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View Full Version : How Does Zach Randolph Get Boards When He Can't Even Jump?



JNA17
11-19-2012, 10:38 PM
Am I the only one that notices this? :laugh2:

I've watched Zach Randolph for almost his entire career and I am always astounded by the fact that he gets as many boards as he currently does with a very lacking vertical.

Seriously I don't think he can even dunk lol! He's not even a tall PF by today's NBA standards, he's not the strongest big man, and he can't jump well at all. How is it possible that this guy always averages 11+ rebounds a game? (leading the league I think currently with 13+)

justinnum1
11-19-2012, 10:38 PM
he gets great position

greg_ory_2005
11-19-2012, 10:41 PM
Because grabbing rebounds takes much more than just jumping high

mzgrizz
11-19-2012, 10:42 PM
Leading the NBA with 13.9 RPG
He has a nose for where the ball is going(kind of like Rodman but without the leap)
He is stubbornly persistent and virtually never gives up on a play

SmartestGuyHere
11-19-2012, 10:44 PM
his fat *** pushes players away.

GREATNESS ONE
11-19-2012, 10:46 PM
Bahahahahaha :laugh:

Hustla23
11-19-2012, 10:50 PM
Zbonics

UPRock
11-19-2012, 10:52 PM
Long Arms.

Hellcrooner
11-19-2012, 10:54 PM
good positioning + a lot of weight to push around the other players.
barkley had both things too ( altough he jumped higher)

Hawkeye15
11-19-2012, 10:55 PM
How does Love do it? Its called understanding.

First, both have a WIDE base, and can not be pushed off their spot. They understand trajectory, and where misses go. Strong hands, wide base, and knowing that 70% of misses are coming to the weak side on both ends. Its all about establishing position.

Which is why I have a hard time believing those who say defensive rebounding is so overrated, and shouldn't be a measure. Um, if 30% of rebounds become TEAM rebounds, please tell me why certain guys are always, and I mean always, in the right position?

BKLYNpigeon
11-19-2012, 11:03 PM
The Headband on Z-bos head is really tight and allows him to focus more when grabbing boards.

HYFR
11-19-2012, 11:05 PM
Positioning and instincts... Always knowing where the ball is goin off of the rim

HYFR
11-19-2012, 11:06 PM
The Headband on Z-bos head is really tight and allows him to focus more when grabbing boards.

Lol!

JNA17
11-19-2012, 11:09 PM
How does Love do it? Its called understanding.

First, both have a WIDE base, and can not be pushed off their spot. They understand trajectory, and where misses go. Strong hands, wide base, and knowing that 70% of misses are coming to the weak side on both ends. Its all about establishing position.

Which is why I have a hard time believing those who say defensive rebounding is so overrated, and shouldn't be a measure. Um, if 30% of rebounds become TEAM rebounds, please tell me why certain guys are always, and I mean always, in the right position?

Yeah Love too but Love doesn't have a crap vertical like Zach does. :laugh:

I understand positioning is very key to rebounding too, but to rely on that alone? Without having any kind of athleticism or strength and still getting 11 or 12+ boards a game? I just find that amazing.

Also anyone that says ANY kind of rebounds are overrated doesn't really understand how most basketball games are won.

MetroMan
11-19-2012, 11:11 PM
He thinks the ball is a Twinkie and since the factory closed down he wants to get every Twinkie possible

Hawkeye15
11-19-2012, 11:13 PM
Yeah Love too but Love doesn't have a crap vertical like Zach does. :laugh:

I understand positioning is very key to rebounding too, but to rely on that alone? Without having any kind of athleticism or strength and still getting 11 or 12+ boards a game? I just find that amazing.

Also anyone that says ANY kind of rebounds are overrated doesn't really understand how most basketball games are won.

Well, its about conditioning as well. Great rebounders have very strong hands. Many of them study opponents, the main ones, to see which way they miss (Rodman and Love did/do this). ****, Love just broke his hand doing finger pushups, something that has served him well in that department. You need to keep your head on a swivel, so you know when a shot is about to go up, and then get position, be wide, and unable to be moved. This is how the great rebounders do it.

Bulls_fan90
11-19-2012, 11:13 PM
Is this really a question?

It's like me asking, why doesn't Tyrus Thomas lead the league in rebounds?

Cromedome
11-19-2012, 11:15 PM
Long arms.

/thread.

ee
11-19-2012, 11:23 PM
positioning and upper body strength...

xxplayerxx23
11-19-2012, 11:32 PM
Look at back in the day Barkley used to dominate the boards. Its about will and boxing out.

kylem4711
11-19-2012, 11:34 PM
dude knows his angles

Blitzbolt
11-19-2012, 11:41 PM
He has about 6 total dunks in 4 years as a Grizz.

GiantsSwaGG
11-19-2012, 11:43 PM
Because he's fat

tnewkirk
11-19-2012, 11:46 PM
Because grabbing rebounds takes much more than just jumping high

you're a big may fan huh?

Jint.
11-19-2012, 11:51 PM
kind of like Charles Oakley was..

el hidalgo
11-20-2012, 12:00 AM
He thinks the ball is a Twinkie and since the factory closed down he wants to get every Twinkie possible

:cricket:

Bishnoff
11-20-2012, 12:24 AM
Because grabbing rebounds takes much more than just jumping high

This.

Positioning, using a low centre of gravity to box out, reading the bounce of the ball off the ring/backboard etc. is more important than being able to jump high or having a long reach.

TheSource
11-20-2012, 12:38 AM
Good footwork and positioning, good at guessing where the ball would be, being able and remembering to box out.

Being at the right place at the right time essentially.

Losoway
11-20-2012, 01:06 AM
rebounding is all bout positioning .

Laker Legend42
11-20-2012, 08:21 AM
Am I the only one that notices this? :laugh2:

I've watched Zach Randolph for almost his entire career and I am always astounded by the fact that he gets as many boards as he currently does with a very lacking vertical.

Seriously I don't think he can even dunk lol! He's not even a tall PF by today's NBA standards, he's not the strongest big man, and he can't jump well at all. How is it possible that this guy always averages 11+ rebounds a game? (leading the league I think currently with 13+)

He does it the same way Larry bird did. Body position. Rebounds do go to the highest leader all the time. The man who knows how to box out will win mor times than not. If a player relies on pure athleticism in a lot of cases he ends up with the over the back foul. Basketball I.Q. Randolph thinks the game.

bobcat fan
11-20-2012, 08:41 AM
he utilise his strength on boxing out and good positioning. he doesnt have the strength to jump high.

TheNumber37
11-20-2012, 09:01 AM
Size, length, positioning.

ZHawk1123
11-20-2012, 09:20 AM
Position, instincts, size...

JasonJohnHorn
11-20-2012, 09:42 AM
Rebounding is about getting position and boxing your player out. If you get the guy behind you, the rebound is yours. If he jumps over you and gets the rebound, it is likely going to be an over-the-back foul.

Larry Bird did the same thing. I mean, Larry couldn't just over an envelope.

D-Leethal
11-20-2012, 11:02 AM
Its all about positioning. Same way Kevin Love does it.

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 11:29 AM
How does Love do it? Its called understanding.

First, both have a WIDE base, and can not be pushed off their spot. They understand trajectory, and where misses go. Strong hands, wide base, and knowing that 70% of misses are coming to the weak side on both ends. Its all about establishing position.

Which is why I have a hard time believing those who say defensive rebounding is so overrated, and shouldn't be a measure. Um, if 30% of rebounds become TEAM rebounds, please tell me why certain guys are always, and I mean always, in the right position?

Preach Hawkeye15 preach

MrfadeawayJB
11-20-2012, 12:32 PM
Combination of a nose for the ball, great positioning, strong hands, wide base, and long arms. Don't have to jump too high when your arms are so long!

Chronz
11-20-2012, 12:36 PM
Preach Hawkeye15 preach

I didn't get the point of that post. Whats he preaching because Im among those people hes talking about, hopefully you can clear it up for me.

Cal827
11-20-2012, 12:38 PM
Hustle, and gravitational pull on the basketball help him immensely

Chronz
11-20-2012, 12:39 PM
Also anyone that says ANY kind of rebounds are overrated doesn't really understand how most basketball games are won.
Actually it means you dont understand what the word overrated means. It also means you have no grasp on what studies have shown regarding rebounding. Why do you jumble rebounds together as if they are all equally valuable? I mean really, ANY kind of rebound? Certain kinds of rebounds are more valuable than others, thus others are less valuable, to the point where they are basically useless. The kind the team would have rebounded anyways if you didnt grab it, these rebounds exists.

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 12:51 PM
I didn't get the point of that post. Whats he preaching because Im among those people hes talking about, hopefully you can clear it up for me.

That it matters not how much research is done, how many stats we quote or whatever anyone who doesn't value defensive rebounding has to say at the end of the day its a skill (a very important one at that). You can never quantify one player being a vastly superior defensive rebounder when and say its just a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

If you don't think defensive rebounding has any skill to it and its just a matter of probability and chance then you really aren't being serious about it.

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 12:56 PM
Actually it means you dont understand what the word overrated means. It also means you have no grasp on what studies have shown regarding rebounding. Why do you jumble rebounds together as if they are all equally valuable? I mean really, ANY kind of rebound? Certain kinds of rebounds are more valuable than others, thus others are less valuable, to the point where they are basically useless. The kind the team would have rebounded anyways if you didnt grab it, these rebounds exists.

I've read some (admittedly not as much as I could have) and have a semi decent grasp and their POV I just don't agree that its overrated.

Because certain kinds of rebounds holds more value than other that doesn't mean that one kind is overrated. Its less valuable simple as that. That's like saying a 3 pointer is more valuable than a two so a two is overrated.

When any statistician, columnist, historian or hell average Joe can explain to me why exactly one player is better than others at defensive rebounding without mentioning the fact that there is some sort of skill, ability, IQ etc involved I'd say its overrated until then I can never agree to that.

Hawkeye15
11-20-2012, 01:02 PM
I didn't get the point of that post. Whats he preaching because Im among those people hes talking about, hopefully you can clear it up for me.

I will clear it up for you. So, defensive rebounding is overrated. That is the theory. Players who snatch defensive rebounds are not having as big of an impact as many other facets, right? So why do certain players ALWAYS happen to be in that 30% area where team rebounds fall, the rebounds that are the culprit of the skill being overrated? Perhaps some players are just so much stronger than the mean, it does indeed become a skill that is as valuable as any other.

I have seen the charts. I have heard the reasons. Being a guy who makes sure, on a nightly basis, that the other teams second chance points are limited, is a valuable skill, not to be overrated.

I can not be convinced that rebounding is not a skill that some players absolutely excel at. Both sides of the ball. It requires positioning, strength, anticipation, strong hands, desire, and so many things that most guys are not willing to do. I just don't see how it can be overrated on the defensive end. Most guys love playing with a guy like Love. It means they don't have to get their hands dirty.

Nick O
11-20-2012, 01:07 PM
The Oakman was the same.. great positioning

mavwar53
11-20-2012, 01:12 PM
Cause anyone that knows anything about rebounding knows you don't need to jump to be a great rebounder

ManningToTyree
11-20-2012, 01:12 PM
He throws his weight around and gets good position.

Stinkyoutsider
11-20-2012, 01:15 PM
Positioning and he outworks his opponents for rebounds...

I've noticed that some players get lazy sometimes and don't box out. That's when a guy like ZBo takes advantage.

Just imagine if a guys like who were more athletic had the work ethic of ZBo? There would be more double digit rebounders in the NBA.

killbumdeluxe13
11-20-2012, 01:20 PM
positioning and boxing out, same reason why Jason Kidd has been able to out rebound some big men for most of his career. Hustle on defense

Da Knicks
11-20-2012, 01:23 PM
Many people put down the positioning factor as well as the large base. Memphis has two players who are hard to rebound over in zbo and gasol because of the size and iq. Boxing out is a lost art as is posting up on offense, my favorite players do this and these guys will be the ones who can play well into the late 30's because of it. Athletism only lasts so long and then skill has to take over, the younger players with skill will be the masters in short time.

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 01:24 PM
Positioning and he outworks his opponents for rebounds...

I've noticed that some players get lazy sometimes and don't box out. That's when a guy like ZBo takes advantage.

Just imagine if a guys like who were more athletic had the work ethic of ZBo? There would be more double digit rebounders in the NBA.

Remember when ZBo was a lazy, blackhole loser? Oh how the view of a play can change when he starts winning.

nyKnicks126
11-20-2012, 01:25 PM
Jumping is not really a factor if you hustle and box out.......Plus he has good timing on his 3 inch vertical..

JNoel
11-20-2012, 01:25 PM
Like many said he gets good positioning, and uses his frame to box out.

Hellcrooner
11-20-2012, 01:33 PM
Remember when ZBo was a lazy, blackhole loser? Oh how the view of a play can change when he starts winning.

he is still a blackhole, but at least he is lazy no more.

And people dont really notice the black hole part because there is another one in the team much more notorious.

Gram
11-20-2012, 01:37 PM
Zach Randolph.

Chronz
11-20-2012, 01:50 PM
That it matters not how much research is done, how many stats we quote or whatever anyone who doesn't value defensive rebounding has to say at the end of the day its a skill (a very important one at that).
Empty gesture, nobody ever said it wasn't a skill. Just an overrated one from my perspective. The fact that studies have shown how many empty rebounds there are have only lend credence to my opinion.


You can never quantify one player being a vastly superior defensive rebounder when and say its just a matter of being in the right place at the right time.
Thank god I never have.



Because certain kinds of rebounds holds more value than other that doesn't mean that one kind is overrated. Its less valuable simple as that. That's like saying a 3 pointer is more valuable than a two so a two is overrated.
Agreed, its when you make blanket statements like "ANY KIND OF REBOUND" not being overrated that you begin to overrate the statistical impact of rebounding.

And in this comparison you can compare a statistical figure (a defensive rebound) with the same statistical figure. Value wise, I get your example tho.


When any statistician, columnist, historian or hell average Joe can explain to me why exactly one player is better than others at defensive rebounding without mentioning the fact that there is some sort of skill, ability, IQ etc involved I'd say its overrated until then I can never agree to that.
Then you dont know what the term overrated means. You can be a better rebounder than someone else, and rebounding can still be overrated. It all depends on what is said/discovered. Its a vague opinion I know, thats why I only bring the topic up when someone uses blanket statements that dont touch on why people feel the way they do.

I just found it curious that you agreed with Hawkeye on such a nondescript argument. Between you and me, I dont know if you overrate rebounding because I honestly dont know how much you value it.

When people say rebounding is overrated, its usually a response to someones thoughts on statistical correlation. For example, the people in the WoW crowd, the majority of the APBR community thinks they overrate rebounding at the individual level. Something you have agreed on, so in a way, you have already agreed that some people overrate rebounding.

Between you and me however, I would need to know how you rank defensive rebounding among boxscore based stats, I wont ask you to give me some weighted figures but a simple team ranking would be a good start. Like would it rank behind FT's, FG%, opponent FG% etc...



I will clear it up for you. So, defensive rebounding is overrated. That is the theory. Players who snatch defensive rebounds are not having as big of an impact as many other facets, right? So why do certain players ALWAYS happen to be in that 30% area where team rebounds fall, the rebounds that are the culprit of the skill being overrated? Perhaps some players are just so much stronger than the mean, it does indeed become a skill that is as valuable as any other.
Youve tried to explain it remember, all your suggesting is that some players excel at grabbing useless rebounds, why would that be a skill as valuable as any other?

ManningToTyree
11-20-2012, 01:52 PM
Remember when ZBo was a lazy, blackhole loser? Oh how the view of a play can change when he starts winning.

he is still a blackhole.

JNoel
11-20-2012, 01:52 PM
Zach Randolph.

Zach Gramdolph

Showtime Steve
11-20-2012, 01:57 PM
Timing. Not always about how high you jump, but when you jump.

Chronz
11-20-2012, 02:00 PM
he is still a blackhole, but at least he is lazy no more.

And people dont really notice the black hole part because there is another one in the team much more notorious.

Nah people dont notice the black hole thing because hes become less of a blackhole and a far more efficient one.

People can forgive tunnel vision if you score well enough. Z-Bo wasn't doing that before Memphis.

Furymaker
11-20-2012, 02:05 PM
boxing out and great positioning + strength

jiggin
11-20-2012, 02:07 PM
great position and boxes out...these are the foundation of rebounding. By doing those 2 actions, you don't have to be able to jump out of the building to get rebounds.

Tysons_Beard
11-20-2012, 02:17 PM
strength

WAYNEBO
11-20-2012, 02:27 PM
It is truly amazing how he gets so many boards.

TeamSeattle
11-20-2012, 02:41 PM
Its really not that hard to understand how he gets so many boards. Watch tape of how he jumps when he goes for the ball. He has a low base which gives him great position to be planted and box-out for the board. He subtly gets away with small pushes right at the point of when the defender jumps for the ball, he just never gets called for it. Its all about playing through your deficiencies and fooling the refs at the same time.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-20-2012, 04:02 PM
positioning.

/closed.

RonE Coleman
11-20-2012, 04:05 PM
All about positioning and knowing how the ball will come off the rim from different angles.

Rodman said he used to study how Jordan and Pippens shots came off the rim.

Don't need to be a superior athlete if you are constantly in the right position.

Six-8-TheWizard
11-20-2012, 04:48 PM
Lol at the thread title

Swashcuff
11-20-2012, 05:51 PM
Empty gesture, nobody ever said it wasn't a skill. Just an overrated one from my perspective. The fact that studies have shown how many empty rebounds there are have only lend credence to my opinion.


Thank god I never have.


Agreed, its when you make blanket statements like "ANY KIND OF REBOUND" not being overrated that you begin to overrate the statistical impact of rebounding.

And in this comparison you can compare a statistical figure (a defensive rebound) with the same statistical figure. Value wise, I get your example tho.


Then you dont know what the term overrated means. You can be a better rebounder than someone else, and rebounding can still be overrated. It all depends on what is said/discovered. Its a vague opinion I know, thats why I only bring the topic up when someone uses blanket statements that dont touch on why people feel the way they do.

I just found it curious that you agreed with Hawkeye on such a nondescript argument. Between you and me, I dont know if you overrate rebounding because I honestly dont know how much you value it.

When people say rebounding is overrated, its usually a response to someones thoughts on statistical correlation. For example, the people in the WoW crowd, the majority of the APBR community thinks they overrate rebounding at the individual level. Something you have agreed on, so in a way, you have already agreed that some people overrate rebounding.

Between you and me however, I would need to know how you rank defensive rebounding among boxscore based stats, I wont ask you to give me some weighted figures but a simple team ranking would be a good start. Like would it rank behind FT's, FG%, opponent FG% etc...



Youve tried to explain it remember, all your suggesting is that some players excel at grabbing useless rebounds, why would that be a skill as valuable as any other?

I've never really put any thought into where I would rank each and every box score stat. When comparing it to other stats like FG%, FT%, FTM, FGM etc I guess its all a matter of context. Its a tough question for me to answer right away I guess I'll have to think about it a bit more and get back to you. Roughly if I were to think I'd say it would be among the upper 3rd in terms of importance though.

As for the WoW community and the value they put into rebounding I fully agree. They overrate the hell out of it and even worse IMO live and die by their stats without taking most other factors into consideration. It just rubs me the wrong way so I can surely agree to that.

My hang up with the defensive rebounding argument by some was that they made it seem as if DReb is less of a skill and more of a chance. If that wasn't your intention my apologies I misunderstood. I appreciate all the research that has been done in terms of the value of offensive and defensive rebounding but I will always maintain that they are both skills and despite what others (not speaking of yourself) may say defensive rebounding goes further than just the metric.

He115ing
11-20-2012, 05:59 PM
hustle, timing, positioning, strength.

TmacBryant
11-20-2012, 06:13 PM
How does Love do it? Its called understanding.

First, both have a WIDE base, and can not be pushed off their spot. They understand trajectory, and where misses go. Strong hands, wide base, and knowing that 70% of misses are coming to the weak side on both ends. Its all about establishing position.

Which is why I have a hard time believing those who say defensive rebounding is so overrated, and shouldn't be a measure. Um, if 30% of rebounds become TEAM rebounds, please tell me why certain guys are always, and I mean always, in the right position?

just look at a Millsap who is 6 ft 8 ...

Teeboy1487
11-20-2012, 06:16 PM
How does Love do it? Its called understanding.

First, both have a WIDE base, and can not be pushed off their spot. They understand trajectory, and where misses go. Strong hands, wide base, and knowing that 70% of misses are coming to the weak side on both ends. Its all about establishing position.

Which is why I have a hard time believing those who say defensive rebounding is so overrated, and shouldn't be a measure. Um, if 30% of rebounds become TEAM rebounds, please tell me why certain guys are always, and I mean always, in the right position?

Pretty much this.

sep11ie
11-20-2012, 06:28 PM
It's called ZBO mind control

BALLER R
11-20-2012, 06:53 PM
Fundamentals

onlythisfar41
11-20-2012, 07:05 PM
Positioning and smarts, when he was on the Knicks I was always amazed how the ball seemed to gravitate to him no matter what.

LaLa_Land
11-20-2012, 07:15 PM
How does Love do it? Its called understanding.

First, both have a WIDE base, and can not be pushed off their spot. They understand trajectory, and where misses go. Strong hands, wide base, and knowing that 70% of misses are coming to the weak side on both ends. Its all about establishing position.

Which is why I have a hard time believing those who say defensive rebounding is so overrated, and shouldn't be a measure. Um, if 30% of rebounds become TEAM rebounds, please tell me why certain guys are always, and I mean always, in the right position?

End the thread. Everything one needs to know is right there.

mzgrizz
11-21-2012, 12:03 AM
he is still a blackhole, but at least he is lazy no more.

And people dont really notice the black hole part because there is another one in the team much more notorious.

Give me a break hellcrooner. A stellar team with an 8-2 record didn't get that way with 2 black holes and 1 galaxy. :shrug:

MackSnackWrap
11-21-2012, 12:18 AM
he thinks the ball is a twinkie and since the factory closed down he wants to get every twinkie possible

lol!

AIRMAR72
11-21-2012, 12:19 AM
The same way dirk gets them length and position

koreancabbage
11-21-2012, 12:26 AM
his caboose.

PurpleJesus
11-21-2012, 12:30 AM
its the same thing with Kevin Love, and everyone wants to compare Love to Nowtizki or Larry Bird because he is a white player who can shoot...Love's game is much more like Randolphs than any of the other comparisons I usually see.

yanksrock
11-21-2012, 12:43 AM
Positioning + Strength = Rebounds

JEDean89
11-21-2012, 05:51 AM
Z-Bo is fun to watch rebounding but Kenneth Faried has become my favorite rebounder in the game. he is averaging over 11 in just over 31 mins a game. He, like love and z-bo has great positioning but he has a leaping ability that has turned him into the #1 offensive rebounder in the league in just the beginning of his sophomore year. The fricking ball will have been all but rebounded when Kenneth flies in out of nowhere and rips the rebound down. You never see this guy get his hands on a rebound and not get the posession. you can tell he's the guy that players just dread having to match up against because he is never gonna give up on the play no matter what. good rebounders tend to have a tenacity about them that makes them so good. Z-Bo is a great rebounder but i doubt he stays at this level of rebounding for the whole season.