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View Full Version : David Stern Wants to End Hack-a-Shaq (Tiago, D12, etc)



topdog
12-07-2012, 02:46 PM
Via Yahoo, Stern wants to improve the flow of the game by extending the 2 minute rule which takes place at the end of games to the full 48 minutes for off-the-ball fouling. Intentional fouls of the non-ballhandler would (and do in the last 2 minutes) result in 2 free throws plus retaining possession of the ball.

The argument that follows Stern's line of thinking is that the game becomes disjointed and unenjoyable to watch when it turns into a special olympics of free throwing (my words not his).

Counter arguments include the opinion that the big fellas simply need to learn how to shoot the freebies, it's a tactical part of the NBA (like no DH in the NL of baseball) and that off-the-ball fouls are not always intentional and could be unfairly punished.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/david-stern-stamp-hack-shaq-tactics-231558614--nba.html

Hellcrooner
12-07-2012, 02:47 PM
Its easy.

Call a technical.

2 shots AND then possesion of the ball.

bucketss
12-07-2012, 02:49 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

ManRam
12-07-2012, 02:50 PM
I'm really split on whether or not I think it should be allowed. I don't think I care too much either way.

topdog
12-07-2012, 02:51 PM
My opinion is that it's tactical and should not change. If anything, get rid of the rule. It forces a team to decide if they want to keep a particular player in the game despite his liability while the other team gives up fouls and foul shots to the other team. That's fair to me.

nycericanguy
12-07-2012, 02:52 PM
My opinion is that it's tactical and should not change. If anything, get rid of the rule. It forces a team to decide if they want to keep a particular player in the game despite his liability while the other team gives up fouls and foul shots to the other team. That's fair to me.

agreed...

The NBA already does too much to protect poor FT shooters IMO.

ATL#22
12-07-2012, 02:52 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

This what it looks like he is trying to do

Gram
12-07-2012, 02:52 PM
If people can't shoot - deal with it.

topdog
12-07-2012, 02:53 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

To be fair, others have been subjected to it "Slay-a-Dré" in Motown or the very uncreative "Hack-a-DJ" in Clipperland. Not saying a certain large market and its fan base isn't the reason, but Dwight isn't the only big taking a lickin'.

TheWhiteMamba
12-07-2012, 02:54 PM
Its the NBA. If you can hit a free throw then take your *** to the bench. Dictator Stern trying to make sure Lakers get to finals without any late game **** ups by Dwight at the line.

BigBlueCrew
12-07-2012, 02:54 PM
Most corrupt commissioner in the history of sports :facepalm:

If your stupid *** cant hit a free throw then you deserve what you get.

sixer04fan
12-07-2012, 02:54 PM
Learn how to shoot a ****ing free throw and they'll stop hacking you. How about that?

Greedy22
12-07-2012, 02:55 PM
Leave the rule alone, these dudes are professionals. It's an embarrassment on them for not improving.

topdog
12-07-2012, 02:55 PM
Also, could a mod change the title to correct David Stern's name?

Thread fail :facepalm: on my part. But the "s" is right there by the "d."

teddygreen17
12-07-2012, 02:55 PM
MAKE YOUR FREE THROWS.....you are a PROFESSIONAL.

ThunderousDemon
12-07-2012, 02:56 PM
If people can't shoot - deal with it.

This.

Dwight needs to learn to shoot a ****ing free throw, he knows about the hack-a-dwight tactic, but yet he's shooting a career-worst 46.9 percent from the free-throw line.

Sadds The Gr8
12-07-2012, 02:57 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years


My opinion is that it's tactical and should not change. If anything, get rid of the rule. It forces a team to decide if they want to keep a particular player in the game despite his liability while the other team gives up fouls and foul shots to the other team. That's fair to me.


If people can't shoot - deal with it.


Its the NBA. If you can hit a free throw then take your *** to the bench. Dictator Stern trying to make sure Lakers get to finals without any late game **** ups by Dwight at the line.

this

ManRam
12-07-2012, 02:57 PM
The theory is that a team is rewarded when they're fouled. If that isn't actually a reward, well, tough luck. I guess ultimately I'm fine with leaving it how it is.

I do like the final 2 minute rule though. Slowing down the last 2 minutes any more than they already are is terrifying.

Rockice_8
12-07-2012, 03:00 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

Seriously, like this has to be directed at Dwight and LA's poor start. Anyway like how often does it happen like 2-3 possessions down the floor at most. It's not like teams are doing the whole 4th quarter. It's strategy just let it play out or learn how to shoot a damn FT, they're free for a reason.

What's next telling teams when they have to sub?

Quinnsanity
12-07-2012, 03:00 PM
Why is nobody mentioning him calling it "the special olympics of free throw shooting"? How is that acceptable in our age of political correctness? That's so ****ing offensive.

JiffyMix88
12-07-2012, 03:00 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

Exactly what I thought when I read the OP.

There is nothing wrong with the rules that have been in place. Why doesn't Stern just tell teams to help their "Star" players improve their freethrows than there wouldn't be no problem.

PleaseBeNice
12-07-2012, 03:01 PM
Learn to shoot. It's baffling how bad some of these guys are at free throws. Most of these people have played basketball their entire lives, and if they still cannot shoot free throws, sounds like a personal problem. These guys are getting paid millions, learn to shoot FT's or else you'll be exploited and taken advantage of. After all, it is a game, and the point is to win

Rockice_8
12-07-2012, 03:03 PM
Why is nobody mentioning him calling it "the special olympics of free throw shooting"? How is that acceptable in our age of political correctness? That's so ****ing offensive.

I didn't even catch that part. Yeah probably shouldn't say stuff like that, especially as the commish. I'm not offended but I'm sure someone will be.

ThunderousDemon
12-07-2012, 03:04 PM
Why is nobody mentioning him calling it "the special olympics of free throw shooting"? How is that acceptable in our age of political correctness? That's so ****ing offensive.

Nein nein nein! Alle Hagel Marktführer Stern

noodle
12-07-2012, 03:05 PM
If people can't shoot - deal with it.

Exactly. It's part of the game, if a guy can hit 65% from the floor but only hits 45% from the line then that's his ****ing problem.

noodle
12-07-2012, 03:07 PM
Wilt Chamberlain called, said "Go F yourself"

Mr_Jones
12-07-2012, 03:08 PM
I'm a Lakers fan, but it really does kill any flow of the games.

I understand that it's purely a strategy (a good one at that), but it really ruins any flow.

KnickaBocka.44
12-07-2012, 03:10 PM
I still don't understand why guys like Dwight don't get more creative when they are THAT bad at shooting free throws. He should seriously try shooting granny style; too much pride I guess.

AddiX
12-07-2012, 03:10 PM
The last thing the NBA needs is more star treatment.

topdog
12-07-2012, 03:11 PM
I still don't understand why guys like Dwight don't get more creative when they are THAT bad at shooting free throws. He should seriously try shooting granny style; too much pride I guess.

Hook shot?

CB29
12-07-2012, 03:12 PM
This isn't wrestling. You don't have to give the people a show. You have a game and people play to watch the best basketball players in the world playing basketball. Its a sport and he's trying to manufacture it into something that it's not and shouldn't be.

ThunderousDemon
12-07-2012, 03:13 PM
I still don't understand why guys like Dwight don't get more creative when they are THAT bad at shooting free throws. He should seriously try shooting granny style; too much pride I guess.

If it was pride, he wouldn't be shooting below 50 percent from the free throw line. I guess he rather brick and air ball every shot than help his team and make the free throws.

xnick5757
12-07-2012, 03:15 PM
I still don't understand why guys like Dwight don't get more creative when they are THAT bad at shooting free throws. He should seriously try shooting granny style; too much pride I guess.

like this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4eJSjwlD5o&feature=player_detailpage#t=292s

The goods
12-07-2012, 03:15 PM
As a Laker fan I love it, but players Dwight included should learn to make their free throws, but to be far its a cheap way to get out of playing defense just like flopping.

Chickenfin
12-07-2012, 03:15 PM
They get paid to play basketball maybe some of these players should spend a little extra time after practice learning how to shoot FT's

ThunderousDemon
12-07-2012, 03:16 PM
This isn't wrestling. You don't have to give the people a show. You have a game and people play to watch the best basketball players in the world playing basketball. Its a sport and he's trying to manufacture it into something that it's not and shouldn't be.

Nein nein nein! Wie kannst du es wagen zu kritisieren unser geliebter Führer David Stern

LAKobeBryant
12-07-2012, 03:17 PM
Why is nobody mentioning him calling it "the special olympics of free throw shooting"? How is that acceptable in our age of political correctness? That's so ****ing offensive.


The argument that follows Stern's line of thinking is that the game becomes disjointed and unenjoyable to watch when it turns into a special olympics of free throwing (my words not his).

^

sjbirds
12-07-2012, 03:17 PM
Why is nobody mentioning him calling it "the special olympics of free throw shooting"? How is that acceptable in our age of political correctness? That's so ****ing offensive.


Via Yahoo, Stern wants to improve the flow of the game by extending the 2 minute rule which takes place at the end of games to the full 48 minutes for off-the-ball fouling. Intentional fouls of the non-ballhandler would (and do in the last 2 minutes) result in 2 free throws plus retaining possession of the ball.

The argument that follows Stern's line of thinking is that the game becomes disjointed and unenjoyable to watch when it turns into a special olympics of free throwing (my words not his).

Counter arguments include the opinion that the big fellas simply need to learn how to shoot the freebies, it's a tactical part of the NBA (like no DH in the NL of baseball) and that off-the-ball fouls are not always intentional and could be unfairly punished.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/david-stern-stamp-hack-shaq-tactics-231558614--nba.html

the commish didnt say it...the op did

Baller1
12-07-2012, 03:21 PM
Hate it. These are professionals... If they can't hit a free throw, that's on them. Lets not implement rules to excuse them for being pathetic at one of the games easiest aspects.

This should not happen.

LOOTERX9
12-07-2012, 03:23 PM
I think stern is doing the right thing actually. cause the pace of games can be awful with all the fouling but I think stern should concentrate more on the other loose ball fouls throughout the game and tell refs not to call those away from the ball fouls that don't have anything to do with the ball handler. That will improve the flow of the game much more.

torocan
12-07-2012, 03:25 PM
Sure, let's change the rules for EVERYONE because a handful of players can't hit an uncontested shot from the SAME position Every game.

It's not like they haven't had Years and Years to work on that shot since they were playing in High School or College. Yes, FT's are an entirely New and Different shot than what they experienced before their pro careers. :facepalm:

If your FT shooting costs a team a game, tough freaking luck. Your team mates should be calling you out, riding your butt, and your coach shouldn't be letting you do ANYTHING except shoot FT's at practices.

And if you end up on the Bench because you can't make a FT, sorry, ZERO sympathy from me.

Change the rules... yah, right...

topdog
12-07-2012, 03:25 PM
the commish didnt say it...the op did

Didn't mean to offend anyone (and I have a hard time believing I did offend someone with "Troll" as a user title), but I thought it was an apt metaphor as we are talking about the game being turned into a free throw event in which some would claim that the players involved have a physical or mental handicap: Physical being their huge hands somehow impairing them. Mental being the number of shots they've missed/the pressure of needing to make them get to them.

RonE Coleman
12-07-2012, 03:26 PM
**** David Stern

If a professional basketball player can't hit FREE THROWS, that's his own problem.

Hustla23
12-07-2012, 03:28 PM
I thought the point of having basketball games was to see who can win in a game of basketball.

I didn't know the goal was for people to be entertained, first and foremost.

I mean, if that's the case, why stop there?

Why not just make it so that jumpshots are disallowed and the only way to score is off of alley oops?

That would be fun as **** to watch and speed up the game like crazy.

Tytanium 24
12-07-2012, 03:30 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

Yes because vetoing the Chris Paul trade was a big help.

LAKobeBryant
12-07-2012, 03:30 PM
This isn't wrestling. You don't have to give the people a show. You have a game and people play to watch the best basketball players in the world playing basketball. Its a sport and he's trying to manufacture it into something that it's not and shouldn't be.

Then why is there a 24 second shot clock. Teams would take 1-2minute for a possession. Rules are to make the game smoother and good to watch for the fans.

dalton749
12-07-2012, 03:35 PM
its two free uncontested god damn shots. if you get paid millions to not be able to make them thats your problem. dont have the guy on the floor simple as that

sjbirds
12-07-2012, 03:37 PM
Didn't mean to offend anyone (and I have a hard time believing I did offend someone with "Troll" as a user title), but I thought it was an apt metaphor as we are talking about the game being turned into a free throw event in which some would claim that the players involved have a physical or mental handicap: Physical being their huge hands somehow impairing them. Mental being the number of shots they've missed/the pressure of needing to make them get to them.

haha...i was just pointing out it wasnt him...dont think it offended them as much gave them something to ***** about

macc
12-07-2012, 03:40 PM
I think the NBA has enough rules as it is. Besides, I think it's fun to watch Dwight miss clutch free throws at the end of the game that costs his team win. I'm fine with it breaking up the flow a bit.

As other people have posted, they are professional basketball players. Fix your game and don't make yourself a liability.

TheRazorboy
12-07-2012, 03:43 PM
I have a hard time rationalizing rewarding any player for being terrible at what should be a significant and relatively simple aspect of their game.

LongWayFromHome
12-07-2012, 03:43 PM
I thought they were going to get punished for fouling them WITH the ball. That would be a terrible rule. The off-ball-intentional fouling. I would be okay with outlawing that.

Chronz
12-07-2012, 03:43 PM
No leave the game alone.

Its a good thing Stern cant just change everything how he sees fit

topdog
12-07-2012, 03:44 PM
haha...i was just pointing out it wasnt him...dont think it offended them as much gave them something to ***** about

Which is appreciated. I ignored the original post by the guy because he was a troll and I was interested if people would just take to outright bashing Stern without reading. I ended up just quoting you because it had become too much of a thing.

LOOTERX9
12-07-2012, 03:44 PM
**** David Stern

If a professional basketball player can't hit FREE THROWS, that's his own problem.

Stern is not trying to help howard. Stern is trying to avoid this from becoming an epidemic and the fouling of guys without the ball on purpose is a drag on the flow of the game. Stern needs to tell refs not to call so many away from the ball fouls too. i hate that these games are turning into free throw shooting contests

ChiSox219
12-07-2012, 03:46 PM
Intentional fouls are terrible for the sport. It already sucks that the las 2 minutes take half an hour sometimes.

Sssmush
12-07-2012, 03:46 PM
The hack-a-Shaq thing is clearly an exploit of the rules, similar to the widespread "flopping" that was going on, and takes away from the skill factor, excitement and flow of the game.

Iron24th
12-07-2012, 03:47 PM
It's unfair but as a Lakers fan I'm all for it

Dade County
12-07-2012, 03:49 PM
If people can't shoot - deal with it.

This... Your job is to play basketball, it makes NO!!!! sense that these players can't shoot free throws.

Hours upon hours of practice year round, and you can't develop your skills...smh

tnewkirk
12-07-2012, 03:49 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

yea like letting them get paul.

Teeboy1487
12-07-2012, 04:31 PM
I agree with David Stern here. It just messes with the flow of the game. I felt the disrupted flow of the Lakers offense cost them the game in Houston the other night more than Howard missing his FTs because Kobe never got a rhythm in the 4th. Off the ball intentional fouls should be 2 FTs and the ball when in the penalty like Crooner said. Now intentional fouls while having the ball should be legal, but not off the ball intentional fouls.

xabial
12-07-2012, 04:37 PM
Hahaha Looks Like Stern wants a repeat of the Lakers/Kings Playoff series this year. Whose the victim going to be this year??? Denver? LMAO

Avenged
12-07-2012, 04:38 PM
I don't like it but he should just let it be. Weird timing...

btw, it's not only the last 2 minutes teams have been doing this, at least not to Dwight.

Sssmush
12-07-2012, 04:39 PM
I have a hard time rationalizing rewarding any player for being terrible at what should be a significant and relatively simple aspect of their game.

Free throws are ALREADY the suckiest and most boring aspect of the game.

The referees already are calling ~50 fouls a game, and 70 or 80 FTs in a game is not uncommon. That is already way too much free throwing, and way too much involvement by the refs.

If you add to that, that some teams think they will be able to eek out a win by intentionally fouling the centers continually even away from the ball every possession, that is just clearly not good for the game.

One thing I will mention with Dwight, and this was true with Shaq as well, was that Shaq didn't get sent to the line enough when the teams WEREN'T hack-a-shaqqing.

For instance, Shaq should've gotten faaaaar more And-1s than he did, and the same is true of Dwight. There is hella contact on so many made shots that Dwight is putting in, just like with Shaq.

I think if you just call the games straight up, the rules the same for everybody even if your name is Shaq or Dwight, and then teams won't have all these extra fouls to give at the end of games. I mean these teams are slapping Dwight on his arms all game and like 5 fouls get called, and then at the end they start "intentionally" fouling him and send him to the line 7 more times.

Just call the games straight up and start giving Dwight all his And-1s on his dunks, layups and putbacks, and then who gives a **** if teams want to foul out all their starters with 4 minutes left with some hack-a-Shaq bull****

Slug3
12-07-2012, 04:41 PM
Why is Stern acting like this happens every single game and it takes away like 40 minutes from the game? It might happen a few times every so often to the bad FT shooters.

topdog
12-07-2012, 04:42 PM
I get that these fouls interupt the "flow of the game" and don't create the smoothest product, but if it's what my team needs to do to stay in and/or win the game then I am more concerned with that than with the stop-and-start play - we are already subject to that with invisible superstar calls.

Sssmush
12-07-2012, 04:44 PM
The other solution is just stop calling so many fouls altogether, and let the teams make heavy contact all game without calling very many fouls.

Don't allow teams to just "touch" Dwight and get the "intentional" foul because they told the ref. Make them really smack Dwight, and let Dwight smack them right back.

Like I think for sure, if Dwight is just standing there away from the ball, and some player walks up to him and smacks him, then just by the existing rules that should be a personal foul and a technical. The bull**** thing is that they go and tell the refs "here comes an intentional foul" and then touch him and send Dwight to the line. I see no reason why the refs or the league has to comply with that strategy, and for all the "purists" out there, they should see that isn't part of the game.

Ezio
12-07-2012, 04:46 PM
Make your free throws and it will stop.

Sssmush
12-07-2012, 04:48 PM
Also, notice that no championship team has done this. San Antonio doesn't do it, so that right there tells you it isn't a good strategy ultimately, or is at least so demeaning to your team that it isn't worth it.

1. tanking games for lottery picks
2. flopping
3. hack-a-Shaq

what else can we add to this list of bull**** strategies that crap teams use?

Slug3
12-07-2012, 04:53 PM
Also, notice that no championship team has done this. San Antonio doesn't do it, so that right there tells you it isn't a good strategy ultimately, or is at least so demeaning to your team that it isn't worth it.

1. tanking games for lottery picks
2. flopping
3. hack-a-Shaq

what else can we add to this list of bull**** strategies that crap teams use?

Wasn't it Pop that started the hack a shaq?

Baller1
12-07-2012, 04:57 PM
This better not happen.

topdog
12-07-2012, 05:03 PM
Wasn't it Pop that started the hack a shaq?

No, Don Nelson. Pop did use it in the 2008 playoffs though and then had Finley foul Shaq early in their meeting the next year as a joke in response to some comments from Shaq about '08.

CEasFiRe
12-07-2012, 05:18 PM
stern has done enough for the lakers this year and if you cant make a free throw whose fault is it really?! its called strategy and if you cant make freebies then you should start practicing I dont care who you are, free throws arent hard to make at all

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 05:21 PM
My opinion is that it's tactical and should not change. If anything, get rid of the rule. It forces a team to decide if they want to keep a particular player in the game despite his liability while the other team gives up fouls and foul shots to the other team. That's fair to me.

exactly this. Until our youth coaches actually start teaching our basketball players, you know, BASKETBALL, let the big men who suck at free throws face the music. Dwight has had how long to get better at them? Screw him, and anyone else who can't hit 65%+ from the stripe.

TmacBryant
12-07-2012, 05:21 PM
The full 48 minutes? Hell no.

Either extend it to the last 3-4 minutes or leave it how it is.

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 05:21 PM
this would be pure manipulation if Stern did this.

ThunderousDemon
12-07-2012, 05:22 PM
stern has done enough for the lakers this year and if you cant make a free throw whose fault is it really?! its called strategy and if you cant make freebies then you should start practicing I dont care who you are, free throws arent hard to make at all

Care to explain what exactly those things are?

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 05:22 PM
Also, notice that no championship team has done this. San Antonio doesn't do it, so that right there tells you it isn't a good strategy ultimately, or is at least so demeaning to your team that it isn't worth it.

1. tanking games for lottery picks
2. flopping
3. hack-a-Shaq

what else can we add to this list of bull**** strategies that crap teams use?

San Antonio has done it.

lakerfan85
12-07-2012, 05:35 PM
If a bad free throw shooter has the ball in his hands then foul him but these away from the ball fouls that occur at the opposite end of the court are absurd.. How about if you intentionally foul a player who doesn't have the ball then they get 3 free throws..

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 05:36 PM
If a bad free throw shooter has the ball in his hands then foul him but these away from the ball fouls that occur at the opposite end of the court are absurd.. How about if you intentionally foul a player who doesn't have the ball then they get 3 free throws..

I have to say, and I mean this with no disrespect, but its hard for me to take a Laker fan seriously on this subject, when you had the guy who created this strategy, and now have another horrific FT shooter at center. Why wouldn't you want the rule changed to help you guys?

Lakers + Giants
12-07-2012, 05:40 PM
Why should Dwight get an easy way out? Practice your damn FTs and you wont have to worry about this. This is coming from a laker fan too.

"No, get rid of the rule altogether. If they can't shoot, deal with it."

kdspurman
12-07-2012, 05:41 PM
It took him to see it happen to the Lakers to comment, he brought up Tiago Splitter but never came out and said anything after OKC did it to him.

Excuse me if I think this commish is absolutely full of crap.

From the outside in, why wouldn't fans think he would was trying to make it easier for LAL? I'm not accusing but you can see why one might assume that. Coming from the guy who has been on the record for saying Lakers vs Lakers would be the ideal finals matchup. (not a typo either)

kdspurman
12-07-2012, 05:43 PM
San Antonio has done it.

San Antonio did it a lot too. Shaq publicly criticized Pop for doing it. I'm sure most folks remember this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S_soY5Jg_Q

lakerfan85
12-07-2012, 05:43 PM
I have to say, and I mean this with no disrespect, but its hard for me to take a Laker fan seriously on this subject, when you had the guy who created this strategy, and now have another horrific FT shooter at center. Why wouldn't you want the rule changed to help you guys?

I agree.. I just think its stupid that players are allowed to wrap someone up for a foul that doesn't have the ball as soon as its inbounded.. If the lakers run a play for Dwight on an offensive End and you wanna foul him then by all means do so.. He does need to learn how to make his damn free throws..

Raidaz4Life
12-07-2012, 05:46 PM
I agree with the rule, not because I care about protecting poor free throw shooters, but because as a fan we want to watch basketball, not a free throw shooting contest. Its strategic, sure but its poor sportsmanship. Games were not intended to be decided at the free throw line. If you are fouling them, then you are taking away a team's chance at getting a higher percentage shot (a dunk) or a basket worth more points ( a 3), why should the penalty only be worth a potential two points that aren't exactly high percentage for some players.


I feel the same way if a team is trying to catch up by shooting 3's and the opposing team is fouling them so they can only get two points per possession. Its just not fair really. I fully agree with two shots and the ball for any intentional foul.

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 05:51 PM
I agree.. I just think its stupid that players are allowed to wrap someone up for a foul that doesn't have the ball as soon as its inbounded.. If the lakers run a play for Dwight on an offensive End and you wanna foul him then by all means do so.. He does need to learn how to make his damn free throws..

I mean, get better at FT's then....

When playing those guys, its a smart tactic, sorry. Is it weak sauce? Sure. But a win is a win.

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 05:52 PM
I agree with the rule, not because I care about protecting poor free throw shooters, but because as a fan we want to watch basketball, not a free throw shooting contest. Its strategic, sure but its poor sportsmanship. Games were not intended to be decided at the free throw line. If you are fouling them, then you are taking away a team's chance at getting a higher percentage shot (a dunk) or a basket worth more points ( a 3), why should the penalty only be worth a potential two points that aren't exactly high percentage for some players.


I feel the same way if a team is trying to catch up by shooting 3's and the opposing team is fouling them so they can only get two points per possession. Its just not fair really. I fully agree with two shots and the ball for any intentional foul.

Then pull the crappy FT shooter out of the game. Or, you can ask Dwight to actually start shooting them better. Pretty simple.

stawka
12-07-2012, 05:57 PM
Why couldn't you do this **** 15 years ago you ****ing cockroach

Bruno
12-07-2012, 06:02 PM
i've always thought it was an interesting rule.

usually when someone commits a foul that isn't a foul on the ball, it is a flagrant I. with the exception to intentional fouls off the ball, as we all know. there must be some wiggle room in the language of the text :shrug:

i've always hated watching hack-a-big. it's boring basketball.

lakerfan85
12-07-2012, 06:06 PM
I mean, get better at FT's then....

When playing those guys, its a smart tactic, sorry. Is it weak sauce? Sure. But a win is a win.

Well I guess if that's the only way the T'wolves can win against the Lakers then so be it.. :D

Sly Guy
12-07-2012, 06:07 PM
big guys gotta make the free ones. You can't just keep changing rules to cover up lazy players who are unwilling to learn how to shoot from a consistent distance with no defense on them.

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 06:08 PM
If they change this rule to protect awful FT shooters who otherwise dominate, I have a few other rule change suggestions, for a few players:

No player is allowed to block Love's shot, because he can't jump very high.
When Rondo misses a jumper, he gets at least 3 wide open do-overs.
Blake Griffin gets 3 free throws to make 2 after any foul.

I mean, if we are going to try and get rid of teams abilities to go after weaknesses of star players, lets get at it.

Sly Guy
12-07-2012, 06:08 PM
i've always thought it was an interesting rule.

usually when someone commits a foul that isn't a foul on the ball, it is a flagrant I. with the exception to intentional fouls off the ball, as we all know. there must be some wiggle room in the language of the text :shrug:

i've always hated watching hack-a-big. it's boring basketball.

yeah, but that's the big's fault for being deficient in a critical aspect of the game, not the opposing coach's for doing what he thinks it takes to win the game.

justinnum1
12-07-2012, 06:11 PM
its pathetic that a professional basketball player cant shoot 50% from the line

lol all the lakers fans voting yes

Raidaz4Life
12-07-2012, 06:14 PM
Then pull the crappy FT shooter out of the game. Or, you can ask Dwight to actually start shooting them better. Pretty simple.

Did you not read my post? It has nothing to do with pulling a crappy free throw shooter. It has to do with the principle of free throws not being enough compensation for preventing a team from either getting more points in a possession or getting a higher percentage shot, especially when done in an intentional manner.

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 06:16 PM
Did you not read my post? It has nothing to do with pulling a crappy free throw shooter. It has to do with the principle of free throws not being enough compensation of preventing a team from either getting more points in a possession or getting a higher percentage shot.

I understand that. But if a player is so awful at shooting FT's, and the rules state that an off the ball foul sends that player to the line, why wouldn't a defense employ that tactic, so they can indeed stop what you are saying can occur, ie, more points most likely against them?

Greedy22
12-07-2012, 06:23 PM
Dwight has 2 choices, learn to make ****ing free throws or run like hell from the opposing team come crunch time especially on inbound plays.

I had friends *****ing moaning about this on FaceBook after the rockets game. I posted the same response on all...."The only problem you should have with this issue is a player many consider to be a superstar in the NBA can't make 50% of his free throws, he's a professional shooting free shots. He has to prove he can make them pay for this, until then get used to it."

Baller1
12-07-2012, 06:27 PM
It'd be ****ing hilarious watching Dwight runaway from the other players to avoid getting fouled.

Greedy22
12-07-2012, 06:30 PM
:laugh2: I was only kidding, but was thinking about how awesome that'd be the other night.

Raidaz4Life
12-07-2012, 06:31 PM
I understand that. But if a player is so awful at shooting FT's, and the rules state that an off the ball foul sends that player to the line, why wouldn't a defense employ that tactic, so they can indeed stop what you are saying can occur, ie, more points most likely against them?

I agree, I don't have any problem with teams exploiting that rule. When the rockets were doing it to Dwight I wasn't crying and saying it wasn't fair or blaming that as the reason we lost. I thought it was amazingly smart by Houston because it turned the momentum in their favor.


I'm saying the rule should be changed though because the rule basically creates unnecessary parody by forcing one player on the team to win a game for you rather than letting the better team win. For example, if it was a Lakers/Celtics playoff game from 3 years ago and Rondo and Garnett were running a pick and role... Garnett is setting a good hard screen everytime on Fisher and Pau is too slow to pick up Rondo so Rondo blows by for a layup. Lets say that play is working everytime down the stretch and the Laker's can't make the adjustment to stop it so they start intentionally fouling Tony Allen to avoid any potential "and 1's" on Rondo. Allen is shooting 70% from the line which theoretically speaking would be astounding from the field.... but since he has to make 2 to equal 1 point.... its really not that impressive. And not nearly as beneficial to the Celtics as their domination by running their offense. So instead of blowing away the Lakers because they are the superior team, the game is staying close because it comes down to the Lakers vs Tony Allen's FT shooting. Not only that but the Lakers are taking 3 pointers and catching up where as the Celtics are only able to get 2 points per possession possible.



I'm not saying this scenario is likely or entirely realistic.... I'm simply arguing the precedent that intentional fouling is a bail out for teams that are failing to make adjustments on the defensive end and its not fair to a team to have the entire outcome of their game rely on 1 player regardless of how good he is.

knicksfan42
12-07-2012, 06:45 PM
I agree, I don't have any problem with teams exploiting that rule. When the rockets were doing it to Dwight I wasn't crying and saying it wasn't fair or blaming that as the reason we lost. I thought it was amazingly smart by Houston because it turned the momentum in their favor.


I'm saying the rule should be changed though because the rule basically creates unnecessary parody by forcing one player on the team to win a game for you rather than letting the better team win. For example, if it was a Lakers/Celtics playoff game from 3 years ago and Rondo and Garnett were running a pick and role... Garnett is setting a good hard screen everytime on Fisher and Pau is too slow to pick up Rondo so Rondo blows by for a layup. Lets say that play is working everytime down the stretch and the Laker's can't make the adjustment to stop it so they start intentionally fouling Tony Allen to avoid any potential "and 1's" on Rondo. Allen is shooting 70% from the line which theoretically speaking would be astounding from the field.... but since he has to make 2 to equal 1 point.... its really not that impressive. And not nearly as beneficial to the Celtics as their domination by running their offense. So instead of blowing away the Lakers because they are the superior team, the game is staying close because it comes down to the Lakers vs Tony Allen's FT shooting. Not only that but the Lakers are taking 3 pointers and catching up where as the Celtics are only able to get 2 points per possession possible.



I'm not saying this scenario is likely or entirely realistic.... I'm simply arguing the precedent that intentional fouling is a bail out for teams that are failing to make adjustments on the defensive end and its not fair to a team to have the entire outcome of their game rely on 1 player regardless of how good he is.


What the Celtcis could do in that situation is take Toney Allen out. That is also what the Lakers could do with Dwight.


I'm simply arguing the precedent that Stern's proposal could set is a bail out for teams that are failing to make adjustments on the offensive end and its not fair to a team to have the entire outcome of their game rely on 1 player regardless of how good he is.


Its basketball strategy, give and take. At the end of games our coach plays Novak for offense Brewer for defense. Each one sucks on one side of the court, but that's the strategical risk our coach takes. I wish we could automatically stop the game and switch one for the other every time we're playing on a different end, but we can't and we shouldn't be able to.

Sssmush
12-07-2012, 06:49 PM
i've always thought it was an interesting rule.

usually when someone commits a foul that isn't a foul on the ball, it is a flagrant I. with the exception to intentional fouls off the ball, as we all know. there must be some wiggle room in the language of the text :shrug:

i've always hated watching hack-a-big. it's boring basketball.

yes ^^

This hack-a-Shaq thing is something the league and the refs are kind of actively let happen: the player or coach tells the refs "we're going to give an intentional foul" and then the player gives a token foul against Dwight away from the ball, and the ref blows the whistle.

If the refs weren't told or didn't listen to the "hey, the next foul is intentional" warning, then the players would have to meaningfully foul the player away from the ball to get the referees attention. Which should be a flagrant 1.

End of story. Why should the refs award the "intentional" fouls freely? Because it spares the offensive player from getting hit hard? Tell those wussy-ish hack-a-Shaq teams to bring it.

GSWJunkie
12-07-2012, 06:49 PM
Seriously, like this has to be directed at Dwight and LA's poor start. Anyway like how often does it happen like 2-3 possessions down the floor at most. It's not like teams are doing the whole 4th quarter. It's strategy just let it play out or learn how to shoot a damn FT, they're free for a reason.

What's next telling teams when they have to sub?

Actually, it happens a lot more often than this. Last year in the Warriors game against Orlando (when they still had DH12) he shot a NBA record 39 something free throws. MJ had integrated the hack-a-Dwight strategy for most of the 2nd and 3rd quarters which completely ruined nearly half the game and he kept doing it despite the fact that at one point Dwight made 10 consecutive shots. He kept doing it and sacrificing fouls on multiple members of the team and it did little to detract the Magic from beating us anyway. So basically, it ruined the game by bringing it to a screaming crawl, DH12 made a bunch of free throws and we still lost the damn game. It did nothing to give any edge to my team.

I absolutely hate when any coach uses any kind of hack-any-player strategy. Nelly did this a **** load of times while he was here too, so I have been seeing this crap over and over again for years, so in my honest opinion, teams should be penalized for hacking-a-anyone because I absolutely hate suffering through a game in which any team does this for extended minutes! I think the rule should be expanded, but not for the entire game like Stern wants. Maybe the last 6 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters or something along those lines.

Personally, I think the best way to get a player out of the game who is killing your team, is to put a ton of fouls on them by relentlessly attacking them and drawing fouls on them. Why any coach approaches this in any other way is difficult for me to fathom.

Sssmush
12-07-2012, 06:52 PM
I personally always enjoy it when, for instance, the Lakers have a two point lead and Kobe gets the inbounds, and the defensive player tries to foul him and put him on the line, and Kobe dribbles around and past him while the defensive player flails at his arms, and the ref doesn't call anything and Kobe is able to make another pass or drive to the hoop.

Like, if you aren't even good enough to give a solid foul, if you have to tell the refs "hey, please call a foul for us" then really, why should we stick up for that?

Raidaz4Life
12-07-2012, 06:56 PM
What the Celtcis could do in that situation is take Toney Allen out. That is also what the Lakers could do with Dwight.


I'm simply arguing the precedent that Stern's proposal could set is a bail out for teams that are failing to make adjustments on the offensive end and its not fair to a team to have the entire outcome of their game rely on 1 player regardless of how good he is.


Its basketball strategy, give and take. At the end of games our coach plays Novak for offense Brewer for defense. Each one sucks on one side of the court, but that's the strategical risk our coach takes. I wish we could automatically stop the game and switch one for the other, but we can't and we shouldn't be able to.

So the Celtics should have to take out their best defensive player on the floor because there is a rule that allows teams to force their defensive specialist to provide all the offense for their team? How is that fair?


If a player wants to be a defensive specialist then who are we to say he has to also learn to shoot free throws because the Celtics aren't allowed to run an offense otherwise. If they aren't making a play for the ball I don't see how anyone can argue the rule is anything but unsportsmanlike.

Lakers + Giants
12-07-2012, 07:01 PM
its pathetic that a professional basketball player cant shoot 50% from the line

lol all the lakers fans voting yes

Look at where I voted. . . :cool:

knicksfan42
12-07-2012, 07:07 PM
So the Celtics should have to take out their best defensive player on the floor because there is a rule that allows teams to force their defensive specialist to provide all the offense for their team? How is that fair?


If a player wants to be a defensive specialist then who are we to say he has to also learn to shoot free throws because the Celtics aren't allowed to run an offense otherwise.

The Celtics should have to take out there defensive specialist, because he can't hit fts and they need players on the court who can hit FTs.


On the one hand Allen is a defensive specialist on the other hand he can't shoot fts. The coach at that moment should decide what is more important for his team. Each player has things he does well and things he doesn't do so well, that is the give and take of basketball. Yes Doc Rivers can't have his cake and eat it too in the Allen scenario. He has to decide what is more important.



Oh and lets be real, hack-a plays happen almost entirely to one player, Dwight. Because he is on another level of awful shooting Fts. The reason it has never actually happened to Toney Allen is because coaches aren't willing to risk a 70% FT shooter going to the line when the game is on the line.



You want Dwight's defense and rebounding, you can have it, but you have to take his embarrassing free throw shooting with it.

Doogolas
12-07-2012, 07:10 PM
You guys realize it's not as easy as "learn to shoot a free throw" right? Guys with huge ****ing hands have a much harder time with free throws because of the way the ball sits in their hands.

Raidaz4Life
12-07-2012, 07:13 PM
The Celtics should have to take out there defensive specialist, because he can't hit fts and they need players on the court who can hit FTs.


On the one hand Allen is a defensive specialist on the other hand he can't shoot fts. The coach at that moment should decide what is more important for his team. Each player has things he does well and things he doesn't do so well, that is the give and take of basketball. Yes Doc Rivers can't have his cake and eat it too in the Allen scenario. He has to decide what is more important.



Oh and lets be real, for the most part hack-a plays happen almost entirely to one player, Dwight. Because he is on another level of awful shooting Fts. The reason it has never actually happened to Toney Allen is because coaches aren't willing to risk a 70% FT shooter going to the line when the game is on the line.



You want Dwight's defense and rebounding, you can have it, but you have to take his embarrassing free throw shooting with it.


I guess the real issue here is whether or not you view free throws as an integral part of the game or not. Clearly most people think they are where as I do not. I view free throws as an necessary penalty for using means beyond the rules to prevent or limit a player's ability to make or create a shot opportunity. I don't think the idea behind basketball should be nothing more than a free throw shooting contest.... which is virtually what you turn it into by allowing intentional fouls. Hell you're taking away the entire defensive aspect of the game and throwing it out the window. How is that beneficial for the integrity of the game?

Hunter48MVP
12-07-2012, 07:18 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

yeah really helped us in the Chris Paul trade

JasonJohnHorn
12-07-2012, 07:19 PM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

This.


Seriously? Come on... learn to shoot a fracking free throw. The league is going to start handicaping the game in favour of star players who have deficiencies in their game?

The league used to make rules to prevent the truly great players from dominating, now Stern wants to make rules to make it easier for the players he likes?


Stern can go phuq himself.

mamba24
12-07-2012, 07:20 PM
Dont know if this was mentioned earlier, but what if the team that was fouled had the option to take the ball out rather than shoot the free throws? That still gives the other team the option to still use it as a strategy to slow the pace of the game but also helps the team being fouled by putting them closer to the penalty.

Raidaz4Life
12-07-2012, 07:21 PM
This.


Seriously? Come on... learn to shoot a fracking free throw. The league is going to start handicaping the game in favour of star players who have deficiencies in their game?

The league used to make rules to prevent the truly great players from dominating, now Stern wants to make rules to make it easier for the players he likes?


Stern can go phuq himself.

As opposed to handicapping the game for poor defensive teams?

tr3ymill3r
12-07-2012, 07:23 PM
Sounds as if Stern wants to help Dwight put on his big boy pants.

mamba24
12-07-2012, 07:24 PM
Why is nobody mentioning him calling it "the special olympics of free throw shooting"? How is that acceptable in our age of political correctness? That's so ****ing offensive.

I am sick of everyone being so politically correct lol. Im not offended at all and I have a nephew who participates in the Special Olympics. Love that kid.

Kyben36
12-07-2012, 07:27 PM
Honestly, for me, if you cant make free throws thats your problem, just like if you cant shoot 3s your left open from deep and people sag off, whats next stern, telling people you have to play Rondo to his chest and cant sag off of him at the 3pt line. if stern trys to eneact somethign im done with the nba.

Puck017
12-07-2012, 07:28 PM
If anything I think the NBA should have a second foul penalty that only occurs in the final two minutes. Take the average number of fouls that occur in an NBA quarter and use a multiplier to limit how many times it can be done before triggering the second penalty. How often a team has fouled in the 4th quarter would have a direct affect on how many times they could do this. Once the second penalty is reached the coach has the freedom of choice. Either the player fouled gets their free throws or they can inbound the ball. It may also be worth considering that the team being fouled is the only one that can substitute players as a result of t he fouls (not the free throw shooter though).

petersmagic12
12-07-2012, 07:29 PM
You guys realize it's not as easy as "learn to shoot a free throw" right? Guys with huge ****ing hands have a much harder time with free throws because of the way the ball sits in their hands.

and short guys cant block the tall guys so no one one 6 foot 7 should be playing basketball. Lets just cater to everyone's weaknesses in the NBA and everything should be ok. Thats ridiculous Not every big man is a bad free throw shooter.

Brook lopez, paul gasol, dirk, Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Owlajuan all can or were able to shoot free throws at least at a percentage of 70 or better. I don't expect guys like Dwight, Ben Wallace,and others to shoot 95 percent like steve nash and JJ Reddick but they should at least be able to shoot 65 percent or better. And to change a rule to cater to a few players is ridiculous in my eyes. Thats like saying lets move the 3pt line closer so some more people can make it. If These players shoot at least 65% or better guaranteed this would not even be under debate.

This isnt the Harlem Globetrotters games, This is the NBA David Stern Start acting like it is.

MickeyMgl
12-07-2012, 07:38 PM
I propose that all intentional fouls at any time of the game are the old school "3 to make 2". You get three chances to make two free throws. That is actually less of a penalty than "two free throws plus the ball", but it also provides some disincentive to just turn the game into a free throw shooting contest.

My main thing is that I'd like the rules, whatever they are, to be the same for all 48 minutes. I don't want the game to be bogged down by intentional fouling, but I don't want to let bad free throw shooters completely off the hook.

topdog
12-07-2012, 07:40 PM
So the Celtics should have to take out their best defensive player on the floor because there is a rule that allows teams to force their defensive specialist to provide all the offense for their team? How is that fair?


If a player wants to be a defensive specialist then who are we to say he has to also learn to shoot free throws because the Celtics aren't allowed to run an offense otherwise. If they aren't making a play for the ball I don't see how anyone can argue the rule is anything but unsportsmanlike.

It's not as if the free throws are the only penalty a team faces when they intentionally foul. Their players are charged with personal fouls which affects who they have in the game and also puts the other team in the penalty meaning unintentional fouls on Nash result in him always going to the line for 2.

There's a reason these things are called "free throws" and I think it says a lot about who comprises the league when we don't expect guys to hit a decent chunk of them.

PleaseBeNice
12-07-2012, 07:42 PM
Anything else Dwight needs catered to him?????? Please let us know how we can help you Dwight!

Raidaz4Life
12-07-2012, 07:43 PM
It's not as if the free throws are the only penalty a team faces when they intentionally foul. Their players are charged with personal fouls which affects who they have in the game and also puts the other team in the penalty meaning unintentional fouls on Nash result in him always going to the line for 2.

There's a reason these things are called "free throws" and I think it says a lot about who comprises the league when we don't expect guys to hit a decent chunk of them.

No argument, but you can get up to 30 fouls by just using 5 random nobodies on the bench fouling for you.... do you really want to see 30 intentional fouls in a game?


Also, do you think its fair if your team is down by 3 at the end of the game and they foul you so you can't shoot the 3 pointer and tie it?

topdog
12-07-2012, 07:43 PM
You guys realize it's not as easy as "learn to shoot a free throw" right? Guys with huge ****ing hands have a much harder time with free throws because of the way the ball sits in their hands.

Don't we? When I shoot a nerf ball into a nerf hoop, my hand cradles the ball like a big man and I can make at least 9 out of 10 just F'n around. Now, is that exactly the same? No, but I would argue its much easier to shoot one-handed with that kind of control than two handed when you can just palm the ball.

The "hands are too big" argument is :bs: in my book.

ztilzer31
12-07-2012, 07:44 PM
Its easy.

Call a technical.

2 shots AND then possesion of the ball.

OMG I LOVE YOU. I've been saying this for years especially when people are intentionally fouling at the end of the game. Makes basketball games so damn boring at the end. I want a fast pace finish, not strategic fouling.

topdog
12-07-2012, 07:49 PM
No argument, but you can get up to 30 fouls by just using 5 random nobodies on the bench fouling for you.... do you really want to see 30 intentional fouls in a game?


Also, do you think its fair if your team is down by 3 at the end of the game and you foul them so they can't shoot the 3 pointer and tie it?

1. The nobodies can be planned for. When you see them come in, you have coach draw up a play to take advantage of their defensive deficiencies with something towards the rim and/or force the ball into their hands on their offensive possession (which may force them to at least burn a timeout).

2. That's a risk and a matter of whether you trust not that you can win the exchange at the line as they are likely to foul you and/or could steal the inbounds.

To me, it's strategy and there is a reason it is employed rarely. The first time Nelson used it against Rodman was an absolute flop.

Raidaz4Life
12-07-2012, 07:51 PM
1. The nobodies can be planned for. When you see them come in, you have coach draw up a play to take advantage of their defensive deficiencies with something towards the rim and/or force the ball into their hands on their offensive possession (which may force them to at least burn a timeout).

2. That's a risk and a matter of whether you trust not that you can win the exchange at the line as they are likely to foul you and/or could steal the inbounds.

To me, it's strategy and there is a reason it is employed rarely. The first time Nelson used it against Rodman was an absolute flop.

How? They are immediately hacking so no offensive play ever happens.



I would accept a compromise of the team being fouled gets to decide if they want the free throws or taking the ball in from half court.

LOOTERX9
12-07-2012, 08:01 PM
I propose that all intentional fouls at any time of the game are the old school "3 to make 2". You get three chances to make two free throws. That is actually less of a penalty than "two free throws plus the ball", but it also provides some disincentive to just turn the game into a free throw shooting contest.

My main thing is that I'd like the rules, whatever they are, to be the same for all 48 minutes. I don't want the game to be bogged down by intentional fouling, but I don't want to let bad free throw shooters completely off the hook.

Yes I like your plan the best.. I don't like away from the ball fouls even when it's unintentional. It slows the game down and makes game boring. Stern has a point. Stern is not helping Dwight as much as he is trying to keep flow of game going without it becoming a free throw shooting contest.

TheRazorboy
12-07-2012, 08:03 PM
The "hands are too big" argument is :bs: in my book.

Of course it is. Somehow Durant, Nowitzki, Vandeweghe, etc. seemed to have figured it out.

topdog
12-07-2012, 08:07 PM
How? They are immediately hacking so no offensive play ever happens.



I would accept a compromise of the team being fouled gets to decide if they want the free throws or taking the ball in from half court.

Out of bounds play if they are in half court or pass it to whoever is near the designated fouler to put up a shot thereby forcing them to risk giving up more points.

Additionally, players can intentionally miss free throws to give their team an offensive rebounding advantage.

And, again, late game situation could be exchanges of free throws.

I don't see any perfect solution other than guys learning to make a simple shot.

Chronz
12-07-2012, 08:10 PM
Don't we? When I shoot a nerf ball into a nerf hoop, my hand cradles the ball like a big man and I can make at least 9 out of 10 just F'n around. Now, is that exactly the same? No, but I would argue its much easier to shoot one-handed with that kind of control than two handed when you can just palm the ball.

The "hands are too big" argument is :bs: in my book.
LOL are you being serious?

Chronz
12-07-2012, 08:13 PM
Of course it is. Somehow Durant, Nowitzki, Vandeweghe, etc. seemed to have figured it out.
Somehow Im not convinced by your sample size.

Nobody ever said you cant become a good shooter with bigger hands just like nobody ever says you cant become a good ball handler with smaller hands, but to act like it doesnt play a factor is idiotic.

topdog
12-07-2012, 08:16 PM
LOL are you being serious?

Sort of. I have no way of actually making my hands big enough to shoot a full-sized ball with my fingers curled around it. The closest I can come is a nerf or softball on a to-scale rim.

With a regular ball on a regular rim, I learned to shoot free throws with one hand. It was fairly effective for me with the complaint that my hand was not big enough to give it full stability on the way up.

topdog
12-07-2012, 08:19 PM
If you can hit a hook shot with big hands, you should be able to hit a free throw with big hands.

TheRazorboy
12-07-2012, 08:21 PM
Somehow Im not convinced by your sample size.

Nobody ever said you cant become a good shooter with bigger hands just like nobody ever says you cant become a good ball handler with smaller hands, but to act like it doesnt play a factor is idiotic.

I was just going with big guys off of the top of my head who I knew were historically high on the free throw percentage list. I'll do more research when I have more time.

Chronz
12-07-2012, 08:23 PM
Sort of. I have no way of actually making my hands big enough to shoot a full-sized ball with my fingers curled around it. The closest I can come is a nerf or softball on a to-scale rim.

With a regular ball on a regular rim, I learned to shoot free throws with one hand. It was fairly effective for me with the complaint that my hand was not big enough to give it full stability on the way up.

Dwight can do the same. Things change during game time. You wouldnt be so good when dealing with mental/physical fatigue. And who knows, maybe you have great hand eye coordination, it differs from person to person and is mostly honed during ones youth (When most bigmen should be learning how to bang on the blocks than working on finesse game).

Ive said this twice this week but its not as easy as just improving this late in the game, it can be done but its not as simple as putting in the effort. Some players got worse the more they tried. There are lots of factors at play here, dont just assume players are all oafs.

gwrighter
12-07-2012, 08:26 PM
No need to compensate a lack of skill. VERY against this rule.

Chronz
12-07-2012, 08:27 PM
I was just going with big guys off of the top of my head who I knew were historically high on the free throw percentage list. I'll do more research when I have more time.

Got hand size stats handy?

Cuz I have a theory that I would like to support so let me know if you get those numbers. Those first set of names kind of support my theory, it has to do with shooters vs interior players.

topdog
12-07-2012, 08:28 PM
Dwight can do the same. Things change during game time. You wouldnt be so good when dealing with mental/physical fatigue. And who knows, maybe you have great hand eye coordination, it differs from person to person and is mostly honed during ones youth (When most bigmen should be learning how to bang on the blocks than working on finesse game).

Ive said this twice this week but its not as easy as just improving this late in the game, it can be done but its not as simple as putting in the effort. Some players got worse the more they tried. There are lots of factors at play here, dont just assume players are all oafs.

I'm not assuming players are oafs. I'm saying that I don't buy the argument that big hands are detrimental to making set shots.

I also would agree that sometimes these guys get so much advice that that is an issue in-it-of-itself.

Finally, I will say that I was terrible at basketball in my youth and didn't play organized basketball until 8th grade. I was taught to shoot one-handed in 9th grade to establish a feel for the motion. I have improved greatly on my own since then despite some difficulty and setbacks at times. I came late to the game, but I was able to work my issues out simply as a hobby - not saying it's just putting in work, but that I wasn't taught young.

torocan
12-07-2012, 08:37 PM
Sorry, but the "big hands" excuse for bigger players just doesn't cut it, especially when it's been stated that Dwight is shooting 80% FT in the gym.

And teams DO get penalized for fouling... it's called HAVING A FOUL and 2 FT's. Get 6 fouls, and the player has to sit. That sure sounds like a penalty to me.

If the team Front Office gets a Big man who can't FT shoot, then you have to CHOOSE between his Defense and his FT shooting if the other team starts Fouling. That's how it works for Everyone. Make 60% of your FT's and nobody would bother except in close clock situations.

When the clock is down and the score is Close, teams sub out BAD shooters to avoid being fouled. They make a CHOICE. There are a TON of close games that come down to FT's, including playoffs and Championship games.

It's part of the game, and changing the rules because Dwight can't get past his Psychological block is NOT a good reason.

And if he really cared that much, he'd shoot Granny style. However, he does NOT care that much. Neither do Most other NBA players with poor FT shooting.

It's stupid to alter the LONG standing rules on Fouls just because Dwight can't sink a FREE shot at the line and is too proud to go Granny style.

Hawkeye15
12-07-2012, 08:37 PM
You guys realize it's not as easy as "learn to shoot a free throw" right? Guys with huge ****ing hands have a much harder time with free throws because of the way the ball sits in their hands.

I don't buy it. When I would shoot with a mini-ball for instance, it just took a quick adjustment. I realize not all people can shoot a ball well, no matter what, but there is no excuse on not being able to make well over half your free throws.

Dr. J had enormous hands. Shot 77% for his career.

kobe4thewinbang
12-08-2012, 06:33 AM
Y'all are missing the point, a point others haven't missed in the past. To quote them, "it shames the sport."

Yeah, it can add suspense to a close game, but at the end of the day, it's not about the free throws or Dwight Howard being a moron. It's about people intentionally fouling because they've already lost the game so they need the ball back immediately to hoist up a stupid 3. It extends games far too long and frankly it's annoying as hell to watch.

"Oh, pass, pass, pass, you can't foul me, ha-ha, oh dang, you fouled me, with 4.8 left on the clock."

Is this tag or basketball?

The better team already has the lead, regardless of bad officiating, then they get fouled, and a 3 might clang in by the other team. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Then they're down by 1, only to foul AGAIN, and the other team makes both free throws, or just one of two, giving the disgraceful team a desperation 3 point shot attempt to steal, I mean, win the game!

The same should be said for intentionally missing free throws, whether you have the lead and are trying to keep the other team from getting a good shot off before time expires, or you need 2/3 points instead of 1 more with barely any time left on the clock.

If there's 10 seconds left in the game and you're behind, shoot the ball like a respectable team and run the full court press to see what happens on defense. But don't resort to cowardly fouls because you can't accept defeat.

If an intentional foul is committed at any point during the game, the culprit should be ejected, or given a technical foul AND the other team should get the ball back.

This article is right on the money: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1205271-nba-rules-stopping-the-late-game-intentional-foul

Alayla
12-08-2012, 07:19 AM
Wow.. Worst Idea ever.

NYKNYGNYY
12-08-2012, 07:55 AM
Free throws are part of the game od your in the NBA u should be able to shoot free throws ...I'm for hack a shaq its strategy

lamar2006
12-08-2012, 08:36 AM
i think stern has helped the lakers enough over the years

I veto your statement.

ewing
12-08-2012, 09:14 AM
OMG players who lack a fundamental skill hurt there team

Not only do i think the NBA should get rid of the final 2 mins BS i think the first 3 fouls after you reach the bonus should be a 1 and 1

They changed the rule solely for Shaq to start with. It ridiculousness.

Kinkotheclown
12-08-2012, 09:27 AM
Another reason Stern is an *******. That guy is stronger than my guy and can grab the ball out of his hands when they both go for a rebound, there should be a rule against that. My guard can't defend the 3 so your player can't take 3's.

Isn't the point of a sports to exploit the weakness of the other team so that they have to change what they are doing and it takes them out of their comfort zone?
That is unless you have identical teams, which there aren't.

They are paid to play basketball. If players chose to ignore and integral part of the game or decide they don't want to work harder at that part of the game, that is their fault.
I have a feeling if howard took a few hundred free throws a day, he would become a decent, 70% free throw shooter. It would be enough to get teams to stop.

But it would take time and effort. Some players don't want to make that effort. I'm not saying he is or isn't a hard worker. It's not an indictment of his work ethic. It is a question of where that effort goes and how much extra he wants to put in to be better.

Here's a better idea. How about his team getting on him. How about teams that sign horrible free throw shooters put in an incentive, a big incentive for shooting above a certain percent.

If he makes the shots, they will stop. Make the shots Dwight. The league shouldn't change because of your ineptitude. You should be embarrassed by that shortcoming and work to change the outcome at the line.

rabzouz 96
12-08-2012, 09:39 AM
let the fouled team free choice of their free throw shooter between the current players on the field regardless of whos fouled during the last 2 minutes or for all off the ball fouls and keep the rest as it is.

NFLNBA
12-08-2012, 10:04 AM
I think they should get rid of the hack a shaq crap any way they can. Its a complete ****** move anyway but it makes the game Boring, slow, and unwatchable. I remember teams fouling splitter on purpose in the first quarter of games. You shouldn't be able to could a person off the ball on purpose. If the ball is in there hands okay but otherwise its pathetic

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-08-2012, 12:36 PM
gee i wonder which option laker fans would vote for.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 12:45 PM
gee i wonder which option laker fans would vote for.

that is what I said earlier. They had the player this rule was made for, and now have another dominant big who sucks at FT's. Of course Laker fans would love to have a 2+ball on each foul for the most part, which is why most of them I don't listen to on this subject.

Fact is, if your guy sucks at FT's, take his *** out late in games, or tell him to get better at a simple aspect of the game.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-08-2012, 01:15 PM
that is what I said earlier. They had the player this rule was made for, and now have another dominant big who sucks at FT's. Of course Laker fans would love to have a 2+ball on each foul for the most part, which is why most of them I don't listen to on this subject.

Fact is, if your guy sucks at FT's, take his *** out late in games, or tell him to get better at a simple aspect of the game.

exactly.
they have the 2 min rule in place so it doesnt get in the way of a crunch time game when it comes down to the wire.

its foolish to tamper with a coaching style, if dwight cant hit his fts. tough luck.

akagiredsuns
12-08-2012, 01:36 PM
kobe4thewinbang has a point. It's cowardly and just extends games unnecessarily. I for one am for the rule change. It does not shame the sport. It puts teams that are trailing late in the game on notice that intentional fouling off the ball for no reason is unacceptable. I prefer it for an entire game, but since it's most common in the last 2 minutes, that's fine too. Fans will learn to live with it. You don't like it. Don't watch the NBA anymore. Rules change in all sports over time. DEAL WITH IT.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 01:37 PM
kobe4thewinbang has a point. It's cowardly and just extends games unnecessarily. I for one am for the rule change. It does not shame the sport. It puts teams that are trailing late in the game on notice that intentional fouling off the ball for no reason is unacceptable. I prefer it for an entire game, but since it's most common in the last 2 minutes, that's fine too. Fans will learn to live with it. You don't like it. Don't watch the NBA anymore. Rules change in all sports over time. DEAL WITH IT.

or Dwight could just improve his FT shooting..

whitemamba33
12-08-2012, 01:42 PM
The game has evolved so much - do you really believe if all it took was some extra hours in the gym and some special coaching, that this many big men would still have trouble hitting free throws? I'm sure somebody somewhere down the line would have realized that they could get an extra 5+ppg if they just worked on them a little bit.

I don't see how people can dispute the relationship between size and free throw shooting percentage. Yes there are some oddballs, but for the most part, you don't see too many big fellas shooting 74-76%, which is usually the league average. Saying "but this guy did it" and "I swear, I can hit 9 of 10 with a nerf ball" doesn't really cut it for me.

netsgiantsyanks
12-08-2012, 01:42 PM
or you should work on your free throws instead of getting a cop out from mr. commissioner.

sep11ie
12-08-2012, 01:43 PM
So let's change the game so that lazy superstars that don't want to work on boring things like FT's can look better. Makes sense.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 01:44 PM
Sabonis is a great example. Huge man, shot 78% from the line. Maybe if our youth coaching would ask the kids to work on their FT's, and post moves after practice, instead of having a dunk-off with the other guys, we wouldn't have such poorly skilled big men coming out of our youth programs.

Chronz
12-08-2012, 02:19 PM
Sabonis is a great example. Huge man, shot 78% from the line. Maybe if our youth coaching would ask the kids to work on their FT's, and post moves after practice, instead of having a dunk-off with the other guys, we wouldn't have such poorly skilled big men coming out of our youth programs.
Thats one theory but I have a hard time believing kids are having dunk off contests with AAU .

Chronz
12-08-2012, 02:25 PM
I'm not assuming players are oafs. I'm saying that I don't buy the argument that big hands are detrimental to making set shots.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I dont know of any way to examine this. I tend to side with Reggie Miller on the hands theory, I think he knows a thing or 2 about shooting.


I also would agree that sometimes these guys get so much advice that that is an issue in-it-of-itself.
Thats why I dont think you should be telling people what to work on when its possible that people put in effort and get worse.


Finally, I will say that I was terrible at basketball in my youth and didn't play organized basketball until 8th grade. I was taught to shoot one-handed in 9th grade to establish a feel for the motion. I have improved greatly on my own since then despite some difficulty and setbacks at times. I came late to the game, but I was able to work my issues out simply as a hobby - not saying it's just putting in work, but that I wasn't taught young.
Im just saying there are alot of factors at play, its not as simple as just going out and working on it.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 02:27 PM
Thats one theory but I have a hard time believing kids are having dunk off contests with AAU .

you know what I mean. Instead of our youth coaches teaching players the fundamentals of basketball, we are so hyped up on promoting individual players here, versus in Europe, where everyone learns how to shoot, dribble, pass, etc at an early age. Obviously some people have limits on how fundamentally skilled they can become in various parts of the game, but my god, how do you make it to the NBA with form like Marion, or the non-existant ability to hit free throws?

That comes from catering, instead of developing.

Chronz
12-08-2012, 02:27 PM
Sorry, but the "big hands" excuse for bigger players just doesn't cut it, especially when it's been stated that Dwight is shooting 80% FT in the gym.
Odd, I feel thats a great example of why its not just about effort. Dwight has been working on his free throws and it pays off in practice, games are so much different tho.




And if he really cared that much, he'd shoot Granny style. However, he does NOT care that much. Neither do Most other NBA players with poor FT shooting.
Yea I wish we could see them at least try it but I just think it must not be much of an improvement in practice.

Chronz
12-08-2012, 02:30 PM
you know what I mean.
No I really dont.



Instead of our youth coaches teaching players the fundamentals of basketball, we are so hyped up on promoting individual players here, versus in Europe, where everyone learns how to shoot, dribble, pass, etc at an early age. Obviously some people have limits on how fundamentally skilled they can become in various parts of the game, but my god, how do you make it to the NBA with form like Marion, or the non-existant ability to hit free throws?
Yea I dont buy that opinion, Ive always felt any time developing an aspect of your game or honing any one skill comes at the expense of ignoring another.


That comes from catering, instead of developing.
I dont see what you mean nor do I know how to challenge that opinion. Agree to disagree I guess.

Chronz
12-08-2012, 02:32 PM
I don't buy it. When I would shoot with a mini-ball for instance, it just took a quick adjustment.
Yea, Dwight does pretty good in practice too.


I realize not all people can shoot a ball well, no matter what, but there is no excuse on not being able to make well over half your free throws.

But there are excuses, very valid ones. Its not just about effort and there are various factors at play, hand size included.


Dr. J had enormous hands. Shot 77% for his career.
Thats kind of low for a perimeter player aint it? I mean I dont think he spent his days learning how to master the post game and the fact that his jumper was always inconsistent kind of deflates the theory that hand size doesnt matter, at least to me.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 02:35 PM
No I really dont.



Yea I dont buy that opinion, Ive always felt any time developing an aspect of your game or honing any one skill comes at the expense of ignoring another.


I dont see what you mean nor do I know how to challenge that opinion. Agree to disagree I guess.

I just flipped over to look at the all time best seasons for centers, FT shooting. You will never guess what the pattern is...

SanAntonioSpurs23
12-08-2012, 02:42 PM
This is just Stern trying to slurp the Lakers like normal.

Simple solution honestly. Tiago Splitter was an awful FT shooter last year, and over the smer he worked on it and now he shoots around 75%

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-08-2012, 02:43 PM
i guess being able to block out all things mentally and practicing on ur fts go hand in hand. not sure what other variables fall into play..

Chronz
12-08-2012, 02:52 PM
I just flipped over to look at the all time best seasons for centers, FT shooting. You will never guess what the pattern is...

The primary function of their talent as ball players comes by way of outside shooting?

scaramantula
12-08-2012, 02:53 PM
2 shots and the ball? seems a little much, maybe one shot and the ball?

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 02:57 PM
The primary function of their talent as ball players comes by way of outside shooting?

warmer...

Lets just say there weren't a lot of high flyers. I truly believe we don't develop our youth players the way we need to. Much more of the unathletic kids figure out they better start becoming skilled, since they can't dunk on people.

Chronz
12-08-2012, 02:57 PM
i guess being able to block out all things mentally and practicing on ur fts go hand in hand. not sure what other variables fall into play..

Yea but its pretty hard for players to improve this late in the game. Not impossible but my theory is that, since hand eye coordination is honed during ones youth, what they focused on developing during their young stages becomes the staple of their game and unless they were out there working on their jumper or other guard oriented skills, its pretty hard to improve your ability to shoot.

Thats why David Thorpe has a hard on for bigs that used to be small, because they grew up thinking they were guards only to end up versatile bigs.

Chronz
12-08-2012, 03:00 PM
warmer...

Lets just say there weren't a lot of high flyers. I truly believe we don't develop our youth players the way we need to. Much more of the unathletic kids figure out they better start becoming skilled, since they can't dunk on people.
Interesting, just as I expected, they were primarily shooters right. Do you know how many of them made leaps in FT efficiency as they aged?

Any true interior players on there?

Chronz
12-08-2012, 03:03 PM
Oh and for the record, lets not compare mere mortals to the great Sabonis. He was more alien than one of us.

maddBat
12-08-2012, 03:07 PM
would b frustrating it it were 1 of those touch fouls by accident being called.... imagine the other team getting 2 fts and the ball b/c of a touch foul when the refs call it tight. smh

Rhino
12-08-2012, 04:04 PM
There are many reasons why I can't stomache to watch the NBA in this day and age, but the main reason is David (dumb ****) Stern.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 04:16 PM
Interesting, just as I expected, they were primarily shooters right. Do you know how many of them made leaps in FT efficiency as they aged?

Any true interior players on there?

Sikma ruled the roast. Most were bigs who could get outside and shoot as well. Moses had a season around 82.5%, and was a steady improver throughout his career. Yao was up there a number of times, but yes, the main leaders were guys like Sikma, Shayes, Laimbeer, Brad Miller, Sabonis, and guys of that nature.

Mike Gminski and Moses were the only true interior guys that show up on the list. I think Gminski was a post player, if its the guy I am thinking of.

Hakeem went from the low 60's when he first came in, and 5 seasons later, started hovering in the mid 70's.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 04:16 PM
Oh and for the record, lets not compare mere mortals to the great Sabonis. He was more alien than one of us.

touche

jer3miah
12-08-2012, 04:18 PM
As a Magic fan, I was upset about them being able to do that. But as I watched and learned from Greg Popovich's strategy. Their teams only does it when they over the penalty. And seeing the Magic go from having it happening to them to doing it to an opponent. I think its a legit play. Dwight is good some days at FT and then bad others, you don't know what your gonna get. Aren't you suppost to exploit your opponents weakness??

topdog
12-08-2012, 04:28 PM
Y'all are missing the point, a point others haven't missed in the past. To quote them, "it shames the sport."

Superstar calls and players *****ing to refs on every possession "shame the sport." Intentional fouling is a strategy.


The same should be said for intentionally missing free throws, whether you have the lead and are trying to keep the other team from getting a good shot off before time expires, or you need 2/3 points instead of 1 more with barely any time left on the clock.

If there's 10 seconds left in the game and you're behind, shoot the ball like a respectable team and run the full court press to see what happens on defense. But don't resort to cowardly fouls because you can't accept defeat.

So, basically you're saying that if your team has the lead you want to make sure they can keep it. Intentional fouling and missing free throws is a risk teams take just like a press - which gives up easy shots when broken. I could demean the press just as easily "Oh so now that there's only 30 seconds left you decide you can't play 1-on-1? You need a gimmick defense?"

Here's what we're dealing with at the end of the day: free throws can be learned, size can't. Maybe the dunk should be outlawed? Grabbing the rim is goal tending. It's not fair that unskilled big players can dunk and skilled 6'0" guys can't.

Make free throws and play defense. That's the other thing here. If a player can't make his free throws (though 50% is still 1 point), he should at least be able to stop the other team from making their shots.

likemystylez
12-08-2012, 04:45 PM
I'm a Lakers fan, but it really does kill any flow of the games.

I understand that it's purely a strategy (a good one at that), but it really ruins any flow.

if you are a depleted orlando magic team who just lost dwight howard for garbage... and you find a way to hang in the game until the last few minutes with a laker team with 5 former all stars, career all nba performers, multiple defensive players of the year and the refs giving every possible bennefit to the lakers..... You should be able to do what it takes to secure a win regardless of what a few casual fans think of the flow.

The lakers have things they can do to counter this problem. Take dwight out of the game, crash the boards on those missed free throws, dwight make the free throws (or atleast dont sit there with a smile on your face when you are missing the free throws and losing the game for your team). Even with dwight out of the game- the lakers could field a line up that should be able to compete with the magic.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-08-2012, 04:47 PM
I think this is a bad change of rule. Can't reward players for their horrible free throw shooting.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-08-2012, 04:53 PM
Yea but its pretty hard for players to improve this late in the game. Not impossible but my theory is that, since hand eye coordination is honed during ones youth, what they focused on developing during their young stages becomes the staple of their game and unless they were out there working on their jumper or other guard oriented skills, its pretty hard to improve your ability to shoot.

Thats why David Thorpe has a hard on for bigs that used to be small, because they grew up thinking they were guards only to end up versatile bigs.

very very very good point.

Yao Ming, European players are all not put on a tight leash like how some of these young kids are in highschool/middle school here in the states.

coaches train them from such an early age to focus on playing in the post/ rim rather than focus on the overall game.

very interesting.

Vinny642
12-08-2012, 04:53 PM
My opinion is that it's tactical and should not change. If anything, get rid of the rule. It forces a team to decide if they want to keep a particular player in the game despite his liability while the other team gives up fouls and foul shots to the other team. That's fair to me.

This

Auseranami
12-08-2012, 05:21 PM
While players should be able to shoot free throws, I don't like the hack a player strategy. It basically bails teams out of having to play defense. The fouled players need to man up and make the free throws, but the foulers need to man up and play defense.

Sactown
12-08-2012, 05:21 PM
Shaq is thinking, ****, why couldn't this exist when I was playing.

Vinny642
12-08-2012, 05:45 PM
While players should be able to shoot free throws, I don't like the hack a player strategy. It basically bails teams out of having to play defense. The fouled players need to man up and make the free throws, but the foulers need to man up and play defense.

They do put themselves in the penalty early and they do risk giving free points and free fouls

Jenceman
12-08-2012, 06:08 PM
I don't buy it. When I would shoot with a mini-ball for instance, it just took a quick adjustment. I realize not all people can shoot a ball well, no matter what, but there is no excuse on not being able to make well over half your free throws.

Dr. J had enormous hands. Shot 77% for his career.

It's like you only pay attention to stats and sample sizes when they benefit your own argument. Just look at what Chronz has been saying.

topdog
12-08-2012, 06:14 PM
It's like you only pay attention to stats and sample sizes when they benefit your own argument. Just look at what Chronz has been saying.

The initial argument was about hand size. I know because I was the first to argue against it in this thread. Hawk simply was addressing the part of the argument which contends hand size correlates to shooting ability. Chronz went on to address other factors, but it started with hand size.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 06:35 PM
It's like you only pay attention to stats and sample sizes when they benefit your own argument. Just look at what Chronz has been saying.

read my other posts. I addressed it...

Hawkeye15
12-08-2012, 06:48 PM
by the way, I have heard the big hands argument for Rondo. Isn't he a PG?

likemystylez
12-08-2012, 07:04 PM
While players should be able to shoot free throws, I don't like the hack a player strategy. It basically bails teams out of having to play defense. The fouled players need to man up and make the free throws, but the foulers need to man up and play defense.

a lot of times teams do play good defense, and they do force a bad shot but the offensive player has such an advantage he can jump into people, he can kick his leg out on a jump shot or in d wades case he can just lose his balance on a spin move- and the refs will put the guy on the line.

If you are the defense you might as well take control of the situation, if the refs are gonna make a call that could cost you the game- you decide what the call is going to be.

BTW- the opposing team has the option of taking the bad free throw shooters out of the game? How is this any different than when a team isolates a missmatch or just has a big guard kill a small guard in the post. Teams have to make adjustments- its part of all sports. If dwight isnt going to learn to shoot free throws, get him off the floor. LOL its not like the lakers were a horrible team before dwight got there- they can survive with pau, kobe, and company.

MDD
12-08-2012, 08:02 PM
Omg!!!!!😩 Stern at work again!

kobe4thewinbang
12-08-2012, 09:42 PM
Superstar calls and players *****ing to refs on every possession "shame the sport." Intentional fouling is a strategy. Yeah, a cowardly one. You can't win so you have to cheat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the rules, so it's not cheating, but wake up, it's cheating.

So, basically you're saying that if your team has the lead you want to make sure they can keep it. No I'm saying if the other team can't make shots or play defense/get a stop, they should rightfully lose. What ever happened to going on a run when you're losing as opposed to fouling your way back into the contest?

Really don't understand why you can't fathom my simple argument.

It shames the game. Luckily, teams that resort to fouling their way back into the game lose more often than they win.

Losoway
12-08-2012, 10:01 PM
IS he working for the lakers ?

topdog
12-08-2012, 10:06 PM
Yeah, a cowardly one. You can't win so you have to cheat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the rules, so it's not cheating, but wake up, it's cheating.

If it's the rules then it is not cheating as cheating is "to violate rules or regulations."



No I'm saying if the other team can't make shots or play defense/get a stop, they should rightfully lose. What ever happened to going on a run when you're losing as opposed to fouling your way back into the contest?

But it's okay for a team to pass the ball around the perimeter for 20 seconds to run down the clock? It's a strategic move that says, "we can score more points against your defense than this player can score at the line unguarded." Feel however you want about that, but the only reason it "degrades" the game is because it works i.e. if guys made free throws there would be no hacking.


Really don't understand why you can't fathom my simple argument.

It shames the game. Luckily, teams that resort to fouling their way back into the game lose more often than they win.

Your argument is purely subjective and emotional. Not really sure what you expect me to debate about that :shrug:

effen5
12-08-2012, 10:19 PM
Stern just retire already

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-08-2012, 10:43 PM
I can't see how anyone would like this rule? Have you ever payed hundreds of dollars to watch someone practice free throws? If they did this in Phoenix the fans would get their money back. I hated when I was at a Laker game and they did this to Shaq. The Lakers would still win the game but I felt cheated out of my money. Basketball is supposed to be entertainment right? What is entertaining about hack a ......player?

As far as teams doing it, there is nothing wrong with it. Its like an intentional walk in baseball. They are taking a risk in doing it. They stop the clock and almost give the other team points in hopes they miss both. That almost never happens so even the worse free throw shooters hit one of two

kobe4thewinbang
12-08-2012, 10:55 PM
If it's the rules then it is not cheating as cheating is "to violate rules or regulations." Somehow I saw this weak defense coming. Thank you for taking the bait.


But it's okay for a team to pass the ball around the perimeter for 20 seconds to run down the clock?Yeah it's okay. So you're saying passing should be illegal? Let's lessen the shot clock then!


It's a strategic move that says, "we can score more points against your defense than this player can score at the line unguarded." Yeah, by jacking up a plethora of contested 3's. Anyone could do that.


Feel however you want about that, but the only reason it "degrades" the game is because it works i.e. if guys made free throws there would be no hacking. No, as I've been saying, it degrades the game because the game should be over. I'm talking about intentional fouls altogether. But no, the losing team has to foul for the next 5 minutes because they can't accept losing or score their way back into the game.


Your argument is purely subjective and emotional. Funny how a purely subjective and emotional argument is so popular with other fans of the sport. This "strategy" you praise has been looked down upon for years. Intentional fouls should be banned. Like I said, it's not tag, it's basketball. You defend, you shoot the ball, sometimes you miss, sometimes you make shots. That's the game. Not fouling like a little ***** because you're losing.

John Walls Era
12-08-2012, 11:02 PM
The rule is fine. Its boring if you're watching live, but its funny watching it on TV.

da ThRONe
12-08-2012, 11:51 PM
If he's really concerned about slowing the game down take away some timeouts.

If you really want to improve the quality of the sport take away all those back to back games and 3 in 4 nights scheduling screw jobs completely.

topdog
12-09-2012, 01:04 AM
Somehow I saw this weak defense coming. Thank you for taking the bait.

You're welcome for me pointing out you proved yourself wrong. Merry Christmas!


Yeah it's okay. So you're saying passing should be illegal? Let's lessen the shot clock then!

You're argument is that this isn't "tag." It's not "keep away" either :rolleyes:


Yeah, by jacking up a plethora of contested 3's. Anyone could do that.

People don't have to "jack up" 3s (which oddly seem to go in often - maybe that's because some guys are "clutch" shooters) against Dwight because he's only taking 1 point away from the average possession.


No, as I've been saying, it degrades the game because the game should be over. I'm talking about intentional fouls altogether. But no, the losing team has to foul for the next 5 minutes because they can't accept losing or score their way back into the game.

That makes no sense. Who says it should be over? You play the game to win. A win is a win even if it's not pretty. If a team is employing a strategy of running out the clock, then it simply makes sense to give their worst player shots and trade a 3 for 2 or 2 for 1. I don't think a lot of Lakers fans understand strategy in-game and instead rely on the front office to simply overpower teams.


Funny how a purely subjective and emotional argument is so popular with other fans of the sport. This "strategy" you praise has been looked down upon for years. Intentional fouls should be banned. Like I said, it's not tag, it's basketball. You defend, you shoot the ball, sometimes you miss, sometimes you make shots. That's the game. Not fouling like a little ***** because you're losing.

How is that funny? That's not surprising. People off have opinions and act off of those opinions emotionally and very subjectively. Obviously, it hasn't been the prevailing opinion or intentional fouling would be illegal - Stern has brought it up to the competition committee before and it hasn't passed.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-09-2012, 01:40 AM
The rule is fine. Its boring if you're watching live, but its funny watching it on TV.

Its boring watching live and its boring watching on t.v. There is no entertainment value in it at all and that is why Stern wants to get rid of the tactic. Nothing to do with the Lakers as everyone is suggesting. He brought this up to the competition committee before Howard joined the Lakers and after Shaq left. He should have brought it up 12 years ago in my opinion.

A sport is supposed to be about competition. There is nothing competitive about watching a guy practice free throws. It is bad for the game.

Guppyfighter
12-09-2012, 01:43 AM
Taking it out would be like taking the intentional walk out of baseball.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-09-2012, 01:43 AM
You're welcome for me pointing out you proved yourself wrong. Merry Christmas!



You're argument is that this isn't "tag." It's not "keep away" either :rolleyes:



People don't have to "jack up" 3s (which oddly seem to go in often - maybe that's because some guys are "clutch" shooters) against Dwight because he's only taking 1 point away from the average possession.



That makes no sense. Who says it should be over? You play the game to win. A win is a win even if it's not pretty. If a team is employing a strategy of running out the clock, then it simply makes sense to give their worst player shots and trade a 3 for 2 or 2 for 1. I don't think a lot of Lakers fans understand strategy in-game and instead rely on the front office to simply overpower teams.



How is that funny? That's not surprising. People off have opinions and act off of those opinions emotionally and very subjectively. Obviously, it hasn't been the prevailing opinion or intentional fouling would be illegal - Stern has brought it up to the competition committee before and it hasn't passed.

Would you watch a whole game of that crap? Would you want to go to a game and pay hundreds of dollars for that crap? You shouldnt want to and you shouldnt have to.

I hated when teams would intentionally walk Barry Bonds when he was at his peak (cheating) I would want to see what the pitcher could do against him and him against them. Them walking him was a b i t c h move and so is fouling a player because you dont think you could stop the other team otherwise. Its not a sport when tactics like these are being used.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-09-2012, 01:47 AM
Taking it out would be like taking the intentional walk out of baseball.

I disagree. Intentional walking has always been part of the game. And at most it slows the game down for a minute. Hack a ______ adds 10 to 15 minutes of crap to a game and totally takes the crowd out of it. It should have been prohibited from the get go but I doubt when they were writing the rule book they thought a team would actually stoop so low.

Daze9900
12-09-2012, 02:09 AM
I disagree. Intentional walking has always been part of the game. And at most it slows the game down for a minute. Hack a ______ adds 10 to 15 minutes of crap to a game and totally takes the crowd out of it. It should have been prohibited from the get go but I doubt when they were writing the rule book they thought a team would actually stoop so low.

You would say something like that; hacking should still be in play. Stern is such a hypocrite. He's always preaching and fining teams talking about he wants the NBA to put the best product on the floor...well if you're a professional basketball player you should be able to make a free throw. If you can't and the other team wants to foul you then your coach should put someone in the game who can make a free throw and let the better team win.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-09-2012, 02:20 AM
You would say something like that; hacking should still be in play. Stern is such a hypocrite. He's always preaching and fining teams talking about he wants the NBA to put the best product on the floor...well if you're a professional basketball player you should be able to make a free throw. If you can't and the other team wants to foul you then your coach should put someone in the game who can make a free throw and let the better team win.

So watching that is fun for you?

dalton749
12-09-2012, 02:27 AM
if my team wins then not only is it fun its hilarious. it promotes the fight against traffic jams as well

c.c.
12-09-2012, 02:55 AM
The pace of the game be boring also when the winning teams run around the court holding the ball til the clock expire, so what!

topdog
12-09-2012, 03:37 AM
Would you watch a whole game of that crap? Would you want to go to a game and pay hundreds of dollars for that crap? You shouldnt want to and you shouldnt have to.

I hated when teams would intentionally walk Barry Bonds when he was at his peak (cheating) I would want to see what the pitcher could do against him and him against them. Them walking him was a b i t c h move and so is fouling a player because you dont think you could stop the other team otherwise. Its not a sport when tactics like these are being used.

Absolutely! I enjoy teams who have a game plan. Why pitch to Bonds? Why not let someone else try to hurt you? Sure, it's disappointing if you're a fan who wants to see Bonds hit a jack, but it's not like he's going to get walked 3-4 times every game. He'll still get some at bats especially if his being on base hurts the opposing team.

I see you guys arguing against this with too much ego and calling it a expletive-inducing move. That's just plain low i.q. in my book. That's like telling some who lifts with their knees that its a wuss move, meanwhile you pull out your back.

Furthermore, I have a hard time taking LA fans seriously on this one because of Shaq/Dwight being on the Lakers. I don't see too many Clipper or Detroit fans complaining about their guys getting hacked.

gaughan333
12-09-2012, 03:42 AM
It's so funny that he's not even trying to hide that this game is about ratings and marketing and not the game of basketball anymore. If you can't shoot a free throw...you sit at the end of a game

Vinny642
12-09-2012, 03:45 AM
I disagree. Intentional walking has always been part of the game. And at most it slows the game down for a minute. Hack a ______ adds 10 to 15 minutes of crap to a game and totally takes the crowd out of it. It should have been prohibited from the get go but I doubt when they were writing the rule book they thought a team would actually stoop so low.

Surprised a Laker fan would defend Stern with this

gaughan333
12-09-2012, 03:47 AM
Somehow I saw this weak defense coming. Thank you for taking the bait.

Yeah it's okay. So you're saying passing should be illegal? Let's lessen the shot clock then!

Yeah, by jacking up a plethora of contested 3's. Anyone could do that.

No, as I've been saying, it degrades the game because the game should be over. I'm talking about intentional fouls altogether. But no, the losing team has to foul for the next 5 minutes because they can't accept losing or score their way back into the game.

Funny how a purely subjective and emotional argument is so popular with other fans of the sport. This "strategy" you praise has been looked down upon for years. Intentional fouls should be banned. Like I said, it's not tag, it's basketball. You defend, you shoot the ball, sometimes you miss, sometimes you make shots. That's the game. Not fouling like a little ***** because you're losing.

Your post does not contain 1 decent argument. Are you 12? I'm serious because if you are, I wont continue to make fun of you

gaughan333
12-09-2012, 03:47 AM
If he's really concerned about slowing the game down take away some timeouts.

If you really want to improve the quality of the sport take away all those back to back games and 3 in 4 nights scheduling screw jobs completely.

Or how about you take away touch fouls and "superstar calls"

Trueblue2
12-09-2012, 05:18 AM
Leave it how it is or get rid of the rule, free throws are part of the game. As much as I know this would help the Lakers it's not worth having (another) title with an asterisk.

kobe4thewinbang
12-09-2012, 05:21 AM
Your post does not contain 1 decent argument. Are you 12? I'm serious because if you are, I wont continue to make fun of youYour moronic reasoning was in full effect tonight. Wizards fouled their way back into the game, and then Warriors fouled Beal before he could shoot a 3 that might've tied the score. Intentional fouls all around! Whew! Honorable sport! Oh, and Beal also purposely bricked a free throw! All the flaws of the NBA in one game!

Guppyfighter
12-09-2012, 05:45 AM
Your moronic reasoning was in full effect tonight. Wizards fouled their way back into the game, and then Warriors fouled Beal before he could shoot a 3 that might've tied the score. Intentional fouls all around! Whew! Honorable sport! Oh, and Beal also purposely bricked a free throw! All the flaws of the NBA in one game!

I don't see how these are flaws.

Asik's better
12-09-2012, 05:54 AM
Your moronic reasoning was in full effect tonight. Wizards fouled their way back into the game, and then Warriors fouled Beal before he could shoot a 3 that might've tied the score. Intentional fouls all around! Whew! Honorable sport! Oh, and Beal also purposely bricked a free throw! All the flaws of the NBA in one game!

Go on, lets hear your crazy reasoning behind a player missing a free throw on purpose so that their team has a chance to winning the game is bad for basketball.

albertajaysfan
12-09-2012, 06:01 AM
Why is nobody mentioning him calling it "the special olympics of free throw shooting"? How is that acceptable in our age of political correctness? That's so ****ing offensive.

I feel like a special olympian would be a better free throw shooter anyway.

da ThRONe
12-09-2012, 08:32 AM
Or how about you take away touch fouls and "superstar calls"

I hate the flopping rule. Why not just tell the refs to call what they see and like you're saying stop calling all the ticky tack fouls. How can the league justify calling a foul for one player and not another is completely unacceptable in my book.

kobe4thewinbang
12-09-2012, 10:00 AM
Go on, lets hear your crazy reasoning behind a player missing a free throw on purpose so that their team has a chance to winning the game is bad for basketball.It's crazy for players to abuse the rules.

GrkGawdofWalkz
12-09-2012, 10:31 AM
David Stern just wants to end anything to do with Gregg Popovich. It really is pathetic to the point Stern will go based on ratings. The Spurs have done everything right for the game of basketball. They're even more entertaining now and newb NBA fans still call them boring because they have no common sense.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-09-2012, 12:21 PM
Surprised a Laker fan would defend Stern with this

What does me being a Laker fan have to do with anything? I don't like wasting my time being bored. I didnt like it when they did it to Shaq when he was on another team either. I would change the channel and probably not end up going back to the game. That is what concerns Stern. Bad T.V means less ratings. Less ratings means less money.

Maybe the fact that the Lakers have a player who falls into this catagory now causes you and others to want to leave this rule into place. I bet if the Lakers still had Bynum shooting above 70% most if you would think logically and want to do away with it.

You guys act like Stern is trying to help the Lakers. When in fact he has never tried to change the rule while Shaq or Dwight were on the team. He tried to change it after Shaq left and before Dwight got here. If he was trying to help the Lakers, he wouldnt have vetoed the CP3 trade. And he would have asked for this rule to be changed 13 years ago.

JasonJohnHorn
12-09-2012, 12:45 PM
As opposed to handicapping the game for poor defensive teams?

The Spurs are one of the best defensive teams the league has ever seen and they used the hack-a-shaq. Its not about deficiencies in defence, its about exploiting the oppositions weakness.

The teams are using the tools available to them. There is no rule against that. Howard need to learn how to shoot free throws so that he's not a liability on the floor.

ATX
12-09-2012, 12:58 PM
Instead of changing the rule, maybe Howard could learn to shoot FT's with at least a 60% clip. I mean 47.7% FT shooting...Terrible. I'll admit, it's an annoying tactic, but if you can't shoot FT's well enough to get hacked, then practice and get better! It's not like it's a skill that can't be learned, crafted, and improved. Otherwise your a liability to your team in the most important moments of the game. I don't fault opposing coaches for using all tools at their disposal to get a win.

Vinny642
12-09-2012, 01:38 PM
What does me being a Laker fan have to do with anything? I don't like wasting my time being bored. I didnt like it when they did it to Shaq when he was on another team either. I would change the channel and probably not end up going back to the game. That is what concerns Stern. Bad T.V means less ratings. Less ratings means less money.

Maybe the fact that the Lakers have a player who falls into this catagory now causes you and others to want to leave this rule into place. I bet if the Lakers still had Bynum shooting above 70% most if you would think logically and want to do away with it.

You guys act like Stern is trying to help the Lakers. When in fact he has never tried to change the rule while Shaq or Dwight were on the team. He tried to change it after Shaq left and before Dwight got here. If he was trying to help the Lakers, he wouldnt have vetoed the CP3 trade. And he would have asked for this rule to be changed 13 years ago.

The Hack a whoever only really happens to the Lakers now, so why make the big push to get rid of it now?

It is good how it is now, if the person can;t shoot, they better learn

Chronz
12-09-2012, 02:02 PM
So watching that is fun for you?

I enjoy strategy.

IndyRealist
12-09-2012, 03:40 PM
Free throws are a part of the game, if the took out the Hack-a-Shaq rule completely, good players would learn to shoot free throws, and bad players wouldn't be playing in the last 2 minutes anyway. Free throws are a fundamental part of the game. They might as well take out the requirement to dribble the ball.

IndyRealist
12-09-2012, 03:45 PM
The Spurs are one of the best defensive teams the league has ever seen and they used the hack-a-shaq. Its not about deficiencies in defence, its about exploiting the oppositions weakness.

The teams are using the tools available to them. There is no rule against that. Howard need to learn how to shoot free throws so that he's not a liability on the floor.

This.

Although the Spurs got fined for resting their players when there's no specific rule against it, so....