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View Full Version : What do you think Chris Paul would have to do to go down as a top 5 PG of all-time



Longhornfan1234
11-29-2012, 03:31 PM
Some people might think he's already a top 5 pg of all-time. I don't think so yet.

Thoughts?

Ebbs
11-29-2012, 03:33 PM
MVP + a ship

or

2-3 championships maintaing his role in the leagues elite point guards for 6-8 more years.

ManRam
11-29-2012, 03:36 PM
Continue to play like a top 5 PG of all time for a while longer.

Well, I know that's not actually good enough for some people, so those awards are a must. Winning a championship (he's never been on a championship caliber team, and I'm not sure this team is either) probably is a must in most people's eyes. But so far, it hasn't been his fault he's ringless.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2012, 03:37 PM
Agree with ManRam honestly. Paul will need to continue making all NBA teams, all star appearances, and putting up great numbers. Team success will for sure help his case. I don't necessarily think he needs to win a chip, but he needs to get a few deep playoff runs under his belt, where he is the best player on the floor.

Sly Guy
11-29-2012, 04:24 PM
I don't think he needs to be anything other than what he's doing right now, just be able to maintain it for a long career.

ManRam
11-29-2012, 04:48 PM
I don't think he needs to be anything other than what he's doing right now, just be able to maintain it for a long career.

I think for him to be perceived how good he really was when his career is over, he'll need those additional accolades. As far as I'm concerned, invididually he has already shown he's one of the 3 best PGs to ever play this game. I'm probably the minority here because I'm willing to ignore the fact he doesn't have an MVP (he probably should have won it the year Kobe got his lifetime achievement MVP) or a ring (he's never played on a team with championship level talent). I can't knock him for either of those omissions in his resume. Others will.

Lots of people don't have the ability to realize that sometimes players are on teams that can't win. Sometimes people are unable to realize that team success is just that - team success. Paul doesn't have that, but that doesn't make him any less the player he is. But, for lots of people, it magically does.

nickdymez
11-29-2012, 04:51 PM
I hate MVP's, but he has to win at least one i think. He doesnt need championships at all.. But his numbers have to be on par with the other all time greats obviously

Avenged
11-29-2012, 04:53 PM
Winning.

Sorry for those who don't value championships or whatnot but that's just how the game goes. He has a stacked team. He needs to win. Top 5 PG isn't out of the question regardless but he has much more potential than that.

NYKnickFanatic
11-29-2012, 04:55 PM
Winning three championships should do the trick.

JordansBulls
11-29-2012, 04:57 PM
A title with the Clippers an organization that never won anything in the past. That will always shoot your up the rankings.

nickdymez
11-29-2012, 04:59 PM
Winning.

Sorry for those who don't value championships or whatnot but that's just how the game goes. He has a stacked team. He needs to win. Top 5 PG isn't out of the question regardless but he has much more potential than that.

I actually do agree with this. His current Clipper team is beyond stacked and there is no reason that he is not at least in the WCF. If they fail to make it again then he will look bad. Barring injury of course.

nickdymez
11-29-2012, 04:59 PM
A title with the Clippers an organization that never won anything in the past. That will always shoot your up the rankings.

Top 3 if he does that.

RonE Coleman
11-29-2012, 05:01 PM
He has won nothing in his career in terms of team success. I know he didnt have the greatest team in New Orleans but if he can't lead that Clippers roster to a few finals appearances or an NBA championship idk how anyone could consider him a top 5 pg all time.

Guys like Nash and Kidd are not even top 5 and have had better careers then CP3, so far.

Only time will tell.

mngopher35
11-29-2012, 05:09 PM
I think a championship with this level of play would guarantee he goes down top 5. Without one or an mvp there will be at least a chunk of people who keep him out of the top 5. If he can make the clippers at least competitive in the playoffs (couple of deep runs) and play at this current level a while longer I will consider him top 5 pg in my books.

OG "Dee" LOCc
11-29-2012, 05:11 PM
Keep this level of play into his 30s....or at least not slow down too much....an MVP wouldn't hurt. Also, get into top 5 for assists and steals.... A lot he can do to get to that status.....but he's gotta win a chip tho to really solidify top 5 imo

rocket
11-29-2012, 05:15 PM
A tittle would be great

albertajaysfan
11-29-2012, 05:18 PM
I feel like a good place to start though is, who are the top 5 that he is just trying to join?

Bruno
11-29-2012, 05:22 PM
i think a ring and a finals MVP would propel Paul into top three, considering his dominant career line.

without a ring/finals MVP, he'll be in the debate of top five anyways. although im sure lots of people (especially the old school crowd) will leave him off their list in favor of Frazier, Thomas, Payton, ect.

he doesn't pass Stockton unless he can rack a finals MVP, a few rings (at least two) and plays deep into his 30's. Stocktons assists records, longevity, consistency, and ability to not get injured is a lot for Paul to get over.

Baller1
11-29-2012, 05:24 PM
Well, I think you have to ask people who their top 5 are first. Then you'll have an easier time deciding how CP3 can crack the list.

I'm no history buff and this is off the top of my head, so you elderly ****s don't rip me too hard... :sigh: but I'd say it'd be something like this right now:

Stockton
Payton
Nash
Kidd
West

nickdymez
11-29-2012, 05:26 PM
i think a ring and a finals MVP would propel Paul into top three, considering his dominant career line.

without a ring/finals MVP, he'll be in the debate of top five anyways. although im sure lots of people (especially the old school crowd) will leave him off their list in favor of Frazier, Thomas, Payton, ect.

he doesn't pass Stockton unless he can rack a finals MVP, a few rings (at least two) and plays deep into his 30's. Stocktons assists records, longevity, consistency, and ability to not get injured is a lot for Paul to get over.

Whoever would put Payton over CP3 is insane.

Bruno
11-29-2012, 05:34 PM
Whoever would put Payton over CP3 is insane.

i've gotten into it deep with lots of old school dudes who swear by Paytons lock down defense. SWEAR BY IT.

Payton was a great PG. I'd take Paul, but Payton was a G. His defense was not to be underestimated. Here are a few box-scores from the 1996 NBA finals- he did a great job defending MJ. Keep in mind this was before zones were straight up legal. Ever hear of another defender who made MJ shoot 26% in the close out game of an NBA finals? keep in mind these were the 72-10 Bulls; dude was elite.

Game Four:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199606120SEA.html

Game Six: Jordan shot 26% in the close-out game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199606160CHI.html

Bishnoff
11-29-2012, 05:35 PM
MVP, Rings, and average more assists. I can't see it happening personally.

lakerfan85
11-29-2012, 05:36 PM
Well, I think you have to ask people who their top 5 are first. Then you'll have an easier time deciding how CP3 can crack the list.

I'm no history buff and this is off the top of my head, so you elderly ****s don't rip me too hard... :sigh: but I'd say it'd be something like this right now:

Stockton
Payton
Nash
Kidd
West

Hmmm.. Magic, isiah & the big O...

nickdymez
11-29-2012, 05:39 PM
i've gotten into it deep with lots of old school dudes who swear by Paytons lock down defense. SWEAR BY IT.

Payton was a great PG. I'd take Paul, but Payton was a G. His defense was not to be underestimated. Here are a few box-scores from the 1996 NBA finals- he did a great job defending MJ. Keep in mind this was before zones were straight up legal. Ever hear of another defender who made MJ shoot 26% in the close out game of an NBA finals? keep in mind these were the 72-10 Bulls; dude was elite.

Game Four:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199606120SEA.html

Game Six: Jordan shot 26% in the close-out game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199606160CHI.html

I feel you. Im a big GP fan and loved the Sonics back then. Payton was a legit defender. He was just pesky and an *******.. lol.. I just gotta give all around game to CP3

mightybosstone
11-29-2012, 05:39 PM
Honestly, I don't think he needs an MVP or a championship to crack the top 5. He just has to keep playing insanely efficient basketball and make some deep playoff runs for at least another six or seven seasons. If he wins a title or an MVP, that could potentially propel him into the top three. Here's my current top 10...

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Walt Frazier
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Steve Nash
7. Jason Kidd
8. Bob Cousy
9. Gary Payton
10. Chris Paul

Outside of Magic and Oscar, I think each player on this list has a significant hole on his resume, whether it's longevity (Frazier), efficiency (Isiah), clutchness (Stockton), defense (Nash) or shooting and scoring (Kidd). Paul is a near perfect point guard. The only reason he isn't ranked higher is longevity and postseason success.

But if Stockton can crack the top five without a title, Paul certainly can, because Paul's numbers are better, he's been a top five player in the league and he should already have one MVP. However, I do think Paul has to have some long playoff runs. If he never plays in a conference finals game, team success would always be a huge black mark on his career.

nickdymez
11-29-2012, 05:40 PM
Well, I think you have to ask people who their top 5 are first. Then you'll have an easier time deciding how CP3 can crack the list.

I'm no history buff and this is off the top of my head, so you elderly ****s don't rip me too hard... :sigh: but I'd say it'd be something like this right now:

Stockton
Payton
Nash
Kidd
West

Come on man, Magic has to be there.

nickdymez
11-29-2012, 05:41 PM
Honestly, I don't think he needs an MVP or a championship to crack the top 5. He just has to keep playing insanely efficient basketball and make some deep playoff runs for at least another six or seven seasons. If he wins a title or an MVP, that could potentially propel him into the top three. Here's my current top 10...

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Walt Frazier
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Steve Nash
7. Jason Kidd
8. Bob Cousy
9. Gary Payton
10. Chris Paul

Outside of Magic and Oscar, I think each player on this list has a significant hole on his resume, whether it's longevity (Frazier), efficiency (Isiah), clutchness (Stockton), defense (Nash) or shooting and scoring (Kidd). Paul is a near perfect point guard. The only reason he isn't ranked higher is longevity and postseason success.

But if Stockton can crack the top five without a title, Paul certainly can, because Paul's numbers are better, he's been a top five player in the league and he should already have one MVP. However, I do think Paul has to have some long playoff runs. If he never plays in a conference finals game, team success would always be a huge black mark on his career.

Why Nash over Kidd?

mightybosstone
11-29-2012, 05:41 PM
Whoever would put Payton over CP3 is insane.

The only reason Paul isn't ahead of Payton on my list is longevity and team success. If he plays at this level another couple of years and continues to make deep playoff runs, he easily pasts Payton all-time and finds himself somewhere in the Nash and Kidd debates.

Chronz
11-29-2012, 05:42 PM
Not catching Magic ... not because he isnt as good but because of the perception behind his greatness. Nobody will ever exceed Magic's aura.

After that I got West and Oscar as my next 2 best PG's. If you dont count those guys in your list then I think I think only Frazier has a case ahead of him (Assuming CP3 can sustain his current level of play for a few years longer). Everyone else is either just as ringless, or won a ring in a minor role or doesnt stack up statistically so those guys arent the ones he needs a ring to surpass.

oballers
11-29-2012, 05:43 PM
For me its

Magic
Kidd
Robertson
Stockton
Nash

Followed by Isiah Thomas, Payton and Frazier
Jerry West gets honorable mention as a scorer. Bob Cousy after him. (That's 10)

I believe Paul can get above Isiah without too much trouble (though it'd be better if he wins 1 or 2 chips).

But to break into the top 5 above he'll need longevity. If he keeps up the pace for a long time and wins chips then he could conceivably reach #2 to Magic.

No one yet can touch Magic.

mightybosstone
11-29-2012, 05:44 PM
Why Nash over Kidd?

Personal preference really. I value Nash's scoring and ability to make his teammates better a little more than Kidd's defense and scary triple double potential. Also, I think Nash played in a much harder conference with much tougher competition or he would easily have played in an NBA Finals or two by now.

Baller1
11-29-2012, 05:46 PM
Hmmm.. Magic, isiah & the big O...


Come on man, Magic has to be there.

Haha, embarrassing on my part. I promise it was off the top of my head though. :laugh2:

mightybosstone
11-29-2012, 05:48 PM
Not catching Magic ... not because he isnt as good but because of the perception behind his greatness. Nobody will ever exceed Magic's aura.

After that I got West and Oscar as my next 2 best PG's. If you dont count those guys in your list then I think I think only Frazier has a case ahead of him (Assuming CP3 can sustain his current level of play for a few years longer). Everyone else is either just as ringless, or won a ring in a minor role or doesnt stack up statistically so those guys arent the ones he needs a ring to surpass.
So if his career ended tomorrow and he never played another NBA game again, he would crack your top 5? For me, I think if we're talking all-time great careers, longevity has to play SOME factor into it. However, if we're just talking peak or prime, you could argue that Paul is the greatest PG in NBA history. I just need to see a little more team success and a few more years of dominance before I'm willing to put him in my top five.

Also, you consider West a PG? I think of him more as a combo guard or a shooting guard than a true point guard.

JetsMetsKnicks
11-29-2012, 05:54 PM
What would he have to do? Kill the other 5

oballers
11-29-2012, 05:54 PM
Honestly, I don't think he needs an MVP or a championship to crack the top 5. He just has to keep playing insanely efficient basketball and make some deep playoff runs for at least another six or seven seasons. If he wins a title or an MVP, that could potentially propel him into the top three. Here's my current top 10...

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Walt Frazier
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Steve Nash
7. Jason Kidd
8. Bob Cousy
9. Gary Payton
10. Chris Paul

Outside of Magic and Oscar, I think each player on this list has a significant hole on his resume, whether it's longevity (Frazier), efficiency (Isiah), clutchness (Stockton), defense (Nash) or shooting and scoring (Kidd). Paul is a near perfect point guard. The only reason he isn't ranked higher is longevity and postseason success.

But if Stockton can crack the top five without a title, Paul certainly can, because Paul's numbers are better, he's been a top five player in the league and he should already have one MVP. However, I do think Paul has to have some long playoff runs. If he never plays in a conference finals game, team success would always be a huge black mark on his career.

Disagree with the use of the word 'Perfect'. He is well rounded (does everything well) but not perfect. Very similar to the Big 'O'.

Kidd may be a perfect play maker, Nash shooter, West scorer, Isiah clutch player, Glove defender etc... Paul is not better than anyone of them at their strength areas. He is just very good across the board. Well rounded.

..wiLL..
11-29-2012, 05:59 PM
i dont think he will ever be top 3 PG's ever ..... you have guys like Magic, John Stockton, the big O, Walt Frazier, J Kidd and as much as i hate him Isiah Thomas so maybe top 10 but top 5 me personally dont think he'll ever be there

..wiLL..
11-29-2012, 05:59 PM
ha guess i should have read all the posts before i wrote something **shrugs** oh well

mightybosstone
11-29-2012, 06:08 PM
Disagree with the use of the word 'Perfect'. He is well rounded (does everything well) but not perfect. Very similar to the Big 'O'.

Kidd may be a perfect play maker, Nash shooter, West scorer, Isiah clutch player, Glove defender etc... Paul is not better than anyone of them at their strength areas. He is just very good across the board. Well rounded.

By "perfect", I mean as good and as efficient and as well rounded as a PG could possibly be. If Zeus had forged a point guard in the fires of Mount Olympus, he would have made Chris Paul. He is not the best scorer, shooter, distributor or defender, but he does EVERYTHING at an elite level and whatever holes he has in his game are the size of dimples on golf balls. The biggest knock on Paul is that he hasn't been able to stay healthy his whole career. But on the court, he rivals any point guard in the history of the sport.

Bishnoff
11-29-2012, 06:21 PM
Here's my PG list from a year ago. I haven't really given it much thought since then.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Bob Cousy
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Jason Kidd
7. Kevin Johnson
8. Steve Nash
9. Garry Payton
10. Walt Frazier
11. Nate Archibald
12. Chris Paul
13. Tim Hardaway
14. Norm Nixon
15. Lenny Wilkens

(I have Iverson, Maravich, and Earl Monroe as SG's before anyone brings up these guys as being better PG's than some of the guys listed above).

Chronz
11-29-2012, 06:21 PM
So if his career ended tomorrow and he never played another NBA game again, he would crack your top 5?
No.....

I think only Frazier has a case ahead of him (Assuming CP3 can sustain his current level of play for a few years longer).
See...



Also, you consider West a PG? I think of him more as a combo guard or a shooting guard than a true point guard.
Depends on which years we're talking here but he won his title as PG and has led the league in assists. I think West was asked about it once and he didn't give a real answer, just that "all I know is whenever I played Frazier we defended each other, whenever I played Oscar we defended each other" or something like that. I dont know of any strict definition of position classification but I like him best at PG because I feel its the position where his defensive abilities would be best utilized in the modern game but I could be wrong about that.

Twins Fanatic
11-29-2012, 06:25 PM
Leave the Clippers, he won't win there.

Mr.SmackYoMama
11-29-2012, 06:32 PM
No way he's a top 5 pg already are you kidding me???(Not you OP just any1 who thinks that) CHAMPIONSHIP! As a leader on a squad not late career ring chaser, coat tail grabbing Championship.

mightybosstone
11-29-2012, 06:41 PM
Here's my PG list from a year ago. I haven't really given it much thought since then.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Bob Cousy
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Jason Kidd
7. Kevin Johnson
8. Steve Nash
9. Garry Payton
10. Walt Frazier
11. Nate Archibald
12. Chris Paul
13. Tim Hardaway
14. Norm Nixon
15. Lenny Wilkens
This is an interesting list. I love KJ, but I think he's way too high, though. I do love Tim Hardaway getting some love, as I remember his play all too well from the days of he and Zo. I think KJ, Tiny, Dennis Johhnson and Hardaway would probably be the next four guys on my list in some random order.



Depends on which years we're talking here but he won his title as PG and has led the league in assists. I think West was asked about it once and he didn't give a real answer, just that "all I know is whenever I played Frazier we defended each other, whenever I played Oscar we defended each other" or something like that. I dont know of any strict definition of position classification but I like him best at PG because I feel its the position where his defensive abilities would be best utilized in the modern game but I could be wrong about that.
West's position is an interesting discussion. Most people (like myself) would consider him a SG because of his propensity for scoring first and passing later. But in today's NBA, I could see him fitting either position because of how different guards are. Wade, Harden and Kobe, for example, are all clearly 2-guards, but they run their offenses at times and create for others like a point guard. Meanwhile, Westy and Rose play the point guard position like shooting guards, scoring first and passing when necessary.

I think part of me wants to make West a SG just because there are so many great point guards in the NBA and SG is a thinner position when you make all-time lists. So perhaps I'm cheating a bit.

Bishnoff
11-29-2012, 06:49 PM
This is an interesting list. I love KJ, but I think he's way too high, though. I do love Tim Hardaway getting some love, as I remember his play all too well from the days of he and Zo. I think KJ, Tiny, Dennis Johhnson and Hardaway would probably be the next four guys on my list in some random order.

6. Jason Kidd
7. Kevin Johnson
8. Steve Nash

Can you tell I'm a Suns fan? :p

ManRam
11-29-2012, 06:52 PM
If he keeps this production up for 5 or so more years, regardless of whether he gets a ring or not, I'll have him ahead of everyone but Magic and Oscar. I don't think he needs a ring (easy to say now, but we'll see) to be better than Zeke, or Cousy, or Nash or Kidd etc. He's already shown he's a better individual player than those guys in his prime, and sustaining it is all that's needed. Nash is a bit iffy, but Nash doesn't have a ring better, and I can confidently say that Paul was better in his prime than Nash.

If the Clippers clearly become a championship contender and he consistently doesn't get to the Finals or win a ring, than maybe I'll think less of him, but right now expecting him to have a ring is beyond foolish, and that's not his fault, and won't necessarily be his fault down the road. One man can only do so much (and he's carried teams further than they've had business going in the past). The Clippers still need some tweaks to contend with OKC, Miami etc.

Kashmir13579
11-29-2012, 06:54 PM
He already has an argument. A ring or two would solidify him as one of the GOATs imo.

Chronz
11-29-2012, 06:57 PM
Here's my PG list from a year ago. I haven't really given it much thought since then.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Bob Cousy
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Jason Kidd
7. Kevin Johnson
8. Steve Nash
9. Garry Payton
10. Walt Frazier
11. Nate Archibald
12. Chris Paul
13. Tim Hardaway
14. Norm Nixon
15. Lenny Wilkens

(I have Iverson, Maravich, and Earl Monroe as SG's before anyone brings up these guys as being better PG's than some of the guys listed above).
You disrespect Billups

Chronz
11-29-2012, 07:13 PM
West's position is an interesting discussion. Most people (like myself) would consider him a SG because of his propensity for scoring first and passing later. But in today's NBA, I could see him fitting either position because of how different guards are.
Today? I dont see the difference, I mean how many SG's have ever led the league in assists?


Wade, Harden and Kobe, for example, are all clearly 2-guards, but they run their offenses at times and create for others like a point guard. Meanwhile, Westy and Rose play the point guard position like shooting guards, scoring first and passing when necessary.
So you feel hes closer to those guys than a traditional PG? What about Frazier? I just wonder how Frazier is on the PG list but West isnt when if you go by traditional pure point standards, West was closer to that.


I think part of me wants to make West a SG just because there are so many great point guards in the NBA and SG is a thinner position when you make all-time lists. So perhaps I'm cheating a bit
I know, I kind of want him at the 1 to give Magic some legit company, particularly if his contemporaries (Big O+Frazier) are in the same category. But couldn't we do the same for the SF position and put Big O there.

Whats the criteria here?

Hawkeye15
11-29-2012, 07:15 PM
Not catching Magic ... not because he isnt as good but because of the perception behind his greatness. Nobody will ever exceed Magic's aura.

After that I got West and Oscar as my next 2 best PG's. If you dont count those guys in your list then I think I think only Frazier has a case ahead of him (Assuming CP3 can sustain his current level of play for a few years longer). Everyone else is either just as ringless, or won a ring in a minor role or doesnt stack up statistically so those guys arent the ones he needs a ring to surpass.

where do you value Stockton? He fits the bottom criteria, but his longevity and sheer numbers have to put him way up there, even if we are still acknowledging that the Utah score keepers were verrrrry friendly with his assists.

Bishnoff
11-29-2012, 07:20 PM
You disrespect Billups

Very true. Probably an oversight, because I do rate him.

DR_1
11-29-2012, 07:22 PM
:laugh: This is a stupid thread. Yet another case if current-player syndrome.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2012, 07:25 PM
:laugh: This is a stupid thread. Yet another case if current-player syndrome.

Paul has been the best PG since year 2 of his career, and fairly easily. Not sure why its stupid to you. His numbers are ridiculous. He just hasn't been given very good teams, which for sure is a ranking killer..

Hawkeye15
11-29-2012, 07:27 PM
I would venture to say that Paul is probably the best PG I have seen since Stockton. Obviously Kidd's longer career, and accolades put him ahead, for now.

Longhornfan1234
11-29-2012, 07:35 PM
I feel like a good place to start though is, who are the top 5 that he is just trying to join?

1. Magic

2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Zeke
5. Kidd

Chronz
11-29-2012, 08:07 PM
where do you value Stockton? He fits the bottom criteria, but his longevity and sheer numbers have to put him way up there, even if we are still acknowledging that the Utah score keepers were verrrrry friendly with his assists.

Where do you rank him vs Kidd/Nash/GP/Zeke?

Bishnoff
11-29-2012, 08:21 PM
Paul has been the best PG since year 2 of his career, and fairly easily. Not sure why its stupid to you. His numbers are ridiculous. He just hasn't been given very good teams, which for sure is a ranking killer..

I don't think he was the best PG in the league in his 2nd season. Nash put up way better numbers and lead the Suns to the WC Semi's that season. Hornets didn't even make the Playoffs in 2006/07. You could make arguments for Nash, Parker, Arenas, Billups, and Baron Davis all being better PG's than CP3 back in 06/07.

Also, I don't agree with the whole "he's never had a good supporting cast" theory. He's been surrounded by plenty of decent players over the years but has never gotten a team past the 2nd round. A lot of other players have done more with less.

Until he wins a MVP (Nash & Rose are both PG's who've won MVP whilst CP3 has been in the NBA) and leads a team to at least the Finals (if not a Championship) then I don't think he can be considered a Top 5 All Time PG.

b@llhog24
11-29-2012, 08:22 PM
Health.

Alayla
11-30-2012, 12:30 AM
just about 4 more years of what hes doing now and im sold

THE MTL
11-30-2012, 12:35 AM
A title with the Clippers should do it. I would also like to see another 20ppg 10apg season from him

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 12:47 AM
Not catching Magic ... not because he isnt as good but because of the perception behind his greatness. Nobody will ever exceed Magic's aura.

After that I got West and Oscar as my next 2 best PG's. If you dont count those guys in your list then I think I think only Frazier has a case ahead of him (Assuming CP3 can sustain his current level of play for a few years longer). Everyone else is either just as ringless, or won a ring in a minor role or doesnt stack up statistically so those guys arent the ones he needs a ring to surpass.

Nash 2 MVPS
Kidd 3 finals and a Championship (still major part of why Dallas won)

Sorry but CP3 has no where near the career either one of them has had and neither of them is top 5

Chronz
11-30-2012, 03:57 AM
Nash 2 MVPS
Kidd 3 finals and a Championship (still major part of why Dallas won)

Sorry but CP3 has no where near the career either one of them has had and neither of them is top 5

Whats your top 5 look like.

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:19 AM
Whats your top 5 look like.

Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Isiah
Walt

Then guys like Nash, Kidd, Payton, KJ are also without a doubt ahead of CP3 right now.

Not old enough to have seen Cousy play at all so I'm not gonna just throw him in there because everyone else does.

CP3 is great but he is also one of the most overrated players in terms of top all time lists for someone whose team has won Nothing throughout his entire career.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:25 AM
Where do you rank him vs Kidd/Nash/GP/Zeke?

I can't rank any of them ahead of Stockton, though I have a problem ranking Stockton ahead of them, but I think his sheer numbers put him a nod above.

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:27 AM
Chris Paul's team has a losing record against ALL the other elite point guards in today's NBA. Regardless of teammates, for a guy whose widely considered the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league that is pretty horrible.

Hes 3-6 against Rondo and the Cs
Hes 0-5 against Rose
Hes 12-24 against Parker
Hes 4-14 against D Will

Notice a pattern here?

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:27 AM
I don't think he was the best PG in the league in his 2nd season. Nash put up way better numbers and lead the Suns to the WC Semi's that season. Hornets didn't even make the Playoffs in 2006/07. You could make arguments for Nash, Parker, Arenas, Billups, and Baron Davis all being better PG's than CP3 back in 06/07.

Also, I don't agree with the whole "he's never had a good supporting cast" theory. He's been surrounded by plenty of decent players over the years but has never gotten a team past the 2nd round. A lot of other players have done more with less.

Until he wins a MVP (Nash & Rose are both PG's who've won MVP whilst CP3 has been in the NBA) and leads a team to at least the Finals (if not a Championship) then I don't think he can be considered a Top 5 All Time PG.

I don't think a case can be made for others after his 1st year quite frankly. Nash was on a stud team, and as great as he is, his utter lack of defense holds him from being a complete PG, in the all time rankings (meaning, he isn't going to make my top 3).

MVP goes to either a top player on a top team (CP3 has never had the help Rose or Nash did, this is not debateable), or the big story (Bulls). Quite simply, in either 08', or 09', he put forth a better season than Rose or Nash, or any of the other guards you listed, has ever put forth, yet didn't win the MVP.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:29 AM
Chris Paul's team has a losing record against ALL the other elite point guards in today's NBA. Regardless of teammates, for a guy whose widely considered the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league that is pretty horrible.

Hes 3-6 against Rondo and the Cs
Hes 0-5 against Rose
Hes 12-24 against Parker
Hes 4-14 against D Will

Notice a pattern here?

but its a team sport, period. Disregarding teammates renders your point useless.

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:31 AM
I don't think a case can be made for others after his 1st year quite frankly. Nash was on a stud team, and as great as he is, his utter lack of defense holds him from being a complete PG, in the all time rankings (meaning, he isn't going to make my top 3).

MVP goes to either a top player on a top team (CP3 has never had the help Rose or Nash did, this is not debateable), or the big story (Bulls). Quite simply, in either 08', or 09', he put forth a better season than Rose or Nash, or any of the other guards you listed, has ever put forth, yet didn't win the MVP.

Meh, you put Lebron on any of those Hornets teams and I think they have much more success. For a guy whose a consensus 2-3 best player in the NBA right now he sure has really done nothing come playoff time.

I get your argument but if he was as amazing as everyone rates him he should still be able to do more.

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:33 AM
but its a team sport, period. Disregarding teammates renders your point useless.

Not at all, I'm not saying he could take them 1 on 5. I'm simply saying for a guy who gets rated so high he really has accomplished nothing come playoff time.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:33 AM
Meh, you put Lebron on any of those Hornets teams and I think they have much more success. For a guy whose a consensus 2-3 best player in the NBA right now he sure has really done nothing come playoff time.

I get your argument but if he was as amazing as everyone rates him he should still be able to do more.

LeBron is a different animal though. He is one of a handful of players in history that can make a crap team a 55-60 win team. I don't think a PG outside of MAYBE Magic fits that, impact wise.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:36 AM
Not at all, I'm not saying he could take them 1 on 5. I'm simply saying for a guy who gets rated so high he really has accomplished nothing come playoff time.

Well, he did the one year he had a decent roster. You know, when he turned a role player in West into an all star, had a healthy Peja, made Chandler an all star, etc...

Do you remember watching him tear the Lakers apart 2 years ago in round 1, and his help was so bad, that the announcers said the following, "losing Aaron Gray is a big blow to the Hornets".

Aaron.Gray.Big.Blow.

These were his teammates.

Baller1
11-30-2012, 04:39 AM
Well, he did the one year he had a decent roster. You know, when he turned a role player in West into an all star, had a healthy Peja, made Chandler an all star, etc...

Do you remember watching him tear the Lakers apart 2 years ago in round 1, and his help was so bad, that the announcers said the following, "losing Aaron Gray is a big blow to the Hornets".

Aaron.Gray.Big.Blow.

These were his teammates.

I kinda forgot about that series CP3 had... My god he tore them up. That was fun to watch. And I don't even like him.

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:40 AM
LeBron is a different animal though. He is one of a handful of players in history that can make a crap team a 55-60 win team. I don't think a PG outside of MAYBE Magic fits that, impact wise.

I guess that is fair. I just think for a guy to be considered great he has to have accomplished something team wise. Of course there are exceptions but look at Iverson, he took a team of scrubs or guys on the end of their careers to the finals.

CP3 has never even been to the WCF while everyone kills Melo when at least he has been there.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:42 AM
I guess that is fair. I just think for a guy to be considered great he has to have accomplished something team wise. Of course there are exceptions but look at Iverson, he took a team of scrubs or guys on the end of their careers to the finals.

CP3 has never even been to the WCF while everyone kills Melo when at least he has been there.

Again, lets look at Melo's help and coaches. You MUST put things in context man. Seriously.

You are probably right. Without team success, Paul will never get the acknowledgment or ranking he deserves. But that is how it works. Always has been, always will be. Hopefully his knees hold up, he now seems to be in a situation where he does have another aspiring star, with some solid role player help.

To the Iverson point, I have covered this. That roster is underrated by so many, and they played in the weakest era I have seen in modern day basketball for a conference. Seriously, at that time, whichever team came out of the east was the sacrificial lamb, and reward for whatever west team had to play real teams to get there...

Guppyfighter
11-30-2012, 04:43 AM
I guess that is fair. I just think for a guy to be considered great he has to have accomplished something team wise. Of course there are exceptions but look at Iverson, he took a team of scrubs or guys on the end of their careers to the finals.

CP3 has never even been to the WCF while everyone kills Melo when at least he has been there.

Actually, that team of "scrubs" carried Allen, not the other way around.

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:44 AM
Well, he did the one year he had a decent roster. You know, when he turned a role player in West into an all star, had a healthy Peja, made Chandler an all star, etc...

Do you remember watching him tear the Lakers apart 2 years ago in round 1, and his help was so bad, that the announcers said the following, "losing Aaron Gray is a big blow to the Hornets".

Aaron.Gray.Big.Blow.

These were his teammates.

Yeah, that one year he had a decent roster (his best year to date) his team got absolutely smacked by the Nuggets in the first round including a 121 to 63 defeat in game 4.

There goes your argument

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:45 AM
I kinda forgot about that series CP3 had... My god he tore them up. That was fun to watch. And I don't even like him.

I just remember saying, "god I feel bad for Paul", when the announcers made a big deal out of Gray going down. Really? Aaron Gray has no business playing a minute for a playoff team.

Baller1
11-30-2012, 04:46 AM
I just remember saying, "god I feel bad for Paul", when the announcers made a big deal out of Gray going down. Really? Aaron Gray has no business playing a minute for a playoff team.

The saddest part is that it was true... It really was a big blow to that team, haha.

Sactown
11-30-2012, 04:47 AM
I just remember saying, "god I feel bad for Paul", when the announcers made a big deal out of Gray going down. Really? Aaron Gray has no business playing a minute for a playoff team.

Gray was Ballin! although his slow *** looked like an iceberg going down the court.. lol.. thank god they traded for carl landry that season

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:47 AM
Yeah, that one year he had a decent roster (his best year to date) his team got absolutely smacked by the Nuggets in the first round including a 121 to 63 defeat in game 4.

There goes your argument

notice I said decent. Paul led the NBA playoffs in PER, assist rate, offensive win shares, and WS/48, apg, and spg. What more do you want him to do?

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:48 AM
The saddest part is that it was true... It really was a big blow to that team, haha.

and that proves my point. When losing Aaron Gray is a blow, um, your roster is very lucky to be there. The reason they were, is Chris Paul.

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:49 AM
Actually, that team of "scrubs" carried Allen, not the other way around.

Yea nothing to do with Iversons 31 points a game in the regular season or his
33 points a game 6 assists and 4 rebounds 2.5 steals a game in the playoffs last year.

If you think they carried him you sir are an idiot. :facepalm:

Baller1
11-30-2012, 04:50 AM
and that proves my point. When losing Aaron Gray is a blow, um, your roster is very lucky to be there. The reason they were, is Chris Paul.

Yeah, I agree completely. Still hate him though, haha. ;)

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:51 AM
notice I said decent. Paul led the NBA playoffs in PER, assist rate, offensive win shares, and WS/48, apg, and spg. What more do you want him to do?

Yet his team got absolutely annihilated by the Nuggets. Hmmm...

Your thinking of the wrong season, pauls best season to date the 2008-09 season (with West, Peja, Chandler) , his team got smacked around by Melo and the Nuggets in the first round.

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 04:52 AM
Sorry but the biggest Iverson haters will admit to you he carried that Philly team not the other way around.

If you can't see that then you are blind

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:52 AM
Yet his team got absolutely annihilated by the Nuggets. Hmmm...

superior roster and coaching bud. Is it that difficult for you to understand?

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:53 AM
CP3 has the 3 highest seasons of PER of any PG ever, and has the 2 highest win share seasons of any guard ever.

Sactown
11-30-2012, 04:53 AM
What Chris Paul said to the Hornets GM before he left
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyfLER3Z0-Q

Baller1
11-30-2012, 04:56 AM
What Chris Paul said to the Hornets GM before he left
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyfLER3Z0-Q

:laugh2:

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:57 AM
Yet his team got absolutely annihilated by the Nuggets. Hmmm...

Your thinking of the wrong season, pauls best season to date the 2008-09 season (with West, Peja, Chandler) , his team got smacked around by Melo and the Nuggets in the first round.

well, both seasons were amazing individual play. And my point stands. Anytime his Hornets were eliminated, it was because his roster didn't stack up, nor did his coach. He played out of his mind either way.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 04:58 AM
Sorry but the biggest Iverson haters will admit to you he carried that Philly team not the other way around.

If you can't see that then you are blind

well, he was OBVIOUSLY their heart and soul, and best player. But the fact is, so many underrate that team, because they didn't have another big time scorer, blah, blah, blah. They were elite defensively, coached well, and played in the weak *** east. Like I said, at that point in time, the road to the championship was actually the WCF's. It was a vacation to play whatever east team came through...

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 05:03 AM
well, he was OBVIOUSLY their heart and soul, and best player. But the fact is, so many underrate that team, because they didn't have another big time scorer, blah, blah, blah. They were elite defensively, coached well, and played in the weak *** east. Like I said, at that point in time, the road to the championship was actually the WCF's. It was a vacation to play whatever east team came through...

What is obvious to me and you clearly is not obvious to that other poster. Iverson carried that team, of course his teammates played a major part though.

And you still gotta win 3 playoff series to get to the finals.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2012, 05:04 AM
What is obvious to me and you clearly is not obvious to that other poster. Iverson carried that team, of course his teammates played a major part though.

And you still gotta win 3 playoff series to get to the finals.

I don't feel like getting into this again. That team was so underrated by fans, and media.

Yes, you do. At the time, it was against multiple teams that wouldn't have even made the dance in the other conference.

Chronz
11-30-2012, 05:36 AM
Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Isiah
Walt

Then guys like Nash, Kidd, Payton, KJ are also without a doubt ahead of CP3 right now.

Not old enough to have seen Cousy play at all so I'm not gonna just throw him in there because everyone else does.

CP3 is great but he is also one of the most overrated players in terms of top all time lists for someone whose team has won Nothing throughout his entire career.
Well you got Stockton ahead of guys who won titles so I think CP3 has an argument with the guys you mentioned. I would agree they are ahead but only because of longevity, CP3 doesnt have to change much, just play at this already superior level for a few years longer to have the better resume IMO.

I dont see how CP3 is overrated, there was a point when people actually thought Deron Williams was the better player.

Sactown
11-30-2012, 05:39 AM
Well you got Stockton ahead of guys who won titles so I think CP3 has an argument with the guys you mentioned.

I don't understand the title argument... CP3 has never played with a player close to the talent level of Karl Malone, but he's never faced a player like Jordan.. It's best not to compare players when using the ring argument, because the talent a player faces changes every year.

Sactown
11-30-2012, 05:41 AM
What is obvious to me and you clearly is not obvious to that other poster. Iverson carried that team, of course his teammates played a major part though.

And you still gotta win 3 playoff series to get to the finals.

The 76ers loaded up the team with defensive monsters to put along side of Iverson.. They actually built a very good team around him considering his playing style..

Chronz
11-30-2012, 05:42 AM
Meh, you put Lebron on any of those Hornets teams and I think they have much more success. For a guy whose a consensus 2-3 best player in the NBA right now he sure has really done nothing come playoff time.

I get your argument but if he was as amazing as everyone rates him he should still be able to do more.

I dont call willing a depleted team beyond a superior one, all while injured himself to be nothing. His performance vs the Lakers was pretty epic. He has alot more work to do but I wouldn't call what hes done nothing. Its not like hes losing in R.1 despite having the far superior team ala Gary Payton or something.

Chronz
11-30-2012, 05:42 AM
Not at all, I'm not saying he could take them 1 on 5. I'm simply saying for a guy who gets rated so high he really has accomplished nothing come playoff time.

But your post was of regular season matchups so its clear you were trying to say something else. Like Hawkeye says, anytime you disregard teammates, you render your point irrelevant

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 06:05 AM
But your post was of regular season matchups so its clear you were trying to say something else. Like Hawkeye says, anytime you disregard teammates, you render your point irrelevant

So what are we not supposed to judge CP3s playoff performances because hes had an inferior team every year?

His Clippers last year got ran over by the Spurs as well

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying hes not great. Just saying Top 5 all time is a big stretch when he hasn't really accomplished any team success.

And although Nash or Stockton never won a championship both have had numerous runs in the playoffs. Stockton just happened to play when a guy named Michael Jordan ran things.

And Nash was robbed in 2005 when they would have likely gone on to win the title if not for a bogus suspension to Amare when Horry shoved Nash.

If the clippers do nothing in the playoffs this year I just don't wanna hear the excuses of "oh well the Thunder had KD or the Lakers had Kobe, Dwight, etc."

RonE Coleman
11-30-2012, 06:07 AM
But your post was of regular season matchups so its clear you were trying to say something else. Like Hawkeye says, anytime you disregard teammates, you render your point irrelevant

Well of those elite point guards he has only gone up against Parkers spurs who have dominated both the Hornets and Clippers teams that Chris Paul was on in the playoffs.

sammyvine
11-30-2012, 07:34 AM
So Chris Paul has never won a ring, never won an MVP, never been to the finals but some think he will go down as a top 5 PG ever.... i mean WTF

Steve Nash - 2 MVP'S
Jason Kidd - 1 Ring
Isiah - 2 Rings, 1 Finals MVP

If he wins then yeah but i can't see the clippers winning in all honesty.

THE MTL
11-30-2012, 09:45 AM
So Chris Paul has never won a ring, never won an MVP, never been to the finals but some think he will go down as a top 5 PG ever.... i mean WTF

Steve Nash - 2 MVP'S
Jason Kidd - 1 Ring
Isiah - 2 Rings, 1 Finals MVP

If he wins then yeah but i can't see the clippers winning in all honesty.

I agree that he needs to win something before he can be considered, but I will also say that Kidd/Nash have never been as good as CP3.

2009 Chris Paul- 23ppg 11apg 3spg 50% FG 87%FT might be the greatest season ever for a PG.

JordansBulls
11-30-2012, 10:42 AM
CP3 has the 3 highest seasons of PER of any PG ever, and has the 2 highest win share seasons of any guard ever.
:confused:

Chronz
11-30-2012, 02:27 PM
So what are we not supposed to judge CP3s playoff performances because hes had an inferior team every year?
Who says you cant judge him. All we are saying is you cant ignore context.


His Clippers last year got ran over by the Spurs as well
After he had already willed our depleted team past a superior one while being hurt himself. Even Pop will tell you how limited CP3 was. So yea no shame there. He wasnt even healthy, didnt have HCA or the better team and he still won a playoff series. Thats pretty damn impressive.


Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying hes not great. Just saying Top 5 all time is a big stretch when he hasn't really accomplished any team success.
Thats because its a team game, like I said, its not like hes losing in round 1 with a superior squad ala Gary Payton. I dont think anyone has said hes Top5 already but its definitely not for the reasons you gave, its because he lacks the longevity.


And although Nash or Stockton never won a championship both have had numerous runs in the playoffs. Stockton just happened to play when a guy named Michael Jordan ran things.
Wheres the part where you mention Stockton was his teams 2nd best player? When has CP3 ever been his teams 2nd best player? Things like that matter when discussing team success, you cant just totally ignore context.

Stockton is ahead because of his ridiculous longevity and solid play. CP3 is already a better player than Stockton IMO, he just needs to catch up in years served.


And Nash was robbed in 2005 when they would have likely gone on to win the title if not for a bogus suspension to Amare when Horry shoved Nash.
I dont buy it, they never beat the Spurs and there was always an excuse why. Then they had to deal with the defending champs. I like that your applying context for Nash tho, those suspensions did hurt his teams chances.


If the clippers do nothing in the playoffs this year I just don't wanna hear the excuses of "oh well the Thunder had KD or the Lakers had Kobe, Dwight, etc."
You should stop living in extremes and let things play out. If CP3 gos above and beyond in helping the team but he still manages to lose, then I wont blame him. You should stop attributing team success entirely to the play of a single player, thats not how basketball works.

Chronz
11-30-2012, 02:28 PM
Well of those elite point guards he has only gone up against Parkers spurs who have dominated both the Hornets and Clippers teams that Chris Paul was on in the playoffs.

Im just saying your 2 posts werent connected and that Hawkeye was right in his criticism of your post.

Chronz
11-30-2012, 02:29 PM
So Chris Paul has never won a ring, never won an MVP, never been to the finals but some think he will go down as a top 5 PG ever.... i mean WTF

Steve Nash - 2 MVP'S
Jason Kidd - 1 Ring
Isiah - 2 Rings, 1 Finals MVP

If he wins then yeah but i can't see the clippers winning in all honesty.
Whats your top 5 at every position?

SanAntonioSpurs23
11-30-2012, 02:42 PM
He could start by not being such a flopping pu$$y

beliges
11-30-2012, 02:44 PM
Answer to this question is simple. He needs to.win. individual numbers are nice but the true measure of greatness in this game is having the ability to win. If he wins a couple of championships, he can become a top 5 PG. He has the team to do so.

Chronz
11-30-2012, 02:51 PM
Answer to this question is simple. He needs to.win. individual numbers are nice but the true measure of greatness in this game is having the ability to win. If he wins a couple of championships, he can become a top 5 PG. He has the team to do so.
Whats your Top-PG list look like?

sammyvine
11-30-2012, 07:14 PM
Whats your top 5 at every position?

I must say i am quiet new to the NBA

Point Guards i will go

1.Magic
2.Oscar
3.Isiah
4.Stockton
5.Nash/Kidd

Isiah is a difficult one because he wasn't a better ''PG'' than Stockton and even Kidd/Nash.
I think he was better overall player though and had more of an impact.