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JasonJohnHorn
12-01-2012, 07:45 PM
Ok, we all know the Spurs have been issued a fine by Stern, and we all know, regardless of whether we agree or disagree with what Pop did that he did not violate any written rule and that the fine was in turn excessive. But there is a history of the Spurs being subjected to Stern. Yahoo Sports just posted this great article.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--david-stern-stumbles-again-in-his-failed-culture-war-against-the-spurs-194828970.html


I know many of us feel that Stern favours big maret and exciting teams, and there are many out there who believe that Stern is the next best thing to Vince McMahon, and that teams likes the Spurs and Pistons have endured harsh treatment by the officials while more 'exciting' teams have gotten many calls their way. Whether we suspect it, or believe it, there does seem to be a double-standard with how Stern treats some teams and this article pulls out a few interesting facts (notable NY's illegal draft work outs that resulted in only a small fine where other teams would have likely lost draft pics... just ask Minny about how quick the league is to take draft picks away from a small-market team when they feel the rules are being bent).

Anyways... just thought I would share. Stern has done a lot for the league, but I personally can't wait until he's gone.

I included a poll on here just to get the general concensus on the fine.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 07:47 PM
Where is the strawman option at? Severely disappointed by this poll.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 07:48 PM
They had every right to sit their players.

Stern shouldn't have fined them, but he did to prevent the same thing from happening in the future.

JasonJohnHorn
12-01-2012, 08:21 PM
Where is the strawman option at? Severely disappointed by this poll.

I think the options are fair. I think even fans who believe the Spurs had a right to sit their players would still have a problem with them doing so. There are Spurs and Heat fans in Miami who will miss out on a chance to see three of the best players in the game play. Likewise, I think those who support what Stern's fine do so under the pretence the the Spurs violated the 'spirit of the game' even if there isn't a written rule against sitting players. I'm not putting one option up to fail against the other, and the poll doesn't suggest that one supports the article assertion that Stern is against the Spurs in general. It only speaks to this specific fine.

lakers4sho
12-01-2012, 08:23 PM
Pop as a coach can do whatever the hell he wants for the team.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 08:31 PM
I think the options are fair. I think even fans who believe the Spurs had a right to sit their players would still have a problem with them doing so. There are Spurs and Heat fans in Miami who will miss out on a chance to see three of the best players in the game play. Likewise, I think those who support what Stern's fine do so under the pretence the the Spurs violated the 'spirit of the game' even if there isn't a written rule against sitting players. I'm not putting one option up to fail against the other, and the poll doesn't suggest that one supports the article assertion that Stern is against the Spurs in general. It only speaks to this specific fine.

I think you missed the joke.

Bruno
12-01-2012, 08:35 PM
80%+ of the public agrees that it was the wrong decision.

this is not about the fans, it's about money.

Ebbs
12-01-2012, 08:35 PM
Yea I'll be the minority again.

Cal827
12-01-2012, 08:35 PM
Absolutely for the Spurs here. A team should be allowed to rest their players if they feel that they are needed for more important games.

For example, the end of last season. What if Miami played the Big three and Wade fell over Lebron and one of them ended up tearing their ACL? You are supposed to put yourself in the best position to win every game.

Why don't we start fining teams that are trying to tank and improve their lottery spot. For example, the Nets and Raptors played a game last year where Solomon Alabi was a starter, and Deshawn Stevenson was the starting PF! :facepalm:

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 08:37 PM
Absolutely for the Spurs here. A team should be allowed to rest their players if they feel that they are needed for more important games.

For example, the end of last season. What if Miami played the Big three and Wade fell over Lebron and one of them ended up tearing their ACL? You are supposed to put yourself in the best position to win every game.

Why don't we start fining teams that are trying to tank and improve their lottery spot. For example, the Nets and Raptors played a game last year where Solomon Alabi was a starter, and Deshawn Stevenson was the starting PF! :facepalm:

Except Stern's reasoning was that Spurs sat them early in the season knowing there was a lot more weight in this game than other games from a financial standpoint. Stern said he would understand if it was near the end of the year.

gaughan333
12-01-2012, 08:40 PM
Except Stern's reasoning was that Spurs sat them early in the season knowing there was a lot more weight in this game than other games from a financial standpoint. Stern said he would understand if it was near the end of the year.

That is Stern saying he cares more about ratings and profit than about the game of basketball and the health of the players.

Cal827
12-01-2012, 08:45 PM
Except Stern's reasoning was that Spurs sat them early in the season knowing there was a lot more weight in this game than other games from a financial standpoint. Stern said he would understand if it was near the end of the year.

I can't really understand that point. did it really affect anything from that point significantly? Peoples still wanted to see this game. Miami has two fan favorite players in Lebron/Wade. People who love that team to death or hate that team still want to watch it to see how much the Heat could beat the Spurs or to see if San Antonio would embarrass them even without their top players. A fan neutral to both teams would tune in to see how a great Coach adjusts.

I guess it might be just me, but I don't see how a team (who gets commented on for playing boring basketball even with their best players) not having those "boring" players in the game could affect it too much, especially against a team like the Heat, who have two of the 5 most exciting players in the game.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 08:48 PM
That is Stern saying he cares more about ratings and profit than about the game of basketball and the health of the players.

Obviously. Didn't take a genius to figure that out.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 08:49 PM
I can understand that point. But the thing is though, did it really affect anything from that point significantly? Peoples still wanted to see this game. Miami has two fan favorite players in Lebron/Wade. People who love that team to death or hate that team still want to watch it to see how much the Heat could beat the Spurs or to see if San Antonio would embarrass them even without their top players. A fan neutral to both teams would tune in to see how a great Coach adjusts.

I guess it might be just me, but I don't see how a team (who gets commented on for playing boring basketball even with their best players) not having those "boring" players in the game could affect it too much, especially against a team like the Heat, who have two of the 5 most exciting players in the game.

He did it to prevent it from happening in the future. If that happened on a consistent basis, the NBA could lose money over it.


BTW, the Spurs aren't boring. They are a fast paced, exciting team.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 08:51 PM
Except this has been going on for years and it has not hurt them financially.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 08:52 PM
Except this has been going on for years and it has not hurt them financially.

Give me 10 games where teams have sat out all their star players within the first 30 games of the season.

Bruno
12-01-2012, 08:58 PM
96,000 votes on ESPN-NBA:

81% say the sanctions were too harsh.
12% say its about right.
7% say it's too lenient.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 09:01 PM
Give me 10 games where teams have sat out all their star players within the first 30 games of the season.

He did this plenty of times last year as well. Listing Duncan as old.

And, as for the find ten games, I am not going to look because most of the games were people rest, they are lying about injuries.


Happens in baseball all the time, and baseball is much less grueling and high stress. Spurs were given a baseball like schedule in there last five days. And that means a lot more than in baseball because that means they were traveling more.

Sportfan
12-01-2012, 09:08 PM
I would have given them a clear warning first but I understand why Stern is against this

Would you guys be ok with a team like the wizards purposely putting out their worst players to get a high draft pick?

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 09:09 PM
He did this plenty of times last year as well. Listing Duncan as old.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/215/year/2012/tim-duncan

So which of these games he missed can you compare to this Heat game?

Duncan missed 1 game this season for the sole reason of rest (he wasn't injured at all). Duncan last year missed a large chunk in the beginning of the seasons from injuries.

Also, none of the games he missed last year had as much impact on the NBA as this game.


And, as for the find ten games, I am not going to look because most of the games were people rest, they are lying about injuries.

Or many because it doesn't happen as often as you say. When stars sit, it's not in a game that has a great impact on the NBA that's not so early in the season.


Happens in baseball all the time, and baseball is much less grueling and high stress. Spurs were given a baseball like schedule in there last five days. And that means a lot more than in baseball because that means they were traveling more.

Don't care for the baseball comparison.

Like I said, he fined them improperly. But he did it to prevent it from happening in the future.

gaughan333
12-01-2012, 09:15 PM
if you don't want a team sitting their players, don't schedule that many games that close

gaughan333
12-01-2012, 09:17 PM
Obviously. Didn't take a genius to figure that out.

And this is ok with you? This is a joke. NBA = WWE

JasonJohnHorn
12-01-2012, 09:18 PM
I would have given them a clear warning first but I understand why Stern is against this

Would you guys be ok with a team like the wizards purposely putting out their worst players to get a high draft pick?

I agree with you. As a fan I know that last season when I got tickets to see the Spurs in Detroit, I would have been VERY upset had those guys not played. I see what Stern took issue with it. My biggest problem isn't that Stern fined them, it's that he fined them with no precedent. If he had simply come out and said: "On behalf of the fans this is not acceptable and for now on there will be fines levied against teams who do this." I would have been fine with this. But as it stands, there was no rule preventing this from happening. So fining them, when other teams have rested players, seems harsh.


As a player, I believe I would have refused the day off. I would have wanted to play against the Heat because they are the defending champions and I would want to test myself. But that said, I also don't know what the NBA schedule is like and these guys may very well not only deserve a day off, but NEED a day off.

Last season the T-Wolves and the Cavs both shut down Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving respectviely because their seasons were essentially over. They would not be getting into the post-season and playing either of them over the last ten games would have made little sense for the respective franchises. But what about the fans? Wouldn't you as a fan want to get a chance to watch Kevin Love post a 20/20 game? Or see Kyrie go off for 30 points?


It is a slippery slope. I think what Stern did is only for show. Teams will just list a player as day-to-day, or suggest that a player they want to rest is out with 'flu like symptoms". And at the end of the season, fans will still be let down as they will miss out on getting to see their favorite players play.

Sssmush
12-01-2012, 09:25 PM
If Stern was a coach, his team might go 200 years without getting anywhere near a title. I'm surprised that 2 out of 25 vote for him, those are probably just people acting contrary

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 09:30 PM
Stern was out of line and his area of influence.

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 09:34 PM
Give me 10 games where teams have sat out all their star players within the first 30 games of the season.

I don't think it's necessary to. Early, late, what difference does it make? Aren't they all supposed to be worth the same?

Stern's actions show bias. The all sport should be free of it. That's why refs are impartial, that's why rules are in place. By saying you guys deserve to be fined where other don't is giving a double standard. It hurts the credibility of the league and the game itself. It needs to stop.

Mr.Nate30
12-01-2012, 09:35 PM
Pop and spurs discussing possible appeal

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 09:40 PM
And this is ok with you? This is a joke. NBA = WWE

Did I say I was okay with it?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
12-01-2012, 09:41 PM
Has anyone seen this (http://nesn.com/2012/12/tim-duncan-tony-parker-pose-with-guns-to-head-of-joey-crawford-on-halloween-photo/) yet?

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 09:41 PM
I don't think it's necessary to. Early, late, what difference does it make? Aren't they all supposed to be worth the same?

Stern's actions show bias. The all sport should be free of it. That's why refs are impartial, that's why rules are in place. By saying you guys deserve to be fined where other don't is giving a double standard. It hurts the credibility of the league and the game itself. It needs to stop.

It kinda does have difference. People expect teams to rest star players at the end of the season. Most expect stars to play in the beginning.

He tried to set the culture that he thought was best for the NBA.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 09:43 PM
Pop and spurs discussing possible appeal

Good. They'll probably win.

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 09:48 PM
It kinda does have difference. People expect teams to rest star players at the end of the season. Most expect stars to play in the beginning.

He tried to set the culture that he thought was best for the NBA.

It doesn't, that's my point. The each regular season game counts the same statistically from beginning to season to the end.

Besides, the ticket prices don't change in the last 5 games of the season....

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 09:49 PM
How is this setting a culture? Pop was doing this to win more games later on. Stern was doing this financially.

I much prefer Pop's culture.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 09:53 PM
It doesn't, that's my point. The each regular season game counts the same statistically from beginning to season to the end.

Besides, the ticket prices don't change in the last 5 games of the season....

It does has some differentiation. You just don't want to see it that way.

JasonJohnHorn
12-01-2012, 09:53 PM
Has anyone seen this (http://nesn.com/2012/12/tim-duncan-tony-parker-pose-with-guns-to-head-of-joey-crawford-on-halloween-photo/) yet?

I think this one is thread worthy! You should post it.


Seems very much out of character for Duncan (and Parker for that matter).

That said, Crawdford is awful.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 09:55 PM
How is this setting a culture? Pop was doing this to win more games later on. Stern was doing this financially.

I much prefer Pop's culture.

You said it yourself.

He's setting a culture for financial benefit (as well as the culture of entertaining the fans). Stern wants the league to get money. Sitting your players out during important games doesn't exactly equate to money if it happens in a consistent basis. Imagine sitting someone out Christmas day for rest. That would piss sponsors and fans off.

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 09:56 PM
Has anyone seen this (http://nesn.com/2012/12/tim-duncan-tony-parker-pose-with-guns-to-head-of-joey-crawford-on-halloween-photo/) yet?

wow, this whole situation has the makings of a scandal.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 09:56 PM
Yes, but it won't maximize profits when an injury occurs from playing too much.

Six times more likely to be injured on that kind of a stretch.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 09:58 PM
Yes, but it won't maximize profits when an injury occurs from playing too much.

Six times more likely to be injured on that kind of a stretch.

I never said he couldn't sit out his players. I understand if he wants to sit guys out to prevent injuries. But when you know this game has a large magnitude, at least warn them in advance, especially when you made your decision before the season started that they wouldn't play.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:00 PM
That doesn't help Pop win. And the CBA says he can strategically rest players. There is no reason why he should tell or have to tell.

SLY WILLIAMS
12-01-2012, 10:00 PM
Some dads can barely afford to take their kids to 1 game a year. When I pick a game to watch who the opponent is plays a huge role in what tickets I would buy. The star players and best teams are obviously going to be much more valued games than the Cavaliers or Wizards. It used to be near impossible to get tickets to see the Knicks play Jordan. I would feel really bad for a family that can barely afford to go to a game to show up to find out the other team decided not to play their real team. If this was 1 player late in the season or sitting players in various games it might be different but sitting 4 of your 5 starters without injury on the same night? That is going way too far. People that paid to see the Heat play the Spurs got ripped off. Stern did the right thing. If Lebron and other star players were told they would not have to make the trip to SA Peter Holt would freak out.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:01 PM
Some dads can barely afford to take their kids to 1 game a year. When I pick a game to watch who the opponent is plays a huge role in what tickets I would buy. The best players and teams are obviously going to be much more valued games than the Cavaliers or Wizards. I would feel really bad for a family that can barely afford to go to a game to show up to find out the other team decided not to play their real team. If this was 1 player late in the season or sitting players in various games it might be different but sitting 4 of your 5 starters without injury on the same night? That is going way too far. People that paid to see the Heat play the Spurs got ripped off. Stern did the right thing. If Lebron and other star players were told they would not have to make the trip to SA Peter Holt would freak out.

The entitlement in this thread is baffling.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:02 PM
That doesn't help Pop win. And the CBA says he can strategically rest players. There is no reason why he should tell or have to tell.

Doesn't help Pops win when he sits his best players against one of the best teams to begin with. He doesn't have to tell them, but clearly there's something on the line for the NBA Pops should be aware of.

Either way, Stern is changing the rules. Nothing we can do. No point of debating about it.

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 10:03 PM
It does has some differentiation. You just don't want to see it that way.

it doesn't. As a fan of what is marketed as the best league in the world, I expect the entertainment of the best players in the world play. I pay the same ticket price as everyone else, I expect the same value out of that ticket. If a team decides to pull it's players, then I feel ripped off. What difference does it make what point of the season that is?

The fact of the matter is we as fans already know teams do this. We've accepted it as practice. Therefore, in all fairness of the league, we get no policing of it, nor should there be any. To suddenly hand out sanctions without precedent shows favoritism. Favoritism is bad. It kills sport. If what Stern is doing becomes practice [and some may even say it already has], then the league has no credibility.

I love basketball. More than I love my favorite player, more than my hometown team. This is why I'm so outraged at the league these days, these kinds of scandals damage the game to the point where I can't love it anymore.

SLY WILLIAMS
12-01-2012, 10:04 PM
The entitlement in this thread is baffling.

Its not entitlement. Fans paid to see the Heat play the Spurs with the warranted expectation that it would be the actual healthy Spurs not the Spurs reserves. The fans who paid for those tickets were ripped off. Would you pay the same price for a CBA game? They paid for the Spurs and got the Spurs backups.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:07 PM
Its not entitlement. Fans paid to see the Heat play the Spurs with the warranted expectation that it would be the actual healthy Spurs not the Spurs reserves. The fans who paid for those tickets were ripped off. Would you pay the same price for a CBA game? They paid for the Spurs and got the Spurs backups.

Ask a Heat fan if he feels ripped off.

Now ask a Spurs fan if they disapprove of these actions.

I know this may sound crazy to you, but neither care. In fact, spurs fans would prefer a title then a November win.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:08 PM
it doesn't. As a fan of what is marketed as the best league in the world, I expect the entertainment of the best players in the world play. I pay the same ticket price as everyone else, I expect the same value out of that ticket. If a team decides to pull it's players, then I feel ripped off. What difference does it make what point of the season that is?

For people with common sense, they would probably expect teams to rest their players at the end of the year than in the beginning of the year. Don't know why you bring ticket prices when it doesn't have any bearing.


The fact of the matter is we as fans already know teams do this. We've accepted it as practice. Therefore, in all fairness of the league, we get no policing of it, nor should there be any. To suddenly hand out sanctions without precedent shows favoritism. Favoritism is bad. It kills sport. If what Stern is doing becomes practice [and some may even say it already has], then the league has no credibility.

What favouritism?

Who's he favouring over the Spurs? Stern, by laying down the fine, is sending a message to everyone else. He did this for the NBA, not for a specific team.


I love basketball. More than I love my favorite player, more than my hometown team. This is why I'm so outraged at the league these days, these kinds of scandals damage the game to the point where I can't love it anymore.

Then don't love it.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:08 PM
Doesn't help Pops win when he sits his best players against one of the best teams to begin with. He doesn't have to tell them, but clearly there's something on the line for the NBA Pops should be aware of.

Either way, Stern is changing the rules. Nothing we can do. No point of debating about it.

And yes it does, players play less well fatigued. A more rested teams will help you improve the winning percentage vs other teams. It does in fact help. Pop does not have to be aware of it, that's not his job. His job is to win titles.

We can debate the principle of it.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:09 PM
Ask a Heat fan if he feels ripped off.

Now ask a Spurs fan if they disapprove of these actions.

I know this may sound crazy to you, but neither care. In fact, spurs fans would prefer a title then a November win.

There are actually some Heat fans and Spurs fans disappointed.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:10 PM
There are actually some Heat fans and Spurs fans disappointed.

Vast, vast majority aren't.

And rules should never be dictated on feelings.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:12 PM
Vast, vast majority aren't.

And rules should never be dictated on feelings.

Rules/law are made since they are thought to be for the betterment. Stern did this for the betterment of the NBA.

SLY WILLIAMS
12-01-2012, 10:14 PM
Ask a Heat fan if he feels ripped off.

Now ask a Spurs fan if they disapprove of these actions.

I know this may sound crazy to you, but neither care. In fact, spurs fans would prefer a title then a November win.

I dont have the ability to ask 18000 fans in attendance. If I paid $500 for my family to see the Knicks play Jordan, Pippen and Rodman and Phil Jackson say not tonight when they are healthy I would feel really ripped off. Kids will feel even more disappointed in missing star players. Most Spurs fans were not effected because it was a road game but a Spurs fan living in Florida who bought a ticket for the 1 time a year he could see his Spurs would be pissed especially if he has kids that are Spurs fans. The bottom line is it is a ripoff. People bought tickets expecting the heat vs the Spurs not the Spurs reserves.When you go to buy tickets to a game what team (and star players) they are playing doesnt matter to you? If that is the case my guess is you are in the minority of ticket buyers.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:15 PM
Rules/law are made since they are thought to be for the betterment. Stern did this for the betterment of the NBA.

This isn't for the betterment of the NBA because it doesn't improve anything.

If the rule did affect how things were done, more injuries would occur (not good for the NBA), but what will actually happen is coaches like pop will lie about injuries and the same problem with sponsors will occur.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:16 PM
I dont have the ability to ask 18000 fans in attendance. If I paid $500 for my family to see the Knicks play Jordan, Pippen and Rodman and Phil Jackson say not tonight when they are healthy I would feel really ripped off. Kids will feel even more disappointed in missing star players. Most Spurs fans were not effected because it was a road game but a Spurs fan living in Florida who bought a ticket for the 1 time a year he could see his Spurs would be pissed especially if he has kids that are Spurs fans. The bottom line is it is a ripoff. People bought tickets expecting the heat vs the Spurs not the Spurs reserves.When you go to buy tickets to a game what team (and star players) they are playing doesnt matter to you? If that is the case my guess is you are in the minority of ticket buyers.

Let their fan pages speak for them then, you know where their fans post? The polls are pretty indicative of what the vast majority of fans think. It's not a ripoff, especially considering how competitive the game was.

Secondly, the ticket prices of those games would not have fluctuated based on injury reports.

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 10:16 PM
For people with common sense, they would probably expect teams to rest their players at the end of the year than in the beginning of the year. Don't know why you bring ticket prices when it doesn't have any bearing.

For people with common sense, they would probably see why it's a good idea to rest players on their 5th game in 7 nights with a homestand against a divisional rival coming up next.



What favouritism?

Who's he favouring over the Spurs? Stern, by laying down the fine, is sending a message to everyone else. He did this for the NBA, not for a specific team.

favoritism works both ways. You can be in favor of anyone except the spurs by penalizing them where others have never been given the same treatment.




Then don't love it.

I'm beginning to not, trust me...

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:17 PM
This isn't for the betterment of the NBA because it doesn't improve anything.

If the rule did affect how things were done, more injuries would occur (not good for the NBA), but what will actually happen is coaches like pop will lie about injuries and the same problem with sponsors will occur.

Yea it does. It helps the NBA prevent future situations like this where there is of great magnitude in the game.

SLY WILLIAMS
12-01-2012, 10:19 PM
Let their fan pages speak for them then, you know where their fans post? The polls are pretty indicative of what the vast majority of fans think. It's not a ripoff, especially considering how competitive the game was.

Secondly, the ticket prices of those games would not have fluctuated based on injury reports.

My guess is I speak to a lot more Spurs fans then most the people on PSD. If you dont mind paying for something and not getting it that is your choice but it is not right or fair.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:19 PM
For people with common sense, they would probably see why it's a good idea to rest players on their 5th game in 7 nights with a homestand against a divisional rival coming up next..

I'm sure people understand that. People also understand teams should at least give warning (which is what Stern wanted), considering this was a game that had great magnitude.



favoritism works both ways. You can be in favor of anyone except the spurs by penalizing them where others have never been given the same treatment..

He made his decision for the NBA. He wasn't biased against the Spurs or he wasn't biased for anyone else in the league. He did it for the league.




I'm beginning to not, trust me...
Good.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:19 PM
Yea it does. It helps the NBA prevent future situations like this where there is of great magnitude in the game.

No, it doesn't. Faking injuries are incredibly easy.

"Can't play these guys, all got food poisoning at a restaurant."

"Flu."

"Hurt foot."

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:20 PM
I'm sure people understand that. People also understand teams should at least give warning (which is what Stern wanted), considering this was a game that had great magnitude.




He made his decision for the NBA. He wasn't biased against the Spurs or he wasn't biased for anyone else in the league. He did it for the league.




Good.

His intent was to improve the NBA. However, intent doesn't mean anything for actual results. In which case, has pissed off the majority of fans and have many fans comparing the NBA to the WWE.

kdspurman
12-01-2012, 10:22 PM
If this is really about the fans like so many people are saying it is, how there was no outcry for teams tanking is mind-boggling. Fans are still not seeing competitive ball. And at the end of the season, yes I get its later in the season but fans still pay $ right? They still don't see their favorite players play. Like Celtics/heat last year on TNT. Its the same thing just a different time of the year.

So what, at the end of the season should tickets be refundable? Cheaper? Buyer beware in fine print? A lot of the arguments are very hypocritical

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:23 PM
His intent was to improve the NBA. However, intent doesn't mean anything for actual results. In which case, has pissed off the majority of fans and have many fans comparing the NBA to the WWE.

You think Stern cares about the fans?

Everyone here is a puppet to Stern. We complain every single game and we see threads all the time, yet everyone here helps put money in Stern's pocket.

Stern, by doing something controversial like this, is getting money from people talking about it.

amos1er
12-01-2012, 10:24 PM
The game in question was a TNT broadcast. Spurs had 4 road games in 5 nights, and Miami had 4 days off. Stern was obviously setting the stage for his boy lebron to look great in the eyes of the fans in this highly viewed match up. Pops didn't want to risk wear and tear to his aging star players in a situation that did not favor them at all.

Pops knew that even if he did play Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli, they would not be at 100% while the Heat players would. Pops, like Phil Jackson also knows Stern likes to make Lebron look good in these highly televised games. So on top of all the disadvantages that the Spurs would have had going into that game, the refs surely would have been on the Heats side as well. So basically the chances of the Spurs pulling off a win were slim to none. With all that in mind, Pops stuck it to Stern and rested his players instead of putting them into a losing situation that made his boy Lebron look good. Pops wants to do everything in his power to help his team get a ring so why would he risk possible injury or additional wear and tear on an unfair situation were they will most likely lose anyways.

Why on earth would Pops want to risk so much for no reward. Much props to Pops on this one. **** YOU STERN YOU CROOKED FASCIST ****!!!

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:24 PM
Yes, when you alienate fans it will eventually hurt financially. There is a reason why basketball is still behind baseball in profits. It has alienated many fans from its previous actions.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:26 PM
Yes, when you alienate fans it will eventually hurt financially. There is a reason why basketball is still behind baseball in profits. It has alienated many fans from its previous actions.

Ironically, the people he 'alienates' are still watching.

NBA is more popular than baseball...

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 10:27 PM
I'm sure people understand that. People also understand teams should at least give warning (which is what Stern wanted), considering this was a game that had great magnitude.

He made his decision for the NBA. He wasn't biased against the Spurs or he wasn't biased for anyone else in the league. He did it for the league.


So what, we then let Stern off the hook cuz he didn't issue the warning instead of the fine? No, he's made a bad call, misused his power to do it. Worse, he doesn't acknowledge it's a mistake. Who made him god? Bigger than the game?

The argument can be equally be made that the best move for the game would be to ensure Parker, Timmy, and Manu needed to be rested to help avoid injury, thus, being able to play more overall games this season, and therefore entertaining that many more fans.

Who says what he thinks is right, or even if this is the kind of thought process he had in making his decision? Are we just to accept the fact David Stern can arbitrarily step in at any time to impose what he thinks is best for the league?

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:29 PM
So what, we then let Stern off the hook cuz he didn't issue the warning instead of the fine? No, he's made a bad call, misused his power to do it. Worse, he doesn't acknowledge it's a mistake. Who made him god? Bigger than the game?

The argument can be equally be made that the best move for the game would be to ensure Parker, Timmy, and Manu needed to be rested to help avoid injury, thus, being able to play more overall games this season, and therefore entertaining that many more fans.

Who says what he thinks is right, or even if this is the kind of thought process he had in making his decision? Are we just to accept the fact David Stern can arbitrarily step in at any time to impose what he thinks is best for the league?

Who's letting him off the hook? We all said that he made a mistake by fining them. All I said was that his intentions were correct, but his actions to prevent it from happening in the future were wrong.

gaughan333
12-01-2012, 10:32 PM
I never said he couldn't sit out his players. I understand if he wants to sit guys out to prevent injuries. But when you know this game has a large magnitude, at least warn them in advance, especially when you made your decision before the season started that they wouldn't play.
The rules don't say this. He followed the rules. You're literally asking him to do something that isn't required of him and he couldn't have for sure known.

gaughan333
12-01-2012, 10:33 PM
Some dads can barely afford to take their kids to 1 game a year. When I pick a game to watch who the opponent is plays a huge role in what tickets I would buy. The star players and best teams are obviously going to be much more valued games than the Cavaliers or Wizards. It used to be near impossible to get tickets to see the Knicks play Jordan. I would feel really bad for a family that can barely afford to go to a game to show up to find out the other team decided not to play their real team. If this was 1 player late in the season or sitting players in various games it might be different but sitting 4 of your 5 starters without injury on the same night? That is going way too far. People that paid to see the Heat play the Spurs got ripped off. Stern did the right thing. If Lebron and other star players were told they would not have to make the trip to SA Peter Holt would freak out.

Why?

gaughan333
12-01-2012, 10:33 PM
Doesn't help Pops win when he sits his best players against one of the best teams to begin with. He doesn't have to tell them, but clearly there's something on the line for the NBA Pops should be aware of.

Either way, Stern is changing the rules. Nothing we can do. No point of debating about it.

Except you know, in the conference game against the grizzlies.

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 10:34 PM
Who's letting him off the hook? We all said that he made a mistake by fining them. All I said was that his intentions were correct, but his actions to prevent it from happening in the future were wrong.

so is it wrong to be upset about the decision not being overturned?

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:35 PM
Ironically, the people he 'alienates' are still watching.

NBA is more popular than baseball...

Except, MLB has double the amount of profit compared to the NBA.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:37 PM
Except, MLB has double the amount of profit compared to the NBA.

I talked about popularity, not revenue.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:38 PM
so is it wrong to be upset about the decision not being overturned?

People should complain that he fined them. But people shouldn't complain about his intentions.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:39 PM
I talked about popularity, not revenue.

MLB is more popular than the NBA. Especially recently.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:39 PM
The rules don't say this. He followed the rules. You're literally asking him to do something that isn't required of him and he couldn't have for sure known.

That happens all the time. That's why I think the fine is unnecessary.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:40 PM
Except you know, in the conference game against the grizzlies.

That's 2 different games. I'm talking about the Miami game by itself.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:41 PM
MLB is more popular than the NBA. Especially recently.

Worldwide, people watch the NBA over the MLB.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:41 PM
That's 2 different games. I'm talking about the Miami game by itself.

Season is more than one game. Games outside the conference weigh less than division games in the standings.

Maximizing your chance to win that game is smarter.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:43 PM
Worldwide, people watch the NBA over the MLB.

Amazingly, the fans here produce more profits because they can go to the game.

It's why the MLB makes more money. Him alienating the fans here is a problem.

If it was about world wide popularity, MLS would make a lot of money, it doesn't.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:46 PM
Season is more than one game. Games outside the conference weigh less than division games in the standings.

Maximizing your chance to win that game is smarter.

Lolol, you are getting sidetracked. Here is the post you made that I responded to.


That doesn't help Pop win. (Against the Heat)

That's why I talk about 1 game, not the season. Because you bring it up. At least if you're going to post, have some consistency.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:47 PM
Amazingly, the fans here produce more profits because they can go to the game.

It's why the MLB makes more money. Him alienating the fans here is a problem.

If it was about world wide popularity, MLS would make a lot of money, it doesn't.

It's probably because there are larger arenas, more games and a long history. More games = larger TV deals. Larger TV Deals = more sponsors.

He's not alienating anyone. The MLB just had a head start.

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 10:51 PM
People should complain that he fined them. But people shouldn't complain about his intentions.

the elements surrounding this decision makes me question his intentions. I think that's a reasonable thing to do. Because if he's the one issuing fines, handing out suspensions and discipline, he's the judge and jury of the league. His impartiality and credibility are paramount.

This decision without warning, or previous track record speaks of him stepping outside of that, and hurts how we view those qualities he's supposed to have.

If he really believed the spurs resting those guys was a problem of habit, he'd have issued a warning before the season. If he only realized this was a problem, then you make a rule at the end of the season, or at worst, issue a league warning and sanctions from that point on. By stepping in now, he exceeds his boundaries of authority and makes a mockery of himself, and the league.

What's even more troubling is that he has not retracted from his position in the matter. By not doing so, it makes a statement that he is above judgement, above mistake, and quite simply, a fool.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:53 PM
the elements surrounding this decision makes me question his intentions. I think that's a reasonable thing to do. Because if he's the one issuing fines, handing out suspensions and discipline, he's the judge and jury of the league. His impartiality and credibility are paramount.

This decision without warning, or previous track record speaks of him stepping outside of that, and hurts how we view those qualities he's supposed to have.

If he really believed the spurs resting those guys was a problem of habit, he'd have issued a warning before the season. If he only realized this was a problem, then you make a rule at the end of the season, or at worst, issue a league warning and sanctions from that point on. By stepping in now, he exceeds his boundaries of authority and makes a mockery of himself, and the league.

What's even more troubling is that he has not retracted from his position in the matter. By not doing so, it makes a statement that he is above judgement, above mistake, and quite simply, a fool.


His intentions are for the betterment of the league. He only handed out fines to enforce his original intentions. It was irrational to hand out the fines, but it worked. Teams will be more cautious going forward.

BKLYNpigeon
12-01-2012, 10:55 PM
Stern should fine the Washington Wizards because their product is worse then the Spurs B Team.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 10:56 PM
It's probably because there are larger arenas, more games and a long history. More games = larger TV deals. Larger TV Deals = more sponsors.

He's not alienating anyone. The MLB just had a head start.

There was a time the NBA and MLB were closer, the MLB has widened the gap here and the NBA has actually stagnated in gaining popularity, while baseball hasn't. It's why baseball makes more money

There is a reason it's more popular around the world, world wide fans only care about the bigger markets. It's why, me, not a soccer fan, only hears about Real Madrid and Barcelona. Because foreign fans only care about the big markets.

Not the best way to make money.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:56 PM
Stern should fine the Washington Wizards because their product is worse then the Spurs B Team.

The Wizards have 2 injured players that can't play at all.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 10:59 PM
There was a time the NBA and MLB were closer, the MLB has widened the gap here and the NBA has actually stagnated in gaining popularity, while baseball hasn't. It's why baseball makes more money

There is a reason it's more popular around the world, world wide fans only care about the bigger markets. It's why, me, not a soccer fan, only hears about Real Madrid and Barcelona. Because foreign fans only care about the big markets.

Not the best way to make money.

It's because there's no parity in basketball. The rich teams get richer and the bad teams don't make money.

The NBA doesn't alienate fans on purpose. Fans feel alienated for other reasons.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 11:00 PM
It's because there's no parity in basketball. The rich teams get richer and the bad teams don't make money.

The NBA doesn't alienate fans on purpose. Fans feel alienated for other reasons.

You are right, but they do. Intentions don't matter.

Sly Guy
12-01-2012, 11:00 PM
His intentions are for the betterment of the league. He only handed out fines to enforce his original intentions. It was irrational to hand out the fines, but it worked. Teams will be more cautious going forward.

how can you say that when it's been like 24 hours since the fine was handed out? What record of games has there been since the fine to tell you that teams will no longer rest their stars going forward?

How do you know what his intentions were? Are we to believe him at his word?

I don't know about you, but I was always raised to believe that actions speak louder than words, and Stern's actions are speaking volumes different to me.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 11:03 PM
how can you say that when it's been like 24 hours since the fine was handed out? What record of games has there been since the fine to tell you that teams will no longer rest their stars going forward?

Well if you were a team, would you do the exact same thing when you're going to get punished?


How do you know what his intentions were? Are we to believe him at his word?

I don't believe his every word, but you can clearly tell he wanted the 2 best teams to go against each other. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.


I don't know about you, but I was always raised to believe that actions speak louder than words, and Stern's actions are speaking volumes different to me.

Actions don't always represent a person properly. People make bad decisions all the time, doesn't mean they are the devil like what people label Stern.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 11:05 PM
Raps, what will prevent teams from faking injuries?

BKLYNpigeon
12-01-2012, 11:14 PM
its not about the fans...


its about the SPONSORS!! Tens of Millions are invested in Nationally Televised games. if the Ratings go down, sponsors dont make money, NBA doesnt make money, nobody makes money. its always about the money.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 11:16 PM
Raps, what will prevent teams from faking injuries?

Duncan and Parker putting guns to the heads of other athletes so they don't fake injures.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 11:18 PM
What will happen because of this.

Nothing.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 11:19 PM
What will happen because of this.

Nothing.

Prove it.

kdspurman
12-01-2012, 11:20 PM
Duncan and Parker putting guns to the heads of other athletes so they don't fake injures.

:confused:

Guppyfighter
12-01-2012, 11:20 PM
Prove it.

It happened in 1990. This kind of fine. Teams will still and do rest players, just under vague injuries.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2012, 11:21 PM
It happened in 1990. This kind of fine. Teams will still and do rest players, just under vague injuries.

Eh. Stern will just fine teams for resting injured players. Problem solved.

Aust
12-02-2012, 12:08 AM
ok Pop, the next time you want to rest your starters, just put some bogus excuse on the injury report. Stern shouldn't be able to do jack

Duncan, DNP, painful nose hairs
Parker, DNP, toxic gas

Mr.Nate30
12-02-2012, 01:18 AM
ok Pop, the next time you want to rest your starters, just put some bogus excuse on the injury report. Stern shouldn't be able to do jack

Duncan, DNP, painful nose hairs
Parker, DNP, toxic gas

yeah hes just letting pop have a field day messing with his players expect more DNP-old

Sly Guy
12-02-2012, 02:13 AM
Well if you were a team, would you do the exact same thing when you're going to get punished?

$250,000 is still small when comparing the fine to the payroll of an average team. If I honestly believed that resting my players one game would net me two wins in return, I don't know....I probably would.



I don't believe his every word, but you can clearly tell he wanted the 2 best teams to go against each other. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.


The point pop is trying to make is that it isn't two of the best teams going at each other. It's one good team well rested vs another who's tired. just because the big names are on the floor doesn't mean their game is.



Actions don't always represent a person properly. People make bad decisions all the time, doesn't mean they are the devil like what people label Stern.

they do a pretty damned good job in my books. And I'm perfectly fine with Stern making a mistake, but you're no better than the mistake if you aren't big enough to admit when you're wrong. And so far, I don't see that kind of movement coming out of Stern's camp.

torocan
12-02-2012, 02:20 AM
I don't have any issue with Stern wanting to see Stars on the court for televised games.

However, he shouldn't have fined the Spurs for 2 simple reasons.

The schedule was stupid. If he wants quality TV games, don't put them at the end of a 4 in 5, and try to avoid scheduling either team at the end of a back to back when possible.

Also, there was NO defined rule or policy about it. If he wants to make a policy after the fact and attach fines, then sure. Go ahead. However, Manufacturing a policy and Retroactively fining the Spurs is patently ridiculous.

Give the Spurs a warning, define the policy and guidelines, issue it to all the team Front Offices, and THEN fine the NEXT violator.

Stern fining the Spurs for a non-existent offense is the definition of retroactive legislation or policy. It would be like me noticing you're wearing Green at work, then fining you for wearing Green without ever putting it in the company rulebook.

It's just fundamentally wrong no matter how you cut it.

UnWantedTheory
12-02-2012, 02:28 AM
I would have given them a clear warning first but I understand why Stern is against this

Would you guys be ok with a team like the wizards purposely putting out their worst players to get a high draft pick?

It wouldn't make a difference now would it? And teams have already done this in the past.

UnWantedTheory
12-02-2012, 03:02 AM
You said it yourself.

He's setting a culture for financial benefit (as well as the culture of entertaining the fans). Stern wants the league to get money. Sitting your players out during important games doesn't exactly equate to money if it happens in a consistent basis. Imagine sitting someone out Christmas day for rest. That would piss sponsors and fans off.

The Spurs have done this many times in the past. This wasn't nor will it ever be an epidemic. I repeat the Spurs have done this many times. The fact it was against the Heat was irrelevant to Pop. Not many teams believe in his philosophy to begin with. So I wouldn't worry about it. You couldn't possibly attempt to break it so far down as to say that teams will catch this like the flu and want to rest all of their stars on national games. Why would they? This has never been a real threat before & it isn't now.

The NBA is a billion dollar business & the Spurs are one of the least watched teams in the NBA. This is such a non-issue. The NBA or their "partners" didn't lose a cent. Especially after the circus Stern has unleashed. Most polls I have seen show 80%+ disagree with Stern for doing this. If most all feel this way than who exactly was disserviced? Certainly not me as a fan. As a fan I understand that over the long haul of a season strategy is necessary. As in any sport. I have been to games where Pop has done this and as disappointed as I was, it was alright by me.


It is funny though. The same people *****ing about how they don't want to watch the boring old Spurs are attempting to hang em' because they couldn't? I guess everyone just needs to know it was their option to refuse, not Pops huh?


BTW, no one missed Danny Green on the court that night & Gino isn't a starter. :D hehe

Also, not sure if true, but weren't TNT's ratings that night better than they have recently been? I believe I read that somewhere. Not to mention 99% of the people who went to that game or tuned in just wanted to watch MIA period. They could be playing the local HS girls bb team & the league would rake in $.

At the end of the day there was no true precedent set for this & Pop didn't break any rules. Furthermore the league has allowed similar & far worse things to happen either without a fine or not nearly as harsh. This came down to Stern's ego & blatant dislike of the Spurs IMO. As a fan I have no problem with this & completely disagree with the fine. There should have been a warning & a precedent set if the league feels that strongly against it.



Adam Silver the future commissioner said this last year regarding the Spurs resting players.

"The strategic resting of particular players on particular nights is within the discretion of the teams. And Gregg Popovich in particular is probably the last coach that I would second-guess."

ldawg
12-02-2012, 08:33 AM
Stern has and always will be known as a prick.