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View Full Version : Could Bradley Beal be like Evan Turner



j-bay
12-09-2012, 01:12 AM
I've seen a lot of people already call Bradley Beal a bust. I remeber people saying the same thing about turner his rookie year. Do you think all he needs is time? I mean the guy is only 19.

kobe4thewinbang
12-09-2012, 01:13 AM
Yeah, give him time. He's struggling but even Wall hasn't come into his own yet.

xxplayerxx23
12-09-2012, 01:16 AM
Beal is solid, His shooting % is pretty bad now, but he is young and a little Raw, Wall coming back will help him, he is ganna be a nice player IMO.

Arch Stanton
12-09-2012, 02:54 AM
I don't get the comparison. Are you saying Turner = bust? And all the talk about Beal with his game suggests he'll become a Turner (or bust? Even though they play different positions) I would think that there are worst comparisons for busts.
And no... Give it time.

KnickaBocka.44
12-09-2012, 02:57 AM
I don't get the comparison. Are you saying Turner = bust? And all the talk about Beal with his game suggests he'll become a Turner (or bust? Even though they play different positions) I would think that there are worst comparisons for busts.
And no... Give it time.

they play the same position. Turner is a big guard but "plays the 3" because the have a glutton of SG's in Philly.

OP isn't suggesting that Turner is a bust, he is suggesting that Turner just took some time to adhust to the NBA because Turner is having a nice statistical season now, finally.

Hawkeye15
12-09-2012, 02:59 AM
I mean, Turner isn't very good.

Arch Stanton
12-09-2012, 03:02 AM
they play the same position. Turner is a big guard but "plays the 3" because the have a glutton of SG's in Philly.

OP isn't suggesting that Turner is a bust, he is suggesting that Turner just took some time to adhust to the NBA because Turner is having a nice statistical season now, finally.

He is? How so? He seems to be having an average statistical season.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-09-2012, 03:02 AM
Eric/Ben Gordon.

KnickaBocka.44
12-09-2012, 03:08 AM
He is? How so? He seems to be having an average statistical season.

He leads all guards in rebounding, is shooting a very, very good % from 3, has better than a 2:1 assist/turnover ratio and plays great defense. Very above average if you ask me, or most others for that matter.

Hulk6
12-09-2012, 03:08 AM
This was just a weak draft

topdog
12-09-2012, 03:12 AM
It looks like Beal might be starting to get it a little bit more in the last few games (based on stats). His PER is up, his PPG is up, his FG% is still lacking but he has stayed around 33.3% from 3pt range.

I think he'll be a nice starter in this league.

SeoulBeatz
12-09-2012, 03:16 AM
He is? How so? He seems to be having an average statistical season.

Well he got off to a horrendous start to the season (9, 7, and 4 through first 8 games), many in the Sixers forum were worried if he'd ever pull it together, but the past month he's really picked it up, especially scoring wise.

He magically found a jumper and is the Sixers best 3pt shooter statistically this season :speechless: and he's had his midrange game firing on all cylinders.

18, 6, and 4 in his last 11 games (while leading the team is FGA 8 of those 11). He's being given a bigger role on offense as the clear #2 option next to Jrue and he's been playing far past my expectations at the beginning of the season.

b@llhog24
12-09-2012, 03:17 AM
I mean, Turner isn't very good.

Yea, his "all around game" gives people the impression that he's really good for some reason. To his credit he has improved every season he's been in the league though and the season is still young.

dalton749
12-09-2012, 03:22 AM
this rookie class has been a little dissapointing so far. i was expecting a lot out of them but not many have showed up so far

topdog
12-09-2012, 03:24 AM
Per 36 minutes, Beal looks to be about as good as Turner statistically already. You can argue that both are still on rookie contracts and deserve more time. Beal has played 16 games for the worst team in the league with perhaps the worst coach in the league. I expect him to be much better by year's end.

Hawkeye15
12-09-2012, 03:26 AM
Yea, his "all around game" gives people the impression that he's really good for some reason. To his credit he has improved every season he's been in the league though and the season is still young.

well, its easy to improve upon a rookie season where you were garbage. What I mean is, Turner doesn't project as anything but a nice role player.

topdog
12-09-2012, 03:27 AM
this rookie class has been a little dissapointing so far. i was expecting a lot out of them but not many have showed up so far

I don't really think it was a "ready made" draft class. Davis (injured) and Lillard (4 year player) perhaps are the exceptions to that, but a lot of these top guys were seen as guys with great potential but no clear standouts.

Arch Stanton
12-09-2012, 03:27 AM
He leads all guards in rebounding, is shooting a very, very good % from 3, has better than a 2:1 assist/turnover ratio and plays great defense. Very above average if you ask me, or most others for that matter.

Average is 15 PER

Turner = 15.49 PER

Very above average seems to be a stretch.

Hawkeye15
12-09-2012, 03:30 AM
Average is 15 PER

Turner = 15.49 PER

Very above average seems to be a stretch.

sure, but his TS% is well under average, and he is meh, when it comes to offensive ratings.

SeoulBeatz
12-09-2012, 03:32 AM
Yea, his "all around game" gives people the impression that he's really good for some reason. To his credit he has improved every season he's been in the league though and the season is still young.

I don't know of many people who think Evan Turner's "really good". I think any casual fan either doesn't know who he is, or says he's a bust.

KnickaBocka.44
12-09-2012, 03:35 AM
sure, but his TS% is well under average, and he is meh, when it comes to offensive ratings.

He needs to work on taking less long 2's, if he does that then his TS% will increase plenty.

Arch Stanton
12-09-2012, 03:36 AM
sure, but his TS% is well under average, and he is meh, when it comes to offensive ratings.

So what does that make him? Average? Or less so?

Hawkeye15
12-09-2012, 03:39 AM
He needs to work on taking less long 2's, if he does that then his TS% will increase plenty.

yep, and increase drawing fouls on the drive.

Hawkeye15
12-09-2012, 03:40 AM
So what does that make him? Average? Or less so?

with his PER? It makes his average. He is a nice role player going forward, not a player who needs a sweet deal, or a player to gameplan around.

Knowledge
12-09-2012, 03:42 AM
sure, but his TS% is well under average, and he is meh, when it comes to offensive ratings.

Yes, and his 45% 3 point percentage is skewing things right now., along with his 52% from 10-15 feet. He has show a nice bit of improvement though (from being a rotational player to a legit starter so far this year). His shot selection stills needs improvement.

Still, a lot of 76ers nation can't help but be encouraged because of how bad it has been the last couple of years :laugh2:

Hawkeye15
12-09-2012, 03:44 AM
Yes, and his 45% 3 point percentage is skewing things right now., along with his 52% from 10-15 feet. He has show a nice bit of improvement though (from being a rotational player to a legit starter so far this year). His shot selection stills needs improvement.

Still, a lot of 76ers nation can't help but be encouraged because of how bad it has been the last couple of years :laugh2:

I have a hard time believing he will be a legit starter, unless he is masked as simply a playmaker.

topdog
12-09-2012, 03:47 AM
Yes, and his 45% 3 point percentage is skewing things right now., along with his 52% from 10-15 feet. He has show a nice bit of improvement though (from being a rotational player to a legit starter so far this year). His shot selection stills needs improvement.

Still, a lot of 76ers nation can't help but be encouraged because of how bad it has been the last couple of years :laugh2:

I never understood why the 76ers didn't take Favors especially considering how Brand wasn't working out.

Arch Stanton
12-09-2012, 03:47 AM
with his PER? It makes his average. He is a nice role player going forward, not a player who needs a sweet deal, or a player to gameplan around.

Yes with his PER. You mentioned his low TS % and the other item. Aren't they factored in PER? I think we're on the same page. My claim was I never understood the comparison of Beal to Turner. Turner doesn't spell bust like others.

Hawkeye15
12-09-2012, 03:49 AM
Yes with his PER. You mentioned his low TS % and the other item. Aren't they factored in PER? I think we're on the same page. My claim was I never understood the comparison of Beal to Turner. Turner doesn't spell bust like others.

Turner has a skillset unlike Beal, who is just a shooter (a bad one, never got the hype). Turner won't be a really good NBA player, but can be a nice role player imho.

Knowledge
12-09-2012, 03:53 AM
I have a hard time believing he will be a legit starter, unless he is masked as simply a playmaker.

What your definition of legit starter? Above that of a role player?

If he can keep his 3pt percentage respectable (which has been the result of the corner 3), continue to improve his FT rate/shot selection, and continue to add his rebounding with average defense. Currently, his FG% at the rim is at a career low. Plus Turner hasn't accepted what he is and is still trying to live up to the #2 pick.

Does he have star potential? No, not even the next step beneath a star, but he has shown signs this year of being a respectable starter.

b@llhog24
12-09-2012, 03:53 AM
well, its easy to improve upon a rookie season where you were garbage. What I mean is, Turner doesn't project as anything but a nice role player.

No gripes from me. I think he can be a spot starter on some teams or decent 6th man.

DeyAce
12-09-2012, 03:54 AM
He was drafted too high. They should have taken Robinson or Barnes

Arch Stanton
12-09-2012, 03:54 AM
Turner has a skillset unlike Beal, who is just a shooter (a bad one, never got the hype). Turner won't be a really good NBA player, but can be a nice role player imho.

I still don't get the comparison. Do you? I don't disagree with anything you've stated. Is it that they were both high picks?

KnickaBocka.44
12-09-2012, 03:55 AM
I have a hard time believing he will be a legit starter, unless he is masked as simply a playmaker.

I think he will definitely be a starter for the rest of his career. He is the kind of player I would love to have on the Knicks. If Shumpert developed into his form (minus the long 2's, keeping Shump's ability to get to the rim and draw contact) his re-emergence would make the Knicks a serious championship contender.

Knowledge
12-09-2012, 03:58 AM
I never understood why the 76ers didn't take Favors especially considering how Brand wasn't working out.

The GM at the time was under a lot of pressure to take the college player of the year. They chose what they thought was the sure thing as Turner was proclaimed NBA ready.

At the time, even I thought he would be better than what he has been.

Knowledge
12-09-2012, 03:59 AM
I still don't get the comparison. Do you? I don't disagree with anything you've stated. Is it that they were both high picks?

Yes, this isn't a fair comparison just based on physical tools and age alone. Beal has much more potential/room to grow.

Arch Stanton
12-09-2012, 04:01 AM
Yes, this isn't a fair comparison just based on physical tools and age alone. Beal has much more potential/room to grow.

He does? How so? Not saying I disagree.

c.c.
12-09-2012, 04:01 AM
I don't see star potential in neither of these guys no time soon.

KnickaBocka.44
12-09-2012, 04:03 AM
Yes, this isn't a fair comparison just based on physical tools and age alone. Beal has much more potential/room to grow.

In my mind he grows into a Monta Ellis type, at best. He doesn't have the height or length to be a very good defender at this level but I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being a high end inefficient scorer.

topdog
12-09-2012, 04:04 AM
I don't get all the negativity around Beal. He's only about 1 FGM and 0.2 3PTFGM a game away from having the same sort of numbers as the players he was most compared to in Ray Allen and Eric Gordon:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=allenra02&y1=1997&p2=gordoer01&y2=2009&p3=bealbr01&y3=2013

topdog
12-09-2012, 04:07 AM
The GM at the time was under a lot of pressure to take the college player of the year. They chose what they thought was the sure thing as Turner was proclaimed NBA ready.

At the time, even I thought he would be better than what he has been.

Still, the scouting reports essentially called him a "jack of all trades" - good at everything but great at nothing. Average athleticism, shooting, ect. I do understand that it was the "safe" pick (just like Wes Johnson was "safe" for the Wolves), but I thought it was very redundant with all the wings Philly had.

Knowledge
12-09-2012, 04:08 AM
He does? How so? Not saying I disagree.

Turner was a 3 year player coming out that was thought to be more NBA ready.

Beal is 19 and showed some production toward the end of his college career (can you have a career after 1 year?) that gave teams hope. Most time when you draft a teenager, you are projecting and drafting for upside.

Risk/Reward type pick that I can't blame them for. Though Drummond, outside of Davis, would have been the guy for me. I just believe in taking chances on big men (unless they are total stiffs) and seeing if they can develop.

Arch Stanton
12-09-2012, 04:23 AM
Turner was a 3 year player coming out that was thought to be more NBA ready.

Beal is 19 and showed some production toward the end of his college career (can you have a career after 1 year?) that gave teams hope. Most time when you draft a teenager, you are projecting and drafting for upside.

Risk/Reward type pick that I can't blame them for. Though Drummond, outside of Davis, would have been the guy for me. I just believe in taking chances on big men (unless they are total stiffs) and seeing if they can develop.

I'll give you youth and scenario. It's not fair to judge a 19 yr old after 20 games. And let's see how he plays next to Wall. But has Beal shown any flashes of greatness or anything that would suggest he's worthy of that 3rd pick?

GiantsSwaGG
12-09-2012, 04:30 AM
He sucks

SeoulBeatz
12-09-2012, 04:35 AM
Still, the scouting reports essentially called him a "jack of all trades" - good at everything but great at nothing. Average athleticism, shooting, ect. I do understand that it was the "safe" pick (just like Wes Johnson was "safe" for the Wolves), but I thought it was very redundant with all the wings Philly had.

It was the easy pick to make IMO. We didn't have a SG. Our starting 2 guard was Willie Green, backed up by Rodney Carney (lol).

It was the clear pick to make especially after just drafting the PG for future Jrue and Iggy was coming into his own at SF. We had Brand, Dalembert, Speights, Thad Young, and Jason Smith in the frontcourt. SG was a much bigger need than PF, and Turner was the consensus college player of the year. It was a no-brainer.

b@llhog24
12-09-2012, 04:36 AM
I don't get all the negativity around Beal. He's only about 1 FGM and 0.2 3PTFGM a game away from having the same sort of numbers as the players he was most compared to in Ray Allen and Eric Gordon:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=allenra02&y1=1997&p2=gordoer01&y2=2009&p3=bealbr01&y3=2013

Here you go.


Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Ray Allen 1997 1997 82 2532 14.6 .541 .494 4.7 11.0 7.9 13.9 1.6 0.3 12.8 21.4 109 110 3.3 1.5 4.9 .092
2 Bradley Beal 2013 2013 16 433 11.9 .479 .414 2.6 11.2 6.7 12.4 1.6 1.7 12.0 22.7 96 107 0.0 0.3 0.3 .032
3 Eric Gordon 2009 2009 78 2677 14.9 .593 .529 1.9 6.9 4.3 13.6 1.5 1.0 13.5 20.7 112 115 3.9 0.7 4.6 .082

Knowledge
12-09-2012, 04:42 AM
Turner was a 3 year player coming out that was thought to be more NBA ready.

Beal is 19 and showed some production toward the end of his college career (can you have a career after 1 year?) that gave teams hope. Most time when you draft a teenager, you are projecting and drafting for upside.

Risk/Reward type pick that I can't blame them for. Though Drummond, outside of Davis, would have been the guy for me. I just believe in taking chances on big men (unless they are total stiffs) and seeing if they can develop.

I'll give you youth and scenario. It's not fair to judge a 19 yr old after 20 games. And let's see how he plays next to Wall. But has Beal shown any flashes of greatness or anything that would suggest he's worthy of that 3rd pick?

No, he looks overwhelmed, but as you said, judging a 19 yr old so early is harsh. I would give him a off season too just to be cautious. Same with Rivers (who has been the definition of horrendous).

If there is no sign of improvement throughout the season, I would be worried. If there are none by the second year, I would be really disturbed and any criticism is fair game (if I was the gm, a fan, or related to either franchise in any way).

Alayla
12-09-2012, 07:46 AM
Still, the scouting reports essentially called him a "jack of all trades" - good at everything but great at nothing. Average athleticism, shooting, ect. I do understand that it was the "safe" pick (just like Wes Johnson was "safe" for the Wolves), but I thought it was very redundant with all the wings Philly had.

what wings? :eyebrow:
There was iggy.. thats about it.

Heediot
12-09-2012, 07:53 AM
No he has way more upside then Evan.

eddyv7
12-09-2012, 08:42 AM
:Dgive beal at least 3 full seasons before you call him a bust lets see if he improves year to year but if you guys dont want him the lakers would sure take him from you guys and mold him.

Swashcuff
12-09-2012, 08:55 AM
No he has way more upside then Evan.

Don't see it. Coming into the league Turner was seen as having franchise player type upside. There was no such claim for Beal.

I don't get the comparison for the mere fact that Beal has been given the opportunity to be a starter from day 1 Turner has been in and out of the rotation and only this season has seen consistent starter minutes and will continue to see them as well.

As for Turner as a player he is indeed above average and he's growing with every game, as is evident in his outside shooting and free throw shooting. He's still learning the game at an NBA level in the role in which he plays. He needs to take more advantage of his size and ball handling ability and attempt to get to the line at a higher clip (given that he's improved as a FT shooter) and most importantly be smarter about his shot selection.

2-ONE-5
12-09-2012, 09:05 AM
not sure of Beals situation but I dont think he is in a similar one to ET. ET was stuck behind Williams and Iggy for 2 years who dominated the ball. With them gone ET has flourished. Doesnt seem like Beal is stuck behind anyone and he certainly doesnt have the skill set ET has either. Regardless no player is a buss 20 games into their career and while playing without his Pg

Heediot
12-09-2012, 09:09 AM
Don't see it. Coming into the league Turner was seen as having franchise player type upside. There was no such claim for Beal.

I don't get the comparison for the mere fact that Beal has been given the opportunity to be a starter from day 1 Turner has been in and out of the rotation and only this season has seen consistent starter minutes and will continue to see them as well.

As for Turner as a player he is indeed above average and he's growing with every game, as is evident in his outside shooting and free throw shooting. He's still learning the game at an NBA level in the role in which he plays. He needs to take more advantage of his size and ball handling ability and attempt to get to the line at a higher clip (given that he's improved as a FT shooter) and most importantly be smarter about his shot selection.

Beal at 19 versus Turner at 21. If Turner at 21 was in last year's draft, do you think he'd be drafted higher then Beal? It's questionable and debatable. There was a handful of candidates for the number 2 pick and Evan would of probably be thrown in there. Beal at 21 and Evan at 21, who would get drafted higher?

I'm not claiming that Beal will turn out to be the better player, but his ceiling was higher during the drafting stage. However, Turner's floor was considered higher at this stage.

I think it's too early to tell because of sample size, but even for a guy who was considered a safe pick with a high floor Turner struggled in his first season as well.

I guess when I said Beal had way more upside, it was an over-statement.

Spiderman 1nner
12-09-2012, 09:57 AM
Absolutely, you can tell by his play at Florida that he was going to be a big time work in progress but eventually he would have superstar ability. He's very raw, I said when he declared for the draft that could be the biggest mistake of his career cus two more years in college under Billy Donovan he woulda won possibly a pair of national championships, polished his game, prolly win the best player in the nation award, been the number one overall pick and would not look as lost as he does at times. But yes I have no doubt in my mind this kid will be a star down the road

GrkGawdofWalkz
12-09-2012, 10:23 AM
I've seen a lot of people already call Bradley Beal a bust. I remeber people saying the same thing about turner his rookie year. Do you think all he needs is time? I mean the guy is only 19.

I totally agree. He's also a more undersized two guard. It's not impossible for him to find his rythm and excel. I hope so having drafted him in my dynasty keeper. Also his team isn't at it's full strength with lingering injuries to Nene and Wall. When Wall returns that could ease the pressure off of Beal to make shots and let him sync into the system more. Evan Turner is finding his game in year 3. So nothing is impossible. Mayo is 25 and finally looks like an allstar player.

ManRam
12-09-2012, 12:26 PM
Anyone that calls anyone a bust after 5-6 weeks of basketball is jumping the gun.

Period.


Beal's biggest strength coming out of HS was his shot. However, at Florida, his biggest weakness was his shot. So far, his shooting has been atrocious. It will come, as will the rest of his game (plus rebounder, slasher and defender at his position).

topdog
12-09-2012, 05:42 PM
Here you go.


Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Ray Allen 1997 1997 82 2532 14.6 .541 .494 4.7 11.0 7.9 13.9 1.6 0.3 12.8 21.4 109 110 3.3 1.5 4.9 .092
2 Bradley Beal 2013 2013 16 433 11.9 .479 .414 2.6 11.2 6.7 12.4 1.6 1.7 12.0 22.7 96 107 0.0 0.3 0.3 .032
3 Eric Gordon 2009 2009 78 2677 14.9 .593 .529 1.9 6.9 4.3 13.6 1.5 1.0 13.5 20.7 112 115 3.9 0.7 4.6 .082

I get that his shooting percentages are bad; but, as I pointed out, he only needs to make one more shot per game and one more 3 pointer out of every five to get his basic percentages on par and that will raise the advanced stats as well.

topdog
12-09-2012, 05:48 PM
It was the easy pick to make IMO. We didn't have a SG. Our starting 2 guard was Willie Green, backed up by Rodney Carney (lol).

It was the clear pick to make especially after just drafting the PG for future Jrue and Iggy was coming into his own at SF. We had Brand, Dalembert, Speights, Thad Young, and Jason Smith in the frontcourt. SG was a much bigger need than PF, and Turner was the consensus college player of the year. It was a no-brainer.

Hadn't Dalembert been traded at that point for Hawes and Nocioni? Anyway, from an outside perspective, I saw Thad young who had started his career at the 3, Iggy who could shift between the 2 and 3 and Lou Williams who may be listed as a PG but acts like and has size enough for the 2 spot.

The wings seemed fairly interchangeable in Philly's system i.e. a 3 can be a 2 and a 2 can be a 3. Brand definitely hadn't been working at that point (before Colllins and now he's amnestied), Smith was a backup at best, Dalembert either was already gone or at the very least not going to be re-signed. Favors was an athlete who looked like he could be either a 4 or a 5 especially on a team that is willing to put out small lineups and run.

Turner didn't seem to fit in as a non-athlete and as a guy who did not project to improve Philly's outside/mid-range shooting.

Catfish1314
12-09-2012, 05:57 PM
Less than 20 games into the season and there's bust talk for a 19 year-old already?

Beal turned 19 on the day he was drafted. Turner played his first game at age 22. So while the possibility of not panning out is always there, Beal has far more upside than Turner ever had.

2-ONE-5
12-09-2012, 06:12 PM
Less than 20 games into the season and there's bust talk for a 19 year-old already?

Beal turned 19 on the day he was drafted. Turner played his first game at age 22. So while the possibility of not panning out is always there, Beal has far more upside than Turner ever had.

why bcuz hes younger? it doesnt work that way.

topdog
12-09-2012, 07:39 PM
why bcuz hes younger? it doesnt work that way.

Because he has better athleticism and an elite skill (supposedly) to couple with that youth unlike ET who was supposed to be a seasoned all-around good at everything but great at nothing player.

2-ONE-5
12-09-2012, 07:58 PM
Because he has better athleticism and an elite skill (supposedly) to couple with that youth unlike ET who was supposed to be a seasoned all-around good at everything but great at nothing player.

what elite skill set does Beal have? hes suppose to be an Eric Gordon shooter type of player. Its Turner with the elite skill set not Beal

b@llhog24
12-09-2012, 08:50 PM
I get that his shooting percentages are bad; but, as I pointed out, he only needs to make one more shot per game and one more 3 pointer out of every five to get his basic percentages on par and that will raise the advanced stats as well.

One extra shot ain't helping his O rating that much.

topdog
12-09-2012, 11:12 PM
what elite skill set does Beal have? hes suppose to be an Eric Gordon shooter type of player. Its Turner with the elite skill set not Beal

Like I said, Beal is supposedly an elite shooter. He's not shooting lights out, but 33.3% from 3 and 87% from the stripe does suggest that he can adjust.

ET came out without any particular great or elite skill, but rather a perceived ability to do a variety of things well.

topdog
12-09-2012, 11:15 PM
One extra shot ain't helping his O rating that much.

I'm not an advanced stats expert so I don't know exactly what he'd have to do to get his TS% and EFG% where it needs to be, but he can start with improve his basic stats which are just 1 make (out if the attempts he already takes) and 1 more out of every 5 threes (out of what he already takes) from being on par with Ray Allen's rookie campaign.

2-ONE-5
12-10-2012, 12:14 AM
Like I said, Beal is supposedly an elite shooter. He's not shooting lights out, but 33.3% from 3 and 87% from the stripe does suggest that he can adjust.

ET came out without any particular great or elite skill, but rather a perceived ability to do a variety of things well.

ET's rebounding is Elite for his position. Im not sure why u think Beal shooting 33% from 3 suggests he can improve?

crewfan13
12-10-2012, 12:24 AM
I actually think a more accurate comparison might be James Harden. Many thought he was a bust after his rookie year, but he was given some time to develop into his role. That's what Beal needs. He has a good shot form, and a pure stroke. There's no reason he can't improve those shooting percentages.

topdog
12-10-2012, 01:52 AM
ET's rebounding is Elite for his position. Im not sure why u think Beal shooting 33% from 3 suggests he can improve?

As far as Turner, that's not what he came into the league promoted as. Elite skills came up when discussing why Beal has more potential. Further, Philly is not a great rebounding team 26th with Thad Young at SF (I know he plays PF too) also grabbing 7 boards a game. Since we are talking about defensive rebounds, I have a hard time attributing the numbers they are grabbing as wings to their own "elite" ability but rather to a combination of playing style and sub-par rebounding by the bigs.

Beal's shooting 33.3% means he's still efficient as far as Points Per Shot which is the same number as you get shooting 50% from 2pt range. He is a volume 3pt. shooter so it is encouraging to know that he can hit them at a decent rate even as he's not getting other shots down. His free throw shooting is another positive sign as it shows he has solid form (85%) and that he is dealing with the speed of the game and adjustment to the NBA versus having a flaw in his shot.

mrblisterdundee
12-10-2012, 02:04 AM
Evan Turner is bigger and more versatile than Bradley Beal. Considering how well Jordan Crawford is doing, I don't think Beal could even get the time in the foreseeable future to be as active as Turner.

Alayla
12-10-2012, 02:21 AM
As far as Turner, that's not what he came into the league promoted as. Elite skills came up when discussing why Beal has more potential. Further, Philly is not a great rebounding team 26th with Thad Young at SF (I know he plays PF too) also grabbing 7 boards a game. Since we are talking about defensive rebounds, I have a hard time attributing the numbers they are grabbing as wings to their own "elite" ability but rather to a combination of playing style and sub-par rebounding by the bigs.

Beal's shooting 33.3% means he's still efficient as far as Points Per Shot which is the same number as you get shooting 50% from 2pt range. He is a volume 3pt. shooter so it is encouraging to know that he can hit them at a decent rate even as he's not getting other shots down. His free throw shooting is another positive sign as it shows he has solid form (85%) and that he is dealing with the speed of the game and adjustment to the NBA versus having a flaw in his shot.

thad never plays any SF

topdog
12-10-2012, 04:13 AM
thad never plays any SF

None? I remember he did when he first came into the league and ESPN still have him listed as SF. Regardless, my point is that I don't think you can call a guy an elite rebounder at his position when his team doesn't rebound.

The 76ers are 19th in the league in rebounding and their point guard averages nearly 4 a game (and more offensive rebounds than ET). Dorell Wright averages the same number of rebounds per minute as Turner. He is not an elite rebounder, rather he is a player on a small-ball team who is playing a lot of minutes comparatively.

topdog
12-10-2012, 04:19 AM
Evan Turner is bigger and more versatile than Bradley Beal. Considering how well Jordan Crawford is doing, I don't think Beal could even get the time in the foreseeable future to be as active as Turner.

Jordan Crawford is not good. Beal is the future and will get minutes. Beal is more athletic than Turner and is performing better overall than ET in his rookie year (not that that is saying much).

SeoulBeatz
12-10-2012, 04:37 AM
None? I remember he did when he first came into the league and ESPN still have him listed as SF. Regardless, my point is that I don't think you can call a guy an elite rebounder at his position when his team doesn't rebound.

The 76ers are 19th in the league in rebounding and their point guard averages nearly 4 a game (and more offensive rebounds than ET). Dorell Wright averages the same number of rebounds per minute as Turner. He is not an elite rebounder, rather he is a player on a small-ball team who is playing a lot of minutes comparatively.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't turner set the NBA record last season for rebounding rate for a guard?

That has to mean a little something.

edit: it was DRB%, but still, it was a record :)

topdog
12-10-2012, 05:33 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't turner set the NBA record last season for rebounding rate for a guard?

That has to mean a little something.

edit: it was DRB%, but still, it was a record :)

:laugh2: Yes, records are nice, but I have a hard time calling someone an elite rebounder when his offensive rebounding rate is barely better than O.J. Mayo. That 20% defensive rebound rate is huge, but also very fishy.

Alayla
12-10-2012, 07:28 PM
None? I remember he did when he first came into the league and ESPN still have him listed as SF. Regardless, my point is that I don't think you can call a guy an elite rebounder at his position when his team doesn't rebound.

The 76ers are 19th in the league in rebounding and their point guard averages nearly 4 a game (and more offensive rebounds than ET). Dorell Wright averages the same number of rebounds per minute as Turner. He is not an elite rebounder, rather he is a player on a small-ball team who is playing a lot of minutes comparatively.

dont get me wrong i argee with u on that but Thad hasn't played SF in a few years now he has gotten bigger and is an undersized PF.
nothing personal or anything but it always has buged me when people assume he is a SF or assume he can be pluged in there he never had perimeter skills to begin with outside of and average jumper and improves his post skills every year he is a low post scapper a 2nd chance points kind of guy any 3 that was in his game is just about gone.

Alayla
12-10-2012, 07:32 PM
:laugh2: Yes, records are nice, but I have a hard time calling someone an elite rebounder when his offensive rebounding rate is barely better than O.J. Mayo. That 20% defensive rebound rate is huge, but also very fishy.

I understand why its hard to belive turner is an elitle rebounder im not sold on that prospect myself but please wacth our team for a few games turner isnt just pulling long rebounds becuase our bigs are missing them like you seem to be implying he is jumping up near the rim and pulling them down more often then not to the point you can hear his hands smack the ball on his way down hes a tough kid and i belive he would be at or above 5 RPG on just about any NBA team.

topdog
12-10-2012, 08:11 PM
dont get me wrong i argee with u on that but Thad hasn't played SF in a few years now he has gotten bigger and is an undersized PF.
nothing personal or anything but it always has buged me when people assume he is a SF or assume he can be pluged in there he never had perimeter skills to begin with outside of and average jumper and improves his post skills every year he is a low post scapper a 2nd chance points kind of guy any 3 that was in his game is just about gone.

Fair enough. My intel is old on Young. I will have to watch come more games as I did like Young as a draft prospect. Maybe I'll wait a little bit until Moultrie gets some more PT - I think he can be a very good player down the road.


I understand why its hard to belive turner is an elitle rebounder im not sold on that prospect myself but please wacth our team for a few games turner isnt just pulling long rebounds becuase our bigs are missing them like you seem to be implying he is jumping up near the rim and pulling them down more often then not to the point you can hear his hands smack the ball on his way down hes a tough kid and i belive he would be at or above 5 RPG on just about any NBA team.

I'm not saying it doesn't take effort or talent to get those rebounds, I just think it's too much to call it an "elite skill." I know I seem to be attacking ET, but I do think he's a decent player. I'm simply combating this notion that Beal is similar and am stating that I personally did not see him as worthy of the #2 pick. I feel like a better comparison is Derrick Williams and Evan Turner.

2-ONE-5
12-11-2012, 12:02 AM
How wasnt ET worthy of the 2nd pick? he won both POY awards at OSU...

Derrick Williams was overrated. Dude was almost cut from Zona and overachieved for a year on a good team.

Wolfman01
12-11-2012, 12:31 AM
Playing for the Wizards right now is probably the worst thing right now. Bradley Beal is a rookie and I understand that he is young and he will struggle and have a hard time ajusting to the NBA. The 76ers have a lot of good players on their squad and Evan Turner is finally getting a shot at the wing after the 76ers traded Iggy. The 76ers are also giving Turner a lot of minutes to play too. The Wizards are pretty much forcing Beal to become a good player and giving him 27 minutes a game and letting him start every game over Crawford. Crawford is the Wizards best player at the moment since Wall is out.

topdog
12-11-2012, 12:44 AM
How wasnt ET worthy of the 2nd pick? he won both POY awards at OSU...

Derrick Williams was overrated. Dude was almost cut from Zona and overachieved for a year on a good team.

So did J.J. Redick.

Like I have been saying, he didn't have an elite skill and I did not see anything about him which suggested he would be anything more than a decent player. Derrick Favors, on the other hand, had the stats and elite measurements (size and athleticism) to suggest he could be a very good NBA player.

Derrick Williams was no more overrated than Turner. Both struggled a bit their first two years (Williams' is still ongoing) adjusting and playing behind an all-star. Their stat lines are not overly dissimilar with Williams seeming to have the overall edge:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=turneev01&y1=2012&p2=willide02&y2=2013

Alayla
12-11-2012, 05:24 AM
So did J.J. Redick.

Like I have been saying, he didn't have an elite skill and I did not see anything about him which suggested he would be anything more than a decent player. Derrick Favors, on the other hand, had the stats and elite measurements (size and athleticism) to suggest he could be a very good NBA player.

Derrick Williams was no more overrated than Turner. Both struggled a bit their first two years (Williams' is still ongoing) adjusting and playing behind an all-star. Their stat lines are not overly dissimilar with Williams seeming to have the overall edge:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=turneev01&y1=2012&p2=willide02&y2=2013

I like the comparison but i feel Williams will be a force one day he is just the type of player who will need to be traded then given free reign at his natural position to do so and i do believe that position to be the 4.
I guess what im saying is his ceiling is much greater than Turners.

As for derrick favors there are reasons we didnt pick him
1. Brand
2. Gaping whole at the 2
3. Turner being the favorite to go number 2 put pressure on the F/O
4. Favors was raw and seen as a huge risk

albertajaysfan
12-11-2012, 05:44 AM
Beal will be fine. For the fans of the Wizards' sake I hope it happens before they trade him away because they have been forced to blow up their team again.

That organization makes the Raptors look like the Lakers for crying out loud.

xILLN355
12-11-2012, 05:45 AM
i have spencer hawes and bradley beal in my fantasy team and need to drop one, who do you guys think i should drop?

2-ONE-5
12-11-2012, 08:40 AM
So did J.J. Redick.

Like I have been saying, he didn't have an elite skill and I did not see anything about him which suggested he would be anything more than a decent player. Derrick Favors, on the other hand, had the stats and elite measurements (size and athleticism) to suggest he could be a very good NBA player.

Derrick Williams was no more overrated than Turner. Both struggled a bit their first two years (Williams' is still ongoing) adjusting and playing behind an all-star. Their stat lines are not overly dissimilar with Williams seeming to have the overall edge:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=turneev01&y1=2012&p2=willide02&y2=2013


Favors still hasnt shown much in the league...

Assuming Bynum does come back to the Sixers then Turner is more valuable to the team then Favors would be

topdog
12-11-2012, 04:41 PM
I like the comparison but i feel Williams will be a force one day he is just the type of player who will need to be traded then given free reign at his natural position to do so and i do believe that position to be the 4.
I guess what im saying is his ceiling is much greater than Turners.

As for derrick favors there are reasons we didnt pick him
1. Brand
2. Gaping whole at the 2
3. Turner being the favorite to go number 2 put pressure on the F/O
4. Favors was raw and seen as a huge risk

Honestly it's so hard for me to tell what Williams will be once he finally moves on. His size its going to always present a certain sort of difficulty and he'll have to learn to make match-ups favorable to himself by developing his perimeter and driving skills to a much higher level.

As for the 2010 draft, I guess I just saw it from a different perspective. To me, it was:

1. Brand can't keep up with the offense and its athletic wings.
2. Lou can play the 2 or the Sixers find someone who will fit tempo (Turner slows them imo)
3. Turner was the concensus 2 and the Wolves supposedly wanted him badly. New Jersey was not particularly attached to their pick so maybe something could have happened there :shrug:
4. Favors was raw but seemed to have a great attitude and measurements similar to Dwight Howard as a rookie. He was more-or-less the concensus 3rd pick so it's not as big of a risk as other drafts.

pd7631
12-11-2012, 04:48 PM
Honestly it's so hard for me to tell what Williams will be once he finally moves on. His size its going to always present a certain sort of difficulty and he'll have to learn to make match-ups favorable to himself by developing his perimeter and driving skills to a much higher level.

As for the 2010 draft, I guess I just saw it from a different perspective. To me, it was:

1. Brand can't keep up with the offense and its athletic wings.
2. Lou can play the 2 or the Sixers find someone who will fit tempo (Turner slows them imo)
3. Turner was the concensus 2 and the Wolves supposedly wanted him badly. New Jersey was not particularly attached to their pick so maybe something could have happened there :shrug:
4. Favors was raw but seemed to have a great attitude and measurements similar to Dwight Howard as a rookie. He was more-or-less the concensus 3rd pick so it's not as big of a risk as other drafts.


Turner is a better athlete than most people realize, and he actually helps the Sixers play more uptempo. The kid grabs an insane amount of rebounds for a guard and pushes the fastbreak better than anyone else on the team. There's a reason why Doug Collins likened him to Magic Johnson when he has the ball in his hands.

topdog
12-11-2012, 04:49 PM
Favors still hasnt shown much in the league...

Assuming Bynum does come back to the Sixers then Turner is more valuable to the team then Favors would be

That first statement is debatable. He's been limited to essentially the same 20 minutes in the 3 years he's played because of a logjam at PF/C, yet he's improved his stats and PER each year. He's not so much a role player as a player forced into a role.

There are too many ifs and buts associated with Bynum and Favors in-so-far as who knows if that trade even goes down with Favors in Philly?

For all we know, the 76ers could quite easily have ended up looking like:

Favors
Young
Iggy
Mayo (sign summer 2012)
Holiday

pd7631
12-11-2012, 04:51 PM
:laugh2: Yes, records are nice, but I have a hard time calling someone an elite rebounder when his offensive rebounding rate is barely better than O.J. Mayo. That 20% defensive rebound rate is huge, but also very fishy.

Why should he be trying to hit the offensive glass so hard? He's a perimeter player, if he's in crashing the offensive glass then the Sixers are gonna get beat down the floor by the opposition. There's nothing fishy about his rebounding....he's the best rebounding guard I've ever seen.

topdog
12-11-2012, 04:51 PM
Turner is a better athlete than most people realize, and he actually helps the Sixers play more uptempo. The kid grabs an insane amount of rebounds for a guard and pushes the fastbreak better than anyone else on the team. There's a reason why Doug Collins likened him to Magic Johnson when he has the ball in his hands.

In years past, I was worried when my Wolves played 2 teams in particular - Philly and Memphis. Why? Because they turned teams over and got up and down the floor.

I'm not saying Turner is unathletic or that he isn't a good rebounder, but I do feel like their speed and ability to turn guys over has fallen off. Admittedly, I might be pinning too much of that on ET.

topdog
12-11-2012, 04:55 PM
Why should he be trying to hit the offensive glass so hard? He's a perimeter player, if he's in crashing the offensive glass then the Sixers are gonna get beat down the floor by the opposition. There's nothing fishy about his rebounding....he's the best rebounding guard I've ever seen.

What's fishy is that the bigs aren't grabbing rebounds. Defensive rebounding numbers are hard to decipher in a stat in that many of them are "freebies" for the defense and also in that ET's man is probably already getting back on defense as guards are supposed to. So, who is heading down to start the early O if not Turner?

Mind you, I was arguing against rebounding being an "elite skill" of Turner's not that he wasn't good at it.

pd7631
12-11-2012, 04:57 PM
That first statement is debatable. He's been limited to essentially the same 20 minutes in the 3 years he's played because of a logjam at PF/C, yet he's improved his stats and PER each year. He's not so much a role player as a player forced into a role.

There are too many ifs and buts associated with Bynum and Favors in-so-far as who knows if that trade even goes down with Favors in Philly?

For all we know, the 76ers could quite easily have ended up looking like:

Favors
Young
Iggy
Mayo (sign summer 2012)
Holiday

Getting rid of Iggy was the best thing to happen to the Sixers. ET is already outplaying him this year while the Sixers are having more success than the Nuggets. You would think that the All Star/Olympian would be light years ahead of a kid who is getting significant playing time for the first time in his career, but it's the opposite. Iggy took the ball out of Jrue and Evan's hands and now that he's gone, we're reaping the benefits of his absence. Clearly our defense hasn't suffered much in Iggy's absence either, as we're allowing the fewest points in the NBA.

Evan Turner is just starting to scratch the surface.

FeltonYaMotha
12-11-2012, 05:08 PM
I've seen a lot of people already call Bradley Beal a bust. I remeber people saying the same thing about turner his rookie year. Do you think all he needs is time? I mean the guy is only 19.

Wouldn't be a bad thing if he was. Turner's finally starting to break out this year with Iggy out of the picture. Definitely need to wait until Wall comes back before we can start calling him a bust. He's been picking it up as of late, scored in double digits 7 out of the last 10 games. I think it's more of the rookie jitters than him not being able to progress to the NBA.

topdog
12-11-2012, 05:18 PM
Getting rid of Iggy was the best thing to happen to the Sixers. ET is already outplaying him this year while the Sixers are having more success than the Nuggets. You would think that the All Star/Olympian would be light years ahead of a kid who is getting significant playing time for the first time in his career, but it's the opposite. Iggy took the ball out of Jrue and Evan's hands and now that he's gone, we're reaping the benefits of his absence. Clearly our defense hasn't suffered much in Iggy's absence either, as we're allowing the fewest points in the NBA.

Evan Turner is just starting to scratch the surface.

Iguodala is not having a great year, nor is Denver. Turner is outplaying AI so far. Fair points, but far from the entire picture. Turner is settling into a larger role on his same team while AI is developing a new role on a new team. I definitely understand if Philly didn't want to pay Iguodala what he was making, but that still doesn't change my opinion of Favors being a better choice.

As for the defense, Philly is no longer giving up the fewest points but rather is tied for 7th fewest with a negative 1.7 point differential. More importantly, the team's defensive rating is 12th when accounting for pace of play. Conversely, last year's Philly team was 3rd in both points per game given up and defensive rating and had a positive point differential of 4.2

pd7631
12-11-2012, 05:40 PM
Iguodala is not having a great year, nor is Denver. Turner is outplaying AI so far. Fair points, but far from the entire picture. Turner is settling into a larger role on his same team while AI is developing a new role on a new team. I definitely understand if Philly didn't want to pay Iguodala what he was making, but that still doesn't change my opinion of Favors being a better choice.

As for the defense, Philly is no longer giving up the fewest points but rather is tied for 7th fewest with a negative 1.7 point differential. More importantly, the team's defensive rating is 12th when accounting for pace of play. Conversely, last year's Philly team was 3rd in both points per game given up and defensive rating and had a positive point differential of 4.2

First, the Sixers have just 5 players on the team this year that were here last year. Evan Turner has had to make a huge adjustment as well. His role has changed, almost all of his teammates have changed, and he hasn't been in the league nearly as long as Iggy. I'm not giving that excuse to Iggy.....ET has replaced his production and then some.

Secondly, yeah you're right, I didn't go all that in depth with checking the numbers. But I can assure you that the slip in defense has FAR more to do with the loss of Elton Brand than with Andre Iguodala. Our bigs don't have a clue how to play help defense, and nobody has the ability to alter shots at the rim.

I've gotten away from PSD for quite awhile(purposely), so I have an insane amount of thoughts on this subject/the Sixers in general, and it's probably better for me to just get out now before I get too worked up lol. I've enjoyed watching the Sixers/basketball much more now that I don't worry(usually) about what the general public thinks.

All I want to say is...

-Evan Turner is becoming the player I knew he would be, and I couldn't be happier to have him on my team. I never gave up on him, I never will. My expectations for him are the same as the day we drafted him. He has an "it" factor that I haven't seen on the Sixers for quite awhile.

-At the same time, Andre Iguodala getting shipped out has made me just as happy as the play of Evan Turner. There have been numerous times that Sixers beat writers have said that Iguodala's personality was bringing the team down as much as anything else was. A clear example of "addition by subtraction". Even if Bynum never plays a minute for the Sixers, the trade was good.

pd7631
12-11-2012, 05:45 PM
One last thing...

to any Sixer fans viewing this thread, I miss talking about the team with you guys, but until at least one person is banned or otherwise not posting anymore, I can't bring myself to go back to the forum. I honestly don't know how some of you put up with it anymore. Anyone want to just annex the Hawks forum or some other team that has no fans on here as our own and discuss the Sixers there?

tnewkirk
12-11-2012, 05:52 PM
beal is 19, give him some time.

2-ONE-5
12-11-2012, 06:46 PM
One last thing...

to any Sixer fans viewing this thread, I miss talking about the team with you guys, but until at least one person is banned or otherwise not posting anymore, I can't bring myself to go back to the forum. I honestly don't know how some of you put up with it anymore. Anyone want to just annex the Hawks forum or some other team that has no fans on here as our own and discuss the Sixers there?

ahaahha it keeps gettin worse with him man.

Alayla
12-11-2012, 08:07 PM
Iguodala is not having a great year, nor is Denver. Turner is outplaying AI so far. Fair points, but far from the entire picture. Turner is settling into a larger role on his same team while AI is developing a new role on a new team. I definitely understand if Philly didn't want to pay Iguodala what he was making, but that still doesn't change my opinion of Favors being a better choice.

As for the defense, Philly is no longer giving up the fewest points but rather is tied for 7th fewest with a negative 1.7 point differential. More importantly, the team's defensive rating is 12th when accounting for pace of play. Conversely, last year's Philly team was 3rd in both points per game given up and defensive rating and had a positive point differential of 4.2

Have you seen our bigs this season by any chance?
Frist you make a point that Turners rebounding is helped by us being a poor rebounding team then u fail to realise we got smaller in the same breath.
Thad Young and Lavoy Allen will never be the defender brand was last year.
Turner However very well may be the Defender Iggy was last year sometime later in his carrer.

topdog
12-11-2012, 08:16 PM
Have you seen our bigs this season by any chance?
Frist you make a point that Turners rebounding is helped by us being a poor rebounding team then u fail to realise we got smaller in the same breath.
Thad Young and Lavoy Allen will never be the defender brand was last year.
Turner However very well may be the Defender Iggy was last year sometime later in his carrer.

Two different conversations imo. I'm simply responding to statements not making an overall assessment of the team. Obviously, the changes made to this team were made with the assumption that Bynum would be manning the middle.

The whole discussion of ET's rebounding came out of an argument that Beal has more potential because he has a supposed "elite skill" coming out of college versus Turner who didn't.

As for defense, I'm not trying to say it was all Iguodala. I'm just pointing out that it is not the same as last year and that there is an argument to be made that Favors and Iggy could lead this team to a superior defensive rating.

P.S. I absolutely hated that trade for Hawes when it went down.

Alayla
12-11-2012, 08:17 PM
Honestly it's so hard for me to tell what Williams will be once he finally moves on. His size its going to always present a certain sort of difficulty and he'll have to learn to make match-ups favorable to himself by developing his perimeter and driving skills to a much higher level.

As for the 2010 draft, I guess I just saw it from a different perspective. To me, it was:

1. Brand can't keep up with the offense and its athletic wings.
2. Lou can play the 2 or the Sixers find someone who will fit tempo (Turner slows them imo)
3. Turner was the concensus 2 and the Wolves supposedly wanted him badly. New Jersey was not particularly attached to their pick so maybe something could have happened there :shrug:
4. Favors was raw but seemed to have a great attitude and measurements similar to Dwight Howard as a rookie. He was more-or-less the concensus 3rd pick so it's not as big of a risk as other drafts.

Its easy to say things like that from the outside looking in.

1. While brand may have been slow he was also hard to move and you cant really justify not starting a guy making max money.
Brand was also Great on the Defensive end.
I did like the prospect of Favors at the time but in the end im happy we have Turner as soon as we got Turner it was a sigh of relief for sixers fans as it meant Iggy would be gone soon. It meant change and i just don't see how anyone can look bad and think it was a poor choice. If i feel poorly about any draft choice it was this year Harkless (traded) and Moultie over PJ3..
how do you miss a guy like Perry Jones twice that late in a draft??!

2. Lou is undersized at the 2 spot and he cant even defend players at his own size all too well

topdog
12-11-2012, 08:24 PM
Its easy to say things like that from the outside looking in.

1. While brand may have been slow he was also hard to move and you cant really justify not starting a guy making max money.
Brand was also Great on the Defensive end.
I did like the prospect of Favors at the time but in the end im happy we have Turner as soon as we got Turner it was a sigh of relief for sixers fans as it meant Iggy would be gone soon. It meant change and i just don't see how anyone can look bad and think it was a poor choice. If i feel poorly about any draft choice it was this year Harkless (traded) and Moultie over PJ3..
how do you miss a guy like Perry Jones twice that late in a draft??!

2. Lou is undersized at the 2 spot and he cant even defend players at his own size all too well

There was talk of trading Brand at the time though. Not to mention the games when he'd stay on the bench at the end of games. Drafting Favors wouldn't have to affect how much Brand played.

I'm glad Philly fans are happy with Turner and there is nothing to say that he won't continue to get better. Personally, I liked Favors more and thought he'd fit well.

The Harkless pick wasn't great in my eyes, except that it helped net Bynum. Moutrie has some good potential though. Perry Jones might just be the next Anthony Randolph - hard to say, but also hard to pass up at that point.

Forever35
12-11-2012, 08:28 PM
Wiz are just down right terrible...

Could have a nice backcourt foundation with Wall and Beal, but until they get the right coach to steer that ship they'll just keep getting top draft picks who wind up playing in horrible systems...

As for Beal being like Evan Turner, alot of Turners continued progression and growth has to do with Doug Collins... The guy does a great job with young talent... If Washington ever finds the right coach for a young team Beal could be like Turner... Nothing special, but a solid player... Beal has the shooting ability to be a bit better offensively...

Alayla
12-11-2012, 08:45 PM
There was talk of trading Brand at the time though. Not to mention the games when he'd stay on the bench at the end of games. Drafting Favors wouldn't have to affect how much Brand played.

I'm glad Philly fans are happy with Turner and there is nothing to say that he won't continue to get better. Personally, I liked Favors more and thought he'd fit well.

The Harkless pick wasn't great in my eyes, except that it helped net Bynum. Moutrie has some good potential though. Perry Jones might just be the next Anthony Randolph - hard to say, but also hard to pass up at that point.

Who is better than any of our bigs outside of bynum and mabye thad
if thats a wrost case where do i sign?

Alayla
12-11-2012, 08:48 PM
Two different conversations imo. I'm simply responding to statements not making an overall assessment of the team. Obviously, the changes made to this team were made with the assumption that Bynum would be manning the middle.

The whole discussion of ET's rebounding came out of an argument that Beal has more potential because he has a supposed "elite skill" coming out of college versus Turner who didn't.

As for defense, I'm not trying to say it was all Iguodala. I'm just pointing out that it is not the same as last year and that there is an argument to be made that Favors and Iggy could lead this team to a superior defensive rating.

P.S. I absolutely hated that trade for Hawes when it went down.

Thats short term thinking this team wasn't going anywhere with Iggy as a best player and Iggy being here would have prevented Jrue holiday from having the breakout season he is having as well. i see your point but a Jrue Turner Thad Bynum core> (a much more limited Jrue) Iggy Favors core..

Alayla
12-11-2012, 08:51 PM
Oh and for the record i might be the only person in the world who is happy the sixers have hawes.. mainly because he is a 7 foot tall best of a bad situation and when Bynum comes back will be a nice backup because his game is so drastically different from bynum or he can start the 4 next to bynum and force some action away from the basket as a stretch 4

topdog
12-11-2012, 09:05 PM
Oh and for the record i might be the only person in the world who is happy the sixers have hawes.. mainly because he is a 7 foot tall best of a bad situation and when Bynum comes back will be a nice backup because his game is so drastically different from bynum or he can start the 4 next to bynum and force some action away from the basket as a stretch 4

Ew! Not even that Hawes is that horrible of a player (he's not great), but that trade was just hideous to me - Dalembert (nearly expired) for Hawes and an extra year of heavily-declining Nocioni.

SeoulBeatz
12-11-2012, 09:44 PM
One last thing...

to any Sixer fans viewing this thread, I miss talking about the team with you guys, but until at least one person is banned or otherwise not posting anymore, I can't bring myself to go back to the forum. I honestly don't know how some of you put up with it anymore. Anyone want to just annex the Hawks forum or some other team that has no fans on here as our own and discuss the Sixers there?

lol just block the guy. everyone knows how ignorant he is (even himself) and now no one takes him seriously (not like we ever did).

Swashcuff
12-11-2012, 09:59 PM
Damn I miss reading pd7631's posts even though I wholeheartedly disagree with his stance on Iggy :laugh2:

Catfish1314
12-11-2012, 10:26 PM
why bcuz hes younger? it doesnt work that way.

Better measurables/physical attributes, athleticism, pure talent on top of two years younger than Turner was when he entered the league. It works that way.


what elite skill set does Beal have? hes suppose to be an Eric Gordon shooter type of player. Its Turner with the elite skill set not Beal

Very interesting choice of words in reference to Evan Turner.

2-ONE-5
12-11-2012, 11:04 PM
a skill set is being able to do multiple things like Turner does, Beal does not have an elite skill set. He is believed to have one elite skill which is shooting. I also dont get all this talk of people thinking Turner is nothing special or will only be a role player. If he keeps up this play he will certainly be an all-star level player.

topdog
12-11-2012, 11:30 PM
a skill set is being able to do multiple things like Turner does, Beal does not have an elite skill set. He is believed to have one elite skill which is shooting. I also dont get all this talk of people thinking Turner is nothing special or will only be a role player. If he keeps up this play he will certainly be an all-star level player.

Right now, Turner is just over league average on efficiency. He has a ways to go if he's going to become a legit player. The good news is he's on the upward trend. Top 10 players have "elite skill sets," Turner has a "diverse" skill set.

Beal just turned in a nice game of 15PTS on 6/12, 7REB, 4AST, 1STL, 1TO and a W. He is a mucher better ballhandler and passer than he gets credit for. Also, Washington is horrendous - 30th in the league in shooting; Beal could have had 8-10 assists if guys could make open shots.

mrblisterdundee
12-13-2012, 02:37 AM
Jordan Crawford is not good. Beal is the future and will get minutes. Beal is more athletic than Turner and is performing better overall than ET in his rookie year (not that that is saying much).

Jordan Crawford has been better than Bradley Beal, even on a per 36 minutes basis. Crawford as a rookie also produced more than Beal per 36 minutes. Beal's PER as a rookie is 0.8 ahead of where Crawford's was as a rookie.
You have no definitive proof that Beal is better.

topdog
12-13-2012, 03:44 AM
Jordan Crawford has been better than Bradley Beal, even on a per 36 minutes basis. Crawford as a rookie also produced more than Beal per 36 minutes. Beal's PER as a rookie is 0.8 ahead of where Crawford's was as a rookie.
You have no definitive proof that Beal is better.

This is Crawford's 3rd year and I believe he is now 24 versus Beal is still in his 1st year and 19. I will agree with you that I don't have definitive proof that Beal is better, but I do have circumstantial evidence.

Crawford is a career 41/31/81 shooter on 13 shots with this year just being a hair better. Beal so far is 36/32/86 on 11. Which is better?

If we're talking about rookie years, we're talking about Beal having higher true shooting percentages and effective field goal percentages as well as superior offensive and defensive ratings. Crawford actually produced a negative win share his rookie year.

All that and here's really what is at the heart of my Crawford argument: he's a chucker. He's played enough seasons with a low enough FG% and a high enough volume of shots to classify him as that. He just looks better right now because the Wizards are hard up for scoring options just like the Wolves with Beasley a couple years ago. Beal is adjusting to the league, Crawford has been chucking at 18attempts/36minutes for 3 years now.

Alayla
12-13-2012, 06:06 AM
Ew! Not even that Hawes is that horrible of a player (he's not great), but that trade was just hideous to me - Dalembert (nearly expired) for Hawes and an extra year of heavily-declining Nocioni.

Im not saying we got the best trade we could have but its not somthing im upset about.
BTW your post makes it sound as if you thing dalembert was any good XD.

Alayla
12-13-2012, 06:11 AM
a skill set is being able to do multiple things like Turner does, Beal does not have an elite skill set. He is believed to have one elite skill which is shooting. I also dont get all this talk of people thinking Turner is nothing special or will only be a role player. If he keeps up this play he will certainly be an all-star level player.

:eyebrow: Dude your making sixers fans look really bad right now.
Dw people most of us are not so delusional as to think turner is anything close to an all star right now. Holiday however has a fair case.

Too put it nicely dispite his 1 allstar appearance last season Iggy is a role player all things considered
IGGY>Turner try not to get ahead of yourself :P

2-ONE-5
12-13-2012, 07:49 AM
:eyebrow: Dude your making sixers fans look really bad right now.
Dw people most of us are not so delusional as to think turner is anything close to an all star right now. Holiday however has a fair case.

Too put it nicely dispite his 1 allstar appearance last season Iggy is a role player all things considered
IGGY>Turner try not to get ahead of yourself :P

you bold my post nthen still misread it? i didnt say he is an all star right now. Im not making anyone look bad seeing how if i really wanted to i could make a decent case for ET this year over a good handful of all star level players from a statistics standpoint

topdog
12-13-2012, 02:26 PM
Im not saying we got the best trade we could have but its not somthing im upset about.
BTW your post makes it sound as if you thing dalembert was any good XD.

I'd rather have Dalembert on his ending contract with his defensive skillset (and far better shooting percentages) than Hawes with his offensive skillset and the ball-and-chain of Nocioni. I get that Hawes had value as a young center, but it wasn't enough to justify and extra year of < 40% shooting $6.5M man Andres Nocioni. I absolutely hated this trade and I had nothing to do with it lol

AWC713
12-13-2012, 02:43 PM
i hate dumb fans sometimes.

its 1/4th of the way through his rookie year. he's 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

give him some damn time. he looked good against the rockets last night, and he'll get better with wall returning. thats a formidable backcourt that will grow together.

and he doesnt really play like turner, so that comparison is completely bogus. if youre going for the bust factor, may as well compare him to kwame

sixer04fan
12-13-2012, 02:47 PM
One last thing...

to any Sixer fans viewing this thread, I miss talking about the team with you guys, but until at least one person is banned or otherwise not posting anymore, I can't bring myself to go back to the forum. I honestly don't know how some of you put up with it anymore.

It's bholly, isn't it... That guy has been trouble since day 1! Haha, just kidding..

Dude. Come back to us!

ZHawk1123
12-13-2012, 02:55 PM
Beal could definitely turn out to be Randy Foyeish

Alayla
12-13-2012, 08:17 PM
you bold my post nthen still misread it? i didnt say he is an all star right now. Im not making anyone look bad seeing how if i really wanted to i could make a decent case for ET this year over a good handful of all star level players from a statistics standpoint

ET Wont ever be an allstar player at any point in his carrer that should have been obvious on draft day let alone 3 years into his carrer.

in his carrer he might fluke into 1 allstar game but i wouldnt hold my breath on that.

2-ONE-5
12-13-2012, 11:59 PM
ET Wont ever be an allstar player at any point in his carrer that should have been obvious on draft day let alone 3 years into his carrer.

in his carrer he might fluke into 1 allstar game but i wouldnt hold my breath on that.

i dont get how u can say that with confidence? I mean hell u have his stats in ur sig. Your gonna tell me if he continues to improve off being a 15/7/4 player he wont make an all-star team? He very well is starting to look like a potential 18/8/5 player and that my friend is an all star. Can he sustain this level of play, i dont know, we will see.

j-bay
12-15-2012, 10:52 PM
Beal has done very well the last few games. He is really showing his potenial despite the Wizards losing.

Lakers4life08
12-16-2012, 12:56 AM
He don't have star potential...but he can be really good player in the future

Alayla
12-16-2012, 07:17 AM
i dont get how u can say that with confidence? I mean hell u have his stats in ur sig. Your gonna tell me if he continues to improve off being a 15/7/4 player he wont make an all-star team? He very well is starting to look like a potential 18/8/5 player and that my friend is an all star. Can he sustain this level of play, i dont know, we will see.

i dont think 47.5% from Deep is sustainable
i dont think he would have 7 RPG if this where a good team with decent rebounding
I also doubt his scoring would be this high on a good team
that's the key here to make the all-star game unless its trough fan vote you typically have to win.
You also need to be a standout guy on a team that Wins.
even if in the next few years we turn out good with/without Bynum Turner wont be our best player when we do. If anyone gets an alstar nod within the next few years its Jrue

mrblisterdundee
12-20-2012, 02:00 AM
This is Crawford's 3rd year and I believe he is now 24 versus Beal is still in his 1st year and 19. I will agree with you that I don't have definitive proof that Beal is better, but I do have circumstantial evidence.
I was comparing Crawford at 22 to Beal at 19. I don't think that's even a very significant difference, considering Beal's always been shorter and slightly heavier, and body build is more important than tree years' difference.



Crawford is a career 41/31/81 shooter on 13 shots with this year just being a hair better. Beal so far is 36/32/86 on 11. Which is better?
For his rookie season, Beal is 35.8 percent on his field goals, 30.5 percent from three and 84.3 percent from the line. For his career, Crawford is 39.4 percent on his field goals, 28.8 from three and 81.4 from the line. The differences at least equal out, and Crawford has kept a 3.6-percent higher field goal percentage throughout two and a quarter seasons.
Crawford's also averaging 3.5 points per 36 minutes more than Beal, who gets slightly more playing time.


If we're talking about rookie years, we're talking about Beal having higher true shooting percentages and effective field goal percentages as well as superior offensive and defensive ratings. Crawford actually produced a negative win share his rookie year.
Beal averages 47.1 on his true shooting percentage and 41.3 percent on his effective field goal percentage. While Crawford averaged 45.6 percent as a rookie, he's averaged 47.9 percent over his entire career. He also averages a 43.8 effective field goal percentage. He's also got a higher percentage as a rookie.
While averaging a slightly lower true shooting percentage as a rookie, he scored two more points per 36 minutes.
Check your numbers better.


All that and here's really what is at the heart of my Crawford argument: he's a chucker. He's played enough seasons with a low enough FG% and a high enough volume of shots to classify him as that. He just looks better right now because the Wizards are hard up for scoring options just like the Wolves with Beasley a couple years ago. Beal is adjusting to the league, Crawford has been chucking at 18attempts/36minutes for 3 years now.
As for him being a chucker, he's averaged more points per 36 minutes and a higher effective field goal percentage, so he must be doing something right. He has been a more effective and efficient scorer over two and a quarter seasons than Beal has been in a quarter of a season.

topdog
12-20-2012, 03:52 AM
I was comparing Crawford at 22 to Beal at 19. I don't think that's even a very significant difference, considering Beal's always been shorter and slightly heavier, and body build is more important than tree years' difference.


For his rookie season, Beal is 35.8 percent on his field goals, 30.5 percent from three and 84.3 percent from the line. For his career, Crawford is 39.4 percent on his field goals, 28.8 from three and 81.4 from the line. The differences at least equal out, and Crawford has kept a 3.6-percent higher field goal percentage throughout two and a quarter seasons.
Crawford's also averaging 3.5 points per 36 minutes more than Beal, who gets slightly more playing time.


Beal averages 47.1 on his true shooting percentage and 41.3 percent on his effective field goal percentage. While Crawford averaged 45.6 percent as a rookie, he's averaged 47.9 percent over his entire career. He also averages a 43.8 effective field goal percentage. He's also got a higher percentage as a rookie.
While averaging a slightly lower true shooting percentage as a rookie, he scored two more points per 36 minutes.
Check your numbers better.


As for him being a chucker, he's averaged more points per 36 minutes and a higher effective field goal percentage, so he must be doing something right. He has been a more effective and efficient scorer over two and a quarter seasons than Beal has been in a quarter of a season.

Beal's rookie season is in progress... his numbers obviously are going to be different when you get around to responding a couple weeks later. So that is a ridiculous comment.

I'm going to give you a couple guesses as to why Beal plays more. Then, I'm going to tell you it's because the coaching staff knows Crawford is a chucker whereas Beal attempts to get his teammates involved and because Beal is a rookie who needs time to adjust to the league and show what kind of player he really is.

The sample size is too small on Beal and the returns are too early to make any solid determinations. Crawford has had time to show what he is and "Buckets Junior" as I just heard him called on TNT last night is a chucker.

bholly
12-20-2012, 06:13 AM
It's bholly, isn't it... That guy has been trouble since day 1! Haha, just kidding..

Dude. Come back to us!

:cool:

mrblisterdundee
12-20-2012, 11:09 PM
Beal's rookie season is in progress... his numbers obviously are going to be different when you get around to responding a couple weeks later. So that is a ridiculous comment.

I'm going to give you a couple guesses as to why Beal plays more. Then, I'm going to tell you it's because the coaching staff knows Crawford is a chucker whereas Beal attempts to get his teammates involved and because Beal is a rookie who needs time to adjust to the league and show what kind of player he really is.

The sample size is too small on Beal and the returns are too early to make any solid determinations. Crawford has had time to show what he is and "Buckets Junior" as I just heard him called on TNT last night is a chucker.

You can say "chucker" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Crawford's been a more prolific and efficient scorer over two and one-quarter seasons than Beal has in one-quarter of a season. If that's the case, you could call Beal a "chucker" for being a less efficient scorer.
As for getting other teammates involved, Crawford averages 2.8 more assists per 36 minutes. He gets 2.3 more assists per game than Beal even while getting slightly less playing time.
Let's both agree that making judgments on Beal's overall worth is pointless at this time.