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View Full Version : Is rebounders per game an overrated or underrated stat?



KnicksorBust
11-23-2012, 04:37 PM
As a basketball coach and someone who loves discussing the game, I find myself constantly in situations where you find people discussing rebounding with such conviction. Especially on this website it seems to be met with such reverance as if rebounding was equivalent to scoring and rebounding won games. Now this is not to say that rebounding is irrelevant. In fact, I would argue team rebounding is integral part of success because more possessions will inherently create more points. However, my question focuses more on individual rebounding statistics. Players on great teams AND bad teams both put up outstanding rebounding numbers. This begs the question how much of it is skill and how much of it is opportunity? If a lot of rebounding numbers can be inflated (or deflated) by your teammates, does that make it an overrated stat? Or if it's all skill and certain players could lead the league on any team, does that make it underrated?

Feel free to post examples that you believe are appropriate in matching some of my descriptions.

Hellcrooner
11-23-2012, 04:41 PM
Underated.

Example?

No one ever mentions Nate Thurmond in all time greats threads.

well the dude averaged 15 rebounds in his career AND had a 20 with 22 season and a 19 and 21 season. then a 21 and 19,7 season.

sep11ie
11-23-2012, 04:46 PM
It's kinda like RBI's in baseball. Some find it overrated since you are relying on teammates to be on base OR missing shots, but the player is the one that is actually batting them in OR cleaning up the missed shots...

I personally think it's underrated.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2012, 04:50 PM
Underated.

Example?

No one ever mentions Nate Thurmond in all time greats threads.

well the dude averaged 15 rebounds in his career AND had a 20 with 22 season and a 19 and 21 season. then a 21 and 19,7 season.

What aspect of Nate Thurmond's game was most important to you believing he was an all-time great?

KnicksorBust
11-23-2012, 04:51 PM
It's kinda like RBI's in baseball. Some find it overrated since you are relying on teammates to be on base OR missing shots, but the player is the one that is actually batting them in OR cleaning up the missed shots...

I personally think it's underrated.

Not a bad analogy since much of it is predicated on who is on your team. What makes you feel it is underrated though? Are there certain players you feel don't get enough respect? Or because you feel like it's important aspect of defense?

mightybosstone
11-23-2012, 04:54 PM
I think it could go either way depending on what you value most, but I do think individual rebounding deserves its just due. Defensive rebounding prevents second chance opportunities and offensive rebounding creates second chance opportunities. Having watched a Rockets team that lacked a legit rebounding force from the Rockets lost Yao and last season when they added Camby, I can tell you it makes a huge difference.

I don't know if there's anything more frustrating than watching another team consistently get second chances in an offensive possession or anything more satisfying than watching your team's big man get an offensive rebound and go up for an easy two points.

b@llhog24
11-23-2012, 04:57 PM
Is rebounding overrated in general? No. Is the value put into defensive rebounding overrated? Yes.

Hellcrooner
11-23-2012, 04:58 PM
What aspect of Nate Thurmond's game was most important to you believing he was an all-time great?

Rebounding and Defense + longevity.

Swashcuff
11-23-2012, 05:01 PM
Underated.

Example?

No one ever mentions Nate Thurmond in all time greats threads.

well the dude averaged 15 rebounds in his career AND had a 20 with 22 season and a 19 and 21 season. then a 21 and 19,7 season.

I did, multiple times.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2012, 05:04 PM
I think it could go either way depending on what you value most, but I do think individual rebounding deserves its just due. Defensive rebounding prevents second chance opportunities and offensive rebounding creates second chance opportunities. Having watched a Rockets team that lacked a legit rebounding force from the Rockets lost Yao and last season when they added Camby, I can tell you it makes a huge difference.

I don't know if there's anything more frustrating than watching another team consistently get second chances in an offensive possession or anything more satisfying than watching your team's big man get an offensive rebound and go up for an easy two points.

This is a great example of the opposite. Marcus Camby put up better rebounding numbers by percentage and per 36 minutes as a Rocket at age 37 than in his prime with the Knicks or Nuggets. Wouldn't that make rebounding statistics overrated? There is no way he's a better rebounder now.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2012, 05:05 PM
Is rebounding overrated in general? No. Is the value put into defensive rebounding overrated? Yes.

Do you believe (similar to MBT's post) that defensive rebounding IS a critical part of defense?

KnicksorBust
11-23-2012, 05:06 PM
Rebounding and Defense + longevity.

How do you feel when you see players like Kris Humphries and David Lee averaging 10+ rpg? Are they underrated too?

Baller1
11-23-2012, 05:07 PM
Do you believe (similar to MBT's post) that defensive rebounding IS a critical part of defense?

Yes.

b@llhog24
11-23-2012, 05:09 PM
Do you believe (similar to MBT's post) that defensive rebounding IS a critical part of defense?

Yea.

Hellcrooner
11-23-2012, 05:11 PM
How do you feel when you see players like Kris Humphries and David Lee averaging 10+ rpg? Are they underrated too?

yep they are.

mightybosstone
11-23-2012, 05:14 PM
Do you believe (similar to MBT's post) that defensive rebounding IS a critical part of defense?
I think rebounding as a way to value someone's defense is most definitely overrated. But that's because rebounding is its own thing. There are a lot of great rebounders who are piss poor defenders. Look at Barkley.

This is a great example of the opposite. Marcus Camby put up better rebounding numbers by percentage and per 36 minutes as a Rocket at age 37 than in his prime with the Knicks or Nuggets. Wouldn't that make rebounding statistics overrated? There is no way he's a better rebounder now.
Why can't he be a better rebounder now? He's probably lost a few steps in terms of athleticism, but he's playing fewer minutes and he's not relied upon to make as much of an impact on either end of the floor, so I don't see why his rebounding can't be every bit as good. Plus, as a veteran, I'm sure there's tricks you learn to get positioning in order to make a rebound that younger guys don't know.

Also, it's worth noting that there aren't as many physical 7-footers in today's NBA as when Camby first started playing in the 90s. It's obviously going to be tougher to rebound against Hakeem, Shaq and Robinson than today's crop of centers.

sep11ie
11-23-2012, 05:17 PM
Not a bad analogy since much of it is predicated on who is on your team. What makes you feel it is underrated though? Are there certain players you feel don't get enough respect? Or because you feel like it's important aspect of defense?

Parsons is an underrated player IMO. At the SF he is 2nd on our team in RPGs(by a large margain) and his rebounds always seem to be needed rebounds, not the ones you are "supposed to get". Some players have their stats padded but some earn them.

mightybosstone
11-23-2012, 05:20 PM
How do you feel when you see players like Kris Humphries and David Lee averaging 10+ rpg? Are they underrated too?

I think great rebounders are naturally underrated for their ability to prevent second chance opportunities for other teams and create second chance opportunities for their team. However, it's the same with any player who excels in specific areas but not in others. Look at guys who are only great perimeter defenders, only great 3-point shooters or only good distributing point guards. Those guys are underrated because of their ability for a particular skill, but overall, they're adequately valued because they aren't great overall players.

However, Humphries and Lee are two very different examples. They're both mediocre as hell on defense, but Lee is a very talented, crafty offensive player. Humphries is nowhere near as effective offensively and is seriously overrated, IMO, because of his ability to nail Kardashian sisters and get on reality television shows.

rickshaw
11-23-2012, 05:24 PM
I think a rebounds per minute or even per possession would be better.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2012, 05:26 PM
yep they are.

Does that also make them good defenders?


I think rebounding as a way to value someone's defense is most definitely overrated. But that's because rebounding is its own thing. There are a lot of great rebounders who are piss poor defenders. Look at Barkley.

Why can't he be a better rebounder now? He's probably lost a few steps in terms of athleticism, but he's playing fewer minutes and he's not relied upon to make as much of an impact on either end of the floor, so I don't see why his rebounding can't be every bit as good. Plus, as a veteran, I'm sure there's tricks you learn to get positioning in order to make a rebound that younger guys don't know.

Also, it's worth noting that there aren't as many physical 7-footers in today's NBA as when Camby first started playing in the 90s. It's obviously going to be tougher to rebound against Hakeem, Shaq and Robinson than today's crop of centers.

It's interesting that you'd bring up Camby to provide an example of someone whose helping Houston's defense in such a significant way but then in the next post point out an outstanding defender who was a "piss poor" defender. So how do you equate rebounding to defense? It seems like such a conflict in opinion.


Parsons is an underrated player IMO. At the SF he is 2nd on our team in RPGs(by a large margain) and his rebounds always seem to be needed rebounds, not the ones you are "supposed to get". Some players have their stats padded but some earn them.

Matrix3132
11-23-2012, 05:27 PM
How do you feel when you see players like Kris Humphries and David Lee averaging 10+ rpg? Are they underrated too?

Two things have happened over the last 15 years, the league has gotten much softer and there are more skilled big men than enforcer types. Guys like Humphries and Lee have cashed in because they are some of the few players still willing to do the dirty work.

sep11ie
11-23-2012, 05:29 PM
Does that also make them good defenders?



It's interesting that you'd bring up Camby to provide an example of someone whose helping Houston's defense in such a significant way but then in the next post point out an outstanding defender who was a "piss poor" defender. So how do you equate rebounding to defense? It seems like such a conflict in opinion.

You left me out...

GunFactor187
11-23-2012, 05:33 PM
RPG = overrated
ORPG = underrated as hell

sep11ie
11-23-2012, 05:35 PM
Another question then is this. Who is a better rebounder in cases like: Humphries or Rondo, Lee or Lowry,

Or even would players like Ibaka have more RPGs if he played on a worse team(kinda like how Dwight's RPGs are down by like 3 per game due to being on a better team)?

topdog
11-23-2012, 05:51 PM
Any stats can be inflated/deflated both on good teams and bad teams. Assists can be easier to get if you have better teammates to make shots, but if you have better teammates, you might not have the ball as much. Scorers may may more opportunities on bad teams ala Beasley or they may face more double teams ala Harden. Rebounds can be inflated when the opposing team bails on the rebound and the guards leave the defensive rebound for the big (Minnesota always did this for Garnett), but a lack of rebounding when the opposing team does attack the boards can lead to an easy 2.

THE GIPPER
11-23-2012, 06:01 PM
RPG = overrated
ORPG = underrated as hell

Totally agree.

I think anyone could get 5-6 defensive rebounds in a game just by standing around their own basket (Except Bargnani). Offensive rebounding takes a lot more skill and hustle.

Borough
11-23-2012, 06:03 PM
Defensive boards have too much merit at time.
Also sometimes missed shots just land in a players hand.

Defensive boards are overrated, offensive boards are not

topdog
11-23-2012, 06:07 PM
One of the things you need to consider when looking at good rebounders is their minutes. Humphries for instance has always been a good rebounder. Look at his per 36 minute stats for Toronto, Dallas, New Jersey, ect and he was a 10+RPG guy per 36 on good and bad teams alike. There also looks to be a point in minutes where he becomes less effective perhaps because of fatigue (or perhaps being on a bad team) as his average is 13/36MPG in '10/'11 and '12/'13, but went down to 11/36MPG in '11/'12.

Reggie Evans is another rebounder who has been on many teams both successful and not and his variation again looks far more connected to minutes than the team he is on. The takeaway is that good rebounders will find a way to grab a significant amount of rebounds no matter which team they're on. So leave Kevin Love alone :p

mightybosstone
11-23-2012, 06:08 PM
It's interesting that you'd bring up Camby to provide an example of someone whose helping Houston's defense in such a significant way but then in the next post point out an outstanding defender who was a "piss poor" defender. So how do you equate rebounding to defense? It seems like such a conflict in opinion.
I don't think it's that complicated at all. A great rebounder DOES have an impact on defense, because of his ability to prevent second chance opportunities and create them for his own team. But that doesn't mean a guy can stay with his own man or that he prevents a ton of buckets every game.

For example, suppose you have a 6'8" PF who plays great defense, but only averages 6 rebounds a game because of his size. Or you have a 6'10" PF who plays mediocre defense because he's slower, but averages 10 rebounds a game. If the 6'8" PF prevents his man from scoring four more times than the 6'10" PF would over the course of a game, but prevents four fewer second buckets because of missed rebounds, then they have similar value on defense.

But now compare Camby and Barkley. Both guys were phenomenal rebounders, but Camby clearly is a superior defensive basketball player. In terms of defense, obviously Camby provides more value.

IndyRealist
11-23-2012, 06:16 PM
All per game stats are overrated. Rebounding itself is underrated. Fact is that a certain number of defensive rebounds are "gimmies" bc the other team got back on D. But people undervalue fighting for contested rebounds and don't appreciate that an offensive rebound gives you an extra shot the other team doesn't get. A good offensive rebounder can get 5 or 6 a game and half of those will end with layups.

ee
11-23-2012, 06:18 PM
team stats is what I look for, as long as the team out rebounds the other team.....

Chronz
11-23-2012, 07:26 PM
Team level or individual?

Are you making this thread because no team has ever won a title if it has gotten outrebounded in its first 6 games or whatever the Knicks did recently?

Chronz
11-23-2012, 07:30 PM
But now compare Camby and Barkley. Both guys were phenomenal rebounders, but Camby clearly is a superior defensive basketball player. In terms of defense, obviously Camby provides more value.

Boozer is pretty good on the boards and Sheed was never that good on the boards. Whos a better defender to you? Thats why rebounding is lower on the pecking order of importance.

Jesse2272
11-23-2012, 07:40 PM
Underated.

Example?

No one ever mentions Nate Thurmond in all time greats threads.

well the dude averaged 15 rebounds in his career AND had a 20 with 22 season and a 19 and 21 season. then a 21 and 19,7 season.

Beast

Chronz
11-23-2012, 07:43 PM
underated.

Example?

No one ever mentions nate thurmond in all time greats threads.

Well the dude averaged 15 rebounds in his career and had a 20 with 22 season and a 19 and 21 season. Then a 21 and 19,7 season.

One of my favorite throwback players because of what you say but hes kind of not talked about for good reason. FG%? Winning?

Jesse2272
11-23-2012, 07:50 PM
Team level or individual?

Are you making this thread because no team has ever won a title if it has gotten outrebounded in its first 6 games or whatever the Knicks did recently?

This stat scares me for the Knicks

please elaborate on your opinion?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
11-23-2012, 07:53 PM
RPG for a team I would arguably say is underrated while for an individual it's overrated and rebound % is the way to go for a single player or a player comparison.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2012, 09:20 PM
I don't think it's that complicated at all. A great rebounder DOES have an impact on defense, because of his ability to prevent second chance opportunities and create them for his own team. But that doesn't mean a guy can stay with his own man or that he prevents a ton of buckets every game.

For example, suppose you have a 6'8" PF who plays great defense, but only averages 6 rebounds a game because of his size. Or you have a 6'10" PF who plays mediocre defense because he's slower, but averages 10 rebounds a game. If the 6'8" PF prevents his man from scoring four more times than the 6'10" PF would over the course of a game, but prevents four fewer second buckets because of missed rebounds, then they have similar value on defense.

But now compare Camby and Barkley. Both guys were phenomenal rebounders, but Camby clearly is a superior defensive basketball player. In terms of defense, obviously Camby provides more value.

See I think that's where it gets very messy from a production standpoint. How can you possibly categorize rebounds as "preventing a basket" vs. "standing in the right spot" ?

team stats is what I look for, as long as the team out rebounds the other team.....

So you give little to no value to individual rebounds?


Team level or individual?

Are you making this thread because no team has ever won a title if it has gotten outrebounded in its first 6 games or whatever the Knicks did recently?

Individual. And no.

BallIsAll
11-23-2012, 09:30 PM
Neither.

asandhu23
11-24-2012, 12:21 AM
Nate Thurmond isn't talked about because he wasn't flashy. fundamentals and defense.

KnicksorBust
11-24-2012, 02:05 AM
Nate Thurmond isn't talked about because he wasn't flashy. fundamentals and defense.

Well and he sucked offensively and never won anything.

kblo247
11-24-2012, 08:29 AM
Yes and no. It's important, but there are certain times a rebounder should give one up to a teammate. Tex Winters talked about how great Dennis was at doing both. Dennis could get moe than he averaged but on some nights he knew the importance of boxing out certain guys and letting his team get them. Barkely has also talked about knowing when it's better to just face certain guys up and take em out a play at the expense of a rebound yourself.

I mean take Kwame for example. He isn't a great rebounder at all but when he played with Odom, he was great at boxing his guy out for Lamar to have a chance to get them, and at the same time that meant a Shaq, Yao, Duncan, or KG that he covered wouldn't get a second chance

Sly Guy
11-24-2012, 11:24 AM
underrated. My thoughts on the game is that it comes down to 3 separate but equal facets. Offense, Defense, and Rebounding. Rebounding, simply because it's the highest volume stat that guarantees a possession. About half the shots are missed, so that leaves half the time after a shot, there's a loose ball to go for.

Chronz
11-24-2012, 12:15 PM
Yes and no. It's important, but there are certain times a rebounder should give one up to a teammate. Tex Winters talked about how great Dennis was at doing both. Dennis could get moe than he averaged but on some nights he knew the importance of boxing out certain guys and letting his team get them. Barkely has also talked about knowing when it's better to just face certain guys up and take em out a play at the expense of a rebound yourself.
Did Tex roll over in his grave when Rodman would refuse to play defense in order to chase rebounds?



I mean take Kwame for example. He isn't a great rebounder at all but when he played with Odom, he was great at boxing his guy out for Lamar to have a chance to get them, and at the same time that meant a Shaq, Yao, Duncan, or KG that he covered wouldn't get a second chance
Collins was the best at this, he let JKidd get all the rebounds because he knew it meant instant fast breaks.

That gets at the heart of why some rebounds can be overrated, there are some that could be corralled by their teammates anyways, on average its more important to force the miss than to rebound at a high level.