PDA

View Full Version : MLB to Blame in Miami



Russollini
11-17-2012, 10:50 AM
Being a baseball fan all my life, and watching all the craziness in Miami right now, I am surprised that no body has explored Loria's history. He was the owner of the Expos from 1999 until they moved towards contraction in 2002. He played the same exact games there. He overpaid for non stars, pushed for a stadium, infuriated the fan base (getting rid of all English broadcasts for instance) and was negotiating to buy the Marlins prior to the contractin of the Expos. In 2001, John Henry sold him the Marlins then bought the Red Sox. When Loria left he took the entire managing staff and all the computer/video systems. He left the team with nothing in the Front Office. MLB was forced to buy the Expos. The MLB run Expos later moved to DC as the Nationals when contraction failed. Loria was an awful owner then and an even worse owner now. Miami is stuck with him though thanks to Selig and some bad business decisions by MLB. They should have put a stop to this before it happened. In 3 years as an owner of the Expos he destroyed baseball there. Fans per game, about 6k. Sound familiar?

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/mtlexpos/expos.html

Tmath
11-17-2012, 12:07 PM
Didn't read but..

Loria spent big money, but the miami fans still didn't show up, so they only have themselves to blame.

Loria won two world series by doing this before, so maybe just wait and see how everything turns out before whining over it.

infernoscurse
11-17-2012, 12:26 PM
if you fielded a team full of republicans the stadium would be full

Mr. Baller
11-17-2012, 12:29 PM
Didn't read but..

Loria spent big money, but the miami fans still didn't show up, so they only have themselves to blame.

Loria won two world series by doing this before, so maybe just wait and see how everything turns out before whining over it.

no he didnt. he only won the 2nd one and that was at the very beginning of his tenure, he didn't put the majority of that team together

Russollini
11-17-2012, 12:29 PM
OK, not whining at all, read the post as admittedly you did not. I am a Yankee Fan, but grew up in Ft. Lauderdale. I am speaking about an owner that does not belong in the game as he has manipulated fans and communities for a decade and half. He has a history.

Yes, he has won ONE WS in So. Florida, but he lied to the fans many times over the years and continues to build teams to destroy them. He did the same thing then as he did now. He came in and wanted to energize the fan base, and did. He then torched the team when they were finished. He kills the fan base constantly. The fans did not show up because of a number of issues including lack of trust, Ozzie, and not winning. It takes time for a team to gel and there were off the field issues that were a distraction as well.

Scully in 2012
11-17-2012, 01:04 PM
if you fielded a team full of republicans the stadium would be full

And always in the right.

NYMETS2889
11-17-2012, 01:54 PM
there is nothing wrong going on here there is nothing to blame the guy paid for this team and can do with it what he pleases-i understand there are fans to the team but loria wants to make money and he doesnt have to cater to anyones desires but his own

really people get over it sucks but it really doesnt mean anything and there is nothing anyoen can do about it

GasMan
11-17-2012, 02:10 PM
That's not entirely true. There is an assumption that he will attempt to field a winning team, and to do otherwise hurts the validity of the league. There are also issues with the fact that Loria doesn't have to compete for his market since baseball enjoys an anti-trust exemption. If you have a pissed off Miami that just bought you a shiny new ballpark for you to field a minor league team, there may be people that want to use the court system to air their grievances. MLB cares very deeply about maintaining their exemption and would intervene if they thought it was threatened. I'm sure Selig is as tired of Loria as the Miami fans are and would love to see a change in ownership there.

gaughan333
11-17-2012, 02:17 PM
Didn't miami give him like 450 million plus to help build that stadium?

gotoHcarolina52
11-17-2012, 02:22 PM
Didn't read but..

Loria spent big money, but the miami fans still didn't show up, so they only have themselves to blame.

Loria won two world series by doing this before, so maybe just wait and see how everything turns out before whining over it.

lol

Loria won 1 World Series title, and it came the same year he bought the team. He did it mostly using Dave Dombrowski's players, with a few exceptions (Willis, Pierre, Pudge).

Oh, and about attendance:


After being one of the worst draws in attendance over the past several years, the Marlins are currently ranked 16th in attendance, averaging 28,019 per game, according to ESPN.com. For the season, the Marlins have already drawn 812,578 fans through 29 home games.

If the Marlins continue averaging the current attendance per game, the team will draw a little more than 2.24 million fans on the season. Looking at last year’s numbers across baseball that would put the Marlins between 15th and 16th overall for attendance.

Still, if the Marlins remain in contention through the rest of the season, the attendance numbers are likely to rise as the playoffs near through late August and September.

That article was published on June 8, 2012. At the time, the Marlins were 31-27, 3 games out of first in the NL East and 1.5 behind the second wild card. Just six weeks later, they traded Hanley Ramirez, Omar Infante, Anibal Sanchez, Gaby Sanchez, Randy Choate, and Edward Mujica. They tried moving Josh Johnson and Buehrle too, but didn't find the return they were asking for.

So much for "remaining in contention."

Oh, and even after the Guillen-Castro protests and the boycotts and the gutting of the team in mid-July, the Marlins still ended up drawing 2.22 million fans for the year. The last time the Marlins drew over 2 million fans in a year? 1997, the season they won their first title.

But it was the fans. Those damn fans just didn't show up. They deserve what they got. They deserve Jeffrey Loria. Right?

Yeah . . .

gotoHcarolina52
11-17-2012, 02:52 PM
More on attendance:


Igneo Espindola stands on a shaded sidewalk near Marlins Park holding a crudely made cardboard sign that reads $10, his asking price for a parking spot within an outfielder’s throw of the team’s new digs.

The going rate for the same spot was $30 in July, he said.

And back in April, when the Marlins’ christened their new home, it was $50.

“It started amazing,” Espindola said, staring down a mostly deserted street an hour before the start of Sunday’s game. “It was nice at the start. Then they traded all those players [in July], and it disappeared.”



After the underachieving Marlins went into a swoon in June and July, six of the 25 players on the Opening Day roster were sent packing in trades and the Marlins went into a tailspin that landed them at the bottom of the standings.

Now, some season ticket holders, such as Nancy Farrell of Cutler Bay and Mercy Garcia of Kendall, are having second thoughts.

“We enjoy everything about the ballpark,” Farrell said. “But the trading is what upset us. Now I don’t even know who’s on the field.”

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/03/3031164_p2/marlins-stadium-attendance-suffers.html

SLS80
11-17-2012, 02:57 PM
Whats with all the crying in Miami all of a sudden? Ya Loria is a douche and he did take tax payer $$ to build a new stadium BUT......no one showed up! Now, Miami is all upset that he traded away all the big dollar contracts. Don't be upset with Toronto, plus look at your Basketball court....what goes around comes around Miami! Go JAYS!!:clap:

gaughan333
11-17-2012, 02:59 PM
If you don't know who is on the field, you should probably research your team a little bit better.

masTOR_shake1
11-17-2012, 03:06 PM
This is getting tired. The tax payers of ontario payed for most of the $570 million it cost to build the skydome in the late 80's (913 million in 2012 dollars), and it was sold to rogers for $25 million. Cry me a f*cking river miami with your 2 world series in the last 15 years and nba champion heat.

I guess the mayor of Toronto should have written bud a letter when halladay was traded or when delgado wasn't resigned? The marlins, as constructed at the end of last season, weren't going anywhere anyways. If we were the yankees this wouldn't even be an issue.

SLS80
11-17-2012, 03:16 PM
This is getting tired. The tax payers of ontario payed for most of the $570 million it cost to build the skydome in the late 80's (913 million in 2012 dollars), and it was sold to rogers for $25 million. Cry me a f*cking river miami with your 2 world series in the last 15 years and nba champion heat.

I guess the mayor of Toronto should have written bud a letter when halladay was traded or when delgado wasn't resigned? The marlins, as constructed at the end of last season, weren't going anywhere anyways. If we were the yankees this wouldn't even be an issue.

I agree, we filled the Dome. And the Yankee thing is spot on!

gotoHcarolina52
11-17-2012, 03:16 PM
Jays fans, I really don't understand why some of you are so bent out of shape. Our beef is not with you. Enjoy Reyes/JJ/Buehrle/Boni/Buck. Hope it goes well.

Our beef is with Loria, Samson, and Selig.

ATL#22
11-17-2012, 03:25 PM
Didn't read but..

Loria spent big money, but the miami fans still didn't show up, so they only have themselves to blame.

Loria won two world series by doing this before, so maybe just wait and see how everything turns out before whining over it.

You probably should have read it or not have replied. They actually drew a pretty decent crowd while having a ****** season and they traded the face of the franchise (Ramirez).

JDIAZ201
11-17-2012, 03:29 PM
Who mentioned anything about the Jays? He is speaking of Loria. Very good points btw

SLS80
11-17-2012, 03:33 PM
Jays fans, I really don't understand why some of you are so bent out of shape. Our beef is not with you. Enjoy Reyes/JJ/Buehrle/Boni/Buck. Hope it goes well.

Our beef is with Loria, Samson, and Selig.

Thanks goto, I've seen other posts and articles of Miami fans being mad at Toronto fans. But, being a Raptor fan as well it was hard to swallow watching Bosh up and leave so that he could be a 3rd wheel and "be on tv more" although he is having a good year this year. BUT SELIG .....is taking his sweet ***** time making a decision and when the Sox un loaded all the big bucks to the Dodgers for even less it was approved in a day! Just BS the whole thing. I think our beef is with Selig aswell and the more we see upset Miami fans the better the chances are that BS will veto. I enjoy your posts cheers!

NYMETS2889
11-17-2012, 04:04 PM
That's not entirely true. There is an assumption that he will attempt to field a winning team, and to do otherwise hurts the validity of the league. There are also issues with the fact that Loria doesn't have to compete for his market since baseball enjoys an anti-trust exemption. If you have a pissed off Miami that just bought you a shiny new ballpark for you to field a minor league team, there may be people that want to use the court system to air their grievances. MLB cares very deeply about maintaining their exemption and would intervene if they thought it was threatened. I'm sure Selig is as tired of Loria as the Miami fans are and would love to see a change in ownership there.

entirely wrong-tax payers agreed to the stadium legal action will do nothing

and mlb "caring" about their product also has no impact they can do nothing-i must have missed them stepping in the last 20 years in pittsburgh or in kansas city or taking control away from the mets-owners run mlb not the other way around

selig works for the owners and there is nothing he can do so stop complaining

Russollini
11-17-2012, 04:10 PM
entirely wrong-tax payers agreed to the stadium legal action will do nothing

and mlb "caring" about their product also has no impact they can do nothing-i must have missed them stepping in the last 20 years in pittsburgh or in kansas city or taking control away from the mets-owners run mlb not the other way around

selig works for the owners and there is nothing he can do so stop complaining

Actually, two years ago MLB accused Loria of pocketing the revenue share and did threaten action. Now with a shiny new park and a 34 Million payroll, they will press him to do something. Other teams wanting a new park will struggle due to his bad decisions. I understand the team was not what they expected, but how many times does a team turnover the entire squad and succeed out of the gate. They should have fired Ozzie earlier on and I think they would have been better. I could see MLB forcing him to sell if he does not shape up.

Russollini
11-17-2012, 04:11 PM
Who mentioned anything about the Jays? He is speaking of Loria. Very good points btw

Thanks, I just find it odd that no one is reporting about it. I would think the history is important here.

GasMan
11-17-2012, 04:13 PM
entirely wrong-tax payers agreed to the stadium legal action will do nothing

and mlb "caring" about their product also has no impact they can do nothing-i must have missed them stepping in the last 20 years in pittsburgh or in kansas city or taking control away from the mets-owners run mlb not the other way around

selig works for the owners and there is nothing he can do so stop complaining

Frank McCourt would disagree

fingerbang
11-17-2012, 04:26 PM
They tried to increase attendance by building a new stadium, attendance was still below average. They tried to create a winning product by spending, the team still sucked.

metswon69
11-17-2012, 05:03 PM
They tried to increase attendance by building a new stadium, attendance was still below average. They tried to create a winning product by spending, the team still sucked.

It's because baseball is not a part of the culture down there.

The demographics would support that it should be but the Marlins have always been near the bottom of the league in attendance.

All they need to do is look at the Tampa Bay Rays to know baseball doesn't work in Florida. That team also has attendance issues (last in the league last year) and that's a team that has been very successful over the last 4 years.

A lot of people in Florida already have baseball affiliations with other teams.

Whether it's the Phillies, the Red Sox, the Mets, or the Yankees a lot of people who live down there don't particularly care for Florida baseball.

The Dolphins have issues with blackouts and they only play 8 games a year at home.

Why would baseball be any different?

fingerbang
11-17-2012, 05:10 PM
It's because baseball is not a part of the culture down there.

The demographics would support that it should be but the Marlins have always been near the bottom of the league in attendance.

All they need to do is look at the Tampa Bay Rays to know baseball doesn't work in Florida. That team also has attendance issues (last in the league last year) and that's a team that has been very successful over the last 4 years.

A lot of people in Florida already have baseball affiliations with other teams.

Whether it's the Phillies, the Red Sox, the Mets, or the Yankees a lot of people who live down there don't particularly care for Florida baseball.

The Dolphins have issues with blackouts and they only play 8 games a year at home.

Why would baseball be any different?

You're right.

And if they plan on following in the Rays footsteps, they need to suck for an extended period of time and really start accumulating farm players. There's no secret to the Rays success, they have a new all star player ready to come out of the farm almost every single season. They part ways with players when they start asking for money and they bring up a nice cheap talent.

What they did last offseason wasn't going to work. They're making the correct decision. The fans will understand, eventually.

SpecialFNK
11-17-2012, 05:41 PM
I was thinking of something, and I guess since this is abut the Marlins I can drop it here.
what if this could be Miami dumping salary in order to add salary from another player?
back around the ALCS there was a player struggling for the Yankees and there was talk about a possible trade out of NY going to Miami. Alex Rodriguez?
Yankees say they wont be trading ARod, and he says he doesn't want to leave. but that's all what I would expect to be said.
now the Yankees would pick up a good chunk of that salary anyway.
would Miami fans feel differently if they were able to trade for Alex Rodriguez?
I think it's a long shot and don't expect it to happen, but just throwing that out there.

NYMETS2889
11-17-2012, 09:47 PM
Actually, two years ago MLB accused Loria of pocketing the revenue share and did threaten action. Now with a shiny new park and a 34 Million payroll, they will press him to do something. Other teams wanting a new park will struggle due to his bad decisions. I understand the team was not what they expected, but how many times does a team turnover the entire squad and succeed out of the gate. They should have fired Ozzie earlier on and I think they would have been better. I could see MLB forcing him to sell if he does not shape up.

pocketing revenue sharing and trading away players are two different things


Frank McCourt would disagree

completely different situation mccort could no longer afford to pay his team this isnt the case

GasMan
11-18-2012, 02:18 PM
pocketing revenue sharing and trading away players are two different things



completely different situation mccort could no longer afford to pay his team this isnt the case

He could have paid them if Selig hadn't vetoed the TV deal

GasMan
11-18-2012, 02:20 PM
You're right.

And if they plan on following in the Rays footsteps, they need to suck for an extended period of time and really start accumulating farm players. There's no secret to the Rays success, they have a new all star player ready to come out of the farm almost every single season. They part ways with players when they start asking for money and they bring up a nice cheap talent.

What they did last offseason wasn't going to work. They're making the correct decision. The fans will understand, eventually.

That's not how the Rays got better. They got better when they got a competent owner/FO. That would be very helpful to the Marlins.

Russollini
11-18-2012, 02:24 PM
pocketing revenue sharing and trading away players are two different things



completely different situation mccort could no longer afford to pay his team this isnt the case

Selig will act in the best interest of Baseball. He can apply pressure making it very hard for them to operate and participate in their team. See the Reds of the 80s/90s, the Yankees in the early 90s and more recently the Dodgers. Loria was on Probation through last year. He is now off, and he needs to go back on immediately.

2009mvp
11-18-2012, 02:41 PM
lol

Loria won 1 World Series title, and it came the same year he bought the team. He did it mostly using Dave Dombrowski's players, with a few exceptions (Willis, Pierre, Pudge).

Oh, and about attendance:



That article was published on June 8, 2012. At the time, the Marlins were 31-27, 3 games out of first in the NL East and 1.5 behind the second wild card. Just six weeks later, they traded Hanley Ramirez, Omar Infante, Anibal Sanchez, Gaby Sanchez, Randy Choate, and Edward Mujica. They tried moving Josh Johnson and Buehrle too, but didn't find the return they were asking for.

So much for "remaining in contention."

Oh, and even after the Guillen-Castro protests and the boycotts and the gutting of the team in mid-July, the Marlins still ended up drawing 2.22 million fans for the year. The last time the Marlins drew over 2 million fans in a year? 1997, the season they won their first title.

But it was the fans. Those damn fans just didn't show up. They deserve what they got. They deserve Jeffrey Loria. Right?

Yeah . . .

I'm no expert, but being on pace for landing in the middle of the pack attendance-wise with a brand new ballpark and a $100M payroll is still pretty crappy. That article projected 2.24 million if they had remained on the pace they had set in June? The 100-loss Pirates drew 2.43 when PNC opened. The Brewers were just as bad that same season when Miller Park opened and they hit 2.8. Washington lost 102 and drew 2.32 in 2008. No one deserves Jeffrey Loria, but it's not like the fans were doing their part. There's just no reason that park should have been built in that market in the first place.

Russollini
11-18-2012, 03:18 PM
I'm no expert, but being on pace for landing in the middle of the pack attendance-wise with a brand new ballpark and a $100M payroll is still pretty crappy. That article projected 2.24 million if they had remained on the pace they had set in June? The 100-loss Pirates drew 2.43 when PNC opened. The Brewers were just as bad that same season when Miller Park opened and they hit 2.8. Washington lost 102 and drew 2.32 in 2008. No one deserves Jeffrey Loria, but it's not like the fans were doing their part. There's just no reason that park should have been built in that market in the first place.

Yes, but they also did not see there teams built and destroyed, built and destroyed, built and destroyed over and over again. The fans were looking to get behind the Marlins and ownership failed the community. In Miami, the fans want to see a winner and they will support a team they can get behind. Year after year they do the same thing, and the faces all change and the fans do not even know who they are cheering for. There has been no player in the history of the Marlins that has stayed around long enough to get behind. The closest thing there was was HanRam and he was lazy and needed a good veteran presence around him to keep him going. Win and sell the farm was the method prior to Loria, now it is spend, get a stadium and then tank. He will make money no matter what now that he has the stadium. He could tank and it would be ok. He is not concerned with putting a winner on the field, but at minimizing his investment while maximizing his gains. That is not how you run a sports team. He stole the money from Miami and now he is laughing all the way to the bank. The Heat and Dolphins had/have similar issues with fans. They are competitive then people watch, if not no one cares. Baseball should be huge down there.

When in Montreal he cut all TV/Radio broadcasts in English because he wanted them to pay him more. When they refused he told them go to hell. He could careless about the fans that wanted to watch or listen to the games. He is simply a bad owner and should have never been given the opportunity to take over the Florida Team.

fingerbang
11-18-2012, 04:56 PM
That's not how the Rays got better. They got better when they got a competent owner/FO. That would be very helpful to the Marlins.

Let me ask you a question, if they hadn't traded all those players, would the Marlins have been good next season>

GasMan
11-18-2012, 05:30 PM
Who knows, probably not but they would have been better than they are gonna be. They may have also maintained some respect among the players that are going to be the FA they may want to sign in the future. They would have also maintained some respect among the fans that they are going to need to come see their games if they hope to be financially successful in the future. This is mostly a problem because it is a pattern not because they dismantled a winner.

metswon69
11-18-2012, 06:14 PM
That's not how the Rays got better. They got better when they got a competent owner/FO. That would be very helpful to the Marlins.

It was a combination of both, the Rays were certainly helped by years of losing and accumulating higher end draft picks.

It was also about dealing talent that was getting too expensive, or when they let them go in FA having received compensation picks for their better talent as well.

They've done an excellent job of scouting too.

lol, please
11-18-2012, 10:50 PM
Being a baseball fan all my life, and watching all the craziness in Miami right now, I am surprised that no body has explored Loria's history. He was the owner of the Expos from 1999 until they moved towards contraction in 2002. He played the same exact games there. He overpaid for non stars, pushed for a stadium, infuriated the fan base (getting rid of all English broadcasts for instance) and was negotiating to buy the Marlins prior to the contractin of the Expos. In 2001, John Henry sold him the Marlins then bought the Red Sox. When Loria left he took the entire managing staff and all the computer/video systems. He left the team with nothing in the Front Office. MLB was forced to buy the Expos. The MLB run Expos later moved to DC as the Nationals when contraction failed. Loria was an awful owner then and an even worse owner now. Miami is stuck with him though thanks to Selig and some bad business decisions by MLB. They should have put a stop to this before it happened. In 3 years as an owner of the Expos he destroyed baseball there. Fans per game, about 6k. Sound familiar?

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/mtlexpos/expos.html

Blaming the MLB for the problems of the franchise are we?

fishfan79
11-19-2012, 10:53 PM
Didn't read but..

Loria spent big money, but the miami fans still didn't show up, so they only have themselves to blame.

Loria won two world series by doing this before, so maybe just wait and see how everything turns out before whining over it.

Incorrect on all areas

He spent his money poorly and lost horribly and started to sell off major pieces during the season so the fans stopped going. That was inbetween pissing off half of the population of the county by his manager.

Loria has won 1 world championship and that was with players already acquired by Detriot's GM. Really All he has done is destroy Baseball in South florida. Taken credit for the GM of Detriot's built team and trade off Miguel Cabrera for Peanuts.

Loria is the worst owner in professional sports by far.