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View Full Version : Stat Stuffer vs. Stat Padder



JasonJohnHorn
12-03-2012, 07:33 PM
I've noticed in conversations lately people have been referring to players as "stat stuffer" in a negative way. When I first heard the term used, back in the 80's, it was used to describe good all-around players. Guys like Alvin Robertson who would drop some numbers in every catagory, and later on Pippen and Robery Horry when he was with the Rockets. Now it would be a good way to describe AK-47 or Josh Smith. Obviously big name guys like Hakeem back in the day, and Robinson, and Jordan, or LBJ these days.

This was different than "stat padding" or as some would say "stat whore".


This is being a "stat whore" or "stat padder"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hADE70REy7k

And this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzRvZcFn48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtGHHnA9ms



So what do you guys think? Is there a difference between a "stat stuffer" and a "stat whore" or "stat padder"?

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-03-2012, 07:36 PM
i think its impossible to stat pad because everyone would do that than cos u get paid lol

when someone is going off for 30 8 8 like jordan did for a full season, u gotta give props. or even k love.

its the nba.. not some school yard thing lol all the players especially in this era are pretty athletic, so i always dont pay attention to any stat padding theories.

its silly.

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-03-2012, 07:37 PM
Stat stuffer iggy .. Stat padder rondo

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-03-2012, 07:38 PM
and to those videos, thats the team running plays lol blame the coach than not the player lol

THE MTL
12-03-2012, 07:40 PM
Josh smith, ak-47, and danny granger are stat stuffers. They naturally just fill up the stat sheet because that is their game.

Kevin Love, David Lee, Monta Ellis are stat padders. They'll put up a tremendous stat line but their team still loses and overall team still sucks.

For example, if Kevin Love goes off for 35pts 20rebs....his team probi still lost the game.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 07:41 PM
Stat stuffer is a player who gets numbers for the name on the front of the jersey.

Stat padder, or "whore", is a player who gets numbers for the name on the back of the jersey.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-03-2012, 07:41 PM
blatches and davis is funny tho lol

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 07:42 PM
Josh smith, ak-47, and danny granger are stat stuffers. They naturally just fill up the stat sheet because that is their game.

Kevin Love, David Lee, Monta Ellis are stat padders. They'll put up a tremendous stat line but their team still loses and overall team still sucks.

For example, if Kevin Love goes off for 35pts 20rebs....his team probi still lost the game.

and do you know why they lost the game? It's because the rest of the roster didn't decide to show up that night or guard anyone, or because the roster has players playing big minutes that don't belong in a rotation...

Again, context seems to be lost in this forum. Blanket statements just get thrown around here, without the person having an actual understanding of how the game actually works.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 07:45 PM
This will obviously turn into another Love bashing thread.

Ridnour
Wes Johnson
Michael Beasley
Darko Milicic
Martel Webster

These were players who got monster minutes the last 2 years alongside Love. When Adelman found out Darko did indeed suck, and that the spanish rookie should get more minutes, the team was a playoff team, until injuries machine gunned them.

Where are Wes, Darko, and Beasley now? How they playing? The roster support around Love was a monumental joke. Prove to me otherwise.

WaltonSystem
12-03-2012, 07:46 PM
The difference between the two is probably connected somewhere between efficiency and playing within the flow of the game.
i.e. if a Point guard passes up an easy layup to pass to a player to take a 15 foot jumpshot could be inferred as "padding"

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-03-2012, 07:46 PM
yeah im not one of those ppl who think klove is a stat padder or stuffer lolbut somethin like the davis or blatche videos is a diff story.

not the mcgee one. coach calls plays for u, u run the play lol

Ebbs
12-03-2012, 07:47 PM
Stat stuffer is a player who gets numbers for the name on the front of the jersey.

Stat padder, or "whore", is a player who gets numbers for the name on the back of the jersey.

Yea this works for me.

THE MTL
12-03-2012, 07:48 PM
Stat stuffer iggy .. Stat padder rondo

Rondo is not a stat padder. Whenever rondo goes off for a triple double or 20 assists, etc.....his team ALWAYS wins. That is not the definition of a stat padder.

THE MTL
12-03-2012, 07:53 PM
This will obviously turn into another Love bashing thread.

Ridnour
Wes Johnson
Michael Beasley
Darko Milicic
Martel Webster

These were players who got monster minutes the last 2 years alongside Love. When Adelman found out Darko did indeed suck, and that the spanish rookie should get more minutes, the team was a playoff team, until injuries machine gunned them.

Where are Wes, Darko, and Beasley now? How they playing? The roster support around Love was a monumental joke. Prove to me otherwise.

I've seen worse rosters put up more wins than Love's teams ever had. Toronto first season no bosh, cavs first season no lebron, john wall's wizards, blake griffin's clippers (before d'andre and paul) all put up more wins! And none of them had the luxury of having someone 24ppg 15rpg. Love's team was the worst in the league that year.

Andto further prove my point.....On a championship caliber team, Love probi wnt average 20-10. His stats are being padded right now cause his team isnt good.

Daze9900
12-03-2012, 07:54 PM
Stat stuffer is someone who has a well rounded game an is able to contribute to a team in multiple ways. It reflects in the box score. (Someone the opposite of being one-dimensional)

A stat padder someone makes a deliberate effort to tack on something extra (example Rondo passing up shots so that he can get more assists, or someone taking 3's in garbage time or playing one on one or someone close to getting a triple double so they try whatever they can to get it instead of it happening naturally in the flow of the game)

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 07:57 PM
I've seen worse rosters put up more wins than Love's teams ever had. Toronto first season no bosh, cavs first season no lebron, john wall's wizards, blake griffin's clippers (before d'andre and paul) all put up more wins! And none of them had the luxury of having someone 24ppg 15rpg. Love's team was the worst in the league that year.

Andto further prove my point.....On a championship caliber team, Love probi wnt average 20-10. His stats are being padded right now cause his team isnt good.

None of that proves your point. Context bud. The east sucks. Wolves dealt with numerous injuries, while the teams you speak of were much healthier, and more talented outside their #1 by a mile. If you want to compare rosters, by all means, go for it. I already know the answer.

The Wolves started this year with no Love, or Rubio. Roy, Budinger, Barea, and Pekovic all missed time. They had 4 starters, and their top 2 bench guys out as recent as 10 days ago. As the teams health gets better, wins are coming. We will re-visit this at that time...

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 07:58 PM
Rondo is not a stat padder. Whenever rondo goes off for a triple double or 20 assists, etc.....his team ALWAYS wins. That is not the definition of a stat padder.

you are very confused by these terms I see.

thechom80
12-03-2012, 07:58 PM
I've seen worse rosters put up more wins than Love's teams ever had. Toronto first season no bosh, cavs first season no lebron, john wall's wizards, blake griffin's clippers (before d'andre and paul) all put up more wins! And none of them had the luxury of having someone 24ppg 15rpg. Love's team was the worst in the league that year.

Andto further prove my point.....On a championship caliber team, Love probi wnt average 20-10. His stats are being padded right now cause his team isnt good.

I still find this to be the dumbest thing anyone can say. You act like defenses change the way they play them. Well, they do. They key on the one guy that can hurt them....and guess what Kevin still gets his. Don't discredit the hard work guys like him put in just because the rest of his team is a joke.

blastmasta26
12-03-2012, 08:07 PM
Stat stuffer should have a positive connotation, that's how I've always seen it. Stat padders are guys who go out of their way to add to a certain stat (often hurting the team in the process) while stat stuffers are guys who contribute to their respective teams with great all around numbers.

bucketss
12-03-2012, 08:11 PM
kevin durant vs carmelo anthony

Kuya_Clive
12-03-2012, 08:21 PM
Stat stuffers are just really well rounded players that do multiple things well, naturally. Stat padding is when a player deliberately tries to up their box score numbers on purpose for reasons such as triple doubles, contract years, and record chasing.

Faneik
12-03-2012, 08:22 PM
Kevin Love is a straight out beast, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know ***** about basketball.

The argument he's a stat padder because his team doesn't win is ridiculous.

Arguments like "Kevin Love is not a superstar because he can't take the Wolves to the play-offs" are ridiculous.

To all you Kevin Love haters:
who's the best PF in the NBA in your opinion?
do this mental exercise --> trade that PF to the Wolves for Love, and try to visualize if the Wolves are a play-off team with the roster they have now.

Swashcuff
12-03-2012, 08:25 PM
I've seen worse rosters put up more wins than Love's teams ever had. Toronto first season no bosh, cavs first season no lebron, john wall's wizards, blake griffin's clippers (before d'andre and paul) all put up more wins! And none of them had the luxury of having someone 24ppg 15rpg. Love's team was the worst in the league that year.

Andto further prove my point.....On a championship caliber team, Love probi wnt average 20-10. His stats are being padded right now cause his team isnt good.

Wait wait wait wait wait

Isn't this the same Clippers team that had Baron Davis, Eric Gordon, younger DeAndre Jordan, Mo Williams (not at the same time as Baron), Eric Bledsoe, etc etc

Are you crazy. Love has NEVER had that type of talent on his team not even this season.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 08:28 PM
Kevin Love is a straight out beast, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know ***** about basketball.

The argument he's a stat padder because his team doesn't win is ridiculous.

Arguments like "Kevin Love is not a superstar because he can't take the Wolves to the play-offs" are ridiculous.

To all you Kevin Love haters:
who's the best PF in the NBA in your opinion?
do this mental exercise --> trade that PF to the Wolves for Love, and try to visualize if the Wolves are a play-off team with the roster they have now.

well, even as a Wolves fan, I believe we have upgraded enough to make it in this season, despite the injuries (unless they just get worse). But yeah, the previous 2 seasons, as he entered elite level, his help was garbage.

Wes ****ing Johnson started 64 games last year. Wes Johnson. Read that again...

Swashcuff
12-03-2012, 08:30 PM
kevin durant vs carmelo anthony

Makes no sense whatsoever. Honestly only a Melo hater would say he'd a stat padder and I am one who have been called a Melo hater on PSD before.

Daze9900
12-03-2012, 09:58 PM
Makes no sense whatsoever. Honestly only a Melo hater would say he'd a stat padder and I am one who have been called a Melo hater on PSD before.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. As an avid knicks fan and a fan of Melo's I feel like if he has 25 points he's still going for 35 he has 35 he's going for 45 when he has 45 he drop 1 or 2 dime to chandler

Avenged
12-03-2012, 10:07 PM
and do you know why they lost the game? It's because the rest of the roster didn't decide to show up that night or guard anyone, or because the roster has players playing big minutes that don't belong in a rotation...

Again, context seems to be lost in this forum. Blanket statements just get thrown around here, without the person having an actual understanding of how the game actually works.

Sounds like Kobe and his Lakers.

Swashcuff
12-03-2012, 10:15 PM
I'm going to disagree with you on this. As an avid knicks fan and a fan of Melo's I feel like if he has 25 points he's still going for 35 he has 35 he's going for 45 when he has 45 he drop 1 or 2 dime to chandler

For their respective careers Melo has been known for his passing more so than Durant, well that's up until this season where Durant is having his more productive year in that department when Melo is having his least. Has Melo suddenly flipped the script and become a padder and Durant a stuffer because by your reasoning Melo was more of a stuffer and Durant was more of a padder prior to this season.

Faneik
12-03-2012, 10:21 PM
well, even as a Wolves fan, I believe we have upgraded enough to make it in this season, despite the injuries (unless they just get worse). But yeah, the previous 2 seasons, as he entered elite level, his help was garbage.

Wes ****ing Johnson started 64 games last year. Wes Johnson. Read that again...

I hated Beasley on that team too, glad they shipped his S out.

It will be a very hard task for the Wolves to make it this year.

Imo, 6 six teams are locks to be in the playoffs:
OKC, Spurs, Grizzlies, Clippers, Lakers, Denver

After that another 6 teams will battle for the 2 remaining spots:
Warriors, Mavs, Wolves, Jazz, Blazers, Rockets

Every game counts to make it in the west.

SteveNash
12-03-2012, 10:22 PM
Stat stuffer = Good player (LeBron)
Stat padder = Loser (Love)


This will obviously turn into another Love bashing thread.

Ridnour
Wes Johnson
Michael Beasley
Darko Milicic
Martel Webster

These were players who got monster minutes the last 2 years alongside Love. When Adelman found out Darko did indeed suck, and that the spanish rookie should get more minutes, the team was a playoff team, until injuries machine gunned them.

Where are Wes, Darko, and Beasley now? How they playing? The roster support around Love was a monumental joke. Prove to me otherwise.

Wade was able to win 47 games with a young Beasley, along with Quentin Richardson, Jermaine O'Neal, and a PG rotation of Chalmers, Arroyo, and Alston.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 10:23 PM
Sounds like Kobe and his Lakers.

boo hoo, 2 years of not having championship help in his 17 year career.

Forgive me for being a smart *** on that one dude...

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 10:24 PM
I hated Beasley on that team too, glad they shipped his S out.

It will be a very hard task for the Wolves to make it this year.

Imo, 6 six teams are locks to be in the playoffs:
OKC, Spurs, Grizzlies, Clippers, Lakers, Denver

After that another 6 teams will battle for the 2 remaining spots:
Warriors, Mavs, Wolves, Jazz, Blazers, Rockets

Every game counts to make it in the west.

I don't disagree with that. The Wolves kept themselves afloat while Love, Rubio, and then Roy, Budinger, Barea, Pekovic, and now Kirilenko went down. When the health comes (Love is getting better, Rubio back at practice with no restraints, the rest outside Roy/Bud back), the wins will come.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 10:25 PM
Stat stuffer = Good player (LeBron)
Sta padder = Loser (Love)

SteveNash=not understanding context when making statements.

SteveNash
12-03-2012, 10:28 PM
SteveNash=not understanding context when making statements.

Hawkeye15=Doesn't value winning, doesn't know what winning is.

JasonJohnHorn
12-03-2012, 10:34 PM
Stat stuffer is a player who gets numbers for the name on the front of the jersey.

Stat padder, or "whore", is a player who gets numbers for the name on the back of the jersey.

This is perfect! Close thread.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 10:39 PM
Hawkeye15=Doesn't value winning, doesn't know what winning is.

you continue to leave out context, and overrate players that you have in your mind as elite. Its been your deal since I have seen you here.

ShadyOne
12-03-2012, 10:44 PM
I'm sorry, but regardless of the Wolves winning or not, I don't see how you could bash Love. 26 and 13, or 20 and 15 per game is exactly that. If he is putting up those kind of numbers, he can't be hurting the team. I get an argument that maybe he isn't the greatest on D, but honestly, how many players are actually good defenders? When he puts up 30/20, is the other PF against him doing more than he is? Not a chance...

Reminds me of people killing David Lee. Was/is he the greatest, no. Does he have flaws, sure. But he definitely played good, played hard, and brought a lot to the table.

Jesse2272
12-03-2012, 10:46 PM
Chris Copeland is a stat stuffer

Wisdom Listens
12-03-2012, 10:47 PM
Hawkeye15=Doesn't value winning, doesn't know what winning is.

Good one dude. Comeback of the year right there. :standing ovation:

SteveNash
12-03-2012, 10:51 PM
you continue to leave out context, and overrate players that you have in your mind as elite. Its been your deal since I have seen you here.

What stat padder have I propped up?

I've been right on all my player and team evaluations.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 10:53 PM
What stat padder have I propped up?

I've been right on all my player and team evaluations.

your player evaluations have never impressed me. You seem to have an agenda, and have never been someone whose insight I agree with. I could care less if the feeling is mutual.

JasonJohnHorn
12-03-2012, 10:54 PM
I don't get these guys that call Love and Rondo stat padders.


Firstly, since when is it a bad thing to share the ball? Rondo is a pass-first PG. Yes, I've seen him with a clear lane to the basket on the fast break pass the ball up to another player to give him the dunk, but teammates likes that. It doesn't hurt the team. It's like Nash moving the ball and giving other guys a chance to shine. It's not like Rondo yells at guys for missing shots and not getting him the assist (which Wilt Chamberlain did do).

This game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVDEredOCfA IS HISTORIC!! Rondo is one of only 4 players since 85 to post 15 or more in points, assists and rebounds, the other guys are Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Jason Kidd. That's some good company.

Love, you can't get 20/20 in this league and not be amazing. You cannot lead the league in rebounding and not be an amazing rebound. In the NBA, you have to earn every rebound. When Rodman broke out as an elite rebounder, the Pistons sucked. But we saw, when he landed in SA and CHI he could win when the talent was around him. Nobody called Rodman a stat whore for getting those rebounds. Kevin Love is as good as any rebounder this league has seen since Rodman retired. Period.

This is my problem, these guys put up good numbers, and some how people contextualize it as a bad thing. Kevin Love busts his @$$ off every game, regardless of whether they are losing or winning, regardless of whether they are in or out of playoff contention. Isn't that what you want to see as a fan? Isn't anything less than that unacceptable?

Rondo takes pride in leading the league in assists. What's wrong with that. I'd rather have a guy like Nash or Rondo who is interested in making his teammates better than a guy who is just trying to lead the league in scoring and doesn't care is he's hogging the ball and not getting his teammates involved, and then tells a teammate to put on "big boy pants" when he's not getting his teammates involved and leading them to a sub .500 record. I'd rather have a guy who shares an easy basket with a teammate on a fast break than a guy who looks to shoot when he gets the ball, rather that looking to get his team the best shot available.

Jesse2272
12-03-2012, 10:55 PM
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."

Jimi Hendrix

SteveNash
12-03-2012, 11:03 PM
your player evaluations have never impressed me. You seem to have an agenda, and have never been someone whose insight I agree with. I could care less if the feeling is mutual.

The only agenda I have is bringing great basketball knowledge to the masses. So far I've been more right on your favorite player, so you should start listening.

Wisdom Listens
12-03-2012, 11:05 PM
The only agenda I have is bringing great basketball knowledge to the masses. So far I've been more right on your favorite player, so you should start listening.

You're wrong on that one. Hawkeye's favorite player is Kobe Bryant.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2012, 11:05 PM
The only agenda I have is bringing great basketball knowledge to the masses. So far I've been more right on your favorite player, so you should start listening.

nah, I mean in general. You clearly don't have an understanding of evaluating a player. At least from my perspective. Again, I really don't care what you retort with, I have made up my mind about your knowledge. You are free to do the same.

Last response. Feel free to continue.

SteveNash
12-03-2012, 11:08 PM
nah, I mean in general. You clearly don't have an understanding of evaluating a player. At least from my perspective. Again, I really don't care what you retort with, I have made up my mind about your knowledge. You are free to do the same.

Last response. Feel free to continue.

Make baseless claims and can't back them out when called on it, then run away. Is that your winning strategy?

asandhu23
12-03-2012, 11:12 PM
and do you know why they lost the game? It's because the rest of the roster didn't decide to show up that night or guard anyone, or because the roster has players playing big minutes that don't belong in a rotation...

Again, context seems to be lost in this forum. Blanket statements just get thrown around here, without the person having an actual understanding of how the game actually works.

Wow, Hawkeye. didn't think you would ever see that perspective of Monta. :clap:

Swashcuff
12-03-2012, 11:12 PM
your player evaluations have never impressed me. You seem to have an agenda, and have never been someone whose insight I agree with. I could care less if the feeling is mutual.

Spot on quite honestly. One of the biggest waste of times around these parts without question.

Swashcuff
12-03-2012, 11:14 PM
Wow, Hawkeye. didn't think you would ever see that perspective of Monta. :clap:

Monta doesn't stuff the sheets though :shrug:

asandhu23
12-03-2012, 11:16 PM
Monta doesn't stuff the sheets though :shrug:

no. he used to argue that Monta never lead teams to victory and pretty much never looked at the rest of the team including the coaches.. I guess he's discovered context at last via Kevin Love.

mngopher35
12-04-2012, 12:03 AM
haha so some people here honestly think a stat padder is someone who plays well (good stats) on a losing team? Seriously?

Stat stuffer does a bit of everything to help a team win, and it tends to show in the box score.

A stat padder is a player who is mostly concerned about how he as an individual plays and tries to get stats possibly at a cost to the team. There have been some hilarious examples of this when people try and miss on purpose to get a rebound for a double double, or someone who needs one point for a double double and wont pass the ball.

Hawkeye15
12-04-2012, 02:07 AM
Wow, Hawkeye. didn't think you would ever see that perspective of Monta. :clap:

Because he was never in the position to be evaluated as a leader. Monta's best play came as a 3rd option..

Hawkeye15
12-04-2012, 02:09 AM
no. he used to argue that Monta never lead teams to victory and pretty much never looked at the rest of the team including the coaches.. I guess he's discovered context at last via Kevin Love.

I argued correctly. Monta is a 3rd wheel on a decent team. It couldn't be easier to prove.

Sota4Ever
12-04-2012, 02:17 AM
Oh how much I loathe Love. I mean that stuff he calls facial hair. Come on that is just disgusting. What about his terrible vertical. Good lord dude couldn't even jump over a phone book. Don't even get me started on the sad excuse he calls cheering for teammates. I mean come on he is like the last person to give everyone high fives. My last thing I hate about love is his consistently getting second chance points. I mean give the other team a chance to get the ball...

MickeyMgl
12-04-2012, 02:49 AM
Rondo is not a stat padder. Whenever rondo goes off for a triple double or 20 assists, etc.....his team ALWAYS wins. That is not the definition of a stat padder.

Wheher or not his team wins is independent of whether a player is a padder or a stuffer.

MickeyMgl
12-04-2012, 02:56 AM
I'm going to disagree with you on this. As an avid knicks fan and a fan of Melo's I feel like if he has 25 points he's still going for 35 he has 35 he's going for 45 when he has 45 he drop 1 or 2 dime to chandler

Maybe he's one-dimensional, and that's a different subject. Scoring is, after all, what he does. It's his contribution. Just because it is the stat with the most glory doesn't mean it is necessarily stat-stuffing.

Sactown
12-04-2012, 03:27 AM
Actually I think there are

Stat Padders

Stat Stuffers

and Hollow Stats

Stat padders or players like, Ellis (inside sources say he checks his stat line after every quarter and actively looks for his own) and Mcgee

Stat stuffer or Players like Lebron (do absolutely everything well and fill the stat sheet) also Iggy and Tyreke

Hollow Stats, are players accused of posting ridiculous stats that in the end don't translate to wins, or in Jerry Reynolds terms "Every team has a leading scorer" which Kevin Love is accused of doing, not saying he does or doesn't just using him as an example since his name comes up a lot, another was Chris Bosh in Toronto

mngopher35
12-04-2012, 03:50 AM
Actually I think there are

Stat Padders

Stat Stuffers

and Hollow Stats

Stat padders or players like, Ellis (inside sources say he checks his stat line after every quarter and actively looks for his own) and Mcgee

Stat stuffer or Players like Lebron (do absolutely everything well and fill the stat sheet) also Iggy and Tyreke

Hollow Stats, are players accused of posting ridiculous stats that in the end don't translate to wins, or in Jerry Reynolds terms "Every team has a leading scorer" which Kevin Love is accused of doing, not saying he does or doesn't just using him as an example since his name comes up a lot, another was Chris Bosh in Toronto

I agree with this. Not saying anyone is or isn't on any of these levels but I feel like many people claiming someone is a stat padder really means they have hollow stats

asandhu23
12-04-2012, 03:53 AM
Actually I think there are

Stat Padders

Stat Stuffers

and Hollow Stats

Stat padders or players like, Ellis (inside sources say he checks his stat line after every quarter and actively looks for his own) and Mcgee

Stat stuffer or Players like Lebron (do absolutely everything well and fill the stat sheet) also Iggy and Tyreke

Hollow Stats, are players accused of posting ridiculous stats that in the end don't translate to wins, or in Jerry Reynolds terms "Every team has a leading scorer" which Kevin Love is accused of doing, not saying he does or doesn't just using him as an example since his name comes up a lot, another was Chris Bosh in Toronto


That's ********. "Inside sources", my ***. its Fox News "Some say ( insert claim )" all over again.

Sactown
12-04-2012, 03:59 AM
That's ********. "Inside sources", my ***. its Fox News "Some say ( insert claim )" all over again.

Actually, I heard it from GSW ball boy, saying he hears Monte constantly talk crap about the other players and usually goes out to get his own, and that he always had looked at his numbers between quarters, but hey you're right he could of been lying, but why would he of?

Sactown
12-04-2012, 04:01 AM
I agree with this. Not saying anyone is or isn't on any of these levels but I feel like many people claiming someone is a stat padder really means they have hollow stats

I think of a stat padder like when WB went and missed a shot to get the rebound to get the triple double one night after the game was clearly over and he should of just let the time run out as someone padding stats. or dunking at the end of games. Or players playing for the name on the back as stat padders, not because your team loses lol..

mngopher35
12-04-2012, 04:35 AM
I think of a stat padder like when WB went and missed a shot to get the rebound to get the triple double one night after the game was clearly over and he should of just let the time run out as someone padding stats. or dunking at the end of games. Or players playing for the name on the back as stat padders, not because your team loses lol..

Yup I totally agree, otherwise any good player on a bad team would be a stat padder. Those are the types of moments I think of too (ricky davis and mcgee doing anything for their triple double) when I hear the term stat padder. People who only care about their own play/stats.

asandhu23
12-04-2012, 04:47 AM
Actually, I heard it from GSW ball boy, saying he hears Monte constantly talk crap about the other players and usually goes out to get his own, and that he always had looked at his numbers between quarters, but hey you're right he could of been lying, but why would he of?

wow. what a reliable source. :speechless:

NYYCowboys
12-04-2012, 05:01 AM
I've seen Ricky Davis's attempt to get a triple double before, but never saw Blatche's. Hilarious. What a sap.

amos1er
12-04-2012, 05:05 AM
Lebron is a Stat Stuffer and a Stat Padder if I ever saw one. Throughout his career he has been able to milk extra assists and rebounds by playing as a "point forward", meaning he plays a pg on offense to get as many assists as possible, and a power forward on defense to get as many rebounds as possible. He has never had a true pg or center on any of his teams and I believe that is by design.

A true center would take too much of the post away from him along with rebounds. He would not have the lane available all the time to drive and kick to the designated 3 pt snipper. A true pg would make most of the plays forcing Lebron into a wing position. If Lebron had a true center and pg on his team, his stat line would look more like 25, 5, 5. and his fg% would shrink as well mainly due to two reasons: The teams could isolate him more on defense as he isn't the one in charge of playmaking, and he would have to shoot more from the outside because a true center would demand more of the post.

Of course having a true center and pg would increase his teams chances of winning, but my guess is that he wants to win his way, with him stuffing and padding his stats. But hey, he has been able to win 3 MVP's and 1 ring playing this way. But IMO, his 3 MVP's have more to do with him stuffing his regular season record in the weak east and his one ring has more to do with the combination of the weak east and him forming a super team who won during a lock out season with many questionable calls from the refs. He was also very lucky that San Antonio got ****ed so hard by the refs against OKC so that he didn't have to face them in the finals again. Guess we can all thank Stern for that one. So yes, Lebron is "The King" alright..."The King of Stat Stuffing".

Ask yourselves this honestly Lebronites...Would Leborn have won 3 MVP's if he was playing in the West??? Not likely. But of course the "non bias" media never takes that into account when casting their votes. Funny how they handicap for everything else, but when if comes to Lebron's regular season wins, they never even bring up the fact that it's much easier to win in the east than in the west. Of course if Kobe was winning a ton of regular season games in the east, I'm sure this would be taken into account. Likewise, both Shaq and Kobe were penalized for playing with each other when it came to MVP voting, yet Lebron was not even though he had 2 superstar teammates as well as a lesser record in a weaker conference.

Look at last year for example, Kevin Durant had less help on his team and he was in a more difficult conference than Lebron. Yet he still was able to lead the league in scoring and his team to a better record than Lebron. Why no MVP for Durant than??? Seems like the rules are constantly changing in favor of "The Chosen One"....aka the one who holds the multi million dollar Nike and Gatorade Deals.

Swashcuff
12-04-2012, 10:07 AM
Lebron is a Stat Stuffer and a Stat Padder if I ever saw one. Throughout his career he has been able to milk extra assists and rebounds by playing as a "point forward", meaning he plays a pg on offense to get as many assists as possible, and a power forward on defense to get as many rebounds as possible.

You know what's funny? LeBron's teams offense have been at their most potent when he was playing running the point. This ideal that he plays the PF on defense is baseless and holds no water whatsoever. He guards whatever position his coach asks him to. He doesn't choose to guard the opposing team's PF because it gets him more rebounds. When he guarded Rose was he playing the PF as well? LeBron was almost exclusively playing the perimeter on D in his Cleveland days you know the days when he put up the best stats of his career.

I guess I should say the same about Magic and the offense in which he ran because he clearly maximized on his ability on offense and grabbing defensive rebounds didn't he.


He has never had a true pg or center on any of his teams and I believe that is by design.

Tell us about this design. You do realize that because of LeBron James Mo Williams had without question the best season of his career becoming an all star in the process right? You do realize that LeBron came to a Cleveland team with Big Z already in the fold and with how thin the C position has been it was almost impossible to find a "True C" right? How many "True Cs" were there that the Cavs could just go out there and put next to LeBron. Expand on this idiotic conspiracy theory of yours.


A true center would take too much of the post away from him along with rebounds

And with a FG% of over 60 in the low post that C would have the best year of his career in terms of scoring efficiency with LeBron. LeBron in turn would have 2-3 more assists a game with a "True C".


He would not have the lane available all the time to drive and kick to the designated 3 pt snipper.

It's funny because not a great deal of LeBron's assists to 3 pointers are as a result of the drive and dish. Let's say they are there is absolutely no reason to believe that a player of LeBron's calibre won't have a lane to the basket on a consistent basis even with a true C in there. You seem to believe all LeBron's drives are just on ISO possessions.


A true pg would make most of the plays forcing Lebron into a wing position. If Lebron had a true center and pg on his team, his stat line would look more like 25, 5, 5. and his fg% would shrink as well mainly due to two reasons: The teams could isolate him more on defense as he isn't the one in charge of playmaking, and he would have to shoot more from the outside because a true center would demand more of the post.

If LeBron had a true C and PG on his team his FG% would sky rocket. The PG would be able to create for him in ways no one else has ever been able to and C would draw a great deal of attention thus allowing him to be doubled much less since he is such a great creator for others. LeBron wouldn't have to shoot more from outside either. Magic played with Norm Nixon and rarely (I mean rarely) shot from the outside. LeBron is still the same player and when he drive no is going to attempt to get in his way.


Of course having a true center and pg would increase his teams chances of winning, but my guess is that he wants to win his way, with him stuffing and padding his stats.

A Kobe fan should be the LAST person on the history of this earth to say something this foolish. Apparently you don't know Kobe Bryant.


But hey, he has been able to win 3 MVP's and 1 ring playing this way. But IMO, his 3 MVP's have more to do with him stuffing his regular season record in the weak east and his one ring has more to do with the combination of the weak east and him forming a super team who won during a lock out season with many questionable calls from the refs. He was also very lucky that San Antonio got ****ed so hard by the refs against OKC so that he didn't have to face them in the finals again. Guess we can all thank Stern for that one. So yes, Lebron is "The King" alright..."The King of Stat Stuffing".

Wanna talk about luck? Kobe Bryant was extremely lucky to have his wishes granted and be traded to the team that in that very same off season was able to sign the most dominant big man to ever step onto the hardwood. What if LeBron walked onto a team with prime and peaking Shaq? How many titles would he have? I can assure you as well he would not have ran Shaq out of town. He'd realistically have 5+ titles if he had Kobe's luck.


Ask yourselves this honestly Lebronites...Would Leborn have won 3 MVP's if he was playing in the West??? Not likely. But of course the "non bias" media never takes that into account when casting their votes. Funny how they handicap for everything else, but when if comes to Lebron's regular season wins, they never even bring up the fact that it's much easier to win in the east than in the west. Of course if Kobe was winning a ton of regular season games in the east, I'm sure this would be taken into account. Likewise, both Shaq and Kobe were penalized for playing with each other when it came to MVP voting, yet Lebron was not even though he had 2 superstar teammates as well as a lesser record in a weaker conference.

So Kevin Durant played with all star Russell Westbrook, 6MOY James Harden, 2nd place DPOY Serge Ibaka and a top 5 perimeter defender in Thabo but he had the stronger team because of two Superstars. By your notion Magic and Larry Bird should have no MVPs right?


Look at last year for example, Kevin Durant had less help on his team and he was in a more difficult conference than Lebron. Yet he still was able to lead the league in scoring and his team to a better record than Lebron. Why no MVP for Durant than??? Seems like the rules are constantly changing in favor of "The Chosen One"....aka the one who holds the multi million dollar Nike and Gatorade Deals.

That's totally subjective. The Heat had a top 5 defense anchored by LeBron James (All D first team) a top 10 offense ran by LeBron James who finished 3rd in scoring by less than a point to KD while getting twice the assists as KD and dominating while his 2nd best player (Dwyane Wade) missed more than a quarter of the season due to injury. To say KD less help when Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Serge Ibaka, Nick Collison and Kendrick Perkins missed a combined 7 games is without a doubt baseless. Bosh alone missed more games last season than those guys, Wade missed twice as much.

Do you see the GAPING holes in your argument. LeBron was a better player with less help in a weaker conference. The only thing you've said in this entire post that made any sense was the fact that LeBron plays in a weaker conference. A fact that cannot be overlooked.

You ignore the FACTS to fit your agenda. Why take your blinders off and actually open your eyes. You'd start appreciating the game of basketball MUCH more.

metsbulls1025
12-04-2012, 10:14 AM
Lebron pads his rebounds though. I have seen so many times where he would cut in front of his own players under the rim to grab a board.

thenaj17
12-04-2012, 11:07 AM
yeah im not one of those ppl who think klove is a stat padder or stuffer lolbut somethin like the davis or blatche videos is a diff story.

not the mcgee one. coach calls plays for u, u run the play lol

No way did coach call for McGee to take a 16ft fadeaway...

Da Knicks
12-04-2012, 11:11 AM
This will obviously turn into another Love bashing thread.

Ridnour
Wes Johnson
Michael Beasley
Darko Milicic
Martel Webster

These were players who got monster minutes the last 2 years alongside Love. When Adelman found out Darko did indeed suck, and that the spanish rookie should get more minutes, the team was a playoff team, until injuries machine gunned them.

Where are Wes, Darko, and Beasley now? How they playing? The roster support around Love was a monumental joke. Prove to me otherwise.

I will not argue against you on Love having a bad team around him but you criticise Melo for the same exact reasons last couple of seasons.

bucketss
12-04-2012, 11:13 AM
Lebron is a Stat Stuffer and a Stat Padder if I ever saw one. Throughout his career he has been able to milk extra assists and rebounds by playing as a "point forward", meaning he plays a pg on offense to get as many assists as possible, and a power forward on defense to get as many rebounds as possible. He has never had a true pg or center on any of his teams and I believe that is by design.

A true center would take too much of the post away from him along with rebounds. He would not have the lane available all the time to drive and kick to the designated 3 pt snipper. A true pg would make most of the plays forcing Lebron into a wing position. If Lebron had a true center and pg on his team, his stat line would look more like 25, 5, 5. and his fg% would shrink as well mainly due to two reasons: The teams could isolate him more on defense as he isn't the one in charge of playmaking, and he would have to shoot more from the outside because a true center would demand more of the post.

Of course having a true center and pg would increase his teams chances of winning, but my guess is that he wants to win his way, with him stuffing and padding his stats. But hey, he has been able to win 3 MVP's and 1 ring playing this way. But IMO, his 3 MVP's have more to do with him stuffing his regular season record in the weak east and his one ring has more to do with the combination of the weak east and him forming a super team who won during a lock out season with many questionable calls from the refs. He was also very lucky that San Antonio got ****ed so hard by the refs against OKC so that he didn't have to face them in the finals again. Guess we can all thank Stern for that one. So yes, Lebron is "The King" alright..."The King of Stat Stuffing".

Ask yourselves this honestly Lebronites...Would Leborn have won 3 MVP's if he was playing in the West??? Not likely. But of course the "non bias" media never takes that into account when casting their votes. Funny how they handicap for everything else, but when if comes to Lebron's regular season wins, they never even bring up the fact that it's much easier to win in the east than in the west. Of course if Kobe was winning a ton of regular season games in the east, I'm sure this would be taken into account. Likewise, both Shaq and Kobe were penalized for playing with each other when it came to MVP voting, yet Lebron was not even though he had 2 superstar teammates as well as a lesser record in a weaker conference.

Look at last year for example, Kevin Durant had less help on his team and he was in a more difficult conference than Lebron. Yet he still was able to lead the league in scoring and his team to a better record than Lebron. Why no MVP for Durant than??? Seems like the rules are constantly changing in favor of "The Chosen One"....aka the one who holds the multi million dollar Nike and Gatorade Deals.

aha.. thats what i love about you guys, all last season people like you 'the haters, were saying the thunder were more talented and wade was done .. westbrook was better.. but in an attempt to discredit the heat players you throw this up ahaha. i think even nickdymes said the thunder big three was more talented once bwhahhaa.

bucketss
12-04-2012, 11:15 AM
its getting very odd how in every single thread the same posters are in it to try to discredit lebron or wade the SAME ONES.

bucketss
12-04-2012, 11:18 AM
whats even more sad is they are always attacking other posters because they feel all they do is discredit kobe.

thechom80
12-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Kevin Love sucks. Should be in the D-League.

BklynKnicks3
12-04-2012, 12:25 PM
Kevin love thread?

Chronz
12-04-2012, 12:25 PM
You know what's funny?

I do. Its that no matter how often you refute his fallible claims, he will regurgitate them in hopes that the masses are swayed before anyone chimes in with some truth.

Da Knicks
12-04-2012, 12:45 PM
[QUOTE=amos1er;24574570]Lebron is a Stat Stuffer and a Stat Padder if I ever saw one. Throughout his career he has been able to milk extra assists and rebounds by playing as a "point forward", meaning he plays a pg on offense to get as many assists as possible, and a power forward on defense to get as many rebounds as possible. He has never had a true pg or center on any of his teams and I believe that is by design.

A true center would take too much of the post away from him along with rebounds. He would not have the lane available all the time to drive and kick to the designated 3 pt snipper. A true pg would make most of the plays forcing Lebron into a wing position. If Lebron had a true center and pg on his team, his stat line would look more like 25, 5, 5. and his fg% would shrink as well mainly due to two reasons: The teams could isolate him more on defense as he isn't the one in charge of playmaking, and he would have to shoot more from the outside because a true center would demand more of the post.

This is true but it comes from using the player to the best of his ability while he has the advantage. Lebron has rare speed and agility for a player so of course you play him at pf on defense and pg on offense. You dont minimise a players talents you use them. Lebron has the advantage right now and should use it he will not forever have the agility and speed that makes him have the advantage on other players. I agree that everything was perfect for them last year with a short season not letting some teams learn the offense and other players, most of the teams they faced having big injuries to the roster and the spurs not making to the finals on very bogus calls. Lebron is a stat stuffer because he is a great player but yes a lot of his numbers come from the system around him. His physical abilities are however the reason he can play those positions so something has to give.

Ill go with Lebron being such a unique physical player that me as a coach would use the same way he is being used until the wheels fell off.

Chronz
12-04-2012, 12:49 PM
F it

Bron is as much of a stat padder/stuffer as MJ was so who cares. Its not as if you can just fake your way to that level of production.

Hawkeye15
12-04-2012, 02:55 PM
Lebron is a Stat Stuffer and a Stat Padder if I ever saw one. Throughout his career he has been able to milk extra assists and rebounds by playing as a "point forward", meaning he plays a pg on offense to get as many assists as possible, and a power forward on defense to get as many rebounds as possible. He has never had a true pg or center on any of his teams and I believe that is by design.

A true center would take too much of the post away from him along with rebounds. He would not have the lane available all the time to drive and kick to the designated 3 pt snipper. A true pg would make most of the plays forcing Lebron into a wing position. If Lebron had a true center and pg on his team, his stat line would look more like 25, 5, 5. and his fg% would shrink as well mainly due to two reasons: The teams could isolate him more on defense as he isn't the one in charge of playmaking, and he would have to shoot more from the outside because a true center would demand more of the post.

Of course having a true center and pg would increase his teams chances of winning, but my guess is that he wants to win his way, with him stuffing and padding his stats. But hey, he has been able to win 3 MVP's and 1 ring playing this way. But IMO, his 3 MVP's have more to do with him stuffing his regular season record in the weak east and his one ring has more to do with the combination of the weak east and him forming a super team who won during a lock out season with many questionable calls from the refs. He was also very lucky that San Antonio got ****ed so hard by the refs against OKC so that he didn't have to face them in the finals again. Guess we can all thank Stern for that one. So yes, Lebron is "The King" alright..."The King of Stat Stuffing".

Ask yourselves this honestly Lebronites...Would Leborn have won 3 MVP's if he was playing in the West??? Not likely. But of course the "non bias" media never takes that into account when casting their votes. Funny how they handicap for everything else, but when if comes to Lebron's regular season wins, they never even bring up the fact that it's much easier to win in the east than in the west. Of course if Kobe was winning a ton of regular season games in the east, I'm sure this would be taken into account. Likewise, both Shaq and Kobe were penalized for playing with each other when it came to MVP voting, yet Lebron was not even though he had 2 superstar teammates as well as a lesser record in a weaker conference.

Look at last year for example, Kevin Durant had less help on his team and he was in a more difficult conference than Lebron. Yet he still was able to lead the league in scoring and his team to a better record than Lebron. Why no MVP for Durant than??? Seems like the rules are constantly changing in favor of "The Chosen One"....aka the one who holds the multi million dollar Nike and Gatorade Deals.

at some point, maybe years down the line, you are going to realize that you blind hatred for LeBron made you miss one of the greatest basketball players of all time. It's a shame really.

Hawkeye15
12-04-2012, 02:57 PM
I will not argue against you on Love having a bad team around him but you criticise Melo for the same exact reasons last couple of seasons.

Melo has never had a bad team around him. His Knicks were depleted, but please, I would kill for Chandler, Amare, Lin, and Novak compared to the crap Love has played with, in the tougher conference. Melo's Denver teams were always talented.

Not even remotely close.

bucketss
12-04-2012, 05:59 PM
at some point, maybe years down the line, you are going to realize that you blind hatred for LeBron made you miss one of the greatest basketball players of all time. It's a shame really.

i use to be the same way about kobe always discrediting him but i let it go i believe when he closed out the suns in 2010.

Sactown
12-04-2012, 06:02 PM
Melo has never had a bad team around him. His Knicks were depleted, but please, I would kill for Chandler, Amare, Lin, and Novak compared to the crap Love has played with, in the tougher conference. Melo's Denver teams were always talented.

Not even remotely close.

Which begs the question, do you believe Love posts less meaningful stats than let's say... Bosh?

Agar81
12-04-2012, 06:21 PM
Stat stuffer is someone who has a well rounded game an is able to contribute to a team in multiple ways. It reflects in the box score. (Someone the opposite of being one-dimensional)

A stat padder someone makes a deliberate effort to tack on something extra (example Rondo passing up shots so that he can get more assists, or someone taking 3's in garbage time or playing one on one or someone close to getting a triple double so they try whatever they can to get it instead of it happening naturally in the flow of the game)


Lol, you're completely wrong. Rondo is probably one of the most unselfish players in the league. Since when is passing the ball to teammates considered stat padding? There are so many stat lines of Rondo's that show that he simply doesn't care about his stats, rather the outcome of the game.

KnickaBocka.44
12-04-2012, 07:00 PM
The fact that this is even a thread worthy conversation makes me question why I even try and have any sort of legitimate conversation/debate with some of the people on this forum.

Hawkeye15
12-04-2012, 07:17 PM
Which begs the question, do you believe Love posts less meaningful stats than let's say... Bosh?

nope.

Hawkeye15
12-04-2012, 07:19 PM
i use to be the same way about kobe always discrediting him but i let it go i believe when he closed out the suns in 2010.

I let my hatred for Kobe stop letting me at least appreciate him in 2007-08'. Now I just look back and realize that I was too pig headed to understand I was watching someone who was a top 10 player ever. I suppose at least I understood it before Kobe was long gone...

amos1er
12-04-2012, 07:27 PM
You know what's funny? LeBron's teams offense have been at their most potent when he was playing running the point. This ideal that he plays the PF on defense is baseless and holds no water whatsoever. He guards whatever position his coach asks him to. He doesn't choose to guard the opposing team's PF because it gets him more rebounds. When he guarded Rose was he playing the PF as well? LeBron was almost exclusively playing the perimeter on D in his Cleveland days you know the days when he put up the best stats of his career.

You bring up his Cleveland days as evidence eh... Now who was competing with him for rebounds again...oh ya a 40 year old big Z who was primarily known as a jump shooting big man.

Funny how everyone who teams up with Lebron sees a significant reduction in their stats. Look it up...it's true. His stats come at the expense of his teammates. Hence the point of this thread...Lebron being a stat stuffer.


I guess I should say the same about Magic and the offense in which he ran because he clearly maximized on his ability on offense and grabbing defensive rebounds didn't he.

Unlike Lebron, Magic could actually play all 5 positions, including center. It's an insult to Magic to compare him to Lebron in anyway. Magic was a clutch winner from day one. His rookie year, he actaully played center for an injured Kareem in the finals and put up 42, 15, and 7 while winning a ring. I love all the talk about how Lebron can play all five positions, yet we never have seen any evidence of it. Magic actually did play center in an extremely important clutch game and he came out a winner. Lebron only recently proved that he can not choke in the finals after 9 seasons in his 3rd finals appearance.


Tell us about this design. You do realize that because of LeBron James Mo Williams had without question the best season of his career becoming an all star in the process right? You do realize that LeBron came to a Cleveland team with Big Z already in the fold and with how thin the C position has been it was almost impossible to find a "True C" right? How many "True Cs" were there that the Cavs could just go out there and put next to LeBron. Expand on this idiotic conspiracy theory of yours.

Mo Williams had a career lows in assists in his two seasons playing aside Lebron compared to his previous 2 in Milwaukee. Williams averaged 6.2 apg in his final two seasons with the Bucks, compared to the 4.6 he averaged along side Lebron in his two seasons with Cleveland. I might want to add that Mo averaged 7.1 apg in 2011 with the Cavs once King Statpadder left. Also, he had career lows in scoring compared to his previous three seasons on the Bucks. In his 3 previous season with the Bucks, Mo averaged 17.3 ppg. In his 2 seasons on the Cavs playing along side Lebron, he averaged 16.8 ppg. Only reason he was an all-star was because he was playing along side James and his hype. Also, team records came into play as well. He put up better individual numbers in Milwaukee.


And with a FG% of over 60 in the low post that C would have the best year of his career in terms of scoring efficiency with LeBron. LeBron in turn would have 2-3 more assists a game with a "True C".

Complete speculation. Lebron just isn't a good enough wing player to benefit from playing alongside a true C. There have been plenty available, why hasn't he made it known that he wants to play along side one? I'll tell you why, he doesn't want to because it would hurt his rebounding numbers. Therefore you will always see Lebron paired up with soft jumpshooting big men for the remainder of his career. Don't even give me that crap about how he played with Shaq, because Shaq was only playing 22 mpg and not able to threaten Lebron's rebounding numbers due to age.


It's funny because not a great deal of LeBron's assists to 3 pointers are as a result of the drive and dish. Let's say they are there is absolutely no reason to believe that a player of LeBron's calibre won't have a lane to the basket on a consistent basis even with a true C in there. You seem to believe all LeBron's drives are just on ISO possessions.

I don't think they all are, I just think thats the basis of the offense he runs and the system player that he is. Again, for him to operate successfully with a true C, he would need to have a stronger perimeter game.


If LeBron had a true C and PG on his team his FG% would sky rocket. The PG would be able to create for him in ways no one else has ever been able to and C would draw a great deal of attention thus allowing him to be doubled much less since he is such a great creator for others. LeBron wouldn't have to shoot more from outside either. Magic played with Norm Nixon and rarely (I mean rarely) shot from the outside. LeBron is still the same player and when he drive no is going to attempt to get in his way.

Can't say for certain, by I doubt it. A true C would take away his post game and make him have to operate further away from the basket. A true pg would make him more of a wing player forcing him to create for himself, which is not a strength of his. He is able go get open looks mainly due to the system he runs which allows him to slash to the basket or kick out for an open 3, and his ability to post up which would be severely minimized by a true big man.


A Kobe fan should be the LAST person on the history of this earth to say something this foolish. Apparently you don't know Kobe Bryant.

Kobe has been able to win rings with truly great big men due to his ability to dominate from the perimeter. Sure Kobe could lobby to have a stat friendly offense so he could put up numbers too, he is just too concerned with winning to mess with that crap. Kobe knows the importance of sacrificing personal glory to win. Lebron just won't give up his style of play for the good of the team. Thats why he got his *** handed to him in 2009, 2010, and 2011.



Wanna talk about luck? Kobe Bryant was extremely lucky to have his wishes granted and be traded to the team that in that very same off season was able to sign the most dominant big man to ever step onto the hardwood. What if LeBron walked onto a team with prime and peaking Shaq? How many titles would he have? I can assure you as well he would not have ran Shaq out of town. He'd realistically have 5+ titles if he had Kobe's luck.

Please, don't even come at me with this hypothetical BS. Would have, should have, could have. Honestly, Lebron would not have done all that great with Shaq due to his lack of ability to dominate from the outside. Shaq just demands too much of the post for Lebron to put up big numbers. Maybe they would have gotten one title (doubt it because Lebron has bungled many opportunities due to his lack of clutch gene), but Lebron would have had lesser ppg and fg%, not to mention less rebounds and assists. Remember all the times that Kobe took over in the 4th quarter when Shaq fouled out or the other team was Hack a Shaqing??? With Lebron's early and mid career choking in the 4th quarter and horrible freethrow shooting, there would have been no one to close games out.

You really think that Kobe ran Shaq out of town??? No fault on Shaq's part I suppose. :rolleyes: Wow...you honestly don't think that ego's like Lebron and Shaq wouldn't have clashed??? Don't think that an old Shaq was even able to get along well with Lebron in Cleveland if I remember correctly. Kobe had some breaks, sure...but he did make the best of them. I guarantee you that Kobe would have owned the Mavs in Lebrons shoes back in 2011. Kobe would not have chocked that hard in the 4th quarter. Put a prime Kobe with Bosh and Wade and that roster with HCA against the Mavs and he wins a title for sure.


So Kevin Durant played with all star Russell Westbrook, 6MOY James Harden, 2nd place DPOY Serge Ibaka and a top 5 perimeter defender in Thabo but he had the stronger team because of two Superstars. By your notion Magic and Larry Bird should have no MVPs right?

lol @ your 2nd place DPOY mention. Didn't know they gave awards for second place. Are you really trying to argue that Durant had more talent than Lebron. Lullz

Come on man...Lebron had the better team in the easier conference and still couldn't win as many games as Durant did. You can't really believe that the MVP voting in the NBA is completely fair.

Don't really understand what Magic and Larry Bird have to do with Durant getting hosed last season in favor of Lebron James "King of Nike and Gatorade Endorsements" .


That's totally subjective. The Heat had a top 5 defense anchored by LeBron James (All D first team) a top 10 offense ran by LeBron James who finished 3rd in scoring by less than a point to KD while getting twice the assists as KD and dominating while his 2nd best player (Dwyane Wade) missed more than a quarter of the season due to injury. To say KD less help when Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Serge Ibaka, Nick Collison and Kendrick Perkins missed a combined 7 games is without a doubt baseless. Bosh alone missed more games last season than those guys, Wade missed twice as much.

The point you have about the missed games is pretty good, but are you really saying that you feel Durant had more talent around him than Lebron??? The Heat just didn't win enough games compared to the Thunder to warrant Lebron winning the MVP IMO. Western Conference is much much harder and the Thunder are less talented than the Heat as well as less experienced. Funny how you bring up Lebron's assists, yet you don't mention KD's rebounds. Also, KD's rebounds and assists are much more impressive to me considering that he actually plays along side a true pg and center. Not to mention that Ibaka is not slouch either. I'm sure that if Lebron played alongside Westbrook (with his high USG%) would not be putting up the same amount of assists or scoring for that matter. With Perkins and Ibaka, Lebron would surely not have the same amount of rebounds either. So while you can use Lebron's stats as a reason to give him MVP over Durant, you still fail to take into account that if he played on the Thunder, he wouldn't have those stats to begin with. Moot point. Sorry, but KD was just more valuable to his team.


Do you see the GAPING holes in your argument.

Not really to be honest.


LeBron was a better player with less help in a weaker conference.

No...Lebron put up better stats due to the structure of his team, the system he plays in, and the lack of a true center and pg in a weaker conference. Putting up fancy stats does not make you the "better player". That is your opinion though and you are entitled to it. I also disagree that Durant had more help. The only good point you made IMO is the missed games of Wade. Still, I don't really feel that tips the scales enough in favor of Lebron considering the weaker teams he faces on a nightly basis. If they were really fair they would set a handicap for the western and eastern conference based on the overall records of the teams. I'm sure they can do this, they just won't as long as their boy Lebron is benefiting.


The only thing you've said in this entire post that made any sense was the fact that LeBron plays in a weaker conference. A fact that cannot be overlooked.

So we both agree that Lebron played in a weaker conference and that Wade missed a significant amount of games compared to the players on the Thunder. Wade missed about 12 games I believe. I don't know for sure, but I wonder what the amount of lottery and sub .500 teams that The Heat face compared to the amount the Thunder face is? Also, I would like to see the average record of the teams the Thunder face compared to what the Heat face.


You ignore the FACTS to fit your agenda. Why take your blinders off and actually open your eyes. You'd start appreciating the game of basketball MUCH more.

Most of these FACTS that you have stated throughout this post are purely speculation. Though I'll admit that most of my original rant was purely speculation as well, but at least I'm not acting like what I'm saying is fact. Though a lot of it was based on fact, like how Lebron has never played with a true C and PG, how Lebron's teammates all have put up career lows when playing along side him, and how Durant had the lesser team in a lesser conference and still had the better record.

el hidalgo
12-05-2012, 01:03 PM
Did i just read that lebron isn't good enough to play with a true C? :laugh2: oh mmy lord, iv heard it all

Money_23
12-05-2012, 02:52 PM
Lebron is a Stat Stuffer and a Stat Padder if I ever saw one. Throughout his career he has been able to milk extra assists and rebounds by playing as a "point forward", meaning he plays a pg on offense to get as many assists as possible, and a power forward on defense to get as many rebounds as possible. He has never had a true pg or center on any of his teams and I believe that is by design.

A true center would take too much of the post away from him along with rebounds. He would not have the lane available all the time to drive and kick to the designated 3 pt snipper. A true pg would make most of the plays forcing Lebron into a wing position. If Lebron had a true center and pg on his team, his stat line would look more like 25, 5, 5. and his fg% would shrink as well mainly due to two reasons: The teams could isolate him more on defense as he isn't the one in charge of playmaking, and he would have to shoot more from the outside because a true center would demand more of the post.

Of course having a true center and pg would increase his teams chances of winning, but my guess is that he wants to win his way, with him stuffing and padding his stats. But hey, he has been able to win 3 MVP's and 1 ring playing this way. But IMO, his 3 MVP's have more to do with him stuffing his regular season record in the weak east and his one ring has more to do with the combination of the weak east and him forming a super team who won during a lock out season with many questionable calls from the refs. He was also very lucky that San Antonio got ****ed so hard by the refs against OKC so that he didn't have to face them in the finals again. Guess we can all thank Stern for that one. So yes, Lebron is "The King" alright..."The King of Stat Stuffing".

Ask yourselves this honestly Lebronites...Would Leborn have won 3 MVP's if he was playing in the West??? Not likely. But of course the "non bias" media never takes that into account when casting their votes. Funny how they handicap for everything else, but when if comes to Lebron's regular season wins, they never even bring up the fact that it's much easier to win in the east than in the west. Of course if Kobe was winning a ton of regular season games in the east, I'm sure this would be taken into account. Likewise, both Shaq and Kobe were penalized for playing with each other when it came to MVP voting, yet Lebron was not even though he had 2 superstar teammates as well as a lesser record in a weaker conference.

Look at last year for example, Kevin Durant had less help on his team and he was in a more difficult conference than Lebron. Yet he still was able to lead the league in scoring and his team to a better record than Lebron. Why no MVP for Durant than??? Seems like the rules are constantly changing in favor of "The Chosen One"....aka the one who holds the multi million dollar Nike and Gatorade Deals.

wow.....

Chronz
12-05-2012, 02:56 PM
Did i just read that lebron isn't good enough to play with a true C? :laugh2: oh mmy lord, iv heard it all

I know right, somehow Shaq was able to open up the game for Wade but for Bron it would be so much different.

I love how he makes statistical projections without a shred of analysis. Truly the work of an amateur

Swashcuff
12-05-2012, 02:57 PM
You bring up his Cleveland days as evidence eh... Now who was competing with him for rebounds again...oh ya a 40 year old big Z who was primarily known as a jump shooting big man.

That same guy who you said LeBron kept back was on those teams wasn't he? What's his name again? Oh yea Anderson Varejao. Big Z wasn't 40 either.


Funny how everyone who teams up with Lebron sees a significant reduction in their stats. Look it up...it's true. His stats come at the expense of his teammates. Hence the point of this thread...Lebron being a stat stuffer.

Learn basketball why don't you. It happens to EVERY star player. That's how it works in team sports. Do you truly not understand that? Look it up.... it's true.



Unlike Lebron, Magic could actually play all 5 positions, including center.

Unlike Magic LeBron could handily guard 5 positions, including C.


It's an insult to Magic to compare him to Lebron in anyway. Magic was a clutch winner from day one. His rookie year, he actaully played center for an injured Kareem in the finals and put up 42, 15, and 7 while winning a ring.

Fact is Magic came into an organization that was already set. He was a more mature player than LeBron and already had HOF help. LeBron in his younger days NEVER had that. He did however put on one of the greatest playoff performances ever against a stud defensive Piston team.


I love all the talk about how Lebron can play all five positions, yet we never have seen any evidence of it.

There is two sides to the basketball floor. LeBron has guarded every single position in his career and played every single position on offense.


Magic actually did play center in an extremely important clutch game and he came out a winner. Lebron only recently proved that he can not choke in the finals after 9 seasons in his 3rd finals appearance.

Only someone who has no knowledge of basketball can say that LeBron was a choker in his first 9 years.


Mo Williams had a career lows in assists in his two seasons playing aside Lebron compared to his previous 2 in Milwaukee. Williams averaged 6.2 apg in his final two seasons with the Bucks, compared to the 4.6 he averaged along side Lebron in his two seasons with Cleveland. I might want to add that Mo averaged 7.1 apg in 2011 with the Cavs once King Statpadder left. Also, he had career lows in scoring compared to his previous three seasons on the Bucks. In his 3 previous season with the Bucks, Mo averaged 17.3 ppg. In his 2 seasons on the Cavs playing along side Lebron, he averaged 16.8 ppg. Only reason he was an all-star was because he was playing along side James and his hype. Also, team records came into play as well. He put up better individual numbers in Milwaukee.

So wait a minute the only stat that is relevant now is assists? :laugh2: Mo Williams had his most valuable and best years as an individual playing alongside LeBron James. He had his highest TS% by some ways, more WS, highest PER, etc etc etc Only an idiot would allude that Mo Will wasn't at his best when playing alongside James and despite how much he may dislike LeBron now he would admit that when he played with LeBron he was a better player than he ever has been. He was an all star that season because he played more deserving of that calling than ever before. Do you think if he averaged 13 and 7 with LeBron on MUCH poorer shooting he'd be an all star? HELL NO.


Complete speculation. Lebron just isn't a good enough wing player to benefit from playing alongside a true C.

Pot meet kettle :laugh2:


There have been plenty available, why hasn't he made it known that he wants to play along side one?

Name them.


I'll tell you why, he doesn't want to because it would hurt his rebounding numbers. Therefore you will always see Lebron paired up with soft jumpshooting big men for the remainder of his career. Don't even give me that crap about how he played with Shaq, because Shaq was only playing 22 mpg and not able to threaten Lebron's rebounding numbers due to age.

You must live inside LeBron James' brain to know all this.


I don't think they all are, I just think thats the basis of the offense he runs and the system player that he is. Again, for him to operate successfully with a true C, he would need to have a stronger perimeter game.

Stronger perimeter game? He currently is having his best shooting season ever from the perimeter and that is something that has only improved as his career has progressed. Having a strong inside presence to draw the attention away from him is only going to make his job on the perimeter WAY easier especially given the fact that opponents will be wary of his height coupled with his playmaking ability.


Can't say for certain, by I doubt it. A true C would take away his post game and make him have to operate further away from the basket. A true pg would make him more of a wing player forcing him to create for himself, which is not a strength of his. He is able go get open looks mainly due to the system he runs which allows him to slash to the basket or kick out for an open 3, and his ability to post up which would be severely minimized by a true big man.

You clearly clearly clearly don't understand the impact of a pass first PG and a low post big man on offense. You CLEARLY don't understand how good a player LeBron is on the perimeter and you clearly don't watch LeBron James play at all. I already stated why LeBron's job would be made easier.

Did a true C take away Kobe's post game? LeBron's post efficiency is better than that of Kobe's and his passing ability is twice as good when you consider the vision he displays. LeBron is effective in the low high and mid post having a true C does not cut out his post game in the very least.


Kobe has been able to win rings with truly great big men due to his ability to dominate from the perimeter. Sure Kobe could lobby to have a stat friendly offense so he could put up numbers too, he is just too concerned with winning to mess with that crap. Kobe knows the importance of sacrificing personal glory to win. Lebron just won't give up his style of play for the good of the team. Thats why he got his *** handed to him in 2009, 2010, and 2011.

Cool story. Now back to the discussion. You said LeBron wants things his way. Kobe is more known for that than maybe any other star in the history of the NBA.

You just said Kobe understands the meaning of sacrificing personal glory to win :laugh2:

I swear if I told you how I really feel about your absolute idiotic posts I'd be banned. You GOT to be trolling me right now. Seriously dude are you it blows my mind than any single person could be THIS idiotic in their attempted assessment of two players.



Please, don't even come at me with this hypothetical BS.

That's ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL you've been saying this entire thread. Hypothetical instances where you believe LeBron will not be good.


Would have, should have, could have.

EXACTLY what you've been saying all along.


Honestly, Lebron would not have done all that great with Shaq due to his lack of ability to dominate from the outside.

http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/837-LeBron-James/season/2010-2011-REG

http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/875-Kobe-Bryant/season/2010-2011-REG

Who did you say couldn't dominate on the perimeter?



Shaq just demands too much of the post for Lebron to put up big numbers. Maybe they would have gotten one title (doubt it because Lebron has bungled many opportunities due to his lack of clutch gene), but Lebron would have had lesser ppg and fg%, not to mention less rebounds and assists. Remember all the times that Kobe took over in the 4th quarter when Shaq fouled out or the other team was Hack a Shaqing??? With Lebron's early and mid career choking in the 4th quarter and horrible freethrow shooting, there would have been no one to close games out.

I feel sorry for you.


You really think that Kobe ran Shaq out of town??

Shaq essentially said so himself on more occasions than not. But hey let's not worry about what Shaq says he has no idea as to why he got ran out of town.


No fault on Shaq's part I suppose. :rolleyes: Wow...you honestly don't think that ego's like Lebron and Shaq wouldn't have clashed??? Don't think that an old Shaq was even able to get along well with Lebron in Cleveland if I remember correctly. Kobe had some breaks, sure...but he did make the best of them. I guarantee you that Kobe would have owned the Mavs in Lebrons shoes back in 2011.

Just like he owned the Pistons in 04 right? :laugh2:



Kobe would not have chocked that hard in the 4th quarter. Put a prime Kobe with Bosh and Wade and that roster with HCA against the Mavs and he wins a title for sure.

Last time Kobe had 2 all stars on his team he choked out of the post season on both occasions.


lol @ your 2nd place DPOY mention. Didn't know they gave awards for second place. Are you really trying to argue that Durant had more talent than Lebron. Lullz

He was 2nd place in DPOY voting so it clearly meaned that he was a great defensive player. Better than any defensive player LeBron played with.


Come on man...Lebron had the better team in the easier conference and still couldn't win as many games as Durant did. You can't really believe that the MVP voting in the NBA is completely fair.

Do you know ANYTHING about context? Good God.


Don't really understand what Magic and Larry Bird have to do with Durant getting hosed last season in favor of Lebron James "King of Nike and Gatorade Endorsements" .

That's because you don't know jack **** about basketball. What's good for the goose gotta be good for the gander. Apply your idiotic logic to other circumstances and you'd see VAST differences in the history of the NBA.


The point you have about the missed games is pretty good, but are you really saying that you feel Durant had more talent around him than Lebron???

If I ranked the top 9 players on those two teams last regular of those players would be members of the Thunder.

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Wade
4. Westrbook
5. Bosh
6. Harden
7. Serge
8. Thabo
9. Collison
10. Battier/Chalmers

KD had a better cast around him on a whole and most importantly they were healthy. No wonder they were able to win as many games as they did.


The Heat just didn't win enough games compared to the Thunder to warrant Lebron winning the MVP IMO.

And we've already established that once your opinion has to do with anything about the game of basketball its utterly useless. the Thunder won ONE MORE GAME than the Heat what the hell are you talking about games? It's 1 more win in a shortened season where the Thunder didn't have to deal with half the amount of injury issues the Heat did. No Mike Miller for half the season, injured Wade AND Bosh etc Did the Thunder face that type of adversity.


Western Conference is much much harder and the Thunder are less talented than the Heat as well as less experienced.

This isn't the early 00s the East is catching up so that's a clear overstatement. You know what experienced teams do? They turn it up a notch when the post season comes around. We've seen it from the Celts, the Spurs, the Lakers and now we're seeing it from the Heat.


Funny how you bring up Lebron's assists, yet you don't mention KD's rebounds. Also, KD's rebounds and assists are much more impressive to me considering that he actually plays along side a true pg and center.

First person I have EVER seen call Russell Westbrook a true PG. Russell Westbrook doesn't even think he's a true PG :laugh2:

Kendrick Perkins is an ever worse rebounder than Zyrundas Illgauskas what the hell are you talking about? Bosh is a better rebounder than Perkins and so is Haslem.


Not to mention that Ibaka is not slouch either.

No slouch? So is Chris Bosh and Haslem who are better rebounders.


I'm sure that if Lebron played alongside Westbrook (with his high USG%) would not be putting up the same amount of assists or scoring for that matter.

I'm sure that he would. I'm quite sure he'd even be better for that matter. Westbrook's strength is his scoring not his passing he'd maximize on that next to LeBron.


With Perkins and Ibaka, Lebron would surely not have the same amount of rebounds either.

LeBron play with Haslem and Bosh. They get you more rebounds a game than Ibaka and Perk. TRY AGAIN!


So while you can use Lebron's stats as a reason to give him MVP over Durant, you still fail to take into account that if he played on the Thunder, he wouldn't have those stats to begin with. Moot point. Sorry, but KD was just more valuable to his team.

Cool story.

Still refused to address the facts. The Heat were a top team on both ends of the floor with LeBron being their best player on both ends of the floor.


Not really to be honest.

Of course you won't you really don't have a clue of how to accurately assess any player.


No...Lebron put up better stats due to the structure of his team, the system he plays in, and the lack of a true center and pg in a weaker conference.

What about the structure of Durant's teams?

Serious question who is a better player? Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Kobe Byrant rank them in order last season. You'd NEVER answer this question though.


Putting up fancy stats does not make you the "better player".

He didn't need to. He was better defensively, better offensively a better leader, greater intangible worth etc. KD thinks LeBron is the better player as well and is now trying to be more like him in order to get on his level.


That is your opinion though and you are entitled to it. I also disagree that Durant had more help. The only good point you made IMO is the missed games of Wade. Still, I don't really feel that tips the scales enough in favor of Lebron considering the weaker teams he faces on a nightly basis. If they were really fair they would set a handicap for the western and eastern conference based on the overall records of the teams. I'm sure they can do this, they just won't as long as their boy Lebron is benefiting.

LeBron's best players missed twice as many as KD but that doesn't tip the scale since well LeBron plays in a different conference :laugh2:

GREAT argument.


So we both agree that Lebron played in a weaker conference and that Wade missed a significant amount of games compared to the players on the Thunder. Wade missed about 12 games I believe. I don't know for sure, but I wonder what the amount of lottery and sub .500 teams that The Heat face compared to the amount the Thunder face is? Also, I would like to see the average record of the teams the Thunder face compared to what the Heat face.

Do your research instead of spewing ignorance then.


Most of these FACTS that you have stated throughout this post are purely speculation.

Sure like you speculated LeBron will average 25, 5 and 5, or that he would suffer from playing with Westbrook, or that he would most likely not win a single title with prime Shaq etc. You never speculated anything.


Though I'll admit that most of my original rant was purely speculation as well, but at least I'm not acting like what I'm saying is fact. Though a lot of it was based on fact, like how Lebron has never played with a true C and PG, how Lebron's teammates all have put up career lows when playing along side him, and how Durant had the lesser team in a lesser conference and still had the better record.

:laugh2:

You are stating it as if its fact. LeBron's teammates put up career lows when playing alongside him in stats but career highs in wins :laugh2: Isn't that the ultimate purpose? To win? When players sacrifice their numbers for the good of the team what do they do? Harden put up career low numbers with KD and so is Kevin Martin according to your trend of thought. Pau has with Kobe and now is Dwight again according to your trend of thought. Dennis Rodman with MJ as well as Ron Harper against according to your misguided, ill informed baselessly ignorant trend of thought if we can even call it that.

Why don't you just come out and say I hate LeBron James and no matter how much I try to discredit his ability I can't I just want to continue spraying garbage onto the forums of PSD until someone somewhere can agree with my foolishness.

Swashcuff
12-05-2012, 03:02 PM
I know right, somehow Shaq was able to open up the game for Wade but for Bron it would be so much different.

I love how he makes statistical projections without a shred of analysis. Truly the work of an amateur

Please don't besmirch the name amateur by comparing him to one. I myself was once an amateur I never said **** as idiotic as that. That's the work of an ignoramus.

koreancabbage
12-05-2012, 03:58 PM
stat stuff is a person who does everything on the floor for the team

stat padder is a person who usually does things on the floor that is not necessarily great for the team and really necessary. i.e. Blatche and McGee examples during their times in Washington trying to find their triple doubles.

Andrew32
12-05-2012, 04:10 PM
A "Stat Padder" is someone who cares about their individual stats.
Usually these type of players are very introverted and only care about themselves.

A "Stat Padder" is someone who will choose to play a certain way (because it benefits their stats) even if taking a different role would increase the successfulness of their team.

Sometimes they may cover up the fact that they are padders by claiming to only care about winning but in reality the only reason they want to win is because it will enhance their individual legacy's.

No one should bring up Lebron.
His Cleveland teams were highly dependant on him to score and create offense for others.

In many years he simply didn't have anyone at his side that could reliably create for themselves.

Look at him this year.
He has cut back on his volume and allowed guys like Bosh and Allen to take bigger offensive roles.

mngopher35
12-05-2012, 05:01 PM
wow, I cant believe that you actually feel that way amos. Do you truly believe everything your writing about Lebron?

Chronz
12-05-2012, 05:36 PM
That same guy who you said LeBron kept back was on those teams wasn't he? What's his name again? Oh yea Anderson Varejao. Big Z wasn't 40 either.
Could you ask him what jumpshooting has to do with defensive rebounding? Or why he thinks that Bron never wanted to pursue guys at those positions. Remember when he recruited Jason Kidd?