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View Full Version : PER Leaders so far!



Matter.
11-20-2012, 04:11 PM
1) Kyle Lowry - 32.14 (Injured & 4 Games only)
2) Lebron James - 29.15
3) Greg Smith - 27.75 (6 Games only)
4) Kobe Bryant - 27.63
5) Tim Duncan - 27.53
6) Kevin Durant - 26.51
7) Chris Paul - 26.49
8) JaVale Mcgee - 26.48
9) Anthony Davis - 25.98 (6 Games only)
10) MarShon Brooks - 25.03 (4 Games Only)

Any surprises? Predict your top 10 at the end of the season :D

Ebbs
11-20-2012, 04:16 PM
Lol Kobe and Duncan hit the fountain of youth. It's crazy

LongIslandIcedZ
11-20-2012, 04:17 PM
A lot of this makes me question the 'PER' stat, but its pretty cool to see that Davis is playing really well.

NYMetros
11-20-2012, 04:17 PM
Greg Smith for MVP

ee
11-20-2012, 04:20 PM
marshon only plays like 14mpg, this PER system isn't very interesting.....

ManRam
11-20-2012, 04:23 PM
Yeah, obviously there are surprises. Can't imagine Duncan, Kobe and McGee sustaining this.


People bashing PER because of this, well, calm down and google "sample size".

310Casper
11-20-2012, 04:28 PM
Im amazed at how well and efficient Kobe is playing with the addition of Dwight and the new D'Antoni system. A lot of people doubted Kobe under those 2 additions.

We'll see if this continues for him once Nash returns and the season goes deeper.

Chronz
11-20-2012, 04:30 PM
marshon only plays like 14mpg, this PER system isn't very interesting.....

You dont like knowing how well players are producing given their minutes?

Chronz
11-20-2012, 04:32 PM
Im amazed at how well and efficient Kobe is playing with the addition of Dwight and the new D'Antoni system. A lot of people doubted Kobe under those 2 additions.

We'll see if this continues for him once Nash returns and the season goes deeper.

D'Antoni has only been around like a week and it is yet to be seen if they run his traditional system. Kobe was doing this even while the team was learning Princeton sets. I dont there is an offensive system in existence that can stifle Kobe. That said, this is historically efficient for him. Cant blame people for not expecting the unexpected.

RonE Coleman
11-20-2012, 04:33 PM
Meh, PER is an overrated stat.

Guys like Rondo constantly have an average PER because they don't score much.

Baller1
11-20-2012, 04:34 PM
Surprised Harden fell so quickly after his ridiculous PER to start the season.

Bruno
11-20-2012, 04:37 PM
Lol Kobe and Duncan hit the fountain of youth. It's crazy

x2.

i was thinking to myself during the Lakers/Spurs game- I really hope Duncan doesn't look like this in the playoffs. It was a strange deja vu- ive been watching kobe and duncan go at it like that for over a decade.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-20-2012, 04:47 PM
it'll all even out when its all said and done :)

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 05:38 PM
Why do people continue to bash that which they don't understand? You guys realize you can make a fundamental statistical analysis of an individual and not even use his PER? Honestly nothing really surprises me there though. If have enough brain cells to be able to understand PER, how it is found and what it represents then in truth and in fact you really won't have much of a problem with it.

This is the list of top 20 qualified PER leaders



1 LeBron James-MIA 29.1
2 Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.6
3 Tim Duncan-SAS 27.4
4 Kevin Durant-OKC 26.4
5 Chris Paul-LAC 26.4
6 JaVale McGee-DEN 26.4
7 Brook Lopez-BRK 24.9
8 Chris Bosh-MIA 24.9
9 Eric Bledsoe-LAC 24.0
10 Dwight Howard-LAL 23.6
11 Anderson Varejao-CLE 23.2
12 Brandan Wright-DAL 22.9
13 Kevin Martin-OKC 22.7
14 Jamal Crawford-LAC 22.6
15 Kenneth Faried-DEN 22.3
16 Louis Williams-ATL 22.3
17 Nicolas Batum-POR 22.1
18 Goran Dragic-PHO 21.9
19 Carl Landry-GSW 21.6
20 Carmelo Anthony-NYK 21.6

nickdymez
11-20-2012, 05:44 PM
marshon only plays like 14mpg, this PER system isn't very interesting.....

Advanced stats = FAIL

shep33
11-20-2012, 05:54 PM
No Country for Old Men? Don't tell that to Timmy and Kobe lol

douglas
11-20-2012, 05:57 PM
That is a lot of PER!

felixng2012
11-20-2012, 06:19 PM
Lol people dissing PER when they have no clue what it even means. Ofc people who play small sample size games or play few minutes can have their PER inflated. PER is good for large sample sizes they are based on stats after all. So if a bad player has only played 1 game but happened to do well his PER would be high just like his stats would be....

Lakerfan In NY
11-20-2012, 06:19 PM
Why do people continue to bash that which they don't understand? You guys realize you can make a fundamental statistical analysis of an individual and not even use his PER? Honestly nothing really surprises me there though. If have enough brain cells to be able to understand PER, how it is found and what it represents then in truth and in fact you really won't have much of a problem with it.

This is the list of top 20 qualified PER leaders



1 LeBron James-MIA 29.1
2 Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.6
3 Tim Duncan-SAS 27.4
4 Kevin Durant-OKC 26.4
5 Chris Paul-LAC 26.4
6 JaVale McGee-DEN 26.4
7 Brook Lopez-BRK 24.9
8 Chris Bosh-MIA 24.9
9 Eric Bledsoe-LAC 24.0
10 Dwight Howard-LAL 23.6
11 Anderson Varejao-CLE 23.2
12 Brandan Wright-DAL 22.9
13 Kevin Martin-OKC 22.7
14 Jamal Crawford-LAC 22.6
15 Kenneth Faried-DEN 22.3
16 Louis Williams-ATL 22.3
17 Nicolas Batum-POR 22.1
18 Goran Dragic-PHO 21.9
19 Carl Landry-GSW 21.6
20 Carmelo Anthony-NYK 21.6

I think that is what alot of people (including myself) don't like about using stat to evaluate a player. How does PER or any other stat rate a defensive player meaning to a team?

waveycrockett
11-20-2012, 07:03 PM
Brook Lopez killing it

Chronz
11-20-2012, 07:05 PM
I think that is what alot of people (including myself) don't like about using stat to evaluate a player. How does PER or any other stat rate a defensive player meaning to a team?

It was never meant to measure positional defense or intangibles.

Its like buying a Ferrari and then complaining that your family doesnt fit in it. PER is not meant to be all encompassing, even the creator of the stat has said so since the start, but that wont stop people from complaining.

amos1er
11-20-2012, 07:32 PM
I have a question for all the stat geeks out there. Isn't it possible that there is a direct link between PER and the offensive system that a player plays in?

Example: Steve Nash had career PER under D'Antoni. Kobe is having a career PER under D'Antoni. D'Antoni made Jeremy Lin's career because of the system he ran. Lebron is at his best playing in a similar drive and kick up tempo offense. Now, doesn't a player who plays in a specific offense like this at an advantage when it comes to posting high PER numbers?

Also, this just proves even more that PER is mainly a measure of offense and has a lot less accuracy when factoring in defense. Even Hollinger himself admits this.

NYMetros
11-20-2012, 07:35 PM
I have a question for all the stat geeks out there. Isn't it possible that there is a direct link between PER and the offensive system that a player plays in?

Example: Steve Nash had career PER under D'Antoni. Kobe is having a career PER under D'Antoni. D'Antoni made Jeremy Lin's career because of the system he ran. Lebron is at his best playing in a similar drive and kick up tempo offense. Now, doesn't a player who plays in a specific offense like this at an advantage when it comes to posting high PER numbers?

Also, this just proves even more that PER is mainly a measure of offense and has a lot less accuracy when factoring in defense. Even Hollinger himself admits this.
How does D'Antoni have any impact on Kobe's season so far? He hasn't even coached him for a game yet or installed his system.

JasonJohnHorn
11-20-2012, 07:41 PM
I think Greg Smith and Marshon Brooks are surprises... I woudn't be surprised by any other players on the list. I dunno how long all of these guys will be able to keep it up, but they are all players who make strong contributions to their respective teams.

amos1er
11-20-2012, 07:44 PM
How does D'Antoni have any impact on Kobe's season so far? He hasn't even coached him for a game yet or installed his system.

Just because he hasn't coached in any of the games, doesn't mean that he isn't coaching at all or preparing the team...which he has been doing. Lakers have been running an up tempo offense since Brown was fired. Also, Kobe has had to step in and play pg since Nash went down with his injury. Much like how Lebron is able to pad his stats by playing pg on offense to get assists and power forward on defense to get rebounds.

No wonder the Heat don't want a real center...it would cut into the "Kings" rebounding stats and we all know that can't happen. Never mind that it would be better for the team for them to have a true center, it's all about pleasing Lebron more than about winning...thats why he couldn't win a ring up until recently in a lock out season.

AddiX
11-20-2012, 07:53 PM
The worst stat to happen to psd.

Only a matter of time before the entire timberwolves forum is in here defending it.

KnicksorBust
11-20-2012, 08:30 PM
I'm just mad I spent 10 minutes googling and researching Greg Smith because I was worried that I somehow slipped into another dimension and was missing the next great superstar.

"How can I not know who this guy is?!? I know everything!" :)

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 08:32 PM
I think that is what alot of people (including myself) don't like about using stat to evaluate a player. How does PER or any other stat rate a defensive player meaning to a team?

Wait a minute you don't like using stats to evaluate a player? So tell me how do you? You're a Kobe fan right? What the biggest difference between Kobe last season and Kobe to start this season? Isn't he the same player you've always watched? His production (stats) is way up as a result of quite a few aspects.

If you take the time to learn about stats you'd understand that there are various defensive metrics out there that can give a fairly decent to accurate measure of how solid a player is or isn't on the defensive end. As for PER it takes steals, blocks and DRB into consideration which are all aspects of D.

Question though, why would you want PER to tell you how solid a player is on the defensive end? Are you some how saying that PER should tell you everything you need to know about a player and if it doesn't its a baseless stat? You don't look at a player's 3pt % to understand how good he is at making free throws you look at his free throws so then why do you want something out of a stat that it doesn't directly represent?

Chronz
11-20-2012, 08:45 PM
I have a question for all the stat geeks out there. Isn't it possible that there is a direct link between PER and the offensive system that a player plays in?
Theres a direct link to system/teammates in every stat.


Example: Steve Nash had career PER under D'Antoni.
His highest PER before D'Antoni was 22.6, his first year with PHX, 22.0 It would get higher but its also true the league opened up the game for perimeter players so its not that surprising. Even at his peak your talking about 1.2pt difference pre D'Antoni.


Kobe is having a career PER under D'Antoni.
No hes not, its the highest its been in awhile but hes been having a bounce back season under Mike Brown/Eddie Jordan as well.


Lebron is at his best playing in a similar drive and kick up tempo offense.
Uptempo? The Heat have been average in pace factor and throughout his career hes been on plodding teams. Dont see what your talking about.


Now, doesn't a player who plays in a specific offense like this at an advantage when it comes to posting high PER numbers?
Only if he has the skills but more importantly, if the coach sees that it helps his team.


Also, this just proves even more that PER is mainly a measure of offense and has a lot less accuracy when factoring in defense. Even Hollinger himself admits this.
I dont see how it proves something that was true from the get go.

Chronz
11-20-2012, 08:49 PM
Just because he hasn't coached in any of the games, doesn't mean that he isn't coaching at all or preparing the team...which he has been doing. Lakers have been running an up tempo offense since Brown was fired. Also, Kobe has had to step in and play pg since Nash went down with his injury. Much like how Lebron is able to pad his stats by playing pg on offense to get assists and power forward on defense to get rebounds.

No wonder the Heat don't want a real center...it would cut into the "Kings" rebounding stats and we all know that can't happen. Never mind that it would be better for the team for them to have a true center, it's all about pleasing Lebron more than about winning...thats why he couldn't win a ring up until recently in a lock out season.

And the motive comes out. What about before D'Antoni was even hired?

How is Bron padding his stats again? That he can play every position and be a threat with the pass without losing much defensively isnt padding, its called versatility.

nytunnelvision
11-20-2012, 08:49 PM
I have a question for all the stat geeks out there. Isn't it possible that there is a direct link between PER and the offensive system that a player plays in?


PER is weighed heavily based on "per minute" stats and then later adjusted for pace, or "per possession". So PER would not favor a high paced offensive system like the Nuggets or Bucks

(Although it can be argued the manner in which it adjusts for pace penalizes higher paced teams since it is arguably harder to maintain efficiency over a larger number of possessions/minute).

FriedTofuz
11-20-2012, 08:54 PM
kyle lowry for MVP. haters gon hate. just kidding.

Chronz
11-20-2012, 08:55 PM
(Although it can be argued the manner in which it adjusts for pace penalizes higher paced teams since it is arguably harder to maintain efficiency over a larger number of possessions/minute).

Ive yet to see proof of that, most high possession shots come early in the shot clock. There is no link between pace and offensive efficiency from what I understand.

That said, slow pace may inflate your PER for very different reasons. From a few studies I remember, it seems there is a link between "star usage" and pace. In short, the slower you play the easier it is to funnel shots for your star players whereas in a fast paced offense the possession distribution is spread out more evenly. Because PER values usage, the slower paced player will benefit from the added influence. Just a theory but something to keep in mind

jmoney85
11-20-2012, 09:04 PM
who the hell is greg smith lol

Chronz
11-20-2012, 09:05 PM
kyle lowry for MVP. haters gon hate. just kidding.

This is the 2nd straight year that he gets off to a blazing hot start only to get injured.

b@llhog24
11-20-2012, 09:06 PM
People hate what they don't understand.

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 09:08 PM
People hate what they don't understand.

Basically everything about this thread in a nutshell.

nytunnelvision
11-20-2012, 09:13 PM
Ive yet to see proof of that, most high possession shots come early in the shot clock. There is no link between pace and offensive efficiency from what I understand.

That said, slow pace may inflate your PER for very different reasons. From a few studies I remember, it seems there is a link between "star usage" and pace. In short, the slower you play the easier it is to funnel shots for your star players whereas in a fast paced offense the possession distribution is spread out more evenly. Because PER values usage, the slower paced player will benefit from the added influence. Just a theory but something to keep in mind

Interesting, never realized that, thanks. I was thinking about a few players whose efficiency I thought suffered due to higher pace (the Bucks guards, Kyrie, Curry) just based off seeing them take some early possession jumpers, but I didn't make the connection between pace and usage.

Baller1
11-20-2012, 09:43 PM
People hate what they don't understand.

Or just hate Lebron, and refuse to accept that's he's a monster.

Chronz
11-20-2012, 09:46 PM
Or just hate Lebron, and refuse to accept that's he's a monster.
Definitely this

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 09:55 PM
Just because he hasn't coached in any of the games, doesn't mean that he isn't coaching at all or preparing the team...which he has been doing. Lakers have been running an up tempo offense since Brown was fired. Also, Kobe has had to step in and play pg since Nash went down with his injury.

Completely utterly and totally wrong. Kobe's PER was already near his peak BEFORE D'Antoni ever even came into the picture. This makes no sense.


Much like how Lebron is able to pad his stats by playing pg on offense to get assists and power forward on defense to get rebounds.

All the greatest players in the history of the game (inclusive of Bill Russell) are "stat padders" if you're going to apply that sort of idiotic logic.


No wonder the Heat don't want a real center...it would cut into the "Kings" rebounding stats and we all know that can't happen.

Here is what will happen when you add a real C to the Heat. LeBron's rebounding averages would take a slight hit since you'd figure the C would take some away but his assists would SKY ROCKET (LeBron averaged his best assists #s with old feeble Shaq in the middle and a plethora of jump shooters around) and his efficiency will also go up greatly given the fact that that C would be getting quite a lot of defensive attention (much like Kobe of this season). So in essence had the Heat have a better C in the middle it would help LeBron's game in MUCH more ways than it would hurt. Especially if that C was any good defensively.


Never mind that it would be better for the team for them to have a true center, it's all about pleasing Lebron more than about winning...thats why he couldn't win a ring up until recently in a lock out season.

You really do have an idiotic hate for LeBron don't you? For a Kobe fan to say that everything is about pleasing a player it must be the most foolish thing one can say.

Also that's what happens when you ARE a franchise player. Once you are pleased winning and championships are soon to follow. Am I right?

Baller1
11-20-2012, 10:36 PM
Completely utterly and totally wrong. Kobe's PER was already near his peak BEFORE D'Antoni ever even came into the picture. This makes no sense.



All the greatest players in the history of the game (inclusive of Bill Russell) are "stat padders" if you're going to apply that sort of idiotic logic.



Here is what will happen when you add a real C to the Heat. LeBron's rebounding averages would take a slight hit since you'd figure the C would take some away but his assists would SKY ROCKET (LeBron averaged his best assists #s with old feeble Shaq in the middle and a plethora of jump shooters around) and his efficiency will also go up greatly given the fact that that C would be getting quite a lot of defensive attention (much like Kobe of this season). So in essence had the Heat have a better C in the middle it would help LeBron's game in MUCH more ways than it would hurt. Especially if that C was any good defensively.



You really do have an idiotic hate for LeBron don't you? For a Kobe fan to say that everything is about pleasing a player it must be the most foolish thing one can say.

Also that's what happens when you ARE a franchise player. Once you are pleased winning and championships are soon to follow. Am I right?

:laugh2: No kidding.

amos1er
11-20-2012, 11:03 PM
Theres a direct link to system/teammates in every stat.

True, but only the best players will prosper no matter what the system.

Would Nash put up the same PER in say...the triangle offense? Would Lebron? Doesn't a fast pace drive and kick offense inflate an already great players stats dramatically? Isn't that a part of what we are seeing here with Kobe and what we saw with Nash and Lin under D'Antoni?


His highest PER before D'Antoni was 22.6, his first year with PHX, 22.0 It would get higher but its also true the league opened up the game for perimeter players so its not that surprising. Even at his peak your talking about 1.2pt difference pre D'Antoni.

Nash has always been a player who prospered in a drive and kick - up tempo/multi possession offense. Just because it wasn't with D'Antoni, doesn't mean that it wasn't similar. Can we average his PER in years prior to D'Antoni against all his years with D'Antoni? That would tell you a lot more than taking the two highest against one another.

Again, do you think that Nash would put up such a high PER in the triangle offense? Do you think that he could have won a championship in it?


No hes not, its the highest its been in awhile but hes been having a bounce back season under Mike Brown/Eddie Jordan as well.

His fg% and P&R efficiency were higher under Brown, but his PER took a significant up swing since he started playing in this up-tempo/multi possession offense. Also, he has had to take on the roll of pg since the Nash injury...thus allowing him to pad his assist stats similar to Lebron.

Guess this just proves that Kobe is not a system player and is one of those guys that can be successful in any offense.


Uptempo? The Heat have been average in pace factor and throughout his career hes been on plodding teams. Dont see what your talking about.

Lebron has always operated as a pg on offense and a pf on defense. Both the Heat and the Cavs have had no true pg or center, thus allowing Lebron to unnaturally pad his assist and rebounding stats. Lebron's teams have mainly been comprised of jump shooting big men and 3 point snipers, thus allowing him the open lane to either to drive and kick or go to the hole and score himself.

His offenses have not been as uptempo as the D'Antoni offense, but have been more so than the triangle offense which is mostly a half court set. Lebron is best in transition and there has to be the presence of an uptempo for that to work, so while there is some aspects of a half court set, there is also a great deal of up tempo, which result in more possessions than the triangle offense.


Only if he has the skills but more importantly, if the coach sees that it helps his team.

Like most D'Antoni teams they can do great in the regular season, but struggle in the playoffs. Thus explaining the 05-08 Suns and the 09-10 Cavs.


I dont see how it proves something that was true from the get go.

50% of the game is defense, and PER mostly accounts for offense. Just felt the need to point out it's greatest flaw for those out there who think that PER is the ultimate measuring bar.

MintBerryCrunch
11-20-2012, 11:08 PM
Eric Bledsoe, wow

b@llhog24
11-20-2012, 11:08 PM
Basically everything about this thread in a nutshell.


Or just hate Lebron, and refuse to accept that's he's a monster.

Lol both of these are correct.

amos1er
11-20-2012, 11:17 PM
And the motive comes out. What about before D'Antoni was even hired?

lol...you got me, I was taking a not so hidden dig at Lebron.

Kobe's fg% was better before the D'Antoni hire. His PER is better with the D'Antoni hire

How is Bron padding his stats again? That he can play every position and be a threat with the pass without losing much defensively isnt padding, its called versatility.[/QUOTE]

It's also the product of being a system player. It's all about drive and kick and being surrounded by jump shooting big men and 3pt snipers for Lebron. It worked for him once, but will lightning strike twice?

amos1er
11-20-2012, 11:21 PM
PER is weighed heavily based on "per minute" stats and then later adjusted for pace, or "per possession". So PER would not favor a high paced offensive system like the Nuggets or Bucks

But it did favor Nash under D'Antoni.

(Although it can be argued the manner in which it adjusts for pace penalizes higher paced teams since it is arguably harder to maintain efficiency over a larger number of possessions/minute).[/QUOTE]

According to D'Antoni, the better the player, the greater the benefit will be from more possessions.

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 11:29 PM
True, but only the best players will prosper no matter what the system.

Would Nash put up the same PER in say...the triangle offense? Would Lebron? Doesn't a fast pace drive and kick offense inflate an already great players stats dramatically? Isn't that a part of what we are seeing here with Kobe and what we saw with Nash and Lin under D'Antoni?



Nash has always been a player who prospered in a drive and kick - up tempo/multi possession offense. Just because it wasn't with D'Antoni, doesn't mean that it wasn't similar. Can we average his PER in years prior to D'Antoni against all his years with D'Antoni? That would tell you a lot more than taking the two highest against one another.

Again, do you think that Nash would put up such a high PER in the triangle offense? Do you think that he could have won a championship in it?



His fg% and P&R efficiency were higher under Brown, but his PER took a significant up swing since he started playing in this up-tempo/multi possession offense. Also, he has had to take on the roll of pg since the Nash injury...thus allowing him to pad his assist stats similar to Lebron.

Guess this just proves that Kobe is not a system player and is one of those guys that can be successful in any offense.



Lebron has always operated as a pg on offense and a pf on defense. Both the Heat and the Cavs have had no true pg or center, thus allowing Lebron to unnaturally pad his assist and rebounding stats. Lebron's teams have mainly been comprised of jump shooting big men and 3 point snipers, thus allowing him the open lane to either to drive and kick or go to the hole and score himself.

His offenses have not been as uptempo as the D'Antoni offense, but have been more so than the triangle offense which is mostly a half court set. Lebron is best in transition and there has to be the presence of an uptempo for that to work, so while there is some aspects of a half court set, there is also a great deal of up tempo, which result in more possessions than the triangle offense.



Like most D'Antoni teams they can do great in the regular season, but struggle in the playoffs. Thus explaining the 05-08 Suns and the 09-10 Cavs.



50% of the game is defense, and PER mostly accounts for offense. Just felt the need to point out it's greatest flaw for those out there who think that PER is the ultimate measuring bar.

So wait all this time you've had a problem with Hollinger and you decide to attack him through PSD? There is absolutely no one around these parts that believe PER is the ultimate measuring bar.

amos1er
11-20-2012, 11:52 PM
Completely utterly and totally wrong. Kobe's PER was already near his peak BEFORE D'Antoni ever even came into the picture. This makes no sense.

Proof? Do you have Kobe's average PER under Brown to compare to him in an uptempo offense since the firing?

All I know for sure is that under Brown, Kobe's fg% was at an all time high as well as his P&R efficiency.


All the greatest players in the history of the game (inclusive of Bill Russell) are "stat padders" if you're going to apply that sort of idiotic logic.

So you are going to justify Lebrons stat padding with the old it's ok to jump off the bridge because he did excuse. Cool


Here is what will happen when you add a real C to the Heat. LeBron's rebounding averages would take a slight hit since you'd figure the C would take some away but his assists would SKY ROCKET (LeBron averaged his best assists #s with old feeble Shaq in the middle and a plethora of jump shooters around) and his efficiency will also go up greatly given the fact that that C would be getting quite a lot of defensive attention (much like Kobe of this season). So in essence had the Heat have a better C in the middle it would help LeBron's game in MUCH more ways than it would hurt. Especially if that C was any good defensively.

I agree that it would help the Heat to add a real C to the mix. I just feel that Lebron's stats would take a slight hit...thats all. Not too sure a guy like Lebron would be too cool with it, thats all.

"Old feeble Shaq" was only playing 23 minutes per game that season. Hardly enough minutes to justify your little theory.


You really do have an idiotic hate for LeBron don't you? For a Kobe fan to say that everything is about pleasing a player it must be the most foolish thing one can say.

Idiotic you say. Ouch.

If I were an owner or GM I would understand that pleasing Kobe results in championships. All I have seen from Lebron so far is that pleasing him results in regular season MVP's along with mad props from John Hollinger and the other stats geeks of the basketball world. One ring in a lock out season with that stacked of a team is not enough to make me kneel down to Lebron like so many on here. I don't hate him, I just think he is overrated. He is a great player and perhaps the best in the league currently, but I still feel that people overrate him tremendously.


Also that's what happens when you ARE a franchise player. Once you are pleased winning and championships are soon to follow. Am I right?

Not always. Some are best suited for the regular season.

Chronz
11-21-2012, 12:00 AM
True, but only the best players will prosper no matter what the system.

Would Nash put up the same PER in say...the triangle offense?
Are you asking me if he would prosper or put up the same PER? With Nash the triangle would have to be altered lest you turn him into D-Fish/Kobe hybrid.

And cmon bro, there is no need for the ..... pause, we all know what angle your trying to play. The triangle offense isnt the only legitimate offense. How would Kobe look in the flex? Probably better than Nash in the triangle but thats because Nash isn't a post player.

Which brings me to my next point, why would he play in the triangle? It would be a waste of his talent and if hes the best player on my team or at the least a top flight player on it, it would only hurt the team IMO. Its why I didn't like the idea of a Princeton offense in the first place.


Would Lebron? Doesn't a fast pace drive and kick offense inflate an already great players stats dramatically? Isn't that a part of what we are seeing here with Kobe and what we saw with Nash and Lin under D'Antoni?
What makes it inflated? And no you didnt see that because I just showed you Nash's stats before D'Antoni and you can even look up his production with Porter, we are talking about minute differences here.
Hes already had a better year in Dallas than his first MVP season by PER. We've also seen Kobe in drive and kick offenses (05) and how his production dwindled only to increase the minute he got back into the triangle. Does that mean he didn't prosper because he didn't put up the same PER?

Your Lin argument makes no sense to me, the Rockets are a fast paced drive and kick team, Lowry and Dragic were having great years there, but Lin was mostly an Iso oriented player for the Knicks. Thats not D'Antoni ball and its partly why he has struggled since preseason, that and injuries.



Nash has always been a player who prospered in a drive and kick - up tempo/multi possession offense. Just because it wasn't with D'Antoni, doesn't mean that it wasn't similar. Can we average his PER in years prior to D'Antoni against all his years with D'Antoni? That would tell you a lot more than taking the two highest against one another.
It would not be more telling because it ignores his development as a player and the roster changes. For example in 2003 he had a better PER than his MVP year, he did not sustain it in 2004 because Cuban loaded up on offense by adding Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, even Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels were using up 20% of their teams possession on the floor. Nash saw much less of the ball but responded by being more efficient overall. PER doesn't really reward that however and again, it was minute difference.



Again, do you think that Nash would put up such a high PER in the triangle offense? Do you think that he could have won a championship in it?
So much more gos into winning that I refuse to dignify this question with a long response.



His fg% and P&R efficiency were higher under Brown, but his PER took a significant up swing since he started playing in this up-tempo/multi possession offense. Also, he has had to take on the roll of pg since the Nash injury...thus allowing him to pad his assist stats similar to Lebron.
Uhhh we are like 10 games into the season, are you really going to tell me you know what kind of PER he would put up in a full year under either coach? You can understand why no one, especially statisticians, would take that stance seriously. Its called small sample theater for a reason. Its wildly entertaining, just ask Clipper fans who are enjoying a career year from J-Crossover. I guess what I want to ask you is, why would we weigh a few games above entire years worth of data? Kobe has played in systems where he attacks from the top of the key with high/Side PnR, his passing efficiency was PUTRID and his PER suffered. We've seen his PnR efficiency over the years. But we should ignore that for the sake of a few games from a player at a different point in his career?



Guess this just proves that Kobe is not a system player and is one of those guys that can be successful in any offense.
I dont know of any star player who was a system player.



Lebron has always operated as a pg on offense and a pf on defense. Both the Heat and the Cavs have had no true pg or center, thus allowing Lebron to unnaturally pad his assist and rebounding stats.
Unnaturally? I dont see what your talking about. And how did he play PF in Cleveland with all their bigs?


Lebron's teams have mainly been comprised of jump shooting big men and 3 point snipers, thus allowing him the open lane to either to drive and kick or go to the hole and score himself.
I didn't know Ben Wallace and Shaq were jumpshooting bigmen. But whats your point here?


His offenses have not been as uptempo as the D'Antoni offense, but have been more so than the triangle offense which is mostly a half court set.
Can you explain how a team that finishes in the bottom percentile in pace factor is a uptempo offense? That sounds completely asinine.


Lebron is best in transition and there has to be the presence of an uptempo for that to work, so while there is some aspects of a half court set, there is also a great deal of up tempo, which result in more possessions than the triangle offense.
Thats the beauty of Bron, he doesnt need to be in an uptempo offense to get fast break finishes. He gives your team the dynamic of getting easy buckets while also controlling a slow paced game. Hence his dominance.



Like most D'Antoni teams they can do great in the regular season, but struggle in the playoffs. Thus explaining the 05-08 Suns and the 09-10 Cavs.
Sounds like more made up BS to me.



50% of the game is defense, and PER mostly accounts for offense. Just felt the need to point out it's greatest flaw for those out there who think that PER is the ultimate measuring bar.
I know, I just felt like pointing out that its been true from day 1 and that your post in no way changes anything.

amos1er
11-21-2012, 12:01 AM
So wait all this time you've had a problem with Hollinger and you decide to attack him through PSD? There is absolutely no one around these parts that believe PER is the ultimate measuring bar.

I have seen many one here who act as if PER is the end all be all. Funny how those are the same people who bow down to Lebron as if he were on par with Jordan or something. Trust me, these people do exist.

If you think what I am saying is bad, you should check out some of the crap I have to endure in the Kobe hate forums.

Chronz
11-21-2012, 12:06 AM
lol...you got me, I was taking a not so hidden dig at Lebron.

Kobe's fg% was better before the D'Antoni hire. His PER is better with the D'Antoni hire
Can you show me the numbers because I dont see much of a difference. Also you do realize your stressing one 5 game sample vs another right.


It's also the product of being a system player. It's all about drive and kick and being surrounded by jump shooting big men and 3pt snipers for Lebron. It worked for him once, but will lightning strike twice?
If thats true then you could say Kobe is a system player, its all about having imposing bigmen who can defend otherwise hes missing the playoffs or out in R1 max. LOL hey it sounds like BS but its technically true.

Chronz
11-21-2012, 12:07 AM
All I know for sure is that under Brown, Kobe's fg% was at an all time high as well as his P&R efficiency.

What about last year?

el hidalgo
11-21-2012, 05:52 AM
any thread about PER should be instantly shift-deleted in my mind. its common knowledge that hollinger made up PER to discredit kobe and credit lebron. Hollinger is a notorious kobe hater. get this garbage out of here

Greedy22
11-21-2012, 06:04 AM
This is as bad as the traditional stat users vs saber stats users in the MLB forum :laugh2:

No stat is going to be the end all be all, nor have I seen the educated posters in here use PER in such a way.

Knicks21
11-21-2012, 06:12 AM
who the **** is greg smith?

jerellh528
11-21-2012, 06:20 AM
Kobe is straight balling so far this season, playing the best basketball in the NBA. Lets see how long he can keep it up. One thing is for sure, a season sustained like this would definitely add to his legacy, many feel his legacy is already finalized but throw in a ring and maybe finals MVP with the season he is having and he moves up a spot or two on the all time list.

Alayla
11-21-2012, 07:17 AM
I have a question for all the stat geeks out there. Isn't it possible that there is a direct link between PER and the offensive system that a player plays in?

Example: Steve Nash had career PER under D'Antoni. Kobe is having a career PER under D'Antoni. D'Antoni made Jeremy Lin's career because of the system he ran. Lebron is at his best playing in a similar drive and kick up tempo offense. Now, doesn't a player who plays in a specific offense like this at an advantage when it comes to posting high PER numbers?

Also, this just proves even more that PER is mainly a measure of offense and has a lot less accuracy when factoring in defense. Even Hollinger himself admits this.

In case you outright didn't notice kobe was playing very efficiently even before they brought DAntoni in so this is debunked on the grounds you haven't been paying attention

Alayla
11-21-2012, 07:18 AM
any thread about PER should be instantly shift-deleted in my mind. its common knowledge that hollinger made up PER to discredit kobe and credit lebron. Hollinger is a notorious kobe hater. get this garbage out of here

Lol... did you even read the leaders both kobe and LBJ are in it..

Andrew32
11-21-2012, 07:22 AM
Kobe kind of sucked last year and his PER was low (well outside the Top 10)
Kobe is balling this year and is a legit MVP candidate and his PER is high (well inside the Top 10).

Maybe there is something to this PER stat huh?

;)

basketfan4life
11-21-2012, 07:56 AM
PER is a good advanced stat no doubt. But it surely is overrated in here. Because people who know how to use these stats properly use it, then some other people come here and say things like who was the best player in 1980 just using per, then bash people to death who doesn't accept it, say things like "you don't even know advanced stats, regular stats mean nothing, you are stupid.." I'm sure half of these people don't know how it is calculated.

My main problem with PER or some other advanced stats is, and i'm asking this as a question, i'd be glad if hawkeye chronz patsoxknicks or JB answers this. Is it logical to find a sum using points, rebounds, assists etc etc... I mean isn't it like adding apples to oranges ? Is there a ratio to points to assists or rebounds to assists. How can you add one to another.

I mean, let's call it like this, i have 5 pounds of meat and 3 pounds of potato, and somebody has 12 pounds of potato. Sure he has 4 pounds more to eat, but which is more qualified? How can we determine this ?

So, the better way to me, and it's just me, if we see player A is scoring more with better efficiency we can say he is the better/more efficient scorer. If player B has a better rebounding rate or if his team rebounds better when he is on the court, we might say he is the better rebounder. But in the end you have to add an eye view to it because you can't calculate apples and oranges together. determining this has a little subjectivity no matter how you handle it. We can find who is better at what using advanced stats but to say who is better then who using calculated sums of every part of the game is a little odd to me.

And there are parts you can't even show in any stats. I said this a lot last 2 days, but what Cris Paul does on the court for his team is incredible and you can't know it if you don't watch him.

Patman
11-21-2012, 08:13 AM
But it did favor Nash under D'Antoni.

(Although it can be argued the manner in which it adjusts for pace penalizes higher paced teams since it is arguably harder to maintain efficiency over a larger number of possessions/minute).

According to D'Antoni, the better the player, the greater the benefit will be from more possessions.[/QUOTE]


Just stop it you just don't understand stats at all. LeBron posted a 31.7 PER in the 08-09 Season, his team played at a 88.7 pace which was 5th slowest in the league............. The lakers slow triangle was the 5th fastest offense......

PER adjusts for minutes and pace so a higher pace will not yield a higher per, unless you wan't to say that a higher pace leads to better efficiency in scoring, higher AST% REB% BLOK% STL% and lower TO%.

D'Antoni makes a nice point, if you have a great player you have more possessions with that player on the floor with higher pace, and have the advantage for more possessions, that's why bad teams sometimes try to slow the game down, because they give the opposing team less possessions so the difference should be smaller.

Heediot
11-21-2012, 08:52 AM
I would take a guy like Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace on my team, they don't have the greatest PER.

Rasheed has a better career PER versus Ben. I'd Take Ben.

Horace Grant has a better career PER versus Rodman. I'd take Rodman.

I respect the PER stat but it isn't the be all end all when it comes to impact. There are intangibles and other things that cannot be measured like basketfan4life stated.

JiffyMix88
11-21-2012, 09:05 AM
Before I clicked the thread I was already like ok where is JaVale McGee because that ***** get 17 7 in like 20 mins it seems every night.... Wish Karl would just let him loose

Patman
11-21-2012, 09:20 AM
I would take a guy like Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace on my team, they don't have the greatest PER.

Rasheed has a better career PER versus Ben. I'd Take Ben.

Horace Grant has a better career PER versus Rodman. I'd take Rodman.

I respect the PER stat but it isn't the be all end all when it comes to impact. There are intangibles and other things that cannot be measured like basketfan4life stated.


Great so you would take both of those, based on their Defense and hustle/mentality. None of those things are properly reflected in PER, so why even bring stuff like this up? PER does not claim to reflect intangibles and defensive impact.

Heediot
11-21-2012, 09:25 AM
Great so you would take both of those, based on their Defense and hustle/mentality. None of those things are properly reflected in PER, so why even bring stuff like this up? PER does not claim to reflect intangibles and defensive impact.

Just to put it out there and give some context because too many people use PER as the be all end all. Especially its inventor, Hollinger.

Patman
11-21-2012, 09:30 AM
Just to put it out there and give some context because too many people use PER as the be all end all. Especially its inventor, Hollinger.

Uhm Hollinger is quite aware of those limitations and never stated otherwise, he puts a lot of weight on his stat, but he knows where it's limitation are........ But yeah if you wanna hate on Hollinger do, he at least is one of the few analyst that doesn't just hunt story lines and at least has a basis for his opinions.

Heediot
11-21-2012, 09:42 AM
Uhm Hollinger is quite aware of those limitations and never stated otherwise, he puts a lot of weight on his stat, but he knows where it's limitation are........ But yeah if you wanna hate on Hollinger do, he at least is one of the few analyst that doesn't just hunt story lines and at least has a basis for his opinions.

Hollinger's MVP voting is based on who has the best PER. A guy like Zach Lowe is better he backs up researched advanced stats with context, shows videos clips, and analyzes with both stats and vision.

I don't totally hate on Hollinger, he brings a much needed aspect to basketball research, he does it in a mathematic and scientific way. I read his views with a grain of salt because there needs to be balance aside from numbers.

Besides Zach Lowe, I don't bother taking in anyone sports writers opinion on basketball.

Swashcuff
11-21-2012, 09:48 AM
What's funny about almost every advanced stat argument is that those who don't know much about them claim that they are be all and end all stats and those that actually know about the stats how it is found and what it represents for each player always say there is now be all and end all stat. Funny isn't it.

PER is a Player Efficiency Rating and is calculated as such. It has never been used as a measure of D intangible worth skill etc so why do people keep asking that of it? Do you want a player's PPG average to tell me how effective he is defending the post? So then why apply that thinking to PER.

Swashcuff
11-21-2012, 10:16 AM
I have seen many one here who act as if PER is the end all be all. Funny how those are the same people who bow down to Lebron as if he were on par with Jordan or something. Trust me, these people do exist.

If you think what I am saying is bad, you should check out some of the crap I have to endure in the Kobe hate forums.

I'm sorry I have engaged in almost every statistical based argument here on the NBA forum in recent times or at least read parts of them I really haven't seen it. I think the reason you dislike PER is clear. 1. You don't know how it is calculated or what it represents and as a result you choose hate on it 2. It goes against your ideal of LeBron being overrated and not the best player in the league and Kobe being better than most view him so instead of understanding and learning the stats and making your cases even based on the stats you choose to bash them.

I tell everyone I am an Allen Iverson fanboy so if there is one person that should absolutely hate advanced stats its me.... Why? Because in the eyes of most it has hurt his stock greatly. Instead if hating them I have done my best to understand them and get a grasp as to why he reflects so badly. I now have a better understanding and appreciation for A.I.'s production and in some cases lack of production as a player. Trust me you appreciate Kobe's game even more from a productivity standpoint learn about how he accumulated his advanced stats.

Chronz
11-21-2012, 11:51 AM
PER is a good advanced stat no doubt. But it surely is overrated in here. Because people who know how to use these stats properly use it, then some other people come here and say things like who was the best player in 1980 just using per, then bash people to death who doesn't accept it, say things like "you don't even know advanced stats, regular stats mean nothing, you are stupid.." I'm sure half of these people don't know how it is calculated.

My main problem with PER or some other advanced stats is, and i'm asking this as a question, i'd be glad if hawkeye chronz patsoxknicks or JB answers this. Is it logical to find a sum using points, rebounds, assists etc etc... I mean isn't it like adding apples to oranges ? Is there a ratio to points to assists or rebounds to assists. How can you add one to another.

I mean, let's call it like this, i have 5 pounds of meat and 3 pounds of potato, and somebody has 12 pounds of potato. Sure he has 4 pounds more to eat, but which is more qualified? How can we determine this ?

So, the better way to me, and it's just me, if we see player A is scoring more with better efficiency we can say he is the better/more efficient scorer. If player B has a better rebounding rate or if his team rebounds better when he is on the court, we might say he is the better rebounder. But in the end you have to add an eye view to it because you can't calculate apples and oranges together. determining this has a little subjectivity no matter how you handle it. We can find who is better at what using advanced stats but to say who is better then who using calculated sums of every part of the game is a little odd to me.

And there are parts you can't even show in any stats. I said this a lot last 2 days, but what Cris Paul does on the court for his team is incredible and you can't know it if you don't watch him.
No complaints here

Chronz
11-21-2012, 11:53 AM
Before I clicked the thread I was already like ok where is JaVale McGee because that ***** get 17 7 in like 20 mins it seems every night.... Wish Karl would just let him loose

I dont understand why hes not getting major run. Is his defense still bad? I think youve got to let the kid play and see what he can do with starters minutes.

bucketss
11-21-2012, 11:53 AM
PER is a good advanced stat no doubt. But it surely is overrated in here. Because people who know how to use these stats properly use it, then some other people come here and say things like who was the best player in 1980 just using per, then bash people to death who doesn't accept it, say things like "you don't even know advanced stats, regular stats mean nothing, you are stupid.." I'm sure half of these people don't know how it is calculated.

My main problem with PER or some other advanced stats is, and i'm asking this as a question, i'd be glad if hawkeye chronz patsoxknicks or JB answers this. Is it logical to find a sum using points, rebounds, assists etc etc... I mean isn't it like adding apples to oranges ? Is there a ratio to points to assists or rebounds to assists. How can you add one to another.

I mean, let's call it like this, i have 5 pounds of meat and 3 pounds of potato, and somebody has 12 pounds of potato. Sure he has 4 pounds more to eat, but which is more qualified? How can we determine this ?

So, the better way to me, and it's just me, if we see player A is scoring more with better efficiency we can say he is the better/more efficient scorer. If player B has a better rebounding rate or if his team rebounds better when he is on the court, we might say he is the better rebounder. But in the end you have to add an eye view to it because you can't calculate apples and oranges together. determining this has a little subjectivity no matter how you handle it. We can find who is better at what using advanced stats but to say who is better then who using calculated sums of every part of the game is a little odd to me.

And there are parts you can't even show in any stats. I said this a lot last 2 days, but what Cris Paul does on the court for his team is incredible and you can't know it if you don't watch him.

great post except when you asked jb, check my sig he really doesn't know what he talks about.

Money_23
11-21-2012, 02:54 PM
great post except when you asked jb, check my sig he really doesn't know what he talks about.

maybe he was just being sarcastic in that comment. Skip is right on most things .................................................. ................................















not concerning Lebron.

Lakerfan In NY
11-21-2012, 04:07 PM
Wait a minute you don't like using stats to evaluate a player? So tell me how do you? You're a Kobe fan right? What the biggest difference between Kobe last season and Kobe to start this season? Isn't he the same player you've always watched? His production (stats) is way up as a result of quite a few aspects. The only true way to evaluate a player is by watching that player. That’s why they have scouts, instead of just going by stat. Stat’s lie. That can’t be argued. Stats are good when you have other evident, but a stat alone doesn’t work is what I’m saying. A lot of things can account from increase or decrease in productivity. It could be he’s healthier that he was last season. He came into camp in better shape that last season.

If you take the time to learn about stats you'd understand that there are various defensive metrics out there that can give a fairly decent to accurate measure of how solid a player is or isn't on the defensive end. As for PER it takes steals, blocks and DRB into consideration which are all aspects of D.
What stat is that? What’s accounts for all that? So if PER, accounts for steal, blocks & rebounds doesn’t that favor a small forward for the most part who can get all three more easier than say a PG.

Question though, why would you want PER to tell you how solid a player is on the defensive end? Are you some how saying that PER should tell you everything you need to know about a player and if it doesn't its a baseless stat? You don't look at a player's 3pt % to understand how good he is at making free throws you look at his free throws so then why do you want something out of a stat that it doesn't directly represent?
But according to a lot of people PER is the end all be all in deciding how good a player is. You have a lot of people looking at a players 3pt% seeing its 1.000 & saying “look this guy is a great 3 pt shooter,” when in fact, he’s a 13 man off the bench that got in during garbage time & threw a hail Mary that happen to go in at the buzzer. PER is a good “TOOL” but should be the deciding factor that a lot of people make it. If the person that created PER admits it has faulted why argue its merit in player evaluation? It can be used but not the sole explanation. IMO. There’s too much factors like defense, ORB (which gives your team addition shot attempts that in turn will rise someone else PER), how many points you let up (if you average 30 but whoever you guard get 28pts per night IMO should be a factor, charges, hustle, etc, that it doesn’t account for. IMO, but everyone is entitled to theirs.

PS: Im a Laker fan not a Kobe fan. He’s one player in the history of the Lakers not the other way around.

Sactown
11-21-2012, 04:13 PM
All stats are overrated in small sample sizes...

dh144498
11-21-2012, 04:57 PM
All stats are overrated in small sample sizes...

all stats are overrated if only one is being used to draw a conclusion.

bucketss
11-21-2012, 06:20 PM
maybe he was just being sarcastic in that comment. Skip is right on most things .................................................. ................................















not concerning Lebron.

you haven't heard him talk about tim tebow have you? lolololol

RulerSlick
11-22-2012, 05:45 PM
Lol both of these are correct.

cosign lol