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Chronz
11-27-2012, 12:27 AM
Name them for any of the following;

Iverson:

Bird:

Bron:

Duncan:

Shaq:

KG:

Magic:

MJ:

Kobe:

Hakeem:

Ewing:

Reggie Miller:





These moments can be an entire season, playoff series or a single game occurrence. However you define worst is up to you. To some, Kobe missing the playoffs is low, to others his performance in 04 was his lowest point.


Part of understanding a players greatness is acknowledging his shortcomings, everyone has them.

lakers4sho
11-27-2012, 12:51 AM
Magic: Tragic Johnson 1984 vs Celtics
Kobe: 39 point beatdown @ Boston Garden

Chronz
11-27-2012, 01:16 AM
Magic: Tragic Johnson 1984 vs Celtics
Kobe: 39 point beatdown @ Boston Garden

Any particular reason these stand out more than your 2nd choice?

mightybosstone
11-27-2012, 01:57 AM
I'm going solely off the top of my head, so I can't recall all of them and some might seem weaker than others...

Bron: Two easy ones... The Dallas series is the most obvious, but I would also say the Boston series in which he clearly checked out before the infamous "Decision" is a close second.

Duncan: It's hard to find a low point in his career, but the 08-09 postseason is sort of the first "Is the Spurs run over?" moment. They got beat pretty badly by the Mavs in five.

Shaq/Kobe: For me, both players share the biggest failures of both of their careers. They should have beaten the 2004 Pistons, and their egos never should have gotten in the way of their success as a team. If they could have gotten along and coexisted, the Lakers could have had a Jordanesque-like run of five or six titles.

KG: Can we just say his entire career with Minnesota aside from the Cassell/Sprewell years?

MJ: Everyone remembers Jordan winning six rings in six straight seasons with the two asterisk seasons in between when he was playing baseball. But that's total ********. He came back in the middle of the second season and the Bulls got manhandled by the Shaq/Penny Magic in the playoffs. Nothing bugs me more than when people say the Rockets two titles deserve asterisks, and this is why.

Hakeem: As my favorite all-time player, it's hard to think of the tough moments, but I can think of a few. In 1992, before I was ever a Rockets fan, there was talk of Hakeem being traded, because the Rockets hadn't had any success. The other two big ones I can think of is the failure of the 97-98 team with Barkley and Drexler and him leaving to go to Toronto. Anytime I see an image of him in a Raptors jersey, I immediately forget I ever saw that image and go to my happy place.

Ewing: Anytime he faced another good center in the playoffs, but the 93-94 series against Hakeem really stands out. Ewing choked so often, I wonder if his teammates ever tried to give him the Heimlich maneuver.

Chronz
11-27-2012, 02:33 PM
Any thoughts on Reggie?

JordansBulls
11-27-2012, 04:00 PM
Any series where the player lost with a better record/HCA and was the favorite is a bad moment.

JordansBulls
11-27-2012, 04:02 PM
Any thoughts on Reggie?

1999 vs Knicks. Should never have lost that series.

JordansBulls
11-27-2012, 04:08 PM
Magic: Tragic Johnson 1984 vs Celtics
Kobe: 39 point beatdown @ Boston Garden

Honestly those weren't that bad. Celtics both times were favorites. I would look more to series when those players were favorite to win but didn't.



I'm going solely off the top of my head, so I can't recall all of them and some might seem weaker than others...

Bron: Two easy ones... The Dallas series is the most obvious, but I would also say the Boston series in which he clearly checked out before the infamous "Decision" is a close second.

Duncan: It's hard to find a low point in his career, but the 08-09 postseason is sort of the first "Is the Spurs run over?" moment. They got beat pretty badly by the Mavs in five.

Shaq/Kobe: For me, both players share the biggest failures of both of their careers. They should have beaten the 2004 Pistons, and their egos never should have gotten in the way of their success as a team. If they could have gotten along and coexisted, the Lakers could have had a Jordanesque-like run of five or six titles.

KG: Can we just say his entire career with Minnesota aside from the Cassell/Sprewell years?

MJ: Everyone remembers Jordan winning six rings in six straight seasons with the two asterisk seasons in between when he was playing baseball. But that's total ********. He came back in the middle of the second season and the Bulls got manhandled by the Shaq/Penny Magic in the playoffs. Nothing bugs me more than when people say the Rockets two titles deserve asterisks, and this is why.

Hakeem: As my favorite all-time player, it's hard to think of the tough moments, but I can think of a few. In 1992, before I was ever a Rockets fan, there was talk of Hakeem being traded, because the Rockets hadn't had any success. The other two big ones I can think of is the failure of the 97-98 team with Barkley and Drexler and him leaving to go to Toronto. Anytime I see an image of him in a Raptors jersey, I immediately forget I ever saw that image and go to my happy place.

Ewing: Anytime he faced another good center in the playoffs, but the 93-94 series against Hakeem really stands out. Ewing choked so often, I wonder if his teammates ever tried to give him the Heimlich maneuver.

With regard to Ewing I wouldn't say that was a bad moment, Hakeem was the MVP and had HCA in that series. A worse moment for Ewing was 1995 vs the Pacers having HCA and losing game 7 at home and him missing the fingeroll at the buzzer.

For Duncan I would say 2001, getting swept with HCA is pretty bad and also in 2011 losing to the Grizzlies.

MJ - I wouldn't say the Magic series as the Magic were the #1 seed and the Bulls were the #5 seed, but if you are picking something then probably that to just pick something as he never lost when the favorite nor with HCA.


KG -2005-2007 (not making the playoffs in his absolute prime)

Bron - 2010 and 2011 as you have mentioned, but also I would say perhaps 2008 vs Boston, he shot 35% in that series.

Shaq/Kobe - 2004 obviously, but as individual 2011 for Kobe vs Mavs after being swept with HCA and for Shaq probably 1994 vs Indiana being swept with HCA and played badly in comparison to how he usually plays.

Hakeem - 1987 to the Sonics, should never have lost that series to a sub .500 team. Also was pretty bad vs Lakers in 1990 although Lakers were the favorite.

Magic - 1981 losing to a team below .500 and of course 1986 should never had lost to Houston.

Bird - Losing game 7 at home in 1982, getting swept with HCA in 1983, Also losing in 1990 to the Knicks after being up 2-0.

Iverson - The fact he hardly ever made the playoffs is the problem here, he only had 4 series where he had HCA.

mamba24
11-27-2012, 04:32 PM
It's hard to narrow down just one "worst moment"...

Iverson: Denver/Detroit/Memphis/2nd time around in Phila

Bird: Cant really think of one

Bron: "The Decision", disappearing in the Finals vs. Dallas, hairline

Duncan: Cant really think of one

Shaq: Coming into almost every training camp out of shape during the course of his NBA career, cant let go of bitterness towards DH12 post career

KG: I dont know who he did this too but I remember seeing it on ESPN... Giving an opponent a nut punch on a jump shot, "Anything is possibbbbbbbbbbbllllllllle!"

Magic: uh.... HIV....

MJ: Baseball and the Wizards

Kobe: Eagle Colorado, Kobe/Shaq feud, Kobe/Smush mini-feud, Game 7 in Phoenix where it appeared Kobe threw in the towel from opening tip

Hakeem: Changing his name from Hakeem to Akeem and back to Hakeem

Ewing: Miss layup vs the Pacers in the playoffs with the game/series on the line

Reggie Miller: Never being a better player than his sister... Ever...

Sactown
11-27-2012, 04:39 PM
Honestly those weren't that bad. Celtics both times were favorites. I would look more to series when those players were favorite to win but didn't.




With regard to Ewing I wouldn't say that was a bad moment, Hakeem was the MVP and had HCA in that series. A worse moment for Ewing was 1995 vs the Pacers having HCA and losing game 7 at home and him missing the fingeroll at the buzzer.

For Duncan I would say 2001, getting swept with HCA is pretty bad and also in 2011 losing to the Grizzlies.

MJ - I wouldn't say the Magic series as the Magic were the #1 seed and the Bulls were the #5 seed, but if you are picking something then probably that to just pick something as he never lost when the favorite nor with HCA.


KG -2005-2007 (not making the playoffs in his absolute prime)

Bron - 2010 and 2011 as you have mentioned, but also I would say perhaps 2008 vs Boston, he shot 35% in that series.

Shaq/Kobe - 2004 obviously, but as individual 2011 for Kobe vs Mavs after being swept with HCA and for Shaq probably 1994 vs Indiana being swept with HCA and played badly in comparison to how he usually plays.

Hakeem - 1987 to the Sonics, should never have lost that series to a sub .500 team. Also was pretty bad vs Lakers in 1990 although Lakers were the favorite.

Magic - 1981 losing to a team below .500 and of course 1986 should never had lost to Houston.

Bird - Losing game 7 at home in 1982, getting swept with HCA in 1983, Also losing in 1990 to the Knicks after being up 2-0.

Iverson - The fact he hardly ever made the playoffs is the problem here, he only had 4 series where he had HCA.

You over value HCA so much.. there's more to basketball than HCA and Vegas betting odds

Chronz
11-27-2012, 04:41 PM
Any series where the player lost with a better record/HCA and was the favorite is a bad moment.

False. Dont live or die with generalizations. Thats why people have a hard time taking you seriously these days JB, you ignore all concept of context and live by copy and paste.

JordansBulls
11-27-2012, 04:41 PM
You over value HCA so much.. there's more to basketball than HCA and Vegas betting odds

I understand that, and I understand that at times you lose as the favorite but at the same time when you are an elite player and superstar and you are the favorite you should win the series. It's one thing when you play a team that had a star player out for while and then came back and you lost but it is another when you had the better record all year long and you are playing a team your level or below and you lose as the favorite.

JordansBulls
11-27-2012, 04:45 PM
False. Dont live or die with generalizations. Thats why people have a hard time taking you seriously these days JB, you ignore all concept of context and live by copy and paste.

Well it depends. Barkley losing to MJ in 1993 and then losing to Hakeem in 1995 is not a big deal because at least he lost to superior players.

I've always felt that the team with the better record and the better Star Player should win the series.

the 2005 Suns had the best record but the Spurs had the best player in Duncan
2011 the Bulls had the best record, but the Heat had the better players (Wade, Lebron)


On the other hand, 2004 Lakers had the better record and the better star (Kobe, Shaq). 2005 Heat had the better record and better star (Wade, Shaq)
2011 Heat had the better record and star and higher SRS rating.

mamba24
11-27-2012, 04:47 PM
A lot of comments here are in reference to losing a series... I dont think I could ever put a series loss on the shoulders of one person no matter who it is. Basketball is a team game. It's never fair to blame a series loss on one guy.

JordansBulls
11-27-2012, 04:50 PM
A lot of comments here are in reference to losing a series... I dont think I could ever put a series loss on the shoulders of one person no matter who it is. Basketball is a team game. It's never fair to blame a series loss on one guy.

But why would one guy get most of the credit then as well. You can't say if they win it was because of so and so and when they lose as the favorite it is a team game. Now if you lose when you are the underdog against a team with more talent that is one thing, but when you have same talent or more and you lose as the favorite that is another.

Chronz
11-27-2012, 04:54 PM
With regard to Ewing I wouldn't say that was a bad moment, Hakeem was the MVP and had HCA in that series.
Its a good example. Ewing's team pushed it 7 with him providing lil offensively.


A worse moment for Ewing was 1995 vs the Pacers having HCA and losing game 7 at home and him missing the fingeroll at the buzzer.
Why? Pushing a team to 7 usually denotes a close series and losing on a final shot isnt that bad. Besides the Pacers had the superior SRS, any particular reason why this stands out more?


For Duncan I would say 2001, getting swept with HCA is pretty bad and also in 2011 losing to the Grizzlies.
The light switch Lakers? Shaq and Kobe at their absolute apex isnt that bad to me but its hard to find one for Duncan. The fact that the 2nd one you mentioned comes when Duncan is removed from his prime makes you realize just how consistently dominant he was in the playoffs.


MJ - I wouldn't say the Magic series as the Magic were the #1 seed and the Bulls were the #5 seed, but if you are picking something then probably that to just pick something as he never lost when the favorite nor with HCA.
Agreed. With only so many seasons to choose from, theres not much to dissect.



KG -2005-2007 (not making the playoffs in his absolute prime)

Solid choice


Shaq/Kobe - 2004 obviously, but as individual 2011 for Kobe vs Mavs after being swept with HCA and for Shaq probably 1994 vs Indiana being swept with HCA and played badly in comparison to how he usually plays.
Shaq was in his first playoff series. I think some leeway must be reserved for that. Its like saying Kobes lowest point was when he air balled all those 3's vs the Jazz. It may be technically true but only if your ignoring the weight of the moment. Like if Kobe airballs like that in his prime, its a far more degrading moment.


Hakeem - 1987 to the Sonics, should never have lost that series to a sub .500 team. Also was pretty bad vs Lakers in 1990 although Lakers were the favorite.
I dont remember those series, can you cite any specifics?


Magic - 1981 losing to a team below .500 and of course 1986 should never had lost to Houston.
Solid choices, the Tragic Johnson choice is decent but I think Magic was at his most cancerous the year you mentioned. Really interesting looking back on that year.


Bird - Losing game 7 at home in 1982, getting swept with HCA in 1983, Also losing in 1990 to the Knicks after being up 2-0.
Cmon man, Bird in 90? Why?

Sactown
11-27-2012, 05:07 PM
I understand that, and I understand that at times you lose as the favorite but at the same time when you are an elite player and superstar and you are the favorite you should win the series. It's one thing when you play a team that had a star player out for while and then came back and you lost but it is another when you had the better record all year long and you are playing a team your level or below and you lose as the favorite.

If you end a long season of 82 games and you have 1 more win than the opposition that would give you HCA.. does that mean you're the better team? Not really, could mean you have an easier schedule...

What about match ups? Like the Heat for example.. they don't match up well against teams with dominate bigs.. I could see the Heat losing to the Grizzlies because I find it to be their weakness and I don't give a **** what Vegas says about it, or anyone else who says they're the favorites.. because all favorites are, is a prediction.

Matchups will always mean more to me than season records or predictions, because it's easier to win against a random team every other night than face a team you don't match up well against for 7 games in a row. weaknesses are exposed more during the playoffs than during the regular season. You could obviously see that in Cleveland during the playoffs when teams would stifle Lebron and make his role players beat them..

And as long as you use this
HCA or Favorites!! as your only argument I will never respect your opinion as a poster
OH! Also stop using All-Star appearances as a measurement of talent or what players produced in their prime when they're in their twilight years.

JordansBulls
11-27-2012, 05:08 PM
Why? Pushing a team to 7 usually denotes a close series and losing on a final shot isnt that bad. Besides the Pacers had the superior SRS, any particular reason why this stands out more?

This was the series that Rik Smits played Ewing to a standstill
Smits 23/6 on 60% FG
Ewing 19/9 on 50% FG



The light switch Lakers? Shaq and Kobe at their absolute apex isnt that bad to me but its hard to find one for Duncan. The fact that the 2nd one you mentioned comes when Duncan is removed from his prime makes you realize just how consistently dominant he was in the playoffs.

2004 vs Lakers is another one.




Shaq was in his first playoff series. I think some leeway must be reserved for that. Its like saying Kobes lowest point was when he air balled all those 3's vs the Jazz. It may be technically true but only if your ignoring the weight of the moment. Like if Kobe airballs like that in his prime, its a far more degrading moment.

Yeah but Indiana had never been out of the 1st round in the NBA prior to that moment.



I dont remember those series, can you cite any specifics?

Yes the Rockets lose with HCA to a team below .500 . Dale Ellis went off in this series and Rockets lost first two games of series at home.

Against the Jazz, Dantley dominated and the Rockets had the twin towers.




Cmon man, Bird in 90? Why?

Celtics were 52-30 that year while the Knicks were 45-37.


Mchale, Bird, Parish, Lewis and DJ all played 75+ games that year.


In the 1st round series the Celtics were up 2-0 and then lost 3 in a row including the last game of the series at home.

In that playoffs:

Bird averaged 24/9/9 on 44% with a PER of 21
Mchale averaged 22/9/3 on 61% with a PER of 20
Parish averaged 16/10/3 on 57% with a PER of 19
Lewis averaged 20/5/5 on 60% with a PER of 18
DJ averaged 14/3/6 on 48% with a PER of 12


For the Knicks Ewing averaged 28/10/3 on 52% with a PER of 25 and then Wilkins was the next highest scorer at 15/4/5 on 46% FG with a PER of 16.

TomahawkChop 10
11-27-2012, 05:13 PM
Bron: The Decision

KG: Cancer comments --> Villinueva

Magic: HIV positive

MJ: Retiring & trying to play MLB

Kobe: Requesting to be traded

mightybosstone
11-27-2012, 05:23 PM
Any thoughts on Reggie?
Reggie's tough, because he's remembered by most as being a much better player than he actually was, and people remember only his big shots and huge moments in the postseason rather than all the other mediocre moments in his career. It's easier to remember the big moments of his career rather than the down ones, because there are so few.

With regard to Ewing I wouldn't say that was a bad moment, Hakeem was the MVP and had HCA in that series. A worse moment for Ewing was 1995 vs the Pacers having HCA and losing game 7 at home and him missing the fingeroll at the buzzer.
Yeah, but look at his numbers in that series and you'll see what I'm talking about. Hakeem absolutely destroyed him.


Hakeem - 1987 to the Sonics, should never have lost that series to a sub .500 team. Also was pretty bad vs Lakers in 1990 although Lakers were the favorite.
I fail to see how these are low points, really. Look at Hakeem's postseason numbers in 87 and the fact that the Rockets only finished 3-4 games ahead of Seattle and you'll see what I'm talking about. And losing to the Lakers in 90? The Rockets were a .500 team playing on the road against a 63-win team with Magic, Worthy, Green, Scott and a young Vlade Divac. How is that a low point?


Magic - 1981 losing to a team below .500 and of course 1986 should never had lost to Houston.
I get what you're saying about 86, but you're REALLY underrating that Houston team. They had the disgustingly talented big man duo of Hakeem and Sampson and a ton of really talented guards that were all pretty much gone the next season because of cocaine addictions. If cocaine and Sampson's knees hadn't killed that team, those Rockets could have won multiple titles in the late 80s.

mngopher35
11-27-2012, 05:44 PM
For Lebron it has to be the 2011 finals, that was bad. I see people putting that celtic series and I just don't get it. He had one really bad game and overall didnt have a great series but they were playing a still great defense who was completely focused on him alone. I'm not too surprised he had below average series for himself. Look at what Kobe did in the finals vs that same defense (won finals mvp):
2010 Lebron vs Boston ECF

51/114 44.5% 26.83ppg 7.17 apg 9.33 rpg

2010 Kobe vs Boston Finals

66/163 .405% 28.57 3.86 apg 8rpg

Its not a huge difference and yet people act as if Lebron played horrible that series. He also did a great job defending pierce (who had a really bad series). Yes he looked defeated and played very bad in game 5, but overall it wasn't even remotely as bad as his disappearing act in the 2011 finals.

Alayla
11-27-2012, 06:45 PM
Honestly those weren't that bad. Celtics both times were favorites. I would look more to series when those players were favorite to win but didn't.




With regard to Ewing I wouldn't say that was a bad moment, Hakeem was the MVP and had HCA in that series. A worse moment for Ewing was 1995 vs the Pacers having HCA and losing game 7 at home and him missing the fingeroll at the buzzer.

For Duncan I would say 2001, getting swept with HCA is pretty bad and also in 2011 losing to the Grizzlies.

MJ - I wouldn't say the Magic series as the Magic were the #1 seed and the Bulls were the #5 seed, but if you are picking something then probably that to just pick something as he never lost when the favorite nor with HCA.


KG -2005-2007 (not making the playoffs in his absolute prime)

Bron - 2010 and 2011 as you have mentioned, but also I would say perhaps 2008 vs Boston, he shot 35% in that series.

Shaq/Kobe - 2004 obviously, but as individual 2011 for Kobe vs Mavs after being swept with HCA and for Shaq probably 1994 vs Indiana being swept with HCA and played badly in comparison to how he usually plays.

Hakeem - 1987 to the Sonics, should never have lost that series to a sub .500 team. Also was pretty bad vs Lakers in 1990 although Lakers were the favorite.

Magic - 1981 losing to a team below .500 and of course 1986 should never had lost to Houston.

Bird - Losing game 7 at home in 1982, getting swept with HCA in 1983, Also losing in 1990 to the Knicks after being up 2-0.

Iverson - The fact he hardly ever made the playoffs is the problem here, he only had 4 series where he had HCA.

that is by far the weakest statment in the world thats more of a sign of poor help than anything there is ALOT of low points in iversons carrer dude no reason to reach that far

Potential33
11-27-2012, 06:59 PM
Iverson: Sitting on the bench at Memphis


Bron: Choking in Playoffs


Shaq: Staying in the league when he clearly shouldnt have.


KG: Low Blowing Channing Frye


Magic: Getting Aids, unfortunately.


MJ: Washington/Baseball/Space Jam


Kobe: Raping a Girl.

ManRam
11-27-2012, 07:04 PM
You over value HCA so much.. there's more to basketball than HCA and Vegas betting odds

The only reason he cares so much about it is because he's a Jordan fanboy. There's a reason why no one else talks about it 1/100th as much as he does.

gaughan333
11-27-2012, 07:19 PM
if it hasn't been posted...are you talking about practice?

TomahawkChop 10
11-27-2012, 10:42 PM
if it hasn't been posted...are you talking about practice?

No no, not a game... We talkin' bout practice!

Rylz
11-27-2012, 11:29 PM
Hakeem: As my favorite all-time player, it's hard to think of the tough moments, but I can think of a few. In 1992, before I was ever a Rockets fan, there was talk of Hakeem being traded, because the Rockets hadn't had any success. The other two big ones I can think of is the failure of the 97-98 team with Barkley and Drexler and him leaving to go to Toronto. Anytime I see an image of him in a Raptors jersey, I immediately forget I ever saw that image and go to my happy place.
I do the same thing every time I see Malone in a Lakers uniform...

Armsz10
11-27-2012, 11:34 PM
Iverson- Not finishing his whole career in Philly