PDA

View Full Version : Is Orlando's tanking strategy backfiring?



waveycrockett
12-04-2012, 03:44 AM
They've got some wins that have shocked the hell out of me this year against DEN and LAL and few other solid ones against GSW and PHX as they clearly have more talent than ORL. For an organization that basically said they'd rather get back crap for Dwight and tank for a while to find a new superstar rather than take back solid pieces in a Dwight deal it aint happening especially when you realize most of their best players have been injured and they are a respectable 7-10 and Jaque Vaughn is too good of a coach for that mess.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing for them?

smiddy012
12-04-2012, 03:47 AM
They've got some wins that have shocked the hell out of me this year against DEN and LAL and few other solid ones against GSW and PHX as they clearly have more talent than ORL. For an organization that basically said they'd rather get back crap for Dwight and tank for a while to find a new superstar rather than take back solid pieces in a Dwight deal it aint happening especially when you realize most of their best players have been injured and they are a respectable 7-10 and Jaque Vaughn is too good of a coach for that mess.

If you payed attention during Dwightmare, you'd realize that Orlando didn't have a say.

waveycrockett
12-04-2012, 03:55 AM
They've got some wins that have shocked the hell out of me this year against DEN and LAL and few other solid ones against GSW and PHX as they clearly have more talent than ORL. For an organization that basically said they'd rather get back crap for Dwight and tank for a while to find a new superstar rather than take back solid pieces in a Dwight deal it aint happening especially when you realize most of their best players have been injured and they are a respectable 7-10 and Jaque Vaughn is too good of a coach for that mess.

If you payed attention during Dwightmare, you'd realize that Orlando didn't have a say.

They could have gotten back ALOT more from HOU, LA or BK but they chose to get garbage instead.

Sactown
12-04-2012, 04:07 AM
Didn't Cleveland start off 8-8 the year they ended up with the 2nd worst record and ended up with Kyrie? Theirs a lot more games to go so I doubt they end anywhere near .500

topdog
12-04-2012, 04:27 AM
The Magic set out to get young players to build around. Two of them - Afflalo and Vucervic, are already pretty good players. Because of contracts, they were still left with veteran talent in Davis, Harrington, Redick, Turkoglu and Nelson (who I guess is their designated long-term leader).

Vaugn was brought in to teach his team to win and it's not super surprising that they are at this point. Some of these veterans are going to be around until contract clauses come up this summer and others I would anticipate getting traded closer to the deadline, but Orlando is going by the principle that it's better to establish a winning culture and potentially get a few less ping pong balls than to force a coach to play unproven players for 48 minutes.

Also, "solid" players are another term for building mediocrity and that is the worst place to be, Houston fan :wink: (not a shot but seriously I'd think you'd understand that)

shep33
12-04-2012, 04:43 AM
Man, back to back wins on the road across the country in LA and Oakland. That's not easy to do for a contender.

The Magic are no joke, offensively their perimeter guys are in constant motion. Kobe and Artest had a ton of trouble chasing them around the floor, and guys like Afflalo and Redick had their way with them.

Vucevic has played great the past two games, while Afflalo and Redick have been on fire.

I expect them to slow down, but they have competitors on that team.

NYYCowboys
12-04-2012, 04:52 AM
Overreaction much? This isn't a good basketball team, and they will undoubtedly be in the lower half of the lottery at season's end. They'll build their team around the draft, and lure some free agents with tax free money and they'll be back in a few years.

amos1er
12-04-2012, 05:34 AM
I'm sure they are not worried as they will most likely land the number one pick in the draft. Notice the trend...

2011 - Cleveland loses Lebron and gets the number one pick.

2012 - NOH loses CP3 and lands the number one pick.

2013 - Orlando just lost D12.....

Stern will make sure to hook up Orlando on his way out of office. It's become apparent that he doesn't give a **** about how blatantly obvious he is about his **** anymore.

MagicBucsSox
12-04-2012, 05:42 AM
We need the top pick next yr bit this one.

amos1er
12-04-2012, 05:55 AM
We need the top pick next yr bit this one.

I'm sure that Stern will arrange that for you. :)

YoungOne
12-04-2012, 06:33 AM
I'm sure they are not worried as they will most likely land the number one pick in the draft. Notice the trend...

2011 - Cleveland loses Lebron and gets the number one pick.

2012 - NOH loses CP3 and lands the number one pick.

2013 - Orlando just lost D12.....

Stern will make sure to hook up Orlando on his way out of office. It's become apparent that he doesn't give a **** about how blatantly obvious he is about his **** anymore.

wouldnt surprise me, I had NO before the draft lottery this year..

NYKNYGNYY
12-04-2012, 06:42 AM
Well it'll bring in revenue ...I'd rather go to a game and see my team win then see them lose anyway but I understand the other way around

kblo247
12-04-2012, 07:09 AM
Man, back to back wins on the road across the country in LA and Oakland. That's not easy to do for a contender.

The Magic are no joke, offensively their perimeter guys are in constant motion. Kobe and Artest had a ton of trouble chasing them around the floor, and guys like Afflalo and Redick had their way with them.

Vucevic has played great the past two games, while Afflalo and Redick have been on fire.

I expect them to slow down, but they have competitors on that team.

Jameer.

Really that's all it is. They are getting their 20 something healthy games out of him they get every year and he's a game changer when healthy, but he always ends up getting hurt and then returning in a slump ever since the injury years ago

He dictated the pace both games with his pick and roll play and ball handling.

kblo247
12-04-2012, 07:12 AM
Besides who in their right mind thought a team with Big Baby, Afflalo, Jameer, and Reddick wouldn't compete every night? They might not win, but they made their college names and stay in the league by competing. Those 4 being such key cogs means they will always play hard and not just mail it in ala the Bobcats, Raptors, Kings or other tanking teams. When they lose, the lose because they were beat, not because they didn't show up, and that much is obvious watching their games all year

JNoel
12-04-2012, 08:21 AM
If you payed attention during Dwightmare, you'd realize that Orlando didn't have a say.

The Magic didn't have a say towards the end of the whole Dwightmare saga. They passed up on a Gasol or Bynum package from the Lakers; Lamb, White, Martin, Jones, and multiple first rounders; and the package of Brooks, Humphries, Lopez, first rounders. I still think they should have bit on any of these deals, they would easily be a playoff team this year, but instead it looks like they will have a .500 team for the rest of the year, not getting a top draft pick judging from their success thus far.

DumDum
12-04-2012, 09:51 AM
The magic need to be careful they might end up like the Rockets pre lin and harden but after mcgrady and yao. a middle of the pack team going to the playoffs but still getting the 15th pick in the draft not really getting better but fighting to still reverent

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
12-04-2012, 10:28 AM
Its known Houston wasn't going to give up all those players nor take back any of Orlando's bad contracts

We all see how bynum is turning out and why in the heck would we wanna trade Dwight for gasol? Rebuild bro not go older ...

The only arguement here is the nets deal but its still not an arguement to me ... getting the nets deal wouldnt have helped us suck enough we would be a middle pack team at best for years and have less financial flexibility with Lopez over 60 mill for 4 year .... also stop talking about all the draft picks we lost in that deal ... do u not get it? A team of Dwill Howard gforce possibly even Joe Johnson depending on when they got Dwight would have prob been a team challenging heat every year for a finals appearance .. therefore all those picks u talk about would be 25 and up

The trade we got was the best option ...was it good or fair value? Hell no but it was the best out of our options we had little choices due to Dwight not commiting to anyone but nets ... with this deal we were able to get what we were trying to out of multiple teams and not just one team ... we got a good player in afflalo who can score and isnt old nor over paid... got some young talent in vucevic and harkless, vuc has been great he is only 22 and has tons of potential ... got possible trade chips or expirings in al Harrington and josh mcroberts ... we got rid of jrich and duhons contracts and got a big *** TPE to use if we want ... and we got draft picks from all teams involved in the trade.

Once again its not my dream trade for Dwight but with what we had to choose from it was the best ... we get some pieces some youth some picks and most importantly we don't take big long term money contracts which keeps us flexible ....

ManRam
12-04-2012, 10:44 AM
I'm not sure how much more we could have gotten from Houston. There were a ton of rumors and names thrown around, and an attractive piece about that was their ability to take on Richardson and Duhon...who we eventually moved anyways. I'm OK with the trade, and I was at the time. Fair value? Hell no. Can you expect that? Hell no.

It's early in the season. The team has very little depth and a lot of youth. In the long run, that will start hurting them more. They've overachieved at times this year, had a few adrenaline wins, but over an 82 game season talent tends to win out.

I'm all about tanking, and I still think this team bottoms out. It's early into the season.

ACanadian
12-04-2012, 11:09 AM
Besides who in their right mind thought a team with Big Baby, Afflalo, Jameer, and Reddick wouldn't compete every night? They might not win, but they made their college names and stay in the league by competing. Those 4 being such key cogs means they will always play hard and not just mail it in ala the Bobcats, Raptors, Kings or other tanking teams. When they lose, the lose because they were beat, not because they didn't show up, and that much is obvious watching their games all year

Raptors didn't tank, we wanted too, but we suck so bad when we want to lose games we win them

rapjuicer06
12-04-2012, 12:48 PM
Orlando will be a top 7 pick next year, and hopefully a top 5 pick the year after

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 12:57 PM
Its known Houston wasn't going to give up all those players nor take back any of Orlando's bad contracts

We all see how bynum is turning out and why in the heck would we wanna trade Dwight for gasol? Rebuild bro not go older ...

The only arguement here is the nets deal but its still not an arguement to me ... getting the nets deal wouldnt have helped us suck enough we would be a middle pack team at best for years and have less financial flexibility with Lopez over 60 mill for 4 year .... also stop talking about all the draft picks we lost in that deal ... do u not get it? A team of Dwill Howard gforce possibly even Joe Johnson depending on when they got Dwight would have prob been a team challenging heat every year for a finals appearance .. therefore all those picks u talk about would be 25 and up

The trade we got was the best option ...was it good or fair value? Hell no but it was the best out of our options we had little choices due to Dwight not commiting to anyone but nets ... with this deal we were able to get what we were trying to out of multiple teams and not just one team ... we got a good player in afflalo who can score and isnt old nor over paid... got some young talent in vucevic and harkless, vuc has been great he is only 22 and has tons of potential ... got possible trade chips or expirings in al Harrington and josh mcroberts ... we got rid of jrich and duhons contracts and got a big *** TPE to use if we want ... and we got draft picks from all teams involved in the trade.

Once again its not my dream trade for Dwight but with what we had to choose from it was the best ... we get some pieces some youth some picks and most importantly we don't take big long term money contracts which keeps us flexible ....

wrong


you actually have less financial flexibility now than you would have had with lopez

xxplayerxx23
12-04-2012, 01:03 PM
Magic aren't good. They won 2 games in arow against tough teams but they still won't win more then 25-28 wins at best.

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 01:05 PM
orlando fans think its a lot easier than it really is to build from the draft....you have to get REALLY lucky or it could take 5+ years and even then its more likely than not to have a top 5 team in the east...

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
12-04-2012, 01:27 PM
JMoney yea we have more at the moment but we won't in a year or two like we would if we had Lopez and 2 years is what matters not this year... so your wrong... after this years we will lose money in Harrington Turk mcroberts reddick soooo good try lol your looking at the short term not the long term I could careless if we are paying 100 mill this year as long as we are good money wise the next 2 which we wouldn't be if we had Lopez

Raps08-09 Champ
12-04-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm sure they are not worried as they will most likely land the number one pick in the draft. Notice the trend...

2011 - Cleveland loses Lebron and gets the number one pick.

2012 - NOH loses CP3 and lands the number one pick.

2013 - Orlando just lost D12.....

Stern will make sure to hook up Orlando on his way out of office. It's become apparent that he doesn't give a **** about how blatantly obvious he is about his **** anymore.

What if they don't get the pick. What idiotic thing are you going to say?

rapjuicer06
12-04-2012, 01:35 PM
wrong


you actually have less financial flexibility now than you would have had with lopez

Wrong. We would've had to have an overpaid center in Lopez, and got back an overpaid PF in Humphries. That doesn't help in a rebuild having two overpaid players who aren't going to lead this team anywhere and then NOT having the flexibility to build around them other than the MLE, which brings in MORE complimentary players. So a team full of no one we can build around...hmm sounds like a great plan :rolleyes:

rapjuicer06
12-04-2012, 01:37 PM
orlando fans think its a lot easier than it really is to build from the draft....you have to get REALLY lucky or it could take 5+ years and even then its more likely than not to have a top 5 team in the east...

Which is why there was no point in bringing players in that would make us competitive only to never go any where and having a much worse chance at "getting lucky" and getting a top draft pick to pick a top player. Your logic fails

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 01:46 PM
JMoney yea we have more at the moment but we won't in a year or two like we would if we had Lopez and 2 years is what matters not this year... so your wrong... after this years we will lose money in Harrington Turk mcroberts reddick soooo good try lol your looking at the short term not the long term I could careless if we are paying 100 mill this year as long as we are good the next 2 which we wouldn't be if we had Lopez

its not as easy as you make it sound... not trying to sound like a dbag but the magic aren't going to attract big stars so whats the point in having salary in 2 years?... magic would have been better off taking a player you can build around and nothing else... you would have been guaranteed a tank spot... now you have a 7-mid teens lottery team because your team is filled with decent high salary players

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 01:47 PM
Which is why there was no point in bringing players in that would make us competitive only to never go any where and having a much worse chance at "getting lucky" and getting a top draft pick to pick a top player. Your logic fails

thats the current magic team right now lol

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
12-04-2012, 02:03 PM
Bro they can attract free agents players its called money and tax free money .... as long as the team is heading in a good direction no one would not wanna play there its one of the nicest arenas in the NBA .... you don't build a team around brook Lopez also wr are middle pack team at the moment but come deadline we may move alot of guys and really suck some guys like jj and baby Davis and harrington and mcroberts are likely to be moved possibly afflalo and some of those guys are carrying us right now ... so second half of season we will be worse then now

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 02:06 PM
Bro they can attract free agents players its called money and tax free money .... as long as the team is heading in a good direction no one would not wanna play there its one of the nicest arenas in the NBA .... you don't build a team around brook Lopez also wr are middle pack team at the moment but come deadline we may move alot of guys and really suck some guys like jj and baby Davis and harrington and mcroberts are likely to be moved possibly afflalo and some of those guys are carrying us right now ... so second half of season we will be worse then now

you dont build a team around brook lopez?

the nets just did and we are currently a top 3 team in the east

Hellcrooner
12-04-2012, 02:08 PM
they ahve a wink wink dea with stern.

as long as they dont make playoffs they will get the first pick.

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 02:09 PM
and you can keep thinking all you want that stars will sign in orlando because it's not happening..... stars wont leave money on the table to sign with bad teams... it wont happen... its a different nba than the past...stars play with other stars

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 02:10 PM
they ahve a wink wink dea with stern.

as long as they dont make playoffs they will get the first pick.

I'll bet my PSD account that doesnt happen

Hellcrooner
12-04-2012, 02:14 PM
I'll bet my PSD account that doesnt happen

cavs after lebron.
Hornets after paul?

Cant see a pattern?

They may do it second pick or thid pick so it does not become so blatant, but it is what it is.

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 02:19 PM
cavs after lebron.
Hornets after paul?

Cant see a pattern?

They may do it second pick or thid pick so it does not become so blatant, but it is what it is.

I just don't believe that it happens... I honestly think its just luck... I can think of more times when a deserving team didn't get the #1 than times that it actually worked out

macc
12-04-2012, 03:05 PM
and you can keep thinking all you want that stars will sign in orlando because it's not happening..... stars wont leave money on the table to sign with bad teams... it wont happen... its a different nba than the past...stars play with other stars



What are you talking about? Orlando has only been around just over 20 years and they have always had superstars on there team.

It's Florida, great weather, no taxes, best and the newest B Ball court in the league. You mix that with the fact that since Orlando has been in the league they have the best record in the eastern conferance (tied with Boston). They may not have championships but they are def a winning organization.

You have that along with max money to throw at a player who might want to be the face of the franchise which is a great oppurtunity.

In 2013 off season Orlando will have money to sign 1 full max contract, or they can wait till 2014 to sign 2 max contracts when all the big names become avail. You have the potential to add 2 max contract players to a team currently with 3 1st round draft pics, Afflalo and a top 7 pic (most likely) in this next years draft.

Are you ignorant enough to think players wouldn't want to sign with a team that's built to have that much flexibility in the next 2 years?

Also to reply to another one of your comments. You guys didn't build around Lopez, you built around D will. You're a top 3 team in the east thanks to a combination of Lopez, D Will, Crash, Johnson. Having Lopez as a #1 option would get a team nowhere, even with your team you're looking at 2nd round playoff exits for the next 3 years.

jmoney85
12-04-2012, 03:08 PM
What are you talking about? Orlando has only been around just over 20 years and they have always had superstars on there team.

It's Florida, great weather, no taxes, best and the newest B Ball court in the league. You mix that with the fact that since Orlando has been in the league they have the best record in the eastern conferance (tied with Boston). They may not have championships but they are def a winning organization.

You have that along with max money to throw at a player who might want to be the face of the franchise which is a great oppurtunity.

In 2013 off season Orlando will have money to sign 1 full max contract, or they can wait till 2014 to sign 2 max contracts when all the big names become avail. You have the potential to add 2 max contract players to a team currently with 3 1st round draft pics, Afflalo and a top 7 pic (most likely) in this next years draft.

Are you ignorant enough to think players wouldn't want to sign with a team that's built to have that much flexibility in the next 2 years?

Also to reply to another one of your comments. You guys didn't build around Lopez, you built around D will. You're a top 3 team in the east thanks to a combination of Lopez, D Will, Crash, Johnson. Having Lopez as a #1 option would get a team nowhere, even with your team you're looking at 2nd round playoff exits for the next 3 years.

keep living in the past... nba is different today... not easy to acquire stars unless you're a big market in which they aren't... if orlando was that great than dwight wouldn't have left


and the nets are built around lopez... dwill may be the best player but the nets rely on lopez more than dwill

macc
12-04-2012, 03:19 PM
keep living in the past... nba is different today... not easy to acquire stars unless you're a big market in which they aren't... if orlando was that great than dwight wouldn't have left


and the nets are built around lopez... dwill may be the best player but the nets rely on lopez more than dwill



"Keep living in the past" hahaahhaa riiight, Oklahoma must be one of those "big markets" you're talking about right....

Money talks. Only so many teams have flexibility to offer somone a max contract. Show me the All star/superstar in their prime or close to it who is taking an MLE/min to play in NY/Brooklyn over a MAX contract to be the face of a winning franchise..... oh wait...there isn't any.

ManRam
12-04-2012, 03:37 PM
wrong


you actually have less financial flexibility now than you would have had with lopez

Meh...

Lopez making 60 million over 4 years isn't a great way to start rebuilding. I prefer having both Afflalo's 4 years 30 million (last year not guaranteed) and Al Harrington's partially guaranteed contract. We can cut Al and just give him ~7 million over the next two seasons. Basically, after this year (which is what matters for flexibility), we only owe Afflalo ~22 over 3 years, Harrington 7-8 over 2 years and that's it. We lost Duhon's contract too, which wasn't going to happen in a BK trade.


It's close, but I do think we're more flexible, if for no other reason than having money tied up into 2-3 players instead of 1. Easier to shed that cap, and that's the definition of flexible.

rapjuicer06
12-04-2012, 04:07 PM
Meh...

Lopez making 60 million over 4 years isn't a great way to start rebuilding. I prefer having both Afflalo's 4 years 30 million (last year not guaranteed) and Al Harrington's partially guaranteed contract. We can cut Al and just give him ~7 million over the next two seasons. Basically, after this year (which is what matters for flexibility), we only owe Afflalo ~22 over 3 years, Harrington 7-8 over 2 years and that's it. We lost Duhon's contract too, which wasn't going to happen in a BK trade.


It's close, but I do think we're more flexible, if for no other reason than having money tied up into 2-3 players instead of 1. Easier to shed that cap, and that's the definition of flexible.

Don't forget adding in Humphries along with Lopez. It wasn't just Lopez, we had to match contracts and Hump would have came along as well.