PDA

View Full Version : Now in hindsight -- Who won the Carmelo Anthony trade? Nuggets or Knicks



Pages : [1] 2 3

JordansBulls
11-16-2012, 01:33 PM
Now in hindsight -- Who won the Carmelo Anthony trade? Nuggets or Knicks


Knicks are off to their 2nd best franchise start, with Camelo looking like an MVP Record: 6-0

Nuggets even with Igoudala and McGee are struggling to stay above 50% Record: 4-5

Chronz
11-16-2012, 01:35 PM
Whats the lifetime record on those teams since the trade BTW?

Baller1
11-16-2012, 01:36 PM
Nuggets. One hot start for New York doesn't change that.

GunFactor187
11-16-2012, 01:37 PM
Short-term: Knicks
Long-term: Nuggets

LongIslandIcedZ
11-16-2012, 01:38 PM
Both teams are better than they were.

KnickaBocka.44
11-16-2012, 01:40 PM
Knicks definitely benefitted more from the trade and it's not even close.

waveycrockett
11-16-2012, 01:42 PM
Knicks are 6-0 so they won it.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 01:43 PM
I am way too lazy to look it up, but what are both teams records since the trade?

nickdymez
11-16-2012, 01:44 PM
Buckle up ladies and gentleman, its time for the barrage of Melo hate that we are used to here on PSD..........

Mr. Koobs
11-16-2012, 01:44 PM
The Knicks.

And that is coming from someone that is a huge Danilo Gallinari and Wilson Chandler fan...and the Nuggets are my second favorite team.

In my opinion, the team trading a type A player (and, Yes, I think Carmelo is a type A) never makes out as good as the team trading four type C's.

The cream rises to the top.

JordansBulls
11-16-2012, 01:45 PM
Whats the lifetime record on those teams since the trade BTW?

Games Melo has played on the Knicks, they are 49-39

Games the Nuggets have played since Melo trade the Nuggets are 56-40

Chronz
11-16-2012, 01:46 PM
I think both teams got what they wanted, whoever won only won slightly

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 01:46 PM
Games Melo has played on the Knicks, they are 49-39

Games the Nuggets have played since Melo trade the Nuggets are 56-40

Denver much better, in a tougher conference, with more flexibility financially. They still won the trade as of now.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 01:47 PM
I think both teams got what they wanted, whoever won only won slightly

With a trade for a superstar and that many moving pieces, we probably can't pick a winner overall for a few more years. Need to see what NY does with Melo there, and what Denver does with all the moving parts it assumed in that trade. But as of now, Denver is still in front, win wise imho.

JiffyMix88
11-16-2012, 01:48 PM
seriously some people should be banned from making threads

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 01:48 PM
Knicks easily, even forgetting this run.

We got Melo AND Billups for Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov, and Felton.


Look at it this way we traded to inferior players at the SF position for one significantly superior player. Then Felton and Mozgov for Billups. Easy win.


If we are looking at things now. Even more easily the Knicks.

Mozgov is worth nothing, complete trash. Wilson has completely fallen off, ranging from a DNP-15 mpg player. Gallo is having his worst season every as a pro, and in 4 seasons has shown that his peak is a 15 and 5 player.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 01:48 PM
Well the Knicks are not going to win a title as is. The Nuggets have way more assets to land some help for Iggy and Chandler.

Hoopsadvocate
11-16-2012, 01:49 PM
Knicks definitely benefitted more from the trade and it's not even close.

Lets see nuggets have way overall better record since the trade the Knicks have one a total of 1 playoff game since then. Yep the Knicks sure seem to have benefited more from the trade.

nickdymez
11-16-2012, 01:50 PM
seriously some people should be banned from making threads

You should be banned for clicking on threads you dont like just to tell us that you dont like them.....

KnickaBocka.44
11-16-2012, 01:51 PM
I believe the records since the trade (not including playoffs) are:

Nuggets: 60-40

Knicks: 56-44

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 01:51 PM
Denver much better, in a tougher conference, with more flexibility financially. They still won the trade as of now.

I don't think WIN-LOSS record is by any means an indication of who won the trade.

1) DEN was already a MUCH better team than NY when the trade was made, so its only logical that they would have a better record right after the trade. NY needed a season to replenish their roster and they did so.

2) Young guys don't stay cheap forever, DEN is capped out now after giving Chandler, Gallo & Lawson extensions. The trio of Gallo, Chandler & Mozzy combine to make $19m now, Melo's salary. I guarantee you DEN would trade that $19m trio for Melo in a heartbeat.

It was still a good trade for both teams then and now. Although TBH, Gallo & Mozzy haven't really developed much if at all like I thought they would. Gallo's shooting 37% since arriving in DEN. And CHandler has completely fallen off the face of the earth.

Keep in mind DEN got Andre Miller indirectly via that trade, and NY was able to get Tyson indirectly and Lin although he left.

THE GIPPER
11-16-2012, 01:53 PM
Its Denver. But I dont really expect Denver's record to be very impressive until later in the season. Obviously theres been some struggles and starting the year with 17 of their first 23 on the road doesnt help.

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 01:55 PM
I don't think WIN-LOSS record is by any means an indication of who won the trade.

1) DEN was already a MUCH better team than NY when the trade was made, so its only logical that they would have a better record right after the trade. NY needed a season to replenish their roster and they did so.

2) Young guys don't stay cheap forever, DEN is capped out now after giving Chandler, Gallo & Lawson extensions. The trio of Gallo, Chandler & Mozzy combine to make $19m now.

It was still a good trade for both teams then and now. Although TBH, Gallo & Mozzy haven't really developed much if at all like I thought they would. Gallo's shooting 37% since arriving in DEN. And CHandler has completely fallen off the face of the earth.

Keep in mind DEN got Andre Miller indirectly via that trade, and NY was able to get Tyson indirectly and Lin although he left.



Gallo has peaked, he'll get you 15 points and 5 boards a game at best and that's it.


Mozgov isn't even played anymore. Chandler plays >15 mpg and was DNP'd by the coach last game.


It's interesting no one who says the Nuggets won actually mentions the individual players involved.

NYYCowboys
11-16-2012, 02:00 PM
I still it's still too early to judge. Obviously this season Melo has been very good, and Gallinari has been awful, but its a small sample size. The one caveat to the deal that was they got Billups who they amnestied to get Tyson Chandler, who is the MVP of this team. On the other-hand though if they declined his option in the first place they wouldn't have needed to amnesty him, signed Chandler, and could amnesty Amare......

effen5
11-16-2012, 02:02 PM
Denver.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 02:03 PM
I still it's still too early to judge. Obviously this season Melo has been very good, and Gallinari has been awful, but its a small sample size. The one caveat to the deal that was they got Billups who they amnestied to get Tyson Chandler, who is the MVP of this team. On the other-hand though if they declined his option in the first place they wouldn't have needed to amnesty him, signed Chandler, and could amnesty Amare......

Alot of people say that but its not accurate. Billups had a buyout that would have counted against the cap, so if NY declined the option they could only have offered Chandler about 4 years $39m. Considering he ended up signing for 4/54 and GSW were even offering more, I doubt he would have taken such a huge paycut.

Mr_Jones
11-16-2012, 02:04 PM
Nuggets.

And it's like since the Knicks are 6-0, they totally forget about how they've struggled in the past couple years.

The Nuggets have really excelled. So.. LOL at the Knick fan that said KNICKS, AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. ********.

Nuggets won the trade.

cbs9889
11-16-2012, 02:04 PM
well DEN right now they wouldn't have won a title with him and they don't have to pay him anymore and the knicks haven't won yet so they are paying him a lot of money to just bring in fans

Mell413
11-16-2012, 02:07 PM
I think both teams got what they wanted. I think the Knicks got closer to a title so id give them the edge

KnickaBocka.44
11-16-2012, 02:10 PM
Nuggets.

And it's like since the Knicks are 6-0, they totally forget about how they've struggled in the past couple years.

The Nuggets have really excelled. So.. LOL at the Knick fan that said KNICKS, AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. ********.

Nuggets won the trade.

LOL at you bro. Good thing you're not a GM. If you have the chance to acquire a player like Melo for role players you do it every time.

The Nuggets only use one player from that trade in their regular rotation (Gallo) and the Knicks ended up getting Felton back and he excels in NY. Billups turned into Chandler, the DPOY, and without the trade J.R. wouldn't have landed in NY either.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:13 PM
Am I the only one who think Melo is severely overrated?

Hitman21
11-16-2012, 02:13 PM
who has a better shot at winning a title?

Knicks

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:14 PM
who has a better shot at winning a title?

Knicks

0.1% over 0%

Knicks play in the East. If they were in the West their overall record would be way worse leading up till now. Even then they cannot take the Heat or a healthy Bulls in a playoff series.

THE MTL
11-16-2012, 02:19 PM
Have you seen how BAD Gallinari has been playing this season. He is sucking the life out of fantasy team. His FG%, 3pt%, and even FT% are HORRIBLE!

And Wilson Chandler fell off, but I think its more because of injuries.

ks32
11-16-2012, 02:20 PM
denver isnt beating OKC, LAL, or SAS with the team they have in a 7 game series. Knicks have shown they can play with anybody in the league, especially this year. Gallo hasn't improved at all, mozgov doesn't even play, chandler barely plays either. So because Denver has a better regular season team the last two years they won the trade? oh okay. This year the Knicks finally have a filled out team bench and all. Denver is going to be the Atlanta of the West.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 02:23 PM
Am I the only one who think Melo is severely overrated?

Aren't you the guy that says he's happy with Lin and that Lin is playing like you wanted and expected despite averaging 10pp 6apg and shooting 35%?

But yea, Melo is the "severely overrated" one. :rolleyes:

FutureGM
11-16-2012, 02:25 PM
This conveniently comes up after Melo and the Knicks start playing solid...

I'd say Nuggets slightly right now but if the Knicks have an outrageous season then I'll change my answer.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:26 PM
Aren't you the guy that says he's happy with Lin and that Lin is playing like you wanted and expected despite averaging 10pp 6apg and shooting 35%?

But yea, Melo is the "severely overrated" one. :rolleyes:

Well A) Lin is actually you know ... playing defense.
B) It's what 9 games into the season while half th team got shuffled and NO ONE in their lineup started last season. But yeah **** chemistry right?

KnickaBocka.44
11-16-2012, 02:28 PM
Well A) Lin is actually you know ... playing defense.
B) It's what 9 games into the season while half th team got shuffled and NO ONE in their lineup started last season. But yeah **** chemistry right?

I hope you aren't implying that Carmelo or the Knicks aren't. If you are, then you're not even qualified to be involved in this conversation.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 02:29 PM
Am I the only one who think Melo is severely overrated?

Like I always say, Melo goes through hot stretches where he looks like a top 3 player in the league, and then he follows them up with stretches where he doesn't play defense, chucks away, and seems not to care. Its been the identity he has built over his career.

Question is, is Melo simply starting the season on a hot streak, only to fall into his usual complacency in a few weeks, or has he finally grown up? You or anyone can predict away, and give any reason you want, but until he shows that he is going to break his trend that has been built with a mountain of evidence, nobody knows.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 02:34 PM
Knicks were able to replenish their role players very quickly.

Felton, Novak, JR, Sheed, Kidd, Camby, Brewer...etc... all those guys came and came cheap.

Its alot harder to find a superstar player, or even an all star level player.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:35 PM
I hope you aren't implying that Carmelo or the Knicks aren't. If you are, then you're not even qualified to be involved in this conversation.

Well Lin has a better Drtg and 3.5x the steals :/ and almost the same amount of blocks :laugh:

Sure they beat the Heat and the Spurs. The Heat played an aweful game Wade only took 10 shots and Bosh shot under 30%. You can't expect that every time... in a playoff series the current Knicks do not stand a chance.

ks32
11-16-2012, 02:38 PM
Well Lin has a better Drtg and 3.5x the steals :/ and almost the same amount of blocks :laugh:

Sure they beat the Heat and the Spurs. The Heat played an aweful game Wade only took 10 shots and Bosh shot under 30%. You can't expect that every time... in a playoff series the current Knicks do not stand a chance.

Can I have next week powerball numbers too? So how do you calculate the nuggets stand a chance against OKC, LAL, or SAS? How does this trade make them better than the Knicks right now? I'm jw

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 02:39 PM
Well A) Lin is actually you know ... playing defense.
B) It's what 9 games into the season while half th team got shuffled and NO ONE in their lineup started last season. But yeah **** chemistry right?

Lin's defense hasn't been great, I've watched almost every HOU game.

Vasquez lit him up the other day. Lin gambles alot and has quick hands so he gets alot of steals (2.5spg), but overall his man to man defense isn't good, and he has trouble staying in front of his man.

JohnStarks94
11-16-2012, 02:40 PM
:facepalm:

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:40 PM
Lin's defense hasn't been great, I've watched almost every HOU game.

Vasquez lit him up the other day. Lin gambles alot and has quick hands so he gets alot of steals (2.5spg), but overall his man to man defense isn't good, and he has trouble staying in front of his man.

NINETY NINE DEFENSIVE RATING, Lin is one of the better defensive point guards in the league.

NYKNYGNYY
11-16-2012, 02:40 PM
They got felton ..who played like **** for them now he's back in ny playing great
Gallo never lived up to hype
Mozgof Idk i havnt heard his name
And Wilson chandler is great imo

I think knicks even tho we waisted our amnesty on billups ...not only did we get melo but now tyson came here cus of melo and I'm sure Jr coming here had something to do with it ..

Fact is if you have a star more stars and great role players are to follow ....

bringinwood
11-16-2012, 02:40 PM
Thats why we beat the #1 ranked Spurs. Stop your hating. But then I realize that you're a Rockets fan, so your opinion doesnt matter anyway.

Im glad my boy Lin robbed you guys of 25 million

are you really bragging about an early season victory against an opponent thats matches up well for you guys ???

Wow, NY is desperate for something to hold onto...

NY isn't a title contender and Melo has shown himself to be lazy and selfish throughout his career...

Advantage Denver

Beltrans Mole
11-16-2012, 02:40 PM
Both teams got what they wanted and both teams are very competitive. Why does there always have to be a clear-cut winner? I'd say it's basically an even trade. The Knicks do have Melo and you win with stars in this league, so if anyone has the edge in the trade it's the Knicks.

JiffyMix88
11-16-2012, 02:41 PM
You should be banned for clicking on threads you dont like just to tell us that you dont like them.....

for one its not that i dont like it its the fact that there is already a bunch of threads about the knicks and y would you bring this up 6 games in the year?

For my opinion any team without Carmelo just got better so Denver still wins

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:41 PM
I admit Melo is playing the best defense of his career. But it is still average - slightly above average at best.

Mr. Koobs
11-16-2012, 02:42 PM
Well Lin has a better Drtg and 3.5x the steals :/ and almost the same amount of blocks :laugh:

Sure they beat the Heat and the Spurs. The Heat played an aweful game Wade only took 10 shots and Bosh shot under 30%. You can't expect that every time... in a playoff series the current Knicks do not stand a chance.

I don't care how many games the Knicks win.

I don't care how many good teams they beat.

*sticks my fingers in ears*

La La La...

You can't make me respect them.

Isiah Thomas...

No D 'Antoni...

Malik Rose...

Eddy Curry...

I don't care what you say, the Knicks suck. And they always will.

La La La...

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 02:43 PM
NINETY NINE DEFENSIVE RATING, Lin is one of the better defensive point guards in the league.

meh, defensive rating isn't a good number to look at. Elite defensive teams inflate individuals defensive ratings. I have only watched Lin in around 3 games, and he is playing like I expected him to, though it would be nice to see his long 2 percentage get back to above average.

Looking at Melo's numbers, he isn't playing any better offensively at all this year, and his assist percentage is right back to normal. Defensively, he has been better however, but that can be said of the system working in NY currently.

Again, an NBA season is full of peaks and valley's for both teams. If you NY fans don't think a valley is in your future, be prepared for disappointment.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 02:44 PM
NINETY NINE DEFENSIVE RATING, Lin is one of the better defensive point guards in the league.

So its not a small sample size only when it helps your argument? Cool...gotcha.:rolleyes:

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:44 PM
meh, defensive rating isn't a good number to look at. Elite defensive teams inflate individuals defensive ratings. I have only watched Lin in around 3 games, and he is playing like I expected him to, though it would be nice to see his long 2 percentage get back to above average.

Looking at Melo's numbers, he isn't playing any better offensively at all this year, and his assist percentage is right back to normal. Defensively, he has been better however, but that can be said of the system working in NY currently.

Again, an NBA season is full of peaks and valley's for both teams. If you NY fans don't think a valley is in your future, be prepared for disappointment.

The Rockets are an elite defensive team?

Drtg proves the whole " he gambles for steals and gets burned " argument invalid.

JohnStarks94
11-16-2012, 02:45 PM
The two best players in that trade are melo and felton and we have both.. Seriously now stop.. We beat mia no love, beat the same team twice in a row no love.. U would think after takin out spurs we would get some.. Now thats called envy.. Stop the hate, even chuck gave us props.. I sware if i could be in the room with some of these knick haters.. Tomahawk to the face :facepalm:

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:45 PM
So its not a small sample size only when it helps your argument? Cool...gotcha.:rolleyes:

Oh but it is a fine sample size to say the contract is bad and he is bad :laugh:.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 02:46 PM
Oh but it is a fine sample size to say the contract is bad and he is bad :laugh:.

um i said that? :confused:

Ive always said Lin will be solid, but HOU had better options right in house than paying $8.3m for Lin.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 02:46 PM
The Rockets are an elite defensive team?

Drtg proves the whole " he gambles for steals and gets burned " argument invalid.

And please explain why the Rox give up 3.2 points per 100 possession more when he is on the floor. My point is, Defensive rating has too many variables outside an individuals contributions to be taken above many other metrics.

JohnStarks94
11-16-2012, 02:48 PM
Besides ray i dont even remember the players we gave up for melo... I forget and the played for ny..!

SluggeR
11-16-2012, 02:48 PM
Are the Nuggets better now without Melo and are the Knicks better now without the pieces they traded for Melo?

JohnStarks94
11-16-2012, 02:48 PM
:facepalm::facepalm:

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:49 PM
And please explain why the Rox give up 3.2 points per 100 possession more when he is on the floor. My point is, Defensive rating has too many variables outside an individuals contributions to be taken above many other metrics.

It's 100x more objective than " the eye test" most PSDers claim to give players.

shep33
11-16-2012, 02:51 PM
Nuggets still. We seem to be forgetting that Tyson Chandler, Ronnie Brewer, JR Smith, Jason Kidd, Iman Shumpert, Rasheed Wallace, Marcus Camby, Kurt Thomas, Pablo Prigioni, Steve Novak, and others had nothing to do with that deal.

Knicks are a top team in the league, but they also got a new coach and a heck of a lot more talent via free agency.

lvlheaded
11-16-2012, 02:51 PM
This trade isnt really ready to be judged.

The regular season records since the trade would suggest that the Nuggets won. However, as a direct result of the trade, the Knicks were able to add Tyson (by using Billups: Amnesty) , Novak (who would have had no where to play with Gallo and Chandler), and JR (who most likely goes to LAC had the Knicks not had Melo) the following offseason, all crucial rotation players. The Nuggets used Felton to acquire Rudy, Hamilton, and Andre Miller, Rudy is obviously back in Spain and and Hamilton has been extremely disappointing. As a result of that trade, Felton had a down year in Portland which opened the door for the Knicks to get him back, where he is once again flourishing, as well as bring back Kurt Thomas.

So if you look at the ripple effects of this trade it ends up with a lot more moving parts than first advertised.

Knicks lose: Gallo, Chandler, Mosgov, Anthony Randolph, Eddy Curry, 2 first round picks

Knicks Get: Melo, Tyson, JR, Novak, Kurt Thomas

Nuggets lose: Melo

Nuggets get: Gallo, Chandler, Mosgov, Jordan Hamilton, Andre Miller, 2 1st round picks

Obviously both teams made other moves as a result of this trade, but I tried to keep it to acquisitions that directly dealt with players used in this trade. From a pure talent standpoint, the Knicks get the edge, if for no other reason than they got the best player in the trade.

However, this trade will not be able to be judge for quite a while as neither team has really done anything significant as far as playoff progress, so I voted for the trade being even as of now

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 02:52 PM
It's 100x more objective than " the eye test" most PSDers claim to give players.

Sorry, but using a very flawed stat after 8 games to try to say Lin is one of the best defensive PG's in the entire league, while in the same sentence saying 8 games is too small a sample size is a major fail.

When Vasquez, who came into the game averaging 10ppg on 33% shooting, comes in and puts up 24, 9 & 5 on 8-15, thats very telling. Thats no "eye test". Brandon Jennings leads the league in steals, and has a 96 DRTG, are you going to suggest he's one of the best defensive PG's in the NBA?

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 02:53 PM
It's 100x more objective than " the eye test" most PSDers claim to give players.

hahaha, well I won't argue with you there.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:54 PM
Sorry, but using a very flawed stat after 8 games to try to say Lin is one of the best defensive PG's in the entire league, while in the same sentence saying 8 games is too small a sample size is a major fail.

When Vasquez, who came into the game averaging 10ppg on 33% shooting, comes in and puts up 24, 9 & 5 on 8-15, thats very telling.

Jrue Holiday is a career 12.1 PPG put up 27 on the Knicks. ZOMG they r da werst.

ChongInc.
11-16-2012, 02:54 PM
ales anthoupolis

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:55 PM
Sorry, but using a very flawed stat after 8 games to try to say Lin is one of the best defensive PG's in the entire league, while in the same sentence saying 8 games is too small a sample size is a major fail.

When Vasquez, who came into the game averaging 10ppg on 33% shooting, comes in and puts up 24, 9 & 5 on 8-15, thats very telling. Thats no "eye test". Brandon Jennings leads the league in steals, and has a 96 DRTG, are you going to suggest he's one of the best defensive PG's in the NBA?

That would mean he is the best so far this season....

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 02:56 PM
Sorry, but using a very flawed stat after 8 games to try to say Lin is one of the best defensive PG's in the entire league, while in the same sentence saying 8 games is too small a sample size is a major fail.

When Vasquez, who came into the game averaging 10ppg on 33% shooting, comes in and puts up 24, 9 & 5 on 8-15, thats very telling. Thats no "eye test". Brandon Jennings leads the league in steals, and has a 96 DRTG, are you going to suggest he's one of the best defensive PG's in the NBA?

this is the point I am trying to make alexander. Using a stat that is only barely looked at by statistics people to say a player is "elite" at something is not going to work. Especially with an 8 game sample size. Otherwise Jimmer Freddette and Kyle Lowry are as efficient as LeBron.

Too much haste from fan bases this season. I understand NY is a place where overreactions are ten-fold, but everyone needs to chill the **** out and let the season get some games under its belt before we declare a finals matchup, MIP, MVP, and all the other garbage I have been reading on this site. Hell, a few of the best players in the league haven't even played yet, lets chill.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 02:58 PM
this is the point I am trying to make alexander. Using a stat that is only barely looked at by statistics people to say a player is "elite" at something is not going to work. Especially with an 8 game sample size. Otherwise Jimmer Freddette and Kyle Lowry are as efficient as LeBron.

Too much haste from fan bases this season. I understand NY is a place where overreactions are ten-fold, but everyone needs to chill the **** out and let the season get some games under its belt before we declare a finals matchup, MIP, MVP, and all the other garbage I have been reading on this site. Hell, a few of the best players in the league haven't even played yet, lets chill.

This is my point essentially. New York beat Miami in ONE game on OPENING NIGHT while the Heat played poorly. So this makes them a contender? The playoffs are different than opening night guys.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 02:59 PM
That would mean he is the best so far this season....

Dude, I know you are swarming in Knicks fans here, so I don't want to get on you for this, but using defensive rating alone to rate a player is a complete fail man.

I will leave you at it, but its been proven over and over again that the Drtg stat is far from the best way to judge a player, and in fact, is a flawed way.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 03:00 PM
This is my point essentially. New York beat Miami in ONE game on OPENING NIGHT while the Heat played poorly. So this makes them a contender? The playoffs are different than opening night guys.

Yep. And as I said, every team has peaks and valley's. NY happened to start the season off on a peak. A valley is coming eventually. It always does.

You are also talking about a team that hasn't had any success, so they come out on all cylinders. Contenders and teams who are routinely there understand a championship, or seed, is not won in November.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 03:00 PM
This is my point essentially. New York beat Miami in ONE game on OPENING NIGHT while the Heat played poorly. So this makes them a contender? The playoffs are different than opening night guys.

Your arguments are getting sillier and sillier, the DMF of Houston?

People are saying NY is a contender because of 1 game? Or are they saying that after 6 games where NY is the 2nd best scoring team, best defensive team, and has a PPG differential of a staggering 13.6+.

And its not really just 6 games, NY is now 24-6 with a +12ppg under Woody, thats pretty dominant.

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 03:01 PM
NINETY NINE DEFENSIVE RATING, Lin is one of the better defensive point guards in the league.

You realize defensive ratings is the most misleading stat in basketball. This is very well known. Carlos Boozer, for instance, had a Defensive rating of 95 last year, best among PFs, KG had a 94, Duncan had a 99, Chandler had a 100. Literally no one uses that stat. The fact that you are using that to try and prove Lin is a good defender shows your lack of basketball knowledge.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:02 PM
You realize defensive ratings is the most misleading stat in basketball. This is very well known. Carlos Boozer, for instance, had a Defensive rating of 95 last year, best among PFs, KG had a 94, Duncan had a 99, Chandler had a 100. Literally no one uses that stat. The fact that you are using that to try and prove Lin is a good defender shows your lack of basketball knowledge.

Considering he is also 3rd in steals how could you say he is a bad defender. Please enlighten me.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:06 PM
It's funny that I am getting jumped for saying Lin is one of the better defensive point guards in the league and people are acting like I said he is the best. Better yet I at least have some basis of an argument when no one has given any proof other than the " eye test " and Vasquez had a good game vs them.

But hey the Knicks beat philly minus their best player twice lets give them their rings now.

Beltrans Mole
11-16-2012, 03:08 PM
It's funny that I am getting jumped for saying Lin is one of the better defensive point guards in the league and people are acting like I said he is the best. Better yet I at least have some basis of an argument when no one has given any proof other than the " eye test " and Vasquez had a good game vs them.

But hey the Knicks beat philly minus their best player twice lets give them their rings now.

Please...if Lin was still on the Knicks you'd be talking about how overrated and overpaid he is. Gimme a break and stop trolling the Knicks. They are off to a historic start in franchise history and you are trying to **** on a parade.

JEDean89
11-16-2012, 03:08 PM
i really don't want to hear from people who only watch the knicks, who only read about the knicks and who only post on the knicks forum that the knicks are better since the trade. Now I am from NY and live in Denv and the knicks and nuggets are my 2 teams. I love them both equally. Before the trade you had a bunch of roll players and Stat in NY and a bunch of Overpayed stars in Denv. Now you all should no that JR was a total **** up in Denv. He killed his best friend in a car accident which I think totally ruined the early part of his career. He would jack up 35 foot shots with 15 seconds left on the shot clock. Melo too wouldn't play the way GK wanted him too. Melo wouldn't work out or stay conditioned properly either but he played well his way and the nuggs won, but Melo only got them out of the 1st round once. Then the trade happened and all of a sudden all of my favorite players were on the nuggs. Chandler, Gallo and Felton were hardworking guys that were all underpayed at the time of the trade. The Nuggets gave the Knicks the one player that was prevented GK to play the full blown uptempo way he wanted and the Knicks got a player that was just a 2 inch smaller version of Amare. Then at years end things got really interesting. It became clear that the Knicks were going tot start getting players at discounts to surround Melo and Amare. We had no backcourt, but Baron came, JR came and some others. The nuggets also made a brilliant trade, Andre Miller + Jordan Hamilton for Felton. Suddenly the Nuggets had gotten 6 players off the trade. The next year, this last offseason, the Knicks core were able to land a group of players that never would have come here if it hadn't been for Melo playing in NY. Melo is much more valuable in NY than in Denv because FA's will want to play with him more. In Denv, Masai Ujiri is using his confidence of getting a great return from the Knicks to stay in the playoffs, continued his streak of brilliant trades. Trading overpayed Nene to the Wiz for McGee and a trade execption and Afflalo and Harrington + a conditional 1st rounder to the Magic for Iggy.

My point here is that neither team lost this trade, so it is impossible for either team to have won. The nuggs got hard working, less ego centric players that fit GK. They are the 3rd youngest team in the league, and probably the most athletic. The Knicks got more experienced players who are harder in the locker room, but a better fit in NY. Woody was able to get the most out of JR and Melo, something GK could not. So both teams recieved more than they gave away. Both teams are considered top 5 deepest teams in the league. The Knicks became a playoff team again the Nuggets are knocking on being a top 4 seed in the Western Conference. The losers of this trade are the teams like Portland, Dallas and whichever team would have signed JR. Oh, the Heat lost two because it made them lose out on Camby. It was an ugly trade that cost both teams a season, but in less than 2 years has truly proven to improve both teams by a huge margin.

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 03:10 PM
Considering he is also 3rd in steals how could you say he is a bad defender. Please enlighten me.

Steals means he steals the ball occasionally (2.5 time per game). It literally says nothing about his overall defense.

You can be the worst PG defender in the league and get 1-2 spg.


Amare is a good shot blocker, doesn't make him a good or even decent defender.


I've watched Lin play and he is a below average defender. Not horrendous, not Steve Nash, but definitely not good.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:10 PM
Please...if Lin was still on the Knicks you'd be talking about how overrated and overpaid he is. Gimme a break and stop trolling the Knicks. They are off to a historic start in franchise history and you are trying to **** on a parade.

No I am being realistic. While Linsanity was beyond overblown he has always been a solid player. He i not a star nor should he but when playing with in the flow of the offense he is exactly that a solid player.

The Knicks have a had a good start but it is 6 games and they have faced 2 quality teams and one of those teams played very poorly. Not what you would get from them in a 7 game series.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 03:11 PM
It's funny that I am getting jumped for saying Lin is one of the better defensive point guards in the league and people are acting like I said he is the best. Better yet I at least have some basis of an argument when no one has given any proof other than the " eye test " and Vasquez had a good game vs them.

But hey the Knicks beat philly minus their best player twice lets give them their rings now.

Well, Lin needs a much larger sample size. You are asking the same of NY, so many are asking the same of Lin. Though his steal, block, and defensive rebound rate were all very good last season, and he shows the ability to be a ball hawking PG at times, I will give him that.

So many arguments over such a small sample size on this site.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:12 PM
Steals means he steals the ball occasionally (2.5 time per game). It literally says nothing about his overall defense.

You can be the worst PG defender in the league and get 1-2 spg.


Amare is a good shot blocker, doesn't make him a good or even decent defender.

Yet you still have no evidence Lin is not a good defender. Dtg while flawed is still some sort of basis to build an argument off of. Compared to he may or may not be a good defender based on his steal numbers....

b@llhog24
11-16-2012, 03:13 PM
Drtg isn't a good stat to gauge an individual's defensive worth. Especially amoung PGs. Btw Brandon Jennings is a plus defender.

smood999
11-16-2012, 03:13 PM
The Knicks won and they've always won from the beginning IMO...simply because...the Knicks got a lot better...the Nuggets, although they were still good, were slightly worse...the Nuggets may have the slightly better record since the trade but they were slightly worse since...

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:13 PM
Well, Lin needs a much larger sample size. You are asking the same of NY, so many are asking the same of Lin. Though his steal, block, and defensive rebound rate were all very good last season, and he shows the ability to be a ball hawking PG at times, I will give him that.

So many arguments over such a small sample size on this site.

This has been my point the WHOLE TIME.

People are writing off Lin after 9 ****ing games, yet saying the Knicks are contenders after 6.....

Neither is set in stone, how is no one picking up on this.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 03:14 PM
No I am being realistic. While Linsanity was beyond overblown he has always been a solid player. He i not a star nor should he but when playing with in the flow of the offense he is exactly that a solid player.

The Knicks have a had a good start but it is 6 games and they have faced 2 quality teams and one of those teams played very poorly. Not what you would get from them in a 7 game series.

I don't think anyone is saying Lin is a horrible defender, he's solid, probably about an average defender.

But you saying he's "one of the best defensive PG's in the league" based off 1 stat is a little ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as you saying Jennings has been the best defensive PG thus far based off 2 stats, when you probably haven't even watched 1 Bucks game.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 03:15 PM
This has been my point the WHOLE TIME.

People are writing off Lin after 9 ****ing games, yet saying the Knicks are contenders after 6.....

Neither is set in stone, how is no one picking up on this.

Because you are dealing with a fan base whose media has driven them to be the biggest knee jerk reactors in the entire sports world. Sorry NY fans, I love the passion you guys have for your teams, but it also drives you to flip the switch over every little thing. One day Melo is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The next, "trade him for anything, that ****ing bum!".

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:16 PM
I don't think anyone is saying Lin is a horrible defender, he's solid, probably about an average defender.

But you saying he's "one of the best defensive PG's in the league" based off 1 stat is a little ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as you saying Jennings has been the best defensive PG thus far based off 2 stats, when you probably haven't even watched 1 Bucks game.

Please tell me where I said best ... I'll wait.

I said BETTER as in ABOVE AVERAGE.

smood999
11-16-2012, 03:16 PM
The Knicks have underachieved and dissapointed since the trade...but it gets overlooked that before that season the Knicks struggled to win 30 games every yr...while the Nuggets were winning 50 games..that's how I've always judged it...that and the Nuggets will always be stuck looking for another go-to player but not bad enough (not bad at all) to draft one

kyubi256
11-16-2012, 03:17 PM
They both won. Knicks got a franchise player, Nuggets got a great support cast and draft picks to rebuild

KnickFanSince91
11-16-2012, 03:17 PM
If somebody asked you today, would you trade Carmelo, Felton + filler for Wilson Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov, Billups and a couple late 1st round picks?

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 03:18 PM
Yet you still have no evidence Lin is not a good defender. Dtg while flawed is still some sort of basis to build an argument off of. Compared to he may or may not be a good defender based on his steal numbers....


It literally isn't. It is no basis to build an argument of.

b@llhog24
11-16-2012, 03:19 PM
It literally isn't. It is no basis to build an argument of.

At this point, +1.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:19 PM
It literally isn't. It is no basis to build an argument of.

You still have yet to bring up any valid point to say he isn't. Attacking someone else's argument instead of building your own is proof you have none.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 03:20 PM
Please tell me where I said best ... I'll wait.

I said BETTER as in ABOVE AVERAGE.


NINETY NINE DEFENSIVE RATING, Lin is one of the better defensive point guards in the league.

Saying someone is "one of the better of anything in the league", does not imply "above average"... now you're just trying to backtrack.

If I say "Melo is one of the better scorers in the NBA", I'm not saying "he's above average", I'm saying he's in the elite group of scorers.

Pierzynski4Prez
11-16-2012, 03:23 PM
Well Knicks didn't do anything worthwhile to finish the 10-11 season, and NY could have just waited to sign him in the 2011 offseason while keeping just about everything they gave up. So Denver won in my eyes, but it doesn't really matter since NY got what the only thing they wanted anyways.

b@llhog24
11-16-2012, 03:24 PM
Btw Denver won the trade.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:24 PM
Saying someone is "one of the better of anything in the league", does not imply "above average"... now you're just trying to backtrack.

If I say "Melo is one of the better scorers in the NBA", I'm not saying "he's above average", I'm saying he's in the elite group of scorers.

No I am not. Assuming every team carries 2 point guards that's 64. Lin is at worst outer top 15 defensively. Being better than over 75% of the leagues point guards is definitely ONE OF THE BETTER. I never said best or elite, I said he is one of the better defensive point guards in the league.

I am not backtracking don't blame me because you can't read and quoted me wrong.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 03:25 PM
No I am not. Assuming every team carries 2 point guards that's 64. Lin is at worst outer top 15 defensively. Being better than over 75% of the leagues point guards is definitely ONE OF THE BETTER. I never said best or elite, I said he is one of the better defensive point guards in the league.

I am not backtracking don't blame me because you can't read and quoted me wrong.

ok you're right, you win. :win:

:rolleyes:

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 03:25 PM
You still have yet to bring up any valid point to say he isn't. Attacking someone else's argument instead of building your own is proof you have none.

You haven't brought up any valid points proving he is a good defender. Negative proof fallacy. It has to be proven that Lin is a good defender, not that he is not.

Jarvo
11-16-2012, 03:26 PM
Nuggets. One hot start for New York doesn't change that.

This. Melo has to get out the 1st round to prove me wrong.

But anyway it goes Nuggets won the trade.

kyubi256
11-16-2012, 03:26 PM
If somebody asked you today, would you trade Carmelo, Felton + filler for Wilson Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov, Billups and a couple late 1st round picks?

I'd make it then. I'd make it now. He's a superstar

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 03:28 PM
I am still waiting for someone saying Nuggets one to actually mention the key players involved.

nickdymez
11-16-2012, 03:28 PM
This. Melo has to get out the 1st round to prove me wrong.

But anyway it goes Nuggets won the trade.

Have the Nuggets made it past the first round?

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 03:29 PM
You haven't brought up any valid points proving he is a good defender. Negative proof fallacy. It has to be proven that Lin is a good defender, not that he is not.

Top 3 in steals, good defensive rating, 4th among PG in defensive win shares. That's a whole lot more to go one than " he is not a good defender because I say so."

But w/e keep your head buried under the sand and think he isn't.

KnickFanSince91
11-16-2012, 03:29 PM
I'd make it then. I'd make it now. He's a superstar

If you are the Knicks, you would give up Melo and Felton for Gallo & Co.?

KnickFanSince91
11-16-2012, 03:32 PM
Well Knicks didn't do anything worthwhile to finish the 10-11 season, and NY could have just waited to sign him in the 2011 offseason while keeping just about everything they gave up. So Denver won in my eyes, but it doesn't really matter since NY got what the only thing they wanted anyways.


This has been disproved so many times. Even if there was a CBA in place going into that off season, we would have had to denounce the rights to everybody involved in the trade except for maybe Felton in order to sign Melo out right.

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 03:38 PM
Top 3 in steals, good defensive rating, 4th among PG in defensive win shares. That's a whole lot more to go one than " he is not a good defender because I say so."

But w/e keep your head buried under the sand and think he isn't.

Not burying my head in anything. When he was on the Knicks I said he was at best and average defender.

"Top 3 in steals"

Well I guess getting 2.5 SPG means that you stay in front of your man, make your rotations, go over/ under screens properly, play good help d, put a hand up to contest shots, trap well, etc. Oh wait you can average 2.5 SPG and just do something like play the passing lanes well and have good hands, but can still be horrible at everything else.

Lin has good hands. A tiny facet of the defense.


"defensive rating"

I guess in the fantasy world in which Carlos Boozer is as good of a defender as KG, and is a better defender than TD and Tyson Chandler Lin is a great defender.


As for defensive win shares, I would appreciate a link.

Jarvo
11-16-2012, 03:39 PM
Have the Nuggets made it past the first round?

No but they're in the West and give teams a harder fight then the Knicks. I just don't believe just because they're on a hot start that they'll beat Boston or Miami in a series.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 03:48 PM
No but they're in the West and give teams a harder fight then the Knicks. I just don't believe just because they're on a hot start that they'll beat Boston or Miami in a series.

So NY has to win, but DEN gets a pass because they play in the West? :confused:

Again its not really about W/L record, DEN was better after the trade for a short while, but it was also largely in part because Billups being traded opened the door for Lawson who made them a better team.

Fact is every player DEN got from NY has been injury prone and have not performed up to expectations. So I don't see how anyone can say DEN won.

NY went from a .500 team to a top 4 team in the EAST now, DEN went from a perennial 50+ win team to an above average team.

Jarvo
11-16-2012, 03:50 PM
So NY has to win, but DEN gets a pass because they play in the West? :confused:

Again its not really about W/L record, DEN was better after the trade for a short while, but it was also largely in part because Billups being traded opened the door for Lawson who made them a better team.

Fact is every player DEN got from NY has been injury prone and have not performed up to expectations. So I don't see how anyone can say DEN won.

NY went from a .500 team to a top 4 team in the EAST now, DEN went from a perennial 50+ win team to an above average team.

Point blank none of them won't win a title, But Denver won the trade. NY got Melo thinking he would shoot them to a ECF/ NBA Finals and Nuggets are still trying to build I don't think they're done dealing players.

MintBerryCrunch
11-16-2012, 03:51 PM
Pretty even trade , honestly .

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 03:51 PM
Point blank none won't win a title, But Denver won the trade.

lol, you make no sense. Only a handful of teams have won an NBA title in the past 20 years. Thats not how you judge a trade.

Ask DEN if they would trade an under performing injury prone Gallo, an injury prone Chandler, a 3rd string center in Mozgov and a late 1st for Melo now and they'd do it in a heartbeat.

Bklyn24
11-16-2012, 03:53 PM
Top 3 in steals, good defensive rating, 4th among PG in defensive win shares. That's a whole lot more to go one than " he is not a good defender because I say so."

But w/e keep your head buried under the sand and think he isn't.

I did not read the entire argument but heres my opinion. I think Lin is a pretty good defender who benefits from gambling but also gets burned too much as a result. If you watched his games with the knicks last year he was a big time defensive liability against better PG's(always had to be bailed out by shumpert). The problem is that the rockets did not give him all that money to just be a defensive player. They brought him thinking he was going to be a great overall PG. 10ppg and 6apg is definitely not going to cut it. Its way too early to think thats what hes going to average for the season but as of right now he looks pretty bad out there other than some nice defensive plays here and there

Hitman21
11-16-2012, 03:58 PM
The two best players in that trade are melo and felton and we have both.. Seriously now stop.. We beat mia no love, beat the same team twice in a row no love.. U would think after takin out spurs we would get some.. Now thats called envy.. Stop the hate, even chuck gave us props.. I sware if i could be in the room with some of these knick haters.. Tomahawk to the face :facepalm:

I would say "beat" is an understatement.

Hitman21
11-16-2012, 03:59 PM
Point blank none of them won't win a title, But Denver won the trade. NY got Melo thinking he would shoot them to a ECF/ NBA Finals and Nuggets are still trying to build I don't think they're done dealing players.

what does that even mean? does that mean all of them will win a title?

Bklyn24
11-16-2012, 04:02 PM
what does that even mean? does that mean all of them will win a title?

no way will none of them never not win no title..and i mean never!

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 04:15 PM
I am still waiting for someone saying Nuggets one to actually mention the key players involved.

why does that matter? They got rid of a star player who couldn't win for them, and got back depth, flexibility, draft picks, and typically when a team sends away a so called "franchise" player, they eat ****. Denver was still a very good team, with more options going forward.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 04:16 PM
So NY has to win, but DEN gets a pass because they play in the West? :confused:

Again its not really about W/L record, DEN was better after the trade for a short while, but it was also largely in part because Billups being traded opened the door for Lawson who made them a better team.

Fact is every player DEN got from NY has been injury prone and have not performed up to expectations. So I don't see how anyone can say DEN won.

NY went from a .500 team to a top 4 team in the EAST now, DEN went from a perennial 50+ win team to an above average team.

see, now you are on to something. its not about the moving parts, its what the trade gave both sides, and allowed both sides to do next.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 04:29 PM
Not burying my head in anything. When he was on the Knicks I said he was at best and average defender.

"Top 3 in steals"

Well I guess getting 2.5 SPG means that you stay in front of your man, make your rotations, go over/ under screens properly, play good help d, put a hand up to contest shots, trap well, etc. Oh wait you can average 2.5 SPG and just do something like play the passing lanes well and have good hands, but can still be horrible at everything else.

Lin has good hands. A tiny facet of the defense.


"defensive rating"

I guess in the fantasy world in which Carlos Boozer is as good of a defender as KG, and is a better defender than TD and Tyson Chandler Lin is a great defender.


As for defensive win shares, I would appreciate a link.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_advanced.html

29th overall

As for PG

Jennings, Holiday, and Curry are ahead of him.

KnickaBocka.44
11-16-2012, 04:33 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_advanced.html

29th overall

As for PG

Jennings, Holiday, and Curry are ahead of him.

He's actually tied for 2nd amongst PG's. Lin, Curry, Hill, and Holliday are all at .4

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 04:34 PM
He's 5th. George Hill is a PG too

Ehh he is more of a combo guard but I guess you could count it. Regardless.

Santana4Prez'08
11-16-2012, 04:36 PM
well, considering we now have felton on our roster, mozzy and wil haven't been as good in denver as they were in NY, and gallo isnt of super star caliber, i'd say NY won

Hitman21
11-16-2012, 04:36 PM
no way will none of them never not win no title..and i mean never!

LMFAO my point exactly

KnickaBocka.44
11-16-2012, 04:37 PM
Ehh he is more of a combo guard but I guess you could count it. Regardless.

Yeah, he starts at PG though. Not sure if you noticed my edit, but Lin is actually tied for 2nd with all of the others aside from Jennings.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 04:38 PM
I was assuming they ranked it by smaller increments.

KnickaBocka.44
11-16-2012, 04:40 PM
It's just in alphabetical order

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 04:44 PM
why does that matter?


I think the quality of the players mattering in a trade is pretty self explanatory. And the thread title says in hindsight.


They got rid of a star player who couldn't win for them

The team couldn't win.


and got back depth

Mozgov, Chandler, don't see the depth in hindsight.


, flexibility

Nope, as of right now, they are over the cap. 67 million on the payroll this year. 72 million for next year.



draft picks

True, I forgot which ones, but they did get draft picks.


, and typically when a team sends away a so called "franchise" player, they eat ****. Denver was still a very good team, with more options going forward.


Denver currently has no cap flexibility. That's the team: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/denver.htm



In the end the name of the game is winning a championship. By acquiring a superstar the Knicks have positioned themselves better to do just that. We weren't going anywhere with Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov and Denver isn't going anywhere with them either.



As it currently stands the Knicks have shot at a championship, the Nuggets have no such thing.

yanksbucs
11-16-2012, 04:45 PM
I was assuming they ranked it by smaller increments.

you're trying so hard, it's cute.

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 04:48 PM
you're trying so hard, it's cute.

What? That helps my argument lol... I thought he was ranked lower than he is...

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 04:48 PM
well, considering we now have felton on our roster, mozzy and wil haven't been as good in denver as they were in NY, and gallo isnt of super star caliber, i'd say NY won

Pretty much this.

yanksbucs
11-16-2012, 04:49 PM
What? That helps my argument lol... I thought he was ranked lower than he is...

I'm just applauding your effort through out the thread.

topdog
11-16-2012, 04:49 PM
The Nugs won it no matter how you look at it for the simple fact that they got so much for a player NY could have simply signed in the off-season.

New York would have been deeper sooner and could have potentially put together an enticing enough package for Chris Paul.

Bklyn24
11-16-2012, 04:53 PM
The Nugs won it no matter how you look at it for the simple fact that they got so much for a player NY could have simply signed in the off-season.

New York would have been deeper sooner and could have potentially put together an enticing enough package for Chris Paul.

its about evaluating the trade, not all the "what ifs". Nobody knew what was going to happen that offseason and many thought melo might re-sign with the nuggets cause he would be making so much more money, so the knicks diddnt want to take a chance. It also wasnt a guarantee that the knicks would still have been able to get paul too.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 04:55 PM
I think the quality of the players mattering in a trade is pretty self explanatory. And the thread title says in hindsight.


When there are that many moving pieces, its not just the players involved, its what each team did with those pieces, and what the movement may have created for others.



The team couldn't win.

No team since Syracuse has won with Melo. Hasn't that dawned on his fans? The man can be electrifying, but his accomplishments have never led to team success, despite having very capable rosters and coaches.



Mozgov, Chandler, don't see the depth in hindsight.

Denver had a star who couldn't get it done for them. So now, they prefer a deep team. Are they in search of a star? Sure. But they had a fake one before, one whose gaudy numbers did nothing for them, due to complete inconsistency, while being a star player whose numbers have no translated to winning since entering the NBA like a superstar should.


Nope, as of right now, they are over the cap. 67 million on the payroll this year. 72 million for next year.

It left them with flexibility at the time is what I was saying, sorry if I didn't say it right. They have made their commitments since.


True, I forgot which ones, but they did get draft picks.

Which in Denver's case, is good. They have excellent scouting (see Faried, or Lawson).



Denver currently has no cap flexibility. That's the team: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/denver.htm

Like I said, I meant after the trade, sorry.


In the end the name of the game is winning a championship. By acquiring a superstar the Knicks have positioned themselves better to do just that. We weren't going anywhere with Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov and Denver isn't going anywhere with them either.

Do you honestly think the Knicks are championship contenders? I don't. And the Nuggets still have a ton more trade assets to acquire a star.


As it currently stands the Knicks have shot at a championship, the Nuggets have no such thing.

I get that NY'ers are elated with the 6-0 start, and how its been done. But you understand the game. You understand it won't be the glory days for 76 more games, right? Valley's are coming. The Knicks over the past 2 years have not shown championship caliber basketball in the slightest. It's great we are hearing all these things come from JR Smith's mouth, and Melo is playing defense right now, etc. But we have mountains of historical evidence to show that a lot of their guys are WAY overachieving, and will fall back down to earth. Its that flat line that always appears on a players statistical output. You have 4 players way over theirs right now. They will drop. And as the ridiculous shooting numbers even out, the Knicks won't be blowing out teams like they have been. And we haven't even factored in the age of the role players. They WILL miss some times throughout the season, that is part of the game.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 04:58 PM
The Nugs won it no matter how you look at it for the simple fact that they got so much for a player NY could have simply signed in the off-season.

New York would have been deeper sooner and could have potentially put together an enticing enough package for Chris Paul.

That is part of what I am getting at. When there are this many moving parts in a trade, trying to pick a winner off just the players traded alone is stupid. Its about what those players got their teams, and furthermore, we need to evaluate if the trade was even necessary.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 04:59 PM
its about evaluating the trade, not all the "what ifs". Nobody knew what was going to happen that offseason and many thought melo might re-sign with the nuggets cause he would be making so much more money, so the knicks diddnt want to take a chance. It also wasnt a guarantee that the knicks would still have been able to get paul too.

That is so short sighted. Denver hasn't even used the picks they got, so how can we judge it? Billups was taking time from a better guard, does that factor in? There is so much more to a large trade. Looking at it like you are is short sighted, and you don't get the whole picture.

TheIlladelph16
11-16-2012, 05:00 PM
I think the quality of the players mattering in a trade is pretty self explanatory. And the thread title says in hindsight.

The team couldn't win.

Denver surrounded him with a talented cast. When playoff time comes, it is up to your team's star/superstar to carry you through the playoffs. Melo has accomplished this 1 time since has been in the league. But as an over generalized statement, yes the team couldn't win. That team starts and ends with its star: Melo.

Mozgov, Chandler, don't see the depth in hindsight.

They got at least three capable starters, 1 bench piece, and multiple draft picks for Billups (who was stupidly amnestied after the season), Melo, and garbage. That's why its considered depth.

Nope, as of right now, they are over the cap. 67 million on the payroll this year. 72 million for next year.

That's due to extensions and contracts signed after the trade had been completed for a while. They certainly had financial flexibility after the trade, your just choosing to ignore this and simply looking at the number right now.

True, I forgot which ones, but they did get draft picks.

Denver currently has no cap flexibility. That's the team: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/denver.htm

In the end the name of the game is winning a championship. By acquiring a superstar the Knicks have positioned themselves better to do just that. We weren't going anywhere with Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov and Denver isn't going anywhere with them either.

I agree that your team was not going anywhere with those players, but where we disagree is that your team does not have a chance at a championship. They are off to a hot start, but your superstar has yet to prove he is capable of even carrying a team TO a championship, let alone winning one. I give them credit for a good start, and they are certainly a better team than last year. So are the Bobcats though so what does that really mean when you have significantly better teams in front of you. Until this happens over the course of a season and a playoff run though, the Knicks are what they are: an at best fringe contender

As it currently stands the Knicks have shot at a championship, the Nuggets have no such thing.

See above

Evolution23
11-16-2012, 05:01 PM
Both teams win the trade.

topdog
11-16-2012, 05:02 PM
its about evaluating the trade, not all the "what ifs". Nobody knew what was going to happen that offseason and many thought melo might re-sign with the nuggets cause he would be making so much more money, so the knicks diddnt want to take a chance. It also wasnt a guarantee that the knicks would still have been able to get paul too.

Then we can't look back in hindsight yet because I believe the Knicks still owe a 2014 1st round draft pick as well as a right to swap 2016 picks.

And there is no way in hell 'Melo was re-signing with Denver. That much was clear.

I didn't say that the Knicks would be able to get Paul, but they would have had a better chance of trading for him or somebody else. It's only about at the 10 game mark this season and people want to ignore the fact that Denver has been doing quite well since the trade because the Knicks are perfect on the year. Denver is built for a long season, the Knicks are questionable with their age.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 05:03 PM
Both teams win the trade.

Honestly, at this point, this is an acceptable answer. The trade hasn't even had all its results to the player movement yet.

topdog
11-16-2012, 05:05 PM
Plus, if we're going to evaluate the broader picture, you have to consider the fact that New York used the amnesty on Billups because of this trade and so now can't use it on Amare who we're not sure what he'll do to the Knicks chemistry.

KnicksorBust
11-16-2012, 05:05 PM
But we have mountains of historical evidence to show that a lot of their guys are WAY overachieving, and will fall back down to earth. Its that flat line that always appears on a players statistical output. You have 4 players way over theirs right now. They will drop. And as the ridiculous shooting numbers even out, the Knicks won't be blowing out teams like they have been. And we haven't even factored in the age of the role players. They WILL miss some times throughout the season, that is part of the game.

That's total BS. Kidd and JR Smith's shooting numbers are overachieving. That's about it. And considering the fact that two of our highest volume scorers, Melo and Felton, are slightly below what I'd expect them to produce (in relation to effeciency), it's less overwhelming. I'd love to hear about the rest of these players that are "way" overachieving because the longer that myth perpetuates the worse it gets. With each game people are going to need to accept that it's less and less of a "fluke" hot streak and more and more of a strong balanced defensive team that moves the ball and finds open shooters.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 05:11 PM
That's total BS. Kidd and JR Smith's shooting numbers are overachieving. That's about it. And considering the fact that two of our highest volume scorers, Melo and Felton, are slightly below what I'd expect them to produce (in relation to effeciency), it's less overwhelming. I'd love to hear about the rest of these players that are "way" overachieving because the longer that myth perpetuates the worse it gets. With each game people are going to need to accept that it's less and less of a "fluke" hot streak and more and more of a strong balanced defensive team that moves the ball and finds open shooters.


I am speaking specifically shooting in Smith and Kidd's part. Smith's turnover rate will not be sustained, Kidd's offensive rating will not be sustained, nor will Smith's. Brewer's shooting and offensive rating will not be sustained, and I can't believe in Melo's defensive effort keeping consistent pace.

The Knicks will come back down, unless you think all these veterans with mountains of evidence will have not only career years, but in Kidd and Smith's case, BY FAR AND AWAY their best efficiency years as a player.

ewmania
11-16-2012, 05:16 PM
we did.... gallo will remain a inconsistent roleplay and chandler is a injury prone player that does everything ok but does nothing great

mozgov is a flop that was brought to the NBA because of dantoni and they gave up felton the only guy in the trade that had value now we got him back :) so in reality all they got from us was gallo mosgov and chandler

LongIslandIcedZ
11-16-2012, 05:19 PM
^^ 2 posts up. Some valid points, however, I dont think you are nearly as unbias with regards to think Knicks as you believe you are.


I agree the Knicks offensive numbers will not sustain, but there is no doubt in my mind their defensive numbers will continue to be among the best in the NBA. There are way too many what ifs when it comes to discussing who won this trade. Both teams are better than they were. I think the Knicks have a much better chance to make a deep playoff run than the Nuggets. Nuggets are a deep team, but without that go to guy, I dont see them making too much noise in the playoffs. Knicks I can see making it to the ECF. A couple teams can beat them, but I am much more confident in the Knicks making it to the conference finals than the Nuggets.

KnicksorBust
11-16-2012, 05:21 PM
I am speaking specifically shooting in Smith and Kidd's part. Smith's turnover rate will not be sustained, Kidd's offensive rating will not be sustained, nor will Smith's. Brewer's shooting and offensive rating will not be sustained, and I can't believe in Melo's defensive effort keeping consistent pace.

The Knicks will come back down, unless you think all these veterans with mountains of evidence will have not only career years, but in Kidd and Smith's case, BY FAR AND AWAY their best efficiency years as a player.

Brewer had a comparable or superior ORtg/TS% in each of his first 3 seasons in the league when he was starting for Utah. So I don't see how you can make that claim.

You neglect to mention that this is Carmelo Anthony lowest TS% and one of his lowest ORtg's of his career and the lowest since 2003-2004. That is our highest volume offensive player. And Raymond Felton (our 3rd leading scorer) is at or below his career effeciency marks. How does that balance out?

Your claim of "a lot of players way overachieving" was simply false and a mis-statement.

KnicksorBust
11-16-2012, 05:23 PM
Oh and for the record, playing great defense is not overachieving. Defense is the one consistent aspect a basketball team can rely because it's built on effort.

topdog
11-16-2012, 05:23 PM
we did.... gallo will remain a inconsistent roleplay and chandler is a injury prone player that does everything ok but does nothing great

mozgov is a flop that was brought to the NBA because of dantoni and they gave up felton the only guy in the trade that had value now we got him back :) so in reality all they got from us was gallo mosgov and chandler

Plus picks. Not to mention Felton didn't just disappear but rather got Denver Andre Miller back from Portland and Jordan Hamilton.

New York additionally lost their amnesty, bought out Corey Brewer, paid off Eddy Curry's salary for the Wolves and gave up Anthony Randolph who they got in the David Lee S&T.

All that for a player who they could have signed in free agency.

YoungOne
11-16-2012, 05:24 PM
surprisingly no one can see who voted which one :rolleyes:

Go_NUGGETS
11-16-2012, 05:26 PM
A lot of yall seem to forget...We also acquired Kenneth Faried by trading Carmelo, and then trading Felton for the 22nd pick from Portland. So please, include Kenneth Faried in the players that were part of the trade aswell.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 05:29 PM
Brewer had a comparable or superior ORtg/TS% in each of his first 3 seasons in the league when he was starting for Utah. So I don't see how you can make that claim.

You neglect to mention that this is Carmelo Anthony lowest TS% and one of his lowest ORtg's of his career and the lowest since 2003-2004. That is our highest volume offensive player. And Raymond Felton (our 3rd leading scorer) is at or below his career effeciency marks. How does that balance out?

Your claim of "a lot of players way overachieving" was simply false and a mis-statement.

Funny how you basically said the exact same thing I did in the "Knicks a top 10 offense this year" thread.

You have a few guys hitting a MUCH higher clip than they will be by seasons end. This is a fact. Melo is barely off his usual self, he is not the outlier here. Felton is also right around his career marks.

If you truly think this Knicks offense will continue to shoot like this, and not turn the ball over at all, fine. Up to you.

And defense for Melo is a consistency thing. I am responding to the next post you made. I don't buy he will give effort for 82 games on that end.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 05:31 PM
^^ 2 posts up. Some valid points, however, I dont think you are nearly as unbias with regards to think Knicks as you believe you are.


I agree the Knicks offensive numbers will not sustain, but there is no doubt in my mind their defensive numbers will continue to be among the best in the NBA. There are way too many what ifs when it comes to discussing who won this trade. Both teams are better than they were. I think the Knicks have a much better chance to make a deep playoff run than the Nuggets. Nuggets are a deep team, but without that go to guy, I dont see them making too much noise in the playoffs. Knicks I can see making it to the ECF. A couple teams can beat them, but I am much more confident in the Knicks making it to the conference finals than the Nuggets.

I would be too. The east sends a couple of cupcakes to the big dance every year. No such luxury out west.

KnicksorBust
11-16-2012, 05:32 PM
A lot of yall seem to forget...We also acquired Kenneth Faried by trading Carmelo, and then trading Felton for the 22nd pick from Portland. So please, include Kenneth Faried in the players that were part of the trade aswell.

Are you sure about that Felton trade? Because I think that's wrong. I'm pretty sure you just drafted Faried with the pick you owned.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 05:33 PM
The Nugs won it no matter how you look at it for the simple fact that they got so much for a player NY could have simply signed in the off-season.

New York would have been deeper sooner and could have potentially put together an enticing enough package for Chris Paul.

Thats a silly argument.

Look how much HOU gave up for Harden, when they could have signed him.

Look how much LAC gave up for CP3 and they could have signed him.

You can't just sit around waiting for a star player to fall into your lap via FAgency, because there are no guarantees. Ask the Nets about Howard, a guy they "could have just signed".

KnicksorBust
11-16-2012, 05:34 PM
Funny how you basically said the exact same thing I did in the "Knicks a top 10 offense this year" thread.

You have a few guys hitting a MUCH higher clip than they will be by seasons end. This is a fact. Melo is barely off his usual self, he is not the outlier here. Felton is also right around his career marks.

If you truly think this Knicks offense will continue to shoot like this, and not turn the ball over at all, fine. Up to you.

And defense for Melo is a consistency thing. I am responding to the next post you made. I don't buy he will give effort for 82 games on that end.

THAT I will give you. And I'm REALLY enjoying it too. :)

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 05:34 PM
Are you sure about that Felton trade? Because I think that's wrong. I'm pretty sure you just drafted Faried with the pick you owned.

Correct, Faried was DEN's pick.

Andre Miller and Hamilton came via POR for Felton.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 05:35 PM
Funny how you basically said the exact same thing I did in the "Knicks a top 10 offense this year" thread.

You have a few guys hitting a MUCH higher clip than they will be by seasons end. This is a fact. Melo is barely off his usual self, he is not the outlier here. Felton is also right around his career marks.

If you truly think this Knicks offense will continue to shoot like this, and not turn the ball over at all, fine. Up to you.

And defense for Melo is a consistency thing. I am responding to the next post you made. I don't buy he will give effort for 82 games on that end.

So what though, doesn't EVERY team have guys that are overachieving right now? NY also has guys like Novak, Melo, Felton shooting below their career norms. Everything evens out.

And its not like NY is squeaking by wins, they have a +14 differential!

And FWIW, NY is only shooting 46% which is not even top 10 in the entire league. And they are 2nd in 3 point shooting behind MIA. But I'm sure you're not predicting MIA to fall off even though they are shooting better than NY right?

As for TO's, thats where Kidd & Felton have helped, so I see that staying low. They are a smart veteran team, they should be low on TO's.

LongIslandIcedZ
11-16-2012, 05:38 PM
I would be too. The east sends a couple of cupcakes to the big dance every year. No such luxury out west.

I know you know your stuff when it comes to basketball, but if you are considering this years Knicks to be a "cupcake," then I think your way off. Its one thing to say they wont win it all, I could hop on board with that, but a cupcake?

C'mon man

colinskik
11-16-2012, 05:40 PM
I am speaking specifically shooting in Smith and Kidd's part. Smith's turnover rate will not be sustained, Kidd's offensive rating will not be sustained, nor will Smith's. Brewer's shooting and offensive rating will not be sustained, and I can't believe in Melo's defensive effort keeping consistent pace.

The Knicks will come back down, unless you think all these veterans with mountains of evidence will have not only career years, but in Kidd and Smith's case, BY FAR AND AWAY their best efficiency years as a player.
You need to qualify these comments, otherwise you're wrong, simply put.

Some of my fellow Knicks posters have already given you thoughtful answers, and I'll try to add to that.

JR is definitely playing above his level at this point, but a drastic drop off can't be assumed. If you watch his game closely and compare it to last year, he's taking fewer tough shots (still more than I'd like to see) and making the right basketball play the majority of the time. He has cut down on his pointless dribbling, unless it proceeds his all too predicable step back jumper, which he's actually hitting at a good rate. His defense effort is finally matching his defensive talent, so I don't foresee a regression there.

Kidd's level of play is actually explained very simply. His offensive rating is sky high right now, but he's only shooting a max of 8 shots a night, most of which are wide open shots. Most night he takes closer to 5 shots. It's not too difficult for NBA players to hit two wide open shots a night. Plus, he's not handling the ball like a PG, or for that matter, like he has throughout his career, so his TOs will remain low. His main role is team facilitator/quality control expert.

And let's not forget that once Amare comes back he will provide scoring in a more reliable manner. We know he's good for at least 12ppg at the very, very least.

topdog
11-16-2012, 05:48 PM
Thats a silly argument.

Look how much HOU gave up for Harden, when they could have signed him.

Look how much LAC gave up for CP3 and they could have signed him.

You can't just sit around waiting for a star player to fall into your lap via FAgency, because there are no guarantees. Ask the Nets about Howard, a guy they "could have just signed".

In the case of Houston, Harden never said, "Trade me to Houston, that's where I want to be." He didn't ask for a trade at all. Houston was in no way the odds-on favorite.

In the case of Chris Paul, he let management know he wouldn't re-sign. There had been talk of him joining Melo and Amare in New York, but he never demanded that trade. He let management figure out the best deal for them and has not yet re-signed.

Carmelo demanded a trade to either New York or possibly a chance of going to Brooklyn (but that was more of Brooklyn hoping than Carmelo offering). It was nearly the trade deadline when he was dealt, so it wouldn't have been much of a wait.

As for Dwight, that's on Dwight. For whatever silly reason, he invoked the player option on his contract. He made the trade to the Nets nearly impossible just like the Knicks made trading for Paul impossibe with the Melo trade.

You're right - there's no guarantee, but there's about 99% assurance when a guy spends half the year saying "trade me to New York or I will sign there in the off-season."

kenzo400
11-16-2012, 05:51 PM
I think the trade should only be judged by the players received. Consider the fact that the Knicks added so many other pieces (most importantely Chandler) It's hard to tell how important Melo alone is on that team, or what they would have been like if they had not added Felton, Kidd, Chandler etc..

The same can be said about Denver. Although they only recentely added Iggy and only end of last season got McGee. They were clearly a better team with Gallo, Chandler, Mosgov, , but that's also only because they got so many players in return. Not because they are simply a better team without Melo on the roster. The only way to judge that would have been to remove him and not get anyone else in return.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 05:52 PM
In the case of Houston, Harden never said, "Trade me to Houston, that's where I want to be." He didn't ask for a trade at all. Houston was in no way the odds-on favorite.

In the case of Chris Paul, he let management know he wouldn't re-sign. There had been talk of him joining Melo and Amare in New York, but he never demanded that trade. He let management figure out the best deal for them and has not yet re-signed.

Carmelo demanded a trade to either New York or possibly a chance of going to Brooklyn (but that was more of Brooklyn hoping than Carmelo offering). It was nearly the trade deadline when he was dealt, so it wouldn't have been much of a wait.

As for Dwight, that's on Dwight. For whatever silly reason, he invoked the player option on his contract. He made the trade to the Nets nearly impossible just like the Knicks made trading for Paul impossibe with the Melo trade.

You're right - there's no guarantee, but there's about 99% assurance when a guy spends half the year saying "trade me to New York or I will sign there in the off-season."

Carmelo said that?:confused:

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 05:54 PM
And just to add to my earlier point, I do expect JR to have a career year. He's a different player this year, he's not just jacking up crazy 3's.

Coming into this year almost 50% of his shot attempts were 3's.

This year less than 25% of JR's attempts have been 3's.

In fact of his last 27 FGA, only THREE have been 3's. And he's hit them all. That tells me he's not taking a 3 unless its a high % open look.

Jarvo
11-16-2012, 06:06 PM
what does that even mean? does that mean all of them will win a title?

It means the Knicks nor Nuggets won't win or reach the NBA Finals :facepalm:

RLundi
11-16-2012, 06:09 PM
And just to add to my earlier point, I do expect JR to have a career year. He's a different player this year, he's not just jacking up crazy 3's.

Coming into this year almost 50% of his shot attempts were 3's.

This year less than 25% of JR's attempts have been 3's.

In fact of his last 27 FGA, only THREE have been 3's. And he's hit them all. That tells me he's not taking a 3 unless its a high % open look.

Lol we're talking about J.R. ******** Smith. He's not having a career-anything. The absolute first sign of trouble, he will revert to his old self. Winning cures everything but people don't change. Unless you expect the Knicks to go 82-0 JR Smith WILL cause problems and will revert to being an inefficient chucker.

king4day
11-16-2012, 06:19 PM
I put even but it depends on how you look at it.

Free Agents now want to go to NY because of Melo.
Denver had to trade to get the team they have (and they did it extremely well).

Bruno
11-16-2012, 06:25 PM
it's still too soon for honest hindsight.

_Supreme_
11-16-2012, 06:33 PM
seriously some people should be banned from making threads

JB is notorious for these kind of threads :laugh2:

slyone_nyc
11-16-2012, 06:35 PM
mello > gallo, chandler mosgov... felton is on the Knicks and billups allowed us to sign tyson. i think the knicks benefited more, not to mention the fact the wilson chandler didn't play last season and has been injury prone and not been playing well, gallo shooting 30% from the field this season? looks like the Knicks are the winners in the present and future...

KnicksorBust
11-16-2012, 06:38 PM
it's still too soon for honest hindsight.

Why? The rosters won't drastically be effected by that trade anymore at this point.

BKLYNpigeon
11-16-2012, 06:40 PM
lets just say... the first team to make the Finals was better off.


they say the team that ends up with the bets player usually wins. Denver has a lot of very talented players and on reasonable contracts. they have a ton of chips if they decide to make any trades.

slyone_nyc
11-16-2012, 06:40 PM
Lol we're talking about J.R. ******** Smith. He's not having a career-anything. The absolute first sign of trouble, he will revert to his old self. Winning cures everything but people don't change. Unless you expect the Knicks to go 82-0 JR Smith WILL cause problems and will revert to being an inefficient chucker.

''People don't change'' lol, really??? maybe you mean a players tendencies dont change, but you'd still be wrong...

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 06:47 PM
When there are that many moving pieces, its not just the players involved, its what each team did with those pieces, and what the movement may have created for others.

I guess.



No team since Syracuse has won with Melo. Hasn't that dawned on his fans? The man can be electrifying, but his accomplishments have never led to team success, despite having very capable rosters and coaches.

Well if by won you mean won a championship then yes. Though, before this past year no team has won anything with LeBron. Melo made it to the WCF before losing to the eventual champs.



Denver had a star who couldn't get it done for them. So now, they prefer a deep team. Are they in search of a star? Sure. But they had a fake one before, one whose gaudy numbers did nothing for them, due to complete inconsistency, while being a star player whose numbers have no translated to winning since entering the NBA like a superstar should.


The are in search of a star with no real way to get one aside from trade. Their only chance of acquiring one is if another team decides to trade theirs. Melo did nothing but get them to the WCF.






Do you honestly think the Knicks are championship contenders? I don't. And the Nuggets still have a ton more trade assets to acquire a star.



I think the teams in both conferences who make it to the conference finals are contenders. I definitely think the Knicks can make it to the conference finals, so I do believe they are contenders.


I get that NY'ers are elated with the 6-0 start, and how its been done. But you understand the game. You understand it won't be the glory days for 76 more games, right? Valley's are coming. It's great we are hearing all these things come from JR Smith's mouth, and Melo is playing defense right now, etc. But we have mountains of historical evidence to show that a lot of their guys are WAY overachieving, and will fall back down to earth. Its that flat line that always appears on a players statistical output. You have 4 players way over theirs right now. They will drop. And as the ridiculous shooting numbers even out, the Knicks won't be blowing out teams like they have been. And we haven't even factored in the age of the role players. They WILL miss some times throughout the season, that is part of the game.


I agree with the fact that we wont go 82-0 or even 72-10 and that the valleys will come, but the current team is better fundamentally regardless of whether we are winning or not.


Some guys are way overachieving, but other guys, as KoB, pointed out are underachieving. As some guys fall back to earth other will ascend back to earth too.



The Knicks over the past 2 years have not shown championship caliber basketball in the slightest.

First year only half a season with Melo, no center. Second year, no PG, horrendous bench. A non-Knicks fan really wouldn't understand how big the impact of us not having a PG last year was . There is a reason a agreed with you prior to the start of last season that the Knicks would be a 6-8 seed.


Once we got a decent PG (from worst player in the NBA TD to Lin) and a bit of depth (Smith, Novak, Davis) we did fine and closed the season out 18-6.
Since Woodson replaced D'antoni we are 24-6.

knicksfan42
11-16-2012, 06:50 PM
Lol we're talking about J.R. ******** Smith. He's not having a career-anything. The absolute first sign of trouble, he will revert to his old self. Winning cures everything but people don't change. Unless you expect the Knicks to go 82-0 JR Smith WILL cause problems and will revert to being an inefficient chucker.


I hated Jr Smith last season, because he is indeed a chucker, but inefficient he is not. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjr01.html

topdog
11-16-2012, 06:55 PM
Carmelo said that?:confused:

http://www.faniq.com/article/Carmelo-Anthony-demands-to-be-traded-to-the-Knicks-2240890


Carmelo Anthony has reportedly told the Nuggets he wont sign his 3 year, $65 million extension unless he is traded to the New York Knicks. That demand basically puts the Nuggets in an impossible situation. Other teams may be able to put together a better package for a deal but why would they if they know that Anthony is going to walk at the end of this year. Should the Nuggets give in and get whatever they can from the Knicks or play this out at the end of the year and let Anthony walk away for nothing?

I'm sure you'll attack the source (it's been awhile and I'm not digging) or the fact that there isn't an actual quote attributed to Melo, but if there was such a quote Melo would have been fined.

chicagocubsfan
11-16-2012, 06:55 PM
Well the Knicks haven't really done anything of note in the playoffs, and the Nuggets to the Lakers to game 7 last year. So I'll go Nuggets. The Knicks have had a good start, but until they make the second round the Nuggets won the trade.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 06:59 PM
Well the Knicks haven't really done anything of note in the playoffs, and the Nuggets to the Lakers to game 7 last year. So I'll go Nuggets. The Knicks have had a good start, but until they make the second round the Nuggets won the trade.

This makes no sense... by this logic OKC won the Harden trade because they will undoubtedly go further than HOU this year right?

Lets just ignore the fact that OKC was already a much better team than HOU before the trade.

Just like you're ignoring the fact that DEN was already a 50+ win team before the trade, whereas NY was a lottery team the prior year and a .500 team with Amare before the trade.

W/L does not determine who won a trade. Lets be honest, no one that came from NY really helped DEN push LAL to 7 games last year. Gallo was horrible in that series. McGee & Lawson were DEN's 2 best players in that series.

nickdymez
11-16-2012, 07:00 PM
Its jaw dropping the level of hate that the Knicks get on this forum.

Chronz
11-16-2012, 07:03 PM
Its jaw dropping the level of hate that the Knicks get on this forum.
Moreso than any other team? I dont see it

chicagocubsfan
11-16-2012, 07:04 PM
This makes no sense... by this logic OKC won the Harden trade because they will undoubtedly go further than HOU this year right?

Lets just ignore the fact that OKC was already a much better team than HOU before the trade.

Just like you're ignoring the fact that DEN was already a 50+ win team before the trade, whereas NY was a lottery team the prior year and a .500 team with Amare before the trade.

W/L does not determine who won a trade. Lets be honest, no one that came from NY really helped DEN push LAL to 7 games last year. Gallo was horrible in that series. McGee & Lawson were DEN's 2 best players in that series.
Yeah, but the Nuggets got rid of a cancer in Melo who was earning the max and it freed them up to get some of the players who have helped them.

ManRam
11-16-2012, 07:05 PM
So, "in hindsight" really is code for "the first 2+ weeks of the season"?

nickdymez
11-16-2012, 07:06 PM
Moreso than any other team? I dont see it

I didn't expect you to........

nickdymez
11-16-2012, 07:07 PM
Yeah, but the Nuggets got rid of a cancer in Melo who was earning the max and it freed them up to get some of the players who have helped them.

Melo didnt help lead the Nuggets to the western conference finals?

topdog
11-16-2012, 07:13 PM
This makes no sense... by this logic OKC won the Harden trade because they will undoubtedly go further than HOU this year right?

Lets just ignore the fact that OKC was already a much better team than HOU before the trade.

Just like you're ignoring the fact that DEN was already a 50+ win team before the trade, whereas NY was a lottery team the prior year and a .500 team with Amare before the trade.

W/L does not determine who won a trade. Lets be honest, no one that came from NY really helped DEN push LAL to 7 games last year. Gallo was horrible in that series. McGee & Lawson were DEN's 2 best players in that series.

New York was over .500 when the Melo deal went down. They were at .500 for the rest of that season (28 games) and were 36-30 last year. So, with Anthony, the team has been 6 games over .500 (not yet counting this year).

Denver was over .500 with Melo, but went on to win 17 of their last 24 which was a better winning percentage (70.8%) than with Anthony (64.7%). The next year, Denver finished 38-28 so they have been 14 games over .500 since the trade and better both years.

topdog
11-16-2012, 07:16 PM
Its jaw dropping the level of hate that the Knicks get on this forum.

What "hate?" Objective reasoning is not "hate." Saying, it's not time for hindsight yet because there are still pieces in the balance is not "hate."

nickdymez
11-16-2012, 07:16 PM
New York was over .500 when the Melo deal went down. They were at .500 for the rest of that season (28 games) and were 36-30 last year. So, with Anthony, the team has been 6 games over .500 (not yet counting this year).

Denver was over .500 with Melo, but went on to win 17 of their last 24 which was a better winning percentage (70.8%) than with Anthony (64.7%). The next year, Denver finished 38-28 so they have been 14 games over .500 since the trade and better both years.

You realize that NY traded away pretty much all of their talent to the nuggets right?

nickdymez
11-16-2012, 07:18 PM
What "hate?" Objective reasoning is not "hate." Saying, it's not time for hindsight yet because there are still pieces in the balance is not "hate."

lol@ objective reasoning. I call it hate, you call it what you want. "Objective reasoning" can go both ways, and around here when it comes to the Knicks, it goes south.

RLundi
11-16-2012, 07:22 PM
I hated Jr Smith last season, because he is indeed a chucker, but inefficient he is not. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjr01.html

My apologies, maybe too much generalization. A chucker with average efficiency.

GOON MUSIC
11-16-2012, 07:23 PM
You act like Melo wasn't leaving anyway, Denver had to trade him, Denver still wins

JasonJohnHorn
11-16-2012, 07:29 PM
I mean... Melo was going to leave Denver regardless, so Denver was essentially just trying to get the best deal they could, and they did that. Are the players they got back as good as Melo? No, but that team is in a fair good situation in terms of overall talent on their roster (despite their record). NY gave up a lot of their depth, but they seem to have gotten that back via free agency (their GM raided an old-age home and came away with one of the best benches in the league apparently).

That said... NY may have been able to hang onto all those players they had and sign Melo in free agency that season, in which case they'd be in even better shape now.

I'll say even trade, considering that Denver would have lost Melo (likely to NY in free agency) for nothing.

xxplayerxx23
11-16-2012, 07:29 PM
Mosgov is where?
Chandler has been bad
Gallo has been solid but hurt and hasn't started off good this year
We swaped felton for Billups and now how felton again. It wasn't that much but who cares its over with Knicks look good and Im sure they would of done it over if it was today.

Hitman21
11-16-2012, 07:38 PM
It means the Knicks nor Nuggets won't win or reach the NBA Finals :facepalm:

You're too stupid to insult :facepalm:

WAYNEBO
11-16-2012, 07:39 PM
I don't think WIN-LOSS record is by any means an indication of who won the trade.

1) DEN was already a MUCH better team than NY when the trade was made, so its only logical that they would have a better record right after the trade. NY needed a season to replenish their roster and they did so.

2) Young guys don't stay cheap forever, DEN is capped out now after giving Chandler, Gallo & Lawson extensions. The trio of Gallo, Chandler & Mozzy combine to make $19m now, Melo's salary. I guarantee you DEN would trade that $19m trio for Melo in a heartbeat.

It was still a good trade for both teams then and now. Although TBH, Gallo & Mozzy haven't really developed much if at all like I thought they would. Gallo's shooting 37% since arriving in DEN. And CHandler has completely fallen off the face of the earth.

Keep in mind DEN got Andre Miller indirectly via that trade, and NY was able to get Tyson indirectly and Lin although he left.

Essentially directly/indirectly Denver got 2 under-achieving forwards in Gallo and Wilson Chandler, and a solid back-up PG in Miller (don't even mention Mozy or the other scrubs) for a superstar in Melo and a DPOY in Tyson. Yeah, easy to give this to the Knicks.

Yeah the Nuggs gained flexabilty to make some of their subsequent moves, but as someone earlier mentioned, young players don't stay cheap for long.

KnicksorBust
11-16-2012, 07:42 PM
lol@ objective reasoning. I call it hate, you call it what you want. "Objective reasoning" can go both ways, and around here when it comes to the Knicks, it goes south.

Same can easily be said for the Heat and Lakers. I've seen our fan base do just as good as job inciting these "hate" posts as they have reasonably responding to them.

WAYNEBO
11-16-2012, 07:47 PM
I mean... Melo was going to leave Denver regardless, so Denver was essentially just trying to get the best deal they could, and they did that. Are the players they got back as good as Melo? No, but that team is in a fair good situation in terms of overall talent on their roster (despite their record). NY gave up a lot of their depth, but they seem to have gotten that back via free agency (their GM raided an old-age home and came away with one of the best benches in the league apparently).

That said... NY may have been able to hang onto all those players they had and sign Melo in free agency that season, in which case they'd be in even better shape now.

I'll say even trade, considering that Denver would have lost Melo (likely to NY in free agency) for nothing.

The lack of NBA IQ amazes me... keyboard warriors spouting off with ignorant bliss.

Melo was not sacrificing money to an upcoming CBA renegotiation by going into free agency. He is quoted as saying it himself. Can you blame him??? He was ready to re-up with Denver or sign with the Nets if NY didn't play the trade game w/ the Nuggs. So NO, NYK WAS NOT GOING TO HANG ON TO ITS "ASSETS" AND SIGN MELO ANYWAYS. Fuggin *****.

Captain Moroni
11-16-2012, 07:48 PM
I am way too lazy to look it up, but what are both teams records since the trade?

That wasnt the question.
Anytime you have a superstar player and you trade or lose him, you lose.

nycericanguy
11-16-2012, 08:04 PM
Yeah, but the Nuggets got rid of a cancer in Melo who was earning the max and it freed them up to get some of the players who have helped them.

ok so now you're changing your argument to "Melo is a cancer" :rolleyes:

I'm sure 29 other teams want cancer then.

topdog
11-16-2012, 08:14 PM
You realize that NY traded away pretty much all of their talent to the nuggets right?

Which would seem to count in favor of the Nuggets winning the trade...


lol@ objective reasoning. I call it hate, you call it what you want. "Objective reasoning" can go both ways, and around here when it comes to the Knicks, it goes south.

I call it "stupid" not to recognize someone making a credible argument backed up by evidence versus feelings, opinions, or personal attachments.

Chronz
11-16-2012, 08:17 PM
That wasnt the question.
Anytime you have a superstar player and you trade or lose him, you lose.

What if we dont consider Melo a superstar?

Chronz
11-16-2012, 08:19 PM
I didn't expect you to........
Just as I expected another post devoid of examples/facts.

Its a theme with you, cant much blame you, once I have cornered you never respond again. Remember when you refused to reference the population that uses stats but watches a shitload of games. LOL

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 08:20 PM
That wasnt the question.
Anytime you have a superstar player and you trade or lose him, you lose.

I don't feel Denver lost a superstar...

Chronz
11-16-2012, 08:23 PM
My apologies, maybe too much generalization. A chucker with average efficiency.

His efficiency is really inconsistent. I dont know if there has ever been a player with as many ups and downs as Smith has had. Year to year, even game to game, he can be such a drastically different player in terms of impact. I've always liked him though

Cal827
11-16-2012, 08:24 PM
I'm sorry I thought I just saw Melo and Superstar put together. Hell no!

Dwight Howard is a Superstar
Lebron James is a Superstar
Gram and Xplayer are Superstars

Melo is overrated lol

Punk
11-16-2012, 08:45 PM
If Melo wasn't a superstar, he wouldn't have been courted by the entire league during the trade deadline. If Melo wasn't a star, he wouldn't have made Denver relevant since he got drafted and most certainly, if he wasn't a star, the media all over wouldn't be so hard on him. They wouldn't care if he won or didn't win. If people believe Melo is on the same level of Bosh, Gay, etc...Instead the entire world sees Melo in the same class of Paul, LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Bosh, Howard, etc.

Some people believe the only stars in the league are Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Dirk because of their accomplishments. It really depends on what you think a star is.

Who won the trade? Both teams but NY won long term.

The trade gave Denver: Gallo, Chandler, Felton, Curry, draft picks - Those assets turned into Andre Miller for Felton, Curry for cap-space (re-signing Nene, AA) and absorbing salary for the Brewer/Fernandez trade. Speed it up to 2011, Nene traded for McGee and the NY draft picks & cash traded for Iggy.

The trade gave NY: Melo, Billups - Billups was basically flipped for Tyson Chandler. No Tyson Chandler = No Jeremy Lin...No Jeremy Lin = No Felton or Jason Kidd and no Iman Shumpert or JR Smith (who was signed due to lack of scoring Billups provided).


Both teams benefited. The only true way to tell who won is by seeing who got further with their pieces going forward.

nyKnicks126
11-16-2012, 08:45 PM
the t'wolves..........

Twins Fanatic
11-16-2012, 08:46 PM
Neither, because neither team goes anywhere in the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 08:52 PM
If Melo wasn't a superstar, he wouldn't have been courted by the entire league during the trade deadline. If Melo wasn't a star, he wouldn't have made Denver relevant since he got drafted and most certainly, if he wasn't a star, the media all over wouldn't be so hard on him. They wouldn't care if he won or didn't win. If people believe Melo is on the same level of Bosh, Gay, etc...Instead the entire world sees Melo in the same class of Paul, LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Bosh, Howard, etc.

Some people believe the only stars in the league are Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Dirk because of their accomplishments. It really depends on what you think a star is.

Who won the trade? Both teams but NY won long term.

The trade gave Denver: Gallo, Chandler, Felton, Curry, draft picks - Those assets turned into Andre Miller for Felton, Curry for cap-space (re-signing Nene, AA) and absorbing salary for the Brewer/Fernandez trade. Speed it up to 2011, Nene traded for McGee and the NY draft picks & cash traded for Iggy.

The trade gave NY: Melo, Billups - Billups was basically flipped for Tyson Chandler. No Tyson Chandler = No Jeremy Lin...No Jeremy Lin = No Felton or Jason Kidd and no Iman Shumpert or JR Smith (who was signed due to lack of scoring Billups provided).


Both teams benefited. The only true way to tell who won is by seeing who got further with their pieces going forward.

Superstars drag crappy rosters into the playoffs, and win in the playoffs with a good roster. Melo has done neither. There are only a few "super" stars in the NBA.

nyKnicks126
11-16-2012, 08:55 PM
Superstars drag crappy rosters into the playoffs, and win in the playoffs with a good roster. Melo has done neither. There are only a few "super" stars in the NBA.

Yeah.. Rubio and Love are "Super" stars too.. :facepalm:

Knicks21
11-16-2012, 08:55 PM
Its a shame on Wilson Chandler, dude can really play in this league but hes just not getting the minutes. A Stretch 3 who can easily guard opposition 4's very well.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 08:56 PM
Yeah.. Rubio and Love are "Super" stars too.. :facepalm:

Typical mature response to bring up a posters favorite team's players when you have nothing else. When did I ever say either was a "super" star? That has yet to be proven on both cases.

Either enter the debate rationally, or let the grown ups talk.

GiantsSwaGG
11-16-2012, 08:58 PM
Typical mature response to bring up a posters favorite team's players when you have nothing else. When did I ever say either was a "super" star? That has yet to be proven on both cases.

Either enter the debate rationally, or let the grown ups talk.

Hawkeye put the gloves down. Never knew the Wolves and Patrick Swayze brings out the anger/gangster in you

nyKnicks126
11-16-2012, 08:58 PM
Typical mature response to bring up a posters favorite team's players when you have nothing else. When did I ever say either was a "super" star? That has yet to be proven on both cases.

Either enter the debate rationally, or let the grown ups talk.

So did Love get you anywhere, all you Wolves fan say he is a superstar.. Same deal.. I would rather have Melo then Love that's just my opinion.. not saying it as a homer old man.

RLundi
11-16-2012, 09:02 PM
''People don't change'' lol, really??? maybe you mean a players tendencies dont change, but you'd still be wrong...

Lol if you think JR's gonna suddenly wake up, be this great teammate and buy into team basketball, you need to wake up immediately.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 09:03 PM
Hawkeye put the gloves down. Never knew the Wolves and Patrick Swayze brings out the anger/gangster in you

I just find it immature to go after another person's favorite team for no reason, instead of attempting to have a rational debate. But, its the NBA forum..

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 09:04 PM
So did Love get you anywhere, all you Wolves fan say he is a superstar.. Same deal.. I would rather have Melo then Love that's just my opinion.. not saying it as a homer old man.

when did I say Love was a superstar?

And there is no way I would trade Love for Melo. I am done with this specific topic, why don't you stop deflecting the debate.

Guppyfighter
11-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Nuggets.

nyKnicks126
11-16-2012, 09:07 PM
when did I say Love was a superstar?

And there is no way I would trade Love for Melo. I am done with this specific topic, why don't you stop deflecting the debate.

You are the bait and you will be eaten by Knicks fans. But I don't know if you said it or not.. I would probably have take a good 48 hours to research that.. Since you post like 50 times per day.. But I got better things to do yeah ;)

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 09:09 PM
You are the bait and you will be eaten by Knicks fans. But I don't know if you said it or not.. I would probably have take a good 48 hours to research that.. Since you post like 50 times per day.. But I got better things to do yeah ;)

28 times a day, thank you very much :p

You will grow up one day, no worries.

Knicks21
11-16-2012, 09:11 PM
when did I say Love was a superstar?

And there is no way I would trade Love for Melo. I am done with this specific topic, why don't you stop deflecting the debate.

Touche.

nyKnicks126
11-16-2012, 09:11 PM
28 times a day, thank you very much :p

You will grow up one day, no worries.

Probably just like you right? A proud Mod on an internet sports forum? I want to be just like you man.

Dankster
11-16-2012, 09:12 PM
The Knicks lost all their depth after making that trade with denver. Most Knick fans I spoke to had a pragmatic outlook on things- we knew it would take a while to build a proper team centered around our 2 stars. The early effect from the trade was evident with the Knicks having a very diluted roster for the better part of a year and a half.

1 or 2 injuries to this team basically screwed any chances they had to be competitive in their first year together when they got swept by Boston. I know fans cite injury excuses all the time, but in the case of the Knicks they were so shallow roster-wise that any injury was a major detriment to their success.

Now they've filled out a pretty complete team that's revolved around Stat and Melo and I'm very confident that the pendulum should swing the Knicks' way as far as who got the better end of the trade. It's still early and a better assessment on the matter can be made probably in a year or so. But early signs this year point to the Knicks having a pretty dam good year and continue to get better record wise every year since the Melo trade. I guess time will tell.

Knicks21
11-16-2012, 09:13 PM
You can always find depth in this league, really good players like Melo you cannot.

Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov all are replaceable.

Melo isnt replaceable for the Nuggs.

GiantsSwaGG
11-16-2012, 09:14 PM
I just find it immature to go after another person's favorite team for no reason, instead of attempting to have a rational debate. But, its the NBA forum..

I feel you. As much as I love the Knicks, that's my biggest fear. Melo commitment to defense might I away, Felton might come back to earth, Jr turns to a bonehead player again.

Theirs no doubt this team is better than last years but I stil have my worries. Oh yeah Amare hasn't step foot in the court yet!

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 09:21 PM
Probably just like you right? A proud Mod on an internet sports forum? I want to be just like you man.

baiting a moderator isn't always the smartest approach. Just chill out dude, seriously.

nyKnicks126
11-16-2012, 09:22 PM
baiting a moderator isn't always the smartest approach. Just chill out dude, seriously.

Who is baiting here though? Who told me to grow up? You do not know me. I am done with this argument or whatever you want to call it.

Captain Moroni
11-16-2012, 09:24 PM
What if we dont consider Melo a superstar?

I could honestly care less.

BigBlueCrew
11-16-2012, 09:26 PM
I could honestly care less.

this :clap:

kobe4thewinbang
11-16-2012, 09:53 PM
Denver won. Carmelo is inconsistent and flaky. If you ask me, Carmelo is kind of irrelevant. It seems to me that New York would do just fine without him or Amar'e, as Denver proved last year against the Lakers.

Captain Moroni
11-16-2012, 10:01 PM
So much time is wasted on thiese boards with silly arguments that in realty are baseless and ridiculous.
Fans like their own players, and surprisingly fans loathe other teams players unless they are no threat.

The term "superstar" is open to interpretation. If winning an NBA title is the benchmark, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton, Drexler, CP3, D12, Durrant, Westbrook, and Rose are not superstars. Lebron ws not a superstar until last summer but Dirk was.

Or you are not a superstar until you take your team TO the Finals? So here is a question, if Melo is NOT a superstar, does he turn into one if the Knicks win the EAST? or does he have to win a ring? Was Amare a superstar with the Suns? was Kidd a Superstar wih the Nets?

What one person considers a superstar is strickly their laymans opinion. I will respect the opinions of those who are respectful to other peoples opinions.

Carmelo Anthony surrounded by the same players LeBron, Dirk, and kobe have been surrounded by would have won a ring as well. You cant fault a player because Mike Dantoni was his coach running a team with ZERO defense. Not the players fault. Something tells me if Melo was a Laker most would consider him a Superstar.

Some will argue that Melo has not advanced the Knicks past round 1 in the playoffs. OK,
If we switched melo with lebron, and put him in the EXACT same situation, would the Knicks have beaten Boston 2 years ago and gotten past Miami (With james) last year?
Against Boston, Chauncey Billups ent out in game one, Amare followed. Anthony had a cast of journeyman scrubs like Fields, Douglas, jefferies, Carter, and others. Are you convinced that LeBron could have taken that rag tag team past the Celtics? No way.
Last year could Lebron have led, Bibby, Douglas, Davis, Jefferies, Fields, Jorts, Smith, and Chandler past Miami? won more than one game? Nope.

You cant judge what Melo is until you see him in the same boat that the other superstars are in.

Was Kobe winning anything without Shaq? Pau? Odom, Artest? amongst many other very good players? Nope

lebron winning without the dream team? Nope.

*Superman*
11-16-2012, 10:03 PM
George Karl.

bigbeardaboss
11-16-2012, 10:35 PM
Denver raped NY in that trade. We gutted half our team and all of our prospects for Melo.We overpaid but players like Melo don't come around often so I do this trade every time.

WAYNEBO
11-16-2012, 10:44 PM
Denver raped NY in that trade. We gutted half our team and all of our prospects for Melo.We overpaid but players like Melo don't come around often so I do this trade every time.

Your statement circle-jerks itself. You say Melo is a can't miss once-in-a-lifetime player yet they "raped" NYK to get him? What the F has any of those "assets" done for Denver? Are they winning because of any of them?

Alayla
11-16-2012, 10:44 PM
the Nuggets won it then and still win it now

Alayla
11-16-2012, 10:45 PM
Your statement circle-jerks itself. You say Melo is a can't miss once-in-a-lifetime player yet they "raped" NYK to get him? What the F has any of those "assets" done for Denver? Are they winning because of any of them?

:eyebrow:

kblo247
11-16-2012, 10:45 PM
With a trade for a superstar and that many moving pieces, we probably can't pick a winner overall for a few more years. Need to see what NY does with Melo there, and what Denver does with all the moving parts it assumed in that trade. But as of now, Denver is still in front, win wise imho.

I believe Denver won the deal as long as Amare plays. When Amare is out or if he is moved, NY wins it. Melo fits much better without Amare on the Knicks, in fact they are night and day.

That said I still do believe what I said when I said Melo should be a MVP candidate and would be when I hear Amare went down as it became easier to win games without him. It's the Pau and Andrew effect, they can win in spite of one another but are better a part

305 till I die
11-16-2012, 11:05 PM
Knicks easily, none of the players they traded have proven to be stars. Melo on the other hand is a top 10-15 player.

John Walls Era
11-16-2012, 11:09 PM
Nuggets until Melo makes the 2nd round.

RLundi
11-16-2012, 11:16 PM
I could honestly care less.

Do you mean you COULDN'T care less?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
11-16-2012, 11:48 PM
I could honestly care less.

So you do care?

BklyNyk
11-16-2012, 11:50 PM
Knicks. No homer. Depth is easier to replace than a star.

bigbeardaboss
11-17-2012, 12:03 AM
Your statement circle-jerks itself. You say Melo is a can't miss once-in-a-lifetime player yet they "raped" NYK to get him? What the F has any of those "assets" done for Denver? Are they winning because of any of them?

I never heard the term "circle-jerks" before so I googled it.....based off its definition and your usage of it, I would say you and i watch basketball for two different reasons.

My statement only implied that melo is a talent worth over paying for.

You cant judge a trade solely on how a player plays post trade. You must also consider how they may have played or developed had the stayed on their original team. Unfortunately, we will never know how Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov would have developed had they stayed in NY.

We can however look at Felton's decline after he left NY and his current resurgence after his return to NY and you can see that where you play also makes a difference.

That said, you can now return to your circle-jerking...:speechless:

Chronz
11-17-2012, 12:10 AM
What if we dont consider Melo a superstar?

I could honestly care less.
So why should we care about your theory?

Chronz
11-17-2012, 12:11 AM
I could honestly care less.

this :clap:
Is incorrect

Chronz
11-17-2012, 12:15 AM
So much time is wasted on thiese boards with silly arguments that in realty are baseless and ridiculous.
Fans like their own players, and surprisingly fans loathe other teams players unless they are no threat.

The term "superstar" is open to interpretation. If winning an NBA title is the benchmark, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton, Drexler, CP3, D12, Durrant, Westbrook, and Rose are not superstars. Lebron ws not a superstar until last summer but Dirk was.

Or you are not a superstar until you take your team TO the Finals? So here is a question, if Melo is NOT a superstar, does he turn into one if the Knicks win the EAST? or does he have to win a ring? Was Amare a superstar with the Suns? was Kidd a Superstar wih the Nets?

What one person considers a superstar is strickly their laymans opinion. I will respect the opinions of those who are respectful to other peoples opinions.

Carmelo Anthony surrounded by the same players LeBron, Dirk, and kobe have been surrounded by would have won a ring as well. You cant fault a player because Mike Dantoni was his coach running a team with ZERO defense. Not the players fault. Something tells me if Melo was a Laker most would consider him a Superstar.

Some will argue that Melo has not advanced the Knicks past round 1 in the playoffs. OK,
If we switched melo with lebron, and put him in the EXACT same situation, would the Knicks have beaten Boston 2 years ago and gotten past Miami (With james) last year?
Against Boston, Chauncey Billups ent out in game one, Amare followed. Anthony had a cast of journeyman scrubs like Fields, Douglas, jefferies, Carter, and others. Are you convinced that LeBron could have taken that rag tag team past the Celtics? No way.
Last year could Lebron have led, Bibby, Douglas, Davis, Jefferies, Fields, Jorts, Smith, and Chandler past Miami? won more than one game? Nope.

You cant judge what Melo is until you see him in the same boat that the other superstars are in.

Was Kobe winning anything without Shaq? Pau? Odom, Artest? amongst many other very good players? Nope

lebron winning without the dream team? Nope.
But your not respecting other opinions, you just said you dont care (albeit with a typo).

And why would anyone define the criteria by blindly looking at chips/finals appearances?

And what proof do you have that people hate opposing players? I know you may not fit the description but some of us are fans of the NBA BEFORE our club

SHONIE
11-17-2012, 01:02 AM
to be fair to all you grammar nazis... (http://grammarist.com/usage/could-care-less/)

mizzacNYC
11-17-2012, 01:23 AM
Now that the Knicks got back felton, they have made out great with that trade....

topdog
11-17-2012, 01:23 AM
to be fair to all you grammar nazis... (http://grammarist.com/usage/could-care-less/)

Just because so many people dilute the English language does not mean we should let them. It's a simple matter of: does what you're saying make sense?