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View Full Version : Now that we have a sample size: Looking at the OKC / Houston trade



Corey
11-23-2012, 10:15 PM
http://i.imgur.com/VMKcY.png

Martin has been performing VERY well for OKC. He's been more efficient than Harden so far this year.

Additionally, he's currently matching Harden's numbers for OKC from last season:

http://i.imgur.com/LzT4J.png

Is this really a win win for both teams?

Remember, OKC also got Lamb and picks in the trade.

A lot of people were bashing OKC when this deal was made...I was one of the supporters. Looks like a pretty good deal all around.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-23-2012, 10:18 PM
Yes, it's looking really good for both teams, especially OKC.

I was wrong, I'll admit it.

JordansBulls
11-23-2012, 10:20 PM
Both teams benefitted.

topdog
11-23-2012, 10:30 PM
I thought it was a win-win then and still do based upon where both franchises stand in their team-building process. I like it better for OKC, but can't say that they won when the two franchises aren't even playing the same game.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-23-2012, 10:33 PM
When the trade was made, I said that for the current season, it was an even trade if Martin was healthy. But Martin has to stay for it to be a win win.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
11-23-2012, 10:35 PM
Too soon to tell. Martin's contract runs out at seasons end while Harden's still 23. I do feel like it'll be a win win for both teams for now, but will be in Houston's favor in 5 years unless OKC wins championships because of Martin's performance.

Deception
11-23-2012, 11:02 PM
Too soon to tell. Martin's contract runs out at seasons end while Harden's still 23. I do feel like it'll be a win win for both teams for now, but will be in Houston's favor in 5 years unless OKC wins championships because of Martin's performance.

You also have to realize, he's not a number one option in OKC, he won't be used as much/hard as he was in Houston, I expect him to stay healthy.

kyubi256
11-23-2012, 11:08 PM
The problem is that OKC still isn't playing their best ball. No one had a problem with the guys they got, most just felt it was unnecessary

alexander_37
11-23-2012, 11:08 PM
Well Harden is thriving in Houston so I can't say they lost, but if the Thunder are happy I have no problem saying both won.

kswissdaf
11-23-2012, 11:17 PM
The thunder wont really feel the lose of harden until the playoffs start, then K martin will show what a downgrade he is from Harden

Baller1
11-23-2012, 11:27 PM
Thunder lose because they lost a 23 year old future superstar and a chance of being a dynasty. There's no way they can call it a successful trade.

Super.
11-23-2012, 11:30 PM
The thunder wont really feel the lose of harden until the playoffs start, then K martin will show what a downgrade he is from Harden

Downgrade? Martin is one of the best offensive SG's in the NBA, and has been for a few years.

He's so underrated it's not funny.

chrism8188
11-23-2012, 11:30 PM
even trade. houston was the one reaching i admit because the lack of a go-to guy/star. gave up alot but for a locked in player for years so they pulled it off, OKC needs to win a ship tho, if they dont i see that tipping in HOU favor. if K mart leaves tho and if they free up money and sign a big name or if lamb delevops then great trade for OKC. so far so good you really cant say u would have to wait until the end of the season.

b@llhog24
11-23-2012, 11:47 PM
Houston won. But it's not a bad trade all around. Still need to see how those draft picks and Lamb pan out though.

jon32
11-23-2012, 11:59 PM
Lookin good for OKC ......they're prob gonna get that Toronto Lottery pick they got from Houston which will give them another young stud

Blitzbolt
11-24-2012, 12:06 AM
The thunder wont really feel the lose of harden until the playoffs start, then K martin will show what a downgrade he is from Harden

This I agree with this 100%.

SlimKid
11-24-2012, 12:08 AM
Houston imho.. K-Mart is a temporary option (good btw), Harden is long term. For that reason alone I'll give it to Houston. So far? Even trade

topdog
11-24-2012, 12:11 AM
Lookin good for OKC ......they're prob gonna get that Toronto Lottery pick they got from Houston which will give them another young stud

People neglect this part of the deal. The Thunder have a lottery pick coming who could end up being a very good center, pf, or whatever and Jeremy Lamb who has some solid potential. Further, both Martin and Lamb are shooters which OKC really needed more than another playmaker.

xxplayerxx23
11-24-2012, 12:13 AM
Too ealry to tell IMO, Like it for both teams,

JNoel
11-24-2012, 12:15 AM
Depends on the contract Kevin Martin demands. I voted too early to tell.

Sadds The Gr8
11-24-2012, 12:58 AM
it looks even now, but when the playoffs come around I think we'll see the Thunder struggle. Plus it's still pretty early and Martin is injury prone, so injuries can always happen.

TyrionLannister
11-24-2012, 01:02 AM
Right now it's a win-win, but the verdict won't really be out until we see how Martin handles the playoffs.

c.c.
11-24-2012, 01:21 AM
OKC got the better end of the deal. It would of been equal deal if The Rockets would kept Lamb or the Raptors pick. Harden was gonna get traded no matter what and no other team could of supplied a better package than Martin and Lamb/Raptors pick

astrosmaniac
11-24-2012, 01:38 AM
But Martin won't be this efficient all season. He's on pace for the best TS% in the history of the league. Let that sink in. The most efficient season from a straight guard who attempted more than 10 FG/game (Martin currently attempts 12.3) in NBA history was James Harden last season at .660. Do we expect him to out efficient everyone in the history of the league at his position with similar shot attempts by over 5%? I don't.

We have to wait for more of a sample size. His highest TS% in his career was .618, his eFG% .540, his PER 21.0, ORtg 121, WS/48 is .175. So far in those categories he's been .712, .630, 22.5, 130, and .251 respectively. Do we really expect him to set career highs in all these measurements of efficiency by huge margins?

keetyweedy
11-24-2012, 01:56 AM
still trying to figure out how people think okc got better when harden will easily be a all-star candidate compared to what kevin martin is doing, not to take anything away from k-mart because he gets buckets but harden did a whole lot more than just scoring defense, ball facilitating etc.

last yr was harden's break out yr who's to say he wouldnt have improved? shooting at a higher percentage, defending better, more assist..... as you can see he is doing it with the rockets and the talent on the rockets is not even close to the talent on okc

harden>K-mart easily

BigSwede
11-24-2012, 01:57 AM
right now is win-win but i think in the long run Houston wins

KnicksorBust
11-24-2012, 02:02 AM
Easily a win for Houston.

Quinnsanity
11-24-2012, 03:06 AM
I want to point something out. OKC will probably have a pick in the 4-6 range this year because of that trade. There are a lot of really good big men in this year's class. Nerlens Noel, Cody Zeller, Isaiah Austin, Alex Len, Willie Cauley-Stein and Steven Adams. OKC is going to have their pick of a few of those guys even if they miss out on the top two. Assuming you trust Sam Presti's ability to judge talent in the draft, they might just find the one thing they really lack: an elite scoring big man. Imagine pairing a really good offensive center with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Martin for the short term if he stays or Lamb? Not to mention PJIII hopefully developing, Maynor, Thabo, Collison, this team would be loaded top to bottom at EVERY position. That draft pick from Toronto is the key asset here. If they're picking in the top 6 this year OKC has a real asset.

mightybosstone
11-24-2012, 03:09 AM
It's a relatively fair deal, but you can't look at their numbers and say that Martin has outperformed Harden because he's asked to do far less in OKC than Harden is in Houston. The Rockets still won this deal without a doubt, but Martin's play to start the year does have me thinking that it's fairer than I had initially thought.

DeRozan10
11-24-2012, 03:29 AM
okc got a ****ing amazing deal ... especially if they can resign KMart to a reasonable deal. There gonna get a very high pick from the Raps, and they got Lamb, and they got another pick from the Mavs.

great job by presti ...

Losoway
11-24-2012, 05:23 AM
some things stats dont show . The thunder look very sloppy in the 4th quarter . harden seemed to calm down westbrick and durant

Raidaz4Life
11-24-2012, 08:11 AM
I said it was a win for OKC in the beginning and I stand by that. I agree both teams made off well but I think OKC got the better end of the deal.

YoungOne
11-24-2012, 08:45 AM
someones addicted to affirmation :D

Aleksandar
11-24-2012, 02:19 PM
Could Maynor become a good player? I'm thinking they traded Westbrook instead of Harden..

KB24PG16
11-24-2012, 02:29 PM
depends on whether martin stays healthy throughout the season

ChiSox219
11-24-2012, 02:36 PM
Small sample size and I wouldnt evaluate this trade for at least a few more years.

dee279
11-24-2012, 02:53 PM
I always been saying this was a good trade for both sides and that all who was bashing OKCis underrating the draft picks and Kevin Martin's ability.

alexander_37
11-24-2012, 03:59 PM
People neglect this part of the deal. The Thunder have a lottery pick coming who could end up being a very good center, pf, or whatever and Jeremy Lamb who has some solid potential. Further, both Martin and Lamb are shooters which OKC really needed more than another playmaker.

Pretty sure it's top 5 protected, and the talent outside of the top 5 is usually not near the same level.

dee279
11-24-2012, 04:18 PM
Pretty sure it's top 5 protected, and the talent outside of the top 5 is usually not near the same level.

Top 4 protected I believe.

iam brett favre
11-24-2012, 04:30 PM
Still don't like it for OKC - this year. Guarantee Harden's stats would be better than Martins are right now if he was still on the team.

astrosmaniac
11-24-2012, 05:11 PM
I want to point something out. OKC will probably have a pick in the 4-6 range this year because of that trade. There are a lot of really good big men in this year's class. Nerlens Noel, Cody Zeller, Isaiah Austin, Alex Len, Willie Cauley-Stein and Steven Adams. OKC is going to have their pick of a few of those guys even if they miss out on the top two. Assuming you trust Sam Presti's ability to judge talent in the draft, they might just find the one thing they really lack: an elite scoring big man. Imagine pairing a really good offensive center with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Martin for the short term if he stays or Lamb? Not to mention PJIII hopefully developing, Maynor, Thabo, Collison, this team would be loaded top to bottom at EVERY position. That draft pick from Toronto is the key asset here. If they're picking in the top 6 this year OKC has a real asset.

top 4 protected, so the highest it could be this year is top 5. toronto has also played about half their games without lowry. looking at the numbers (havent had a chance to see them play yet), it looks to me like it's MUCH more likely for toronto to end up in the 9-10 ranger than 5-6

Alayla
11-24-2012, 07:26 PM
But Martin won't be this efficient all season. He's on pace for the best TS% in the history of the league. Let that sink in. The most efficient season from a straight guard who attempted more than 10 FG/game (Martin currently attempts 12.3) in NBA history was James Harden last season at .660. Do we expect him to out efficient everyone in the history of the league at his position with similar shot attempts by over 5%? I don't.

We have to wait for more of a sample size. His highest TS% in his career was .618, his eFG% .540, his PER 21.0, ORtg 121, WS/48 is .175. So far in those categories he's been .712, .630, 22.5, 130, and .251 respectively. Do we really expect him to set career highs in all these measurements of efficiency by huge margins?

Those Stats don't show he was the best player on **** teams his Entire career and now He has Talent around him that Demands the Defense stay honest anyone would be more efficient in that situation.

Alayla
11-24-2012, 07:28 PM
Still don't like it for OKC - this year. Guarantee Harden's stats would be better than Martins are right now if he was still on the team.

Thats a Very Foolish Guarantee.

Alayla
11-24-2012, 07:31 PM
still trying to figure out how people think okc got better when harden will easily be a all-star candidate compared to what kevin martin is doing, not to take anything away from k-mart because he gets buckets but harden did a whole lot more than just scoring defense, ball facilitating etc.

last yr was harden's break out yr who's to say he wouldnt have improved? shooting at a higher percentage, defending better, more assist..... as you can see he is doing it with the rockets and the talent on the rockets is not even close to the talent on okc

harden>K-mart easily

It was such a good argument until this point The lack of Talent is WHY Harden is putting up better numbers he wouldn't be doing this on OKC. There wouldn't be enough Touches for it

Alayla
11-24-2012, 07:32 PM
OKC Won this trade people get over it

astrosmaniac
11-24-2012, 07:44 PM
Those Stats don't show he was the best player on **** teams his Entire career and now He has Talent around him that Demands the Defense stay honest anyone would be more efficient in that situation.


It was such a good argument until this point The lack of Talent is WHY Harden is putting up better numbers he wouldn't be doing this on OKC. There wouldn't be enough Touches for it

wait so when martin is surrounded b better talent, of course he'll put up career highs. but then harden is putting up great numbers BECAUSE he has no talent around him?? that makes no sense

and yes he can be more efficient. but the difference between the best numbers hes ever put up in a whole season and what he's putting up now is astronomical. like a 10% increase in TS? a .075 jump in WS/48? a 9% increase in his eFG%? thats unheard of (considering these are full time impressive numbers already and not deal with bench player type sample size).

if he stays healthy he can be a greatly efficient part of the team. but not historically efficient. i mean a 130 ORtg would be the 4th highest all time. kobe, lebron, d-wade, durant have never topped 120 in that category. chris paul has topped out at 126. manu at 125. it just cant be done by a guard.

LeonFSU
11-25-2012, 02:02 AM
My main problem with it for OKC is that if they do resign Martin next year, and continue starting Thabo, there is still likely to be no playing time for Lamb. Granted he is young and could get time in a couple of years, but the Thunder are obviously prepared to win now. And trying to trade Lamb for a team need probably won't net a big return since he is just sitting on OKC's bench and not showing his value.

valade16
11-25-2012, 02:23 AM
I have to know, are the people saying OKC won this trade looking past this year?

IF OKC resigns Martin he'll have 3-4 more years before an expected decline... Harden will be 27 and hitting his prime, at the EXACT time that Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka are.

And then people bring up Lamb as if he's guaranteed to be a Harden-level SG. How often do players of Harden's level come along? At age 23?

OKC literally had the chance to be one of the best teams of all-time and threw that away. OKC lost this trade, you won't realize until 4-5 years from now, but they lost.

SouthSideRookie
11-25-2012, 03:20 AM
I have to know, are the people saying OKC won this trade looking past this year?

IF OKC resigns Martin he'll have 3-4 more years before an expected decline... Harden will be 27 and hitting his prime, at the EXACT time that Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka are.

And then people bring up Lamb as if he's guaranteed to be a Harden-level SG. How often do players of Harden's level come along? At age 23?

OKC literally had the chance to be one of the best teams of all-time and threw that away. OKC lost this trade, you won't realize until 4-5 years from now, but they lost.

It boggles my mind that not many people mention this. All i hear is the Kevin Martin angle which in reality the Rockets had been trying to use him as a throw in to mainly match up salaries in other trades that never came to fruition.

Like you said, Harden is just 23 and about to enter his prime. He has already lived up to a high lottery pick and is likely going to get better.

KniCks4LiFe
11-25-2012, 03:36 AM
win-win, but looking at it closer HOU made out like bandits.

koberulesall
11-25-2012, 03:43 AM
OKC=redneck meth head with no direction so i will join the marines and become a wife beater, everyone i know from there acts like a caveman, poor super sonics they were such a cool classy franchise.

da ThRONe
11-25-2012, 08:40 AM
Yeah I felt it was good for both if OKC had already determined it wouldn't give Harden a max deal.

No way Harden does what he's doing in OKC and the Thunder are getting similar production from Martin and have a potential impact player for the future.

JasonJohnHorn
11-25-2012, 12:21 PM
I thought it was a good trade for both teams to start with. I felt like Kevin Martin would be playing better because he wouldn't be the focus of the defence, and I figured Harden would step up with more plays being run for him. This is a great trade for both teams. OKC got Lamb, who has some potential, and a first round draft pick, and a vet who knows how to shoot. And Houston got a great all-around player who can lead a team.

StarvingKnick22
11-25-2012, 12:23 PM
I clicked OKC before I saw win-win. Sorry.

JasonJohnHorn
11-25-2012, 12:30 PM
I have to know, are the people saying OKC won this trade looking past this year?

IF OKC resigns Martin he'll have 3-4 more years before an expected decline... Harden will be 27 and hitting his prime, at the EXACT time that Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka are.

And then people bring up Lamb as if he's guaranteed to be a Harden-level SG. How often do players of Harden's level come along? At age 23?

OKC literally had the chance to be one of the best teams of all-time and threw that away. OKC lost this trade, you won't realize until 4-5 years from now, but they lost.

Youhave some very valid observation here. I would agree that Houston got the best player out of the deal and that Lamb is not automatically going to play at Harden's level just because he's a first-round draft pick.

That said, what OKC needed is a cheaper shooting guard who could fill in for Harden and Martin is doing just that. He is not as good an all-around player as Harden, but he's at least as good a shooter if not better. Harden was never going to reach his potential being a third option, and the bottom line is that a max contract is simply too expensive for a third option (unless you are LA or NY). OKC can not afford to pay out three-max contracts.

Both teams got what they wanted in the deal. OKV may very well have been better with Harden than with Martin, but Martin is more affordable, AND OKC got 2 first round picks out of the deal, Lamb and TO's pick this year. TO is playing like $#!T right now and that pick might very well end up being very high (I'm not sure if it's protected or through how many picks it's protected though).

OKC could easily add another solid player with that pick, especially considering how well they've been drafting the last few seasons.

At the end of the day, while Houston got the better player, both teams got what they wanted.

rsweene
11-25-2012, 01:01 PM
Houston didnt have THIS Kevin Martin. They needed a go to guy on Hardens level and finally got him after striking out with D12 over the summer.

OKC got lucky by having KMart Jr stay healthy and play well so far. Theyll get another steal or three in the draft like they have been doing with the draft picks too.

win win

keetyweedy
11-25-2012, 09:55 PM
It was such a good argument until this point The lack of Talent is WHY Harden is putting up better numbers he wouldn't be doing this on OKC. There wouldn't be enough Touches for it

huh? so the lack of talent is why the rockets are 4th in scoring avg 101.3 ppg? with parsons, patterson, asik & morris all improved from last yr ppg avg and all are shooting 44% and better from floor, I agree HE wouldnt avg as many ppg if he where still on Okc but everything would pretty much be the same if not better

LA_Raiders
11-26-2012, 03:26 AM
Houston.