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View Full Version : How do you KNOW when someone is a choker?



Chronz
12-13-2012, 03:10 AM
Clue me in


Eddie Jones is my case example, he is thought of a choker by his teammates and his stats in the playoffs usually drop compared to his regular season. Thats a choker to me

SugeKnight
12-13-2012, 03:15 AM
See: James, Lebron 2011 NBA Finals

Mayweather&NYK
12-13-2012, 03:25 AM
when they wear a nets jersey and their name rhymes with shmerron shmilliams...

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-13-2012, 03:27 AM
See: James, Lebron 2011 NBA Finals

.

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 03:30 AM
What is a choker? I hate that term. I think it's the dumbest term there is in sports.

I think a choker is essentially the opposite of a clutch player, right?

Well a clutch player is someone who elevates his play in crunch time, not crumbling under pressure but rather having precise execution.

Thus a choker would be someone who continually plays sub-par, in relation to the players abilities, in key situations. Somebody who is clearly not wanting to embrace the moment or one who simply can't handle the jitters.

There is something that every single clutch player has in common. Mental toughness. Derek Jeter, Kobe Bryant, and Michael Jordan are 3 players who are probably labeled the top 3 most clutch players in sports. That being said, it's no coincidence that those 3 are also probably mentally the toughest.

Mr_Jones
12-13-2012, 03:30 AM
candy

waveycrockett
12-13-2012, 03:34 AM
remember that time when EVERYONE knew LeBron was a choker??? Yea....

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 03:34 AM
when they wear a nets jersey and their name rhymes with shmerron shmilliams...

I don't get how you can call out wavey and jmoney for trolling when you are clearly baiting.

Anyway it's true that Deron Williams has been extremely bad so far. I don't really like his personality, but he has a good excuse for his lack of production which is injuries.

As far him being clutch? I don't think he's clutch in the traditional way we think of. When we think of being clutch we think MJ, Kobe, Melo all getting the ball for the last shot and just running a simple ISO.

Deron Williams is not an ISO player. Deron Williams is a system player. That being said, he's clutch in his own way. In clutch moments he makes good decisions and makes crisp passes which sets up his players for easy buckets.

So no he isn't clutch in the fact that he will run an ISO at the top of the 3 point line and shoot the last second shot. But he is clutch in the sense that you can trust he will make the right decision and do it well, whether it be shooting or passing.

It's not fair to judge him as a player when he has a jammed shooting wrist which he continually re-injures and an ankle that needs cleaning out.

Sadds The Gr8
12-13-2012, 03:37 AM
See: James, Lebron 2011 NBA Finals

this. My fave moment in NBA history was watching him choke his *** off last year

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 03:38 AM
this. My fave moment in NBA history was watching him choke his *** off last year

He came up pretty big last year.

Why does seeing him crumble bring you so much pleasure? Do you hate the guy that much?

Guppyfighter
12-13-2012, 03:38 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv2jqFd2-qI


This is for the people who said Lebron choked.

waveycrockett
12-13-2012, 03:40 AM
when they wear a nets jersey and their name rhymes with shmerron shmilliams...

except when he's in MSG lol

MetroMan
12-13-2012, 03:42 AM
Clue me in

When they make a gurgle/vomit noise

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 03:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv2jqFd2-qI


This is for the people who said Lebron choked.

When I look at people who "choke", I don't look for the points scored. A choker can score a lot of points, and a clutch player can be clutch with limited points.

It's all about watching the game and taking everything into context. If a player shy's away from the ball and passes it everytime he gets it when he's clearly the star of the team, then that's a sign that he's not mentally ready for the moment.

If a player is getting good looks and playing freely like he normally does but his shot isn't sinking, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a choker.

Guppyfighter
12-13-2012, 03:46 AM
When I look at people who "choke", I don't look for the points scored. A choker can score a lot of points, and a clutch player can be clutch with limited points.

It's all about watching the game and taking everything into context. If a player shy's away from the ball and passes it everytime he gets it when he's clearly the star of the team, then that's a sign that he's not mentally ready for the moment.

If a player is getting good looks and playing freely like he normally does but his shot isn't sinking, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a choker.

What the **** does that have to do with the video? That didn't address anything in the video.

Mayweather&NYK
12-13-2012, 03:49 AM
I don't get how you can call out wavey and jmoney for trolling when you are clearly baiting.

Anyway it's true that Deron Williams has been extremely bad so far. I don't really like his personality, but he has a good excuse for his lack of production which is injuries.

As far him being clutch? I don't think he's clutch in the traditional way we think of. When we think of being clutch we think MJ, Kobe, Melo all getting the ball for the last shot and just running a simple ISO.

Deron Williams is not an ISO player. Deron Williams is a system player. That being said, he's clutch in his own way. In clutch moments he makes good decisions and makes crisp passes which sets up his players for easy buckets.

So no he isn't clutch in the fact that he will run an ISO at the top of the 3 point line and shoot the last second shot. But he is clutch in the sense that you can trust he will make the right decision and do it well, whether it be shooting or passing.

It's not fair to judge him as a player when he has a jammed shooting wrist which he continually re-injures and an ankle that needs cleaning out.

I was just messin around man... I think Dwill is legit when healthy :smoking:

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 03:53 AM
What the **** does that have to do with the video? That didn't address anything in the video.

I see that my point flew right over your head.

Your video was saying that LeBron wasn't exactly a choke artist, but more so that Dallas played him extremely well.

And I'm telling you that LeBron did in fact choke. The fact that he didn't want the last shot, the fact that he looked to give up the ball rather than create for himself or for others in key moments signals choke.

Now I'm sure Dallas game planned for LeBron, but to deny that LeBron wasn't his usual self is ludicrous.

Now if LeBron normally decided to give up the ball everytime he got it and shy away from being aggressive in crunch time then okay he didn't choke because that's who he is. We all know that's not the case.

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 03:54 AM
I was just messin around man... I think Dwill is legit when healthy :smoking:

oh :p

Guppyfighter
12-13-2012, 03:58 AM
I see that my point flew right over your head.

Your video was saying that LeBron wasn't exactly a choke artist, but more so that Dallas played him extremely well.

And I'm telling you that LeBron did in fact choke. The fact that he didn't want the last shot, the fact that he looked to give up the ball rather than create for himself or for others in key moments signals choke.

Now I'm sure Dallas game planned for LeBron, but to deny that LeBron wasn't his usual self is ludicrous.

Now if LeBron normally decided to give up the ball everytime he got it and shy away from being aggressive in crunch time then okay he didn't choke because that's who he is. We all know that's not the case.


What's the Heat's weakness? A big front court. Alright, Dallas had that. What is Miami the worst against? A zone defense. Yep, check again, Dallas had that.

Lebron made the right choice, he did the play that had a higher points per possession rating. Not being a selfish ******* who wants to play hero ball doesn't mean a player choked.


Guess where Dallas ranked at letting players get to the rim in that year? Yep, first. They didn't let players get to the rim at all, which is the style of play Miami strived on.

Guess the one team Miami can't beat in the last two years. Surprise, it's the ****ing Grizzlies. Do the math on that one and get back to me.

JC_
12-13-2012, 04:05 AM
this. My fave moment in NBA history was watching him choke his *** off last year

Oh the joys of being a Raptors fan. You know its bad when your fav moment has nothing to do with the Raptors or anyone associated with them lol

Sadds The Gr8
12-13-2012, 04:12 AM
He came up pretty big last year.

Why does seeing him crumble bring you so much pleasure? Do you hate the guy that much?

last year as in 2011 finals...

and yea. I wasn't the only one that enjoyed it...most of America loved it too.


Oh the joys of being a Raptors fan. You know its bad when your fav moment has nothing to do with the Raptors or anyone associated with them lol

yep. it's brutal. it only took 20 games for me to give up this year, and this was the most excited I've ever been for a Raptor season.

WhiteSoxGod
12-13-2012, 04:16 AM
dammit let me edit....

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 04:17 AM
What's the Heat's weakness? A big front court. Alright, Dallas had that. What is Miami the worst against? A zone defense. Yep, check again, Dallas had that.

Lebron made the right choice, he did the play that had a higher points per possession rating. Not being a selfish ******* who wants to play hero ball doesn't mean a player choked.


Guess where Dallas ranked at letting players get to the rim in that year? Yep, first. They didn't let players get to the rim at all, which is the style of play Miami strived on.

Guess the one team Miami can't beat in the last two years. Surprise, it's the ****ing Grizzlies. Do the math on that one and get back to me.

Oh so the angry man now gets my initial post, good job man!

1) You are not getting it. LeBron James in the regular season is not a man who gives up big shots. He's not a man who shy's away from the ball and would rather his teammate shoot it. He's a man who would rather drive and penetrate and be aggressive with the ball.

2) If Dallas was SOOOO awesome at preventing players from getting to the rim, do you mind explaining to me how Dwyane Wade averaged 26.5 ppg on 55% shooting against that vaunted defense? Don't tell me he did on jump shots.

Dallas played good defense, but LeBron did not even attempt to do anything with the basketball!

Even the guy who was guarding him knew LeBron was not himself.


Mavericks guard DeShawn Stevenson, who forced James into traveling in the fourth quarter on Tuesday, said James appeared to have “checked out” while deferring to Wade at the end of the game, which “helped us out.”

3) Look, the bottom line is LeBron James shrunk in the 4th. By shrunk I don't mean didn't score points, I mean he barely even attempted shots and that is far from the norm for him.

Again, I'm sure Dallas played great defense but are you trying to tell me no other team in the regular season, not even ONCE played great defense against him? He hadn't been that passive all season long, and now all of the sudden because Dallas has a defense that no other team can even touch, LeBron James crumbled?

LeBron James faced some of the best defenses. Boston, Chicago etc. If he is aggressive and can get his own shot off against some of the best defensive teams, there's no reason he wouldn't even attempt to try and take the game into his own hands against the Mavs.

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 04:19 AM
last year as in 2011 finals...

and yea. I wasn't the only one that enjoyed it...most of America loved it too.


If most of America murdered their family would you do it too? Don't use the "Oh yeah they did it too so it's not so bad" excuse.

Anyway, I don't understand the hate this guy gets. So many people say it's cause he's so immature and what not, and they fail to realize that hating him to that extent without even knowing him is just as immature.

Pardon me if I came across a bit aggressive, I just don't understand why everybody hates him so much.

AsiandudePH
12-13-2012, 04:20 AM
See: James, Lebron 2011 NBA Finals

Agreed.

And then LeBron James 2012 is the opposite of his choker-self.

el hidalgo
12-13-2012, 04:20 AM
they must first be a threat to kobe's false clutch characteristic

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 04:21 AM
they must first be a threat to kobe's false clutch characteristic

I'm a little confused, are you saying Kobe is not clutch?

el hidalgo
12-13-2012, 04:25 AM
I'm a little confused, are you saying Kobe is not clutch?

yeah, i am. what you gotta say bout it?

Sadds The Gr8
12-13-2012, 04:25 AM
If most of America murdered their family would you do it too?

yea, because that's the same thing as wanting an athlete to lose a game:facepalm:

I hate when people use those idiotic analogies


Don't use the "Oh yeah they did it too so it's not so bad" excuse.
that's not where I was going. you came at me like I had an obsession of hating Lebron James, when many people wanted Miami to lose that year.

I don't hate him as much now, but I definitely wanted them to lose in 2011.

Guppyfighter
12-13-2012, 04:26 AM
Oh so the angry man now gets my initial post, good job man!

1) You are not getting it. LeBron James in the regular season is not a man who gives up big shots. He's not a man who shy's away from the ball and would rather his teammate shoot it. He's a man who would rather drive and penetrate and be aggressive with the ball.

2) If Dallas was SOOOO awesome at preventing players from getting to the rim, do you mind explaining to me how Dwyane Wade averaged 26.5 ppg on 55% shooting against that vaunted defense? Don't tell me he did on jump shots.

Dallas played good defense, but LeBron did not even attempt to do anything with the basketball!

Even the guy who was guarding him knew LeBron was not himself.



3) Look, the bottom line is LeBron James shrunk in the 4th. By shrunk I don't mean didn't score points, I mean he barely even attempted shots and that is far from the norm for him.

Again, I'm sure Dallas played great defense but are you trying to tell me no other team in the regular season, not even ONCE played great defense against him? He hadn't been that passive all season long, and now all of the sudden because Dallas has a defense that no other team can even touch, LeBron James crumbled?

LeBron James faced some of the best defenses. Boston, Chicago etc. If he is aggressive and can get his own shot off against some of the best defensive teams, there's no reason he wouldn't even attempt to try and take the game into his own hands against the Mavs.

What, the first post is a complete disregard of reality. This creates a problem with your credibility. He passes out all the time to the open man.

Good job on selecting one player and ignoring the rest of the sample size vs basically every other team and player in the league. Really impressed. Clearly Dallas didn't have a good defense.

Number three is once again a complete disregard of reality.

Number four, this is how Dallas played it. Stop taking away credit from Dallas because you have an antiquated notion about basketball. When he had the ball, he looked at the rim, and analyzed the defense. He opted for plays he best felt would help his team.

It's due to how Dallas played him.

WhiteSoxGod
12-13-2012, 04:31 AM
When they wear #6 for the Miami Heat

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 04:53 AM
What, the first post is a complete disregard of reality. This creates a problem with your credibility. He passes out all the time to the open man.

Good job on selecting one player and ignoring the rest of the sample size vs basically every other team and player in the league. Really impressed. Clearly Dallas didn't have a good defense.

Number three is once again a complete disregard of reality.

Number four, this is how Dallas played it. Stop taking away credit from Dallas because you have an antiquated notion about basketball. When he had the ball, he looked at the rim, and analyzed the defense. He opted for plays he best felt would help his team.

It's due to how Dallas played him.

How many times do I have to say Dallas played great defense? Why do you only choose to read what you want to read?

LOL. YOU selected 1 player(LeBron James), and said the reason he didn't do anything is cause Dallas doesn't let the opposition drive to the paint. Why can't I bring up Wade? LeBron is better than Wade but they were able to completely shut down LeBron but then let Wade go off?

Really? When I said LeBron didn't attempt as many shots in the 4th as he normally does, that's not reality?

LeBron James in the 2011 Finals averaged 3.5 shots per game in the 4th.
LeBron James in the 2012 Finals averaged 4.5 shots per game in the 4th(1st 3 games)

LeBron James FG% in the 2011 Finals, 23.8%
LeBron James FG% in the 2012 Finals, 35% (1st 3 games)

The most telling stat?

LeBron James FT attempts 2011 Finals, 3
LeBron James FT attempts 2012 Finals, 13...and yes in 3 games.


http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/LeBron-Finally-Comes-Fourth0619.html

And to prove that his 4th quarter success wasn't just a 2012 Finals thing, here you go. LeBron had the 2nd highest PER in the league in the 4th quarter for the regular season.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/13850/lebron-continues-fourth-quarter-dominance

Okay now back to my original point. If Dallas' defense didn't allow Bron to penetrate, why did it allow Wade? You're gonna say "Oh way to use 1 guy", well you're using 1 guy in LeBron. I'm not saying the Mavs didn't have a great defense, what I am saying is that there is no defense in the NBA that can stop LeBron James, the only thing that can stop him is himself.

That's not a testament to how bad your defense is, it's a testament to how good LeBron James is. This isn't even about the Mavs, not everybody is out to get you. This is about LeBron James and how he is the only one who can truly stop him.

Here is another good read for you.

http://www.canishoopus.com/2011/6/14/2222836/anatomy-of-a-4th-quarter-lebron-james

As you can see, many times he had Jason Kidd, JJ Barea, and Stevenson on him at the top of the key. Are you seriously telling you don't think he can blow by them and draw the next level defender then dump it off for an easy bucket or shoot it himself? He didn't even THINK about doing it, he just passed it as soon as he got it and trust me that isn't because he's thinking "OMG DALLAS DEFENSE WTF AM I GONNA DO"

So in other words, if you're Spoelstra, would you rather LeBron pass it to Wade as soon as he gets it or rather him be aggressive and get to the hoop and try to make something happen? Obviously you'd rather have him be aggressive right? So why wasn't he aggressive? Because of the way Dallas played him?

If Bron had played how he normally does and still failed okay I can chalk that up to defense, but he was clearly not himself and if you can't admit that LeBron was in a fragile state of mind then you might be the biggest homer here on PSD.

DumDum
12-13-2012, 05:43 AM
this. My fave moment in NBA history was watching him choke his *** off last year

some guys are just get off on the strange things I guess:rolleyes:

RonE Coleman
12-13-2012, 05:44 AM
When they gag?

DumDum
12-13-2012, 05:47 AM
Agreed.

And then LeBron James 2012 is the opposite of his choker-self.

he had only one bad game in the finals in 2011, one bad game with the celitics the yr before that the magic and he lose to spurs in the finals with one bad game

How can a guy who only had 4 bad playoff games be a choker I'M SURE KOBE HAD MORE THAN HIS FAIR SHARE :cry::rolleyes::confused:

DumDum
12-13-2012, 05:49 AM
when they wear #6 for the miami heat

it will be a cold day in hell when the 49ers make it back to the superbowl;)

mizzacNYC
12-13-2012, 06:58 AM
Simple:

When its clutch time, 2mins left on the clock down 5 pts and the camera catches their face and they look like a deer in headlights CHOKER

vs

When its clutch time, 2mins left on the clock down 5 pts and the camera catches their face and they look like they're ready to rip ya heart out ya chest NOT A CHOKER

BALLER R
12-13-2012, 07:11 AM
How you close out a game in relation to how you played during the game. you can have 50 pts but in the final moments you miss your shots, keep turning the ball over or just look afraid. Then you choked. You could also be 0-20 but then in the final minute you hit the most important shot . This would have to happen more than once though so we know it wasn't a fluke.

BALLER R
12-13-2012, 07:13 AM
But you have to take the game into context. A clutch player could miss but still be called clutch.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 11:20 AM
See: James, Lebron 2011 NBA Finals

What am I seeing exactly? Does that mean James is a choker? Sounds kind of silly that hes a choker given what hes proven, this isnt 2011 anymore

Chronz
12-13-2012, 11:23 AM
What is a choker? I hate that term. I think it's the dumbest term there is in sports.

I think a choker is essentially the opposite of a clutch player, right?

Well a clutch player is someone who elevates his play in crunch time, not crumbling under pressure but rather having precise execution.

Thus a choker would be someone who continually plays sub-par, in relation to the players abilities, in key situations. Somebody who is clearly not wanting to embrace the moment or one who simply can't handle the jitters.

There is something that every single clutch player has in common. Mental toughness. Derek Jeter, Kobe Bryant, and Michael Jordan are 3 players who are probably labeled the top 3 most clutch players in sports. That being said, it's no coincidence that those 3 are also probably mentally the toughest.
Thats exactly how I thought of choking, as the opposite of clutch. Only I dont consider clutch to be solely within the final moments of a game. It could be an entire game or series.


The thing is, clutch play isnt a consistent thing, you may fare better than average one year and horribly another, for the most part you base your opinion of "clutchness" of any player on the average level of his career then right? So by that definition it cant be Bron, unless your saying he was un-clutch then hella clutch.

But I want to know about players who were CONSISTENTLY un-clutch, guys you could practically pencil in for sucking during big games/moments.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 11:28 AM
Eddie Jones is my case example, he is thought of a choker by his teammates and his stats in the playoffs usually drop compared to his regular season. Thats a choker to me

SteBO
12-13-2012, 11:32 AM
Thats exactly how I thought of choking, as the opposite of clutch. Only I dont consider clutch to be solely within the final moments of a game. It could be an entire game or series.


The thing is, clutch play isnt a consistent thing, you may fare better than average one year and horribly another, for the most part you base your opinion of "clutchness" of any player on the average level of his career then right? So by that definition it cant be Bron, unless your saying he was un-clutch then hella clutch.

But I want to know about players who were CONSISTENTLY un-clutch, guys you could practically pencil in for sucking during big games/moments.
In the NBA, you can't really do this which is why I consider choker/clutch to be silly media narratives to devert to when there's nothing else to discuss. You either play well or you don't. Ebbs and flows of sports.

LeBron in 2011 was a percieved choker after the Finals, despite the fact that he was as "clutch" as you could get in the previous two rounds. It switches on the fly, which is why you can't pay any attention to it. Just another myth to generate discussion......

bucketss
12-13-2012, 11:46 AM
last year as in 2011 finals...

and yea. I wasn't the only one that enjoyed it...most of America loved it too.



yep. it's brutal. it only took 20 games for me to give up this year, and this was the most excited I've ever been for a Raptor season.

my favorite moment was when rupaul started crying ahaha that actually gave me alot of pleasure.

#ImAHater

mightybosstone
12-13-2012, 11:48 AM
As previous posters have said, it's hard to determine guys who are unanimously considered "chokers." Everyone was so sure Lebron was one after the 2011 Finals, but they completely forgot how good he had been in the playoffs the first two rounds and in previous years. And he pretty much erased that memory by dominating the postseason last year. Also, look at his posteason numbers and anyone can easily see that he his stats are among the greatest postseason stats of any player in the history of the league.

But once guys' careers are in the books, we can take a look back and have a more accurate portrayal. Karl Malone is the perfect example. He and the Jazz went to the Finals twice, but sometimes, I feel like they made deep playoff runs in spite of him rather than because of him. And his postseason numbers tell the same story. His postseason TS% dropped more than 5% while his PER drops 12% and his WS/48 drops an astounding 32%. Also, he no showed in some pretty big games in his career and the Jazz failed to get past an inferior Rockets team in 93-94, because Hakeem was just a much better postseason performer than Malone was.

miller74
12-13-2012, 11:53 AM
When they choke, ask the 2004 Yankees

Money_23
12-13-2012, 12:10 PM
Wilt Chamberlain's choking resume

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

Chronz
12-13-2012, 12:19 PM
In the NBA, you can't really do this which is why I consider choker/clutch to be silly media narratives to devert to when there's nothing else to discuss. You either play well or you don't. Ebbs and flows of sports.

LeBron in 2011 was a percieved choker after the Finals, despite the fact that he was as "clutch" as you could get in the previous two rounds. It switches on the fly, which is why you can't pay any attention to it. Just another myth to generate discussion......

Im sure there are certain players who rarely have highs. Tell me whats Eddie Jones best moment?

Matrix3132
12-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Im sure there are certain players who rarely have highs. Tell me whats Eddie Jones best moment?

Maybe it's you overrating him?

I haven't thought about eddie jones in yeras and in reality, he wasn't good enough to be a "choker" in my opinion, his career numbers are something like 14/3/4 and he only averaged 20 pts/gm once, whats with calling him out so much? He wasn't anything special, just one of the best players on those mediocre laker teams in the 90s.

HesterJordan23
12-13-2012, 12:59 PM
:clap: People trying to justify Lebron's woes in 2011.. Don't post like you know how he plays and what he does. The dude came up short in the finals yet he came back the next year. 2011 lebron=choker 2012 lebron=champion. Lebron as a player though still doesn't have that fierce killer instict like kobe mj durant do. He can be clutch at times but he isn't clutch overall.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 01:11 PM
Maybe it's you overrating him?

I haven't thought about eddie jones in yeras and in reality, he wasn't good enough to be a "choker" in my opinion, his career numbers are something like 14/3/4 and he only averaged 20 pts/gm once, whats with calling him out so much? He wasn't anything special, just one of the best players on those mediocre laker teams in the 90s.

How can I overrate someone I think so little of?

I call him out because he choked harder than most I can remember. Thats just going off my gut feeling, no substantial analysis or anything. Perhaps Ive been too hard on him based on the last few memories I have him. So if anything Im might be underrating him, it just feels like he failed his teams repeatedly.


Put this way, Robert Horry is considered clutch because he delivers, hes nothing special on his own but hes considered a valuable role player because he has a proven track record of delivering.

If Eddie Jones was clutch, we would be having the same feeling about him. Instead hes a CHOKER, thus my criticism, its nothing new for him. His teammates have considered him a choker in the past.

ManRam
12-13-2012, 01:14 PM
When Skip Bayless says so!


But seriously, the notion of "clutch" and "choking" is the single most skewed sense of logic in the NBA. People have such a terrible grasp on it, and such a remarkably poor understanding. Selective memory really ruins it...and there's a total willingness to completely ignore any sort of relevant stat.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 01:46 PM
When Skip Bayless says so!


But seriously, the notion of "clutch" and "choking" is the single most skewed sense of logic in the NBA. People have such a terrible grasp on it, and such a remarkably poor understanding. Selective memory really ruins it...and there's a total willingness to completely ignore any sort of relevant stat.

Yeah, people are quick to label but not so quick to verify. Its all emotion based, you can tell by the lack of examples in this thread.

JiffyMix88
12-13-2012, 02:04 PM
last year as in 2011 finals...

and yea. I wasn't the only one that enjoyed it...most of America loved it too.



yep. it's brutal. it only took 20 games for me to give up this year, and this was the most excited I've ever been for a Raptor season.


And that just made me a little depressed :(

SteBO
12-13-2012, 02:06 PM
Chronz,

From what I remember in regards to Eddie Jones, arguably 2005 Playoffs Game 3 or 4, Round 2 @New Jersey. Outside of that, nothing really stands out. He's had some moments, but he was such a disappointment in terms how instrumental he was during the regular seasons, giving Dwyane Wade that 2nd guy on the perimeter that can do some damage. It left him in the playoffs, but that's my point. He's really the only guy I could point to in regards to "choking". But had he put forth a good series the following round against the Pistons in the ECF, would we still be calling him a choker, win/loss results withstanding?

Chronz
12-13-2012, 02:18 PM
So there are no chokers in your book?

Captain Moroni
12-13-2012, 02:21 PM
When his fingers are around my neck squeezing hard

SteBO
12-13-2012, 02:21 PM
So there are no chokers in your book?
No, because again, it can change year to year, series to series, and game to game. It's part of the "what have you done for me lately" society we live in now. I don't know if you agree with me or not, but after everything you witnessed from 'Bron in the 2011 postseason, would you have deemed him a choker? Did you deem him a choker?

hugepatsfan
12-13-2012, 02:34 PM
Usually they'll be gasping for air and grabbing their throat.

Matrix3132
12-13-2012, 02:43 PM
How can I overrate someone I think so little of?

I call him out because he choked harder than most I can remember. Thats just going off my gut feeling, no substantial analysis or anything. Perhaps Ive been too hard on him based on the last few memories I have him. So if anything Im might be underrating him, it just feels like he failed his teams repeatedly.


Put this way, Robert Horry is considered clutch because he delivers, hes nothing special on his own but hes considered a valuable role player because he has a proven track record of delivering.

If Eddie Jones was clutch, we would be having the same feeling about him. Instead hes a CHOKER, thus my criticism, its nothing new for him. His teammates have considered him a choker in the past.

Robert Horry was an average player that has made as many big shots as just about anybody. Eddie Jones is just one of hundreds of players to average 14 pts/gm for his career. I don't really see the point in calling out eddie jones because you somehow remember he was a choker when he was just some guy that most people remember for being a pretty good scorer, good defender on mediocre laker teams in the mid to late 90s.

The problem I have with the term "clutch" is that the stars have to align for you to even be considered "clutch". You have to play on good teams so that the games even matter, you have to have plays drawn for you, you have to have long rebounds just happen to bounce your way (a la robert horry), you have to have a long career, and many other variables that seem more circumstantial or random.

Many players go their entire careers without a chance at a game winning shot or the opportunity to take over at the end of an important game. If a player goes off in the second half and hits a game winning shot for a last place team in the regular season, no one really compliments you but if you play on the best team in the league and score 12 pts in the fourth quarter of a playoff game, you're "clutch".

BKLYNpigeon
12-13-2012, 03:13 PM
Rondo

Guppyfighter
12-13-2012, 03:13 PM
It's such an antiquated notion.

Greet
12-13-2012, 03:13 PM
Clue me in


Eddie Jones is my case example, he is thought of a choker by his teammates and his stats in the playoffs usually drop compared to his regular season. Thats a choker to me

Players stats are normally lower in the playoffs because of the competition they play.....

WhiteSoxGod
12-13-2012, 03:27 PM
it will be a cold day in hell when the 49ers make it back to the superbowl;)

Then Satan better get his snow boots on.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 03:32 PM
so we are labeling LeBron a choker for a bad series, despite ignoring his unreal playoff numbers over 115 games? Mkay then.

Joe Johnson continues to fit this for me. His complete drop in play when the playoffs start smells like a choker to me.

SteBO
12-13-2012, 03:37 PM
so we are labeling LeBron a choker for a bad series, despite ignoring his unreal playoff numbers over 115 games? Mkay then.

Joe Johnson continues to fit this for me. His complete drop in play when the playoffs start smells like a choker to me.
For the record, I'm not saying that LBJ was a choker that year by any means. But it speaks to my problem with labeling of players period. People conventiently forget his series' against the Celtics and Bulls to push their 'Bron hate agenda, where everyone on here was labeling him a "clutch" player. Then the Finals come and go, and you know the rest........

Greet
12-13-2012, 03:38 PM
so we are labeling LeBron a choker for a bad series, despite ignoring his unreal playoff numbers over 115 games? Mkay then.

Joe Johnson continues to fit this for me. His complete drop in play when the playoffs start smells like a choker to me.

It depends on how you define a choker. Do constant injuries = choking?

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 03:44 PM
It depends on how you define a choker. Do constant injuries = choking?

no. Why do you ask? Are you going to blame injuries for Joe's dropoff in 48 playoff games over 6 years? And 3 of those years, it was a fall off the cliff drop.

BULLSFAN0810
12-13-2012, 03:44 PM
When I look at people who "choke", I don't look for the points scored. A choker can score a lot of points, and a clutch player can be clutch with limited points.

It's all about watching the game and taking everything into context. If a player shy's away from the ball and passes it everytime he gets it when he's clearly the star of the team, then that's a sign that he's not mentally ready for the moment.

If a player is getting good looks and playing freely like he normally does but his shot isn't sinking, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a choker.



PERFECTLY SAID:clap:

Greet
12-13-2012, 03:45 PM
no. Why do you ask? Are you going to blame injuries for Joe's dropoff in 48 playoff games over 6 years? And 3 of those years, it was a fall off the cliff drop.

No....more about Deron. People are saying he's choking since coming to the Nets and the bigger market, but he hasn't been healthy since the trade.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 03:48 PM
No....more about Deron. People are saying he's choking since coming to the Nets and the bigger market, but he hasn't been healthy since the trade.

well, did you notice when Sloan left, his numbers went way down? Furthermore, I watched plenty of Nets games last year. He wasn't engaged a big portion of the time, shot too many three's, didn't attack, and just seemed to go through the motions. You can't blame injuries for the second half of last year, and this year. He went from having a strong case as the 2nd best PG, to not being a top 6-7 PG at this time. Took me a bit to drop him that far, but even with help, here he is again not playing well, compared to the Deron we knew 4 years ago.

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 04:18 PM
Thats exactly how I thought of choking, as the opposite of clutch. Only I dont consider clutch to be solely within the final moments of a game. It could be an entire game or series.


The thing is, clutch play isnt a consistent thing, you may fare better than average one year and horribly another, for the most part you base your opinion of "clutchness" of any player on the average level of his career then right? So by that definition it cant be Bron, unless your saying he was un-clutch then hella clutch.

But I want to know about players who were CONSISTENTLY un-clutch, guys you could practically pencil in for sucking during big games/moments.

I disagree. Clutch plays are plays that are made in crunch time.

That's not that easy to find. The easy answer is, everybody that isn't a star. There isn't a superstar in the NBA that isn't clutch, except for maybe Dwight Howard.

bucketss
12-13-2012, 04:21 PM
:clap: People trying to justify Lebron's woes in 2011.. Don't post like you know how he plays and what he does. The dude came up short in the finals yet he came back the next year. 2011 lebron=choker 2012 lebron=champion. Lebron as a player though still doesn't have that fierce killer instict like kobe mj durant do. He can be clutch at times but he isn't clutch overall.

aha i love durant but please don't put him with those guys:facepalm:.. what has he done to prove his killer instinct is better than lebrons? i guarantee you if he had kobe/mjs killer instinct hed be champion right now.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 04:45 PM
I disagree. Clutch plays are plays that are made in crunch time.

That's not that easy to find. The easy answer is, everybody that isn't a star. There isn't a superstar in the NBA that isn't clutch, except for maybe Dwight Howard.
If a player gos ghost for an entire series, he choked. Plain and simple. And I have a hard time believing everyone thats a star is clutch. If we are disagreeing on what constitutes choking/clutch then I dont think we will see eye to eye on who we consider a star.


Players stats are normally lower in the playoffs because of the competition they play.....
Without any heavy analysis, I doubt players normally suffer to that degree.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 04:49 PM
No, because again, it can change year to year, series to series, and game to game. It's part of the "what have you done for me lately" society we live in now. I don't know if you agree with me or not, but after everything you witnessed from 'Bron in the 2011 postseason, would you have deemed him a choker? Did you deem him a choker?

Put it this way, during any given game/moment Im sure they can look that way, but over their careers, there has to be (by default) a number of players who choke more often than the norm.


Bron has proven himself not to be a choker, if for nothing else other than me having a really low bar on what constitutes a choker. Someone I cant count on. I want the worst of the worst, Bron is too good to be that low on the anti-clutch totem pole.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 04:54 PM
Robert Horry was an average player that has made as many big shots as just about anybody. Eddie Jones is just one of hundreds of players to average 14 pts/gm for his career.
What exactly are you trying to get at here? Horry was an average player, Jones was an All-Star. Yet people remember Horry as clutch despite him being a lesser player. Thats what allows me to think of Jones (the perceived All-Star) as a choker.



I don't really see the point in calling out eddie jones because you somehow remember he was a choker when he was just some guy that most people remember for being a pretty good scorer, good defender on mediocre laker teams in the mid to late 90s.
Except when the playoffs start, thats when he became mediocre and choked, again IMO.



The problem I have with the term "clutch" is that the stars have to align for you to even be considered "clutch". You have to play on good teams so that the games even matter, you have to have plays drawn for you, you have to have long rebounds just happen to bounce your way (a la robert horry), you have to have a long career, and many other variables that seem more circumstantial or random.

Generally I agree with what your saying, its why I didn't want to narrow down the definition of clutch by just crunch time performance game to game but entire series/games. Even so, there are some players that make you question if it really is just random.

Greet
12-13-2012, 05:00 PM
well, did you notice when Sloan left, his numbers went way down? Furthermore, I watched plenty of Nets games last year. He wasn't engaged a big portion of the time, shot too many three's, didn't attack, and just seemed to go through the motions. You can't blame injuries for the second half of last year, and this year. He went from having a strong case as the 2nd best PG, to not being a top 6-7 PG at this time. Took me a bit to drop him that far, but even with help, here he is again not playing well, compared to the Deron we knew 4 years ago.

Even with help he is still playing injured. It's almost 100% curtain that he's going to need surgery at the end of this season on his wrist.



Without any heavy analysis, I doubt players normally suffer to that degree.

I would say the average player sees a drop off

SteveNash
12-13-2012, 05:01 PM
Nick Anderson, FTs are the best measure.

krisxsong
12-13-2012, 05:33 PM
If a player gos ghost for an entire series, he choked. Plain and simple. And I have a hard time believing everyone thats a star is clutch. If we are disagreeing on what constitutes choking/clutch then I dont think we will see eye to eye on who we consider a star.


There are very few superstars. I said superstars.

I think the general consensus(mine as well) is that the following 6 players are the superstars of the NBA.

LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Derrick Rose(obviously when healthy)

That being said, Howard is the only one among that group that you would consider to be non clutch.

Kashmir13579
12-13-2012, 06:35 PM
People can always redeem themselves. Lebron was, definitely, a choker. Now he isn't. Same thing with Dirk.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 06:38 PM
People can always redeem themselves. Lebron was, definitely, a choker. Now he isn't. Same thing with Dirk.

So Dirk was clutch, became unclutch, then became clutch again?

xxplayerxx23
12-13-2012, 06:42 PM
There are very few superstars. I said superstars.

I think the general consensus(mine as well) is that the following 6 players are the superstars of the NBA.

LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Derrick Rose(obviously when healthy)

That being said, Howard is the only one among that group that you would consider to be non clutch.

How the hell is Howard non clutch and Rose is? I don't think Rose has done something that Howard hasn't

Faneik
12-13-2012, 06:46 PM
When a team is in a position to win games, they rely on a certain player to close them out and he fails the team many many times.

Guppyfighter
12-13-2012, 06:49 PM
When a team is in a position to win games, they rely on a certain player to close them out and he fails the team many many times.

Sounds like the team didn't put that player in a good position.

Kashmir13579
12-13-2012, 06:56 PM
So Dirk was clutch, became unclutch, then became clutch again?

I don't know about all of that. He was perceived as unclutch for coming up short. Ironically at Lebron's expense he shed the title.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 06:59 PM
I don't know about all of that. He was perceived as unclutch for coming up short. Ironically at Lebron's expense he shed the title.

I dont understand, are you saying any time you come up short you have been un-clutch?

Kashmir13579
12-13-2012, 07:05 PM
I dont understand, are you saying any time you come up short you have been un-clutch?

Well, with Dirk, i'm talking out my arse. He's been in the NBA way longer than i've been paying attention to the intricacies. That wasn't my point anyway. I could've left the Dirk bit out.

Trueblue2
12-13-2012, 07:13 PM
How the hell is Howard non clutch and Rose is? I don't think Rose has done something that Howard hasn't

Hypothetically if both are on the same team and healthy who do you go to down 2? Give it to Dwight in the post (that's it he has position) and he's getting doubled, fouled, and he doesn't pass out of it, and he can't be counted on to hit a free throw. Give it to rose anywhere on the court and he'll create his own shot, teams won't just foul him, and they have to be aware of other players on the court.

Dwight's a great player and a game changer, but late in games his free throw shooting gives the opponent an easy out, with rose the opponent has to play lock down d and not foul because he'll make the free throws.

GiantsSwaGG
12-13-2012, 07:22 PM
Just watch T Mac play

Chronz
12-13-2012, 07:25 PM
Just watch T Mac play

Chronic Team overachiever

I dont get it?

Andrew32
12-13-2012, 07:46 PM
When I think of choking I think of Kobe in the 2004 Finals.
Worst choke of All-Time.

2011 Lebron also comes to mind but it wasn't nearly as bad.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 07:59 PM
When I think of choking I think of Kobe in the 2004 Finals.
Worst choke of All-Time.

2011 Lebron also comes to mind but it wasn't nearly as bad.

Great, now would you mind posting about the topic at hand?

Hawkeye15
12-13-2012, 08:39 PM
Chronz, does my suggestion of Joe Johnson fit the profile?

I really don't buy into the clutch/not clutch argument honestly.

Andrew32
12-13-2012, 08:47 PM
Great, now would you mind posting about the topic at hand?
I kind of mind. I have a bad headache. :(

A choker is someone who consistently plays poorly in playoff series or games when the season is on the line.

For example Nick Anderson choked in the 95 Finals.
He then proceeded to choke even worse in the 96 playoffs VS the Bulls.

That is choking.
His team needed him to contribute in order to advance and he came up empty.

Kashmir13579
12-13-2012, 10:09 PM
Chronz, does my suggestion of Joe Johnson fit the profile?

I really don't buy into the clutch/not clutch argument honestly.

Joe Johnson goes from bad to worse in the post season.

Munkeysuit
12-13-2012, 10:34 PM
No bigger choker's in this game than Carmelo Anthony, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant, Russel Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Deron Williams and every other All Star caliber player that has never won a title.
If you idiots want to still play that "Lebron elbowgate, choked in the playoffs in Cleveland" card till this very day? you immature ignorant wannabee sports fans better realize wtf you are talking about, don't be regurgitating the words all of you Lebron haters ate when the Heat won it all...unless you ain't got nothing better to do with your lives than to hate on someone who's 28 years old and have accomplished more in his young life than you will in a hundred lifetimes.

Munkeysuit
12-13-2012, 10:36 PM
I define chokers as any player that has never won a title...they choked at the biggest moment, in the biggest games for the biggest prize...if they never were there? then they were and are still chokers simply because they failed to accomplish what every team is built to do.

Chronz
12-13-2012, 10:56 PM
Chronz, does my suggestion of Joe Johnson fit the profile?

I really don't buy into the clutch/not clutch argument honestly.

Prolly. Dont see why not

BULLSFAN0810
12-14-2012, 09:54 AM
I define chokers as any player that has never won a title...they choked at the biggest moment, in the biggest games for the biggest prize...if they never were there? then they were and are still chokers simply because they failed to accomplish what every team is built to do.

I agree bro... But LBJ DID CHOKE...AND EVEN THOUGH HE WON THE SHIP IMO ....IT WAS A GIMME. IT JUST COMES OFF THAT WAY, IT FEELS THAT WAY... YOU GET MAN HANDLED BY THE MAVS, YOU COME BACK AND PLAY THE THUNDER AND IT SEEMED LIKE A REG SEASON GAME AS FAR AS CALLS WENT. HELL... IWANTED LBJ TO WIN BC IT WAS BAD FOR HIM MENTALLY, BUT I ACTUALLY THINK THEY GAVE HIM THAT ONE...30 SOMETHING YEARS OF BALL WATCHING AND I NEVER SEEN A PEDESTRIAN LIKE GAME LIKE THAT SERIES WAS. BUT YOU CAN BE A CHOKER AND WIN, THE TEAM OPPOSING HAD TO PLAY AS BAD, AND THE TEAM THE CHOKER IS ON LIFTS HIM.

JordansBulls
12-16-2012, 05:26 PM
Clue me in


Eddie Jones is my case example, he is thought of a choker by his teammates and his stats in the playoffs usually drop compared to his regular season. Thats a choker to me

Depends on how you view it? Are we talking once or twice or generally for a period of time?

bucketss
12-16-2012, 05:40 PM
I agree bro... But LBJ DID CHOKE...AND EVEN THOUGH HE WON THE SHIP IMO ....IT WAS A GIMME. IT JUST COMES OFF THAT WAY, IT FEELS THAT WAY... YOU GET MAN HANDLED BY THE MAVS, YOU COME BACK AND PLAY THE THUNDER AND IT SEEMED LIKE A REG SEASON GAME AS FAR AS CALLS WENT. HELL... IWANTED LBJ TO WIN BC IT WAS BAD FOR HIM MENTALLY, BUT I ACTUALLY THINK THEY GAVE HIM THAT ONE...30 SOMETHING YEARS OF BALL WATCHING AND I NEVER SEEN A PEDESTRIAN LIKE GAME LIKE THAT SERIES WAS. BUT YOU CAN BE A CHOKER AND WIN, THE TEAM OPPOSING HAD TO PLAY AS BAD, AND THE TEAM THE CHOKER IS ON LIFTS HIM.

the greatness of lebron made that whole series look like cake walk

GREATNESS

KNICKSTAPE 914
12-16-2012, 06:06 PM
oh :p

that was pretty questionable if you know what i mean

KNICKSTAPE 914
12-16-2012, 06:14 PM
No bigger choker's in this game than Carmelo Anthony, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant, Russel Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Deron Williams and every other All Star caliber player that has never won a title.
If you idiots want to still play that "Lebron elbowgate, choked in the playoffs in Cleveland" card till this very day? you immature ignorant wannabee sports fans better realize wtf you are talking about, don't be regurgitating the words all of you Lebron haters ate when the Heat won it all...unless you ain't got nothing better to do with your lives than to hate on someone who's 28 years old and have accomplished more in his young life than you will in a hundred lifetimes.

lol you sound pretty butthurt and it seems you have an unhealthy obsession with another man

tapajafri
12-16-2012, 06:25 PM
U don't really know

tapajafri
12-16-2012, 06:26 PM
I agree bro... But LBJ DID CHOKE...AND EVEN THOUGH HE WON THE SHIP IMO ....IT WAS A GIMME. IT JUST COMES OFF THAT WAY, IT FEELS THAT WAY... YOU GET MAN HANDLED BY THE MAVS, YOU COME BACK AND PLAY THE THUNDER AND IT SEEMED LIKE A REG SEASON GAME AS FAR AS CALLS WENT. HELL... IWANTED LBJ TO WIN BC IT WAS BAD FOR HIM MENTALLY, BUT I ACTUALLY THINK THEY GAVE HIM THAT ONE...30 SOMETHING YEARS OF BALL WATCHING AND I NEVER SEEN A PEDESTRIAN LIKE GAME LIKE THAT SERIES WAS. BUT YOU CAN BE A CHOKER AND WIN, THE TEAM OPPOSING HAD TO PLAY AS BAD, AND THE TEAM THE CHOKER IS ON LIFTS HIM.

Nope, it was not a gimme.

tapajafri
12-16-2012, 06:28 PM
this. My fave moment in NBA history was watching him choke his *** off last year

lol you must have some weird priorities and pleasures then :laugh:

Did you want to abuse yourself during the 2012 playoffs/finals when James had a monster postseason? Or were your feelings hurt so much that you turned into a coward and didn't even watch because you knew James was playing too well? Your favorite moment in NBA history was watching a player underperform in 2011? You're just strange, like you're an odd person. Are you okay?

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2012, 06:28 PM
When I think of choking I think of Kobe in the 2004 Finals.
Worst choke of All-Time.

2011 Lebron also comes to mind but it wasn't nearly as bad.

You had to sneak the first one in didn't you?

mjt20mik
12-16-2012, 06:30 PM
How do you know when somebody is a choker?

Their name is Lebron James. I kid I kid lol

bucketss
12-16-2012, 06:39 PM
How do you know when somebody is a choker?

Their name is Lebron James. I kid I kid lol

*insert gloria james joke*

bucketss
12-16-2012, 06:41 PM
lol you must have some weird priorities and pleasures then :laugh:

Did you want to abuse yourself during the 2012 playoffs/finals when James had a monster postseason? Or were your feelings hurt so much that you turned into a coward and didn't even watch because you knew James was playing too well? Your favorite moment in NBA history was watching a player underperform in 2011? You're just strange, like you're an odd person. Are you okay?

tbh i enjoyed it too and i actually really like lebron i just don't want rupaul holding a championship trophy what a disgusting sight.

KnicksorBust
12-16-2012, 06:42 PM
They are a choker when they consistently disappoint at the end of games and they have decrease in production in the playoffs.

See:

Webber
Malone
Ewing
Early KG

Meaze_Gibson
12-16-2012, 06:50 PM
For the record. Lebron did choke in 2011. They took Marion off him and would have guys like terry and Stevenson guarding him. Dude was refusing to shoot in the fourth. As a Heat fan , I don't and still don't understand why it happened but it mustve motivated him in some way.

I think everybody has a moment when they arent ready. It is what you do and how you prepare for future moments which build that clutch toughness.