PDA

View Full Version : Is Chauncey Billups Hall of Fame worthy?



Gram
11-28-2012, 05:13 PM
NBA champion (2004)
NBA Finals MVP (2004)
5× NBA All-Star (2006–2010)
All-NBA Second Team (2006)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2007, 2009)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2005–2006)

Played very well last year before the injury.

Also helped Denver a lot before they traded him.

Is he a Hall a Famer?

Gram
11-28-2012, 05:17 PM
Yes and I hate Gram.

Gram
11-28-2012, 05:20 PM
Hey alexander_37 is Lin Hall of Fame worthy?

Chronz
11-28-2012, 05:21 PM
Only those who know nothing about the HOF would say no.

Gram
11-28-2012, 05:22 PM
I was hoping for more Yes but I hate Gram votes - but whatever. :shrug:

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 05:25 PM
his stat line


15 ppg 5.5 apg 2.9 rpg .... 41% FG

great 3 point shooter and a great leader but lets be real... those arent HOF numbers... if they are than we are degrading the HOF

NoahH
11-28-2012, 05:26 PM
Yes he is

Clippersfan86
11-28-2012, 05:29 PM
his stat line


15 ppg 5.5 apg 2.9 rpg .... 41% FG

great 3 point shooter and a great leader but lets be real... those arent HOF numbers... if they are than we are degrading the HOF

Another poster that fails to understand context. Or value intangibles. People like you don't watch basketball so you wouldn't know that Billups was a late bloomer similar to Nash. The dude didn't blow up really until Detroit when he was already 26 and had played 7 seasons prior. Early in his career he had a bad rep and was categorized as a team cancer and chucker.

If you just account for his prime and or peak the stats are more like 17 ppg, 6.5 apg, 4 rpg to go with very good defense, clutch play, elite leadership and great ability to draw fouls. He was one of the game changing "big guards" in the mold of Gary Payton where they love going to the post on smaller guards. His impact GREATLY exceeds his stats.

Look at some specific years for more HOF level numbers.

18.5 ppg, 8.5 apg, 3 rpg, 1 spg with great D and 60 percent TS in 05-06 for example at 29 years old, the year after winning the title.

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 05:31 PM
Another poster that fails to understand context. Or value intangibles. People like you don't watch basketball so you wouldn't know that Billups was a late bloomer similar to Nash. The dude didn't blow up really until Detroit when he was already 26 and had played 7 seasons prior. Early in his career he had a bad rep and was categorized as a team cancer and chucker.

tell me why he deserves to be in the HOF instead of failing to insult me

alexander_37
11-28-2012, 05:31 PM
Hey alexander_37 is Lin Hall of Fame worthy?

Duh. Lin r da best. I r big Giants fan, perhaps even #1

teddygreen17
11-28-2012, 05:32 PM
Wow. 5.5 asp for a PG..that's not good. He is like a poor man's Jason Kidd though.

Gram
11-28-2012, 05:32 PM
tell me why he deserves to be in the HOF instead of failing to insult me

How was he insulting you?

ManRam
11-28-2012, 05:32 PM
I'd like to say "no" (and I actually voted no, but all it takes is a quick look to see that he will make it. I think he's really borderline, and I always tend to like Halls of Fame to be more exclusive. His 2004 season might be enough to get him in, but I just don't think he stacked up well enough against his peers for long enough in his career. But he will make it.

The Finals MVP will do the trick. Only a few guys have ever won it and not made the Hall (I know Cedric Maxwell of the top of my head...but he was a way lesser player).

But if Reggie made it so quickly, Chauncey probably will too. Same with Joe Dumars and Dennis Johnson (good parallels IMO). There are a good amount of lesser players who have made it in too.

So I guess based on the past, he does deserve it. I just would personally be fine with the bottom 25% of the Hall not being in the Hall.

Rockice_8
11-28-2012, 05:33 PM
Only those who know nothing about the HOF would say no.

I think that's a little harsh cause I don't see him as this first ballot HOF guy. He certainly has a few question marks on his resume. Chauncey was never dominant at any one skill, was never flashy, and doesn't have the greatest numbers, he's a career 15/5 pg with good D. These HOF things are getting a bit overblown. Every one of them has guys that probably don't deserve to be in and for that reason Billups will probably get in. In reality is Billups one of the best PG's to ever lace them up, probably not. Your comment is reserved for guys like Kidd, Lebron, KG, etc. These guys are the locks.

I think that finals run where he was MVP of the finals is what pushes him over the edge, without that I could see him not getting in.

Clippersfan86
11-28-2012, 05:35 PM
This is a GREAT post today from Tsherkin on ****** that I saw regarding Billups impact.


"He's a career 49.6% eFG and 58.1% TS player because he draws fouls at .444 FTA/FGA over the course of his career, canning them at 89.4% FT. That, coupled with his career 38.9% 3P shooting (5 seasons at 40%+) makes him a HIGHLY efficient and extremely effective offensive player, to say nothing of what happens when you add in the fact that he's a good playmaker (just not a volume playmaker).

It makes sense to give him a bunch of touches, because he's absurdly efficient with them. You're talking about a guy who takes 11.2 FGA/g on his career, produces 15.5 ppg (9 straight seasons of 16.2+ ppg, at that) and produces a career 118 ORTG (7 years in a row of 120+)."

mightybosstone
11-28-2012, 05:35 PM
He's certainly worthy of a discussion. Whether he actually is one is the question. He was arguably the best player on an NBA Championship team and on a team that was very dominant in the East for a good four or five years. However, the rest of his career is what could kill him. He didn't break out until his sixth NBA season and fifth NBA team at the age of 26. And he's played for three teams since leaving Detroit, never being quite the distributor that he was with the Pistons. He is definitely one of the best defensive point guards of his generation, but the Hall very rarely recognizes or cares about perimeter defenders.

And given his longevity in the league, his lack of individual hardware won't do him any favors. He's currently 24th among active players in NBA probability and his number is well below the average of players who get in. While that is certainly an imperfect statistic (Arenas and D-Will are ahead of him), it's also been fairly accurate in the past.

In the end, I think he's got an outside shot, but it'll have to be a really down year with very few nominees for him to make it in, and I'm steal leaning toward "no".

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 05:38 PM
I'd like to say "no" (and I actually voted no, but all it takes is a quick look to see that he will make it. I think he's really borderline, and I always tend to like Halls of Fame to be more exclusive. His 2004 season might be enough to get him in, but I just don't think he stacked up well enough against his peers for long enough in his career. But he will make it.

The Finals MVP will do the trick. Only a few guys have ever won it and not made the Hall (I know Cedric Maxwell of the top of my head...but he was a way lesser player).

But if Reggie made it so quickly, Chauncey probably will too. Same with Joe Dumars and Dennis Johnson (good parallels IMO). There are a good amount of lesser players who have made it in too.

So I guess based on the past, he does deserve it. I just would personally be fine with the bottom 25% of the Hall not being in the Hall.

it took dennis johnson forever to make it and he had a much better resume... so if people think billups is a shoe in they are mistaken

Gram
11-28-2012, 05:39 PM
Chromedome where are you! I don't even know who you are and you hate me - classic! :laugh:

Clippersfan86
11-28-2012, 05:40 PM
This is a GREAT post today from Tsherkin on ****** that I saw regarding Billups impact.


"He's a career 49.6% eFG and 58.1% TS player because he draws fouls at .444 FTA/FGA over the course of his career, canning them at 89.4% FT. That, coupled with his career 38.9% 3P shooting (5 seasons at 40%+) makes him a HIGHLY efficient and extremely effective offensive player, to say nothing of what happens when you add in the fact that he's a good playmaker (just not a volume playmaker).

It makes sense to give him a bunch of touches, because he's absurdly efficient with them. You're talking about a guy who takes 11.2 FGA/g on his career, produces 15.5 ppg (9 straight seasons of 16.2+ ppg, at that) and produces a career 118 ORTG (7 years in a row of 120+)."

Bumped so not buried.

ManRam
11-28-2012, 05:41 PM
it took dennis johnson forever to make it and he had a much better resume... so if people think billups is a shoe in they are mistaken

Yeah. I'd imagine it will take him a while too. He wasn't ever a top 5 player in the league, and probably only a top 10 player (off the top of my head) maybe once (2008...maybe 2006 too).

If he wasn't a Finals MVP I'd be all for him NOT making the HOF.

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 05:43 PM
Yeah. I'd imagine it will take him a while too. He wasn't ever a top 5 player in the league, and probably only a top 10 player (off the top of my head) maybe once (2008...maybe 2006 too).

If he wasn't a Finals MVP I'd be all for him NOT making the HOF.

and I think the longer it takes, the more is lessens the chance of him getting in... considering that at some point he will be battling the current star PG's for HOF spots...and he will lose in that battle

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 05:44 PM
Bumped so not buried.

didnt you just argue about his stats dont show his intangibles but as soon as someone posts stats in your favor you run with them .... classic

Clippersfan86
11-28-2012, 05:46 PM
didnt you just argue about his stats dont show his intangibles but as soon as someone posts stats in your favor you run with them .... classic

Wait what? I said there is MORE to basketball than stats and said I can tell you hadn't watched him play because all you did to discount his HOF value was show his career, raw stats. I never said that his stats aren't valuable or important but just that to use them by themselves... is a clear agenda by you to twist the truth.

Bishnoff
11-28-2012, 05:46 PM
As much as I like Billups, there's plenty of PG's who aren't HOF who I'd induct before him.

SportsFanatic10
11-28-2012, 05:47 PM
yes indeed

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 05:48 PM
As much as I like Billups, there's plenty of PG's who aren't HOF who I'd induct before him.

this is my point exactly lol

mightybosstone
11-28-2012, 05:50 PM
I feel like the poll needs more options, because "worthy" is sort of up for interpretation. Do I think Billups is worth of being in the Hall of Fame? Yes. He was the best player on a championship team and one of the best teams in the East for more than five seasons, he was one of the best defensive point guards of his era (if not the best) and he has always been a consummate professional who has continued to be a useful player into his mid-30s. HOWEVER, he was never one of the 10 best players in the NBA, was never considered elite and was never a phenomenal scorer or distributor. He did a lot of things extremely well, but was never great at anything. And the Hall rarely includes players like that, so I don't think he'll ever get inducted unless he becomes a coach.

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 05:52 PM
I feel like the poll needs more options, because "worthy" is sort of up for interpretation. Do I think Billups is worth of being in the Hall of Fame? Yes. He was the best player on a championship team and one of the best teams in the East for more than five seasons, he was one of the best defensive point guards of his era (if not the best) and he has always been a consummate professional who has continued to be a useful player into his mid-30s. HOWEVER, he was never one of the 10 best players in the NBA, was never considered elite and was never a phenomenal scorer or distributor. He did a lot of things extremely well, but was never great at anything. And the Hall rarely includes players like that, so I don't think he'll ever get inducted unless he becomes a coach.

:clap:

Gram
11-28-2012, 05:52 PM
I feel like the poll needs more options, because "worthy" is sort of up for interpretation. Do I think Billups is worth of being in the Hall of Fame? Yes. He was the best player on a championship team and one of the best teams in the East for more than five seasons, he was one of the best defensive point guards of his era (if not the best) and he has always been a consummate professional who has continued to be a useful player into his mid-30s. HOWEVER, he was never one of the 10 best players in the NBA, was never considered elite and was never a phenomenal scorer or distributor. He did a lot of things extremely well, but was never great at anything. And the Hall rarely includes players like that, so I don't think he'll ever get inducted unless he becomes a coach.

I thought my options were great. :shrug:

rocket
11-28-2012, 05:55 PM
Billups was never the #1 option for any of teams he played for... and he still has a great resume.

mightybosstone
11-28-2012, 05:56 PM
As much as I like Billups, there's plenty of PG's who aren't HOF who I'd induct before him.

This is actually a pretty good point and Kevin Johnson is a great example. KJ played in fewer All Star games than Billups, but he was the superior scorer, he made far more All-NBA teams and he is one of the greatest distributing point guards in NBA history. The lack of a ring hurts KJ, but Billups still only has one. And KJ's Hall of Fame probability is still higher than Billups' (although Chauncey's will continue to grow).

I think KJ should be in the Hall of Fame, but he isn't. And if he isn't getting in the Hall of Fame than Chauncey never will either.

Gram
11-28-2012, 05:56 PM
raiderposting come out come out wherever you are - I don't know who you are. :shrug:

Chronz
11-28-2012, 05:56 PM
I feel like the poll needs more options, because "worthy" is sort of up for interpretation. Do I think Billups is worth of being in the Hall of Fame? Yes. He was the best player on a championship team and one of the best teams in the East for more than five seasons, he was one of the best defensive point guards of his era (if not the best) and he has always been a consummate professional who has continued to be a useful player into his mid-30s. HOWEVER, he was never one of the 10 best players in the NBA, was never considered elite and was never a phenomenal scorer or distributor. He did a lot of things extremely well, but was never great at anything. And the Hall rarely includes players like that, so I don't think he'll ever get inducted unless he becomes a coach.

He was the 2nd most efficient PG of our generation and the HOF generally rewards winning, finals MVP and olympic/fiba gold carry more weight than you think.

Chronz
11-28-2012, 05:58 PM
This is actually a pretty good point and Kevin Johnson is a great example. KJ played in fewer All Star games than Billups, but he was the superior scorer, he made far more All-NBA teams and he is one of the greatest distributing point guards in NBA history. The lack of a ring hurts KJ, but Billups still only has one. And KJ's Hall of Fame probability is still higher than Billups' (although Chauncey's will continue to grow).

I think KJ should be in the Hall of Fame, but he isn't. And if he isn't getting in the Hall of Fame than Chauncey never will either.
KJ was viewed as a choker, Billups was known as "Big Shot Billups" throughout his prime. He was at one point an MVP candidate.

KJ is underrated but Billups was clearly better, both objectively and subjectively.

mightybosstone
11-28-2012, 06:01 PM
He was the 2nd most efficient PG of our generation and the HOF generally rewards winning, finals MVP and olympic/fiba gold carry more weight than you think.

I thought about the Olympic and FIBA play, but it's not as if he was a huge contributor on those teams. He provided veteran leadership and solid defense, but he has always been just a role player in international play. As far as efficiency goes, KJ and Billups have an identical career WS/48 (.178) and Billups' is only likely to fall the older he gets. KJ also has the higher PER. But KJ isn't in the Hall. Should he be penalized for never playing on a team as talented as to the 2004 Detroit Pistons or for playing in an era with absolutely stacked teams in the Western Conference?

I don't know why this all of a sudden turned into a Kevin Johnson vs. Chauncey Billups debate for me, but if KJ isn't in, than Billups shouldn't be in.

Bishnoff
11-28-2012, 06:01 PM
This is actually a pretty good point and Kevin Johnson is a great example. KJ played in fewer All Star games than Billups, but he was the superior scorer, he made far more All-NBA teams and he is one of the greatest distributing point guards in NBA history. The lack of a ring hurts KJ, but Billups still only has one. And KJ's Hall of Fame probability is still higher than Billups' (although Chauncey's will continue to grow).

I think KJ should be in the Hall of Fame, but he isn't. And if he isn't getting in the Hall of Fame than Chauncey never will either.

Ha ha, you read my mind with KJ :)

There's plenty of other examples too but I can't help being a homer :p

rocket
11-28-2012, 06:03 PM
I thought about the Olympic and FIBA play, but it's not as if he was a huge contributor on those teams. He provided veteran leadership and solid defense, but he has always been just a role player in international play. As far as efficiency goes, KJ and Billups have an identical career WS/48 (.178) and Billups' is only likely to fall the older he gets. KJ also has the higher PER. But KJ isn't in the Hall. Should he be penalized for never playing on a team as talented as to the 2004 Detroit Pistons or for playing in an era with absolutely stacked teams in the Western Conference?

I don't know why this all of a sudden turned into a Kevin Johnson vs. Chauncey Billups debate for me, but if KJ isn't in, than Billups shouldn't be in.

Stop man your going to make me cry

Chronz
11-28-2012, 06:03 PM
it took dennis johnson forever to make it and he had a much better resume... so if people think billups is a shoe in they are mistaken
Good point but but hes in and it was widely considered a disgrace for it to have taken so long. I think the 2 are comparable but if I were doing the voting, I would think Billups has the better resume.

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 06:04 PM
kj was viewed as a choker, billups was known as "big shot billups" throughout his prime. he was at one point an mvp candidate.

kj is underrated but billups was clearly better, both objectively and subjectively.


gtfo

Rivera
11-28-2012, 06:05 PM
Should he? Hell no

Will he? Yes, the BBall HOF is a joke and allows good/very good players in

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 06:05 PM
Good point but but hes in and it was widely considered a disgrace for it to have taken so long. I think the 2 are comparable but if I were doing the voting, I would think Billups has the better resume.

dennis johnson had better career numbers and won 3 chips

Gram
11-28-2012, 06:06 PM
gtfo

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html

:rolleyes:

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 06:07 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html

:rolleyes:

5th in voting does not make you a candidate.... top 3 yes but hellll no to 5th

Gram
11-28-2012, 06:08 PM
5th in voting does not make you a candidate.... top 3 yes but hellll no to 5th

Are you serious? :facepalm:

Clippersfan86
11-28-2012, 06:09 PM
Are you serious? :facepalm:

He doesn't want anything to do with it if it doesn't fit his specific agenda LMAO.

can·di·date

"a person who is selected by others as a contestant for an office, honor, etc."

Billups was a candidate....

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 06:10 PM
Are you serious? :facepalm:


if 5th is a candidate you might as well say 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th are all candidates also

he had 4 other people in front of him... not to mention wade and duncan had better seasons

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 06:12 PM
you ever watch the nhl awards?... do they bring the top 5 players to vegas for the hart trophy?.... no they bring the top 3... saying 5th is a candidate is ludacrus

rocket
11-28-2012, 06:25 PM
5th in voting does not make you a candidate.... Top 3 yes but hellll no to 5th

lmfao

Chronz
11-28-2012, 06:25 PM
I thought about the Olympic and FIBA play, but it's not as if he was a huge contributor on those teams.
Its still a distinguishing factor, just making the cut is no small feat, especially given the hoopla around retaining gold nowadays, I think he will be repaid for his service on both squads. His coaches said he was the leader of the World Championship squad. These arent things you can say for KJ and it makes a world of a difference when you consider he was already the superior NBA player.



As far as efficiency goes, KJ and Billups have an identical career WS/48 (.178) and Billups' is only likely to fall the older he gets. KJ also has the higher PER. But KJ isn't in the Hall.
Well this is just between us right because we both know HOF voters prolly dont know of these stats. But for the sake of argument let me begin by asking, why would I care about Billups stats falling as he ages? This idea that what hes doing in the present can somehow detract from his prior greatness is ridiculous. By looking at career averages you are weighing every season/game played equally. Billups has outlasted the years served by KJ, so if his averages are going down it means his totals are still increasing. Neither are relevant to my argument that he was more efficient in his hey.

When you look at their best 8 year stretch the numbers look alot different. KJ has zero WS% years above .250 (Billups has 2), KJ has 3 years with a WS% above .200( vs 5 for Billups). You can stagger the seasons however you want (Peak, Top 3 Best seasons, 5 best seasons, 6,7,8), Billups has had the superior Peak/Prime run. If the career numbers are close its only because Billups is still finding ways to contribute for alot longer than KJ.

Thats not even touching on the playoff numbers where the debate becomes really one sided.




Should he be penalized for never playing on a team as talented as to the 2004 Detroit Pistons or for playing in an era with absolutely stacked teams in the Western Conference?

As sad as it is, thats what the voters do. That Finals MVP and gold + a longstanding reputation as a high intangibles guy will do wonders for his MVP stock. But if you were asking me I would say Im not punishing him for that, Im punishing him for not having a better case than Billups in any form.


I don't know why this all of a sudden turned into a Kevin Johnson vs. Chauncey Billups debate for me, but if KJ isn't in, than Billups shouldn't be in.

So long as you recognize your stance would not be supported by any tangible or objective evidence thats all good with me.

KingPosey
11-28-2012, 06:25 PM
Wow. 5.5 asp for a PG..that's not good. He is like a poor man's Jason Kidd though.

CB and Kidd Are very different types of players.

Chronz
11-28-2012, 06:26 PM
dennis johnson had better career numbers and won 3 chips

He has inferior numbers, identical Finals MVP, and doesnt have the same FIBA/Olympic success. But yes its a good comparison, not sure what more you want me to say.

Chronz
11-28-2012, 06:27 PM
This is a GREAT post today from Tsherkin on ****** that I saw regarding Billups impact.


"He's a career 49.6% eFG and 58.1% TS player because he draws fouls at .444 FTA/FGA over the course of his career, canning them at 89.4% FT. That, coupled with his career 38.9% 3P shooting (5 seasons at 40%+) makes him a HIGHLY efficient and extremely effective offensive player, to say nothing of what happens when you add in the fact that he's a good playmaker (just not a volume playmaker).

It makes sense to give him a bunch of touches, because he's absurdly efficient with them. You're talking about a guy who takes 11.2 FGA/g on his career, produces 15.5 ppg (9 straight seasons of 16.2+ ppg, at that) and produces a career 118 ORTG (7 years in a row of 120+)."

LOL your easily impressed

jmoney85
11-28-2012, 06:30 PM
He has inferior numbers, identical Finals MVP, and doesnt have the same FIBA/Olympic success. But yes its a good comparison, not sure what more you want me to say.

olympic success is a wash.... I could have won a gold medal with team usa


billups had better numbers but they were close... my point is that they are comparable and it took johnson forever to get in

Chronz
11-28-2012, 06:30 PM
you ever watch the nhl awards?... do they bring the top 5 players to vegas for the hart trophy?.... no they bring the top 3... saying 5th is a candidate is ludacrus

Actually its your opinion. You do not decide what the cut off is but most importantly your missing the point. I dont care what arbitrary number you arrive to, the fact remains he finished higher. KJ was never seen as that type of player.

Clippersfan86
11-28-2012, 06:30 PM
LOL your easily impressed


I've seen some great ones from you as well just thought it was very informative regarding his offensive contribution and didn't want to share it without giving him the credit. You guys are far more stat savvy than I so on my own I wouldn't know how to weigh metrics as logically. BTW great posts in this thread.

Chronz
11-28-2012, 06:35 PM
olympic success is a wash.... I could have won a gold medal with team usa


billups had better numbers but they were close... my point is that they are comparable and it took johnson forever to get in

You couldnt have been labeled the leader of any squad tho and imagine how easy you would have had it if you were playing back then... = not a wash.

They are comparable but I have Billups ahead and just because it took him forever doesn't change the fact that it was an outrage nor that it will take Billups just as long. Im sure you can cite examples of inferior players making it too.

jaydubb
11-28-2012, 06:37 PM
I just hate Gram... :shrug:

Ebbs
11-28-2012, 06:41 PM
I think he has to be.

Shlumpledink
11-28-2012, 06:43 PM
If he makes it in, then that opens the door for a lot of nba players to make it into the hall. I don't think he makes it, but he was a good player, wasn't the defender that a lot of people seem to think he is. He may add another championship or two to his resume which would certainly help his chances, but at this point he doesn't deserve it.

abe_froman
11-28-2012, 06:56 PM
yes.cant really think of why he wouldnt be

Hawkeye15
11-28-2012, 07:26 PM
Only those who know nothing about the HOF would say no.

what do you mean with this statement?

And yes, Billups is a HOF player. He isn't first ballot or anything, but his defensive ability, clutch play, and sheer ability to be a closer while on a team with a chip and 6 straight ECF's gets him in for sure. 5x all star, Finals MVP, 2 time all defense, 3 time all NBA, make this a no brainer.

Hawkeye15
11-28-2012, 07:27 PM
do people realize how much easier it is to get into the Basketball HOF than any other HOF?

Billups will get in. He isn't a first ballot guy, but he gets in.

JordansBulls
11-28-2012, 08:37 PM
With a finals mvp and 5 allstar games, yes.

bagwell368
11-28-2012, 09:34 PM
Wow. 5.5 asp for a PG..that's not good. He is like a poor man's Jason Kidd though.

If he played on the KG era Celts in his prime he'd have nearly as many assists per game as that stat counter Rondo, but the Celts would be holding at least one more title because he was a very bright, very efficient player.

There were years when the I found the NBA very hard to watch, but him, I could always watch him once he got his head on straight.

JasonJohnHorn
11-28-2012, 09:43 PM
Why would anybody hate you Gram?

Billups: Finals MVP. He's a champ and an MVP. He's got a strong case for the HOF.