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View Full Version : Aside from MVP and DPOY which award means the most to a players career?



Ebbs
11-15-2012, 04:52 PM
So basically Most Improved Player, 6th man of the year, or Rookie of the year?

Which one is most indicative of a players high skill set and which looks best on a players resume when all is said and done?

Last 3 MIP'S:
Ryan Anderson
Kevin Love
Aaron Brooks

Last 3 6th men:
James Harden
Lamar Odom
Jamal Crawford

Last 3 ROY's:
Kyrie Irving
Blake Griffin
Tyreke Evans

alexander_37
11-15-2012, 05:24 PM
Usually ROY is a one man race. Probably 6th man.

Hawkeye15
11-15-2012, 05:36 PM
meaningful to a player? Probably ROY. You are young, trying to prove you belong, and winning that probably brings more emotion then the other awards.

JordansBulls
11-15-2012, 05:40 PM
ROY because it shows how much potential you have.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/roy.html

Just look at the list here.


Season Lg Player Age Tm
2011-12 NBA Kyrie Irving*(V) 19 CLE
2010-11 NBA Blake Griffin*(V) 21 LAC
2009-10 NBA Tyreke Evans*(V) 20 SAC
2008-09 NBA Derrick Rose*(V) 20 CHI
2007-08 NBA Kevin Durant*(V) 19 SEA
2006-07 NBA Brandon Roy*(V) 22 POR
2005-06 NBA Chris Paul*(V) 20 NOK
2004-05 NBA Emeka Okafor*(V) 22 CHA
2003-04 NBA LeBron James*(V) 19 CLE
2002-03 NBA Amare Stoudemire*(V) 20 PHO
2001-02 NBA Pau Gasol*(V) 21 MEM
2000-01 NBA Mike Miller*(V) 20 ORL
1999-00 NBA Steve Francis*(V) 22 HOU
1999-00 NBA Elton Brand*(V) 20 CHI
1998-99 NBA Vince Carter*(V) 22 TOR
1997-98 NBA Tim Duncan*(V) 21 SAS
1996-97 NBA Allen Iverson*(V) 21 PHI
1995-96 NBA Damon Stoudamire*(V) 22 TOR
1994-95 NBA Jason Kidd*(V) 21 DAL
1994-95 NBA Grant Hill*(V) 22 DET
1993-94 NBA Chris Webber*(V) 20 GSW
1992-93 NBA Shaquille O'Neal*(V) 20 ORL
1991-92 NBA Larry Johnson*(V) 22 CHH
1990-91 NBA Derrick Coleman*(V) 23 NJN
1989-90 NBA David Robinson*(V) 24 SAS
1988-89 NBA Mitch Richmond*(V) 23 GSW
1987-88 NBA Mark Jackson*(V) 22 NYK
1986-87 NBA Chuck Person*(V) 22 IND
1985-86 NBA Patrick Ewing*(V) 23 NYK
1984-85 NBA Michael Jordan*(V) 21 CHI
1983-84 NBA Ralph Sampson*(V) 23 HOU
1982-83 NBA Terry Cummings 21 SDC
1981-82 NBA Buck Williams 21 NJN
1980-81 NBA Darrell Griffith 22 UTA
1979-80 NBA Larry Bird 23 BOS
1978-79 NBA Phil Ford 22 KCK
1977-78 NBA Walter Davis 23 PHO
1976-77 NBA Adrian Dantley 20 BUF
1975-76 NBA Alvan Adams 21 PHO
1974-75 NBA Jamaal Wilkes 21 GSW
1973-74 NBA Ernie DiGregorio 23 BUF
1972-73 NBA Bob McAdoo 21 BUF
1971-72 NBA Sidney Wicks 22 POR
1970-71 NBA Geoff Petrie 22 POR
1970-71 NBA Dave Cowens 22 BOS
1969-70 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 22 MIL
1968-69 NBA Wes Unseld 22 BAL
1967-68 NBA Earl Monroe 23 BAL
1966-67 NBA Dave Bing 23 DET
1965-66 NBA Rick Barry 21 SFW
1964-65 NBA Willis Reed 22 NYK
1963-64 NBA Jerry Lucas 23 CIN
1962-63 NBA Terry Dischinger 22 CHZ
1961-62 NBA Walt Bellamy 22 CHP
1960-61 NBA Oscar Robertson 22 CIN
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain 23 PHW
1958-59 NBA Elgin Baylor 24 MNL
1957-58 NBA Woody Sauldsberry 23 PHW
1956-57 NBA Tom Heinsohn 22 BOS
1955-56 NBA Maurice Stokes 22 ROC
1954-55 NBA Bob Pettit 22 MLH
1953-54 NBA Ray Felix 23 BLB
1952-53 NBA Monk Meineke 22 FTW

Daunter
11-15-2012, 05:40 PM
I would say Most Improved because it means you took your game to the next level.

barreleffact
11-15-2012, 05:41 PM
ROY. HOF'ers are more likely to have a ROY than either of the other 2. MIP means you either sucked before or were uncharacteristically improved. 6th man means you arent an elite playe. Crawford- scorer only, Odom borderline retirement, Harden- fringe all-star, but he is the exception more so than the standard

FraziersKnicks
11-15-2012, 05:41 PM
Roy

b@llhog24
11-15-2012, 05:44 PM
ROY. Tends to be more indicative of a HOF career in comparison to 6MOY/MI.

Bishnoff
11-15-2012, 05:56 PM
ROY. HOF'ers are more likely to have a ROY than either of the other 2. MIP means you either sucked before or were uncharacteristically improved. 6th man means you arent an elite playe. Crawford- scorer only, Odom borderline retirement, Harden- fringe all-star, but he is the exception more so than the standard

Bolded.

StarvingKnick22
11-15-2012, 06:00 PM
ROY tells who will the next future star will be. Well, usually.

kyubi256
11-15-2012, 06:21 PM
I'd say Sixth Man. Rookie of the Year is too specific to just rookies so it doesn't take into account people who can get much better the more they play and also if they change systems.

Most improved is a nice one but it means that you had to be "not so good." That's great if you are looking at guys who change systems. But I think that it does not tell the whole story for guys who have been consistently good but finally took the step to stardom. Especially if they are overshadowed by guys who are bad/injured then great.

I'd say the best would be 6th man. Because it shows how instrumental you are to your teams success. Most teams need a good 6th man because the starters can't play 48 minutes for 82 games. So the 6th man is there to add scoring and keep the differential high so leads are not blown.

mngopher35
11-15-2012, 06:32 PM
This is kind of a weird question. The only award that an elite player can really get is ROY. Most improved means at one point in time you weren't considered that great, and 6th man means your coming off the bench (good players can be in these spots but not Elite top 10) players. So id say any player who wants to be considered a great or the best would want ROY over the others.

kyubi256
11-15-2012, 06:38 PM
^Manu is a 6th man but he is a great player. There were discussions of how the Heat or Celtics should run their big 3. It is possible to have a great player come off the bench

Ebbs
11-15-2012, 06:42 PM
A lot of real good players are 6th men because they need that offensive spark off the bench. I think Roy can be misleading because a lot of rookies end up being the best in their class despite mediocre rookie seasons; whether that's due to injury, role on the team, etc. . . So I would personally choose MIP. Although a lot of players never do much after this point stepping your game up so much from one season to the next that the league considers you to be most improved is huge.

KnickaBocka.44
11-15-2012, 06:52 PM
Of the choices listed I would say ROY.

I think if a player gets named to any of the All-NBA teams that would be more significant though.

mvb815
11-15-2012, 06:52 PM
all NBA teams mean a lot, but out of your choices, i'd say its pretty close between ROY and 6th man

Ebbs
11-15-2012, 06:59 PM
Would an All NBA 3rd team be more important than the NBA's 3 awards I mentioned to you guys than?

Baller1
11-15-2012, 07:10 PM
Rookie of the Year for sure.

Baller1
11-15-2012, 07:11 PM
Would an All NBA 3rd team be more important than the NBA's 3 awards I mentioned to you guys than?

I would say yes... That basically guarantees that you're looked at as a top 5 player at your position.

JasonJohnHorn
11-15-2012, 07:18 PM
Usually, the winner of the ROY, is an eventual HOFer.... not always, but often enough. The MIP award, I don't know any HOFers who won it, and I think McHale and Bill Walton are the only 6th man winners who are in the HOF. James Harden might be able to add himself to the list.

I mean, guys like Granger, Love and McGrady won MIP and they may end up in the HOF.

ROY mean you were playing at a high level as soon as you came in the league. MIP means you weren't, and SMOY means you weren't even good enough to start.

mrblisterdundee
11-15-2012, 07:58 PM
Finals MVP is the most important award to a player's career. Only one player in the history of the NBA has won it without winning a championship.

3RDASYSTEM
11-15-2012, 07:58 PM
ROY. HOF'ers are more likely to have a ROY than either of the other 2. MIP means you either sucked before or were uncharacteristically improved. 6th man means you arent an elite playe. Crawford- scorer only, Odom borderline retirement, Harden- fringe all-star, but he is the exception more so than the standard

Finally i may can get this ? answered from the psd world, its like you guys finally backed your way into answering it for me also...thanx

So what do you call a player like KOBE who was a backup guard when he entered league as lottery pick?

his fiens on here told me he started as 6th man GINOBILI to yrs later allworld JORDAN level,this from they mouth, thats the biggest MIP jump ever right?


you said MIP means you either sucked before and just drastically improved and you also said 6th man means you arent elite right?

now thats how i ranked KOBE on here and everybody panties got in a bunch,i called his career out from day1,rookie yr and everybody started making up the hes a 'teen' **** or he went to a stacked squad(at his request) and so on and on, and im thinking why in the hell did he enter the NBA as a 'teen' then? its like he went to college in NBA so i had to wait til yr4(2000) to rank him as individual player, sorry i ranked him in rookieallstargame,he dropped 30pts ..scorer from day1 so i dont know why people are shocked at him scoring at 34yrs of age if he was doing it at 18 in NBA, he was doing it from a backupguard position in beginning, nothing wrong with that.its just he was so weak versioned JORDANlike, like i understand the biz side of NBA so its really not my debate to win when $$$ is being made and spent

i said he was a backup(6thman) then yrs later he was allworldJORDAN but didnt win a 6thman award or MIP award, So what happen? is that hype or was KOBE too good to garner those awards( he was wrongly put in as backupguard right?)

but then i come on here to read this and just laugh even more harder when i saw the 6thman and MIP comments you made, i look at it like that for everyplayer, in any sport, its why i always find the 'hater' and 'gibberish' comments towards me from LAKERfiens to be amusing because im speaking on something that actually happened in KOBE's career, i dont take a certain part, i start from inception, like we all should when judging a player, not a decade or best 4-5yr stretch, entire body of work to see just how 'great' a players game/impact is

like i said you are who you are from day1, just look at that ROY list posted of past winners

in any sports if you're a backup your first 3yrs and then start your 4th yr what do you call that? a 6thman(backup) turned starter right?

mightybosstone
11-15-2012, 08:08 PM
If Finals MVP was an option, I would easily pick that over the three available options. But if it's only the three mentioned by Ebbs, I'd say it's a dead heat to all three based on the context of the award. For example... Some guys peak early in their careers, so winning a RoY is key to cement how talented they were early on. Some guys peak at a very specific time and take their game to the next level, so sometimes MIP is most important.

And 6th MOY is an interesting award, because I think it benefits players' careers in multiple ways. For guys like Manu Ginobili, Jason Terry and Lamar Odom, it cements that those guys were among the best at what they did, providing energy and scoring off the bench as key players of championship teams. For guys like James Harden and Kevin McHale, it's almost like a RoY award, cementing their talent earlier in their careers before being designated a starter. And for guys like Bill Walton, John Starks and Danny Manning, it proves that those guys adjusted their games when they got older and could still be great contributors even if they don't provide starting minutes.

So, you could make an argument that any three of those awards is most valuable depending on the player and his career.

mightybosstone
11-15-2012, 08:16 PM
Usually, the winner of the ROY, is an eventual HOFer.... not always, but often enough. The MIP award, I don't know any HOFers who won it, and I think McHale and Bill Walton are the only 6th man winners who are in the HOF. James Harden might be able to add himself to the list.
This is an interesting argument, but not always accurate. Also, you're assuming that we're talking about the careers of all-time greats, but what if we're not? What if we're just comparing really good players from an era?

For example.... Which is more valuable: Steve Francis' ROY award or Jason Terry's SMOY award? You could argue Francis, but I would give the nod to Terry, who thrived as a 6th man on one of the best teams of the 2000s. That 6th man role gave him identity as a player and gave his career significance. Do you think anyone gives a crap about Francis ROY award in the long run?


SMOY means you weren't even good enough to start.
And this is just wildly inaccurate. Are you telling me that Manu, Terry and Odom aren't talented enough to be NBA starters? What about McHale, Walton and Harden? Like I said in my previous posts, SMOY can mean very different things to each player that receives it, but it hardly ever means that player wasn't talented enough to ever start in the league.

Hawkeye15
11-15-2012, 08:27 PM
Finally i may can get this ? answered from the psd world, its like you guys finally backed your way into answering it for me also...thanx

So what do you call a player like KOBE who was a backup guard when he entered league as lottery pick?

his fiens on here told me he started as 6th man GINOBILI to yrs later allworld JORDAN level,this from they mouth, thats the biggest MIP jump ever right?


you said MIP means you either sucked before and just drastically improved and you also said 6th man means you arent elite right?

now thats how i ranked KOBE on here and everybody panties got in a bunch,i called his career out from day1,rookie yr and everybody started making up the hes a 'teen' **** or he went to a stacked squad(at his request) and so on and on, and im thinking why in the hell did he enter the NBA as a 'teen' then? its like he went to college in NBA so i had to wait til yr4(2000) to rank him as individual player, sorry i ranked him in rookieallstargame,he dropped 30pts ..scorer from day1 so i dont know why people are shocked at him scoring at 34yrs of age if he was doing it at 18 in NBA, he was doing it from a backupguard position in beginning, nothing wrong with that.its just he was so weak versioned JORDANlike, like i understand the biz side of NBA so its really not my debate to win when $$$ is being made and spent

i said he was a backup(6thman) then yrs later he was allworldJORDAN but didnt win a 6thman award or MIP award, So what happen? is that hype or was KOBE too good to garner those awards( he was wrongly put in as backupguard right?)

but then i come on here to read this and just laugh even more harder when i saw the 6thman and MIP comments you made, i look at it like that for everyplayer, in any sport, its why i always find the 'hater' and 'gibberish' comments towards me from LAKERfiens to be amusing because im speaking on something that actually happened in KOBE's career, i dont take a certain part, i start from inception, like we all should when judging a player, not a decade or best 4-5yr stretch, entire body of work to see just how 'great' a players game/impact is

like i said you are who you are from day1, just look at that ROY list posted of past winners

in any sports if you're a backup your first 3yrs and then start your 4th yr what do you call that? a 6thman(backup) turned starter right?

why is literally every post you make about Kobe?

Hawkeye15
11-15-2012, 08:29 PM
If Finals MVP was an option, I would easily pick that over the three available options. But if it's only the three mentioned by Ebbs, I'd say it's a dead heat to all three based on the context of the award. For example... Some guys peak early in their careers, so winning a RoY is key to cement how talented they were early on. Some guys peak at a very specific time and take their game to the next level, so sometimes MIP is most important.

And 6th MOY is an interesting award, because I think it benefits players' careers in multiple ways. For guys like Manu Ginobili, Jason Terry and Lamar Odom, it cements that those guys were among the best at what they did, providing energy and scoring off the bench as key players of championship teams. For guys like James Harden and Kevin McHale, it's almost like a RoY award, cementing their talent earlier in their careers before being designated a starter. And for guys like Bill Walton, John Starks and Danny Manning, it proves that those guys adjusted their games when they got older and could still be great contributors even if they don't provide starting minutes.

So, you could make an argument that any three of those awards is most valuable depending on the player and his career.

Putting emotion aside (what it would mean to a player), the thing is, which one of these awards is generally proven to go to players who have great careers? Its for sure ROY.

blastmasta26
11-15-2012, 08:34 PM
It's easily ROY. Rookies of the year frequently go on to achieve stardom, the same doesn't go for MIPs and 6th men. Of course there are exceptions, but they prove the point further. The exceptions are the only instances in which MIPs and 6th men turn out to be elite players, while that is closer to the norm with ROYs.

Andrew32
11-15-2012, 08:57 PM
Roy

Andrew32
11-15-2012, 09:01 PM
all NBA teams mean a lot.

I don't think so.
All-NBA teams are media based awards which mean they are subject to the inherent bias that exists in the media.

They are often given to the incorrect player and the awards value is heavily based upon the competition that exists at each position during said year.

For example a not so good player could make an All-NBA team only because the position was very weak that year.

I take most media based awards (All-NBA / MVP) with a grain of salt.

mightybosstone
11-15-2012, 09:06 PM
Putting emotion aside (what it would mean to a player), the thing is, which one of these awards is generally proven to go to players who have great careers? Its for sure ROY.

But that's only half the question. Ebbs posted two parts to this question. The first one was which award is more indicative of a player's talent. Because of what you just mentioned, I'd give ROY a slight edge over SMOY. However the second portion of the question is which means more when you look a player's resume when it's all said and done. That's the portion of the question I was addressing, and I think you could make an argument for all three under certain circumstances.

Hawkeye15
11-15-2012, 09:29 PM
But that's only half the question. Ebbs posted two parts to this question. The first one was which award is more indicative of a player's talent. Because of what you just mentioned, I'd give ROY a slight edge over SMOY. However the second portion of the question is which means more when you look a player's resume when it's all said and done. That's the portion of the question I was addressing, and I think you could make an argument for all three under certain circumstances.

6th man of the year has produced nowhere near the amount of HOF careers ROY has.

I understand the second part of your post completely, and I can dig that man.

bigbeardaboss
11-16-2012, 07:09 AM
Roy

3RDASYSTEM
11-19-2012, 07:08 PM
why is literally every post you make about Kobe?



At least you can comprehend and dont act like you cant understand wat im typing like these other folks on here

why do you say KOBE has been a top player for 15yrs when he was a backup for basically 4yrs and hes just starting his 17th season?

i guess i mention him because hes like the posterboy for being overranked(along with JETER/BRADY)...so it has to work hand in hand right if you're seeing me post alot about KOBE right? it has to be alot of poppycock topics right?

and how come he didnt win 6thman of yr if he was a 'top 3' player for 15yrs or whatever dumb **** you said as the backupguard?

5rings dont carry that much weight for a backup turned starter

guess reading is your strength and not math

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-19-2012, 07:10 PM
At least you can comprehend and dont act like you cant understand wat im typing like these other folks on here

why do you say KOBE has been a top player for 15yrs when he was a backup for basically 4yrs and hes just starting his 17th season?

i guess i mention him because hes like the posterboy for being overranked(along with JETER/BRADY)...so it has to work hand in hand right if you're seeing me post alot about KOBE right? it has to be alot of poppycock topics right?

and how come he didnt win 6thman of yr if he was a 'top 3' player for 15yrs or whatever dumb **** you said as the backupguard?

5rings dont carry that much weight for a backup turned starter

guess reading is your strength and not math


Agree, these Kobe FIENS will never understand the fact that he began his career as a backup singer to Eddie Jones. He will be the same player as he was throughout and out.

THE MTL
11-19-2012, 07:20 PM
I say ROY. Those guys are usually better.

MIP- I disregard this award because it is for guys who improved dramatically and exceeded relatively low exceptions.

6th- This is exactly what you are....a sixth man. Which is a really important position in the NBA, however it still doesn't mean you are a star

3RDASYSTEM
11-19-2012, 07:20 PM
why is literally every post you make about Kobe?

answer the ? HAWK,then ask me a ?

and i dont think you're a KOBEfien, so why does it matter/bother you who i speak on, as long as its on topic right?

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-19-2012, 07:22 PM
3RDASYSTEM is always point on and so eloquent in his posts. :drool:

3RDASYSTEM
11-19-2012, 07:27 PM
Agree, these Kobe FIENS will never understand the fact that he began his career as a backup singer to Eddie Jones. He will be the same player as he was throughout and out.

Exactly

WEST must have been smoking the best crack ever to proclaim KOBE's workout so mindblowing and how he destroyed COOPER 1 on 1(according to you fiens), and then only to sit him for yrs behind the surefire 1st ballot HOF'er .....JONES/EXEL/SCOTT(once again,according to you fiens), BYRON SCOTT?

How in the world is JONES better than KOBE at any point in they career? or am i overranking JONES also? i mean underranking?

JONES was the same player from day1

jus like SHAQ was
like DURANT was
like MAGIC was
like WILT was
like BIRD was
like IVERSON was
like BRON was
like MELO was
like JORDAN was
like ZEKE was
should i go on

i get it KOBE wasnt who he was from day1`he was a backup singer(once again told to me by the fiens)

greatest 'sidekick' ever, sorry PIPP
he called himself that according to his HOF coach...PJAX

Did you catch that 'statement' from the ZEN since all i do is spit hate/gibberish ****?

or maybe now ZEN is a 'hater'?

all i said is from day1 he was a scorer/backupguard

now take your head out his *** along with the 5ring bs talk and the alldef teams, and look at his resume and its accomplishments...scoring right? 81pts, 62thru 3qtrs,50pt streak,2scoring titles,more scoring,top5 alltime scoring list

so how in the **** am i a KOBE hater? i said exactly what he was from day1, it didnt take me til 2006 to recognize that he was a 'scorer'..he dropped 30+ that rookie game...circa 1996-97

Minimal
11-19-2012, 07:27 PM
First I thought 6th man is more important, but then I thought a bit more and ended up with ROY.
6th man a proves that you were the best guy out of all guys who weren't starting in the teams. In other words they weren't that good to be starting in first place (not all of them ofc).
ROY proves that the player has a big potential and might end up a hall of famer.

In other words 6th man award is for great players. ROY is award for the best players.

3RDASYSTEM
11-19-2012, 07:32 PM
3RDASYSTEM is always point on and so eloquent in his posts. :drool:

Your KOBEsystem defense team is always on point to defend the backupguardturnedstarter since your franchise did draft the 'kid'


mommy(lakerfiens) loves her birth(draft)child

from backup superstar role allway to the starter superstar role, gotta love LA/NY markets