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View Full Version : Do we fans/NBA front office stereotype NBA players/coaches??



dnewguy
12-11-2012, 08:12 PM
Do we characterize black players that are too passionate about the game as thugs ( Rasheed) Do we discriminate against white players as weak and not All-Star worthy? (Kevin love), Is it harder for average black coaches to get a job than white coaches? (Maurice Cheeks, Nate Mcmillan vs D'Antoni), do we devalue short players? (Nate and Boykins vs Joe Johnson, Kwame Brown etc)

What are your thoughts on how we characterize players because of their looks or height and is it fair?

chicago lulz
12-11-2012, 09:57 PM
Personally, I characterize players by production. I am under the belief of judging people individually, not because of their skin color.

I could see an argument made for height as that could play a role in a player's ability, but ultimately it is what they can do on the court.

asandhu23
12-11-2012, 11:54 PM
People believe what the media wants them to believe about a player.

dnewguy
12-12-2012, 12:52 PM
Personally, I characterize players by production. I am under the belief of judging people individually, not because of their skin color.

I could see an argument made for height as that could play a role in a player's ability, but ultimately it is what they can do on the court.

If it's about production, why is it that Nate and someone like Boykins were treated differently? I think Nate has been more productive for his teams than Joe Johnson yet Joe got a max contract and Nate could hardly find a job. Also, if Kevin Love is black wouldn't he be in the discussion as best player in the game? He is not even regarded as a franchise player.

NYK7Heaven
12-12-2012, 01:05 PM
i was just thinking this the other day about David Lee, putting up monster numbers and getting hardly any recognition, plus his team have been the surprise package in the West so its not like its a case of "Love type numbers on a bad team".
This season so far he has posted 19/3.5/12 on 54% shooting and hardly gets mentioned in a list of top 10 power forwards, Nowitzki is white so i don't get the stereotype against Lee

DenButsu
12-12-2012, 01:10 PM
i was just thinking this the other day about David Lee, putting up monster numbers and getting hardly any recognition, plus his team have been the surprise package in the West so its not like its a case of "Love type numbers on a bad team".
This season so far he has posted 19/3.5/12 on 54% shooting and hardly gets mentioned in a list of top 10 power forwards, Nowitzki is white so i don't get the stereotype against Lee

Although I agree that Lee should be getting more recognition, I don't think not getting noticed is a stereotype. I think it's probably more a product of not having a flashy style, and playing for a team and in a time zone that don't get much attention from the east coast media market.

JasonJohnHorn
12-12-2012, 01:26 PM
I think some people to fall into this catagory. I mean, 'Antoni has gotten three head coching jobs, two of them jobs that most coaches would kill for. McMillen had a great track record in Seattle and Portland and wasn't even called up. It does seem like there are more white coaches then there ought to be considering the ratio of black-players to white players, but that said, I think the the NBA has the most racially diverse coaching staffs in pro sports, so.... it's still a leader in the field of pro sports in that respect. I mean, 'Antoni was replaced by a black coach, and LAL hired a black coach when Phil stepped down.

As for players... I think European (not always white guys) get tagged with being 'soft', in part because their style of play focuses on shooting and passing, where in America bigs are generally coached to work the paint, in Europe they are taught to shoot and pass. I know, I'm only 6 feet tall, but that was as tall as anybody on my highschool basketball team save one guy, so I was always thrown at PF or C and coaches never encouraged me to pass or shoot, just rebound, defend and work the paint. I know, 6 foot center? but this is rural canada... we played an exhibition game against a highschool team from Detroit, and their PG was taller than our starting center... but for guys like Dwight and Shaq growing up, how many coaches do you think taught them to shoot? In Europe its different... but yeah, black athletes get a thug tag thrown on them unfairly somtimes (Iverson, Melo, MWP perhaps more deserving of that than some since they seem to embrace that), but I thinka t the same time gys like Garnett who are passionate don't get referred to as thugs. Nor does Kobe, nor did Jordan. So I think ti depends on how the player presents themsevles.

There are still racial issues in the league today, but things are moving forward.

NYCkid12
12-12-2012, 01:46 PM
If it's about production, why is it that Nate and someone like Boykins were treated differently? I think Nate has been more productive for his teams than Joe Johnson yet Joe got a max contract and Nate could hardly find a job. Also, if Kevin Love is black wouldn't he be in the discussion as best player in the game? He is not even regarded as a franchise player.

:facepalm:

Cal827
12-12-2012, 01:59 PM
I'm not sure if these cases (for the players) just have to do with the team.

For example, as been posted before, David Lee has been posting 20-10 at a fairly good rate for years, along with 50+% shooting and 3 or 4 assists per game. But nobody noticed because up till know, he's been on crap teams.

Another example of someone posting great numbers, but is underrated cause they are on bad team, is Al Jefferson. They guy also is about a 20-10 Center (which is extremely rare these days lol), but doesn't get the applause he deserves, b/c he's on the T'wolves/Celtics (when they sucked) and the Jazz.

As for Coaches, I think it just comes down to record.

And Yes, I agree that people devalue short players. Isn't right, but it happens cause in this league, a big man blocking the paint is desired over everything. Look at the drafts, where tall guys are picked over a lot of others (E.g. Thabeet, over Harden, Evans, Rubio, etc). This happened, despite everyone knowing that Thabeet was a complete project. Just Imagine that Memphis team, with Harden/Allen. The smaller guys are expected to fail quicker (or be blocked by every shot).

dnewguy
12-12-2012, 04:16 PM
:facepalm:

Well, I don't think Joe Johnson has ever been a difference maker on any team he's been on. He was basically a 3 point shooter in Phoenix. The Hawks are now a better team after he's gone which goes to show how overvalued he is.

Maybe I shouldnt have said Nate produces more for his team than Joe Johnson but Nate has been a difference maker in Chicago more than Joe in New York.

If Joe is Nate's height with the same production, would the Hawks have given him a max contract? Why can't Earl Boykins find a job even though he's still a better scorer than more than half of players in the league?

NYCkid12
12-12-2012, 04:35 PM
Well, I don't think Joe Johnson has ever been a difference maker on any team he's been on. He was basically a 3 point shooter in Phoenix. The Hawks are now a better team after he's gone which goes to show how overvalued he is.

Maybe I shouldnt have said Nate produces more for his team than Joe Johnson but Nate has been a difference maker in Chicago more than Joe in New York.

If Joe is Nate's height with the same production, would the Hawks have given him a max contract? Why can't Earl Boykins find a job even though he's still a better scorer than more than half of players in the league?

Because last 4 years Boykins was on an NBA roster he barely averaged 5 points a game...

Chris Paul is only 6 ft and has a max contract....

NYY 26 to 7
12-12-2012, 04:53 PM
Well, I don't think Joe Johnson has ever been a difference maker on any team he's been on. He was basically a 3 point shooter in Phoenix. The Hawks are now a better team after he's gone which goes to show how overvalued he is.

Maybe I shouldnt have said Nate produces more for his team than Joe Johnson but Nate has been a difference maker in Chicago more than Joe in New York.

If Joe is Nate's height with the same production, would the Hawks have given him a max contract? Why can't Earl Boykins find a job even though he's still a better scorer than more than half of players in the league?

You can't be serious with the height thing. Nate isn't on the same planet as JJ. Your going off this year only where Nate has been decent in a fill in role and your ignoring his past of awful shots, out of control game, and decision making. There are many reasons why height is valued (and I can't believe people have to explain why height is valuable in basketball) - getting off shots is one and but defense is perhaps the biggest. Short guys have gotten plenty of opportunity when they produce but there are things in basketball that simply are much more difficult.

As for the rest of the OP no none of it adds up to racist. Sheed was labeled a thug because of his on the court antics and technicals - this is beyond "passion". He also has well documented conflicts with temmates and got arrested for weed (not a big deal to me but others it is). He was never friendly with fans or the media either. So yes he held the thug label for a long time.

D'Antoni got that job and replaced a black coach and frankly neither one deserved that job. So you got me there on both of those hires but D'Atoni got it mainly because Kobe loves him and they were tired of Phil Jacksons demands. You will see more and more black coaches as former players are now really coming of age when the league really became predominately black. I really don't think this is an issue in basketball.

Finally Love is a 2 time all-star and Olympian. I personally think he is overratted but the masses don't think he is. Making the playoffs would certainly help his case. Its hard to hype a guy every year as a top 10 or top 5 player when he is putting up big numbers in losing efforts. Not racist its just when you don't win you don't deserve the media hype (which he gets a lot of anyway and has the proper acolades to go with it).

NYCkid12
12-12-2012, 06:39 PM
You can't be serious with the height thing. Nate isn't on the same planet as JJ. Your going off this year only where Nate has been decent in a fill in role and your ignoring his past of awful shots, out of control game, and decision making. There are many reasons why height is valued (and I can't believe people have to explain why height is valuable in basketball) - getting off shots is one and but defense is perhaps the biggest. Short guys have gotten plenty of opportunity when they produce but there are things in basketball that simply are much more difficult.

As for the rest of the OP no none of it adds up to racist. Sheed was labeled a thug because of his on the court antics and technicals - this is beyond "passion". He also has well documented conflicts with temmates and got arrested for weed (not a big deal to me but others it is). He was never friendly with fans or the media either. So yes he held the thug label for a long time.

D'Antoni got that job and replaced a black coach and frankly neither one deserved that job. So you got me there on both of those hires but D'Atoni got it mainly because Kobe loves him and they were tired of Phil Jacksons demands. You will see more and more black coaches as former players are now really coming of age when the league really became predominately black. I really don't think this is an issue in basketball.

Finally Love is a 2 time all-star and Olympian. I personally think he is overratted but the masses don't think he is. Making the playoffs would certainly help his case. Its hard to hype a guy every year as a top 10 or top 5 player when he is putting up big numbers in losing efforts. Not racist its just when you don't win you don't deserve the media hype (which he gets a lot of anyway and has the proper acolades to go with it).

This about Nate.. Very streaky and takes so many shots

The bottom line is the best players play , get on rosters, get paid... Race has nothing to do with anything .. Height is a factor in the nba but we've seen talent is the biggest factor

Vinny642
12-12-2012, 06:51 PM
Hell yeah people characterize players by size, skin color, and passion