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BklynKnicks3
11-26-2012, 01:41 PM
1. Lebron
2. Melo
3. Kobe
4. Cp3
5.harden
6. westbrook
7howard
8. Zbo
9 dwill
10 bosh/rondo

Baller1
11-26-2012, 01:43 PM
:laugh2: agreed, Durant definitely has not been a top 10 player this season.

ee
11-26-2012, 01:45 PM
Dwill at 9? I thought he's having his worst start so far.... Lopez is carrying the team....

BklynKnicks3
11-26-2012, 01:47 PM
sorry left out durant he is 3rd push every1 down a spot

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-26-2012, 01:50 PM
Kobe should be first, leading the league in WS and playing the best basketball of his career.

And no way is Melo is that high lol

JiffyMix88
11-26-2012, 01:54 PM
ok no surprise another NY team wanting people to notice their players and blow their ***** up more. no thank you

BklynKnicks3
11-26-2012, 01:54 PM
Kobe should be first, leading the league in WS and playing the best basketball of his career.

And no way is Melo is that high lol

funny u qoute everything i said and iam looking more brilliant by the minute. Chandler defense has sucked this year he needs shumpert hounding the guards

nickdymez
11-26-2012, 01:55 PM
Kobe should be first, leading the league in WS and playing the best basketball of his career.

And no way is Melo is that high lol

Why dont you think Melo should be that high?

BklynKnicks3
11-26-2012, 01:58 PM
u cant possibly put melo lower then 3. If u got Durant then at least it a argument

LongIslandIcedZ
11-26-2012, 02:00 PM
Melo is on this "top 10 through 12 games" list. I dont think anyone would really argue it, especially with his defense stepping up and he's crashing the boards much better.

Lebron is 1.

I havent watched enough of all the other players to compile my own list though.

LakersA's49ers
11-26-2012, 02:01 PM
Why the **** is Rondo ranked 10th. Kobe is definitely top 3 as well. Last i checked, best plus/minus in the league. Facilitating well w/o nash. He's played spirited ball

b@llhog24
11-26-2012, 02:01 PM
Bron
Cp3/Kobe
Durant
Duncan
Dwight
Harden
Kyrie
Melo
Marc Gasol
Bosh/Lopez

b@llhog24
11-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Throw Rondo somewhere in there too.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-26-2012, 02:02 PM
u cant possibly put melo lower then 3. If u got Durant then at least it a argument

Melo is 4th in his team in win shares.

Kobe's leading the league in that category.

coryd238
11-26-2012, 02:02 PM
1. Lebron
2a. Kobe
2b. Melo
2c. Durant

Should be the top 4. Kobe-Durant are interchangeable in my opinion.

b@llhog24
11-26-2012, 02:03 PM
Melo is 4th in his team in win shares.

Kobe's leading the league in that category.

"Advanced stats are for losers bro." nickdymez

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-26-2012, 02:04 PM
Kobe has more than x2 WS than Melo, how the **** can you put him behind Melo?

Baller1
11-26-2012, 02:04 PM
1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Kobe
4. CP3
5. Duncan
6. Melo
7. Rondo
8. Harden
9. Westbrook
10. Bosh

And I ****ing hate Kobe. But gotta give props where they're due.

b@llhog24
11-26-2012, 02:05 PM
Kobe has more than x2 WS than Melo, how the **** can you put him behind Melo?

"Cause Melo is winning games as the man, he didn't have another player who took his team to the finals in Dwight, and a two time MVP in Nash."

--#JBLogic

Baller1
11-26-2012, 02:07 PM
"Cause Melo is winning games as the man, he didn't have another player who took his team to the finals in Dwight, and a two time MVP in Nash."

--#JBLogic

And Kobe has had HCA for most of his games so far this season.

#JBLogic

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-26-2012, 02:08 PM
"Cause Melo is winning games as the man, he didn't have another player who took his team to the finals in Dwight, and a two time MVP in Nash."

--#JBLogic

Melo's teammates are playing amazing basketball.

b@llhog24
11-26-2012, 02:08 PM
And Kobe has had HCA for most of his games so far this season.

#JBLogic

:laugh:

TheNumber37
11-26-2012, 02:09 PM
the win share arguments is moot for teams that share the ball well.
melo is top 3 because he's playing great basketball on both ends of the floor and his teammates are responding. can't really measure that in WS, especially with all of his hockey assists this year.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 02:11 PM
the win share arguments is moot for teams that share the ball well.
melo is top 3 because he's playing great basketball on both ends of the floor and his teammates are responding. can't really measure that in WS, especially with all of his hockey assists this year.

I could say the exact same for Durant. He gets a ton of hockey assists as well... But he's still putting up better numbers with a basically identical record.

b@llhog24
11-26-2012, 02:11 PM
the win share arguments is moot for teams that share the ball well.
melo is top 3 because he's playing great basketball on both ends of the floor and his teammates are responding. can't really measure that in WS, especially with all of his hockey assists this year.

Basically everything you said was false. Stats can only quantify what actually happens. Melo's win-shares are lower than Kobe's, Bron, Cp3's, etc because he's not as productive as them.

Sactown
11-26-2012, 02:19 PM
Melo is on par to do what Melo usually does? He's just been alright... The Knicks have played well, but Melo, has just been Melo, but slightly more efficient.. but it's not like he's posting career highs.

coryd238
11-26-2012, 02:26 PM
Melo is on par to do what Melo usually does? He's just been alright... The Knicks have played well, but Melo, has just been Melo, but slightly more efficient.. but it's not like he's posting career highs.

The most idiotic thing I've seen in this thread, besides the win shares argument. You obviously haven't watched a single Knicks game this year.

Minimal
11-26-2012, 02:27 PM
Ahh NY and Lakers fans argue who had a better season kobe or melo...

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. CP3
6. Chris Bosh
7. Rondo
8. Westbrook
9. Melo
10. Kyle Lowry

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 02:28 PM
1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Kobe
4. CP3
5. Duncan
6. Melo
7. Rondo
8. Harden
9. Westbrook
10. Bosh

And I ****ing hate Kobe. But gotta give props where they're due.

I don't have the time to individually check everyone's stats, but I would imagine my list would look very similar to this one. Lebron is clearly in a class of his own, while CP3 and Durant are right behind him. But Kobe and Timmy look like someone jumped in a time machine and borrowed the mid-2000s versions. Normally I wouldn't even allow Melo to be in this discussion, but he is clearly the best player on a very good Knicks team (despite his lack of advanced statistical production). Harden, Rondo and Bosh have both taken on bigger loads this season, while Westbrook has dropped off a tad, but still is worthy of top 10 consideration.

Lowry and Marc Gasol should also get some consideration, and Dwight should always at least be in the conversation, although his numbers have dropped (as expected) since becoming a Laker.

LoveMeOrHateMe
11-26-2012, 02:31 PM
1.Lebron
1b.Kobe
3.Durant
4.Cp3
4b.Melo
duncan
rondo
dwight
z-bo
kyrie

last 5 in no particular order

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 02:33 PM
1. Durant (playing the best defense of the bunch of wings)
2. Lebron
3. Kobe
4. CP3
5. Duncan
6. Melo
7. Bosh
8. Harden
9. Westbrook
10. Wade

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duranke01&y1=2013&p2=jamesle01&y2=2013&p3=paulch01&y3=2013&p4=bryanko01&y4=2013&p5=anthoca01&y5=2013

GrkGawdofWalkz
11-26-2012, 02:36 PM
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Tim Duncan
Caremlo Anthony
James Harden
Zach Randolph/Chris Bosh
Rajon Rondo
Jrue Holliday

I changed things up a little bit more I guess. Damien Lillard is also very close to the top 10 in my opinion. As are Aldridge, Gay and a few others.

strahan92osi72
11-26-2012, 02:36 PM
No way should Westbrook be in the top five. He has single handedly lost games for his team with his bricks/poor decision making. I like Westy, but no way has he been a top five player this year.

Sactown
11-26-2012, 02:37 PM
The most idiotic thing I've seen in this thread, besides the win shares argument. You obviously haven't watched a single Knicks game this year.

Look at his stats...
22.8 Per (normal) EFG% of 52.6 (career high) TRB% 10.8 (normal) Asst% 11 (21 last season so half as much) Ortg 108 (2 higher than last season) DRtg 107 (5 worse than last season) WS projected in a 55 game season with this production 5.95 (6.3 last season) He's playing average.. the numbers say it... it's not just WS it's everything.. he turns the ball over more this season and his assists are down by a lot. he shoots the ball more than last season but is more affective. He gets to the line LESS and rebounds about the same.. he's not top 5 this season... THE KNICKS HAVE PLAYED WELL, Melo is normal

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 02:38 PM
1. Durant (playing the best defense of the bunch of wings)
2. Lebron
3. Kobe
4. CP3
5. Duncan
6. Melo
7. Bosh
8. Harden
9. Westbrook
10. Wade

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duranke01&y1=2013&p2=jamesle01&y2=2013&p3=paulch01&y3=2013&p4=bryanko01&y4=2013&p5=anthoca01&y5=2013
JB, it's hard to take you seriously sometimes when your Lebron hate is so strong. Anyone who doesn't think Lebron is the best player in the NBA is completely delusional. Regardless of who is rebounding better or playing better defense (it's extremely close), Lebron is the absolute superior playmaker and it's not even debatable.

I would love to hear a legit justification for why Durant is playing better basketball right now than Lebron James.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 02:42 PM
I don't have the time to individually check everyone's stats, but I would imagine my list would look very similar to this one. Lebron is clearly in a class of his own, while CP3 and Durant are right behind him. But Kobe and Timmy look like someone jumped in a time machine and borrowed the mid-2000s versions. Normally I wouldn't even allow Melo to be in this discussion, but he is clearly the best player on a very good Knicks team (despite his lack of advanced statistical production). Harden, Rondo and Bosh have both taken on bigger loads this season, while Westbrook has dropped off a tad, but still is worthy of top 10 consideration.

Lowry and Marc Gasol should also get some consideration, and Dwight should always at least be in the conversation, although his numbers have dropped (as expected) since becoming a Laker.

Yeah I didn't look into any stats either, just kinda went off what I've seen and what I know.

Lowry's problem is his lack of actually playing, but he was definitely performing amazingly. Gasol is actually having his worst defensive rebounding season of his career, and it's hurting Memphis on that regard (they're bottom 5 in defensive rebounding). That hurts Gasol's argument for me as well.

strahan92osi72
11-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Look at his stats...
22.8 Per (normal) EFG% of 52.6 (career high) TRB% 10.8 (normal) Asst% 11 (21 last season so half as much) Ortg 108 (2 higher than last season) DRtg 107 (5 worse than last season) WS projected in a 55 game season with this production 5.95 (6.3 last season) He's playing average.. the numbers say it... it's not just WS it's everything.. he turns the ball over more this season and his assists are down by a lot. he shoots the ball more than last season but is more affective. He gets to the line LESS and rebounds about the same.. he's not top 5 this season... THE KNICKS HAVE PLAYED WELL, Melo is normal

You're delusional. 3rd in the league in scoring, much improved defense, terrific rebounding (doesn't have to average 9 rpg playing with Chandler). He's an MVP candidate for sure, stop with the blind disrespect.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 02:43 PM
JB, it's hard to take you seriously sometimes when your Lebron hate is so strong. Anyone who doesn't think Lebron is the best player in the NBA is completely delusional. Regardless of who is rebounding better or playing better defense (it's extremely close), Lebron is the absolute superior playmaker and it's not even debatable.

I would love to hear a legit justification for why Durant is playing better basketball right now than Lebron James.

Except the question was who are the top 10 thru 12 games of the season, not who is the best player in the NBA period.
So I answered the question. Otherwise my list would have to include guys like Dwight Howard, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.
Durant is playing just as good on offense and he is playing better on the defensive end as well. He is rebounding better and he is putting more effort on defense. He has twice as many steals and more blocks as well.

dnewguy
11-26-2012, 02:45 PM
Season's best so far

LBJ
Durant
Zach Randolf
Kobe
Harden

nickdymez
11-26-2012, 02:47 PM
Melo is 4th in his team in win shares.

Kobe's leading the league in that category.

So the 3 people that are ahead of melo in "Win Shares" could carry the knicks without Melo? And still have the same record?

BklynKnicks3
11-26-2012, 02:49 PM
You dont have to wear red shoes and a red nose to be a clown. Melo is top 3 and it cant even be argued Kobe has been solid but he is .500 with dwight howard u cant be serious

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 02:51 PM
Except the question was who are the top 10 thru 12 games of the season, not who is the best player in the NBA period.
So I answered the question. Otherwise my list would have to include guys like Dwight Howard, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.
Durant is playing just as good on offense and he is playing better on the defensive end as well. He is rebounding better and he is putting more effort on defense. He has twice as many steals and more blocks as well.

Durant also has far fewer assists and far more turnovers, but you're conveniently glossing over that fact. And Durant may have more steals and (barely) more blocks, but that doesn't make him a better defender. I'd easily take Lebron defensively over Durant.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 02:53 PM
You dont have to wear red shoes and a red nose to be a clown. Melo is top 3 and it cant even be argued Kobe has been solid but he is .500 with dwight howard u cant be serious

How has Melo been better than Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Paul or Duncan? All are superior defensive players and all have been superior in terms of scoring efficiency. He might be the best player on the Knicks, but their success this year has more to do with the play of their defense and less to do with anything Melo is doing, IMO.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 02:56 PM
Durant also has far fewer assists and far more turnovers, but you're conveniently glossing over that fact. And Durant may have more steals and (barely) more blocks, but that doesn't make him a better defender. I'd easily take Lebron defensively over Durant.

Not to me. Especially when guys at your same position average as much or more than you for an entire playoff series. But that is another matter. Not to mention leading a team that is 25th in defensive efficiency as well.

nickdymez
11-26-2012, 03:00 PM
JB, it's hard to take you seriously sometimes when your Lebron hate is so strong. Anyone who doesn't think Lebron is the best player in the NBA is completely delusional. Regardless of who is rebounding better or playing better defense (it's extremely close), Lebron is the absolute superior playmaker and it's not even debatable.

I would love to hear a legit justification for why Durant is playing better basketball right now than Lebron James.

This is why people hate Lebron like they do. If someone doesnt feel that Lebron is the best player "On the planet", let them feel that way. Dont call someone a hater because of it. No one is "delusional" for saying they think Kevin Durant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. Let the guys nuts breathe.

nickdymez
11-26-2012, 03:01 PM
You dont have to wear red shoes and a red nose to be a clown. Melo is top 3 and it cant even be argued Kobe has been solid but he is .500 with dwight howard u cant be serious

Lakers fired the coach after 5 games right?

Bravo95
11-26-2012, 03:01 PM
If Lowry and Holiday are gonna be thrown on this list, so should Jeff Teague. Handling the increased workload as well as anyone could want, just needs his coach to quit taking him out of the game to satisfy other players' egos.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=teaguje01&y1=2013&p2=holidjr01&y2=2013&p3=lowryky01&y3=2013

Baller1
11-26-2012, 03:06 PM
Durant also has far fewer assists and far more turnovers, but you're conveniently glossing over that fact. And Durant may have more steals and (barely) more blocks, but that doesn't make him a better defender. I'd easily take Lebron defensively over Durant.

The gap is closing rather quickly though. Durant is slowly becoming a very similar player to Lebron, with Lebron still having the obvious overwhelming advantage in passing/taking care of the ball.

I'm a fan of both players, so it's not my bias toward Durant speaking here. Durant is approaching Lebron level, in my opinion.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 03:08 PM
This is why people hate Lebron like they do. If someone doesnt feel that Lebron is the best player "On the planet", let them feel that way. Dont call someone a hater because of it. No one is "delusional" for saying they think Kevin Durant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. Let the guys nuts breathe.

This. Not to mention I didn't even say Durant was better than Lebron I just said he has been thru the first 12 games or so.

Il Mago50
11-26-2012, 03:15 PM
1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Melo
4. Kobe
5. Rondo
6. Paul
7. Randolph
8. Harden
9. Westbrook
10. Duncan

Dwight has no place on this list right now, the guy hasn't been a difference maker, has consistently disappeared in games, etc. Rondo is putting up numbers that are superior to Nash's first MVP season although he's being hurt by the inconsistency of his teammates in terms of winning games. CP3 has that same effect but he just doesn't look right right now to me

mvb815
11-26-2012, 03:15 PM
You're delusional. 3rd in the league in scoring, much improved defense, terrific rebounding (doesn't have to average 9 rpg playing with Chandler). He's an MVP candidate for sure, stop with the blind disrespect.

this is the best argument i've seen so far

by that logic kobe doesn't have to get rebounds or assists because he has howard and nash

hell, gasol doesn't have to do anything, he has howard for boards, nash for assists, and kobe for scoring. i guess he's an mvp candidate

BSplaya2121
11-26-2012, 03:17 PM
1. Lebron
2a. Kobe
2b. Melo
2c. Durant

Should be the top 4. Kobe-Durant are interchangeable in my opinion.

This is a reasonable list that i agree with

elledaddy
11-26-2012, 03:19 PM
The most idiotic thing I've seen in this thread, besides the win shares argument. You obviously haven't watched a single Knicks game this year.


Look at his stats...
22.8 Per (normal) EFG% of 52.6 (career high) TRB% 10.8 (normal) Asst% 11 (21 last season so half as much) Ortg 108 (2 higher than last season) DRtg 107 (5 worse than last season) WS projected in a 55 game season with this production 5.95 (6.3 last season) He's playing average.. the numbers say it... it's not just WS it's everything.. he turns the ball over more this season and his assists are down by a lot. he shoots the ball more than last season but is more affective. He gets to the line LESS and rebounds about the same.. he's not top 5 this season... THE KNICKS HAVE PLAYED WELL, Melo is normal



He simply said that you haven't actually watched a Knicks game this year and then you turned into an advanced stats whore. Sooooo have you watched a game or not? It seems like you're trying to say that EVERYBODY on the Knicks is PLAYING WELL( ur words) but Melo. Here is your words.....

"The KNICKS HAVE PLAYED WELL" , Melo has been normal( so he haven't played well with the rest of the knicks?) Also factoring in that the Knicks have played the strongest schedule thus far, I think Melo should get some credit.

mvb815
11-26-2012, 03:24 PM
He simply said that you haven't actually watched a Knicks game this year and then you turned into an advanced stats whore. Sooooo have you watched a game or not? It seems like you're trying to say that EVERYBODY on the Knicks is PLAYING WELL( ur words) but Melo. Here is your words.....

"The KNICKS HAVE PLAYED WELL" , Melo has been normal( so he haven't played well with the rest of the knicks?) Also factoring in that the Knicks have played the strongest schedule thus far, I think Melo should get some credit.

the strongest schedule? 76ers twice without bynum, dallas twice without dirk, magic, pacers no granger, hornets, and pistons are 8/12 games

knicks have been very fortunate so far

justinnum1
11-26-2012, 03:25 PM
sorry left out durant he is 2nd push every1 down a spot

fixed.

Bravo95
11-26-2012, 03:33 PM
Also factoring in that the Knicks have played the strongest schedule thus far, I think Melo should get some credit.

the strongest schedule? 76ers twice without bynum, dallas twice without dirk, magic, pacers no granger, hornets, and pistons are 8/12 games

knicks have been very fortunate so far
Yup, NYK is only 15th in SOS entering today.

Alayla
11-26-2012, 03:36 PM
1. Lebron
2. Melo
3. Kobe
4. Cp3
5.harden
6. westbrook
7howard
8. Zbo
9 dwill
10 bosh/rondo

It hurts me to say it becuase i aruged in his favor all offseason but D will is NOT a top 10 player in the NBA right now Hell he might not even be top 5 at his position right now.

Gram
11-26-2012, 03:36 PM
Another bad thread by BklnKnicks3.

Alayla
11-26-2012, 03:37 PM
the strongest schedule? 76ers twice without bynum, dallas twice without dirk, magic, pacers no granger, hornets, and pistons are 8/12 games

knicks have been very fortunate so far

The sixers have been very good even without Bynum so...

Alayla
11-26-2012, 03:39 PM
u cant possibly put melo lower then 3. If u got Durant then at least it a argument

1. LBJ
2. Kobe
3. Durant.....

where would Melo fit in?

Alayla
11-26-2012, 03:42 PM
1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Kobe
4. CP3
5. Duncan
6. Melo
7. Rondo
8. Harden
9. Westbrook
10. Bosh

And I ****ing hate Kobe. But gotta give props where they're due.

This looks much better

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 03:45 PM
Except the question was who are the top 10 thru 12 games of the season, not who is the best player in the NBA period.
So I answered the question. Otherwise my list would have to include guys like Dwight Howard, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.
Durant is playing just as good on offense and he is playing better on the defensive end as well. He is rebounding better and he is putting more effort on defense. He has twice as many steals and more blocks as well.

Through the first 12 games LeBron has been better than KD in almost every aspect in which you posted. Not making much sense here. It honestly seems like LeBron hate if you ask me.

I really don't buy the whole putting more effort on D either. I've watch 4 Thunder games and 3 Heat games this season and more than a fair share of highlights for both and really haven't seen the "more effort" by KD in all honesty.

shep33
11-26-2012, 03:46 PM
I'm a huge Melo fan, but there is no way he's playing better than Kobe.

Kobe has a PER 26.08 to Melo's 22.85
Kobe has a better FG%, FT%, 3 more assists per game, Steals, WS, and I believe has the best +/- in the NBA. Could be wrong about the last stat... also he leads the league in scoring.

shep33
11-26-2012, 03:47 PM
1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Kobe
4. CP3
5. Duncan
6. Melo
7. Rondo
8. Harden
9. Westbrook
10. Bosh

And I ****ing hate Kobe. But gotta give props where they're due.

This list looks solid, although surprisingly CP3 hasn't put up his normally amazing numbers.

JiffyMix88
11-26-2012, 03:49 PM
This list looks solid, although surprisingly CP3 hasn't put up his normally amazing numbers.

Have you seen their bench?

BklynKnicks3
11-26-2012, 03:53 PM
jamal crawford has been a top 20 player this year #facts

coryd238
11-26-2012, 03:53 PM
> Claims you haven't watched a single game.
> Refutes that point by using stats.

Lol PSD.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 03:54 PM
I think Baller's list is really the best thus far.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 03:55 PM
jamal crawford has been a top 20 player this year #facts

Oh god.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 03:57 PM
Through the first 12 games LeBron has been better than KD in almost every aspect in which you posted. Not making much sense here. It honestly seems like LeBron hate if you ask me.

I really don't buy the whole putting more effort on D either. I've watch 4 Thunder games and 3 Heat games this season and more than a fair share of highlights for both and really haven't seen the "more effort" by KD in all honesty.

No he hasn't. Durant is getting more steals by double more blocks, has more defensive win shares and has a better defensive rating. He is scoring more as well and rebounding more. Lebron has him in assists and turnovers.

Gram
11-26-2012, 04:01 PM
jamal crawford has been a top 20 player this year #facts

You make awful threads. #facts

Baller1
11-26-2012, 04:03 PM
I think Baller's list is really the best thus far.

:hi5:

SteBO
11-26-2012, 04:06 PM
1. LeBron
2. Kobe (I had to put him here because of his insane efficiency and playmaking ability. Lakers' current record is far from his fault.)
3. Durant
4. Melo
5. CP3
6. Duncan
7. Rondo
8. Westbrook
9. Harden
10. Bosh

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 04:09 PM
Is there anyone who has watched every single game for every single player this season? If so can you please stand up so we can all deposit some much needed funding into your account because you clearly don't have a job or a life.

The same guys who are claiming that others haven't watched Melo play haven't watched Durant play, nor Duncan, nor Holiday etc. I have watched 2 Knicks games in its entirty this season (both against the 76ers) and parts of about 3 others. Like I said earlier I have watched 3 Thunder games (vs us two nights ago against the Clips, Spurs and Bulls) from what I have witnessed Durant has been better than Melo and the margin really isn't that small either. Better scorer, better in the clutch, better rebounder, better defensive, by far better passing the ball. IMO from watching the games I have watched, reading the reports and watching the highlights there is no question that KD is better than Melo to start this season.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 04:12 PM
Not to me. Especially when guys at your same position average as much or more than you for an entire playoff series. But that is another matter. Not to mention leading a team that is 25th in defensive efficiency as well.
Lebron is the better defender. Period. He is asked to do more defensively than any non-big in the NBA playing on a team without a true NBA center. And I couldn't care less how a player performs at his same position in a playoff series. If you're going to make that argument, how about the fact that Lebron clearly outperformed Durant in the Finals last season. Or did you want to ignore that fact, as well?


This is why people hate Lebron like they do. If someone doesnt feel that Lebron is the best player "On the planet", let them feel that way. Dont call someone a hater because of it. No one is "delusional" for saying they think Kevin Durant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. Let the guys nuts breathe.
For one, I'm not a Heat fan. I'm an unbiased NBA fan who watches enough of the game and can make an educated decision based on statistical production. And there is no debate, whatsoever, who the best the best player in the NBA is today. It's the same thing as saying there is no debate that MJ is the best player in the league's history.

You can certainly attempt to make an argument against Lebron, but any argument you make would HAVE to not be based on statistical production. So how do you argue that aside from vague generalizations or a misguided "eyeball test" argument?

The reason people hate Lebron has nothing to do with the fact that the unbiased NBA fan knows he's the best player in the NBA. The reason people hate Lebron is because biased fans KNOW he's the best player in the NBA, but they regularly fail to find any justification to prove otherwise.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 04:12 PM
Is there anyone who has watched every single game for every single player this season? If so can you please stand up so we can all deposit some much needed funding into your account because you clearly don't have a job or a life.

The same guys who are claiming that others haven't watched Melo play haven't watched Durant play, nor Duncan, nor Holiday etc. I have watched 2 Knicks games in its entirty this season (both against the 76ers) and parts of about 3 others. Like I said earlier I have watched 3 Thunder games (vs us two nights ago against the Clips, Spurs and Bulls) from what I have witnessed Durant has been better than Melo and the margin really isn't that small either. Better scorer, better in the clutch, better rebounder, better defensive, by far better passing the ball. IMO from watching the games I have watched, reading the reports and watching the highlights there is no question that KD is better than Melo to start this season.

Half of New York just committed suicide.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 04:17 PM
Lebron is the better defender. Period. He is asked to do more defensively than any non-big in the NBA playing on a team without a true NBA center. And I couldn't care less how a player performs at his same position in a playoff series. If you're going to make that argument, how about the fact that Lebron clearly outperformed Durant in the Finals last season. Or did you want to ignore that fact, as well?

How so?

Durant averaged 31 ppg on 55% FG while Lebron averaged 29 ppg on 48% FG.
A great defender doesn't let someone at his own position average more than him for a playoff series and shoot better than him.

And if he was asked to do a lot defensively then why didn't he hold Durant to worse numbers? Those numbers of Durant were better than any season average he had, any playoff year he had.

shep33
11-26-2012, 04:18 PM
Have you seen their bench?

I'm looking at his fg% and 3p% which are down from his past years. Still the best pg in the game, and a top 5 player easily (just don't think he's been top 5 over 12 games), but he'll be 1st or 2nd in MVP voting when all is said and done :D

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 04:19 PM
top 3 toughest schedules so far:
1. LAC
2. MEM
3. MIA

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 04:19 PM
No he hasn't. Durant is getting more steals by double more blocks, has more defensive win shares and has a better defensive rating. He is scoring more as well and rebounding more. Lebron has him in assists and turnovers.

Basically NOTHING you said there correlates with effort. You can't quantify defensive effort by the use of stats. Especially stats like DWS and DRtg you should know this though and I'm betting you do but you clearly have an agenda so you wont admit it. Tell me is Carlos Boozer one of the best defensive PFs in the NBA? :rolleyes:

Also statistically LeBron IS a better rebounder than KD. At worse they are equals so you're also wrong there.

Really JB you gotta come MUCH better than that if you intend to foul LeBron's name.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 04:21 PM
JB what position is LeBron defending primarily this season? Now tell me when he defends that position is it easier or harder for him to get steals? Same for blocks as well.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 04:21 PM
I'm a huge Melo fan, but there is no way he's playing better than Kobe.

Kobe has a PER 26.08 to Melo's 22.85
Kobe has a better FG%, FT%, 3 more assists per game, Steals, WS, and I believe has the best +/- in the NBA. Could be wrong about the last stat... also he leads the league in scoring.

funny how you guys selectively look at those stats when its in favor of kobe.

im glad u posted this, because now whenever there is a kobe vs ____ discussion, i will be sure to post these stats that u just mentioned, and since Laker fans are mentioning those advanced stats now, i cant wait to read what they have to say when the shoe is on the other foot.

nickdymez
11-26-2012, 04:22 PM
Lebron is the better defender. Period. He is asked to do more defensively than any non-big in the NBA playing on a team without a true NBA center. And I couldn't care less how a player performs at his same position in a playoff series. If you're going to make that argument, how about the fact that Lebron clearly outperformed Durant in the Finals last season. Or did you want to ignore that fact, as well?


For one, I'm not a Heat fan. I'm an unbiased NBA fan who watches enough of the game and can make an educated decision based on statistical production. And there is no debate, whatsoever, who the best the best player in the NBA is today. It's the same thing as saying there is no debate that MJ is the best player in the league's history.

You can certainly attempt to make an argument against Lebron, but any argument you make would HAVE to not be based on statistical production. So how do you argue that aside from vague generalizations or a misguided "eyeball test" argument?

The reason people hate Lebron has nothing to do with the fact that the unbiased NBA fan knows he's the best player in the NBA. The reason people hate Lebron is because biased fans KNOW he's the best player in the NBA, but they regularly fail to find any justification to prove otherwise.

Again, this is all simply your opinion. I'm not an advanced stat guy, so throwing out all those numbers won't win anything in my eyes. I'm more of a pure basketball fan and I have no problems judging players on things that numbers cannot gauge (Heart, IQ, Toughness, etc). Some people believe Bill Russell is the GOAT, that is THAT PERSONS opinion and generally I don't knock another person's opinion when they are being reasonable in my eyes. If someone says Jamal Crawford is better than Lebron then obviously I'm going to say that person is delusional. But to say that Kevin Durant isn't on the same level as Lebron just shows me how "Delusional" someone else might be. You people act like Lebron is some creature from outter space who isnt human and never makes mistakes. Durant, Rose (When healthy), CP3, and Wade (Pre decision) were all on Lebrons level. Sorry, but thats the truth. And everyone I named were better than Lebron when it came to things that numbers dont tell you.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 04:25 PM
What I can't understand is why can't Melo fans be content with him not being a better player than KD? KD has done things Melo himself has never done and in all likeliness will never do either. He is better than Melo in damn near every aspect of basketball and is an exceptional talent. Not accepting that KD is better than Melo is like me not willing to accept that Kobe wasn't better than A.I. over the years. Kobe is was and always will be better than A.I. As of right now that's the same with KD and Melo. KD is just better. Plain and simple. You can slice it anyway you want and hate on KD as much as you like but he's better. Case closed.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 04:25 PM
Basically NOTHING you said there correlates with effort. You can't quantify defensive effort by the use of stats. Especially stats like DWS and DRtg you should know this though and I'm betting you do but you clearly have an agenda so you wont admit it. Tell me is Carlos Boozer one of the best defensive PFs in the NBA? :rolleyes:

Also statistically LeBron IS a better rebounder than KD. At worse they are equals so you're also wrong there.

Really JB you gotta come MUCH better than that if you intend to foul LeBron's name.

Durant is averaging more rebounds than Lebron this year, how is Lebron better? And Durant is leading the league in defensive rebounds as of now as well.

You are the one with the agenda, you said Lebron is better than Durant in every possible way and you even said the same thing with him over Dirk back in 2011 even after Lebron played like horse ****. Why the hell is it when Lebron plays bad he is still the best, but no one else gets that recognition ever when they play bad?

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 04:27 PM
funny how you guys selectively look at those stats when its in favor of kobe.

im glad u posted this, because now whenever there is a kobe vs ____ discussion, i will be sure to post these stats that u just mentioned, and since Laker fans are mentioning those advanced stats now, i cant wait to read what they have to say when the shoe is on the other foot.

In his defense though he is one of the more fair Laker fans around. I really don't see him going around bashing LeBron's #s (or anyone for that matter) like the others do.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 04:29 PM
How so?

Durant averaged 31 ppg on 55% FG while Lebron averaged 29 ppg on 48% FG.
A great defender doesn't let someone at his own position average more than him for a playoff series and shoot better than him.

And if he was asked to do a lot defensively then why didn't he hold Durant to worse numbers? Those numbers of Durant were better than any season average he had, any playoff year he had.

Your logic is completely flawed. For one, Durant didn't guard Lebron and Lebron didn't guard Durant most of the time. Did you even watch the NBA Finals last year? The Thunder used Sefolosha and Harden mostly on Lebron, while the Heat used Battier mostly on Durant.

Second, you're (again) conveniently avoiding other statistical areas to make your point. Lebron also destroyed Durant in rebounding, distributing and crunch time scoring in the deciding games. I don't know how you can overlook these facts.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 04:31 PM
If we're going to debate Durant and Lebron, lets at least keep it on the present season... The Finals series was last season, this thread is about this season.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 04:32 PM
Your logic is completely flawed. For one, Durant didn't guard Lebron and Lebron didn't guard Durant most of the time. Did you even watch the NBA Finals last year? The Thunder used Sefolosha and Harden mostly on Lebron, while the Heat used Battier mostly on Durant.

Second, you're (again) conveniently avoiding other statistical areas to make your point. Lebron also destroyed Durant in rebounding, distributing and crunch time scoring in the deciding games. I don't know how you can overlook these facts.

False. You said Lebron outplayed/outperformed Durant which is false. A guy doesn't outplay another player when the other player averages more ppg on better fg%. Whether you said Lebron was better on the floor than Durant in the finals that is a different issue, but saying he outplayed/outperformed Durant is false as I have just proven.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 04:35 PM
Durant is averaging more rebounds than Lebron this year, how is Lebron better? And Durant is leading the league in defensive rebounds as of now as well.

You are the one with the agenda, you said Lebron is better than Durant in every possible way and you even said the same thing with him over Dirk back in 2011 even after Lebron played like horse ****. Why the hell is it when Lebron plays bad he is still the best, but no one else gets that recognition ever when they play bad?

1. TRB%. You were the one who posted the stats not me. ;)

2. I did no such thing.


Through the first 12 games LeBron has been better than KD in almost every aspect in which you posted.


Player PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
LeBron 28.5 0.591 0.568 5.1 22.4 14.3 32.6 1.2 2.2 10.1 29.8 120 106 2.1 0.4 2.5 0.250
KD 27 0.623 0.535 2.3 24.2 14.2 21.2 2.6 2.5 15.1 29.1 116 100 1.9 0.9 2.8 0.242

So who has been better in more of the categories in which you yourself referenced again JB?

KD has a better TS%, is a better shot blocker and better at stealing the ball and generated more DWS. Other than that LeBron has him beat in every other aspect. Next?

LeBron isn't playing bad. He's playing like the best player in the NBA should play.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 04:35 PM
Again, this is all simply your opinion. I'm not an advanced stat guy, so throwing out all those numbers won't win anything in my eyes.
Argument No. 1 for typical Kobe fans and Lebron hates: "I refuse to understand advanced statistics, so let's throw them out and pretend they exist." :eyebrow:


I'm more of a pure basketball fan and I have no problems judging players on things that numbers cannot gauge (Heart, IQ, Toughness, etc).
Oh my God.... Really? So because you refuse to acknowledge advanced stats, all of a sudden you're a "pure basketball fan"? That's complete nonsense. And if you want to question Lebron's heart or basketball IQ, just watch last season's NBA Finals.


Some people believe Bill Russell is the GOAT, that is THAT PERSONS opinion and generally I don't knock another person's opinion when they are being reasonable in my eyes.
I love Bill Russell to death. But that is not a reasonable argument. Top 5? Definitely. Better than Jordan? Not reasonable.


You people act like Lebron is some creature from outter space who isnt human and never makes mistakes. Durant, Rose (When healthy), CP3, and Wade (Pre decision) were all on Lebrons level. Sorry, but thats the truth. And everyone I named were better than Lebron when it came to things that numbers dont tell you.
Lebron has been far better than all of those players since 2009. Paul has been close, but he doesn't touch Lebron in terms of scoring and he's never been healthy enough to touch Lebron. Rose was never close. And Wade was as good in the mid 2000s, but after that 06 Finals, he hasn't been on Lebron's level.

That's okay, though, because you can just ignore advanced statistics and rip Lebron for things like "heart" and "toughness," which conveniently can't be measured statistically.

SteBO
11-26-2012, 04:36 PM
False. You said Lebron outplayed Durant which is false. A guy doesn't outplay another player when the other player averages more ppg on better fg%. Whether you said Lebron was better on the floor than Durant in the finals that is a different issue, but saying he outplayed Durant is false as I have just proven.
You haven't proven anything. All you did was show us that you know how to read box scores and per game averages. LeBron did outplay Durant in the Finals and the fact that you're trying to dispute it makes me feel like you're just trolling. There are other facets of the wonderful game of basketball, and you're conveniently leaving them out because you want to push you're negative agenda.

And what makes it worse is that you actually believe in your trolling.

nickdymez
11-26-2012, 04:37 PM
Durant is averaging more rebounds than Lebron this year, how is Lebron better? And Durant is leading the league in defensive rebounds as of now as well.

You are the one with the agenda, you said Lebron is better than Durant in every possible way and you even said the same thing with him over Dirk back in 2011 even after Lebron played like horse ****. Why the hell is it when Lebron plays bad he is still the best, but no one else gets that recognition ever when they play bad?

Same thing I dont get as well.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 04:41 PM
False. You said Lebron outplayed/outperformed Durant which is false. A guy doesn't outplay another player when the other player averages more ppg on better fg%. Whether you said Lebron was better on the floor than Durant in the finals that is a different issue, but saying he outplayed/outperformed Durant is false as I have just proven.

Lol. JB, you're so ridiculous. You're like a clown, minus the part where you're funny or frightening (clowns creep the **** out of me). This whole argument was based on who plays better defense and your argument was based on Lebron and Durant guarding each other. Except they hardly guarded each other at all in that series.

So then you go on to try to tell me that Lebron was outperformed by Durant in that series, but yet Lebron posted superior numbers in a number of other categories. So what if Durant scored more than Lebron? Lebron also averaged more than 5 assists per game more than Durant. That means that Lebron is creating at least 10 more points per game in assists than Durant is.

And while you failed to bring it up, and I'm far too lazy to find statistical evidence to back this up, the Heat were clearly the better scoring team down the stretch in the series and Lebron was a monumental part of that. If Durant had outplayed Lebron, then Durant would have won. Anyone who watched that series would tell you that Lebron was the better basketball player.

LakersEaglesLA
11-26-2012, 04:43 PM
funny how you guys selectively look at those stats when its in favor of kobe.

im glad u posted this, because now whenever there is a kobe vs ____ discussion, i will be sure to post these stats that u just mentioned, and since Laker fans are mentioning those advanced stats now, i cant wait to read what they have to say when the shoe is on the other foot.

I dont care if you use those stats or not, Kobe has had a much better career than LeBron and is still top 3 in the nba 16 years later..if you wanna debate that I will chew you up and spit you out Just like Kobe would do LeBron 1 on 1

Baller1
11-26-2012, 04:45 PM
1. TRB%. You were the one who posted the stats not me. ;)

2. I did no such thing.




Player PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
LeBron 28.5 0.591 0.568 5.1 22.4 14.3 32.6 1.2 2.2 10.1 29.8 120 106 2.1 0.4 2.5 0.250
KD 27 0.623 0.535 2.3 24.2 14.2 21.2 2.6 2.5 15.1 29.1 116 100 1.9 0.9 2.8 0.242

So who has been better in more of the categories in which you yourself referenced again JB?

KD has a better TS%, is a better shot blocker and better at stealing the ball and generated more DWS. Other than that LeBron has him beat in every other aspect. Next?

LeBron isn't playing bad. He's playing like the best player in the NBA should play.

Oh come on now Swash, lets not pretend like those numbers favor Lebron's rebounding... I get that you're just trying to prove a point, but still.. Haha.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 04:46 PM
howard = 18 and 10, with .162 WS/48, hes no where on this list for a reason.
everyone on this list is performing better than him. get over it.

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. CP3
4. Durant
5. duncan
6. marc gasol
7. melo
8. bosh
9. brook lopez
10. harden

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 04:46 PM
Lol. JB, you're so ridiculous. You're like a clown, minus the part where you're funny or frightening (clowns creep the **** out of me). This whole argument was based on who plays better defense and your argument was based on Lebron and Durant guarding each other. Except they hardly guarded each other at all in that series.

So then you go on to try to tell me that Lebron was outperformed by Durant in that series, but yet Lebron posted superior numbers in a number of other categories. So what if Durant scored more than Lebron? Lebron also averaged more than 5 assists per game more than Durant. That means that Lebron is creating at least 10 more points per game in assists than Durant is.

And while you failed to bring it up, and I'm far too lazy to find statistical evidence to back this up, the Heat were clearly the better scoring team down the stretch in the series and Lebron was a monumental part of that. If Durant had outplayed Lebron, then Durant would have won. Anyone who watched that series would tell you that Lebron was the better basketball player.

This is not true, Durant did not have a proven winner on his team that won a title as the man in Wade and had another superstar in Bosh on his squad that was proven and who outplayed Lebron the season before as well. There were 5 guys in double figures on the Heat while only 3 on the Thunder and one guy on the Thunder shot 38% FG in the finals.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 04:47 PM
I dont care if you use those stats or not, Kobe has had a much better career than LeBron and is still top 3 in the nba 16 years later..if you wanna debate that I will chew you up and spit you out Just like Kobe would do LeBron 1 on 1

and youre an idiot if u think kobe was a top 3 last year, the year before.

theres nothing to debate, because all you'll ever do is bring up kobe's team accomplishments, and walk back home with your tail in between your legs.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 04:47 PM
You haven't proven anything. All you did was show us that you know how to read box scores and per game averages. LeBron did outplay Durant in the Finals and the fact that you're trying to dispute it makes me feel like you're just trolling. There are other facets of the wonderful game of basketball, and you're conveniently leaving them out because you want to push you're negative agenda.

And what makes it worse is that you actually believe in your trolling.

If he outplayed him why did Durant average 31 ppg on 55% FG while Lebron averaged 29 ppg on 47% FG? Like I said there is a difference in saying Lebron was better than Durant in the finals vs saying Lebron outplayed/outperformed Durant.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 04:49 PM
If he outplayed him why did Durant average 31 ppg on 55% FG while Lebron averaged 29 ppg on 47% FG?

Scoring isn't everything.

nickdymez
11-26-2012, 04:49 PM
Argument No. 1 for typical Kobe fans and Lebron hates: "I refuse to understand advanced statistics, so let's throw them out and pretend they exist." :eyebrow:

I dont know what me being a Lakers fan has to do with this. Its typical around here to bash Laker fans who dont use advanced stats. I dont undertsand why they go hand in hand but ok buddy, you win i guess..... :confused:


Oh my God.... Really? So because you refuse to acknowledge advanced stats, all of a sudden you're a "pure basketball fan"? That's complete nonsense. And if you want to question Lebron's heart or basketball IQ, just watch last season's NBA Finals.

No, me refusing to acknowledge advanced stats has absolutely nothing to do with me being a pure basketball fan. Advanced stats are a neat little thing that some guy who was probably never good or never played came up with to justify himself on the court. Anyone who knows basketball doesnt need to look at advanced stats or even repeat them to prove a point.


I love Bill Russell to death. But that is not a reasonable argument. Top 5? Definitely. Better than Jordan? Not reasonable.

Again, your a nobody so your opinion on someone elese opinion means nothing.


Lebron has been far better than all of those players since 2009. Paul has been close, but he doesn't touch Lebron in terms of scoring and he's never been healthy enough to touch Lebron. Rose was never close. And Wade was as good in the mid 2000s, but after that 06 Finals, he hasn't been on Lebron's level.

You can only back that up with advanced stats. Fine, but dont get all hurt when someone doesn't respect your opinion using them. Granted, Lebron has put up some ungodly stats period. Lebrons numbers are out of this world.


That's okay, though, because you can just ignore advanced statistics and rip Lebron for things like "heart" and "toughness," which conveniently can't be measured statistically.

Excactly, thats why I am a basketball purest, and your not.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 04:53 PM
Oh come on now Swash, lets not pretend like those numbers favor Lebron's rebounding... I get that you're just trying to prove a point, but still.. Haha.

:laugh2:

I got you. Its just that JB said that KD is a better rebounder than LeBron but ignores the very #s he supports in favour of the argument. Honestly its a wash but since JB wants to say that KD is better I'm going to use his own argument against him in proving him wrong.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 04:55 PM
If he outplayed him why did Durant average 31 ppg on 55% FG while Lebron averaged 29 ppg on 47% FG? Like I said there is a difference in saying Lebron was better than Durant in the finals vs saying Lebron outplayed/outperformed Durant.

He has more WS/48 JB. You do think that's the best and most telling stat there is don't you?

Baller1
11-26-2012, 04:57 PM
:laugh2:

I got you. Its just that JB said that KD is a better rebounder than LeBron but ignores the very #s he supports in favour of the argument. Honestly its a wash but since JB wants to say that KD is better I'm going to use his own argument against him in proving him wrong.

Haha, yeah I know what you were doing.

I wish KD could become a better offensive rebounder, but then again, his defensive rebounding has been ridiculous. I'm just being greedy.

TheIlladelph16
11-26-2012, 04:57 PM
Idk what's funnier in this thread.... JB's steadfast refusal to acknowledge Lebron's superiority over an exceptional KD (both previously and this season) or Nickdymez steadfast refusal to even acknowledge the use of advanced stats and that they are the most valuable tool (when applied with eye test and non-advanced stats) when analyzing a player.

To keep my response slightly on topic: Baller's list is what I would go with for this one. Lebron, Kobe, and KD are clearly the top 3 this season so far. Melo is somewhere between 5-7 imo.

elledaddy
11-26-2012, 04:58 PM
the strongest schedule? 76ers twice without bynum, dallas twice without dirk, magic, pacers no granger, hornets, and pistons are 8/12 games

knicks have been very fortunate so far


Yup, NYK is only 15th in SOS entering today.



I dont get all this " Knicks played so and so with out so and so" BS. Dallas with no Dirk still played the Knicks without Stat and Shumpert. Same thing with Philly. And whats the Knock on Philly? They are 8-4 when not playing the NYK this year. Dallas is 6-6 when not playing the Knicks. The record for teams playing minus the Knicks results is a combined 62-44. The fact that NYK has already played @ Dall,@ SA,@ Mem, @ Hou,@ Philly and home for Philly,Dall,Ind and Mia should be considered a hard schedule. All those teams besides Hou were picked to be better than NYK this year. You play who is on your schedule..


PS....... The Knicks is 6th in SOS coming into Today


http://espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi/_/sort/SOS

THE GIPPER
11-26-2012, 05:08 PM
Here is an example of Melo's improved defense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmMhLU-JSb8

LakersEaglesLA
11-26-2012, 05:08 PM
and youre an idiot if u think kobe was a top 3 last year, the year before.

theres nothing to debate, because all you'll ever do is bring up kobe's team accomplishments, and walk back home with your tail in between your legs.

And your an Idiot if you think that you can put Lebrons career in the same sentence as Kobes career.. I cant wait til the nba finals.. Then Kobe will put this nonsense to rest once and for all..

Chronz
11-26-2012, 05:10 PM
Idk what's funnier in this thread.... JB's steadfast refusal to acknowledge Lebron's superiority over an exceptional KD (both previously and this season) or Nickdymez steadfast refusal to even acknowledge the use of advanced stats and that they are the most valuable tool (when applied with eye test and non-advanced stats) when analyzing a player.

To keep my response slightly on topic: Baller's list is what I would go with for this one. Lebron, Kobe, and KD are clearly the top 3 this season so far. Melo is somewhere between 5-7 imo.

Both are equally sad, JB is selective with his use of stats and the other will hate on them regardless of the context in which they are used. Coincidently both hate LeBron and neither can back up their arguments.

BklynKnicks3
11-26-2012, 05:11 PM
Here is an example of Melo's improved defense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmMhLU-JSb8

melo d has been great he complained about not getting fouled which has been happening all year he is avgin a career low 6.3 fts despite playing more inside then he ever has

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:13 PM
Both are equally sad, JB is selective with his use of stats and the other will hate on them regardless of the context in which they are used. Coincidently both hate LeBron and neither can back up their arguments.

Are you kidding me here? I always back up my arguments and still haven't been proven wrong on Lebron yet. No one ever is able to answer the questions regarding Lebron whether it is for the Cavs or Heat on being favorite and supposed to win or how he played with everything on the line.

Not sure why you say I hate Lebron, I do not hate anyone. In fact I enjoy Lebron and how he plays, I just hate all the excuses he gets that no one else ever gets especially when the favorite.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 05:15 PM
And your an Idiot if you think that you can put Lebrons career in the same sentence as Kobes career.. I cant wait til the nba finals.. Then Kobe will put this nonsense to rest once and for all..

... why would i compare a 17 year accomplishment to a 9 year accomplishment? :confused:

why do you kobe slurpers make such bone headed comments?
is it that hard to admit that LeBron is a much better player but that kobe has had the better career so far? :facepalm:

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 05:15 PM
Are you kidding me here? I always back up my arguments and still haven't been proven wrong on Lebron yet. No one ever is able to answer the questions regarding Lebron whether it is for the Cavs or Heat.

Completely false.

Everyone answers your questions its just not what you want to hear because you're delusionally self centered in your thinking. Its sad really.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:17 PM
Oh come on now Swash, lets not pretend like those numbers favor Lebron's rebounding... I get that you're just trying to prove a point, but still.. Haha.
His TRB% is higher, his ORB% is much higher and his rebounds per 36 minutes is higher. Based on that, I would say Lebron has had a slight edge in rebounding over Durant so far this season.

This is not true, Durant did not have a proven winner on his team that won a title as the man in Wade and had another superstar in Bosh on his squad that was proven and who outplayed Lebron the season before as well. There were 5 guys in double figures on the Heat while only 3 on the Thunder and one guy on the Thunder shot 38% FG in the finals.
Just stop, JB. This is getting sad and pathetic. Westbrook completely outplayed as a No. 2 in that series and completely carried the Thunder at times in the Finals. How the **** can you honestly tell me that they won that series because of Wade? Do you even watch basketball or do you honestly believe this complete nonsense that is spewing out of your fingertips?

I dont know what me being a Lakers fan has to do with this. Its typical around here to bash Laker fans who dont use advanced stats. I dont undertsand why they go hand in hand but ok buddy, you win i guess..... :confused:
Because advanced stats are critical to the Kobe vs. Lebron argument. Anyone with a sound understanding of them would easily realize Lebron is the better player. Anyone who doesn't, can just ignore them and believe Kobe is better.


No, me refusing to acknowledge advanced stats has absolutely nothing to do with me being a pure basketball fan. Advanced stats are a neat little thing that some guy who was probably never good or never played came up with to justify himself on the court. Anyone who knows basketball doesnt need to look at advanced stats or even repeat them to prove a point.
Do you have to be a politician to understand politics or a soldier to understand war strategy? There a lot of coaches in the NBA who never played in the NBA. Does that mean they're less valuable as coaches? This argument is incredibly flawed and close minded.


Again, your a nobody so your opinion on someone elese opinion means nothing.
So are you, so why are we debating on an online forum? Based on your logic, since no one on this site actually plays or has played in the league, we should all just shut the **** up and stop having opinions.


You can only back that up with advanced stats. Fine, but dont get all hurt when someone doesn't respect your opinion using them. Granted, Lebron has put up some ungodly stats period. Lebrons numbers are out of this world.
Even if you didn't look at advanced stats, Lebron is the best player in the world since that time. No other player in the NBA scores, rebounds, distributes and plays defense at the level that he does. It doesn't even take advanced stats to prove this. You could use regular stats and the eyeball test and Lebron would still be the best player in the world.


Excactly, thats why I am a basketball purest, and your not.
First off, quit using the wrong "you're". The one you're using is possessive and is in no way a noun, verb contraction. Second, quit using the phrase "basketball purest". It's totally pretentious and it makes you sound douchey.

Bruno
11-26-2012, 05:18 PM
difficult to say really. the top five (who are ahead of the rest of the pack) are all doing something brilliant.

LeBron James (4th in WS/48, 3rd in WS, 1st in PER).
Kobe Bryant (1st in WS/48, 2nd in WS, 4th in PER, 7th in TS%, 1st in +/-).
Tim Duncan (5th in WS/48, 5th in WS, 2nd in PER, 19th in +/-).
Kevin Durant (1st in WS, 7th in WS/48, 3rd in PER, 4th in +/-).
Chris Paul (3rd in WS/48, 8th in PER, 4th in WS).

i have those five in no particular order.

the next five, in no particular order:

Melo-Bosh- M. Gasol-Harden-Howard.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:18 PM
Completely false.

Everyone answers your questions its just not what you want to hear because you're delusionally self centered in your thinking. Its sad really.

No one answers the questions and no one ever has provided the articles either like I have.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 05:20 PM
difficult to say really. the top five (who are ahead of the rest of the pack) are all doing something brilliant.

LeBron James (4th in WS/48, 3rd in WS, 1st in PER).
Kobe Bryant (1st in WS/48, 2nd in WS, 4th in PER, 7th in TS%, 1st in +/-).
Tim Duncan (5th in WS/48, 5th in WS, 2nd in PER, 19th in +/-).
Kevin Durant (1st in WS, 7th in WS/48, 3rd in PER, 4th in +/-).
Chris Paul (3rd in WS/48, 8th in PER, 4th in WS).

i have those five in no particular order.

the next five, in no particular order:

Melo-Bosh- M. Gasol-Harden-Howard.

no brook lopez?
howard has been playin pretty crappy, compared to what we are used to (granted he isnt 100%), but still his ws/48 are not better than anyones on this list including brook lopez.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:20 PM
Just stop, JB. This is getting sad and pathetic. Westbrook completely outplayed as a No. 2 in that series and completely carried the Thunder at times in the Finals. How the **** can you honestly tell me that they won that series because of Wade? Do you even watch basketball or do you honestly believe this complete nonsense that is spewing out of your fingertips?




Put the pipe down. Westbrook in no shape or form completely outplayed Wade. You are just being a Lebron lover now to pump up Lebron in the conversation to make it seem like he was doing everything out there with nothing around him when he clearly had more talent on the squad as he had the most allstars in the league on his team. Prove me wrong on that.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:21 PM
No one answers the questions and no one ever has provided the articles either like I have.

You're so full of **** that I wonder if pours out onto your computer when you write nonsense like this.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 05:21 PM
No one answers the questions and no one ever has provided the articles either like I have.

You mean your copy and pastes? :clap:

Again like I said before everyone has proven your "reasoning" to be as baseless as it comes you just seem incapable of being able to comprehend it.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:22 PM
Put the pipe down. Westbrook in no shape or form completely outplayed Wade. You are just being a Lebron lover now to pump up Lebron in the conversation to make it seem like he was doing everything out there with nothing around him when he clearly had more talent on the squad as he had the most allstars in the league on his team. Prove me wrong on that.

Westbrook averaged more points, an identical FG%, higher rebounds and higher assists per game. Based on your logic of Durant and Lebron, CLEARLY Westbrook outplayed Wade. And if you don't think he out played Wade, you must not have watched game four. That was one of the single most dominant performances in a stretch by any player I've ever seen in the NBA Finals.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:23 PM
You're so full of **** that I wonder if pours out onto your computer when you write nonsense like this.

Wade
26.5 PPG / 7.0 RPG / 5.2 APG / 1.5 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 2.5 TPG / 54.6% FG / 30.4% 3 PT FG / 69.4% FT


Bosh
18.5 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.33 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 2.17 TPG / 41.3% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.8% FT


Lebron
17.8 PPG / 7.2 RPG / 6.8 APG / 1.67 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 4.0 TPG / 47.8% FG / 32.1% 3 PT FG / 60.0% FT


lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

Like I said Lebron had more talent on his squads and guys who outplayed him on his own team the season before. So of course he had more talent on his team.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:24 PM
You mean your copy and pastes? :clap:

Again like I said before everyone has proven your "reasoning" to be as baseless as it comes you just seem incapable of being able to comprehend it.

No I am referring to the articles that show who the favorite was and the talent that was on the team. Would you like me to find them and post them again?
:clap::dance:

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:24 PM
Wade
26.5 PPG / 7.0 RPG / 5.2 APG / 1.5 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 2.5 TPG / 54.6% FG / 30.4% 3 PT FG / 69.4% FT


Bosh
18.5 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.33 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 2.17 TPG / 41.3% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.8% FT


Lebron
17.8 PPG / 7.2 RPG / 6.8 APG / 1.67 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 4.0 TPG / 47.8% FG / 32.1% 3 PT FG / 60.0% FT


lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

Like I said Lebron had more talent on his squads and guys who outplayed him on his own team the season before.
Are you pulling these stats from the Dallas series? What the **** does this have to do with ANYTHING we're talking about? Did you eat paint chips as a kid?

nickdymez
11-26-2012, 05:26 PM
His TRB% is higher, his ORB% is much higher and his rebounds per 36 minutes is higher. Based on that, I would say Lebron has had a slight edge in rebounding over Durant so far this season.

Just stop, JB. This is getting sad and pathetic. Westbrook completely outplayed as a No. 2 in that series and completely carried the Thunder at times in the Finals. How the **** can you honestly tell me that they won that series because of Wade? Do you even watch basketball or do you honestly believe this complete nonsense that is spewing out of your fingertips?

Because advanced stats are critical to the Kobe vs. Lebron argument. Anyone with a sound understanding of them would easily realize Lebron is the better player. Anyone who doesn't, can just ignore them and believe Kobe is better.


Do you have to be a politician to understand politics or a soldier to understand war strategy? There a lot of coaches in the NBA who never played in the NBA. Does that mean they're less valuable as coaches? This argument is incredibly flawed and close minded.


So are you, so why are we debating on an online forum? Based on your logic, since no one on this site actually plays or has played in the league, we should all just shut the **** up and stop having opinions.


Even if you didn't look at advanced stats, Lebron is the best player in the world since that time. No other player in the NBA scores, rebounds, distributes and plays defense at the level that he does. It doesn't even take advanced stats to prove this. You could use regular stats and the eyeball test and Lebron would still be the best player in the world.


First off, quit using the wrong "you're". The one you're using is possessive and is in no way a noun, verb contraction. Second, quit using the phrase "basketball purest". It's totally pretentious and it makes you sound douchey.

I think its really cute when someone points out that this is an online forum, implying that this is off the cuff, non formal communication and back and forth banter. But calls me a "Douch" because I used "your" instead of "Your're" and said im a purest. Your an *******. your an *******. your wrong about Lebron to.

Bruno
11-26-2012, 05:27 PM
no brook lopez?
howard has been playin pretty crappy, compared to what we are used to (granted he isnt 100%), but still his ws/48 are not better than anyones on this list including brook lopez.

Howard has had a drop off. But when you consider that he's supposed to be a top three player when healthy, I'd argue he's still top 10 while playing at 85 or 90% of his ability.

their advanced lines are close enough (Lopez takes PER and WS/48), (Howard takes TS% and WS). what ends the discussion is defense and rebounding. while Lopez has improved his defense (imo), he's still not anywhere near Dwights level in terms of being an elite defense anchor. Lopez rebounds the ball six times per game, ending the rebounding discussion as well.

Lopez has been good, Howard has been slightly better.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:27 PM
lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

Where the hell are these numbers even coming from? Do you even know or are you just randomly typing numbers as the basis of your argument? In that case, Lebron averaged 547328923798 points per game last season, and clearly was the greatest player in the history of any sport ever.

Bruno
11-26-2012, 05:28 PM
Wade
26.5 PPG / 7.0 RPG / 5.2 APG / 1.5 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 2.5 TPG / 54.6% FG / 30.4% 3 PT FG / 69.4% FT


Bosh
18.5 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.33 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 2.17 TPG / 41.3% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.8% FT


Lebron
17.8 PPG / 7.2 RPG / 6.8 APG / 1.67 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 4.0 TPG / 47.8% FG / 32.1% 3 PT FG / 60.0% FT


lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

Like I said Lebron had more talent on his squads and guys who outplayed him on his own team the season before. So of course he had more talent on his team.
...were talking about the 2012-2013 season JB.

Chronz
11-26-2012, 05:28 PM
Are you kidding me here? I always back up my arguments and still haven't been proven wrong on Lebron yet.
False, your selective in your analysis and proven to value things no one else cares about. Things like playing with injured/declining players like Ben and Shaq do nothing for your argument.


No one ever is able to answer the questions regarding Lebron whether it is for the Cavs or Heat on being favorite and supposed to win or how he played with everything on the line.
I have answered them completely, you just regurgitate the same flawed copy and pasted argument.


Not sure why you say I hate Lebron, I do not hate anyone. In fact I enjoy Lebron and how he plays, I just hate all the excuses he gets that no one else ever gets especially when the favorite.

You hate LeBron and everyone knows it. If you didn't hate Bron you wouldnt be so inconsistent with your methods.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:30 PM
Are you pulling these stats from the Dallas series? What the **** does this have to do with ANYTHING we're talking about? Did you eat paint chips as a kid?


Dude you said this.


If Durant had outplayed Lebron, then Durant would have won. Anyone who watched that series would tell you that Lebron was the better basketball player.



Which is why I said my comments. I said the Heat won because Lebron had guys on his squad who are stars and who outplayed him the season before in the finals. Durant did not have that.

shep33
11-26-2012, 05:36 PM
funny how you guys selectively look at those stats when its in favor of kobe.

im glad u posted this, because now whenever there is a kobe vs ____ discussion, i will be sure to post these stats that u just mentioned, and since Laker fans are mentioning those advanced stats now, i cant wait to read what they have to say when the shoe is on the other foot.

I'm not big on advanced stats but this forum is. Take away his advanced stats and he's still having a great season.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 05:37 PM
Howard has had a drop off. But when you consider that he's supposed to be a top three player when healthy, I'd argue he's still top 10 while playing at 85 or 90% of his ability.

their advanced lines are close enough (Lopez takes PER and WS/48), (Howard takes TS% and WS). what ends the discussion is defense and rebounding. while Lopez has improved his defense (imo), he's still not anywhere near Dwights level in terms of being an elite defense anchor. Lopez rebounds the ball six times per game, ending the rebounding discussion as well.

Lopez has been good, Howard has been slightly better.

fair enough.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:37 PM
False, your selective in your analysis and proven to value things no one else cares about. Things like playing with injured/declining players like Ben and Shaq do nothing for your argument.

How so? Ben and Shaq were proven players and one was the allstar game mvp the season before and outperformed Lebron in pivotal game of series with series tied 2-2 with HCA.



I have answered them completely, you just regurgitate the same flawed copy and pasted argument.

You have never provided any analysis or articles on the stuff that was mentioned like the detailed analysis I have provided.




You hate LeBron and everyone knows it. If you didn't hate Bron you wouldnt be so inconsistent with your methods.

Not inconsistent by any means just hate the double standards that comes with him, but say someone like Dirk he gets all the blame.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:37 PM
Dude you said this.
But I have no idea what numbers you're trying to compare or where they're coming from. Where are the following numbers coming from:

lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting
wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting



Which is why I said my comments. I said the Heat won because Lebron had guys on his squad who are stars and who outplayed him the season before in the finals. Durant did not have that.
Because Durant didn't play in the Finals and Harden and Westbrook weren't nearly the players they were a year ago. Wade also was a shell of himself in the playoffs last year, but you're completely overlooking that for the sake of your piss poor argument. You're also ignoring Lebron's ridiculous Game 6 against Boston and his *** kicking of Indiana without Bosh. Also, any reasonable fan who watched the Finals last season would tell you that Westbrook outplayed Wade. I even used your own logic to prove that he did. Please prove how Wade outplayed Westbrook in the Finals, and I'll attempt to understand your argument.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 05:38 PM
I'm not big on advanced stats but this forum is. Take away his advanced stats and he's still having a great season.

oh no i agree. imo he's the second best player in the nba. i was just surprised at how many laker fans are using advanced stats, when those same laker fans despise it. (not you though)

Knicks21
11-26-2012, 05:40 PM
1. LeBron
2. Kobe (I had to put him here because of his insane efficiency and playmaking ability. Lakers' current record is far from his fault.)
3. Durant
4. Melo
5. CP3
6. Duncan
7. Rondo
8. Westbrook
9. Harden
10. Bosh

We have a winner. Good list.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 05:41 PM
I'm obviously way out of the loop on Gasol right now. Why do so many people have him in their top 10?

Bruno
11-26-2012, 05:41 PM
in defense of JB, this has been a season where LBJ isn't flat out running away of everything like he normally does. the numbers are there for it to be a legit discussion.

Deezy3
11-26-2012, 05:42 PM
Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol are in there.

Bruno
11-26-2012, 05:42 PM
I'm obviously way out of the loop on Gasol right now. Why do so many people have him in their top 10?

he's just been rock solid.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:43 PM
How so? Ben and Shaq were proven players and one was the allstar game mvp the season before and outperformed Lebron in pivotal game of series with series tied 2-2 with HCA.
Your understanding of a "proven player" is seriously flawed. Just because a player won a title doesn't make him a great contributor for a championship team. If Shaq randomly came out of retirement to join the Thunder and they lost in the championship, would you rip on Durant for losing with a "proven player" in the Finals? No, because Shaq is old as **** and is a shell of himself. Age helps players to a certain point until it becomes detrimental to their play, and then those players stop being great and start becoming mediocre.


You have never provided any analysis or articles on the stuff that was mentioned like the detailed analysis I have provided.
What "analysis" have you provided? From all I've seen, all you've provided is cherrypicked stats with cherrypicked context. You're looking only the negative and refusing to acknowledge the positive to make your flawed logic seem legitimate.

LakersEaglesLA
11-26-2012, 05:43 PM
... why would i compare a 17 year accomplishment to a 9 year accomplishment? :confused:

why do you kobe slurpers make such bone headed comments?
is it that hard to admit that LeBron is a much better player but that kobe has had the better career so far? :facepalm:

I never said LeBron is much better right now because he is not, dont put words in my mouth.. we are fans not players. The nba players and gms continue to rank Kobe at top of the list. Non biased opinions!! Hopefully both Lakers and heat will make finals and it can be settled on the court as it should be....

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:43 PM
But I have no idea what numbers you're trying to compare or where they're coming from. Where are the following numbers coming from:



Because Durant didn't play in the Finals and Harden and Westbrook weren't nearly the players they were a year ago. Wade also was a shell of himself in the playoffs last year, but you're completely overlooking that for the sake of your piss poor argument. You're also ignoring Lebron's ridiculous Game 6 against Boston and his *** kicking of Indiana without Bosh. Also, any reasonable fan who watched the Finals last season would tell you that Westbrook outplayed Wade. I even used your own logic to prove that he did. Please prove how Wade outplayed Westbrook in the Finals, and I'll attempt to understand your argument.

The numbers are there numbers in the finals career wise and the point was to show that Lebron has a guy on his team who outplays him in the finals. And again I am not debating saying Durant was better than Lebron last year or anything, I just said he didn't outplay/outperform him in the finals. It doesnt mean he wasn't better though. Not sure what Game 6 vs Boston has to do with anything, he should never have trailed in that series and been a game away from elimination. And it's not like Indiana was anyone to worry about either. Lebron manufactored winning last year as two of the top 5 players in the league were out for the entire playoffs including a guy who was on the #1 seeded team.

xxplayerxx23
11-26-2012, 05:43 PM
The OP wanted to see where everyone ranked Melo/Thread.

LakersEaglesLA
11-26-2012, 05:47 PM
I never said LeBron is much better right now because he is not, dont put words in my mouth.. we are fans not players. The nba players and gms continue to rank Kobe at top of the list. Non biased opinions!! Hopefully both Lakers and heat will make finals and it can be settled on the court as it should be....
Kobe is playing the best in the nba right now at 34 yrs old. AMAZING

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:48 PM
I'm obviously way out of the loop on Gasol right now. Why do so many people have him in their top 10?

His rebounding has taken a blow, but his scoring efficiency and passing has been pure sex. Did you know his AST/TO ratio is higher than 4? Guess how many PGs in the NBA have an AST/TO ratio that high... 3. Rondo, Paul and Kidd. Marc Gasol is a center putting up the second highest AST/TO ratio in the NBA. That's absolutely mind blowing.

I wouldn't put him in my top 10 because his USG%, scoring and rebounding are lower than I'd like, but he might be the best all around offensive big man in the NBA right now. And that's before you consider he's probably the best defensive player on a team with a 9-2 record.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-26-2012, 05:49 PM
I never said LeBron is much better right now because he is not, dont put words in my mouth.. we are fans not players. The nba players and gms continue to rank Kobe at top of the list. Non biased opinions!! Hopefully both Lakers and heat will make finals and it can be settled on the court as it should be....

...lol, this is a perfect example of BSing.

http://www.nba.com/news/2012-13-gm-survey/index.html?rss=true

lol.. here buddy:

Who will win the 2012-13 MVP?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 66.7%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 30.0%
3. Carmelo Anthony, New York -- 3.3%

If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 80.0%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 16.7%
3. Dwight Howard, L.A. Lakers -- 3.3%

Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 50.0%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 20.0%
3. Dwight Howard, L.A. Lakers -- 16.7%
4. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 6.7%
Also receiving votes: Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas; Derrick Rose, Chicago

HouRealCoach
11-26-2012, 05:53 PM
Kobe should be first, leading the league in WS and playing the best basketball of his career.

And no way is Melo is that high lol

LeBron's WS has been better than Kobe's since 2005 but I got argued by every Laker fan on here that advanced stats (or stats alone) mean nothing & people claim that he has "insane efficiency" this year but LeBron has repeatedly beat him in damn near every advanced stat since 2005 but you act like it doesn't mean anything then... I'll remember this when another argument occurs lol

I notice that Laker fans are the main ones that have Kobe 1-3 though

A guy I don't see is Jrue Holiday... He is playing great this year

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:54 PM
The numbers are there numbers in the finals career wise and the point was to show that Lebron has a guy on his team who outplays him in the finals.
But what the **** do career numbers have to do with anything? No one is arguing that Wade didn't have a great Finals series in 06. In fact, I even said in another thread a while back that it was the single greatest Finals performance I've ever seen and easily one of the best in the history of the NBA. But stats from six years ago are not still relevant when comparing the talent of players today.


And again I am not debating saying Durant was better than Lebron last year or anything, I just said he didn't outplay/outperform him in the finals. It doesnt mean he wasn't better though.
But he was better. He did outperform Durant. And your argument is about as flimsy as a used one-ply tissue.


Not sure what Game 6 vs Boston has to do with anything, he should never have trailed in that series and been a game away from elimination. And it's not like Indiana was anyone to worry about either.
Are you ****ing kidding me? You're using Wade's numbers from 06 to try and validate your argument, but I use examples from the exact same postseason and they're not valid? Do you realize how ridiculous you're being?


Lebron manufactored winning last year as two of the top 5 players in the league were out for the entire playoffs including a guy who was on the #1 seeded team.
Oh... You mean the same player (Rose) who Lebron's Heat absolutely crushed in the Finals a year prior? Yeah.... Sorry if I have a hard time buying that argument either.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 05:54 PM
LeBron's WS has been better than Kobe's since 2005 but I got argued by every Laker fan on here that advanced stats (or stats alone) mean nothing & people claim that he has "insane efficiency" this year but LeBron has repeatedly beat him in damn near every advanced stat since 2005 but you act like it doesn't mean anything then... I'll remember this when another argument occurs lol

I notice that Laker fans are the main ones that have Kobe 1-3 though

A guy I don't see is Jrue Holiday... He is playing great this year

Well Chris Paul has a higher WS/PER 48 minutes than Lebron career wise and they came into the league a year apart.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 05:55 PM
His rebounding has taken a blow, but his scoring efficiency and passing has been pure sex. Did you know his AST/TO ratio is higher than 4? Guess how many PGs in the NBA have an AST/TO ratio that high... 3. Rondo, Paul and Kidd. Marc Gasol is a center putting up the second highest AST/TO ratio in the NBA. That's absolutely mind blowing.

I wouldn't put him in my top 10 because his USG%, scoring and rebounding are lower than I'd like, but he might be the best all around offensive big man in the NBA right now. And that's before you consider he's probably the best defensive player on a team with a 9-2 record.

Hmmm... I can honestly say that I had no clue he was having such a solid season all-around. Wonder why. I guess I'll have to start giving him some more notice.

NYKnicks4511
11-26-2012, 05:56 PM
In his two previous games before the Detroit win, Melo had 14 turnovers. This is a small sample size, though I do think he has been playing great and looks to be a fringe top-5 player this year. I don't know if he can sustain it though, as teams are doubling the **** out of him. Like it or not, we need Stoudemire.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 05:57 PM
LeBron's WS has been better than Kobe's since 2005 but I got argued by every Laker fan on here that advanced stats (or stats alone) mean nothing & people claim that he has "insane efficiency" this year but LeBron has repeatedly beat him in damn near every advanced stat since 2005 but you act like it doesn't mean anything then... I'll remember this when another argument occurs lol

I notice that Laker fans are the main ones that have Kobe 1-3 though

A guy I don't see is Jrue Holiday... He is playing great this year

I agree that Jrue has been playing stellar ball to start the season, but I have a tough time finding a spot for him in the top 10.

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 05:57 PM
Well Chris Paul has a higher WS/PER 48 minutes than Lebron career wise and they came into the league a year apart.

What does this have to do with anything? Reading your comments is like picking up a book and reading a random paragraph from a random page, because you very rarely provide any context for what you're trying to say.

RocketLoc80
11-26-2012, 05:57 PM
Well Chris Paul has a higher WS/PER 48 minutes than Lebron career wise and they came into the league a year apart.

Just stop man you are further embarassing yourself in trying to convince yourself that Lebron is some average player in your eyes. If the Heat do come up short this year you probably the the very first one with a " I told you so post in proving yourself right". Just come out and admit you hate Lebron man. You never give the man credit for anything.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 06:00 PM
But what the **** do career numbers have to do with anything? No one is arguing that Wade didn't have a great Finals series in 06. In fact, I even said in another thread a while back that it was the single greatest Finals performance I've ever seen and easily one of the best in the history of the NBA. But stats from six years ago are not still relevant when comparing the talent of players today.

When the player is in his prime still and the team is Wade's as he got the job done as the man in a city that never won it all prior to Wade being there. Something Lebron was not able to do in Cleveland.



But he was better. He did outperform Durant. And your argument is about as flimsy as a used one-ply tissue.

better maybe, outperform no. Unless you think Hakeem outplayed Shaq in 1995 finals as well when numbers were similar and Shaq shot 11% FG better?



Are you ****ing kidding me? You're using Wade's numbers from 06 to try and validate your argument, but I use examples from the exact same postseason and they're not valid? Do you realize how ridiculous you're being?

Not using Wade's numbers from 2006, using his numbers overall.



Oh... You mean the same player (Rose) who Lebron's Heat absolutely crushed in the Finals a year prior? Yeah.... Sorry if I have a hard time buying that argument either.

Lebron didn't do **** to Rose in the playoffs, it was Bosh who outplayed the Bulls entire frontcourt.

Wade
18.8 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 2.2 APG / 1.60 SPG / 1.20 BPG / 4.00 TPG / 40.5% FG / 20.0% 3 PT FG / 82.9% FT

Lebron
25.8 PPG / 7.8 RPG / 6.6 APG / 2.40 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 3.6 TPG / 44.7% FG / 38.9% 3 PT FG / 86.4% FT

Bosh
23.2 PPG / 7.6 RPG / 1.2 APG / 0.60 SPG / 1.0 BPG / 2.0 TPG / 60.0% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 91.4% FT


Boozer
14.4 PPG / 10.2 RPG / 1.6 APG / 0.8 SPG / 0.8 BPG / 1.0 TPG / 40.7% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.4% FT


Noah
6.0 PPG / 9.8 RPG / 3.4 APG / 1.4 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 1.2 TPG / 31.7% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 50.0% FT


Boozer averaged 8.7 points and 7.7 rebounds in the three games in Chicago and shot 34 percent.

In the two games in Miami, Boozer averaged 23 points and 14 rebounds and shot 45%.

Chronz
11-26-2012, 06:00 PM
How so? Ben and Shaq were proven players and one was the allstar game mvp the season before and outperformed Lebron in pivotal game of series with series tied 2-2 with HCA.
Why are you acting like I havent already explained this to you? Dear god man stop trolling and start thinking. Nobody gives a **** about your barometers, injured and declining players dont help your argument. The game you frequently mention for Shaq is another example of your inconsistent arguments.



You have never provided any analysis or articles on the stuff that was mentioned like the detailed analysis I have provided.

False, showing me who was favored isnt analysis. Its showing me predictions.



Not inconsistent by any means just hate the double standards that comes with him, but say someone like Dirk he gets all the blame.Utterly false, you are horribly inconsistent. Like why do you use APBRMetrics if your just going to make asinine statements like "Durant outplayed Bron because of __insert a few stats here___ yet totally ignore that Bron put up superior overall production?


I get guys like Dymez who focus solely on what they see, he sticks to the script and gives you his input but you, you make no kind of sense. You will use stats when they suit you, totally ignore them when they dont, your a perverse version of me.

RocketLoc80
11-26-2012, 06:01 PM
What does this have to do with anything? Reading your comments is like picking up a book and reading a random paragraph from a random page, because you very rarely provide any context for what you're trying to say.

CS and he keeps bringing up BS like HCA and all that garbage. I swear man I think he is lightweight rooting for Lebron to fail just like his idoil Skip Bayless but won`t admit it because he`ll be seen as a pure hater.

Bruno
11-26-2012, 06:02 PM
well this went downhill quickly.

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 06:02 PM
What does this have to do with anything? Reading your comments is like picking up a book and reading a random paragraph from a random page, because you very rarely provide any context for what you're trying to say.

Edit: Someone responded with the WS argument was just saying my line for those who say Lebron is better than CP3 when CP3 has better ws/per 48 minutes career wise.

Baller1
11-26-2012, 06:08 PM
well this went downhill quickly.

Yeah, no kidding.

HouRealCoach
11-26-2012, 06:08 PM
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Tim Duncan
Caremlo Anthony
James Harden
Zach Randolph/Chris Bosh
Rajon Rondo
Jrue Holliday

I changed things up a little bit more I guess. Damien Lillard is also very close to the top 10 in my opinion. As are Aldridge, Gay and a few others.

What in the hell has Aldridge done? Now do you guys see how he is overrated?? He has no business being mentioned in this thread...


Well Chris Paul has a higher WS/PER 48 minutes than Lebron career wise and they came into the league a year apart.

2 years actually... & I was just stating how when they argue how Kobe has been better than LeBron, advanced stats mean nothing but now he has the most just 10-12 games into the season they want to use that as an argument... Just pathetic lol

JordansBulls
11-26-2012, 06:14 PM
Why are you acting like I havent already explained this to you? Dear god man stop trolling and start thinking. Nobody gives a **** about your barometers, injured and declining players dont help your argument. The game you frequently mention for Shaq is another example of your inconsistent arguments.


Because you have not and you avoid the topic generally because you know I am right on this one.




False, showing me who was favored isnt analysis. Its showing me predictions.


How about showing you SRS rating, point differential, ortg of the team and defensive rtg of the team?



Utterly false, you are horribly inconsistent. Like why do you use APBRMetrics if your just going to make asinine statements like "Durant outplayed Bron because of __insert a few stats here___ yet totally ignore that Bron put up superior overall production?

I didn't say Durant outplayed Bron. I said Durant was not outplayed by Bron. Doesn't mean Lebron wasn't better though in the series.



I get guys like Dymez who focus solely on what they see, he sticks to the script and gives you his input but you, you make no kind of sense. You will use stats when they suit you, totally ignore them when they dont, your a perverse version of me.

This is "the pot calling the kettle black"

mightybosstone
11-26-2012, 06:20 PM
When the player is in his prime still and the team is Wade's as he got the job done as the man in a city that never won it all prior to Wade being there. Something Lebron was not able to do in Cleveland.
But Westbrook's numbers were better than Wade's and you've yet to prove otherwise, so why should that not be part of the equation? Also, you're glossing over the fact that Lebron never played with anyone better than Mo Williams, whereas Wade got Shaq at the tail end of his prime. How is that a fair comparison?


better maybe, outperform no. Unless you think Hakeem outplayed Shaq in 1995 finals as well when numbers were similar and Shaq shot 11% FG better?
I wouldn't know. I'd have to see the exact numbers from the series, because I was barely eight years old during that series and a huge Hakeem Olajuwon fan.


Not using Wade's numbers from 2006, using his numbers overall.
But Wade's numbers from 06 are incorporated in those numbers, and that's why they're so skewed. And who cares who put up better numbers in the Finals six years ago or three years ago or even last year? It's about who put up the best numbers in the season you're discussing. Lebron did. He was the better player than Wade. End of discussion.


Lebron didn't do **** to Rose in the playoffs, it was Bosh who outplayed the Bulls entire frontcourt.

Lebron
25.8 PPG / 7.8 RPG / 6.6 APG / 2.40 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 3.6 TPG / 44.7% FG / 38.9% 3 PT FG / 86.4% FT

:confused: So Lebron should get no credit for that series even though he averaged 26/8/7/2/2 on 47/39/86 shooting percentages? I'm so unbelievably confused by you, JB. You make no sense whatsoever. You say "Player X deserves no credit for winning Series Z" and then say "Look at these incredible numbers for Player X in Series Z."

Chronz
11-26-2012, 06:23 PM
Because you have not
You forgot a word here. I have no what?


and you avoid the topic generally because you know I am right on this one.
LOL what? If I generally avoid the topic why do I have a visitors message from you saying why do I always defend Bron? The truth is, I avoid discussions that are worn out unless its a slow day, and I usually respond to you because of our history.



How about showing you SRS rating, point differential, ortg of the team and defensive rtg of the team?

Thats much better, I really wish you would focus on relevant material than BS nobody cares about like old/injured players. Actual analysis is always better than reputation analysis. I never said I had a problem with you citing metrics, we can actually have a discussion centered around them, but when you start making rules like "he had to win because he had a proven winner with him and all the analysts predicted Cleveland to win" are nonsensical.



I didn't say Durant outplayed Bron. I said Durant was not outplayed by Bron. Doesn't mean Lebron wasn't better though in the series.

Touche


This is "the pot calling the kettle black"
This is the pot calling the kettle a perverse pot.

xxplayerxx23
11-26-2012, 06:26 PM
Lets bring his thread up in about 40 games or so.

Ebbs
11-26-2012, 06:32 PM
LeBron
Durant
Kobe
Melo
Paul
Duncan
Rondo
Harden
Bosh
Z-Bo
Westbrook
Mayo
Marc Gasol

Money_23
11-26-2012, 06:42 PM
1. TRB%. You were the one who posted the stats not me. ;)

2. I did no such thing.




Player PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
LeBron 28.5 0.591 0.568 5.1 22.4 14.3 32.6 1.2 2.2 10.1 29.8 120 106 2.1 0.4 2.5 0.250
KD 27 0.623 0.535 2.3 24.2 14.2 21.2 2.6 2.5 15.1 29.1 116 100 1.9 0.9 2.8 0.242

So who has been better in more of the categories in which you yourself referenced again JB?

KD has a better TS%, is a better shot blocker and better at stealing the ball and generated more DWS. Other than that LeBron has him beat in every other aspect. Next?

LeBron isn't playing bad. He's playing like the best player in the NBA should play.


so you just proved that Durant and Lebron are just about neck to neck right now. Great job.

Money_23
11-26-2012, 06:46 PM
...lol, this is a perfect example of BSing.

http://www.nba.com/news/2012-13-gm-survey/index.html?rss=true

lol.. here buddy:

Who will win the 2012-13 MVP?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 66.7%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 30.0%
3. Carmelo Anthony, New York -- 3.3%

If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 80.0%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 16.7%
3. Dwight Howard, L.A. Lakers -- 3.3%

Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 50.0%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 20.0%
3. Dwight Howard, L.A. Lakers -- 16.7%
4. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 6.7%
Also receiving votes: Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas; Derrick Rose, Chicago

that's interesting. I wonder what the votes are now after the season started.

nolin
11-26-2012, 06:52 PM
ok here is how the top 10 should look


1. bron- obviously the best player in the league right now.
2. melo- has the knicks number 1 in the east right now. yes people the knicks
3. Rudy gay- leading the grizzlies out west right now.
4. Joakim Noah keeping the bulls in the thick of things in the central w/o the reinging mvp and best pg in the league right now.
5. Kobe- great start maybe the best of his career.
6. Durant- ehh
7. jamal crawford- 6th man hand it over now
8.zbo- just a beast
9. rondo- carrying the celtics
10. monta ellis playing good for a bucks team without talent.

honorable mentions- Amare, Wade, D12 and Dirk

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 06:54 PM
so you just proved that Durant and Lebron are just about neck to neck right now. Great job.

If they are neck and neck then we need to throw Kobe in there a we'll. I also didn't say it was close. LeBron is just superior in more statistical categories than KD.

Jesse2272
11-26-2012, 07:00 PM
What does striaght mean?

Its slightly better than a crokoed coward

Jesse2272
11-26-2012, 07:02 PM
ok here is how the top 10 should look


1. bron- obviously the best player in the league right now.
2. melo- has the knicks number 1 in the east right now. yes people the knicks
3. Rudy gay- leading the grizzlies out west right now.
4. Joakim Noah keeping the bulls in the thick of things in the central w/o the reinging mvp and best pg in the league right now.
5. Kobe- great start maybe the best of his career.
6. Durant- ehh
7. jamal crawford- 6th man hand it over now
8.zbo- just a beast
9. rondo- carrying the celtics
10. monta ellis playing good for a bucks team without talent.

honorable mentions- Amare, Wade, D12 and Dirk

As much as I love Melo KD has that 2 spot Melos ranking is subjective 4/5 between Kobe/Melo right now

dont like the list

Amare hasnt played a game yet FYI (are you talkin Stat)

HouRealCoach
11-26-2012, 07:03 PM
that's interesting. I wonder what the votes are now after the season started.

You might hate this but...


This weeks top 5 #NBA MVP leaders 1 @kingjames 2 @KDTrey5 @CarmeloAnthony 4 Tim Duncan 5 tie @rudygay22 & @MacBo50 I know, I know no Kobe!

@GregAnthony50

Still not in top 5 (or 6) sir... One day you Laker fans will understand that WINNING counts lol

Money_23
11-26-2012, 07:05 PM
You might hate this but...



@GregAnthony50

Still not in top 5 (or 6) sir... One day you Laker fans will understand that WINNING counts lol

I'm not a Laker fan. But of course, MVPs are based on the team's success as well, I know that. But isn't this thread about the top 10 players, not the top 10 MVP candidates? They are different aren't they?

Money_23
11-26-2012, 07:07 PM
If they are neck and neck then we need to throw Kobe in there a we'll. I also didn't say it was close. LeBron is just superior in more statistical categories than KD.

from the advanced stats you posted, it was 9 to 8 in favor of Lebron. their TRB% were only .1% apart so I just call it a wash. It's alot closer than you make it out to be in terms of stats. The only thing Lebron is way better than Durant at is his ast%. But Durant has improved alot in his rebounding and playmaking this year, and he'll only get better (i hope).

HouRealCoach
11-26-2012, 07:14 PM
I'm not a Laker fan. But of course, MVPs are based on the team's success as well, I know that. But isn't this thread about the top 10 players, not the top 10 MVP candidates? They are different aren't they?

You may not be a Laker fan but u sure do love you some Kobe & you said you wonder what the votes are now that the season has started so I showed you the results... Don't know why you brung up the title of the thread :shrug:

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 07:16 PM
from the advanced stats you posted, it was 9 to 8 in favor of Lebron. their TRB% were only .1% apart so I just call it a wash. It's alot closer than you make it out to be in terms of stats. The only thing Lebron is way better than Durant at is his ast%. But Durant has improved alot in his rebounding and playmaking this year, and he'll only get better (i hope).

Now lets weigh the stats. On your list of importance in terms of stats where would LeBron rank? He has a higher PER, generated more WS/48 and if he played as many games as KD would also have more WS. Those are regarded at the 3 most telling stats in terms of an individual's value are they not? Well LeBron all but has the lead in all those areas. KD is a more efficient scorer but not a more valuable offensive player according to those very stats.

A typo on my part on my post however. I meant to say it didn't say it wasn't close not was.

LoveMeOrHateMe
11-26-2012, 07:22 PM
You may not be a Laker fan but u sure do love you some Kobe & you said you wonder what the votes are now that the season has started so I showed you the results... Don't know why you brung up the title of the thread :shrug:

Greg Anthony is an analyst not a gm

HouRealCoach
11-26-2012, 07:25 PM
Greg Anthony is an analyst not a gm

He was tweeting the weekly results (not his opinion) from his twitter... I know the truth hurts. it's okay

Baller1
11-26-2012, 07:47 PM
ok here is how the top 10 should look


1. bron- obviously the best player in the league right now.
2. melo- has the knicks number 1 in the east right now. yes people the knicks
3. Rudy gay- leading the grizzlies out west right now.
4. Joakim Noah keeping the bulls in the thick of things in the central w/o the reinging mvp and best pg in the league right now.
5. Kobe- great start maybe the best of his career.
6. Durant- ehh
7. jamal crawford- 6th man hand it over now
8.zbo- just a beast
9. rondo- carrying the celtics
10. monta ellis playing good for a bucks team without talent.

honorable mentions- Amare, Wade, D12 and Dirk

Ohhhh man, I could go off on this list. I'll refrain.

(Monta Ellis hasn't even been the best on the Bucks :laugh2:)

LoveMeOrHateMe
11-26-2012, 07:47 PM
He was tweeting the weekly results (not his opinion) from his twitter... I know the truth hurts. it's okay

But what you don't get is that the gm's don't do the MVP rankings or anything like that, it's still an analyst who does it I think it's Maurice brooks? The truth hurts really? It doesn't hurt me that's for sure I know Kobe will have a legit shot at winning it at the end of the year

stawka
11-26-2012, 07:49 PM
Inb4JBmakesajokeofhimselfinanotherthread

Oh wait...

Chronz
11-26-2012, 07:54 PM
Bron/Durant/Kobe are inseparable thus far. You cannot fault Kobe for the Lakers poor start, the way the Lakers have played when hes not on the floor is even worse than the year prior, Id argue the Lakers have never looked worse without him on the court.

At least last year when Kobe sat, Bynum feasted. Dwight has possibly fared better alongside Kobe which is important but one thing he seems to be struggling with is anchoring the team while Kobe sits as most of his production (save for Assists) go down. From what Ive seen, teams do not fear doubling down on Dwight with the poor shooters they have, hes kicking out but if he cant beat double teams, then I think the Lakers should focus on playing him exclusively with Kobe and allowing Pau to be the Go-to option for the bench.

HouRealCoach
11-26-2012, 08:00 PM
But what you don't get is that the gm's don't do the MVP rankings or anything like that, it's still an analyst who does it I think it's Maurice brooks? The truth hurts really? It doesn't hurt me that's for sure I know Kobe will have a legit shot at winning it at the end of the year

Of course lol.. His best year in 2006 He didn't even come close but I understand. I really admire your confidence in him to keep this up in his 17th year even though he's never led the league in win shares or shot over 50%. He finally does it through his first 10 games and you Laker fans mark out like he's putting up Wilt numbers and undefeated or something lol. You guys are gonna enjoy him shooting above 50% to the fullest huh?

& how do you know what source he got it from?

LoveMeOrHateMe
11-26-2012, 08:31 PM
Of course lol.. His best year in 2006 He didn't even come close but I understand. I really admire your confidence in him to keep this up in his 17th year even though he's never led the league in win shares or shot over 50%. He finally does it through his first 10 games and you Laker fans mark out like he's putting up Wilt numbers and undefeated or something lol. You guys are gonna enjoy him shooting above 50% to the fullest huh?

& how do you know what source he got it from?

You're so full of it lol no laker fan is wetting their pants for Kobe's strong start I've seen better from him maybe not as efficient but yeah, get over yourself you're nothing special and he got it from that source because he's usually the guy who does the MVP rankings on nba.com

pedrofan45
11-26-2012, 08:44 PM
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Melo
Duncan

is my top 5

Kobe's having his best season ever... His team is awful too, he is the MVP NO DOUBT

b@llhog24
11-26-2012, 08:50 PM
funny how you guys selectively look at those stats when its in favor of kobe.

im glad u posted this, because now whenever there is a kobe vs ____ discussion, i will be sure to post these stats that u just mentioned, and since Laker fans are mentioning those advanced stats now, i cant wait to read what they have to say when the shoe is on the other foot.

:clap:


In his defense though he is one of the more fair Laker fans around. I really don't see him going around bashing LeBron's #s (or anyone for that matter) like the others do.

Yea shep is one of the few Laker fans on here that I like.


Your logic is completely flawed. For one, Durant didn't guard Lebron and Lebron didn't guard Durant most of the time. Did you even watch the NBA Finals last year? The Thunder used Sefolosha and Harden mostly on Lebron, while the Heat used Battier mostly on Durant.

Second, you're (again) conveniently avoiding other statistical areas to make your point. Lebron also destroyed Durant in rebounding, distributing and crunch time scoring in the deciding games. I don't know how you can overlook these facts.

Then you clearly don't know who you're deadling with here.



This is not true, Durant did not have a proven winner on his team that won a title as the man in Wade and had another superstar in Bosh on his squad that was proven and who outplayed Lebron the season before as well. There were 5 guys in double figures on the Heat while only 3 on the Thunder and one guy on the Thunder shot 38% FG in the finals.
.


"Cause Melo is winning games as the man, he didn't have another player who took his team to the finals in Dwight, and a two time MVP in Nash."

--#JBLogic

I wasn't to far off huh JB?

Ebbs
11-26-2012, 08:54 PM
Ohhhh man, I could go off on this list. I'll refrain.

(Monta Ellis hasn't even been the best on the Bucks :laugh2:)

Noah at 4 good lord lol

HouRealCoach
11-26-2012, 08:58 PM
You're so full of it lol no laker fan is wetting their pants for Kobe's strong start I've seen better from him maybe not as efficient but yeah, get over yourself you're nothing special and he got it from that source because he's usually the guy who does the MVP rankings on nba.com

You can't speak for them all... I think that is why they already had a "Kobe MVP Candidate" thread 8 games into the season. Hell, in the NFL you can't even dictate who the MVP is through 8 games lol. You guys will have to answer when his percentage falls lol

Kashmir13579
11-26-2012, 09:00 PM
The way Kobe is playing cannot sustain.. It defies everything.

b@llhog24
11-26-2012, 09:06 PM
I dont get all this " Knicks played so and so with out so and so" BS. Dallas with no Dirk still played the Knicks without Stat and Shumpert. Same thing with Philly. And whats the Knock on Philly? They are 8-4 when not playing the NYK this year. Dallas is 6-6 when not playing the Knicks. The record for teams playing minus the Knicks results is a combined 62-44. The fact that NYK has already played @ Dall,@ SA,@ Mem, @ Hou,@ Philly and home for Philly,Dall,Ind and Mia should be considered a hard schedule. All those teams besides Hou were picked to be better than NYK this year. You play who is on your schedule..


PS....... The Knicks is 6th in SOS coming into Today


http://espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi/_/sort/SOS

In case you didn't notice, that's a good thing.


Both are equally sad, JB is selective with his use of stats and the other will hate on them regardless of the context in which they are used. Coincidently both hate LeBron and neither can back up their arguments.

Just proves we can all come together for the common cause of spreading around ignorance and hate.


melo d has been great he complained about not getting fouled which has been happening all year he is avgin a career low 6.3 fts despite playing more inside then he ever has

He played more inside in Denver, so you're lying.


no brook lopez?
howard has been playin pretty crappy, compared to what we are used to (granted he isnt 100%), but still his ws/48 are not better than anyones on this list including brook lopez.

Defense?


I think its really cute when someone points out that this is an online forum, implying that this is off the cuff, non formal communication and back and forth banter. But calls me a "Douch" because I used "your" instead of "Your're" and said im a purest. Your an *******. your an *******. your wrong about Lebron to.

Sure gloss over the entirety of his argument like he didn't just chew you up and spit you out. :facepalm:


Kobe is playing the best in the nba right now at 34 yrs old. AMAZING

Now this is just sad.

Bruno
11-26-2012, 10:07 PM
Bron/Durant/Kobe are inseparable thus far. You cannot fault Kobe for the Lakers poor start, the way the Lakers have played when hes not on the floor is even worse than the year prior, Id argue the Lakers have never looked worse without him on the court.

At least last year when Kobe sat, Bynum feasted. Dwight has possibly fared better alongside Kobe which is important but one thing he seems to be struggling with is anchoring the team while Kobe sits as most of his production (save for Assists) go down. From what Ive seen, teams do not fear doubling down on Dwight with the poor shooters they have, hes kicking out but if he cant beat double teams, then I think the Lakers should focus on playing him exclusively with Kobe and allowing Pau to be the Go-to option for the bench.

this is what i was discussing with my buddies a few nights ago. let gasol get the ball where he likes it. Surround Gasol with Meeks and Duhon, with Jamison and Hill. Let Kobe and Howard go to work.

LakersEaglesLA
11-26-2012, 10:37 PM
...lol, this is a perfect example of BSing.

http://www.nba.com/news/2012-13-gm-survey/index.html?rss=true

lol.. here buddy:

Who will win the 2012-13 MVP?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 66.7%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 30.0%
3. Carmelo Anthony, New York -- 3.3%

If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 80.0%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 16.7%
3. Dwight Howard, L.A. Lakers -- 3.3%

Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 50.0%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 20.0%
3. Dwight Howard, L.A. Lakers -- 16.7%
4. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 6.7%
Also receiving votes: Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas; Derrick Rose, Chicago

First of all Kobe is 34 so ofcourse They wouldnt start a team with him.. Second of all Kobe didnt win MVP's thoughout the decade because the media hates him so those are dumb attemps at making a point.. try again Buddy

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 10:43 PM
First of all Kobe is 34 so ofcourse They wouldnt start a team with him.. Second of all Kobe didnt win MVP's thoughout the decade because the media hates him so those are dumb attemps at making a point.. try again Buddy

You have zero point. You said the GMs have Kobe at the top. You were wrong, unless you attend GM meeting and know something we all don't know.

LakersEaglesLA
11-26-2012, 10:51 PM
Kobe has always been at the top of there list, LeBron could never be trusted in the 4th quarter or a playoff game REMEMBER! LeBron finally got same ice in his veins in his 8th year..how quickly haters forget.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 10:56 PM
difficult to say really. the top five (who are ahead of the rest of the pack) are all doing something brilliant.

LeBron James (4th in WS/48, 3rd in WS, 1st in PER).
Kobe Bryant (1st in WS/48, 2nd in WS, 4th in PER, 7th in TS%, 1st in +/-).
Tim Duncan (5th in WS/48, 5th in WS, 2nd in PER, 19th in +/-).
Kevin Durant (1st in WS, 7th in WS/48, 3rd in PER, 4th in +/-).
Chris Paul (3rd in WS/48, 8th in PER, 4th in WS).

i have those five in no particular order.

the next five, in no particular order:

Melo-Bosh- M. Gasol-Harden-Howard.

Not anymore. KD just blew right past him.

Swashcuff
11-26-2012, 11:00 PM
Kobe has always been at the top of there list, LeBron could never be trusted in the 4th quarter or a playoff game REMEMBER! LeBron finally got same ice in his veins in his 8th year..how quickly haters forget.

Really? (http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter) Learn before you speak child.

305 till I die
11-26-2012, 11:58 PM
LBJ
KD
Melo
Timmy
Gay
Bosh
CP3
Marc Gasol
Rondo (needs to stop stat padding)
Kobe (would be way higher if his team won)

Lopez and Holliday are solid picks as well.

LoveMeOrHateMe
11-27-2012, 12:18 AM
LBJ
KD
Melo
Timmy
Gay
Bosh
CP3
Marc Gasol
Rondo (needs to stop stat padding)
Kobe (would be way higher if his team won)

Lopez and Holliday are solid picks as well.

this isnt mvp candidates its top 10 players and well kobe should be no worse then #3

Sactown
11-27-2012, 12:28 AM
Not anymore. KD just blew right past him.

Honestly shows how +/- says more about who you're playing than who you are.

305 till I die
11-27-2012, 12:59 AM
this isnt mvp candidates its top 10 players and well kobe should be no worse then #3

if wins did not matter whats the point of this list... what is a 12 game sample size to define how good a player is? Last years top 10 players would still be this years top 10.

Baller1
11-27-2012, 01:07 AM
Not anymore. KD just blew right past him.

+44 tonight... :laugh2:

Baller1
11-27-2012, 01:08 AM
Noah at 4 good lord lol

Haha, I almost responded fully to that list... But it would've honestly been worthless. So many things wrong with it. Yeah, Noah was a good one too. :laugh2:

LakersEaglesLA
11-27-2012, 03:35 AM
Really? (http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter) Learn before you speak child.

Thanks for finally waving the white flag, you didnt know what the hell you were talking about anyway!

JJ_JKidd
11-27-2012, 03:39 AM
1. Lebron
2. Melo
3. Kobe
4. Cp3
5.harden
6. westbrook
7howard
8. Zbo
9 dwill
10 bosh/rondo

:confused:

tht_one_guy
11-27-2012, 04:53 AM
k this lebron vs durant crap needs to stop u r talking about the two most skilled players in the league right now Lebron is playing better but not by as much as u Lebron fan boys think. I am sorry cause i know that a lot of you are going to get mad about this but the only reason the heat beat the thunder in the finals was role players the Heat's role players showed up the entire series and the thunders didnt and i think Brooks got out coached in the series but even thought it was only a 5 game series all the games except for game 5 were close only game 5 was won by double digits. Now for the Kobe vs Lebron y dont we wait a bit on tht on and see if both teams can meet in the finals and then let it be settled cause u can throw all the stats out u like but once the game starts tht stuff means nothing but this is just my opinion.
Sorry for any typos but i am not proof reading this crap

Greedy22
11-27-2012, 05:11 AM
Thanks for finally waving the white flag, you didnt know what the hell you were talking about anyway!

Go away.

Greedy22
11-27-2012, 05:15 AM
I think Baller's list is really the best thus far.

I agree.

Swashcuff
11-27-2012, 07:20 AM
Honestly shows how +/- says more about who you're playing than who you are.

Ron Artest was third coming into last night. It's not really something anyone should boast much about without context or adjusted them to take strength of teammates into account. RAPM is way more accurate (still not without its flaws), LeBron happens to be leading the league in that regard.

bucketss
11-27-2012, 11:57 AM
Thanks for finally waving the white flag, you didnt know what the hell you were talking about anyway!

can't wait till kobe retires so people like you can stop watching basketball.

mightybosstone
11-27-2012, 12:03 PM
First of all Kobe is 34 so ofcourse They wouldnt start a team with him.. Second of all Kobe didnt win MVP's thoughout the decade because the media hates him so those are dumb attemps at making a point.. try again Buddy

:laugh: This is so stupid, I did a double take. Some people I try to argue with and others I just take a step back, laugh and wonder if they actually believe the nonsense they're writing.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-27-2012, 12:53 PM
Defense?


true true. i was just so surprised at brook lopez's strong start to the season.
he needs to improve that area before people really admire him because his defense is really holding him back.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-27-2012, 01:13 PM
This is the perfect example as to why it is so hard for normal NBA fans to enjoy Kobe's remarkable start to the season at the age of 34! Kobe slupers place him on a pedestal, and babble all day and say things that aren't even true. lol


.. Second of all Kobe didnt win MVP's thoughout the decade because the media hates him so those are dumb attemps at making a point.. try again Buddy

Spoken like a true KOBE SLURPER! well done! Lemme also take a guess, the NBA hates the Lakers as well right?
Oh try again I shall.



First of all Kobe is 34 so ofcourse They wouldnt start a team with him

what does kobe being 34 have ANYTHING to do with this question


Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments?
1. LeBron James, Miami -- 50.0%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 20.0%
3. Dwight Howard, L.A. Lakers -- 16.7%
4. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 6.7%
Also receiving votes: Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas; Derrick Rose, Chicago

your stupid, irresponsible statement of "players and coaches say kobe is the best player" without any link or proof is just silly. Kobe was barely a top 5 player last year and was out of top 5 the year before.

top 3 or the best is so laughable that it should be used by stand up comedians.

Anyways, your move, Kobe Slurper.

Alayla
11-27-2012, 01:20 PM
LBJ
KD
Melo
Timmy
Gay
Bosh
CP3
Marc Gasol
Rondo (needs to stop stat padding)
Kobe (would be way higher if his team won)

Lopez and Holliday are solid picks as well.

Wait wait WHAT? (sixers fan here)
NO WAY IN HELL holiday is a top 10 - 12 player....

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-27-2012, 01:24 PM
Wait wait WHAT? (sixers fan here)
NO WAY IN HELL holiday is a top 10 - 12 player....

top 15. he's actually had a good start, his ws/48 is bad though.

Baller1
11-27-2012, 01:26 PM
Wait wait WHAT? (sixers fan here)
NO WAY IN HELL holiday is a top 10 - 12 player....

It can be argued that he's played like one to start the season.

Chronz
11-27-2012, 01:34 PM
this is what i was discussing with my buddies a few nights ago. let gasol get the ball where he likes it. Surround Gasol with Meeks and Duhon, with Jamison and Hill. Let Kobe and Howard go to work.
Agreed on that lineup being superior with Gasol in place of Howard but Im not sold on Antawn being a 3 man. I was really hoping that experiment ended with Brown but I guess the Lakers have no other option. So I think they have to either make a move to free up some PF minutes or reconfigure their lineups.

Which is hard to do with their current starting lineup. Its like the Lakers have 3 centers and only 1 PF, but the centers are all worthy of playing time. They have a glut of 2's and 5's.

Money_23
11-27-2012, 01:39 PM
You may not be a Laker fan but u sure do love you some Kobe & you said you wonder what the votes are now that the season has started so I showed you the results... Don't know why you brung up the title of the thread :shrug:

I noticed they also voted on who are the best players from every position. Some players who haven't play a single game were voted into the list so that's what I was wondering. I don't think I've mentioned Kobe at all so don't know why you think I "sure do love some kobe".

It's funny how everyone says Kobe fans accuse everyone who doesn't give props to Kobe to be haters. But it's the exact same the other way around too. Non Kobe-fans: "you gave props to Kobe so you must be a Kobe d*ckrider." except, in this case, you are just insecure and delusional.

I brought up the thread title because.... do you not read and interpret? You quoted Greg Anthony on winning counts, which is what decides MVP favorites. But this thread is about the best players, which is different from MVP candidates. So don't know why what I said was irrelevant when you brought a whole different topic into this thread.

benzni
11-27-2012, 01:41 PM
its 12 games

who gives a ****

Baller1
11-27-2012, 01:47 PM
its 12 games

who gives a ****

Obviously not you.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-27-2012, 01:48 PM
It's funny how everyone says Kobe fans accuse everyone who doesn't give props to Kobe to be haters. But it's the exact same the other way around too. Non Kobe-fans: "you gave props to Kobe so you must be a Kobe d*ckrider."
.

true both sides are bad. the kobe haters and the kobe slurpers. me personally i give props to kobe or whoever it is when it is due. but at the same time im not going to say kobe is the best player in the nba lol cos he isnt.

There has to be a clear distinction between reality and slurpety (lol made up word), Im not sure which one you fall under because I was never in your discussion, but you seem to be reasonable.

for instance, when i talk bout wade, i know whats reality and whats homerism. and i clearly say that my opinion on wade is 110% biased lol
but you will never see me type some far fetched theory about wade and say things that arent true like some of these kobe slurpers do..

Money_23
11-27-2012, 01:51 PM
true both sides are bad. the kobe haters and the kobe slurpers. me personally i give props to kobe or whoever it is when it is due. but at the same time im not going to say kobe is the best player in the nba lol cos he isnt.

There has to be a clear distinction between reality and slurpety (lol made up word), Im not sure which one you fall under because I was never in your discussion, but you seem to be reasonable.

for instance, when i talk bout wade, i know whats reality and whats homerism. and i clearly say that my opinion on wade is 110% biased lol
but you will never see me type some far fetched theory about wade and say things that arent true like some of these kobe slurpers do..

of course. All I said to him was I wonder what the votes would be now and he got all over me and called me a homer. It's annoying with all the random accusations.