced stats. Apply for a job. Use me as a reference, inbox me for my contact info and i'll be sure to tell whichever team about how much smarter you are than the average idiot nba fan. I don't share the views of anyone here BRO, so dont mention me when you wanna break your neck to prove your point about advanced ****in stats. If it was that real, you people wouldnt give a **** about what me and some other posters think about them, instead your getting very emotional and defensive.

Chronz
12-15-2012, 04:13 PM
I knew Fat Haberstroh was going to be his successor. :laugh2:

Kevin Pelton is one of the veterans now, and he's developed some really sophisticated tools for things like injuries and future projections. Beckley Mason at TrueHoop and Zach Lowe over at Grantland have incorporated the advanced stats into more general missives about the league -- again, a sign of how this field has gone mainstream -- and have become must-reads.

What makes you think so?

amos1er
12-15-2012, 11:51 PM
Dude the posts are everywhere. Damn near every time I see you post its something idiotic. We've seen it in this very thread it makes it hard for one to even have a serious debate with you since some of the things you say is borderline unimaginable almost makes one think you're trolling and unable to take you seriously.

All I said in this thread was that Phil Jackson, an 11 time champion and the greatest coach of all time, prefers what he can see over numbers and statistics. I even provided a video clip. What is so idiotic about that?


Why should Hawkeye15 waste his time? Hawkeye15 and myself have gotten into it on occasion after occasion with opposite opinions but guess what happens at the end of it we can at least come to some common ground on where we stand and understand the other's POV with reasonable thinking. He thinks A.I. is one of the most overrated players to ever play the game of basketball and a borderline cancer I well anyone who has ever seen me post knows how I feel about A.I. Even so at the end of conversations about A.I. I see his POV and while I don't agree with it I can certainly respect it. That is not the case with you, that's why no one other than Kobephiles and LeBron haters agree with anything you have to say.

If you and Hawkeye feel it's a waste of time to debate with me, than why even bother to call me out in the first place? I am only going to further escalate on whatever point you bring up (as anyone should). How would you like it if someone made ad hominem remarks to one of your posts calling you a Lebronite or a Lebronnutthugger? Wouldn't you want them to clarify and elaborate their points? Thats all I'm asking. Hawkeye scoffed at the point I made about Phil Jackson, which I thought was a good point, and said that for every lame contradiction I can find, he can find more. I then asked him to find me one. He then acted like he was above me and did not provide anything to debate me. I don't really see how I'm in the wrong here. Certain posters like Chronz (and even you) always will engage anyone in a fair debate no matter how foolish they thing the other persons argument is. If someone choses not to debate, thats fine, but they shouldn't attack someone's argument without having a good one of their own. If they think they are above someone, they shouldn't say anything at all. I'm sure you can agree with me on that point.

BTW, I don't think Iverson is overrated or a borderline virus, I find that most basketball fans don't give him his due. Not saying that he is underrated or anything, I just think that he gets his fair share of criticism and that in the right system he could have flourished. Of course there are a small segment of Iverson homers that will overrate him, but that can be said about any superstar...especially Lebron. I do feel that Lebron is overrated immensely by the casual NBA fan and I let that be known as you well know. I will admit that Lebron has had his fair share of criticism over the last few years, and he has taken it well for the most part. He has even stepped up and improved his game in a few areas, mostly outside shooting and defense. That said, he is still vastly overrated by a lot of people on this site. An example would be those that say he is already a top ten player and Kobe is only a top 15 player. That is way more asinine than anything I have ever said, why don't you feel the need to call these people out the way you do to me and other Laker fans?


I'm honestly not in the mood to go through your post history and pick and choose through each and everyone of those arguments I had with you because as I have learned from speaking to you its a total and complete waste of time (much like Nicky). Before you chastise me about it remember on the occasions in which I asked you to do the same you failed to bring up what you so claimed.

If I failed to provide any sort of proof you asked me for in the past, I either did not see your post, or I conceded the argument. But I always do my best to answer direct questions if I have the time. Especially if I am the one who initiated the debate. Sometimes I have multiple responses and I just don't have the time to respond to all of them. You said in your first paragraph that I had some examples in this thread alone, if thats the case, than you don't really have to go though my post history to find one.


The only reason I actually take the time to reply to you is because I believed that somehow you'd be able to use the rational side of your brain (I thought there was one) and admit where you were wrong but I've never seen it happen and will never seen it happen. What I have seen you do however is ask questions about something/someone on the pretense that you wanted to learn about it and when someone gives you the facts you go off on them (thus masking your true agenda). Honestly dude its impossible to have an adult conversation with you because you hold steadfast in your opinion and no matter how many times you are proven wrong you keep regurgitating the same old ****. Many of us are here because we want to share our opinions and are willing to having them changed by those that know more than us but you just seem to be unwilling.

Look, no one likes to admit they are wrong, including myself and the majority of posters on here. I will take this as constructive criticism and make an attempt to be more objective to people who make good arguments against me. I will say that if I don't admit I'm wrong as you say, it's mostly because I didn't feel the opposing argument was strong enough for me to do so. Just as you think that I have had idiotic posts in the past, there are also plenty of examples of me giving other posters the leeway they deserve...only if I feel they deserve it though. For example, when you called me ignorant, my response was different than it is now. In this post you were more respectful, so I took the initiative to return that favor.


Einstein's definition of insanity? doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That's how someone feel when they try to talk to you. Like they are going insane.

Perhaps you feel that way, but I don't really see how you can speak for anyone else. I actually like that quote a lot and it's one of my favorites. There is also another quote by Mark Twain that says: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

Not saying that all advanced stats are a joke or anything, I'm just saying that they should be taken with a grain of salt and interpreted by people who are knowledgeable enough to do so. I also think that it is possible that statistics as a whole are influenced by human bias, and Mark Twain warns of that in his quote.

Now does that mean that I think Hollinger sat in his underground workshop and went over 1000 different formulas before he came up with one that favored Lebron over Kobe. No thats not what I mean at all and as many have pointed out this is a conspiracy theory and impossible to prove. If I have led people to think that I believe that in the past, I want to clarify now that I don't believe that. I just feel that there are too many other variables for advanced stats to be a considered one of the best measures for both evaluating talent and building a championship team and Phil Jackson agrees with me.

What I have a problem with is the average Lebron fan claiming PER and other advanced stats as the concrete proof that Lebron is above Kobe and on his way to surpassing Jordan. There are many other factors to consider and advanced stats are only a piece to the puzzle. Many of these "Lebronites" are not even qualified enough to understand what they are even talking about and they look foolish when doing so. Just as you feel that Kobe fans are foolish when they make outlandish claims as well. I will say that IMO there are a lot more people on this site overrating Lebron than there are Kobe. Hope I answered all your questions.

amos1er
12-16-2012, 12:01 AM
Found one.
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=785096&page=7
your whole "lebron wouldn't work with a true C" argument was pretty idiotic. please, respond to swashcuff and prove otherwise.

I don't think that is idiotic at all. Never once in Lebron's career has he or his coach made it a point of emphasis to go out and get a true center. In fact, they always seem to be seeking spot up shooters to put around him. e.i Ray Allen, Shane Battier. They never made it a priority to go out and get a Nene or a Chandler. Lebron is a very stats oriented player and thats just a fact. Jordan was the same way as he would constantly check with the scorers table to see if they missed an assist or rebound. If Lebron can win rings without a true center while putting up impressive stat lines, than so be it. If your winning, than no one should question your methods. It's just that I feel Lebron could have done more in a more orthodox system with a true center. His numbers would have suffered, but I feel he could have won more as he has a high enough basketball IQ where he can flourish in any system. Maybe I am wrong that he hasn't wanted to play with a true center and my reasoning why, but its just a theory and my statement that he hasn't played with a true center is a fact; other than an old Shaq that one year in Cleveland who only averaged 23 minutes per game.

Sactown
12-16-2012, 01:00 AM
I don't think that is idiotic at all. Never once in Lebron's career has he or his coach made it a point of emphasis to go out and get a true center. In fact, they always seem to be seeking spot up shooters to put around him. e.i Ray Allen, Shane Battier. They never made it a priority to go out and get a Nene or a Chandler. Lebron is a very stats oriented player and thats just a fact. Jordan was the same way as he would constantly check with the scorers table to see if they missed an assist or rebound. If Lebron can win rings without a true center while putting up impressive stat lines, than so be it. If your winning, than no one should question your methods. It's just that I feel Lebron could have done more in a more orthodox system with a true center. His numbers would have suffered, but I feel he could have won more as he has a high enough basketball IQ where he can flourish in any system. Maybe I am wrong that he hasn't wanted to play with a true center and my reasoning why, but its just a theory and my statement that he hasn't played with a true center is a fact; other than an old Shaq that one year in Cleveland who only averaged 23 minutes per game.

I actually think Lebron would fair well with a true center as long as they were mildly mobile, I don't think his numbers would decrease unless they were extremely ball dominant. Also you say he never pushed for a true center? How many true centers are their in the league???? Hibbert? Yeah I don't think Lebron would want that contract. Howard? Given the chance I bet he would like to play with him, Tyson Chandler? Yet again his contract is ridiculous! There aren't enough true centers in the league to say he hasn't wanted to play with one, and out of the true centers in the league none have a reasonable contract, or are available.

Chronz
12-16-2012, 02:37 AM
I actually think Lebron would fair well with a true center as long as they were mildly mobile, I don't think his numbers would decrease unless they were extremely ball dominant. Also you say he never pushed for a true center? How many true centers are their in the league???? Hibbert? Yeah I don't think Lebron would want that contract. Howard? Given the chance I bet he would like to play with him, Tyson Chandler? Yet again his contract is ridiculous! There aren't enough true centers in the league to say he hasn't wanted to play with one, and out of the true centers in the league none have a reasonable contract, or are available.

Full of ****, hes played with Shaq, Big Ben, Anderson V. Didn't seem to hurt him.

Why would playing with a true center like Shaq help a guy like Wade but hurt Bron? Its non-sense

amos1er
12-16-2012, 03:25 AM
Full of ****, hes played with Shaq, Big Ben, Anderson V. Didn't seem to hurt him.

Why would playing with a true center like Shaq help a guy like Wade but hurt Bron? Its non-sense

If you read my post, I never said it would hurt him. I actually said it would help him in terms of producing wins. Just that his rebounds per game would take a slight dive.

amos1er
12-16-2012, 03:42 AM
I actually think Lebron would fair well with a true center as long as they were mildly mobile, I don't think his numbers would decrease unless they were extremely ball dominant. Also you say he never pushed for a true center? How many true centers are their in the league???? Hibbert? Yeah I don't think Lebron would want that contract. Howard? Given the chance I bet he would like to play with him, Tyson Chandler? Yet again his contract is ridiculous! There aren't enough true centers in the league to say he hasn't wanted to play with one, and out of the true centers in the league none have a reasonable contract, or are available.

If you read my post I did say that he would do better with a true center. I also said that I didn't know if he personally had pushed for a true center behind closed doors or not. It's impossible for me to know that. I just have never heard him or any of the teams he has played on make it a point of emphasis publicly. They always seem to go and get more spot up shooters to put around him. He has never played with a big who has averaged over 10 rebounds per game while playing along side him.

Guppyfighter
12-16-2012, 05:48 AM
I haven't read all of the thread involving amoser. But I do know he is extremely ignorant to advanced stats and has an irrational hatred for Hollinger and that's because during the preseason he predicted the Lakers would bed the fourth seed.

This is all bias right now against Hollinger. He acts as if people who use stats to get a clearer picture don't watch games and that's a blatant buzz phrase. Hollinger was very candid with what he saw during the game,

Example
"I am a veteran Joe Johnson watcher and it looks like he lost a step. He's not getting past guys with those hesitation moves anymore."

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 07:44 AM
If you read my post, I never said it would hurt him. I actually said it would help him in terms of producing wins. Just that his rebounds per game would take a slight dive.

Again another LIE (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=24594380&postcount=91).


Shaq just demands too much of the post for Lebron to put up big numbers. Maybe they would have gotten one title (doubt it because Lebron has bungled many opportunities due to his lack of clutch gene), but Lebron would have had lesser ppg and fg%, not to mention less rebounds and assists. Remember all the times that Kobe took over in the 4th quarter when Shaq fouled out or the other team was Hack a Shaqing??? With Lebron's early and mid career choking in the 4th quarter and horrible freethrow shooting, there would have been no one to close games out.

This right here is the major reason why I think it doesn't make any sense whatsoever debating with you but yet still I try because I've read your posts in the past and I know you know much more about the game than the common troll aka nicky, you just dumb yourself down to preposterous level to satisfying your agenda.

You said LeBron with average 25,5 and 5 if he played with a player like Shaq but completely ignore the fact that not only doesn't LeBron have an improved perimeter game he has become elite in that regard. You act like you don't know this but you DO. People can't take your posts seriously around here because you keep flip flopping and act as if you're trying to please someone when they call you out on your ways. Basically you're borderline trolling in your posts.

Saying that you doubt LeBron would win a single title with Shaq isn't only ignorant, its idiotic, its irrational, is incoherent, hell basically its a farmload of horse **** and I hold no bones about that.

Swashcuff
12-16-2012, 08:52 AM
All I said in this thread was that Phil Jackson, an 11 time champion and the greatest coach of all time, prefers what he can see over numbers and statistics. I even provided a video clip. What is so idiotic about that?

Dude basically all you're doing is reaching. Reaching for anything and everything you can. No one even cares about what Phil said because its not relevant to the discussion. That's Phil's opinion great but there was NO ONE in the entire thread that said anything along those lines you just found out something Phil said and said cool I'm going to insert this into every advanced stats argument.


If you and Hawkeye feel it's a waste of time to debate with me, than why even bother to call me out in the first place? I am only going to further escalate on whatever point you bring up (as anyone should). How would you like it if someone made ad hominem remarks to one of your posts calling you a Lebronite or a Lebronnutthugger? Wouldn't you want them to clarify and elaborate their points? Thats all I'm asking. Hawkeye scoffed at the point I made about Phil Jackson, which I thought was a good point, and said that for every lame contradiction I can find, he can find more. I then asked him to find me one. He then acted like he was above me and did not provide anything to debate me. I don't really see how I'm in the wrong here. Certain posters like Chronz (and even you) always will engage anyone in a fair debate no matter how foolish they thing the other persons argument is. If someone choses not to debate, thats fine, but they shouldn't attack someone's argument without having a good one of their own. If they think they are above someone, they shouldn't say anything at all. I'm sure you can agree with me on that point.

BTW, I don't think Iverson is overrated or a borderline virus, I find that most basketball fans don't give him his due. Not saying that he is underrated or anything, I just think that he gets his fair share of criticism and that in the right system he could have flourished. Of course there are a small segment of Iverson homers that will overrate him, but that can be said about any superstar...especially Lebron. I do feel that Lebron is overrated immensely by the casual NBA fan and I let that be known as you well know. I will admit that Lebron has had his fair share of criticism over the last few years, and he has taken it well for the most part. He has even stepped up and improved his game in a few areas, mostly outside shooting and defense. That said, he is still vastly overrated by a lot of people on this site. An example would be those that say he is already a top ten player and Kobe is only a top 15 player. That is way more asinine than anything I have ever said, why don't you feel the need to call these people out the way you do to me and other Laker fans?

You do realize that I'm basically the only dude around here that still tries with you? Hawkeye15 and others have clearly gotten tired of attempting to have conversations with you where you're just going to continue to spew ignorance. I don't know why he calls you out me personally I call you out as a reminder to you to let you know how baseless damn near all your posts are, maybe you'll change maybe not.

As for people saying LeBron is top 10 and Kobe is only top 15 can you please tell us exactly who was the poster (s) that said that. Hawkeye15 and Baller (OKC fan) are two guys that seen as Kobe haters (Hawkeye15 isn't baller maybe) but I know they both think Kobe is top 10 and LeBron hasn't reached that plateau as yet. What they do say however is that if you compare both Kobe and LeBron at their best LeBron is the better player.


If I failed to provide any sort of proof you asked me for in the past, I either did not see your post, or I conceded the argument. But I always do my best to answer direct questions if I have the time. Especially if I am the one who initiated the debate. Sometimes I have multiple responses and I just don't have the time to respond to all of them. You said in your first paragraph that I had some examples in this thread alone, if thats the case, than you don't really have to go though my post history to find one.

No actually you said you weren't going to look for anyone who said the things you so claimed.


Perhaps you feel that way, but I don't really see how you can speak for anyone else. I actually like that quote a lot and it's one of my favorites. There is also another quote by Mark Twain that says: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

Twain better be talking about stats because the amount of grammatical errors in his writings lead me to believe that he was better at math than grammar.

IMO this again an example of you reaching. Now tell me how on earth does that apply to what we're talking about here. Are you saying that all stats are lies? Therefore Kobe's 81 is a lie? 30,000 that's a lie? By that same token people can diminish Kobe's career MUCH more than they can LeBron.


Not saying that all advanced stats are a joke or anything, I'm just saying that they should be taken with a grain of salt and interpreted by people who are knowledgeable enough to do so. I also think that it is possible that statistics as a whole are influenced by human bias, and Mark Twain warns of that in his quote.

Well you said I can't speak for anyone else so I'll just speak for myself. I am knowledgeable enough to do so. It's not that I'm some kinda mathematician because its quite the contrary I'm just a fan of the game who wanted to broaden my knowledge of it by learning as much as I could by the evidence which was out there.


Now does that mean that I think Hollinger sat in his underground workshop and went over 1000 different formulas before he came up with one that favored Lebron over Kobe. No thats not what I mean at all and as many have pointed out this is a conspiracy theory and impossible to prove. If I have led people to think that I believe that in the past, I want to clarify now that I don't believe that. I just feel that there are too many other variables for advanced stats to be a considered one of the best measures for both evaluating talent and building a championship team and Phil Jackson agrees with me.

Phil Jackson is a basketball guru one of the greatest minds in the history of this sport what he sees when he looks at players and what you see are two totally different things and you just need to read two posts you've made about LeBron and read two of Phil's quotes of LeBron to know this.

Mark Cuban agrees with Hollinger and the direction the league is going. He himself stated that his signing of Elton Brand was based on the advanced stats in which he had last season and even more than that was that they used advanced stats in defeating the Miami Heat.

http://cache.deadspin.com/assets/images/11/2011/06/mavs_with_beech_wide.jpg

The guy to the far right in the blue shirt and blue tie is Roland Beech the founder of 82games.com and a member of the Dallas Mavericks staff for the last 4 years replaced his predecessor Wayne Winston (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/7009/wayne-winston-mark-cuban-s-stats-expert-isn-t-bashful) who was the Mavs previous stats guys and has been credited as one of the major reasons for the Mavs upsetting the Heat because of him applying the understanding of the game from a statistical standpoint.


Mark Cuban

the stats they used in the article dont show match ups by lineup against lineup. IN a playoff series, while the information isnt perfect, the longer the series, the better the information. So we knew which lineups worked against which of their lineups. We also then had to build in substitution patterns and expected responses to change. Things that Coach Carlisle is great at. Its a chess match.

Plus, Using stats arent always about putting your best combination out there, but sometimes about trying to get them to put their worst combination of players on the floor and then getting them to do things they are least comfortable with.

net, net, as I always have said, the one thing that stats, no matter which stats you use, dont take into account is coaching. Making the right decisions with the stats is more important than knowing what the numbers are .

Cuban is seen by sports fans in general as one of the best owners in sports.


What I have a problem with is the average Lebron fan claiming PER and other advanced stats as the concrete proof that Lebron is above Kobe and on his way to surpassing Jordan.

This is what I don't get with you guys. You guys ALWAYS make these claims and NEVER back it up. I have never seen anyone say anything to this effect but in your own bubble you see these things and then claim as if we all have that same belief. I for one think there isn't any way LeBron passes MJ.


There are many other factors to consider and advanced stats are only a piece to the puzzle. Many of these "Lebronites" are not even qualified enough to understand what they are even talking about and they look foolish when doing so. Just as you feel that Kobe fans are foolish when they make outlandish claims as well. I will say that IMO there are a lot more people on this site overrating Lebron than there are Kobe. Hope I answered all your questions.

I think I don't spend enough time on PSD because I clearly don't see these posts you're talking about.

69centers
12-16-2012, 11:27 AM
I'm so glad we won't have to see any more of his calculations.

Chronz
12-16-2012, 11:32 AM
I'm so glad we won't have to see any more of his calculations.

What makes you think you wont be seeing them? Couldn't you just ignore them like before?

Mr. Baller
12-16-2012, 11:33 AM
He is mad that he called Jeff Green the worst contract of the offseason