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View Full Version : If Lebron's only championship comes in the lockout season



nickdymez
12-05-2012, 01:23 PM
Does that tarnish his rep at all? Had an interesting conversation about this last night. I thought it would because we all know how I feel about the man. But i wanted to get non biased views...

justinnum1
12-05-2012, 01:25 PM
Troll harder

nickdymez
12-05-2012, 01:26 PM
I admitted to being biased. Wanted to see what others thought. Stop being sensitive bro

el hidalgo
12-05-2012, 01:27 PM
does kobe's rep get tarnished for being a 2nd option during his 1st three championships? no, neither should lebron's legacy. he had an amazing run and deserved the championship.

xxplayerxx23
12-05-2012, 01:29 PM
lol Come on man. We have had this thread before and the answer is No.

SwatTeam
12-05-2012, 01:30 PM
If Lebron took a dump on this thread in the forest with no one around, would it make a noise? I say it does.

nickdymez
12-05-2012, 01:30 PM
damn, everybody mad

justinnum1
12-05-2012, 01:32 PM
If Lebron took a dump on this thread in the forest with no one around, would it make a noise? I say it does.

:laugh2:

justinnum1
12-05-2012, 01:32 PM
damn, everybody mad

Just tired of seeing the same threads pooping up. Doesn't help that your a self proclaimed Lebron Hater. Get back to work.

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Sorry bro its not 2011 bashing lebron went out of style we have moved on to melo then Dwight now it's pau's turn. Get with it!

xxplayerxx23
12-05-2012, 01:34 PM
Everybody's mad because your all about Kobe and try to take Lebron down every time you talk about him its hilarious. (I am not a Lebron Fan I just respect him and am a little disapointed with his start this year )

xxplayerxx23
12-05-2012, 01:35 PM
Sorry bro its not 2011 bashing lebron went out of style we have moved on to melo then Dwight now it's pau's turn. Get with it!

The Melo bashing has been on here for a couple year now( Prob before I was even on psd)

Chronz
12-05-2012, 01:35 PM
If Bron only wins one ring period it will be a let down, particularly if he plays like he did vs Dallas again. But it has nothing to do with the lockout. Not sure if tarnish is the right word, hes a virtual lock to make the Top-10 and while that would be a disappointment considering his talent, its not exactly a bad end. Im more interested in seeing how his game stands the test of time than how many rings he wins.

ManRam
12-05-2012, 01:40 PM
Not winning another ring will be a let down and a huge disappointment, but it has nothing to do with the fact he won it in a lockout shortened season. Winning during a shortened season means nothing and deserves not even the slightest asterisk. It was an even playing field, and many felt it was far more grueling than the normal length season.

I'm not sure why I gave an obvious (and hilariously pathetic) attempt to troll a serious response. Oh well.

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 01:41 PM
If he only wins 1 ring it would be a dissapointment... He was considered to be the next MJ when he was coming into the league... If he only comes out with 1 ring after teaming up with Wade and Bosh I would say that's a severe tarnish on his legacy.

He will still be one of the greatest ever but just won't be close to MJ (in the eyes of others... He already will never be beside MJ in my books already too many let downs in his career and losses in the finals for me to take that seriously).

justinnum1
12-05-2012, 01:45 PM
Is melo a hall of famer if he never wins a ring?

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 01:46 PM
The Melo bashing has been on here for a couple year now( Prob before I was even on psd)

True they hate on him so hard for no reason. I will admit I hated on him rookie season but I was 13 lol. I think he is sooo nice and have nothing but respect for his game especially since mike Woodson has been working on making him a better defensive player. Melo is playing elite and he still isn't getting the respect he deserves. If he puts up godly numbers and loses its his fault and if he plays right and gets win he doesn't get credit. It's like he's the opposite of Kobe lol.

Mitch Kramer
12-05-2012, 01:48 PM
If he only wins 1 ring it would be a dissapointment... He was considered to be the next MJ when he was coming into the league... If he only comes out with 1 ring after teaming up with Wade and Bosh I would say that's a severe tarnish on his legacy.

He will still be one of the greatest ever but just won't be close to MJ (in the eyes of others... He already will never be beside MJ in my books already too many let downs in his career and losses in the finals for me to take that seriously).

great post, exactly how I feel :clap:

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Is melo a hall of famer if he never wins a ring?

That's a better one! But I think so just not a first ballot. I feel if your a top player of your era you deserve to be in the hall and I'm pretty sure when u go back this decade in the future melo will definitely come to mind

ManRam
12-05-2012, 01:50 PM
He will still be one of the greatest ever but just won't be close to MJ (in the eyes of others... He already will never be beside MJ in my books already too many let downs in his career and losses in the finals for me to take that seriously).

That's a fair point, but many will counter with saying that Jordan never won a ring with as little talent as LeBron was trying to those years (besides maybe 2010-2011). Those letdowns only were able to happen because of how much he got his teams to overachieve.

xxplayerxx23
12-05-2012, 01:51 PM
True they hate on him so hard for no reason. I will admit I hated on him rookie season but I was 13 lol. I think he is sooo nice and have nothing but respect for his game especially since mike Woodson has been working on making him a better defensive player. Melo is playing elite and he still isn't getting the respect he deserves. If he puts up godly numbers and loses its his fault and if he plays right and gets win he doesn't get credit. It's like he's the opposite of Kobe lol.


Is melo a hall of famer if he never wins a ring?

He def has his flaws but he is a very solid player. This year he has played solid defense as well, but until he gets the ring (if) he won't get respect.

Justin: I think he will be a HOF without a ring if he keeps his pace.

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 01:53 PM
great post, exactly how I feel :clap:

So why isn't Jordan on Russell's level then? If a players worth is only measured in finals then nobody is touching Bill. Like chuck said he can do everything that Jordan can just he's bigger and faster. I think chuck can talk more on the subject since he played against him but if u think your opinion is more qualified I'm open to hear why

Quinnsanity
12-05-2012, 01:56 PM
It doesn't really mean anything, but as a Heat hater I'll be sure to bring it up.

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 01:57 PM
So why isn't Jordan on Russell's level then? If a players worth is only measured in finals then nobody is touching Bill. Like chuck said he can do everything that Jordan can just he's bigger and faster. I think chuck can talk more on the subject since he played against him but if u think your opinion is more qualified I'm open to hear why

Russell lost in the finals as well and not to mention only needed one series to win to even make the finals while in the 80's and up you needed to win 3 series to just make the finals.

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 01:59 PM
As far as the topic, put it this way had Duncan only won a title in 1999 and never won another year how do you think it would have been seen? It is the same way it will be seen with Lebron, only difference is that he would have had to take advantage of two of the top 5 players in the league being out for the playoffs in his own conference including the league mvp.

With that said, I think he still gets another 2-3 titles.

_KB24_
12-05-2012, 02:05 PM
Agree with most here saying him winning just one in general would be a let down, not so much of it being focused on the lock-out season.

Big Zo
12-05-2012, 02:08 PM
With the way the schedule was, they should have given him two rings, and two MVP's.

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 02:09 PM
That's a fair point, but many will counter with saying that Jordan never won a ring with as little talent as LeBron was trying to those years (besides maybe 2010-2011). Those letdowns only were able to happen because of how much he got his teams to overachieve.

It's one thing had he lost to the Lakers those years it is another to lose to the teams he lost to. Especially considering the injuries to top notch stars. It is not like he lost to Boston in 2009 (with KG around) who was coming off a title or the Lakers in 2009 or 2010.

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 02:13 PM
He def has his flaws but he is a very solid player. This year he has played solid defense as well, but until he gets the ring (if) he won't get respect.

Justin: I think he will be a HOF without a ring if he keeps his pace.

But I think that's unfair. I don't think greatness should be measured in rings. Too many greats have went without a ring. Basketball is the sport where I feel the best team wins 9/10 with the way the playoffs are setup. In football it's any given Sunday and baseball is more about pitching, lineups and coaching. Ad I don't know much about hockey to speak on that matter. But pretty much what I'm saying is no matter what Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Reggie miller or Charles Barkley did Jordan's bulls would still be better because he had the better team. That shouldn't knock the other greats or put Jordan up on an unreachable pedestal. That's why I wouldn't knock melo for not winning a ring because lebron has the better team hands down. Jordan never won without another HOF player next to him and a HOF coach on the sideline so those championships do little to validate his greatness but Ill let you know what does 5 MVPs, 14 all star appearances with 3 allstar MVPs, a dpoy award, 10x scoring champ, 3x steals champ, 10x 1st nba team and 9x defensive team. This is why we have individual accolades so we have a way of measuring individuals. A trophy means much more...it's a reflection of the franchise. A reflection of how well the gm can assemble a staff and team that's on the same page, how well scouts can scout, how good your coach is, how solid your bench is, if your crowd is louder then theirs and lets be honest a little luck. Because most of the time when u get to the playoffs your starting five and their starting five are pretty evenly matched its all the other things that determine the series. So in conclusion I don't feel as if rings=individual greatness

mngopher35
12-05-2012, 02:14 PM
Having it during the lockout season isn't really that big of a deal (for most). If he doesn't win anymore rings the rest of his career it would be a let down though.

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 02:17 PM
Jordan never won without another HOF player next to him and a HOF coach on the sideline so those championships do little to validate his greatness but Ill let you know what does 5 MVPs, 14 all star appearances with 3 allstar MVPs, a dpoy award, 10x scoring champ, 3x steals champ, 10x 1st nba team and 9x defensive team.

Scottie Pippen was not a hall of famer when the Bulls won from 1991-1993.
Phil Jackson had no coaching experience in the NBA so let's not act like he was some great coach the Bulls found off the spot. Neither was Pippen a great player from the beginning. So in that sense Jordan never was given those guys.
Phil was not a great coach before he came to the Bulls. He had not even had a job in the NBA. He was a CBA coach and Krause took a chance on him. It would be one thing if he was proven coach in the league like by the time he went to the Lakers. The same for Riley he wasn't proven in the NBA as a coach with the Lakers, you can use that logic when he went to the Knicks and Heat though. The same for Poppovich, he wasn't some Hall of fame coach from the get go. If Spo wins a few titles he will make the hall of fame, is it going to be seen as some hindsight and said Wade/Lebron had a hall of fame coach in Spo when he was no where near that at the time just like Phil wasn't when the Bulls started winning?

You can really only use that logic for Phil or Riley when they went elsewhere and won. Like Miami in 2006 with Riley or the Lakers 2000-2002, 2009, 2010.

YEDN90
12-05-2012, 02:18 PM
Agree with the vast majority of the posters in here.

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 02:20 PM
Having it during the lockout season isn't really that big of a deal (for most). If he doesn't win anymore rings the rest of his career it would be a let down though.

I agree it will be a letdown but I don't think it will make lebron a worse player. I feel it would be a letdown because he is such a great player they put that burden on him. Even after he won his first won the first thing that came out of people's mouths (even his own) is its about time or how many? Whereas ALOT of greats never won one. And mj was the exact age when he won his first.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 02:20 PM
Is melo a hall of famer if he never wins a ring?
How many years does he play at his current level? Hes already got Olympic and collegiate awards so he doesnt really need all that much.

Jarvo
12-05-2012, 02:20 PM
No

Dade County
12-05-2012, 02:22 PM
Hopefully the Miami HEAT organization can win 5 - 7 championships in the next 11yrs so we don't have to here that kind of criticism.

Hoping for the best.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 02:26 PM
Scottie Pippen was not a hall of famer when the Bulls won from 1991-1993.
Phil Jackson had no coaching experience in the NBA so let's not act like he was some great coach the Bulls found off the spot. Neither was Pippen a great player from the beginning. So in that sense Jordan never was given those guys.
Phil was not a great coach before he came to the Bulls. He had not even had a job in the NBA. He was a CBA coach and Krause took a chance on him. It would be one thing if he was proven coach in the league like by the time he went to the Lakers. The same for Riley he wasn't proven in the NBA as a coach with the Lakers, you can use that logic when he went to the Knicks and Heat though. The same for Poppovich, he wasn't some Hall of fame coach from the get go. If Spo wins a few titles he will make the hall of fame, is it going to be seen as some hindsight and said Wade/Lebron had a hall of fame coach in Spo when he was no where near that at the time just like Phil wasn't when the Bulls started winning?

You can really only use that logic for Phil or Riley when they went elsewhere and won. Like Miami in 2006 with Riley or the Lakers 2000-2002, 2009, 2010.

Tex Winter was the mastermind behind his pupil Phil and he was HIGHLY sought after by the Bulls. And Pippen credits Phil for being able to turn MJ into a team player. Soo what are you talking about?

Can you explain the Poppovich thing? How do you know he wasn't a HOF coach from the getgo? Seemed to me like he was.

mngopher35
12-05-2012, 02:26 PM
It's one thing had he lost to the Lakers those years it is another to lose to the teams he lost to. Especially considering the injuries to top notch stars. It is not like he lost to Boston in 2009 (with KG around) who was coming off a title or the Lakers in 2009 or 2010.

His help was so poor though, 2009 he played fantastic vs orlando and they still lost. His teammates got destroyed that series. Their frontcourt was owned by dwight and rashard and mo williams, the second best player on the team, barely outplayed rafer alston (he didn't shoot above 33% until last two games). 2010 he didn't play great vs the celtics, but their defense was pretty amazing. Look what they did to kobe in the finals that year and they had other to focus on too that series. He carried tose cavs teams about as far or further than he should have most years with the cavs.

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 02:30 PM
Scottie Pippen was not a hall of famer when the Bulls won from 1991-1993.
Phil Jackson had no coaching experience in the NBA so let's not act like he was some great coach the Bulls found off the spot. Neither was Pippen a great player from the beginning. So in that sense Jordan never was given those guys.
Phil was not a great coach before he came to the Bulls. He had not even had a job in the NBA. He was a CBA coach and Krause took a chance on him. It would be one thing if he was proven coach in the league like by the time he went to the Lakers. The same for Riley he wasn't proven in the NBA as a coach with the Lakers, you can use that logic when he went to the Knicks and Heat though. The same for Poppovich, he wasn't some Hall of fame coach from the get go. If Spo wins a few titles he will make the hall of fame, is it going to be seen as some hindsight and said Wade/Lebron had a hall of fame coach in Spo when he was no where near that at the time just like Phil wasn't when the Bulls started winning?

You can really only use that logic for Phil or Riley when they went elsewhere and won. Like Miami in 2006 with Riley or the Lakers 2000-2002, 2009, 2010.

A great coach is a great coach. That's like saying kg didn't have a great coach because doc didn't do much before the big 3, or Brady doesn't have a great coach in belicek bc he didn't do much before him. Phil is a major reason Jordan won. His coaching worked on getting other players involved as well as getting Jordan in prime position to score. I'm sorry but I don't respect your basketball knowledge if you seriously believe Phil and his triangle had nothing to do with Jordan and his success. And you proved my point about Scottie. It took a village to make him great not just jordan. It took scouts, proper coaching, and Jordan's push. But let's be honest he has to have talent to go top 5 out of central Arkansas.

mngopher35
12-05-2012, 02:31 PM
I agree it will be a letdown but I don't think it will make lebron a worse player. I feel it would be a letdown because he is such a great player they put that burden on him. Even after he won his first won the first thing that came out of people's mouths (even his own) is its about time or how many? Whereas ALOT of greats never won one. And mj was the exact age when he won his first.

I see what your saying and mostly agree. It is rare for someone to come into the nba with crazy hype and live up to it (for the most part). I'm saying that it appears he has the supporting cast to compete for a few more titles so not coming away with another would be a little disappointing. That alone shouldn't necessarily hurt his legacy, it all depends on how he plays. My guess is he will get another ring though so it shouldn't be a problem either way.

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 02:36 PM
Tex Winter was the mastermind behind his pupil Phil and he was HIGHLY sought after by the Bulls. And Pippen credits Phil for being able to turn MJ into a team player. Soo what are you talking about?

Can you explain the Poppovich thing? How do you know he wasn't a HOF coach from the getgo? Seemed to me like he was.

Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.


----------------------------------------------------------

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html


Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

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Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.




http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."


And because Poppovich wasn't a hall of fame coach when the Spurs won in 1999. Just like Phil wasn't in 1991, 1992 nor 1993. By 1996 he was though.

NYY 26 to 7
12-05-2012, 02:36 PM
does kobe's rep get tarnished for being a 2nd option during his 1st three championships? no, neither should lebron's legacy. he had an amazing run and deserved the championship.

Yes, yes it does. Kobe is knocked all the time because he was a distant 2nd option to Shaq for certainly the first 2. So yea he does take a hit for not being the one to lead them through. Those who put him next to MJ simply because of ring count is a joke. Side by side their regular season and especially post season success doesn't stack up.

To the thread. I just agree with everyone who said lockout has nothing to do with it and if he didn't win another it would be a big disappointment. He will though, as much as some of us don't want him to he will. Too damn good.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 02:37 PM
His help was so poor though, 2009 he played fantastic vs orlando and they still lost. His teammates got destroyed that series. Their frontcourt was owned by dwight and rashard and mo williams, the second best player on the team, barely outplayed rafer alston (he didn't shoot above 33% until last two games). 2010 he didn't play great vs the celtics, but their defense was pretty amazing. Look what they did to kobe in the finals that year and they had other to focus on too that series. He carried tose cavs teams about as far or further than he should have most years with the cavs.

Dont bother, he will bombard you with outdated copy and pasted arguments, spewing out the same tired nonsense that nobody puts any stock into but him. Inconsistent arguments and selective analysis are his thing when it comes to this subject. Its why I was more intrigued by the comments he made regarding Phil and Pop.

He likes to manipulate facts to portray a different story than reality. Like when he says Scottie Pippen wasn't an All-Star with MJ the year he won his first title. Technically its true, but its also true that Pippen put up All-Star caliber numbers and had made the team the year prior as an inferior player putting up inferior numbers. So whats more relevant, that MJ didn't play with an All-Star by name, or that he played with a superior player than the All-Star he had the year prior?

Somehow not making the All-Star team is some indictment on Pippen but he makes no mention of his All-D selection to go with superior (to All-Star level) production.


See how he says Pippen was not yet a HOF player, no ****, that was his breakout year. Its a major flaw in his analysis, its as if he thinks its better to have the rep of an All-Star/HOF than actually be an All-Star/HOF caliber player. Its why he still brings up Shaq/Ben Wallace being proven players with Cleveland as opposed to CAPABLE players.

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 02:40 PM
I see what your saying and mostly agree. It is rare for someone to come into the nba with crazy hype and live up to it (for the most part). I'm saying that it appears he has the supporting cast to compete for a few more titles so not coming away with another would be a little disappointing. That alone shouldn't necessarily hurt his legacy, it all depends on how he plays. My guess is he will get another ring though so it shouldn't be a problem either way.

No I agree with u as well to a certain extent. I feel it would be a disappointment because lebron should win another one with this team but I feel it would be more of a team disappointment then to say lebron is a horrible because he only won one lol. But as a lebron fan I would be sad face if he only won that one he has lol.

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 02:40 PM
His help was so poor though, 2009 he played fantastic vs orlando and they still lost. His teammates got destroyed that series. Their frontcourt was owned by dwight and rashard and mo williams, the second best player on the team, barely outplayed rafer alston (he didn't shoot above 33% until last two games). 2010 he didn't play great vs the celtics, but their defense was pretty amazing. Look what they did to kobe in the finals that year and they had other to focus on too that series. He carried tose cavs teams about as far or further than he should have most years with the cavs.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z (PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


http://a.espncdn.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 02:40 PM
Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.
Why would I care what writers say when Pippen is saying it HIMSELF? :facepalm:

According to Pippen, the culture MJ created was unbearable and that PJ was the guy who changed MJ. And that change allowed him to become a better teammate from which a harmonious system was finally sustained. So again, what the **** are you talking about?



And because Poppovich wasn't a hall of fame coach when the Spurs won in 1999. Just like Phil wasn't in 1991, 1992 nor 1993. By 1996 he was though.
Can you explain why tho? I mean I understand its your opinion but I dont buy it. Was there a coaching flaw in his technique you can point to? Or are you simply saying people didn't know how good he was yet?

He was a HOF coach from day 1 in the NBA, we just didn't know it yet because he had not yet stood the test of time. It doesnt mean he wasn't great from day 1. Phil was more green but he was the pupil learning from the best leading up to his coaching debut. So yes the Bulls had HOF coaching.




Heres a question for you. Was Tex Winter not a HOF coach until he finally made the HOF a few years back? If you say yes then you have proven your ignorance.

xxplayerxx23
12-05-2012, 02:42 PM
But I think that's unfair. I don't think greatness should be measured in rings. Too many greats have went without a ring. Basketball is the sport where I feel the best team wins 9/10 with the way the playoffs are setup. In football it's any given Sunday and baseball is more about pitching, lineups and coaching. Ad I don't know much about hockey to speak on that matter. But pretty much what I'm saying is no matter what Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Reggie miller or Charles Barkley did Jordan's bulls would still be better because he had the better team. That shouldn't knock the other greats or put Jordan up on an unreachable pedestal. That's why I wouldn't knock melo for not winning a ring because lebron has the better team hands down. Jordan never won without another HOF player next to him and a HOF coach on the sideline so those championships do little to validate his greatness but Ill let you know what does 5 MVPs, 14 all star appearances with 3 allstar MVPs, a dpoy award, 10x scoring champ, 3x steals champ, 10x 1st nba team and 9x defensive team. This is why we have individual accolades so we have a way of measuring individuals. A trophy means much more...it's a reflection of the franchise. A reflection of how well the gm can assemble a staff and team that's on the same page, how well scouts can scout, how good your coach is, how solid your bench is, if your crowd is louder then theirs and lets be honest a little luck. Because most of the time when u get to the playoffs your starting five and their starting five are pretty evenly matched its all the other things that determine the series. So in conclusion I don't feel as if rings=individual greatness

I agree with you, that is just the way most people think. A guy like Barkley not getting a ring hurts him but didn't stop him from getting in the hall and still thought of as a great player/

Chronz
12-05-2012, 02:44 PM
LMFAO right on cue.

Hes posts those regardless of the argument at hand and pretends like its actual analysis. Let us never wonder why troll threads are created in his honor.

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 02:47 PM
Why would I care what writers say when Pippen is saying it HIMSELF? :facepalm:

According to Pippen, the culture MJ created was unbearable and that PJ was the guy who changed MJ. And that change allowed him to become a better teammate from which a harmonious system was finally sustained. So again, what the **** are you talking about?


No, the Bulls got better yearly and was improving before Phil came and like I said Phil was not a hall of fame coach in 1991 nor 1992. Had Phil not coached any more he would not have been in the hall of fame, that is my point.



Can you explain why tho? I mean I understand its your opinion but I dont buy it. Was there a coaching flaw in his technique you can point to? Or are you simply saying people didn't know how good he was yet?

He was a HOF coach from day 1 in the NBA, we just didn't know it yet because he had not yet stood the test of time. It doesnt mean he wasn't great from day 1. Phil was more green but he had a great pupil leading up to his coaching debut. So yes the Bulls had HOF coaching.



So had he coached the Spurs and retired at the end of 1999 he would have been in the hall of fame?



Heres a question for you. Was Tex Winter not a HOF coach until he finally made the HOF a few years back? If you say yes then you have proven your ignorance.

He wasn't a hall of fame coach thru 1993 which is my point.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-05-2012, 02:48 PM
It'd be disappointing that he didn't win one. But the title he won in the lockout season isn't tarnished by any means.

3RDASYSTEM
12-05-2012, 02:48 PM
He was top 10 after dropping 21-6-6 rookieyr and and most inception mediahype ever hoping it would backfire and he delivered,goin on 10yrs strong and counting

his game/impact is what makes him top 10, not 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 11rings, go ask players from HAKEEM to RUSSELL does it matter, if so RUSS is undisputed GOAT,11 but we all know thats not true,well maybe to most beantown folk

and to that person who said is KOBE tainted because he was a sidekick, of course not, just like PIPPEN isnt, so we keep sidekicks in they place...as a sidekick

SHAQ was a modern day WILT,PAU was no1 option in MEMPH,when healthy BYNUM/ODOM numbers combined were no.1 option and now he has HOWARD/NASH who were no1 option/facilitator prior to joining him...so like i said do they lose they no1 status to a 'sidekick' or do they just try to fit in and be good mates and let the sidekick stay comfy? did PIPP become a sidekick when he went to POR or was he still same and brought his vet leadership to table,because clearly SHEED was best player on that squad..or did SHEED become sidekick to a sidekick when PIPP came there? you guys are comical when it comes to judging a sidekick vs franchise type or just players actual game in general

did BRON become a sidekick because he went to go team up with WADE in WADES crib? if you think he has become a sidekick go cover another sport, you are who you are, until hype gets involved

Chronz
12-05-2012, 02:49 PM
I agree with you, that is just the way most people think. A guy like Barkley not getting a ring hurts him but didn't stop him from getting in the hall and still thought of as a great player/

Ive always been curious what the tipping point is for players with/without rings.

How many rings does it take for an inferior player to be thought of in greater light than a superior player who never won.


I wish I could remember who said it but some coach said "Ive never been quick to label an individual a loser because they have been losing, this is because Ive seen many individual losers winning."

not an exact quote but its something along those lines.

Thats why I focus more on how the player performs given his support.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 02:52 PM
No, the Bulls got better yearly and was improving before Phil came and like I said Phil was not a hall of fame coach in 1991 nor 1992. Had Phil not coached any more he would not have been in the hall of fame, that is my point.
What do you mean no? Are you calling Pippen a liar? Is there any reason why I should trust you over him?




So had he coached the Spurs and retired at the end of 1999 he would have been in the hall of fame?
He wasn't a hall of fame coach thru 1993 which is my point.

LMFAO

There you have it people, you can pull off a great coaching job but it wont matter until a decade later, only then can you get credit for what you did in the past.

Let me put it this way, had he retired or kept on coaching, NOTHING changes about his SUPERB coaching in the years leading up to it. NOTHING.


Notice how you dodged my question. Was Tex Winter a HOF coach or was he only a HOF coach once he finally made the HOF?

DubbyDubbs
12-05-2012, 02:55 PM
If Lebron took a dump on this thread in the forest with no one around, would it make a noise? I say it does.

this... great analogy.

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 02:58 PM
What do you mean no? Are you calling Pippen a liar? Is there any reason why I should trust you over him?


Pippen also said Lebron was better than MJ so what he says doesn't hold as much weight with most people now a days.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Pippen also said Lebron was better than MJ so what he says doesn't hold as much weight with most people now a days.

With how Pippen described Jordan, do you think he may have some resentment towards MJ?

THAT is why we shouldn't take ex-players opinions seriously. They all have bias in them.

LOOTERX9
12-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Put an asterisk on the title if he only wins 1.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2012, 03:01 PM
It wouldn't tarnish anything, however, I think many would be disappointed if he only got the one chip, versus winning a couple more as the most dominant player in the league, which is now sort of expected.

The lockout crap needs to stop. Every team played under the exact same conditions. There is no * on those seasons.

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 03:01 PM
With how Pippen described Jordan, do you think he may have some resentment towards MJ?

THAT is why we shouldn't take ex-players opinions seriously. They all have bias in them.
Agreed!

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 03:05 PM
Ive always been curious what the tipping point is for players with/without rings.

How many rings does it take for an inferior player to be thought of in greater light than a superior player who never won.


I wish I could remember who said it but some coach said "Ive never been quick to label an individual a loser because they have been losing, this is because Ive seen many individual losers winning."

not an exact quote but its something along those lines.

Thats why I focus more on how the player performs given his support.

Man this post is gold! I agree 100%. I just don't understand how u measure a player in rings. Rings=ultimate team goal and everyone says there's no I in team so I guess that goes away when your talking about hoisting up a championship trophy

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 03:06 PM
What do you mean no? Are you calling Pippen a liar? Is there any reason why I should trust you over him?


LMFAO

There you have it people, you can pull off a great coaching job but it wont matter until a decade later, only then can you get credit for what you did in the past.

Let me put it this way, had he retired or kept on coaching, NOTHING changes about his SUPERB coaching in the years leading up to it. NOTHING.


Notice how you dodged my question. Was Tex Winter a HOF coach or was he only a HOF coach once he finally made the HOF?

Yes I have articles that show otherwise and the feeling regarding him at the time. It isn't a hindsight option on this.

And so you believe Poppovich is a hall of fame coach in 1999? I guess you feel Spo is one now as well as he just won with Miami or that Doc Rivers was one in 2008 when he won with Boston or Rudy T in 1994 when he won with Houston.

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 03:07 PM
It wouldn't tarnish anything, however, I think many would be disappointed if he only got the one chip, versus winning a couple more as the most dominant player in the league, which is now sort of expected.

The lockout crap needs to stop. Every team played under the exact same conditions. There is no * on those seasons.

X2 it wasn't like they got an extra week off during the season even played back to back to back nights once they had the same obstacles every other team faced

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:07 PM
Pippen also said Lebron was better than MJ so what he says doesn't hold as much weight with most people now a days.
Relevance to current topic?

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:11 PM
With how Pippen described Jordan, do you think he may have some resentment towards MJ?
I definitely feel he hates that he doesn't get the respect he deserves because people still have this misconception that he was entirely a product of MJ. But it didn't stop him from wanting him back on the team. More importantly what does that have to do with the topic? What makes a sportswriter/message board poster more credible than the guy who was around to witness what MJ was like before and after.

I mean if Pippen hated MJ why would he say he learned from him and that practicing against him helped his game? Seems to me hes perfectly capable of giving credit when its deserved. Or should we not take that seriously either?



THAT is why we shouldn't take ex-players opinions seriously. They all have bias in them.

Everyone has bias, does that mean no one can be taken seriously?

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 03:13 PM
Relevance to current topic?
You said are you calling Pippen a liar...

I'm showing well how do I say this....

HE LIES!!!

I don't think there was one media member or fan in the world that didn't think Pippen was full of **** when he made those comments so he lies...

Is that relevant?

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 03:15 PM
I definitely feel he hates that he doesn't get the respect he deserves because people still have this misconception that he was entirely a product of MJ. But it didn't stop him from wanting him back on the team. More importantly what does that have to do with the topic? What makes a sportswriter/message board poster more credible than the guy who was around to witness what MJ was like before and after.

I mean if Pippen hated MJ why would he say he learned from him and that practicing against him helped his game? Seems to me hes perfectly capable of giving credit when its deserved. Or should we not take that seriously either?


Everyone has bias, does that mean no one can be taken seriously?

Again though the logic you are using is the logic Kobe fans would use. Why should I take the opinion of yours over Sportswriters, commentators, etc?

Is that not the same thing you are doing here by saying what Pippen is saying is to be more valued than what anyone else here says?

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:16 PM
Yes I have articles that show otherwise and the feeling regarding him at the time. It isn't a hindsight option on this.
Well then why are you wasting time giving me articles that have nothing to do with the topic? We are talking about what Pippen said about MJ and the insufferable teammate he was before Phil Jackson showed up. Showme articles that say PJ wasn't somewhat responsible for grooming MJ into a leader. Because from what I remember he was a dick up until Collins left.


And so you believe Poppovich is a hall of fame coach in 1999?
Im saying him being recognized as a HOF coach doesn't change the job he did in year 1. Unless you can point to something more significant than he had yet to have a great resume.


I guess you feel Spo is one now as well as he just won with Miami or that Doc Rivers was one in 2008 when he won with Boston or Rudy T in 1994 when he won with Houston.
I thought Doc was a HOF coach in the making all the way back from Orlando. His players raved about him and he got alot out of some very dysfunctional teams before. Now that he has a title with Boston my high opinion of him is validated but thats my own validation. It changes nothing of what he did in the past. Pop was a great coach from day 1. Dont know about Spo, I have my ups and downs with him.

And in Chicago Phil had Tex with him so I dont see your point.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2012, 03:20 PM
I definitely feel he hates that he doesn't get the respect he deserves because people still have this misconception that he was entirely a product of MJ. But it didn't stop him from wanting him back on the team. More importantly what does that have to do with the topic? What makes a sportswriter/message board poster more credible than the guy who was around to witness what MJ was like before and after.

I mean if Pippen hated MJ why would he say he learned from him and that practicing against him helped his game? Seems to me hes perfectly capable of giving credit when its deserved. Or should we not take that seriously either?

If you are referring to the specific poster you are arguing with, I absolutely take Pippen's opinion more seriously. The poster has made it his agenda to pick apart any player that gets close to his airness.


Everyone has bias, does that mean no one can be taken seriously?

not exactly. Consistency is the only thing that builds a reputation of knowledge to be taken seriously. Some sportswriters suck, and fade away. Some ex-athletes prove to be inept talent evaluators, and fade away. So when an ex-player comes out and states, "player X is better", unless he has developed a track record of what I perceive as a good understanding of the game, ie, he was right on his calls, why should I pay attention to him over a sportswriter who has shown the understanding and knowledge?

I think many ex-players have even more bias then fans/media. They were on the floor, getting beat/beating that player(s), listening to them talk **** to them, feeling the pain of losing. That forms not only a ton of respect, but huge bias.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:21 PM
Again though the logic you are using is the logic Kobe fans would use. Why should I take the opinion of yours over Sportswriters, commentators, etc?Is that not the same thing you are doing here by saying what Pippen is saying is to be more valued than what anyone else here says?
Nope not even close, you see this is an internal matter. Pippen isnt making any predictions or stating who he thinks is the games best player here. Hes stating how he FELT during MJ's reign of terror before Phil showed up.

Whereas when debating who we feel is the best player over different era's of the NBA, we can ALL WITNESS for ourselves and we have ample statistical tools at our disposal to help with our thought process.


In this case we have 1 guy who was around during MJ's best and worst days and telling us what it was like. There is no footage for us to break down, there are no stats to assess. This is strictly opinion vs opinion, so why should I take your opinion more seriously on this matter when your tools for assessing the situations are laughably short in comparison?

When it comes to assessing how good of a teammate a certain player was, we have bits and pieces of information, Pippen has the entire puzzle to work with. You lose everytime in that situation.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:22 PM
You said are you calling Pippen a liar...

I'm showing well how do I say this....

HE LIES!!!

I don't think there was one media member or fan in the world that didn't think Pippen was full of **** when he made those comments so he lies...

Is that relevant?
But he didnt lie, he gave his projection on Brons career.

In this case, hes telling us how it FELT to be MJ's teammates, so in THIS TOPIC, why shouldnt I believe him, especially when the counterargument is so pathetic?

Show me relevant facts plz. LOL at you thinking PIP was the only who had a problem with young MJ's idea of team building.

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 03:29 PM
But he didnt lie, he gave his projection on Brons career.

In this case, hes telling us how it FELT to be MJ's teammates, so in THIS TOPIC, why shouldnt I believe him, especially when the counterargument is so pathetic?

Show me relevant facts plz. LOL at you thinking PIP was the only who had a problem with young MJ's idea of team building.
The better question would be why should I believe him when he has already shown he has a bias opinion towards MJ.

If I heard this from Phil Jacksons mouth it would be different but Pippen has already shown his true colors when he went public with his quote saying Lebron is better than MJ (which is utterly ridiculous to everyone who has watched both era's of basketball). There is nothing to prove what he is saying is the truth or not but I see no reason to trust what he says in this case. Having a 2nd team source or quote would convince me but Pippen alone doesn't hold much weight with me after his debacle I mentioned above to try and tarnish MJ when he could.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:29 PM
not exactly.
Which is why your post was off base.


Consistency is the only thing that builds a reputation of knowledge to be taken seriously. Some sportswriters suck, and fade away. Some ex-athletes prove to be inept talent evaluators, and fade away. So when an ex-player comes out and states, "player X is better", unless he has developed a track record of what I perceive as a good understanding of the game, ie, he was right on his calls, why should I pay attention to him over a sportswriter who has shown the understanding and knowledge?
But this isnt a topic about player vs player, its about how MJ was as a teammate. Give me one good reason why I would put more stock into the arguments presented, over Pippens own recollection of the events? Events he was around for in its entirety. Show me a single poster or sportswriter with that credibility.


I think many ex-players have even more bias then fans/media. They were on the floor, getting beat/beating that player(s), listening to them talk **** to them, feeling the pain of losing. That forms not only a ton of respect, but huge bias.
I dont see the difference and that point is completely irrelevant in this topic. If Pippen says Bron is better than MJ, I wont believe him because I have seen the same games he has and we all have the same tools at our disposal. When it comes to how he felt being MJ's teammate, he has the ultimate sample size at his disposal.


So I get the gist of what your trying to say but its woefully out of place in this context.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:32 PM
The better question would be why should I believe him when he has already shown he has a bias opinion towards MJ.
LOL because its a topic that you have very little evidence to argue against. If he were to say MJ likes drinking tomato juice, will you call his bias into play? Hes not talking about MJ the player, hes talking about MJ the teammate and how HE felt.


If I heard this from Phil Jacksons mouth it would be different but Pippen has already shown his true colors when he went public with his quote saying Lebron is than MJ (which is utterly ridiculous to everyone who has watched both era's of basketball). There is nothing to prove what he is saying is the truth or not but I see no reason to trust what he says in this case. Having a 2nd team source or quote would convince me but Pippen alone doesn't hold much weight with me after his debacle I mentioned above to try and tarnish MJ when he could.
You seriously have a hard time believing what a dick MJ was in his youth to his teammates? Sorry but given what little evidence you have, Pippens credibility will always remain higher than yours on this specific topic because he was actually around to WITNESS it. And there are definitely multiple sources, you dont read many NBA books do you?

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 03:37 PM
Which is why your post was off base.


But this isnt a topic about player vs player, its about how MJ was as a teammate. Give me one good reason why I would put more stock into the arguments presented, over Pippens own recollection of the events? Events he was around for in its entirety. Show me a single poster or sportswriter with that credibility.

I dont see the difference and that point is completely irrelevant in this topic. If Pippen says Bron is better than MJ, I wont believe him because I have seen the same games he has and we all have the same tools at our disposal. When it comes to how he felt being MJ's teammate, he has the ultimate sample size at his disposal.


So I get the gist of what your trying to say but its woefully out of place in this context.

How can you say he has credibility the guy says LBJ is better than MJ... Do you think that is creditable? Do you really think he believes that???

topdog
12-05-2012, 03:39 PM
There is no issue and no asterisk with winning a championship in a lockout-shortened season. Some would argue that he might have had an easier time if injuries had happened during the last 20 games rather than the playoffs i.e. Wade and Bosh.

Now, Lebron does need to win more championships to reach the stratosphere of lofty expectations, but he has 1 in his pocket so far.

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 03:40 PM
LOL because its a topic that you have very little evidence to argue against. If he were to say MJ likes drinking tomato juice, will you call his bias into play? Hes not talking about MJ the player, hes talking about MJ the teammate and how HE felt.


You seriously have a hard time believing what a dick MJ was in his youth to his teammates? Sorry but given what little evidence you have, Pippens credibility will always remain higher than yours on this specific topic because he was actually around to WITNESS it. And there are definitely multiple sources, you dont read many NBA books do you?
Listen I know he was a rough teammate... I know he called out his teammates... Called them ******* at times but let me ask you this because of the point you are trying to make on Pippens word over media members.

The books you are talking about where you are gathering this evidence were they written by teammates of Jordan???

Answer me that Chronz ;)

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:40 PM
"He said some things that I really didn't like and I couldn't take it" - Horace Grant

"If you ever talk to me like that again you will never play basketball, because I will break your legs" Cartwright

How about when he punched Kerr in the eye because he was playing physical?

Let me guess, Kerr was biased against MJ right? That punch was all a result of his face landing in the wrong spot. Man you have to be really REALLY young to not know about young MJ's idea of team building.

He would later becomes a GREAT leader, he apologized for his slights and admitted the many (MANY) times he was wrong about players. Thats called maturity, young MJ lacked it and according to Pippen, Phil Jackson was the one to instill that in him.

What am I missing here? Aside from you guys not wanting to believe them?

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 03:40 PM
Pippen is not the guy to quote I agree that he was resentful of Jordan there would be practices where after he would just cry because of how Jordan treated him so after that no matter how many ups u have with that person you have to have some inner hate to a player that bullied u on the court. Kind of see where Jordan 2.0 got bullying pau from lol

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:44 PM
How can you say he has credibility the guy says LBJ is better than MJ... Do you think that is creditable? Do you really think he believes that???
Im not asking him to compare a players legacy, we all can do that. We all have tape, we all have stats.

But when it comes to relaying what it was like behind closed doors, guess what. All we can go on is what the players tell us, in that regard he has the ULTIMATE credibility because our sample of evidence/tools is minuscule in comparison.

Like it or not, he is far more credible than you on this subject because its something you cannot debate against. Its why you have continued talking about things that do not matter in this context. You are both out of line and out of evidence. His opinion on Bron is his own, Larry Bird still wonders if we have ever seen a season as dominant as Bron just had, Im not going to disparage Bird on everything he thinks about basketball simply because I disagree with his opinion on a player vs player ranking.

Like Bird and McHale didn't get along, but that doesn't mean they arent credible when discussing what it was like to play with one another.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2012, 03:45 PM
Which is why your post was off base.

I wasn't replying to you however, nor the topic you and JB are speaking of. I was replying to a poster with my statement on why ex-players evaluations can be suspect. Nothing to do with being a teammate.


But this isnt a topic about player vs player, its about how MJ was as a teammate. Give me one good reason why I would put more stock into the arguments presented, over Pippens own recollection of the events? Events he was around for in its entirety. Show me a single poster or sportswriter with that credibility.

How can you take anyone seriously that wasn't a teammate, even a local beat reporter at the time has no idea what its like to be a teammate.


I dont see the difference and that point is completely irrelevant in this topic. If Pippen says Bron is better than MJ, I wont believe him because I have seen the same games he has and we all have the same tools at our disposal. When it comes to how he felt being MJ's teammate, he has the ultimate sample size at his disposal.


So I get the gist of what your trying to say but its woefully out of place in this context.

Again, I wasn't speaking of MJ as a teammate, I am speaking of how I, or anyone should take an ex-players opinions of a player as a whole.

Nobody has the correct understanding of what it was like to be a teammate of a player, unless they were just that.

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 03:47 PM
"He said some things that I really didn't like and I couldn't take it" - Horace Grant

"If you ever talk to me like that again you will never play basketball, because I will break your legs" Cartwright

How about when he punched Kerr in the eye because he was playing physical?

Let me guess, Kerr was biased against MJ right? That punch was all a result of his face landing in the wrong spot. Man you have to be really REALLY young to not know about young MJ's idea of team building.

He would later becomes a GREAT leader, he apologized for his slights and admitted the many (MANY) times he was wrong about players. Thats called maturity, young MJ lacked it and according to Pippen, Phil Jackson was the one to instill that in him.

What am I missing here? Aside from you guys not wanting to believe them?
You still haven't proved to me that MJ changed into a completely different player once Phil Jackson came along as you are quoting from Scottie Pippen.

I have acknowledged before you wrote this that Jordan was rough on his teammates. Sorry you still haven't proven your point to me as there is proof that Pippen has a bias against MJ with the comments he made. You have no 2nd source backing up that he became a great team player just because Phil came along and that he wasn't a team player before Phil.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2012, 03:47 PM
"He said some things that I really didn't like and I couldn't take it" - Horace Grant

"If you ever talk to me like that again you will never play basketball, because I will break your legs" Cartwright

How about when he punched Kerr in the eye because he was playing physical?

Let me guess, Kerr was biased against MJ right? That punch was all a result of his face landing in the wrong spot. Man you have to be really REALLY young to not know about young MJ's idea of team building.

He would later becomes a GREAT leader, he apologized for his slights and admitted the many (MANY) times he was wrong about players. Thats called maturity, young MJ lacked it and according to Pippen, Phil Jackson was the one to instill that in him.

What am I missing here? Aside from you guys not wanting to believe them?

And do you think any of this, Pippen's experiences with Michael, have helped form a resentment against MJ from Pippen, therfore making that statement about LeBron, even though he knew he would get heat? Something along the lines of, "that ****er was unreal, but I would love to see someone knock him off his high horse", despite Pippen obviously respecting the man as a player?

Not saying it did or didn't, but humans are humans.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:48 PM
Pippen is not the guy to quote I agree that he was resentful of Jordan there would be practices where after he would just cry because of how Jordan treated him so after that no matter how many ups u have with that person you have to have some inner hate to a player that bullied u on the court. Kind of see where Jordan 2.0 got bullying pau from lol
Uhh you just proved my point about why he is the guy to quote. Hes telling us what it was like to be his teammate. There is no greater person to ask about MJ the teammate than his actual teammates.

Think about what your saying here, if we were to follow your train of thought, that means every teammate that MJ ever degraded or physically punished shouldn't be allowed to speak of those actions. When its those very actions that we are talking about in the first place.

We arent asking him to evaluate other players, we are talking about what it was like to be MJ's teammate. And can you show me when Pippen cried? I've actually never heard that one.


He is telling us cold hard facts. That MJ punched Kerr doesnt mean Kerr is wrong/biased for pointing out that he was punched.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:52 PM
And do you think any of this, Pippen's experiences with Michael, have helped form a resentment against MJ from Pippen, therfore making that statement about LeBron, even though he knew he would get heat? Something along the lines of, "that ****er was unreal, but I would love to see someone knock him off his high horse", despite Pippen obviously respecting the man as a player?

For jebus sake try to follow the conversation, I dont care for his opinion on another player. That is the only context in which a players opinion is just as valuable as our own. We have ample evidence to form our own opinion. But when it comes to relaying what he felt behind closed doors, thats when the opinion of teammates becomes more credible than anything else that has been mentioned here.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2012, 03:55 PM
For jebus sake try to follow the conversation, I dont care for his opinion on another player. That is the only context in which a players opinion is just as valuable as our own. We have ample evidence to form our own opinion. But when it comes to relaying what he felt behind closed doors, thats when the opinion of teammates becomes more credible than anything else that has been mentioned here.

haha, relax, I am not talking about that, I replied to you above that if you want the best opinion on what a player was like as a teammate, the only credible ones come from his teammates.

I am simply asking the question. Do you think its a reach to believe Pippen has some resentment towards MJ on how big of an a-hole he was at times, and would love to see him get knocked off his perch? That was my thought when I read the statement a year ago or whenever it was. I have no way of proving it, just a thought.

I mean, if you want to sit around and play with JB all day, and waste key strokes, go for it. Was simply asking your thoughts.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:56 PM
You still haven't proved to me that MJ changed into a completely different player once Phil Jackson came along as you are quoting from Scottie Pippen.

I have acknowledged before you wrote this that Jordan was rough on his teammates. Sorry you still haven't proven your point to me as there is proof that Pippen has a bias against MJ with the comments he made. You have no 2nd source backing up that he became a great team player just because Phil came along and that he wasn't a team player before Phil.

I dont have to prove anything, Im the one with superior evidence here. That you choose to ignore what MULTIPLE teammates have said about MJ's lack of respect (unless you think punching a teammate is a good way to build trust and cohesion) is your prerogative. I mean what evidence do you have? Oh thats right none. Your trying to discredit someone on grounds that hold no relevance to the topic. Meanwhile I have multiple accounts that display how bad MJ was as a teammate.

Seriously how old are you? Do you not know about the fervent the media showed when the truth came out about what MJ was like as a teammate? I would have to imagine your at most 15 years old if you think the burden of proof lies on my shoulders. Brush up on your history plz

Chronz
12-05-2012, 03:59 PM
haha, relax, I am not talking about that, I replied to you above that if you want the best opinion on what a player was like as a teammate, the only credible ones come from his teammates.
I know your not talking about that, thats why I responded to you in the first place. Your line of thinking was not being applied in its proper context.


I am simply asking the question. Do you think its a reach to believe Pippen has some resentment towards MJ on how big of an a-hole he was at times, and would love to see him get knocked off his perch? That was my thought when I read the statement a year ago or whenever it was. I have no way of proving it, just a thought.
What statement? If its the Bron thing then Ive already told you how I felt on that off topic comment.

Steelers23_06
12-05-2012, 03:59 PM
You still haven't proved to me that MJ changed into a completely different player once Phil Jackson came along as you are quoting from Scottie Pippen.

I have acknowledged before you wrote this that Jordan was rough on his teammates. Sorry you still haven't proven your point to me as there is proof that Pippen has a bias against MJ with the comments he made. You have no 2nd source backing up that he became a great team player just because Phil came along and that he wasn't a team player before Phil.

I do agree that Phil made mj a better team player. That's what Phil specialized in like other coaches pop, doc and spo come to mind of coaches in the league today

Hawkeye15
12-05-2012, 04:01 PM
I know your not talking about that, thats why I responded to you in the first place. Your line of thinking was not being applied in its proper context.


What statement? If its the Bron thing then Ive already told you how I felt on that off topic comment.

maybe I missed it...

Chronz
12-05-2012, 04:03 PM
"He said some things that I really didn't like and I couldn't take it" - Horace Grant

"If you ever talk to me like that again you will never play basketball, because I will break your legs" Cartwright

How about when he punched Kerr in the eye because he was playing physical?

Let me guess, Kerr was biased against MJ right? That punch was all a result of his face landing in the wrong spot. Man you have to be really REALLY young to not know about young MJ's idea of team building.

He would later becomes a GREAT leader, he apologized for his slights and admitted the many (MANY) times he was wrong about players. Thats called maturity, young MJ lacked it and according to Pippen, Phil Jackson was the one to instill that in him.

What am I missing here? Aside from you guys not wanting to believe them?
Anyone?

Young MJ was far from perfect as a teammate and if you really need more quotes then your insufferably ignorant to the games history and have no room to question someone like Pippen.

If you want to believe that Phil and Tex getting MJ to trust in their system and think Pippen is lying for crediting them for helping MJ mature then thats on you, just know you have very little in the way of evidence.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 04:04 PM
I do agree that Phil made mj a better team player. That's what Phil specialized in like other coaches pop, doc and spo come to mind of coaches in the league today

Can you prove it? Because it seems like nothing anyone says is relevant because they all have bias against MJ.

theheatles
12-05-2012, 04:05 PM
The lockout season is irrelevant, if LeBron wins only 1 championship his legacy will be tarnished...

LongIslandIcedZ
12-05-2012, 04:06 PM
If Lebron only wins one championship over the course of his career, than his legacy will be tainted.

Lockout season affects nothing.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 04:08 PM
On another tangent, how would twitter react to news that MJ punches yet another teammate for playing hard in practice?

Would we be calling MJ an ******* or would we be talking about how bias those teammates were (even though MJ would routinely admit his faults)?

nickdymez
12-05-2012, 04:15 PM
Damn, 8 pages later, i guess this wasnt such a dumb thread. Who would have thought?

Gram
12-05-2012, 04:20 PM
A ring is a ring.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 04:22 PM
Damn, 8 pages later, i guess this wasnt such a dumb thread. Who would have thought?

Anytime you mention, Bron and championships. JB will show up to spread his lies and prop up his hero, thus changing the topic back to something where he can bust out his copy and paste arguments.


I do my best to destroy them but it gets tiring when one person is debating and the other is just hitting CTRL-V

Thoughts on what MJ was like as a teammate? Do you think Pippen is displaying bias by suggesting that Phil Jackson helped turn him into a leader? Seems like quite a reach to make, particularly when the best they got is off topic opinion, but hey thats MJ fans for you.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 04:37 PM
I was about to start compiling quotes from Phil Jackson on MJ's leadership and how much change was needed but then I realized something.

PJ said that Bron has the tools to surpass MJ. I guess hes biased too then right. Guess there is no one on earth thats not biased against MJ. Poor bastard, nobody wants to be like Mike.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2012, 04:39 PM
I was about to start compiling quotes from Phil Jackson on MJ's leadership and how much change was needed but then I realized something.

PJ said that Bron has the tools to surpass MJ. I guess hes biased too then right. Guess there is no one on earth thats not biased against MJ. Poor bastard, nobody wants to be like Mike.

you were going to do the whole CTRL-V argument?

:p:p:p

Chronz
12-05-2012, 04:39 PM
Want to know how bad MJ was as a leader before Phil?

The FIRST thing Collins asked of Phil when he was added to his staff was that he reach out to MJ and try to preach the same discipline and teamwork that Holzman had taught him.

Phil found it odd that in their first meeting, he was already trying to teach him to learn how to make teammates better.

When Phil finally became coach this is what management had to say

He has earned the nickname “Zen Master” over the years, and his unorthodox coaching techniques are well-known.

You add Tex Winter to that mix and there gos the argument that the Bulls didn't have HOF caliber coaching at their disposal.


PJ regularly talked about how important it was to get MJ to buy into an equal opportunity offense even stating that Cartwright was the greater calming influence on them all.



I mean if you want to believe that PJ had nothing to do with getting MJ to become more of a team player/leader then thats up to you guys, just know that it doesn't make Pippen sound bias, it makes him sound logical and makes you sound like an uneducated slap.

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 04:43 PM
I dont have to prove anything, Im the one with superior evidence here. That you choose to ignore what MULTIPLE teammates have said about MJ's lack of respect (unless you think punching a teammate is a good way to build trust and cohesion) is your prerogative. I mean what evidence do you have? Oh thats right none. Your trying to discredit someone on grounds that hold no relevance to the topic. Meanwhile I have multiple accounts that display how bad MJ was as a teammate.

Seriously how old are you? Do you not know about the fervent the media showed when the truth came out about what MJ was like as a teammate? I would have to imagine your at most 15 years old if you think the burden of proof lies on my shoulders. Brush up on your history plz
Wow calm down dude with the insults calling me 15 doesn't make you right it makes you an ***hole like I said in the quote you responded to I agree with you that Jordan was a rough teammate I never denied that once. You seem to be making this a debate about that instead of what I originally mentioned



Well then why are you wasting time giving me articles that have nothing to do with the topic? We are talking about what Pippen said about MJ and the insufferable teammate he was before Phil Jackson showed up. Showme articles that say PJ wasn't somewhat responsible for grooming MJ into a leader. Because from what I remember he was a dick up until Collins left.

Also lets not forget:



What do you mean no? Are you calling Pippen a liar? Is there any reason why I should trust you over him?


I don't believe a bloody thing Scottie says on his own merit because of his bias to Jordan... You ask for proof regarding his credability and I've given it to you dude says Lebron is better than MJ and we all have stats and memories to back up that he is full of **** in those regards.

Again you still haven't proven your point to the original quote that started this whole debate.

My quotes are showing that he has lied to discredit MJ in the past and he has a bias towards Jordan. Whether it was for him treating Pippen or other teammates like **** or that he didn't get all the glory that Jordan got I don't know you don't know and don't try and shove what Pippen says is fact down my throat.



Sorry but if your only proof that MJ was a team player after Phil came along using a player/teammate that seems to dispise him then I'm not buying it but if you need to call me 15 years old to try and win a debate well you are doing very well sir!

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 04:46 PM
LOL because its a topic that you have very little evidence to argue against. If he were to say MJ likes drinking tomato juice, will you call his bias into play? Hes not talking about MJ the player, hes talking about MJ the teammate and how HE felt.


You seriously have a hard time believing what a dick MJ was in his youth to his teammates? Sorry but given what little evidence you have, Pippens credibility will always remain higher than yours on this specific topic because he was actually around to WITNESS it. And there are definitely multiple sources, you dont read many NBA books do you?



Listen I know he was a rough teammate... I know he called out his teammates... Called them ******* at times but let me ask you this because of the point you are trying to make on Pippens word over media members.

The books you are talking about where you are gathering this evidence were they written by teammates of Jordan???

Answer me that Chronz ;)


Oh yeah you never responded to this either by the way ;) Sorry it's the 15 year old in me that caught you dodging questions :D

Chronz
12-05-2012, 04:49 PM
you were going to do the whole CTRL-V argument?

:p:p:p

I used to have my own archive before the reboot. I wish I had the quotes from PJ when hes stressing the importance of MJ accepting the system and respecting his teammates game. I didn't think I would need it for people to understand that Phil shaped MJ into the leader he would become or that Pippen would be rendered to less credible than a message board poster on a topic that only he could know fully.

I guess it could all be coincidence. That MJ finally accepted an equal opportunity offense after years of ridiculing such a thought process.

JordansBulls
12-05-2012, 04:52 PM
"He said some things that I really didn't like and I couldn't take it" - Horace Grant

"If you ever talk to me like that again you will never play basketball, because I will break your legs" Cartwright

How about when he punched Kerr in the eye because he was playing physical?

Let me guess, Kerr was biased against MJ right? That punch was all a result of his face landing in the wrong spot. Man you have to be really REALLY young to not know about young MJ's idea of team building.

He would later becomes a GREAT leader, he apologized for his slights and admitted the many (MANY) times he was wrong about players. Thats called maturity, young MJ lacked it and according to Pippen, Phil Jackson was the one to instill that in him.

What am I missing here? Aside from you guys not wanting to believe them?

Dude you took this from the ESPN sportscentury special on MJ.
:cool:

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 04:52 PM
"He said some things that I really didn't like and I couldn't take it" - Horace Grant

"If you ever talk to me like that again you will never play basketball, because I will break your legs" Cartwright

How about when he punched Kerr in the eye because he was playing physical?

Let me guess, Kerr was biased against MJ right? That punch was all a result of his face landing in the wrong spot. Man you have to be really REALLY young to not know about young MJ's idea of team building.
He would later becomes a GREAT leader, he apologized for his slights and admitted the many (MANY) times he was wrong about players. Thats called maturity, young MJ lacked it and according to Pippen, Phil Jackson was the one to instill that in him.

What am I missing here? Aside from you guys not wanting to believe them?

Ummmmmmm so you called me 15 years old and told me to learn my history but I just want to check with you... Didn't Kerr join the bulls when Phil Jackson was already coaching.

Because my quotes above show you saying that MJ because a good teammate after Phil Jackson (2 posts ago).

Something doesn't add up in what you mentioned there buddy ;)

Poor 15 year old me who doesn't know anything about basketball history :laugh:

Chronz
12-05-2012, 04:57 PM
Listen I know he was a rough teammate... I know he called out his teammates... Called them ******* at times but let me ask you this because of the point you are trying to make on Pippens word over media members.

The books you are talking about where you are gathering this evidence were they written by teammates of Jordan???

Answer me that Chronz ;)

Sorry I missed it but Im responding to several people.

Called them out? Thats putting it nicely dont you think?

He did plenty more than that. And to answer your question, depends on the book. Tall tales for example is a book comprised entirely of quotes from actual players.

The best books have snippets of information substantiated by those very players. Sam Smith wrote his book in the days before teams made media members fly separately so he got alot of great stuff in "Jordan Rules" that has been confirmed by those teammates your suggesting are biased.


In fact I remember PJ saying something about that book being used as motivation for MJ to stay the course and continue trusting his teammates. Not my words, PJ himself.

These are the things I value, if your an investigator then you have to have credible sources otherwise your writing is lacking.

It really is this simple, when it comes to stuff that transpires behind closed doors, Im not going to prioritize the opinion of someone who sees so little above people who were there for the events entirety. Particularly when their thoughts are logical (as evident from the books that depicted MJ as a poor teammate) and confirmed by other teammates and coaches.


The evidence in your favor is significantly lacking in comparison to mine.

ghettosean
12-05-2012, 05:00 PM
"He said some things that I really didn't like and I couldn't take it" - Horace Grant

"If you ever talk to me like that again you will never play basketball, because I will break your legs" Cartwright

How about when he punched Kerr in the eye because he was playing physical?

Let me guess, Kerr was biased against MJ right? That punch was all a result of his face landing in the wrong spot. Man you have to be really REALLY young to not know about young MJ's idea of team building.
He would later becomes a GREAT leader, he apologized for his slights and admitted the many (MANY) times he was wrong about players. Thats called maturity, young MJ lacked it and according to Pippen, Phil Jackson was the one to instill that in him.

What am I missing here? Aside from you guys not wanting to believe them?




Ummmmmmm so you called me 15 years old and told me to learn my history but I just want to check with you... Didn't Kerr join the bulls when Phil Jackson was already coaching.

Because my quotes above show you saying that MJ because a good teammate after Phil Jackson (2 posts ago).

Something doesn't add up in what you mentioned there buddy ;)

Poor 15 year old me who doesn't know anything about basketball history :laugh:


Does the above quote that you wrote completely not conflict with what Pippen is saying that when Phil came on board he turned MJ into a team player. Cause Kerr joined after they won a championship already.

Doesn't really add up to me what do you think?

Chronz
12-05-2012, 05:03 PM
Dude you took this from the ESPN sportscentury special on MJ.
:cool:
LOL.

Good to see your back, was afraid you went ghost again.

I took that from various sources. Not sure what it is your referring to but it wouldn't surprise me if ESPN mentions it, they are afterall a sports news network.


You can read several books and reports to come away with this knowledge. What you CANT do is find anyone who agrees that MJ was a great teammate and didnt need to learn how before Phil or people that feel Phil didn't help him.


Still waiting for those links on that one.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 05:05 PM
Ummmmmmm so you called me 15 years old and told me to learn my history but I just want to check with you... Didn't Kerr join the bulls when Phil Jackson was already coaching.

Because my quotes above show you saying that MJ because a good teammate after Phil Jackson (2 posts ago).

Something doesn't add up in what you mentioned there buddy ;)

Poor 15 year old me who doesn't know anything about basketball history :laugh:
Touche, that posts bumps you up to age 20. Heres the thing, I never said MJ perfected the craft just that he became less of a dick after all that zen.

Like before when he would punch or degrade a teammate it would take him forever to admit he was wrong and that those players did make a difference. Like how long did it take to apologize for the Cartwright criticism?

With Kerr however, he called him that same night. Is all that possible without Phil and Tex? Maybe, but you definitely cant argue against Pippen for saying it was a huge difference pre-post Phil. Doesnt make him biased when you look at the results and lack of counterevidence.

Chronz
12-05-2012, 05:15 PM
Jackson believes Smith’s book played a role in Jordan backing off his so-called supporting cast, as well as allowing the coaches to more effectively restore a level of order and maintain control of the team.

“That was probably a part of the dynamic,” said Jackson. “There were a lot of things that contributed to that. I think one of them was Michael playing in a system in which he had to form-fit himself into a group. He had to start trusting his teammates, which came from the appreciation of their individual skills and abilities. Finally, some of the shine came off the idolatry and the unbelievable press Michael got his first four or five years of his career where he could do everything from sew to cook.

- Sam Smith

Chronz
12-05-2012, 05:26 PM
A thought just occurred to me, why are focusing on the bias of players and not of the media? Do you know how much MJ meant to them and how vindictive MJ could get if you dare run a bad story about him?

Bruno
12-05-2012, 05:29 PM
yes, it would. people would always use it against him.

but the question is irrelevant. he's going to win more, lets just accept that.

DumDum
12-05-2012, 05:40 PM
their like a million Laker threads and this bad lebron one slow day PSD

kobe4thewinbang
12-05-2012, 08:14 PM
There is a 99.9% chance that LeBron will win at least one more title.