PDA

View Full Version : Kobe Bryant reaches 30 000 career points.



KB-Pau-DH2012
12-05-2012, 09:59 PM
In his 1,180th career regular season game, with a career scoring average of 25.4 PPG, with 10,460 field goals made & 7,542 free throws made, Kobe Bryant has become the 5th member of the elusive 30K (regular season) pts club behind the legendary Captain, Mailman, His Airness and the Big Dipper. The Black Mamba is now a part of NBA Scoring Royalty.



1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1,560 15,837 6,712 24.6 38,387
2. Karl Malone 1,476 13,528 9,787 25.0 36,928
3. Michael Jordan 1,072 12,192 7,327 30.1 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain 1,045 12,681 6,057 30.1 31,419

Ty Fast
12-05-2012, 09:59 PM
Congrats to Kobe on reaching the milestone. He joins Jabbar, Malone, MJ, and Wilt as the only players to reach 30 000 points.

Avenged
12-05-2012, 10:00 PM
Damn.. just did it 1 second ago. LMAO

Lakers + Giants
12-05-2012, 10:05 PM
You know what's really surprising? The fact that Lebron is only 27 and he's basically at 20K. In 4 1/2 years he'll be up there too at age 32.

Durant is already at 10K as well. Damn, some records wont last as long with players like this.

Anyways, congrats kobe. All those for 1 franchise, impressive. He'll end up 3rd when he retires.

Johann
12-05-2012, 10:05 PM
Good job Kobe.

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-05-2012, 10:06 PM
Congrats Kobe! Best player of the 2000's bar none!!

Lim
12-05-2012, 10:07 PM
His longevity is extremely impressive. prob will end up 3rd all time but I wouldn't be shocked if he ended up #1 either. still doesn't change the fact that he is a ****ing declining CANCER to his team.

GiantsSwaGG
12-05-2012, 10:08 PM
So

Johann
12-05-2012, 10:08 PM
Congrats Kobe! Best player of the 2000's bar none!!

Rafael Araujo says hi

But seriously, Duncan/Garnett/Lebron

I wouldn't call it bar none

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-05-2012, 10:08 PM
So

Then don't watch.

THE MTL
12-05-2012, 10:08 PM
Congratulations to one of the best ever

DumDum
12-05-2012, 10:09 PM
How did this guy stay healthy ? Snake oil , child tears

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-05-2012, 10:10 PM
How did this guy stay healthy ? Snake oil , child tears

I heard eating dumdums gives you good longevity. :p

MetroMan
12-05-2012, 10:11 PM
You know what's really surprising? The fact that Lebron is only 27 and he's basically at 20K. In 4 1/2 years he'll be up there too at age 32.

Durant is already at 10K as well. Damn, some records wont last as long with players like this.

Anyways, congrats kobe. All those for 1 franchise, impressive. He'll end up 3rd when he retires.

^

All this

UPRock
12-05-2012, 10:13 PM
I hate him but congratulations to him, he's one of the best, no doubts.

LAKERMANIA
12-05-2012, 10:13 PM
Congrats to Kobe.. Come on Lebron and Durant, you guys are next! :clap:

Lim
12-05-2012, 10:14 PM
lebron is at 20k points at age 27? holy christ.

DumDum
12-05-2012, 10:14 PM
I heard eating dumdums gives you good longevity. :p

Hey somebody needs to be the heel and He's the best at ripping people's hearts out I give him that

nickdymez
12-05-2012, 10:17 PM
It only took the 3rd post for someone to mention Lebron. Lebron fans are silly with their worship of him.

Anyway, Congrats to Kobe...

bucketss
12-05-2012, 10:19 PM
even the biggest kobe haters gotta give it up to kobe... pure greatness.

bucketss
12-05-2012, 10:21 PM
even the hornets had to take time to congratulate him i don't think i have ever seen the opposing team do that.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
12-05-2012, 10:21 PM
It only took the 3rd post for someone to mention Lebron. Lebron fans are silly with their worship of him.

Anyway, Congrats to Kobe...

The funniest part about your first sentence was that it was a Lakers fan who mentioned him...

Congrats Kobe.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-05-2012, 10:21 PM
Congrats to Kobe.. Come on Lebron and Durant, you guys are next! :clap:

What will be interesting to see is if Durant can get 30K+ with only 1 franchise.


Of the 5 guys, only Kobe and Karl Malone have scored 30K+ with the same franchise. (before Malone ended his career as a Laker for those final couple of hundred points or so).

LAKERMANIA
12-05-2012, 10:21 PM
It's funny how the 30K milestone came against the franchise that initially drafted him in the first place

Bruno
12-05-2012, 10:27 PM
kobe will retire 3rd. he may be passed by James or Durant, depending on longevity.

more importantly, Kobe could possibly end up at #1 on the more important scoring list by the end of the 2013 playoffs:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_career_p.html

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-05-2012, 10:29 PM
kobe will retire 3rd. he may be passed by James or Durant, depending on longevity.

more importantly, Kobe could possibly end up at #1 on the more important scoring list by the end of the 2013 playoffs:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_career_p.html

He'll retire in the summer of 2014 as the 3rd leading scorer in regular season history, 1st leading scorer in playoff history, and 1st leading scorer in all-star game history.

Lim
12-05-2012, 10:32 PM
If I recall, kobe claimed he will retire once his contract is up... however I dont believe him, he strikes me as someone who will not retire until he is #1.

JJ_JKidd
12-05-2012, 10:35 PM
Congratulations to Kobe one of the game's purest scorers and one of the best all-time! :clap: :clap: :clap:

LAKobeBryant
12-05-2012, 10:36 PM
lol more kobe threads?

FraziersKnicks
12-05-2012, 10:39 PM
It only took the 3rd post for someone to mention Lebron. Lebron fans are silly with their worship of him.

Anyway, Congrats to Kobe...

And it was a Lakers fan that mentioned him, along with Durant. He must be a silly Durant fan as well.... :rolleyes:

SACNYY
12-05-2012, 10:39 PM
Congrats

bucketss
12-05-2012, 10:39 PM
well this thread got ruined.

JEDean89
12-05-2012, 10:47 PM
grats kobe, even though i hate you, you know how to drop buckets

PrettyBoyJ
12-05-2012, 10:48 PM
Congrats Kobe one of the best to play the game

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-05-2012, 10:55 PM
His longevity is extremely impressive. prob will end up 3rd all time but I wouldn't be shocked if he ended up #1 either. still doesn't change the fact that he is a ****ing declining CANCER to his team.

:facepalm:

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-05-2012, 10:56 PM
Rafael Araujo says hi

But seriously, Duncan/Garnett/Lebron

I wouldn't call it bar none

Lol lebron 2003-2012
It's between Kobe and Duncan but Kobe's longetivity surpasses duncan

MetroMan
12-05-2012, 10:57 PM
Lol lebron 2003-2012
It's between Kobe and Duncan but Kobe's longetivity surpasses duncan

When Kobe gets his third FMVP he passes duncan

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-05-2012, 10:57 PM
llullz, these KOBE FIENS are so delusional. Don't you know that the guy began his career as the backup singer to Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel?

nickdymez
12-05-2012, 11:04 PM
well this thread got ruined.

Because Lebronies ruin everything

Matter.
12-05-2012, 11:12 PM
Congrats to my favourite NBA player of all time, Kobe Bryant!

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-05-2012, 11:16 PM
If I recall, kobe claimed he will retire once his contract is up... however I dont believe him, he strikes me as someone who will not retire until he is #1.

He changed his mind he said he could play maybe until he's 40

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-05-2012, 11:17 PM
When Kobe gets his third FMVP he passes duncan

IMO he already passed him

shep33
12-05-2012, 11:19 PM
:clap: Nice job Kobe

Gators123
12-05-2012, 11:19 PM
Awesome. Congrats Kobe.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-05-2012, 11:20 PM
In honor of zee gratest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY8rUhlC0xY

Gram
12-05-2012, 11:20 PM
Grats Kobe!

Switch
12-05-2012, 11:20 PM
Congrats to one of the best players of all time

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-05-2012, 11:20 PM
Grats Kobe!

#KobeGramSystem ???? :D

justinnum1
12-05-2012, 11:22 PM
congrats, well earned

bucketss
12-05-2012, 11:27 PM
Because Lebronies ruin everything

you have another interview in 30 minutes? aha.

Greedy22
12-05-2012, 11:31 PM
In honor of zee gratest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY8rUhlC0xY

:laugh:

Whatever happened to TheHoopsProphet?

Chavacano
12-05-2012, 11:39 PM
For those of you who missed Kobe's 30,000th and 30,001st pts, here it is:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1837347/kobe30kpts.gif

savvy1803
12-05-2012, 11:45 PM
Congrats to the Mamba ...awesome milestone .:clap:

nickdymez
12-05-2012, 11:45 PM
In honor of zee gratest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY8rUhlC0xY

:facepalm:

LakersMaster24
12-05-2012, 11:52 PM
Colby B.B Gun Captain Crunchtime Bryant.

still1ballin
12-05-2012, 11:54 PM
:worthy:





now do the LT

:dance:

torocan
12-05-2012, 11:56 PM
A serious accomplishment, especially with his longevity.

Will be quite a day when he hangs up those sneakers.

mzgrizz
12-05-2012, 11:58 PM
Congrats , Kobe!

oG $wank.
12-06-2012, 12:00 AM
congrats to the future hall of famer

yanksrock
12-06-2012, 12:04 AM
Congrats Kobe!!

ElChinoLatino
12-06-2012, 12:51 AM
Even though he has taken more shots than any other player in the NBA, congrats Kobe.

Bruno
12-06-2012, 01:05 AM
Even though he has taken more shots than any other player in the NBA, congrats Kobe.

wrong.

kobe has still taken less shots than every other player ahead of him on the scoring list, as well as several others. googles a wonderful thing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fga_career.html

t327
12-06-2012, 01:23 AM
I am a casual basketball fan...not a fan of any team. Being in LA, and seeing Kobe all the time...very sweet to see him accomplish such an amazing feet.

Aust
12-06-2012, 01:30 AM
Some people can't give a simple congrats without taking a shot at him. You stay classy haters

RaiderLakersA's
12-06-2012, 01:31 AM
When he first joined the Lakers, a scrawny, big-headed kid dwarfed by the dominating (or maybe it was domineering) Shaq, who amongst us ever thought that Kobe would ascend to this great milestone?

Not I. And certainly not any of you.

And when he threw up those airballs, thus sealing the Lakers playoff defeat, who amongst us ever thought that Kobe would ascend to this great milestone?

Not I. And certainly not any of you.

And when he went through that debacle in CO. Who amongst us ever thought Kobe would ascend to this great milestone?

Not I. And certainly not any of you.

Congratulations to the Black Mamba. His detractors can say whatever they want to about his game, but there is no denying his indomnitable will. Kobe willed himself to greatness and now he's walking stride for stride with some of the greatest players to EVER play the game. (Wait, let that resonate: To EVER play the game.)

Who amongst us won't feel that the NBA will be greatly diminished by his absence when he walks away from the game? Not I. And certainly not any of you!!!

Lakers + Giants
12-06-2012, 01:31 AM
The funniest part about your first sentence was that it was a Lakers fan who mentioned him...

Congrats Kobe.

Thank you.

I guess since I don't hate lebron that makes me a miami fan. :rolleyes:

Htownballa1622
12-06-2012, 01:59 AM
Congrats to kobe. Truly great player and it's been a privilege to watch him play.

Lakersfan2483
12-06-2012, 02:06 AM
Congrats to one of the greatest players to ever step on a basketball court.

kblo247
12-06-2012, 02:06 AM
He summed it up best - "lot of years, lot of work"

Congrats as he earned it by putting in work in that laker uni, rather you love/hate him, fact is he's given the Lakers franchise his blood, sweat, tears, and rings which has also helped the nba and game of basketball as a whole

Swift Game
12-06-2012, 02:16 AM
Congrats to Kobe and he deserves the recognition. Crazy that he can still play at a high level at this stage of his career and hope we can see him for another 4-5 years before he hangs them up.

Its hard not be be a fan of Kobe even though the Lakers are hated and him to.

amos1er
12-06-2012, 05:03 AM
Nice little side note to help ease the terrible performance of the Lakers as of recent.

Hawkeye15
12-06-2012, 05:05 AM
Can't stand him. But....I feel very lucky to have watched his career as a basketball fan. In 30 years, when kids talk about the greats, and ask about Kobe, I can at least say I witnessed it...

Hawkeye15
12-06-2012, 05:07 AM
wrong.

kobe has still taken less shots than every other player ahead of him on the scoring list, as well as several others. googles a wonderful thing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fga_career.html

To pass them he needs to crap on your statement.

sammyvine
12-06-2012, 05:34 AM
absolute legend of the game

3ballbomber
12-06-2012, 05:36 AM
He is THE LAST out of that era of NBA where basketball was a man's sport not entertainment and this soft version of the sport that will achieve these fetes w/ past legends.

I've never really been a Kobe fan but all the softness we see today has made me really appreciate him.

Congrats to Kobe Bryant!

sammyvine
12-06-2012, 05:41 AM
He is THE LAST out of that era of NBA where basketball was a man's sport not entertainment and this soft version of the sport that will achieve these fetes w/ past legends.

I've never really been a Kobe fan but all the softness we see today has made me really appreciate him.

Congrats to Kobe Bryant!

He is very polarising. Most hate him or love him.

TheNumber37
12-06-2012, 06:25 AM
He's gonna pass MJ, don't know about Malone.
IF Kobe keeps pace he'll be in the 3rd spot in 40 more games.

cg_la00
12-06-2012, 07:45 AM
In honor of zee gratest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY8rUhlC0xY

lmfao!! that has to be THE greatest colby vid ive ever seen :laugh: i died at kobe having a duck as a head, vlad rad, and potato head

thenaj17
12-06-2012, 07:48 AM
He's gonna pass MJ, don't know about Malone.
IF Kobe keeps pace he'll be in the 3rd spot in 40 more games.

It will take 56 games of 25ppg to go into 4th, not sure how you got 40 games...

ldawg
12-06-2012, 08:17 AM
congrats Kobe

Lakers + Giants
12-06-2012, 09:55 AM
To pass them he needs to crap on your statement.

Still, no shame in having the lowest fg% percentage when 3/4 are bigs and the other guy is the greatest to ever play.

Heediot
12-06-2012, 09:56 AM
He'll also retire leading the league in career FGA.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-06-2012, 10:17 AM
youngest to get to 30k. props.

JiffyMix88
12-06-2012, 10:33 AM
He'll also retire leading the league in career FGA.

roughly Kareem has 5000 more

and Kobe has 23000 and counting

3RDASYSTEM
12-06-2012, 10:56 AM
Nice accomplishment for any player of any era

Had he not started out as a backupguard he would have at least 3k more total points, but 30k is 30k

it should have been another player vying for this elusive 30k club and he hasnt played since basically 2009 season and was sitting on basically 25k,BUBBACHUCK

beliges
12-06-2012, 11:41 AM
Top 6 of all time., legendary.

BklynKnicks3
12-06-2012, 11:42 AM
2nd best player ever hands down

bucketss
12-06-2012, 11:44 AM
^:facepalm:

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 11:54 AM
Even though he has taken more shots than any other player in the NBA, congrats Kobe.

Wrong BRO!

JasonJohnHorn
12-06-2012, 12:25 PM
Just means he shoots a lot.


And D.r J should be included in that club... does the ABA count for nothing? lol

Money_23
12-06-2012, 12:34 PM
no idea why people are giving negative comments here. 30k is very exclusive.

thenaj17
12-06-2012, 12:57 PM
Just means he shoots a lot.


And D.r J should be included in that club... does the ABA count for nothing? lol

Shock this came from you. Like some said before, all the ones above Kobe on the list had more shots. 3 of the 4 above him are forwards and MJ was just MJ.

Why should the ABA count? This is an NBA record. Does college ball count? Do little leagues count?

beliges
12-06-2012, 01:06 PM
2nd best player ever hands down

2nd best perimeter player ever? You wont find too many that'll argue against that one.

whitemamba33
12-06-2012, 01:08 PM
Everytime Kobe comes out and says something that is viewed to be "insensitive", people complain that he doesn't care what people think of him.

Can you blame him?

People are going to find a way to hate him no matter what he does. It's a testament to his greatness.

ManRam
12-06-2012, 01:11 PM
Kobe is the GOAT volume scorer.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 01:12 PM
I can't stand the guy most of the time. I think he gets far too much credit historically. But how can you not respect his work ethic or his longevity? This is a monumental achievement and one that deserves recognition. It's quite possible he'll hold the points record before he retires, especially considering how well he's playing this season.

I kinda just wish he would retire, though, so I can hate him less and remember him fondly. He'll be one of those players who I hated the Rockets playing against, but that I was always terrified of and in awe of his abilities.

ManningToTyree
12-06-2012, 01:28 PM
Congrats to Kobe :clap:

farren.louis
12-06-2012, 01:31 PM
Congrats to Kobe, but He's not one of the top 5 players to play .. Honestly Wade #'s are way better than Kobes'

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-06-2012, 01:33 PM
Congrats to Kobe, but He's not one of the top 5 players to play .. Honestly Wade #'s are way better than Kobes'

this season?

LMFAO:laugh:

Gram
12-06-2012, 02:33 PM
this season?

LMFAO:laugh:

I never understood why people say Wade is better than Kobe. I never once thought he was. :shrug: My opinion though.

beliges
12-06-2012, 02:51 PM
Congrats to Kobe, but He's not one of the top 5 players to play .. Honestly Wade #'s are way better than Kobes'

this season?

LMFAO:laugh:

You can't name 5 guys that accomplished more and acheieved more success than Kobe. Your opinion is just that, your opinion. But the fact remains that he is one of the 5 most accomplished, successful and dominating players to have ever played in terms of winning.

Furthermore, in terms of minutes played, only MJ got to 30,000 pts quicker than Kobe.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 03:12 PM
You can't name 5 guys that accomplished more and acheieved more success than Kobe. Your opinion is just that, your opinion. But the fact remains that he is one of the 5 most accomplished, successful and dominating players to have ever played in terms of winning.

Furthermore, in terms of minutes played, only MJ got to 30,000 pts quicker than Kobe.

In terms of individual and team accomplishments, I'll buy that Kobe is a debatable top five guy. In terms of actual play and statistical dominance, he's nowhere near top five. As I've said about a dozen times, he was probably never the best player in the league at any given time and his one MVP was more of a career achievement award than a legit MVP. He has been a top 5-10 guy for more than a decade and his longevity and excellence over time certainly deserve credit, as well as his titles. But in terms of greatest all-time players, Kobe will never touch the top five, IMO.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 03:23 PM
Just means he shoots a lot.


And D.r J should be included in that club... does the ABA count for nothing? lol

This is the NBA.

I had to put "regular season" scoring in for simple-minded "jumping the gun" type of posters like you who probably would have asked: "Durrr, does this include pre-season and the playoffs too?"

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 03:31 PM
Just means he shoots a lot.


And D.r J should be included in that club... does the ABA count for nothing? lol

I think Dr. J deserves to be included in the club, because the ABA DID merge with the NBA and it's not as if he was playing against scrubs. But his inclusion should include some sort of asterisk noting that more than a third of his points were with the ABA. If he had played his entire career with the NBA, I don't think his career totals would have been that high, though, because his production took a huge hit after the merger.

ManRam
12-06-2012, 03:33 PM
I never understood why people say Wade is better than Kobe. I never once thought he was. :shrug: My opinion though.

I think Wade had a decent amount of seasons where he was better than Kobe in Kobe's prime, but in terms of career, it's not close...especially if Wade's prime is over like some think.

beliges
12-06-2012, 03:48 PM
In terms of individual and team accomplishments, I'll buy that Kobe is a debatable top five guy. In terms of actual play and statistical dominance, he's nowhere near top five. As I've said about a dozen times, he was probably never the best player in the league at any given time and his one MVP was more of a career achievement award than a legit MVP. He has been a top 5-10 guy for more than a decade and his longevity and excellence over time certainly deserve credit, as well as his titles. But in terms of greatest all-time players, Kobe will never touch the top five, IMO.

I couldnt disagree with you more. In his prime, he was arguably the greatest scorer to ever live. He was dropping 50 points at will against any team. Also during that time, he was one of the 5 best perimeter defenders in the league. Clearly his rebounding and assist numbers arent as great as some of the great bigs or PGs of the game. I would argue that his lack of multiple MVSs was a result of bias and blatant disregard for his achievements. Not one perimeter player outside of MJ had his combination of dominating offense and defense. The fact that you say he will never touch the top 5 is laughable at best. The individuals that are CLEARLY ahead of Kobe at this point in his career are Kareem and MJ. There is not another player that was clearly better than Kobe. You can argue Russell and Wilt (given the fact they are past legends). It makes no sense to state he has a top 5 resume but wont qualify as a top 5 player. THe resume makes the player. His numbers from 2000-current (prime years) are as good as anyone else I would argue.

And for you to say that he was not considered the best player in the league at any point in time during this decade is simply illogical. The general consensus among NBA GMs and Coaches and Players is that Kobe was the greatest player of 00-10 decade. I believe he achieved that recognition by a significant margin as well.

And using your own argument, I can say that not a single player was ever considered the absolute best in the league at any point other than MJ. It was always Wilt and Russel. Kareem and Wilt. Magic and Bird. And etc...

Kobe, im certain has done enough and achieved enough to go down as a top 5 player when its all said and done, and probably the 2nd greatest perimeter player to ever play.

Money_23
12-06-2012, 03:55 PM
I couldnt disagree with you more. In his prime, he was arguably the greatest scorer to ever live. He was dropping 50 points at will against any team. Also during that time, he was one of the 5 best perimeter defenders in the league. Clearly his rebounding and assist numbers arent as great as some of the great bigs or PGs of the game. I would argue that his lack of multiple MVSs was a result of bias and blatant disregard for his achievements. Not one perimeter player outside of MJ had his combination of dominating offense and defense. The fact that you say he will never touch the top 5 is laughable at best. The individuals that are CLEARLY ahead of Kobe at this point in his career are Kareem and MJ. There is not another player that was clearly better than Kobe. You can argue Russell and Wilt (given the fact they are past legends). It makes no sense to state he has a top 5 resume but wont qualify as a top 5 player. THe resume makes the player. His numbers from 2000-current (prime years) are as good as anyone else I would argue.

And for you to say that he was not considered the best player in the league at any point in time during this decade is simply illogical. The general consensus among NBA GMs and Coaches and Players is that Kobe was the greatest player of 00-10 decade. I believe he achieved that recognition by a significant margin as well.

And using your own argument, I can say that not a single player was ever considered the absolute best in the league at any point other than MJ. It was always Wilt and Russel. Kareem and Wilt. Magic and Bird. And etc...

Kobe, im certain has done enough and achieved enough to go down as a top 5 player when its all said and done, and probably the 2nd greatest perimeter player to ever play.

kobe might have a case in the regular season, but certainly not in the playoffs. MJ is the greatest playoff performer/scorer and finals performer/scorer to ever live.

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 03:56 PM
Kobe wasn't droppin 50 on ANY teams. he almost always got 50+ against the weaker teams. just padding his stats to make himself look cooler than he really was. MJ did alot more 50+ games, & against the better teams way more often. Kobe was just ball hogging, & taking advantage of crappy teams.

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 03:58 PM
Kobe wasn't droppin 50 on ANY teams. he almost always got 50+ against the weaker teams. just padding his stats to make himself look cooler than he really was. MJ did alot more 50+ games, & against the better teams way more often. Kobe was just ball hogging, & taking advantage of crappy teams.

Troll

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 03:58 PM
Kobe wasn't droppin 50 on ANY teams. he almost always got 50+ against the weaker teams. just padding his stats to make himself look cooler than he really was. MJ did alot more 50+ games, & against the better teams way more often. Kobe was just ball hogging, & taking advantage of crappy teams.

Oh yes definitely, no doubt, you are so right.


Btw, do you know el hidalgo by any chance?

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 03:59 PM
kobe might have a case in the regular season, but certainly not in the playoffs. MJ is the greatest playoff performer/scorer and finals performer/scorer to ever live.

Look at some off Kobe's Playoff numbers. They are pretty insane

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 04:02 PM
took Kobe 219 more games to get to 30,000 than MJ (960 games for MJ, 1,179 for KB). big deal. even Karl Malone got to 30,000 in less games 1,152 to 1,179. haha Karl Malone did it in less games. Kobe isn't the ultimate scorer some think he is, he's just played 80 billion games cause he started when he was barely 18, & is the most selfish player of all time on offense. PPG is a much better judge of your scoring ability (not playing a billion more games than everyone else) & he's not even top 10 in PPG

Money_23
12-06-2012, 04:03 PM
Look at some off Kobe's Playoff numbers. They are pretty insane

yes they are very good. But look at MJ's playoff numbers. The dude averaged over 33 points for his playoff career, roughly 33-6-6-2 steals.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 04:03 PM
took Kobe 219 more games to get to 30,000 than MJ (960 games for MJ, 1,179 for KB). big deal. even Karl Malone got to 30,000 in less games 1,152 to 1,179. haha Karl Malone did it in less games. Kobe isn't the ultimate scorer some think he is, he's just played 80 billion games cause he started when he was barely 18, & is the most selfish player of all time on offense. PPG is a much better judge of your scoring ability (not playing a billion more games than everyone else)

Can you get a breakdown of how many total minutes it took for all those guys to score 30K ?

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 04:03 PM
I couldnt disagree with you more. In his prime, he was arguably the greatest scorer to ever live. He was dropping 50 points at will against any team.
Both of these are wildly inaccurate. His scoring efficiency doesn't belong in the same breath as MJ or Lebron. And if he was "dropping 50 points at will" he would have averaged 50 points a game. You're either misremembering history or refuse to look at statistics.


Also during that time, he was one of the 5 best perimeter defenders in the league.
Most all-time great perimeter players were, including Shaq, Lebron and Bird. That is not an unusual feat.


I would argue that his lack of multiple MVSs was a result of bias and blatant disregard for his achievements. Not one perimeter player outside of MJ had his combination of dominating offense and defense.
The first sentence is pure nonsense. Look at the numbers and the context and you'll see he was only deserving of an MVP once and that was in 05-06. And I would argue that there are quite a few perimeter players who were great offensively and defensively.


The fact that you say he will never touch the top 5 is laughable at best. The individuals that are CLEARLY ahead of Kobe at this point in his career are Kareem and MJ. There is not another player that was clearly better than Kobe. You can argue Russell and Wilt (given the fact they are past legends). It makes no sense to state he has a top 5 resume but wont qualify as a top 5 player. THe resume makes the player. His numbers from 2000-current (prime years) are as good as anyone else I would argue.
The resume has to include stats. You can't just say "Oh wow! Look at all those All-Star games and Championships!" No. Statistically, the guys ahead of him are ahead of him for a reason. Also, his lack of MVPs is a huge mark on his career, IMO. He didn't even deserve the one he got.


And for you to say that he was not considered the best player in the league at any point in time during this decade is simply illogical. The general consensus among NBA GMs and Coaches and Players is that Kobe was the greatest player of 00-10 decade.
Lol. No it's not. If you asked 100 people close to the league who the best player of the decade was and you'll get far more Tim Duncans than Kobe Bryants. Duncan impacted the game in far more ways than Kobe ever did.


I believe he achieved that recognition by a significant margin as well.
Based on what? Duncan has more titles as an alpha dog, more MVPs and his prime statistically takes a huge dump on Kobe's prime. I have no clue what you're using as a barometer, but it certainly isn't logic or statistics.


And using your own argument, I can say that not a single player was ever considered the absolute best in the league at any point other than MJ. It was always Wilt and Russel. Kareem and Wilt. Magic and Bird. And etc..
But it was at least debatable between two guys. And most of those years, you'd be wrong, because one guy was clearly better than the other. Kobe's stats were never statistically among the two best in the league at any given time, except for arguably in 05-06. Earlier in his career, Shaq and Duncan dominated, and later in his career, it was Lebron, Paul, Wade and Dwight. Kobe was never the best player in the NBA at any given time, and I dare you to provide me statistical evidence otherwise.


Kobe, im certain has done enough and achieved enough to go down as a top 5 player when its all said and done, and probably the 2nd greatest perimeter player to ever play.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not "certain" in any way. Look at his scoring efficiency and you'll see that he just doesn't stack up to other, better players. Right now, he's probably a top 10 guy. But by the time Lebron retires, Kobe will probably get knocked out of the top 10 and we'll see just how much better Lebron was than Kobe in their primes.

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 04:05 PM
Look at some off Kobe's Playoff numbers. They are pretty insanethey're very good, but compaired to MJ's they're laughable

Money_23
12-06-2012, 04:06 PM
took Kobe 219 more games to get to 30,000 than MJ (960 games for MJ, 1,179 for KB). big deal. even Karl Malone got to 30,000 in less games 1,152 to 1,179. haha Karl Malone did it in less games. Kobe isn't the ultimate scorer some think he is, he's just played 80 billion games cause he started when he was barely 18, & is the most selfish player of all time on offense. PPG is a much better judge of your scoring ability (not playing a billion more games than everyone else) & he's not even top 10 in PPG

25 ppg for 17 years is pretty good since he did only play 20 minutes a game for his first 2 seasons.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 04:07 PM
they're very good, but compaired to MJ's they're laughable

Don't think anyone here is really comparing Kobe to Michael. I don't think any current player should be compared to Michael. He was just that great.

A King during the regular season, and a God during the playoffs. No other perimeter player really comes close to his level.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 04:13 PM
Look at some off Kobe's Playoff numbers. They are pretty insane

You know whose playoff numbers totally dwarf Kobe's? Lebron James. And it's not close or debatable in any way.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 04:15 PM
You know whose playoff numbers totally dwarf Kobe's? Lebron James. And it's not close or debatable in any way.

You know who this thread is not about but yet posters like you and others will still bring him in to go off on a tangent? LeBron James.

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 04:17 PM
Both of these are wildly inaccurate. His scoring efficiency doesn't belong in the same breath as MJ or Lebron. And if he was "dropping 50 points at will" he would have averaged 50 points a game. You're either misremembering history or refuse to look at statistics.


Most all-time great perimeter players were, including Shaq, Lebron and Bird. That is not an unusual feat.


The first sentence is pure nonsense. Look at the numbers and the context and you'll see he was only deserving of an MVP once and that was in 05-06. And I would argue that there are quite a few perimeter players who were great offensively and defensively.


The resume has to include stats. You can't just say "Oh wow! Look at all those All-Star games and Championships!" No. Statistically, the guys ahead of him are ahead of him for a reason. Also, his lack of MVPs is a huge mark on his career, IMO. He didn't even deserve the one he got.


Lol. No it's not. If you asked 100 people close to the league who the best player of the decade was and you'll get far more Tim Duncans than Kobe Bryants. Duncan impacted the game in far more ways than Kobe ever did.


Based on what? Duncan has more titles as an alpha dog, more MVPs and his prime statistically takes a huge dump on Kobe's prime. I have no clue what you're using as a barometer, but it certainly isn't logic or statistics.


But it was at least debatable between two guys. And most of those years, you'd be wrong, because one guy was clearly better than the other. Kobe's stats were never statistically among the two best in the league at any given time, except for arguably in 05-06. Earlier in his career, Shaq and Duncan dominated, and later in his career, it was Lebron, Paul, Wade and Dwight. Kobe was never the best player in the NBA at any given time, and I dare you to provide me statistical evidence otherwise.


You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not "certain" in any way. Look at his scoring efficiency and you'll see that he just doesn't stack up to other, better players. Right now, he's probably a top 10 guy. But by the time Lebron retires, Kobe will probably get knocked out of the top 10 and we'll see just how much better Lebron was than Kobe in their primes.Even though you were mean to me about my grammer. I agree with just about everything you said here. I'd only argue him deserving mvp in 06, because i think he played like a moron that year, & only tried to pad his stats. It was the most selfish season i've ever seen by far, & i'm glad the NBA didn't reward him for that garbage. It's one thing if you're shooting over 50% or close to it getting so many points, but at barely 45% he was just flat out forcing that crap.(MJ's 35 ppg he shot 53%, so it made sense & was natural, KB 45% just forced it ball hogging) you see what i'm saying?

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 04:21 PM
You know whose playoff numbers totally dwarf Kobe's? Lebron James. And it's not close or debatable in any way.

Why dont you go ahead and tell us all about Lebrons penis while your at it..

Money_23
12-06-2012, 04:22 PM
Even though you were mean to me about my grammer. I agree with just about everything you said here. I'd only argue him deserving mvp in 06, because i think he played like a moron that year, & only tried to pad his stats. It was the most selfish season i've ever seen by far, & i'm glad the NBA didn't reward him for that garbage. It's one thing if you're shooting over 50% or close to it getting so many points, but at barely 45% he was just flat out forcing that crap.(MJ's 35 ppg he shot 53%, so it made sense & was natural, KB 45% just forced it ball hogging) you see what i'm saying?

if he didn't play the way he was playing, the Lakers would have missed the playoffs. Probably end up with the worst or 2nd worst record in the league.

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 04:24 PM
25 ppg for 17 years is pretty good since he did only play 20 minutes a game for his first 2 seasons.Yea but it's his own fault if he wasn't ready for bigger minutes. That's all on him, & part of his legacy. Don't come to the NBA early if you're not fully ready, then complain you only got so many minutes. LeBron came in ready at 18 years old & avg about 21 ppg his first year. If he was impressing his coach enough back then he'd have gotten 36-40 min per game. He didn't get the minutes becuase when he got in the game he got out of control & shot all the time & embarrassed himself alot hogging the ball, shooting odd hero shot fade away bricks for no reason, etc.

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 04:25 PM
Yea but it's his own fault if he wasn't ready for bigger minutes. That's all on him, & part of his legacy. Don't come to the NBA early if you're not fully ready, then complain you only got so many minutes. LeBron came in ready at 18 years old & avg about 21 ppg his first year. If he was impressing his coach enough back then he'd have gotten 36-40 min per game. He didn;'t get the minutes becuase when he got in the game he got out of control & shot all the time & embarrassed himself alot hogging the ball, shooting odd hero shot fade away bricks for no reason, etc.

This troll must me stopped!!!!:speechless::facepalm:

Money_23
12-06-2012, 04:27 PM
Yea but it's his own fault if he wasn't ready for bigger minutes. That's all on him, & part of his legacy. Don't come to the NBA early if you're not fully ready, then complain you only got so many minutes. LeBron came in ready at 18 years old & avg about 21 ppg his first year. If he was impressing his coach enough back then he'd have gotten 36-40 min per game. He didn't get the minutes becuase when he got in the game he got out of control & shot all the time & embarrassed himself alot hogging the ball, shooting odd hero shot fade away bricks for no reason, etc.

it was no one's fault except the circumstance. The Lakers already had all-star like guards so naturally no one would let an 18 year old start anyway, that doesn't mean he wasn't good enough to start.
Lebron averaged 21ppg his first year because he was the best player on his team in his first year as well. There's the difference man. Can't compare apples to oranges.
Judging from your last sentence I think you just really hate Kobe. So naturally all your posts are biased and you can manage to squeeze out a fault from everything he does.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 04:27 PM
You know who this thread is not about but yet posters like you and others will still bring him in to go off on a tangent? LeBron James.

Lol. Fair point. But given that it seems like every major thread on PSD right now has turned into a Lebron v. Kobe debate, this is inevitable. And my point is sort of valid, because anyone who wants to argue Kobe as a top five all-time player (like the debate I'm having in this thread) should seriously look at the numbers of his peers in the same era.

Kobe is 21st in career PER and 50th in career WS/48. Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, Durant, Dirk, Wade, McGrady (shockingly) and Howard all posted higher PERs. For some of those guys (mainly Durant and T-Mac), you could argue sample size. But for most of them, it's pretty clear that they were better postseason performers than Kobe is/was.

You could argue context and say "Kobe never had such postseason failures as Lebron did against Boston in 2010 or against Dallas in 2011." But I would argue that Kobe has never been as dominant as Lebron was against the Pistons that one year or during last year's postseason run. Lebron's highlights are so stunning that his failures stand out that much more. But nobody seems to remember Kobe's postseason failures in 2004, 2006, 2007 or 2011 because he has five shiny rings.

It doesn't seem fair, does it?

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 04:28 PM
if he didn't play the way he was playing, the Lakers would have missed the playoffs. Probably end up with the worst or 2nd worst record in the league.i'm not so sure about that. i think they'd have done a tad better if he used better shot selection, & got Odom to avg about 19-20 ppg. that year was just purely showing off (with a weak fg% mind you)

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 04:30 PM
Lol. Fair point. But given that it seems like every major thread on PSD right now has turned into a Lebron v. Kobe debate, this is inevitable. And my point is sort of valid, because anyone who wants to argue Kobe as a top five all-time player (like the debate I'm having in this thread) should seriously look at the numbers of his peers in the same era.

Kobe is 21st in career PER and 50th in career WS/48. Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, Durant, Dirk, Wade, McGrady (shockingly) and Howard all posted higher PERs. For some of those guys (mainly Durant and T-Mac), you could argue sample size. But for most of them, it's pretty clear that they were better postseason performers than Kobe is/was.

You could argue context and say "Kobe never had such postseason failures as Lebron did against Boston in 2010 or against Dallas in 2011." But I would argue that Kobe has never been as dominant as Lebron was against the Pistons that one year or during last year's postseason run. Lebron's highlights are so stunning that his failures stand out that much more. But nobody seems to remember Kobe's postseason failures in 2004, 2006, 2007 or 2011 because he has five shiny rings.

It doesn't seem fair, does it?

So the only thing that matters is numbers? Thats why basketball fans are terrible now a days.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 04:31 PM
Lol. Fair point. But given that it seems like every major thread on PSD right now has turned into a Lebron v. Kobe debate, this is inevitable. And my point is sort of valid, because anyone who wants to argue Kobe as a top five all-time player (like the debate I'm having in this thread) should seriously look at the numbers of his peers in the same era.

Kobe is 21st in career PER and 50th in career WS/48. Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, Durant, Dirk, Wade, McGrady (shockingly) and Howard all posted higher PERs. For some of those guys (mainly Durant and T-Mac), you could argue sample size. But for most of them, it's pretty clear that they were better postseason performers than Kobe is/was.

You could argue context and say "Kobe never had such postseason failures as Lebron did against Boston in 2010 or against Dallas in 2011." But I would argue that Kobe has never been as dominant as Lebron was against the Pistons that one year or during last year's postseason run. Lebron's highlights are so stunning that his failures stand out that much more. But nobody seems to remember Kobe's postseason failures in 2004, 2006, 2007 or 2011 because he has five shiny rings.

It doesn't seem fair, does it?

I do.


He was a selfish prick in 04, 06 he was following the game plan and it worked for 4 games, and in that 7th game, he tried to follow the script. Trust me, that Game 7 wasn't as bad as it was made out to be by fatass Charles Barkley. If he didn't make such a big commotion about Kobe's 3 shot attempts in the 2nd half, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

2007 and 2011 aren't really astronomical failures, but I will say that Game 4 of the 2008 Finals was a failure by losing a 24 pt lead. That was the game that proved to be that as great and iconic Kobe Bryant will be, at the end of the day, he will never surpass Michael as Michael wouldn't have allowed that to ever happen, much less with a championship hanging in the balance.

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 04:33 PM
This troll must me stopped!!!!:speechless::facepalm:

It's el hidalgo's dupe. Whatcha gonna do? Mods love him for some reason.

Money_23
12-06-2012, 04:33 PM
i'm not so sure about that. i think they'd have done a tad better if he used better shot selection, & got Odom to avg about 19-20 ppg. that year was just purely showing off (with a weak fg% mind you)

so you think the 2006 Lakers squad would have made the playoffs without Kobe's scoring?

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 04:34 PM
I do.


He was a selfish prick in 04, 06 he was following the game plan and it worked for 4 games, and in that 7th game, he tried to follow the script. Trust me, that Game 7 wasn't as bad as it was made out to be by fatass Charles Barkley. If he didn't make such a big commotion about Kobe's 3 shot attempts in the 2nd half, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

2007 and 2011 aren't really astronomical failures, but I will say that Game 4 of the 2008 Finals was a failure by losing a 24 pt lead. That was the game that proved to be that as great and iconic Kobe Bryant will be, at the end of the day, he will never surpass Michael as Michael wouldn't have allowed that to ever happen, much less with a championship hanging in the balance.

I feel the exact same way. That game and that series showed me that Kobe will never be goat. No way mike would have blown that. And if mike did, he would have swept the rest of the series averaging like 50 points a game.

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 04:35 PM
It's el hidalgo's dupe. Whatcha gonna do? Mods love him for some reason.

Fa real. Its kinda like he's slappin the mods in the face by making a dupe WITH THE SAME DAMN NAME!!!

Money_23
12-06-2012, 04:35 PM
I feel the exact same way. That game and that series showed me that Kobe will never be goat. No way mike would have blown that. And if mike did, he would have swept the rest of the series averaging like 50 points a game.

I always thought Kobe was a great closer. But he definitely took a huge step back in the 2008 finals after seeing his domination in the 1st 3 series of the playoffs. 32-6-6 on 51%fg through 15 games in the playoffs was something he hasn't done since 2001 and was something he wasn't able to do since.

beliges
12-06-2012, 04:36 PM
Kobe is 3rd on the all time points for NBA playoffs list. He will become #1 by either this post season or next post season.

One of the greatest Playoff performers ever. 5 titles and 7 Finals Appearances.

ewing
12-06-2012, 04:36 PM
Can we talk about Kobe's legacy?

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Fa real. Its kinda like he's slappin the mods in the face by making a dupe WITH THE SAME DAMN NAME!!!

Yup, it'd be like me making a dupe like "KB-Pau-DH" without the 2012 or you making a dupe of "nickdyme" without the 'z' at the end.

bluefire7002
12-06-2012, 04:38 PM
it was no one's fault except the circumstance. The Lakers already had all-star like guards so naturally no one would let an 18 year old start anyway, that doesn't mean he wasn't good enough to start.
Lebron averaged 21ppg his first year because he was the best player on his team in his first year as well. There's the difference man. Can't compare apples to oranges.
Judging from your last sentence I think you just really hate Kobe. So naturally all your posts are biased and you can manage to squeeze out a fault from everything he does.


Hahah him and that other dude who calls Kobe a backup SG All-star because he didn't start his first year, are awesome :D

ewing
12-06-2012, 04:40 PM
Kobe has won 27 championships!!! Oh **** Yankees forum, my bad

KB-Pau-DH2012
12-06-2012, 04:48 PM
Hahah him and that other dude who calls Kobe a backup SG All-star because he didn't start his first year, are awesome :D


Correction, Kobe began his career as the backup singer to Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel. He will always stay the same player he was his first 3 yrs, since that's the golden criteria. Get it right!

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 04:50 PM
Yup, it'd be like me making a dupe like "KB-Pau-DH" without the 2012 or you making a dupe of "nickdyme" without the 'z' at the end.

lmao. Or like me making a dupe "Nickdymes" and you making "KB-Pau-MWP"

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 04:56 PM
i dunno if he's in the top 10, it's close though. i can't put him ahead of Shaq, or Tim Duncan, or LeBron James. he's about at Olajuwon's level overall, but i'd take a prime Olajuwon anyday over a prime Kobe.

top 10 ever in my opinion

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlin
Kareem Abdul-Jabar
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Hakeem Olajuwon

then there's Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc

LAKERMANIA
12-06-2012, 04:59 PM
i dunno if he's in the top 10, it's close though. i can't put him ahead of Shaq, or Tim Duncan, or LeBron James. he's about at Olajuwon's level overall, but i'd take a prime Olajuwon anyday over a prime Kobe.

top 10 ever in my opinion

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlin
Kareem Abdul-Jabar
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Hakeem Olajuwon

then there's Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Kobe Bryant, etc

Too early for Lebron, if both Kobe and Lebron retired tomorrow you can't possibly place him ahead of Hakeem or Kobe

sammyvine
12-06-2012, 05:01 PM
Anyway i don't understand why people keep moaning about how blessed Bryant has been with the rosters he has had.

That's just what happens when you pay for a big team. It happens in football, everywhere.

bluefire7002
12-06-2012, 05:06 PM
Correction, Kobe began his career as the backup singer to Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel. He will always stay the same player he was his first 3 yrs, since that's the golden criteria. Get it right!

:laugh:

I stand corrected.

Money_23
12-06-2012, 05:07 PM
a monumental point in Kobe's career turns into a Kobe vs ___ thread.... nice.

Supreme LA
12-06-2012, 05:31 PM
i dunno if he's in the top 10, it's close though. i can't put him ahead of Shaq, or Tim Duncan, or LeBron James. he's about at Olajuwon's level overall, but i'd take a prime Olajuwon anyday over a prime Kobe.

top 10 ever in my opinion

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlin
Kareem Abdul-Jabar
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Hakeem Olajuwon

then there's Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc

Except Kobe is ahead of Bird, Duncan, Lebron, and Hakeem.

Then again no one cares what your top ten is :rolleyes:

RaiderLakersA's
12-06-2012, 05:34 PM
Just means he shoots a lot.

Interesting slant. Better intrepretation: It also means that he MADE a lot.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 05:34 PM
Except Kobe is ahead of Bird, Duncan, Lebron, and Hakeem.

Then again no one cares what your top ten is :rolleyes:

Not on my list he's not. Kobe is 10th on my list with only Lebron behind him, but that won't be for long.

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 05:35 PM
Except Kobe is ahead of Bird, Duncan, Lebron, and Hakeem.

Then again no one cares what your top ten is :rolleyes:That's your "opinion" that he's ahead of those guys. But nobody cares about that either

I'd glady take any of them over Kobe

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 05:37 PM
Not on my list he's not. Kobe is 10th on my list with only Lebron behind him, but that won't be for long.what is your top 10 all time list? If ya don't mind

Chronz
12-06-2012, 05:48 PM
Why cant we have a peaceful Kobe thread once in awhile?

Chronz
12-06-2012, 05:48 PM
what is your top 10 all time list? If ya don't mind

If you have Bird ahead of Kobe, your a hater

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 05:52 PM
what is your top 10 all time list? If ya don't mind

My top 15 list looks sort of like this:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Bill Russell
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Lebron James
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Julius Erving

My 4-6 are really the only guys I vary on from list to list, but usually my 1-3 and 7-15 are pretty much identical to that.

Chronz
12-06-2012, 05:57 PM
My top 15 list looks sort of like this:

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Bill Russell
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant


OK can you explain a few things

You obviously value winning because you have the traditional names. Russ ahead of Wilt. KAJ+Magic neatly packed together. Bird I assume is right next to them because he nearly matches him in titles without another player on the same list and because I assume you have a hard time believing Bird and Magic can be so distinctly different in their careers.

But then you have Wilt ahead of Duncan/Shaq/Kobe? Can you explain that, hes got less chips than all of them save for your idol, who you still ranked behind Wilt.

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-06-2012, 06:07 PM
i dunno if he's in the top 10, it's close though. i can't put him ahead of Shaq, or Tim Duncan, or LeBron James. he's about at Olajuwon's level overall, but i'd take a prime Olajuwon anyday over a prime Kobe.

top 10 ever in my opinion

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlin
Kareem Abdul-Jabar
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Hakeem Olajuwon

then there's Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc

Lol at lebron being in the top 10 smh

Kobe is closer to top 5 then being outside the top 10

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-06-2012, 06:09 PM
Kobe haters always say he's barely a top 10 player or not even top 10, haha obviously the hate blinds them!

Lakers + Giants
12-06-2012, 06:10 PM
If you have Bird ahead of Kobe, your a hater

*You're


Eat THAT, Chronz!

:laugh2:

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 06:11 PM
My top 15 list looks sort of like this:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Bill Russell
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Lebron James
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Julius Erving

My 4-6 are really the only guys I vary on from list to list, but usually my 1-3 and 7-15 are pretty much identical to that.nice, looks alot like my top 10

Supreme LA
12-06-2012, 06:12 PM
That's your "opinion" that he's ahead of those guys. But nobody cares about that either

I'd glady take any of them over Kobe

And nobody really cares who you'd take over Kobe because you obviously have a bias against him :eyebrow:

Supreme LA
12-06-2012, 06:15 PM
Not on my list he's not. Kobe is 10th on my list with only Lebron behind him, but that won't be for long.

And nobody cares about your list either :eyebrow:

Many of you act like your top ten list means a damn thing. Everyone has a bias and having Kobe behind Bird or Hakeem all-time is complete garbage.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 06:15 PM
OK can you explain a few things

You obviously value winning because you have the traditional names. Russ ahead of Wilt. KAJ+Magic neatly packed together. Bird I assume is right next to them because he nearly matches him in titles without another player on the same list and because I assume you have a hard time believing Bird and Magic can be so distinctly different in their careers.

But then you have Wilt ahead of Duncan/Shaq/Kobe? Can you explain that, hes got less chips than all of them save for your idol, who you still ranked behind Wilt.

It's sort of the same reasoning for Bird and Magic. If you have one in a certain slot, you can't have one too far behind. And sometimes I do put Wilt behind Hakeem and Duncan. It sort of depends on what numbers or context I'm paying most attention to that day. But winning has to be coupled with numbers and Wilt's numbers are hard to deny to a certain point. Every time I put him too far down the list, I look at his numbers and second guess myself. It's the same reason I have Lebron where I do. His numbers are worthy of top 3-5 consideration, but he either needs more longevity or more titles to crack the top 10.

As for Hakeem, he's the one guy I don't really use logic with, because he only has two titles and his numbers aren't as good as Duncan or Shaq's. BUT his postseason stats are arguably as good and he beat Shaq handily in the Finals, which gives me a reason to place him as high as I want to. I just have homer goggles on when I look at his career.

Supreme LA
12-06-2012, 06:16 PM
nice, looks alot like my top 10

And you know what you guys share in common? Both of you are Kobe haters so nobody is surprised.

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 06:16 PM
If you have Bird ahead of Kobe, your a haterHow? Bird was better at basically everything. look at their stats side by side. Kobe has a slight edge in PPG but only because Bird was such a better passer, he glady dished the ball to the open guy. I'd argue Bird was a much more efficient scorer(shot a better FG%, took smarter shots, etc). besides ppg barely, Bird beats him at everything else

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 06:17 PM
And nobody cares about your list either :eyebrow:

Many of you act like your top ten list means a damn thing. Everyone has a bias and having Kobe behind Bird or Hakeem all-time is complete garbage.

Quit being an *******. Just because someone disagrees with where your precious Kobe belongs on an all-time list doesn't make our opinions "garbage." Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't know you, but I'm willing to bet I've read and studied a hell of a lot more about the league than you have. And I'm more than willing to bet that I have far more evidence to back up Kobe not being higher than 10th than you do to place him higher than 10th.

seikou8
12-06-2012, 06:21 PM
And nobody cares about your list either :eyebrow:

Many of you act like your top ten list means a damn thing. Everyone has a bias and having Kobe behind Bird or Hakeem all-time is complete garbage.

dont watch then

beliges
12-06-2012, 06:22 PM
That's your "opinion" that he's ahead of those guys. But nobody cares about that either

I'd glady take any of them over Kobe

While that might be an opinion, if you look at each players' accomplishments, successes and dominance throughout their careers, Kobe is ahead of each of those guys quite clearly.

mngopher35
12-06-2012, 06:22 PM
How? Bird was better at basically everything. look at their stats side by side. Kobe has a slight edge in PPG but only because Bird was such a better passer, he glady dished the ball to the open guy. Everything else Bird beats him at

You can have prime Bird over prime Kobe, but does longevity mean nothing to you? Kobe has been playing at an amazing level for a very long time. Also Kobe had superior defense to bird as well. I agree with you that I'd probably take prime bird over Kobe but the longevity of Kobe is enough to move him up in my ranks.

nickdymez
12-06-2012, 06:25 PM
Not on my list he's not. Kobe is 10th on my list with only Lebron behind him, but that won't be for long.

You have Lebron 11th all time only after 9 seasons? and 1 ring?

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 06:32 PM
While that might be an opinion, if you look at each players' accomplishments, successes and dominance throughout their careers, Kobe is ahead of each of those guys quite clearly.

How? Bird and Hakeem both have statistically superior numbers to Kobe in terms of PER and WS/48. Also, Bird has more MVPs and Hakeem has as many MVPs, plus two DPOY awards. And for anyone who wants to argue playoff numbers, Hakeem's absolutely crush Kobe's. And even if you DON'T want to use advance stats, Hakeem and Bird posted superior numbers in their primes.

The only way you can argue Kobe over Bird or Hakeem is longevity, and I'd much rather have 5-10 phenomenal years than 15 really good years.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 06:38 PM
You have Lebron 11th all time only after 9 seasons? and 1 ring?

He's second in career PER and sixth in career WS/48. He's also tied with Bird, Magic and Moses at 3 MVPs and he already has two Olympic gold medals. Even if you don't agree with advanced stats, how about the fact that he's third in career points per game while being extremely efficient? And if you don't think he belongs at 11th, who are you going to put ahead of him? Oscar, Moses, Erving, West, Garnett and Nowitzki all only have one ring and Barkley, Robinson and Malone have none.

If you DON'T think Lebron deserves to be 11th, I think you're just burying your head in the sand.

LAKERMANIA
12-06-2012, 06:38 PM
How? Bird and Hakeem both have statistically superior numbers to Kobe in terms of PER and WS/48.
Wrong about Bird having superior PER

(Career)
Kobe Bryant PER: 23.5
Larry Bird PER: 23.5

Kobe Bryant WS/48: .185
Larry Bird WS/48: .203

Kobe Bryant WS: 166
Larry Bird WS: 145.8


The only way you can argue Kobe over Bird or Hakeem is longevity, and I'd much rather have 5-10 phenomenal years than 15 really good years.

:confused: you would?

beliges
12-06-2012, 06:45 PM
How? Bird and Hakeem both have statistically superior numbers to Kobe in terms of PER and WS/48. Also, Bird has more MVPs and Hakeem has as many MVPs, plus two DPOY awards. And for anyone who wants to argue playoff numbers, Hakeem's absolutely crush Kobe's. And even if you DON'T want to use advance stats, Hakeem and Bird posted superior numbers in their primes.

The only way you can argue Kobe over Bird or Hakeem is longevity, and I'd much rather have 5-10 phenomenal years than 15 really good years.

Sorry, i dont take much consideration into PER and WS/48 and other "stats" like that. Kobe has more 1st Team ALL-NBA picks, more ALL DEFENSIVE TEAM PICKS, more All-star appearances, more Finals appearances, more titles, Just as many Finals MVPs, has had a substantially longer period of elite level play, and dominated his era moreso than Bird or Hakeem ever did.

Hakeem's #s most certainly dont "crush" Kobe's by any means whatsoever. Not even close. Neither do Bird's. Lastky, Kobe's Prime #'s are just as good, if not better than Birds or Hakeem's. That would be my arguments over your advanced, statistics that you seem to use as the only support you have.

Im not even really taking into consideration that Kobe did substantially more with similar or lesser talent than Bird ever did during his playing years with the Celtics. Furthermore, Kobe went to a total of 7 Finals and won 5 championships while Hakeem managed to get only two. Again, what most people fail to always bring up when trying to discredit Kobe is that while individual numbers are nice and all, they dont mean much unless you can translate them into wins. Carmelo has had great numbers during his NBA tenure, but they have never translated into wins.

Im of the opinion that its absolutely silly to place Hakeem or Bird ahead of Kobe with everything Kobe has accomplished. His career achievements and successes actually dwarf that of Bird's and Hakeem's. These aspects to me (what you actually accomplish on the court) are far more significant than one's PER.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 06:46 PM
Wrong about Bird having superior PER

(Career)
Kobe Bryant PER: 23.5
Larry Bird PER: 23.5

Kobe Bryant WS/48: .185
Larry Bird WS/48: .203

Kobe Bryant WS: 166
Larry Bird WS: 145.8

Bird is currently at 23.5 and Kobe is at 23.48, so technically his is a little better. Thank you for nitpicking that one point. But Bird still has more MVPs, a much higher WS/48 and more titles as an alpha dog playing against superior competition than anything Kobe has faced. Bird played on teams that beat two of the top five greatest players in the history of the NBA in their primes in the NBA Finals. No other franchise can claim that.


:confused: you would?
If you're making an all-time list, shouldn't you rank players based on how good they were at the height of their ability? If so, yes, give me Bird and Dream's peaks over Kobe's.

beliges
12-06-2012, 06:49 PM
He's second in career PER and sixth in career WS/48. He's also tied with Bird, Magic and Moses at 3 MVPs and he already has two Olympic gold medals. Even if you don't agree with advanced stats, how about the fact that he's third in career points per game while being extremely efficient? And if you don't think he belongs at 11th, who are you going to put ahead of him? Oscar, Moses, Erving, West, Garnett and Nowitzki all only have one ring and Barkley, Robinson and Malone have none.

If you DON'T think Lebron deserves to be 11th, I think you're just burying your head in the sand.

Well obviously then...lol. You guys are too funny with these stats sometimes.

According to your beloved PER, Neil Johnson is better than Magic. This is all you need to know about using PER as a legitimate source to backk your statements. Lets put it this way, if PER is your strongest argument, that should tell you a little something about how weak your point is.

This however is simply one man's opinion.

LAKERMANIA
12-06-2012, 06:50 PM
Bird is currently at 23.5 and Kobe is at 23.48, so technically his is a little better. Thank you for nitpicking that one point. But Bird still has more MVPs, a much higher WS/48 and more titles as an alpha dog playing against superior competition than anything Kobe has faced. Bird played on teams that beat two of the top five greatest players in the history of the NBA in their primes in the NBA Finals. No other franchise can claim that.
Sorry but according to basketball reference, Kobe's career PER is at 23.5



If you're making an all-time list, shouldn't you rank players based on how good they were at the height of their ability? If so, yes, give me Bird and Dream's peaks over Kobe's.
I would but I would also take into account Longevity.. All time list has to include everything

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 06:55 PM
Sorry, i dont take much consideration into PER and WS/48 and other "stats" like that. Kobe has more 1st Team ALL-NBA picks, more ALL DEFENSIVE TEAM PICKS, more All-star appearances, more Finals appearances, more titles, Just as many Finals MVPs, has had a substantially longer period of elite level play, and dominated his era moreso than Bird or Hakeem ever did.

Hakeem's #s most certainly dont "crush" Kobe's by any means whatsoever. Not even close. Neither do Bird's. Lastky, Kobe's Prime #'s are just as good, if not better than Birds or Hakeem's. That would be my arguments over your advanced, statistics that you seem to use as the only support you have.

Im not even really taking into consideration that Kobe did substantially more with similar or lesser talent than Bird ever did during his playing years with the Celtics. Furthermore, Kobe went to a total of 7 Finals and won 5 championships while Hakeem managed to get only two. Again, what most people fail to always bring up when trying to discredit Kobe is that while individual numbers are nice and all, they dont mean much unless you can translate them into wins. Carmelo has had great numbers during his NBA tenure, but they have never translated into wins.

Im of the opinion that its absolutely silly to place Hakeem or Bird ahead of Kobe with everything Kobe has accomplished. His career achievements and successes actually dwarf that of Bird's and Hakeem's. These aspects to me (what you actually accomplish on the court) are far more significant than one's PER.take into account that for all of Bird's 3 titles he was the Celtics best player. all Olajuwon's titles he was the best Rockets players

so it's like this, as the #1 option
Bird 3 titles
Olajuwon 2
Kobe 2

those 3 gifts Shaquille gave Kobe inflate his total laughably. Ray Allen, T Mac or Iverson could have replaced Kobe with the same result, Shaq was so dominant then. so that leaves it to the eye test, & my eyes saw Olajuwon was a better playoff player, as well as Bird. same with Shaq & Timmy

amos1er
12-06-2012, 06:56 PM
You have Lebron 11th all time only after 9 seasons? and 1 ring?

:laugh2:

These Lebronites are delusional. Lebron is 15-20 at best on the all time list, and Kobe is easily in the top 8 at worst. Jealousy makes people say the most foolish things. :crazy:

amos1er
12-06-2012, 06:56 PM
take into account that for all of Bird's 3 titles he was the Celtics best player. all Olajuwon's titles he was the best Rockets players

so it's like this, as the #1 option
Bird 3 titles
Olajuwon 2
Kobe 2

those 3 gifts Shaquille gave Kobe inflate his total laughably. Ray Allen, T Mac or Iverson could have replaced Kobe with the same result, Shaq was so dominant then. so that leaves it to the eye test, & my eyes saw Olajuwon was a better playoff player, as well as Bird. same with Shaq & Timmy

Bird was the number one option for 3 titles??? News to me. Last I checked he only had 2 finals MVP's.

LAKERMANIA
12-06-2012, 06:57 PM
take into account that for all of Bird's 3 titles he was the Celtics best player. all Olajuwon's titles he was the best Rockets players

so it's like this, as the #1 option
Bird 3 titles
Olajuwon 2
Kobe 2

those 3 gifts Shaquille gave Kobe inflate his total laughably. Ray Allen, T Mac or Iverson could have replaced Kobe with the same result, Shaq was so dominant then. so that leaves it to the eye test, & my eyes saw Olajuwon was a better playoff player, as well as Bird. same with Shaq & Timmy
Wrong. Kobe was much better defensively than all those players during the initial 3-peat...

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 06:58 PM
Sorry, i dont take much consideration into PER and WS/48 and other "stats" like that.
I love how you quote "stats" as if that somehow demeans them.


Kobe has more 1st Team ALL-NBA picks, more ALL DEFENSIVE TEAM PICKS, more All-star appearances, more Finals appearances, more titles, Just as many Finals MVPs, has had a substantially longer period of elite level play,
Of course the dude is going to play in more all-star games. He's been in the league longer. Or do you not understand how the longevity argument works? If Bird and Hakeem had gotten to play NBA basketball instead of going to college for several years, they'd probably have more individual accolades as well. That's a horrible argument.


and dominated his era moreso than Bird or Hakeem ever did.
This is just a vague generalization and the numbers do not back this up.


Hakeem's #s most certainly dont "crush" Kobe's by any means whatsoever. Not even close.
During their peaks, Hakeem and Bird's number are better. I don't really feel like posting a ton of numbers for every single year to prove my point, but you can pull up their basketball reference pages yourself if you'd like.


Im not even really taking into consideration that Kobe did substantially more with similar or lesser talent than Bird ever did during his playing years with the Celtics.
:laugh: This is so stupid that I kind of want to sig quote it. Kobe won three titles with Shaquille ****ing O'Neal!!!! How is that less talent!?!?! He wasn't even the best player on those three teams and Bird had to play against Kareem and Magic to win his titles!


Furthermore, Kobe went to a total of 7 Finals and won 5 championships while Hakeem managed to get only two.
Look at his supporting cast from 1987-1994 and you'll see why. After Sampson's knees fell apart the best player Hakeem had for that seven-year span (his prime) was Otis freakin' Thorpe. I'd have to look this up, but I believe Dream is the only player in NBA history to win a title as the only All-Star on his team.


Again, what most people fail to always bring up when trying to discredit Kobe is that while individual numbers are nice and all, they dont mean much unless you can translate them into wins.
So then I suppose Fisher and Horry are better than Hakeem and Bird then, too?


Carmelo has had great numbers during his NBA tenure, but they have never translated into wins.
False. His numbers indicate a high volume scorer with a poor outside shoot who can rebound and contributes little in other categories. His numbers are in no way "great."


Im of the opinion that its absolutely silly to place Hakeem or Bird ahead of Kobe with everything Kobe has accomplished. His career achievements and successes actually dwarf that of Bird's and Hakeem's.
Based on what? Kobe tagged along with Shaq to get three rings and has just as many titles as Hakeem as a No. 1. If you put a player of Shaq's caliber on Bird or Hakeem's teams in their prime, you don't think they could have had three more titles? If so, you're an idiot.

amos1er
12-06-2012, 07:00 PM
Sorry but according to basketball reference, Kobe's career PER is at 23.5



I would but I would also take into account Longevity.. All time list has to include everything

In 2006 Kobe was easily the best one on one player of all time. Not sure a prime Bird or Hakeem would be the better choice. Offensively in 2006 Kobe had one of the top 3 greatest seasons of all time and he was all NBA defensive first team. Isn't the best player supposed to be the best player both offensively and defensively. You can keep your rebounds and assists.

mngopher35
12-06-2012, 07:06 PM
How? Bird and Hakeem both have statistically superior numbers to Kobe in terms of PER and WS/48. Also, Bird has more MVPs and Hakeem has as many MVPs, plus two DPOY awards. And for anyone who wants to argue playoff numbers, Hakeem's absolutely crush Kobe's. And even if you DON'T want to use advance stats, Hakeem and Bird posted superior numbers in their primes.

The only way you can argue Kobe over Bird or Hakeem is longevity, and I'd much rather have 5-10 phenomenal years than 15 really good years.

I don't think their prime's were so much different that it would be worth having Bird for the less years. Bird has 7 years of per in the 20's and ws/48 above .2. Kobe has 6 years of that elite level of play and is currently on pace to get his 7th. On top of that they have the same career per. If you take into account 3 of his last 4 years he was injured a ton and not quite at that same level we are talking 10 years of really great play for Bird while kobe is in his 14th year of really great play. On top of this Kobe was a better defender than bird. Then lastly you have the accolades in kobe's favor as well. I think its pretty close but I think Bird should be just behind Kobe on the list so you have bird a little too high.

LAKERMANIA
12-06-2012, 07:07 PM
I don't think their prime's were so much different that it would be worth having Bird for the less years. Bird has 7 years of per in the 20's and ws/48 above .2. Kobe has 6 years of that elite level of play and is currently on pace to get his 7th. On top of that they have the same career per. If you take into account 3 of his last 4 years he was injured a ton and not quite at that same level we are talking 10 years of really great play for Bird while kobe is in his 14th year of really great play. On top of this Kobe was a better defender than bird. Then lastly you have the accolades in kobe's favor as well. I think its pretty close but I think Bird should be just behind Kobe on the list so you have bird a little too high.

Yeah I don't understand that either, I'm waiting for him to respond. Good post btw.

Matter.
12-06-2012, 07:08 PM
I take the GOAT's opinion over anyone else... Jordan said the only player that should be compared to me is Kobe Bryant.

Borough
12-06-2012, 07:12 PM
Congratulations Kobe, a great achievement

beliges
12-06-2012, 07:14 PM
I love how you quote "stats" as if that somehow demeans them.


Of course the dude is going to play in more all-star games. He's been in the league longer. Or do you not understand how the longevity argument works? If Bird and Hakeem had gotten to play NBA basketball instead of going to college for several years, they'd probably have more individual accolades as well. That's a horrible argument.


This is just a vague generalization and the numbers do not back this up.


During their peaks, Hakeem and Bird's number are better. I don't really feel like posting a ton of numbers for every single year to prove my point, but you can pull up their basketball reference pages yourself if you'd like.


:laugh: This is so stupid that I kind of want to sig quote it. Kobe won three titles with Shaquille ****ing O'Neal!!!! How is that less talent!?!?! He wasn't even the best player on those three teams and Bird had to play against Kareem and Magic to win his titles!


Look at his supporting cast from 1987-1994 and you'll see why. After Sampson's knees fell apart the best player Hakeem had for that seven-year span (his prime) was Otis freakin' Thorpe. I'd have to look this up, but I believe Dream is the only player in NBA history to win a title as the only All-Star on his team.


So then I suppose Fisher and Horry are better than Hakeem and Bird then, too?


False. His numbers indicate a high volume scorer with a poor outside shoot who can rebound and contributes little in other categories. His numbers are in no way "great."


Based on what? Kobe tagged along with Shaq to get three rings and has just as many titles as Hakeem as a No. 1. If you put a player of Shaq's caliber on Bird or Hakeem's teams in their prime, you don't think they could have had three more titles? If so, you're an idiot.

I use "..." on stats because PER is a fabricated statistic. Not a raw statistic. I just dont put any value in them whatsoever. As I stated, PER stated that Neil Johnson was better than Magic. Its silly.

Not only did dude play in more all-star games, but dude also was chosen for much more ALL NBA TEAMS, ALL-NBA DEFENSIIVE Teams, and even though he did play for much longer, his prime lasted as long as Bird's entire career.

Kobe's teams with Shaq werent any more talented than Bird's Celtics. Yes, Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq, while Bird won 3 with Parish, McHale, Johnson, Ainge and Co. However, Kobe went to 3 Finals and two more titles with a far less talented team from 08-10 than Bird ever had.

Fisher and Horry are obviously not better than Hakeem. They were never leaders. This is a favorite argument for people like yourself to downgrade a player leading his team to titles. Hakeem was a leader in two title teams. Kobe on the other hand was one for 5 championships.

You seem to state Kobe's #'s are not "great." I would suggest you look up his numbers from 2000-current. His numbers are as good as anyone else's outside of MJs of course. Not only were his numbers spectacular, but his defense was on another galaxy as compared to Bird's. While Bird was a better rebounder, Kobe was a better scorer, had better footwork, had better fundamentals.

Sorry, once again, if you can produce some credible evidence outside of PER to show how Bird or Hakeem had better career's than Kobe, and thus were better players, Id listen with open ears. But it seems your points are all very easily refutable.

savvy1803
12-06-2012, 07:29 PM
And you know what you guys share in common? Both of you are Kobe haters so nobody is surprised.

This .

jayjay33
12-06-2012, 07:37 PM
I couldnt disagree with you more. In his prime, he was arguably the greatest scorer to ever live. He was dropping 50 points at will against any team.
Both of these are wildly inaccurate. His scoring efficiency doesn't belong in the same breath as MJ or Lebron. And if he was "dropping 50 points at will" he would have averaged 50 points a game. You're either misremembering history or refuse to look at statistics.


Also during that time, he was one of the 5 best perimeter defenders in the league.
Most all-time great perimeter players were, including Shaq, Lebron and Bird. That is not an unusual feat.


I would argue that his lack of multiple MVSs was a result of bias and blatant disregard for his achievements. Not one perimeter player outside of MJ had his combination of dominating offense and defense.
The first sentence is pure nonsense. Look at the numbers and the context and you'll see he was only deserving of an MVP once and that was in 05-06. And I would argue that there are quite a few perimeter players who were great offensively and defensively.


The fact that you say he will never touch the top 5 is laughable at best. The individuals that are CLEARLY ahead of Kobe at this point in his career are Kareem and MJ. There is not another player that was clearly better than Kobe. You can argue Russell and Wilt (given the fact they are past legends). It makes no sense to state he has a top 5 resume but wont qualify as a top 5 player. THe resume makes the player. His numbers from 2000-current (prime years) are as good as anyone else I would argue.
The resume has to include stats. You can't just say "Oh wow! Look at all those All-Star games and Championships!" No. Statistically, the guys ahead of him are ahead of him for a reason. Also, his lack of MVPs is a huge mark on his career, IMO. He didn't even deserve the one he got.


And for you to say that he was not considered the best player in the league at any point in time during this decade is simply illogical. The general consensus among NBA GMs and Coaches and Players is that Kobe was the greatest player of 00-10 decade.
Lol. No it's not. If you asked 100 people close to the league who the best player of the decade was and you'll get far more Tim Duncans than Kobe Bryants. Duncan impacted the game in far more ways than Kobe ever did.


I believe he achieved that recognition by a significant margin as well.
Based on what? Duncan has more titles as an alpha dog, more MVPs and his prime statistically takes a huge dump on Kobe's prime. I have no clue what you're using as a barometer, but it certainly isn't logic or statistics.


And using your own argument, I can say that not a single player was ever considered the absolute best in the league at any point other than MJ. It was always Wilt and Russel. Kareem and Wilt. Magic and Bird. And etc..
But it was at least debatable between two guys. And most of those years, you'd be wrong, because one guy was clearly better than the other. Kobe's stats were never statistically among the two best in the league at any given time, except for arguably in 05-06. Earlier in his career, Shaq and Duncan dominated, and later in his career, it was Lebron, Paul, Wade and Dwight. Kobe was never the best player in the NBA at any given time, and I dare you to provide me statistical evidence otherwise.


Kobe, im certain has done enough and achieved enough to go down as a top 5 player when its all said and done, and probably the 2nd greatest perimeter player to ever play.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not "certain" in any way. Look at his scoring efficiency and you'll see that he just doesn't stack up to other, better players. Right now, he's probably a top 10 guy. But by the time Lebron retires, Kobe will probably get knocked out of the top 10 and we'll see just how much better Lebron was than Kobe in their primes.


So Kobe was never the best player in the league but Larry bird was a top 5 perimeter defender. Man you guys and these advance stats, I mean good god.

Why even talk bball, just post the stats and call it a day......this is just getting ridiculous.

mngopher35
12-06-2012, 07:40 PM
I use "..." on stats because PER is a fabricated statistic. Not a raw statistic. I just dont put any value in them whatsoever. As I stated, PER stated that Neil Johnson was better than Magic. Its silly.

Not only did dude play in more all-star games, but dude also was chosen for much more ALL NBA TEAMS, ALL-NBA DEFENSIIVE Teams, and even though he did play for much longer, his prime lasted as long as Bird's entire career.

Kobe's teams with Shaq werent any more talented than Bird's Celtics. Yes, Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq, while Bird won 3 with Parish, McHale, Johnson, Ainge and Co. However, Kobe went to 3 Finals and two more titles with a far less talented team from 08-10 than Bird ever had.

Fisher and Horry are obviously not better than Hakeem. They were never leaders. This is a favorite argument for people like yourself to downgrade a player leading his team to titles. Hakeem was a leader in two title teams. Kobe on the other hand was one for 5 championships.

You seem to state Kobe's #'s are not "great." I would suggest you look up his numbers from 2000-current. His numbers are as good as anyone else's outside of MJs of course. Not only were his numbers spectacular, but his defense was on another galaxy as compared to Bird's. While Bird was a better rebounder, Kobe was a better scorer, had better footwork, had better fundamentals.

Sorry, once again, if you can produce some credible evidence outside of PER to show how Bird or Hakeem had better career's than Kobe, and thus were better players, Id listen with open ears. But it seems your points are all very easily refutable.

I disagree on the Hakeem part. I actually have Hakeem, Kobe, then Bird all next to each other in that order. Kobe's longevity doesn't really trump Hakeem. Then you get to the impact each had on the court. Kobe was the better offensive player, I agree with that. On the other hand Hakeem dominated defensively and was an anchor on defense. He won DPOY twice and although Kobes defense was very good, Hakeems was better and as a big made a much bigger impact. So offensively throughout their careers we have 21.8ppg 11rpg and 2.5 apg vs 25.6 ppg 5.1 rpg 4.7 apg. The impact each had for their offense gives Kobe the advantage here but rebounding and creating extra opportunities for the team can help close the gap a little bit. Defensively however IMO the impact hakeem had was much larger than Kobe. Yes kobe was good 1v1 defender but hakeem made up for his entire team's mistakes while being good vs his own guy. I think that the gap of impact defensively is greater than the offensive one, but lets just call them even at this point. Lastly we get to their playoff performance and Hakeem's numbers go up and he was clearly the better playoff and finals performer of the two. If you want expanding on the last part I will, but I feel like most would agree.

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 07:51 PM
I use "..." on stats because PER is a fabricated statistic. Not a raw statistic. I just dont put any value in them whatsoever. As I stated, PER stated that Neil Johnson was better than Magic. Its silly.
Obviously all stats require context. Which is why I've provided plenty of it.


Not only did dude play in more all-star games, but dude also was chosen for much more ALL NBA TEAMS, ALL-NBA DEFENSIIVE Teams, and even though he did play for much longer, his prime lasted as long as Bird's entire career.
If you think that Kobe is a better defensive player than Hakeem was, then you shouldn't be arguing basketball. You should be playing board games and attempting to color inside the lines, because you are a moron.

In fact, this statement alone makes me done with this argument. We clearly agree to disagree, and I'm done trying to argue with all the idiotic Kobephiles. If you want to believe he's a top 5 player and that he ***** gold coins, go for it.

LAKERMANIA
12-06-2012, 07:54 PM
Obviously all stats require context. Which is why I've provided plenty of it.


If you think that Kobe is a better defensive player than Hakeem was, then you shouldn't be arguing basketball. You should be playing board games and attempting to color inside the lines, because you are a moron.

In fact, this statement alone makes me done with this argument. We clearly agree to disagree, and I'm done trying to argue with all the idiotic Kobephiles. If you want to believe he's a top 5 player and that he ***** gold coins, go for it.

I think you missed a good amount of posts that require responses from you..

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 08:00 PM
Bird was the number one option for 3 titles??? News to me. Last I checked he only had 2 finals MVP's.yes, he was the #1 option even the year he didn't get finals mvp. Cedric Maxwell got finals mvps in 1981. But nobody in their right mind would call Maxwell better than Bird. He never even made an all-star team ever.

Bird was their best player for 5 trips to the finals, 3 titles
Kobe best Lakers player for 3 trips to the finals, 2 titles

like Tim Duncan was the Spurs best player for all 4 titles. even though Tony Parker squeaked out the finals mvp in 2007, Tim was definitely still their best player that year (probably his last year being their best player)

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 08:05 PM
I think you missed a good amount of posts that require responses from you..

I'm not going to address every single Kobephile. I've already stated my position on this and it's not going to change. Kobe and Bird have similar career totals, but Bird's peak is a little stronger than Kobe's. Also, Larry Bird was a very good perimeter defender and I don't think Kobe was significantly better in that regard. Whereas Bird was clearly a superior passer and rebounder. And he faced superior teams in his era with less talent than Kobe. McHale and Parish were a great No. 2 and No. 3, but anyone who thinks they have more of an impact than Shaq are crazy.

And one thing that I think people always fail to mention when talking about Kobe's longevity is that he got a good four-year head start on almost everyone in the history of the league. And he actually had a five-year start on Bird, who took a year off after leaving Indiana before playing three years at Indiana State. You don't think Bird's individual accolades could have benefited from five more years in the league?

mightybosstone
12-06-2012, 08:08 PM
In 2006 Kobe was easily the best one on one player of all time. Not sure a prime Bird or Hakeem would be the better choice. Offensively in 2006 Kobe had one of the top 3 greatest seasons of all time and he was all NBA defensive first team.
To someone who completely ignores things like efficiency and advanced stats, I can see why you might think that. Also, I think it's funny that people want to bring up Kobe's team success to justify his career, but no one mentions how mediocre the team was in 05-06 when he had arguably the greatest season of his career.


Isn't the best player supposed to be the best player both offensively and defensively. You can keep your rebounds and assists.
Since when? Do you think Kobe was a better defender than Bynum or Artest the last few seasons? Was MJ a better defender than Pippen or Rodman? This is one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. And you guys act as if Bird was an awful perimeter defender, which is totally false.

LAKERMANIA
12-06-2012, 08:13 PM
I'm not going to address every single Kobephile. I've already stated my position on this and it's not going to change. Kobe and Bird have similar career totals, but Bird's peak is a little stronger than Kobe's. Also, Larry Bird was a very good perimeter defender and I don't think Kobe was significantly better in that regard. Whereas Bird was clearly a superior passer and rebounder. And he faced superior teams in his era with less talent than Kobe. McHale and Parish were a great No. 2 and No. 3, but anyone who thinks they have more of an impact than Shaq are crazy.

And one thing that I think people always fail to mention when talking about Kobe's longevity is that he got a good four-year head start on almost everyone in the history of the league. And he actually had a five-year start on Bird, who took a year off after leaving Indiana before playing three years at Indiana State. You don't think Bird's individual accolades could have benefited from five more years in the league?

You call this a Kobephile post?

I don't think their prime's were so much different that it would be worth having Bird for the less years. Bird has 7 years of per in the 20's and ws/48 above .2. Kobe has 6 years of that elite level of play and is currently on pace to get his 7th. On top of that they have the same career per. If you take into account 3 of his last 4 years he was injured a ton and not quite at that same level we are talking 10 years of really great play for Bird while kobe is in his 14th year of really great play. On top of this Kobe was a better defender than bird. Then lastly you have the accolades in kobe's favor as well. I think its pretty close but I think Bird should be just behind Kobe on the list so you have bird a little too high.

AIRMAR72
12-06-2012, 08:13 PM
Congrats to Kobe Bryant from day1 he wanted to be JUST like mike except Micheal Jordan was injuried his rookie yr and retired twice and kobe played for 17yrs straight ironman style taking shots from angles and distance on the court

Bishnoff
12-06-2012, 08:14 PM
Amazing effort. Congrats Kobe.

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 08:14 PM
that's why college championships really need to be taken into account far more than they are, & not just NBA legacy but overall basketball legacy. Michael actaully has 7 titles, because his 1 title with north carolina where he hit the game winner in the championship game. actually a college title is tougher because 1 loss & you're out

beliges
12-06-2012, 08:17 PM
Obviously all stats require context. Which is why I've provided plenty of it.


If you think that Kobe is a better defensive player than Hakeem was, then you shouldn't be arguing basketball. You should be playing board games and attempting to color inside the lines, because you are a moron.

In fact, this statement alone makes me done with this argument. We clearly agree to disagree, and I'm done trying to argue with all the idiotic Kobephiles. If you want to believe he's a top 5 player and that he ***** gold coins, go for it.

Dont think I ever mentioned something like before. I think Hakeem was a better defender than Jordan ever was. That should speak volumes as to whether or not I think Kobe was a better defender. I never compare bigs to smalls. Theres no point to compare. However, Kobe's defense is not even comparable to Bird's. I would say Kobe is possibly one of the top 20 or so perimeter defenders to ever play the game. The ALL-NBA Selections are sufficient to put him on that realm I would argue. It seems most NBA GMs and Coaches would agree with that sentiment as they are the ones that have voted him into the most 1st Team ALL NBA Selections out of any guard that has ever played this game.

It seems you simply made up an argument for me and proceeded to call me idiotic based on your fabrication, which, I would assume just goes to the fact you dont have much of an argument to make.

Lastly, I never said Kobe is a clear top 5 player yet at this point. However, one thing that is clear is that one cannot possibly name 5 guys that have garnered more success, and more achievements than Kobe. His career achievements are fairly among the 5 greatests to have ever played.

As I had indicated previously, everyone has opinions. But one cannot argue against achievements. You can state that Hakeem or Bird are better and that would be your opinion. But history and achievements and success will prove you wrong in each case.

beliges
12-06-2012, 08:18 PM
that's why college championships really need to be taken into account far more than they are, & not just NBA legacy but overall basketball legacy. Michael actaully has 7 titles, because his 1 title with north carolina where he hit the game winner in the championship game. actually a college title is tougher because 1 loss & you're out

If College Careers are gonna come into play, Kareem is clearly the greatest player of all time. He would pass MJ in that case.

hidalgo
12-06-2012, 08:19 PM
to me Ewing is a champion, he got one in college. same goes for Carmello Anthony

amos1er
12-07-2012, 12:47 AM
Kobe gets into the 30,000 club just as I reach my own milestone of the 5,000 posts club. Oh ya!!! :clap:

shep33
12-07-2012, 12:53 AM
College titles shouldn't mean anything for defining NBA careers. If you put LeBron, KG, Kobe, and Dirk on some NCAA teams, they'd have even more titles.

amos1er
12-07-2012, 01:09 AM
to me Ewing is a champion, he got one in college. same goes for Carmello Anthony

lol...you count college titles yet you don't credit Kobe for his first three NBA titles at all. Logic. :down:

mngopher35
12-07-2012, 02:52 AM
Another thing to consider is that if Kobe went to college his game would have been more polished and have a better start to his career than he did. Also taking away his first four years he still has 13 years of great/elite play after this year. I don't think you can punish him for coming in early, but I get that some former players didn't have the same advantage.

Money_23
12-07-2012, 11:38 AM
why do people only justify the championship argument for the best player on the team and not the second best player on the team? Not that they have the same value but if the second best player contributed alot then they certainly should count for something.

mightybosstone
12-07-2012, 11:53 AM
Dont think I ever mentioned something like before. I think Hakeem was a better defender than Jordan ever was. That should speak volumes as to whether or not I think Kobe was a better defender. I never compare bigs to smalls. Theres no point to compare. However, Kobe's defense is not even comparable to Bird's. I would say Kobe is possibly one of the top 20 or so perimeter defenders to ever play the game. The ALL-NBA Selections are sufficient to put him on that realm I would argue. It seems most NBA GMs and Coaches would agree with that sentiment as they are the ones that have voted him into the most 1st Team ALL NBA Selections out of any guard that has ever played this game.

It seems you simply made up an argument for me and proceeded to call me idiotic based on your fabrication, which, I would assume just goes to the fact you dont have much of an argument to make.
It's because you keep referring to All-NBA teams and All-NBA Defensive teams as if that means something. First off, Kobe didn't deserve A LOT of the All-Defensive honors he won. The only reason he gets them is because he's a superstar and superstars too often get accolades they don't deserve. He made all-defensive first teams in 08-09 and 09-10 over guys like Shane Battier, Ron Artest, Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng, Thabo Sefolosha and Tayshaun Prince (who was still elite at the time). But look at the All-District First-Team over the last decade and you'll see they more often than not just give superstars the benefit of the doubt if they're pretty good defenders.

Has Kobe been a top five perimeter defender at times in the league? Yes. But was he deserving of that many All-Defensive teams? Hell no. And you're also operating under the assumption of Larry Bird not being a great perimeter defender. Have you seen Bird play? Because I haven't, but everything I've ever read on the guy says he was a a great perimeter defender. They just didn't hand out All-Defensive honors to superstars in the 80s like they do today.


Lastly, I never said Kobe is a clear top 5 player yet at this point. However, one thing that is clear is that one cannot possibly name 5 guys that have garnered more success, and more achievements than Kobe. His career achievements are fairly among the 5 greatests to have ever played.
:confused: Than WTF are you arguing with me? Look back at my original posts and you'll see that I actually agree with you in that his accomplishments, titles, etc. are worthy of being in the top five discussion. It's his statistical production and the context of those titles that keeps him from ever reaching the all-time top five in my book. To legitimately reach level, he would have to break the points record, win at least one or two more titles as the alpha dog and keep putting up these insanely efficient numbers he's averaging this year for another four or five seasons. Another MVP would also probably be required.

That's just not happening...


As I had indicated previously, everyone has opinions. But one cannot argue against achievements. You can state that Hakeem or Bird are better and that would be your opinion. But history and achievements and success will prove you wrong in each case.
But that's ********, because things like All-NBA and All-Defensive teams are voted on and not always fairly. Just like he shouldn't have won his MVP in 08-09, but probably should have won it in 05-06. Plus, you're acting as if having more All-NBA selections makes him a better player. Hello! He's been in the league longer and had a 4-5 year head start on those guys!!! OF COURSE he's going to have more. That's common sense, and you seem like a smart enough guy that you should know that.

Basically, you're just valuing longevity, while I prefer a player's peak and prime. You can argue that Kobe's numbers are quite similar to Bird and Hakeem's, but those guys won in their titles in greater circumstances than Kobe did and I think their MVPs are more worthy than Kobe's was. Hakeem was also one of the greatest defenders in the history of the NBA and his impact on defense, coupled with his insane offensive skills will always put him ahead of Kobe for me barring some freak finish to the Mamba's career.

Bottom line, I have a lot of respect for Kobe Bryant. I think he's the 10th greatest player in the history of the NBA. But at the end of the day, I'll always prefer guys like Bird and Hakeem, because I just think they were better basketball players at their peak than Kobe was. Period.

mightybosstone
12-07-2012, 12:01 PM
why do people only justify the championship argument for the best player on the team and not the second best player on the team? Not that they have the same value but if the second best player contributed alot then they certainly should count for something.

It should account for something. It certainly should. But people bring up Kobe's five rings like he was the reason those rings happened. He was certainly the alpha dog on the second two teams (although I would argue Pau deserved the second Finals MVP). No one's arguing that.

But let's play a hypothetical game here. Suppose we replace Kobe on those ridiculous Laker teams from the early 2000s. Put someone like Pierce or McGrady in his place. Clearly lesser players from the same era, but very good nontheless. Do they still win those titles? I think so. Now replace Shaq with a top 3-5 center from that era like Alonzo Mourning (in 2000) or Jermaine O'Neal. Do those teams still win those titles? Maybe one at most, but I don't see it happening.

My point is that there are guys who have won titles against more talented teams with a hell of a lot less talent around them. And just because you have five rings doesn't mean we shouldn't look at the context of those rings just like you would for guys like Horry and Fisher.

hidalgo
12-07-2012, 12:56 PM
College titles shouldn't mean anything for defining NBA careers. If you put LeBron, KG, Kobe, and Dirk on some NCAA teams, they'd have even more titles.No telling. That national championship is extremely tough to win. You gotta run the gauntlet of march madness. 1 & done

beliges
12-07-2012, 12:57 PM
why do people only justify the championship argument for the best player on the team and not the second best player on the team? Not that they have the same value but if the second best player contributed alot then they certainly should count for something.

It should account for something. It certainly should. But people bring up Kobe's five rings like he was the reason those rings happened. He was certainly the alpha dog on the second two teams (although I would argue Pau deserved the second Finals MVP). No one's arguing that.

But let's play a hypothetical game here. Suppose we replace Kobe on those ridiculous Laker teams from the early 2000s. Put someone like Pierce or McGrady in his place. Clearly lesser players from the same era, but very good nontheless. Do they still win those titles? I think so. Now replace Shaq with a top 3-5 center from that era like Alonzo Mourning (in 2000) or Jermaine O'Neal. Do those teams still win those titles? Maybe one at most, but I don't see it happening.

My point is that there are guys who have won titles against more talented teams with a hell of a lot less talent around them. And just because you have five rings doesn't mean we shouldn't look at the context of those rings just like you would for guys like Horry and Fisher.

Replace Shaw with KG or Duncan and Lakers win the same titles.and maybe more as kg and Duncan didn't allow themselves to.get out of shape after 03. The same arguments can be made on.both sides.

beliges
12-07-2012, 12:58 PM
In his 1,180th career regular season game, with a career scoring average of 25.4 PPG, with 10,460 field goals made & 7,542 free throws made, Kobe Bryant has become the 5th member of the elusive 30K (regular season) pts club behind the legendary Captain, Mailman, His Airness and the Big Dipper. The Black Mamba is now a part of NBA Scoring Royalty.



1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1,560 15,837 6,712 24.6 38,387
2. Karl Malone 1,476 13,528 9,787 25.0 36,928
3. Michael Jordan 1,072 12,192 7,327 30.1 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain 1,045 12,681 6,057 30.1 31,419

Kobe did in in the fewest minutes played out of anybody except for MJ.

RaiderLakersA's
12-07-2012, 01:18 PM
It should account for something. It certainly should. But people bring up Kobe's five rings like he was the reason those rings happened. He was certainly the alpha dog on the second two teams (although I would argue Pau deserved the second Finals MVP). No one's arguing that.

But let's play a hypothetical game here. Suppose we replace Kobe on those ridiculous Laker teams from the early 2000s. Put someone like Pierce or McGrady in his place. Clearly lesser players from the same era, but very good nontheless. Do they still win those titles? I think so. Now replace Shaq with a top 3-5 center from that era like Alonzo Mourning (in 2000) or Jermaine O'Neal. Do those teams still win those titles? Maybe one at most, but I don't see it happening.

My point is that there are guys who have won titles against more talented teams with a hell of a lot less talent around them. And just because you have five rings doesn't mean we shouldn't look at the context of those rings just like you would for guys like Horry and Fisher.

No one makes this peculiar distinction when we talk about how many rings Worthy, or Scott, or Cooper, or Kareem, or Magic, or Bird, or McHale, or Parrish, or KG, or Dumars, or Sheed, or Ginobli, or Parker, or J. Kidd, or Moses Malone, or Rodman, or... etc., etc., etc. have.

No, they only do it with Kobe. Naturally, you can expect that most Kobe proponents will give him full credit for the number of rings that he has, because there seems to be far too many twisted viewpoints that seek to undercut any and all contributions that the kid has made.

mightybosstone
12-07-2012, 02:03 PM
Replace Shaw with KG or Duncan and Lakers win the same titles.and maybe more as kg and Duncan didn't allow themselves to.get out of shape after 03. The same arguments can be made on.both sides.
I think you mean Shaq, but I think your argument is a piss poor one. For one, Duncan is the better all-time player than Shaq, IMO. And Duncan is an all-time top 25 guy, so he's not exactly that far behind. I'm talking about replacing a top 10 guy with guys who are in the top 40-70 discussion.

No one makes this peculiar distinction when we talk about how many rings Worthy, or Scott, or Cooper, or Kareem, or Magic, or Bird, or McHale, or Parrish, or KG, or Dumars, or Sheed, or Ginobli, or Parker, or J. Kidd, or Moses Malone, or Rodman, or... etc., etc., etc. have.

No, they only do it with Kobe. Naturally, you can expect that most Kobe proponents will give him full credit for the number of rings that he has, because there seems to be far too many twisted viewpoints that seek to undercut any and all contributions that the kid has made.
This is completely inaccurate and requires context. For one, guys like McHale, Parrish and Worthy are top 50 all-time guys. What keeps them from ever being higher? That they were never the No. 1 guy on championship teams. It's the same thing with guys like Pippen, Drexler, Robinson, etc. Of course that matters.

As far as Bird, he was the alpha dog on all three title teams. He wasn't necessarily always the best player (like in the third season), but he was the leader on those squads and it's debatable that he was the No. 1 on all three title teams.

The only guys you could potentially argue against are Kareem and Magic. But Kareem won a title without the Lakers and you could argue that either guy was just important on those Showtime Lakers squads. There wasn't really a No. 1, it was 1A and 1B. However, even if you wanted to be more critical of them, they won five titles in an eight year span against some of the most talented, stacked teams in NBA history. They beat the Dr. J/Moses Sixers, the Bird/Parrish/McHale Celtics and the Bad Boy Pistons.

It's not so much a knock on Kobe as it praise for guys like Kareem, Bird, and Magic that they happened to excel in an era of immensely talented, stacked teams. Kobe and Shaq won three titles in an era where they were the only really stacked team in the sport. The Spurs, Kings and Pistons were pretty good, but nothing compared to the stacked squads of the 80s and 90s.

Chavacano
12-07-2012, 03:49 PM
What's the one statistical measure of Kobe's career that sticks out the most to him? His answer was surprising ... http://t.co/POYlWsdZ…

-Dave McMenamin (http://twitter.com/mcten)


Not the five rings. Not the 81 in a game. Not the 30,000 points for his career.

"Just this being 17 years for me," Bryant said after shootaround Friday in Oklahoma City. "This is pretty crazy. Sometimes I don't know what the hell I'm doing here. And then to be competing still at a high level, that's fun to me."

Andrew32
12-07-2012, 04:16 PM
No, they only do it with Kobe.
So... when people rate Pippen give him full credit for 6 rings?

Kobe WAS Pippen for 3/5 Rings (with Pippen-type production & impact for 2/5 Rings) and that cannot be ignored.

Andrew32
12-07-2012, 04:21 PM
Replace Shaquille the great with KG or Duncan and Lakers win the same titles.and maybe more.
If you replaced Shaq with Duncan/KG on the 00-04 Lakers they definitely win less titles.

Neither could have replaced him in 00 or 02 and Shaq outplayed both of them in the 2004 playoffs.

You are probably at most getting 1 with maybe a very small chance at 2 and you could easily end up with 0.

Kobe was a Pippen level player in 00 & 02.
Shaq's dominance was the main reason 80-90% why those teams contended and won.

Money_23
12-07-2012, 04:31 PM
So... when people rate Pippen give him full credit for 6 rings?

Kobe WAS Pippen for 3/5 Rings (with Pippen-type production & impact for 2/5 Rings) and that cannot be ignored.

he's not saying give him full credit. But some people aren't giving him any credit at all and he should deserve at least some. And imo, Kobe contributed more than Pippen contributed for 2001 and 2002.

mamba24
12-07-2012, 04:42 PM
Thank you.

I guess since I don't hate lebron that makes me a miami fan. :rolleyes:

Haha.. I am with you... All the hate almost made me like Lebron more haha. Anyway, congrats to Kobe!!!! 30k!!!

mamba24
12-07-2012, 04:58 PM
so you think the 2006 Lakers squad would have made the playoffs without Kobe's scoring?

Please tell me this team would actually make the playoffs. I need a good laugh today.

18 Sasha Vujacic
23 Von Wafer
1 William "Smush" Parker
11 Devin Green
2 Aaron McKie
24 Jim Jackson
9 Laron Profit
4 Luke Walton
3 Devean George
7 Lamar Odom
43 Brian Cook
14 Stanislav Medvedenko
54 Kwame Brown
21 Ronny Turiaf
31 Chris Mihm
54 Andrew Bynum

mamba24
12-07-2012, 05:01 PM
It's sort of the same reasoning for Bird and Magic. If you have one in a certain slot, you can't have one too far behind. And sometimes I do put Wilt behind Hakeem and Duncan. It sort of depends on what numbers or context I'm paying most attention to that day. But winning has to be coupled with numbers and Wilt's numbers are hard to deny to a certain point. Every time I put him too far down the list, I look at his numbers and second guess myself. It's the same reason I have Lebron where I do. His numbers are worthy of top 3-5 consideration, but he either needs more longevity or more titles to crack the top 10.

As for Hakeem, he's the one guy I don't really use logic with, because he only has two titles and his numbers aren't as good as Duncan or Shaq's. BUT his postseason stats are arguably as good and he beat Shaq handily in the Finals, which gives me a reason to place him as high as I want to. I just have homer goggles on when I look at his career.

And you have hater goggles when looking at Kobe's career lol...

Money_23
12-07-2012, 05:05 PM
Please tell me this team would actually make the playoffs. I need a good laugh today.

18 Sasha Vujacic
23 Von Wafer
1 William "Smush" Parker
11 Devin Green
2 Aaron McKie
24 Jim Jackson
9 Laron Profit
4 Luke Walton
3 Devean George
7 Lamar Odom
43 Brian Cook
14 Stanislav Medvedenko
54 Kwame Brown
21 Ronny Turiaf
31 Chris Mihm
54 Andrew Bynum

are you saying this squad can make the playoffs? I don't understand....

beliges
12-07-2012, 05:10 PM
If you replaced Shaq with Duncan/KG on the 00-04 Lakers they definitely win less titles.

Neither could have replaced him in 00 or 02 and Shaq outplayed both of them in the 2004 playoffs.

You are probably at most getting 1 with maybe a very small chance at 2 and you could easily end up with 0.

Kobe was a Pippen level player in 00 & 02.
Shaq's dominance was the main reason 80-90% why those teams contended and won.

You do realize Shaq played on one of the most talented teams in the league before playing alongside Kobe right? And you do realize he won absolutely nothing during that time right? Also, you do realize that when Kobe and Shaq split, Kobe made it to 3 more finals and won 2 more titles right? While, Shaq went to one more and won only one more. Its no coincidence that Kobe was able to succeed much more without Shaq than Shaq was able to do so without Kobe.

mamba24
12-07-2012, 05:12 PM
are you saying this squad can make the playoffs? I don't understand....

no i am not. there was a post earlier that someone basically was saying kobe in 2006 was more detrimental to his team. basically the 06 team wouldve been good enough to make it without kobe's scoring... so i posted who was actually on his team haha. no chance that team makes it without kobe

Money_23
12-07-2012, 05:14 PM
no i am not. there was a post earlier that someone basically was saying kobe in 2006 was more detrimental to his team. basically the 06 team wouldve been good enough to make it without kobe's scoring... so i posted who was actually on his team haha. no chance that team makes it without kobe

ok cus that's what I thought too. :cheers:

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-07-2012, 05:16 PM
If you replaced Shaq with Duncan/KG on the 00-04 Lakers they definitely win less titles.

Neither could have replaced him in 00 or 02 and Shaq outplayed both of them in the 2004 playoffs.

You are probably at most getting 1 with maybe a very small chance at 2 and you could easily end up with 0.

Kobe was a Pippen level player in 00 & 02.
Shaq's dominance was the main reason 80-90% why those teams contended and won.

averaging 28-7-6 and 26-6-5 in 2 of the 3 championships with shaq and elite defense are pippen type year lol 2001 kobe and beyond>>> Prime pippen

fact jordan proably doesnt win 6 rings without pippen maybe not even 2-3

LAcowBOMBER
12-07-2012, 05:55 PM
In regards to the argument that this turned into, Kobe was the better player minus the finals when Shaq and him won their last ring together and an argument could be made that he was better the year before minus the finals, or they were at least equal. The scale tips even more in Kobe's favor when you consider all the garbage points Shaq got shooting free throws in games that were pretty much already decided.

mightybosstone
12-07-2012, 05:57 PM
Please tell me this team would actually make the playoffs. I need a good laugh today.

18 Sasha Vujacic
23 Von Wafer
1 William "Smush" Parker
11 Devin Green
2 Aaron McKie
24 Jim Jackson
9 Laron Profit
4 Luke Walton
3 Devean George
7 Lamar Odom
43 Brian Cook
14 Stanislav Medvedenko
54 Kwame Brown
21 Ronny Turiaf
31 Chris Mihm
54 Andrew Bynum
The following roster is the one which Hakeem won an NBA Finals with in 1994. Note that Cassell was a rookie and Horry was a sophomore...

G Scott Brooks
F Matt Bullard
G Sam Cassell
F-C Earl Cureton
G-F Mario Elie
F Carl Herrera
F Robert Horry
F Chris Jent
G Vernon Maxwell
F-C Richard Petruska
C Eric Riley
G-F Larry Robinson
G Kenny Smith
F Otis Thorpe

Andrew32
12-07-2012, 06:28 PM
averaging 26-6-5

92 Pippen : 20 / 9 / 7.0apg on 54%TS
02 Kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS

Kobe in 00 and 02 was inferior to Prime / Peak Pippen.

01 he played better but that is a completely separate year.

Those teams won primarily due to Shaq.
Not saying they win without Kobe but the amount of credit some Kobe fans try to give him for those runs is absurd.
He was a fantastic #2 / supporting star... nothing beyond that.

Also
09 Gasol >> 00 Kobe
10 Gasol >> 02 Kobe

jayjay33
12-07-2012, 07:54 PM
The following roster is the one which Hakeem won an NBA Finals with in 1994. Note that Cassell was a rookie and Horry was a sophomore...
G Scott Brooks
F Matt Bullard
G Sam Cassell
F-C Earl Cureton
G-F Mario Elie
F Carl Herrera
F Robert Horry
F Chris Jent
G Vernon Maxwell
F-C Richard Petruska
C Eric Riley
G-F Larry Robinson
G Kenny Smith
F Otis Thorpe

I watched rookie cassell ball out, that year. He would have been the third best player among those laker. from that time frame. thats how big a differnce in talent those two roster have. lol

cassell, horry, maxwell ,smith. thorpe, elie vs smush, walton, sasha, kwame and odom. it's not even close, as a matter of fact, it's not even a little close odom is the only one who was even and nba level player at the time. You should be ashamed. evry single on of those rockets i just named could defend or hit open shots or both. not one of those laker could do either.....smdh

JasonJohnHorn
12-07-2012, 08:00 PM
I wish they would have noted his over 12 500 careers FGs missed!
Wilt missed less shots and has more points!
Jordan missed less shots and has more points.
Kareem missed less shots and has like 8000 more points!
Malone missed more shots, but also has 6000 more points, and Kobe may eclipse Malone's missed FG this season, while still be three seasons away from his points total.


Less learned: Kobe shoots A LOT!!!

Lakers + Giants
12-07-2012, 08:02 PM
I wish they would have noted his over 12 500 careers FGs missed!
Wilt missed less shots and has more points!
Jordan missed less shots and has more points.
Kareem missed less shots and has like 8000 more points!
Malone missed more shots, but also has 6000 more points, and Kobe may eclipse Malone's missed FG this season, while still be three seasons away from his points total.


Less learned: Kobe shoots A LOT!!!

3 out of those 4 players played in the post, obviously they're going to have a higher FG%. The other guys is jordan, the best.

Money_23
12-07-2012, 08:06 PM
92 Pippen : 20 / 9 / 7.0apg on 54%TS
02 Kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS

Kobe in 00 and 02 was inferior to Prime / Peak Pippen.

01 he played better but that is a completely separate year.

Those teams won primarily due to Shaq.
Not saying they win without Kobe but the amount of credit some Kobe fans try to give him for those runs is absurd.
He was a fantastic #2 / supporting star... nothing beyond that.

Also
09 Gasol >> 00 Kobe
10 Gasol >> 02 Kobe

I'm just wondering how come you rounded Pippen's 19.5 ppg to 20 ppg yet you decided to round Kobe's 26.6 ppg to 26 ppg and 4.6 apg to 4.5?

jayjay33
12-07-2012, 08:10 PM
It should account for something. It certainly should. But people bring up Kobe's five rings like he was the reason those rings happened. He was certainly the alpha dog on the second two teams (although I would argue Pau deserved the second Finals MVP). No one's arguing that.

But let's play a hypothetical game here. Suppose we replace Kobe on those ridiculous Laker teams from the early 2000s. Put someone like Pierce or McGrady in his place. Clearly lesser players from the same era, but very good nontheless. Do they still win those titles? I think so. Now replace Shaq with a top 3-5 center from that era like Alonzo Mourning (in 2000) or Jermaine O'Neal. Do those teams still win those titles? Maybe one at most, but I don't see it happening.

My point is that there are guys who have won titles against more talented teams with a hell of a lot less talent around them. And just because you have five rings doesn't mean we shouldn't look at the context of those rings just like you would for guys like Horry and Fisher.


Kobe won 2 with gasol and prime zo is better he will give you the about same points rebounds, post play and 15 footer with 10x the toughness and defense. Shaq lost with all NBA first team penny hardaway. An again with several allstars inculding a top 5ish a the time sg in eddie jones.

oh.....and a pierce and Mac equivalent would be more along the lines of ewing or robinson. not jermanie o'neal.....he's more the wing equivlant of say a danny granger.

jayjay33
12-07-2012, 08:16 PM
I wish they would have noted his over 12 500 careers FGs missed!
Wilt missed less shots and has more points!
Jordan missed less shots and has more points.
Kareem missed less shots and has like 8000 more points!
Malone missed more shots, but also has 6000 more points, and Kobe may eclipse Malone's missed FG this season, while still be three seasons away from his points total.


Less learned: Kobe shoots his way to rings A LOT!!!


Fixed........

Andrew32
12-07-2012, 08:22 PM
Kobe won 2 with gasol and prime zo is better he will give you the about same points rebounds, post play and 15 footer with 10x the toughness and defense. Shaq lost with all NBA first team penny hardaway. An again with several allstars inculding a top 5ish a the time sg in eddie jones.

oh.....and a pierce and Mac equivalent would be more along the lines of ewing or robinson. not jermanie o'neal.....he's more the wing equivlant of say a danny granger.

lol yea... Lakers are gonna win from 00-02 with Prime Zo instead of Peak Shaq.
You are such a joke.

jayjay33
12-07-2012, 08:25 PM
I'm just wondering how come you rounded Pippen's 19.5 ppg to 20 ppg yet you decided to round Kobe's 26.6 ppg to 26 ppg and 4.6 apg to 4.5?

For the same reason he says when kobe won his last 2 ship lamar odom and his 9ppg was an allstar level player. But when shaq won kobe who was and actual allstar and all d first team was a only a "low level" allstar.

He changes his rules and criteria when it comes to kobe.......but in fairness to him, he cant properly make his case whiteout doing so. So I understand his dilemma.

jayjay33
12-07-2012, 08:39 PM
lol yea... Lakers are gonna win from 00-02 with Prime Zo instead of Peak Shaq.
You are such a joke.

Right, I'm sure you said the same thing before he won with gasol and went to 3 straight finals. He won with gasol and Zo is better. kobe as "proven" he can win with a big who is not even as good as Zo so the joke is on you. Hell having someone who actually played defense might have made it easier than with shaq.


Now whats really a joke is you and your how theory of an actual allstar/ all nba first team defender being a "low level' allstar ,but odom and his 9points a game being an allstar level player......your logic is a joke.

Andrew32
12-07-2012, 08:52 PM
He won with gasol and Zo is better.

Shaq won with Kobe and Gasol is better.

09 Gasol >> 00 Kobe
10 Gasol >> 02 Kobe

Mad? :)

Shaq also didn't have the rules changed to benefit his style of play.
Shaq also didn't have a 2nd All-Star caliber player coming off the bench either (Odom) and he went up against tougher competition.

jayjay33
12-07-2012, 11:20 PM
Shaq won with Kobe and Gasol is better.

09 Gasol >> 00 Kobe
10 Gasol >> 02 Kobe

Mad? :)

Shaq also didn't have the rules changed to benefit his style of play.
Shaq also didn't have a 2nd All-Star caliber player coming off the bench either (Odom) and he went up against tougher competition.

you also said kobe was ans low level allstar and odom was a allstar (not level). An thats the same logic that as you thinking gasol is better so doesn't that prove you dont know what your talking about.


Fact is kobe did far more with far less than shaq.......shaq penny and a sacked team in orlando, allstars packed teams in la and still couldnt even get one. shaq is the only superstar that needs somebody else to take over games for him cause he can't do it himself. Thats' why he failed with those other teams......kobe didn't needed sombody to hold his hand in order to win, shaq does and that's why he will never be better......u mad?

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-07-2012, 11:26 PM
Shaq won with Kobe and Gasol is better.

09 Gasol >> 00 Kobe
10 Gasol >> 02 Kobe

Mad? :)

Shaq also didn't have the rules changed to benefit his style of play.
Shaq also didn't have a 2nd All-Star caliber player coming off the bench either (Odom) and he went up against tougher competition.

:facepalm::rolleyes:

Money_23
12-08-2012, 12:54 AM
I'm just wondering how come you rounded Pippen's 19.5 ppg to 20 ppg yet you decided to round Kobe's 26.6 ppg to 26 ppg and 4.6 apg to 4.5?

why hasn't Andrew32 answered this yet? :shrug:

Chronz
12-08-2012, 01:18 AM
why hasn't Andrew32 answered this yet? :shrug:
Because he has an agenda. That much is clear, but tell me, does that change anything with regards to his argument? Are a few decimal points a difference maker? If so, how?

Money_23
12-08-2012, 01:25 AM
Because he has an agenda. That much is clear, but tell me, does that change anything with regards to his argument? Are a few decimal points a difference maker? If so, how?

never questioned his argument. But if you are presenting an argument with stats at least make it consistent.

Chronz
12-08-2012, 01:45 AM
never questioned his argument. But if you are presenting an argument with stats at least make it consistent.

Definitely but that doesnt mean hes wrong about everything.

Vinny642
12-08-2012, 02:59 AM
Congratulations to Kobe for hitting that mark