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AI
11-14-2012, 01:10 PM
Torii to #Tigers. Two-year agreement, pending physical.

Rosenthal

keymax
11-14-2012, 01:17 PM
So that means Boesch is as good as gone and Young heads to FA...

I don't like Hunter, he has been quite overrated his entire career. While he isn't great at the plate and has certainly declined he should be a drastic improvement over the pathetic Delmon Young in the field.

So this is a good move for the Tigers if they don't pay him crazy money.

VRP723
11-14-2012, 01:19 PM
13 per. A little steep.

sexicano31
11-14-2012, 01:19 PM
Anythings better than Delmon Young

AI
11-14-2012, 01:20 PM
Update:


Bob Nightengale @BNightengale
Hunter will get $26 million

Farsight
11-14-2012, 01:20 PM
So that means Boesch is as good as gone and Young heads to FA...

I don't like Hunter, he has been quite overrated his entire career. While he isn't great at the plate and has certainly declined he should be a drastic improvement over the pathetic Delmon Young in the field. Complete agree. This is an improvement in leftfield for them. Boesch is a serviceable player, but he loses so much value due to his horrible defense. I dont want to speculate if its a good signing or not as we dont know the contract figures. However, the Tigers did fulfill a need

rcs15
11-14-2012, 01:20 PM
His power is diminishing pretty fast. Gonna be 38 as well. don't like him in Detroit.

sexicano31
11-14-2012, 01:21 PM
13 per. A little steep.

Damn. He had a solid season, but he cant play CF anymore and doesnt really put up great numbers for a COF

RedHeadsRule
11-14-2012, 01:21 PM
Makes sense. Good place for Hunter to go as he tries to get a ring before he retires, and they could use some corner outfield help.

Ty Fast
11-14-2012, 01:26 PM
tigers adding hunter and v-mart to a team that made the world series should make them really tough to beat

King Rick
11-14-2012, 01:26 PM
Good to see Hunter getting his shot at a ring, I could see this being his final deal if the Tigers win a WS in those 2 years.

Pinstripe pride
11-14-2012, 01:26 PM
Anythings better than Delmon Young

interesting note about delmon young, he had the game winning hit in all 4 ALCS games this year

DieHardColtsfan
11-14-2012, 01:32 PM
Fully guaranteed? If yes, that’s steep IMO.

keymax
11-14-2012, 01:36 PM
Fully guaranteed? If yes, thatís steep IMO.

Its just a two year deal. They can't worry about payroll flexibility. Their championship window is 2-3 years IMO.

Bo Sox Fan
11-14-2012, 01:36 PM
Delmon Young was the Tigers most productive hitter this past postseason, even better than Miggy and Prince.

ahoda
11-14-2012, 01:38 PM
interesting note about delmon young, he had the game winning hit in all 4 ALCS games this year

Sounds like Young should be a Yankee then.

bagwell368
11-14-2012, 01:39 PM
Too much money. Good player, tough hitters parks out there.

ahoda
11-14-2012, 01:40 PM
Good pickup for the Tigers. He plays very good defense and he should be able to produce for the next 2 years. I would have preferred a $9-10 mill deal for 1 year, but I can't complain. His addition definately improves the team overall and the clubhouse lacked a true leader in 2012 with V-Mart gone.

VRP723
11-14-2012, 01:41 PM
Jackson-Hunter-Miggy-Prince-VMart-Peralta-Avila is really good.

beldugo
11-14-2012, 01:55 PM
Torii Hunter BABIP 2012: .389
Torii Hunter BABIP career: .307

His numbers will look more like his 2011 than his 2012. Don't like the signing for the Tigers

cubs1st
11-14-2012, 01:58 PM
Delmon Young was the Tigers most productive hitter this past postseason, even better than Miggy and Prince.

Then go ahead and sign him. He's not very good.

ahoda
11-14-2012, 02:01 PM
Torii Hunter BABIP 2012: .389
Torii Hunter BABIP career: .307

His numbers will look more like his 2011 than his 2012. Don't like the signing for the Tigers

His .307 career mark is still a lot higher then what our OF gave us in 2012 btw. With the likes of Boesch, Raburn, Kelley, Young, and Berry the Tigers still made the WS.

Zander 77
11-14-2012, 02:04 PM
His .307 career mark is still a lot higher then what our OF gave us in 2012 btw. With the likes of Boesch, Raburn, Kelley, Young, and Berry the Tigers still made the WS.

Not to mention he can only help Jackson become an even better center fielder.

StriveGreatness
11-14-2012, 02:04 PM
Who cares if they overpaid? Money isn't a problem for Illitch...

And this deal will be better than the deals that Hamilton, Swisher, Upton etc get. Slight overpay but it's only 2 seasons. Hunter probably won't be as good with the bat as he was in 2012 but he is a huge improvement over what we were running out there last season and he plays good defense.

Rush
11-14-2012, 02:12 PM
Delmon Young was the Tigers most productive hitter this past postseason, even better than Miggy and Prince.

So?

beldugo
11-14-2012, 02:17 PM
His .307 career mark is still a lot higher then what our OF gave us in 2012 btw. With the likes of Boesch, Raburn, Kelley, Young, and Berry the Tigers still made the WS.

Yes he is an imrpovement over those guys but 13 M for a guy that will probably be close to this line .271/.336/.428 seems like a bad deal for me, he will play good defense in LF. Brenan Boesch had a bad year but i think he is capable of producing this line .260/.320/.420 is not than different from Hunter. If the signing was for 7-9 M it would have been a good deal imo.

todu82
11-14-2012, 02:18 PM
I like Hunter and wanted him in Boston but man that's an expensive contract for him.

StriveGreatness
11-14-2012, 02:22 PM
Yes he is an imrpovement over those guys but 13 M for a guy that will probably be close to this line .271/.336/.428 seems like a bad deal for me, he will play good defense in LF. Brenan Boesch had a bad year but i think he is capable of producing this line .260/.320/.420 is not than different from Hunter. If the signing was for 7-9 M it would have been a good deal imo.

You're kidding about Boesch right? Please tell me you're kidding.

I'll overpay in dollars if it means a 2 year deal as opposed to overpaying a player on a 4-5 year deal...

We just needed a stop gap for a couple of seasons until Castellanos is ready. (unless he's traded which is always possible with Dombrowski) Hunter should do just fine..

giants73756
11-14-2012, 02:28 PM
Delmon Young was the Tigers most productive hitter this past postseason, even better than Miggy and Prince.

It was 13 games...

beldugo
11-14-2012, 02:30 PM
You're kidding about Boesch right? Please tell me you're kidding.

I'll overpay in dollars if it means a 2 year deal as opposed to overpaying a player on a 4-5 year deal...

We just needed a stop gap for a couple of seasons until Castellanos is ready. (unless he's traded which is always possible with Dombrowski) Hunter should do just fine..

No, i'm not kidding, he has a career line of .259/.315/.414 an that was with an awful 2012, in fact Bill James project him to have a .266/.320/.430 line.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 02:40 PM
That's a lot for him, but it's better than Delmon Young.


Surprised he signed so quickly

Same deal that Beltran got last year, and I think Beltran is the better player.

ahoda
11-14-2012, 02:48 PM
That's a lot for him, but it's better than Delmon Young.


Surprised he signed so quickly

Same deal that Beltran got last year, and I think Beltran is the better player.

Beltran is also a huge injury risk and Hunter plays a better OF.

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 02:50 PM
Damn good deal for both sides. They'll be happy if he's half of his 2012 season (~2.7 WAR) and ecstatic if he can replicate it.

Excellent fit...the Tigers after Jackson had just terrible OF talent. If Boesch could bounce back that OF is way less irritatingly bad than it was last year when Jackson was the only one who belonged on a championship caliber club.

GA16Angels
11-14-2012, 02:52 PM
Good for Torii. That's a steep price the Tigers are paying, only 5 MIL less than the average annual salary the Angels were paying him.

HowFit
11-14-2012, 03:01 PM
That's a lot for him, but it's better than Delmon Young.


Surprised he signed so quickly

Same deal that Beltran got last year, and I think Beltran is the better player.

Tigers offered him $26 million for 2 years, that's why he signed so quickly LOL

raidersrock99
11-14-2012, 03:04 PM
thanks detroit for bumping up pagans price now he will want 17 per

dodgersuck
11-14-2012, 03:05 PM
I like this move for Detroit but they really need bullpen. If they don't address the back end of their pen I don't see them improving over last year.

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 03:09 PM
Good for Torii. That's a steep price the Tigers are paying, only 5 MIL less than the average annual salary the Angels were paying him.

So then it's not that steep?

Serious question: Who is the last FA playing a significant role for a team that was deemed to not be playing at a "steep price?"

Going by the numbers Mark Shapiro gave in this October 2012 interview:

http://www.obstructedview.net/aside/mark-shapiro-one-win-in-free-agency-is-9-million.html

They're basically paying for not even 1.5 wins from a guy who just put up almost 5.5 WAR...

Pinstripe pride
11-14-2012, 03:10 PM
Sounds like Young should be a Yankee then.

they will offer him a 10 year deal probally

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 03:10 PM
Is Castellanos going to play left this year?

StriveGreatness
11-14-2012, 03:12 PM
Is Castellanos going to play left this year?

Dirks is probably the LF at the moment but could change if we sign someone or trade for someone. Castallanos isn't ready but Tigers have a history of rushing guys so I guess it's possible.

GA16Angels
11-14-2012, 03:14 PM
So then it's not that steep?

Serious question: Who is the last FA playing a significant role for a team that was deemed to not be playing at a "steep price?"

Going by the numbers Mark Shapiro gave in this October 2012 interview:

http://www.obstructedview.net/aside/mark-shapiro-one-win-in-free-agency-is-9-million.html

They're basically paying for not even 1.5 wins from a guy who just put up almost 5.5 WAR...

I consider 26 MIL a lot for a 37 year old outfielder.

ahoda
11-14-2012, 03:15 PM
Is Castellanos going to play left this year?

Doubtful. Garcia is already on the 40 man and plays a much better defense with a better arm. Nick needs to learn plate discipline and waiting on his pitch.

SACNYY
11-14-2012, 03:15 PM
I'm disappointed. I wanted him in NY replacing Swisher.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 03:15 PM
Last year right fielders made 202 million, and produced 60 WARP

3.3 million per WARP

for 26 million, Hunter need to hit close to 8 WAR over the next 2 seasons to earn the contract. Last year, in a breakout season, Hunter produced a 3.28 WARP, and was worth about 10.8 million.

It might be a slight overpay in annual value, but having him for 2 years, and he fills a direct need for the Tigers and he is great clubhouse guy. And signing him this early in the off-season really helps set them for next year early.


(the above numbers are based on baseball prospectus WARP)

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 03:21 PM
Hmm...Jeffy's simple WAR/dollar analysis of one position in the game or a direct quote from one of the best and brightest front office men in the league quoting from his team of people who's whole livelihood comes from studying and calculating this stuff? Really tough choice here.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 03:21 PM
Last year right fielders made 202 million, and produced 60 WARP

3.3 million per WARP

for 26 million, Hunter need to hit close to 8 WAR over the next 2 seasons to earn the contract. Last year, in a breakout season, Hunter produced a 3.28 WARP, and was worth about 10.8 million.

It might be a slight overpay in annual value, but having him for 2 years, and he fills a direct need for the Tigers and he is great clubhouse guy. And signing him this early in the off-season really helps set them for next year early.


(the above numbers are based on baseball prospectus WARP)

Still, a 5.5 WAR player, even with a marginal regression of 10% each season, that puts him at 5 WAR, and then 4.5. Which would help him pretty easily earn this deal.

If he comes back as a 2.5 WAR player, then no. He won't earn it.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 03:22 PM
Hmm...Jeffy's simple WAR/dollar analysis of one position in the game or a direct quote from one of the best and brightest front office men in the league quoting from his team of people who calculate? Really tough choice here.

Cute attempt at being a condescending *******. Just stop. Do you have anything you want to directly argue with in that post? Or are you just trolling and action should be brought?

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 03:22 PM
I consider 26 MIL a lot for a 37 year old outfielder.

Sure you do. I consider millions of dollars for guys to hit and throw balls a lot too. That doesn't change the realities within the business.

GA16Angels
11-14-2012, 03:28 PM
Sure you do. I consider millions of dollars for guys to hit and throw balls a lot too. That doesn't change the realities within the business.

What? Maybe I'll make this clearer. In this baseball market, paying $26 Million for a 37 year old outfielder is an overpay and Jeffy's post supports that sentiment.

rocket
11-14-2012, 03:28 PM
Tigers are going to have a pretty damn scary lineup.

Jackson Dirks Cabby Fielder Martinez Torii

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 03:29 PM
Cute attempt at being a condescending *******. Just stop. Do you have anything you want to directly argue with in that post? Or are you just trolling and action should be brought?

It was not an attempt. It was just being a condescending ******* less passive aggressively than you do your own subversive thing.




I think more people will come. But the challenge is 2.2 million instead of 1.6 million doesn’t change the way we operate. Even that extra 500,000, 600,000 people, even if that’s $10-to-15 more million in revenue a year . . . one win in free agency is $9 million. So you’re not going to change the context. Again, I don’t think people want to intellectualize baseball, and I don’t believe you should have to intellectualize baseball . . . and we’ve made a conscious decision in most of our interviews not to get into these topics and just stay positive and talk about what our aspirations are.

But that revenue swing between 1.5 million in attendance and 2.2 million in attendance . . . meaningful dollars but not dollars that will have us plan dramatically different.

Q: It wouldn’t change the amount of money spent?

A: It would change the amount of spent to 15 million dollars a year. What does that buy you in free agency? Very little. One and a half wins.

Q: How is that figure determined?

A: Our analysts can put a value on what it costs in free agency to sign a player and what that means in Wins Above Replacement and what those players end up costing in free agency and that changes every year. They measure all the players signed in free agency and what their history has been and what they offer going forward and they place a value. The challenge in free agency is you’re often paying for that in the first year of a contract, and in the out years of a contract the players WAR usually goes down because he’s usually past his prime. So it becomes a less efficient contract over time. That’s why free agency is never the best way to build. It’s a good way to supplement but not build.

Q: So $8 million for one win?

A: It’s $9 (million) now. It was $8 (million) two yeas ago. I think at the end of this year they figured out it was nine. And when those wins come in the win curve are important. What does that win mean if it’s the difference between 80 and 81? Very little. But if that win’s the difference between 89 and 90, that could be a meaningful win.

1. The number is determined by people who I know less than you but already trust infinitely more in their analysis.

2. The win curve is very important in this as the Tigers are a WS contender right now so the production that Hunter brings is of more value to them than to a lesser team.

3. We're looking at a contract that doesn't even expect 2 wins per year from him going by Shapiro's number.

As far as my issues in your extremely simple analysis:

- Why not use the FA RFers in the league and their contract numbers?

- Why not use all FAs and their contract numbers?

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 03:30 PM
What? Maybe I'll make this clearer. In this baseball market, paying $26 Million for a 37 year old outfielder is an overpay and Jeffy's post supports that sentiment.

Except it's not, clearly, as 26 million is what he got in this baseball market.

There's this huge gap between internet thought and reality...I think too few want to accept this.

Also, we're talking a 37 year old OFer with a long history as a productive player coming off a 5+ WAR season, 11.6 rWAR/10.6 fWAR in his last three.

ciaban
11-14-2012, 03:39 PM
I knew we should have made a qualifying offer.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 03:40 PM
- Why not use the FA RFers in the league and their contract numbers?

- Why not use all FAs and their contract numbers?

That is based on free agent right fielders fwiw

And I break down by position because first basemen and pitchers get paid like royalty for their production, and positions up the middle do not still.

They should be separated by position because that is who they are compared to.

GA16Angels
11-14-2012, 03:43 PM
Except it's not, clearly, as 26 million is what he got in this baseball market.

There's this huge gap between internet thought and reality...I think too few want to accept this.

Also, we're talking a 37 year old OFer with a long history as a productive player coming off a 5+ WAR season, 11.6 rWAR/10.6 fWAR in his last three.

That doesn't change the fact that it's an overpay. He's only making 5 MIL less annually then he did on the contract he signed when he was in his prime. That's ridiculous. And if the Tiger's front office truly thinks he can continue his 2012 production, they're delusional. Don't get me wrong, the Tigers definitely upgraded, but they overpaid significantly to get that upgrade.

GA16Angels
11-14-2012, 03:45 PM
I knew we should have made a qualifying offer.

But then you risk him re-signing and we'd be stuck with five outfielders with the DH spot filled again. And we'd be paying 13 MIL which is not what Hunter is worth.

ciaban
11-14-2012, 03:46 PM
thanks detroit for bumping up pagans price now he will want 17 per
Giants fans have been complaining at every signing and extension that it will "make player x ask for more", so what the giants are rolling in money, open up the wallet.

Dirks is probably the LF at the moment but could change if we sign someone or trade for someone. Castallanos isn't ready but Tigers have a history of rushing guys so I guess it's possible.

he should be sitting in the minors improving his defense, when V-Marts contract is up then slide either Prince or Miggy to DH and let castalanos play 3rd, it's not that hard.

ciaban
11-14-2012, 03:48 PM
But then you risk him re-signing and we'd be stuck with five outfielders with the DH spot filled again. And we'd be paying 13 MIL which is not what Hunter is worth.

then we could trade, no big deal. Also, it's only one year so if he plays up to it great, if he doesn't oh well he will be gone. It's kind of the perfect situation for a 37 year old like Hunter.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 03:50 PM
Would you rather give Carlos Beltran this deal, or Tori Hunter?

Season entering the 2 year deal

Hunter at age 36
RC - 86
DRS - 15
BSR - 4.8
total - 105.8

Beltran at age 34 (final year before the deal was signed)
RC - 103
DRS - -3
BSR - -2.7
Totals - 97.3

With average WAR and WPA going to Hunter.

It makes this deal seem more reasonable, when I compare it to Beltran. He is just older than Beltran.

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 03:52 PM
That doesn't change the fact that it's an overpay. He's only making 5 MIL less annually then he did on the contract he signed when he was in his prime. That's ridiculous. And if the Tiger's front office truly thinks he can continue his 2012 production, they're delusional. Don't get me wrong, the Tigers definitely upgraded, but they overpaid significantly to get that upgrade.

Yes it does because calling it an overpay has less basis in fact/reality than you happen to think because it's your opinion.

5 less million is a lot of money. How are you trying to make the argument that he should be cheaper while at the same time brushing aside 5 million as "only" 5 million?

The Tigers FO is paying, in FA price, for less than 2 wins. It's doubtful they expect his 2012, and nowhere in any of my posts have I said that.

The italicized is far more significant than your mostly unfounded opinion that they overpaid. Perhaps you and Jeffy are just less aware, or more willing to be less aware, of what FAs cost? It's far more possible than you seem willing to consider giving the numbers coming from very significant sources.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 03:57 PM
The italicized is far more significant than your mostly unfounded opinion that they overpaid. Perhaps you and Jeffy are just less aware, or more willing to be less aware, of what FAs cost? It's far more possible than you seem willing to consider giving the numbers coming from very significant sources.

Why are you set that the Tigers had to buy Hunter to get this production in right field?


They didn't HAVE to go to the free agent market to get this level of production in right field, they could have made a trade, or if they had someone, graduated someone to that position.

You are still making the dangerous assumption that value has to be bought on the free agent market.

This is overall, a decent signing for the Tigers. Not much risk, they'll likely get their moneys worth out of Hunter, and if he sucks or gets hurt it doesn't really hurt them at all.

But you are saying this like it was the Tigers only option, when they could have made a different move if they felt that was better for their organization.

They felt Hunter fit the best, but it's still the least efficient route (to buy a free agent). But if they felt this accommodated their needs the best, then good deal, I'm not so certain, but it won't hurt them enough for it to matter if it wasn't a good move.

After comparing this deal to Beltran, I like it more for the Tigers than I initially did.

FortDetroit
11-14-2012, 04:12 PM
I dont think Mike Illitch has much time left. Just wants to win. Hope we can re-sign Sanchez as well.

lol, please
11-14-2012, 04:15 PM
Championship?

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 04:18 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...the man who threw out the word strawman half a hundred times in debates with me just moved my argument from "Hunter is a good deal for the Tigers" to "Hunter was the only deal they could make."

Anyway, who is this RF they should have traded for? How/Why is a trade cheaper? Wouldn't they be giving up both talent AND salary to acquire a new corner outfielder? Can their farm system afford it? Why spend a whole post informing me that my unstated opinion that Hunter was the only option is wrong without offering up some alternatives?

There's just so much, every time...Yet I still do it, so I must be the crazy one.

lol, please
11-14-2012, 04:26 PM
Everytime I see SenorGato posting he is always taking shots at Jeffy25. :pity:

Farsight
11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
Would you rather give Carlos Beltran this deal, or Tori Hunter?

Season entering the 2 year deal

Hunter at age 36
RC - 86
DRS - 15
BSR - 4.8
total - 105.8

Beltran at age 34 (final year before the deal was signed)
RC - 103
DRS - -3
BSR - -2.7
Totals - 97.3

With average WAR and WPA going to Hunter.

It makes this deal seem more reasonable, when I compare it to Beltran. He is just older than Beltran. I'd give it to Beltran. There is a lot more risk in signing him as he was injury prone, but i always considered him a superior player when healthy. There is more risk and reward, but if it works out... i believe you would get better value

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 04:29 PM
^ Yeah, Beltran was always the more valuable offensive player and I trust offense aging over defense.


Everytime I see SenorGato posting he is always taking shots at Jeffy25.


That wasn't a shot. It's true. He strawman'd up an argument no one was making and argued that point instead.

That said, I'm mean and obviously I've just targeted this poor young man as a victim.

macj313
11-14-2012, 04:32 PM
Tigers are going to have a pretty damn scary lineup.

Jackson Dirks Cabby Fielder Martinez Torii

its going to be Jackson Hunter Cabby Fielder Martinez.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 04:41 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...the man who threw out the word strawman half a hundred times in debates with me just moved my argument from "Hunter is a good deal for the Tigers" to "Hunter was the only deal they could make."
It's the assumption that YOU made.



Anyway, who is this RF they should have traded for? How/Why is a trade cheaper? Wouldn't they be giving up both talent AND salary to acquire a new corner outfielder? Can their farm system afford it? Why spend a whole post informing me that my unstated opinion that Hunter was the only option is wrong without offering up some alternatives?
I'm only responding to your post, I'm not trying to go down the list of potential hypotheticals because that isn't what we are discussing. You brought up the cost of buying a free agent to play right field for them, by saying how expensive it was. This is your world, I'm just living in it.


And a good hypothetical, just one. I brought up the idea of moving Castellanos, Smyly, and someone else for Upton. It's one option, only one option, and it might not even be their best option. But they had other options potentially if they didn't want to buy a free agent. And as I said in the post several times, if the Tigers felt this was their best move, then by all means, it's probably a good move, and it probably is. I haven't been disputing the value here, I think you are just arguing to argue here.

xnick5757
11-14-2012, 05:07 PM
Last year right fielders made 202 million, and produced 60 WARP

3.3 million per WARP

for 26 million, Hunter need to hit close to 8 WAR over the next 2 seasons to earn the contract. Last year, in a breakout season, Hunter produced a 3.28 WARP, and was worth about 10.8 million.

It might be a slight overpay in annual value, but having him for 2 years, and he fills a direct need for the Tigers and he is great clubhouse guy. And signing him this early in the off-season really helps set them for next year early.


(the above numbers are based on baseball prospectus WARP)

is there a list for the money paid/WARP produced by position somewhere? or did you do it yourself? i'm curious to see which positions are underpaid/overpaid relative to each other

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 05:08 PM
So

1. Jackson CF
2. Hunter RF
3. Miggy 3B
4. Fielder 1B
5. Victor DH
6. Avila C
7. Dirks/Boesch/Garcia LF
8. Peralta SS
9. Infante 2B?

Greedy22
11-14-2012, 05:10 PM
Giants fans have been complaining at every signing and extension that it will "make player x ask for more", so what the giants are rolling in money, open up the wallet.


he should be sitting in the minors improving his defense, when V-Marts contract is up then slide either Prince or Miggy to DH and let castalanos play 3rd, it's not that hard.

No need to vastly overpay a guy just because they have the money, that's a horrible outlook to have.

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 05:10 PM
is there a list for the money paid/WARP produced by position somewhere? or did you do it yourself? i'm curious to see which positions are underpaid/overpaid relative to each other

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/

It's worth pointing out that WARP is different from WAR, even though it attempts to do the same thing. It uses different information and works on a different base-line. But the information is there is still there.


There is also, under fangraphs, you can go under league totals for a position and get the leagues total for fWAR at any position, and you can calculate what all the players from that position made as a whole (of course, some guys move positions though). You can also do the same thing at baseball-reference under league totals.

But those two sites I just calculate it myself. And if you need to remove all pre-arb players, it takes a while longer.


I just made an excel spreadsheet myself and did it all together to remove the free agents.

MotownWebGuy
11-14-2012, 05:11 PM
its going to be Jackson Hunter Cabby Fielder Martinez.
I agree.
But what I want to see an experiment on is...
Jackson
Hunter
Martinez
Cabrera
Fielder

Those three in front of Cabrera will allow Miggy to bat plenty of times in the first inning.

Greedy22
11-14-2012, 05:12 PM
Everytime I see SenorGato posting he is always taking shots at Jeffy25. :pity:

He needs to just go away, he desperately grasps for straws and tries swaying every argument into his favor with nonsense.

lol, please
11-14-2012, 05:12 PM
No need to vastly overpay a guy just because they have the money, that's a horrible outlook to have.

This.

xnick5757
11-14-2012, 05:13 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/

It's worth pointing out that WARP is different from WAR, even though it attempts to do the same thing. It uses different information and works on a different base-line. But the information is there is still there.


There is also, under fangraphs, you can go under league totals for a position and get the leagues total for fWAR at any position, and you can calculate what all the players from that position made as a whole (of course, some guys move positions though). You can also do the same thing at baseball-reference under league totals.

But those two sites I just calculate it myself. And if you need to remove all pre-arb players, it takes a while longer.


I just made an excel spreadsheet myself and did it all together to remove the free agents.

awesome thanks man :)

Jeffy25
11-14-2012, 05:13 PM
I agree.
But what I want to see an experiment on is...
Jackson
Hunter
Martinez
Cabrera
Fielder

Those three in front of Cabrera will allow Miggy to bat plenty of times in the first inning.

yup, and it would be the most productive lineup possible as well (I might switch V-Mart and Hunter, or put V-Mart 5th, and Fielder 2nd even.

FortDetroit
11-14-2012, 05:17 PM
No need to vastly overpay a guy just because they have the money, that's a horrible outlook to have.

yep, sticking with boesch/raburn and saving the money is the better option for sure.

its not my money, who gives a ****? and its only a 2 year deal so if it doesnt work out it doesnt work out.

illitch isnt going to stop spending until he dies and wish people would just stop complaining and whining about "overpaying". its not my money.

Rush
11-14-2012, 05:20 PM
yep, sticking with boesch/raburn and saving the money is the better option for sure.

its not my money, who gives a ****? and its only a 2 year deal so if it doesnt work out it doesnt work out.

illitch isnt going to stop spending until he dies and wish people would just stop complaining and whining about "overpaying". its not my money.

He was responding to ciaban's post about how the Giants should just overpay to keep Pagan, etc. He wasn't whining about Hunter's deal.

rocket
11-14-2012, 05:21 PM
What are we going to do with Dirks or Garcia? I guess they will split time.

Young2Kinsler
11-14-2012, 05:22 PM
13 per. A little steep.

That's what I think, but if Hunter has a couple years like this past one, he should be worth it. I think 10M a year is more realistic, but Detroit cares little about money.

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 05:23 PM
I'm only responding to your post,

Um, that post came after you creating that strawman.

The post you made that point to:


The italicized is far more significant than your mostly unfounded opinion that they overpaid. Perhaps you and Jeffy are just less aware, or more willing to be less aware, of what FAs cost? It's far more possible than you seem willing to consider giving the numbers coming from very significant sources.

Seeing as you're incredibly predictable - you probably chose to interpret the bold as "there are no other options." When it's based on Shapiro's estimates, which would be obvious following the conversation.

brought up the idea of moving Castellanos, Smyly, and someone else for Upton.

Someone else...always vague. Why would the D'Backs want Smyly? They have Skaggs, Corbin, and Miley all as young rotation options. Who is this someone else?

Young2Kinsler
11-14-2012, 05:24 PM
Delmon Young was the Tigers most productive hitter this past postseason, even better than Miggy and Prince.

That doesn't mean he's really any good, too small sample size

FortDetroit
11-14-2012, 05:27 PM
Obviously there are no guarantees...but the Tigers lineup should be much improved from the garbage that was out there most of last season.


1. Right field. Tigers right fielders hit .235 with 13 home runs, ranking last in the AL in OPS and runs scored at the position. On top of that, they ranked 29th in the majors in Defense Runs Saved at minus-17. Most of this came courtesy of Brennan Boesch.

2. Designated hitter. Tigers DHs -- mostly Delmon Young -- ranked 12th in the AL in OPS, 13th in home runs and 12th in OBP. The return of Victor Martinez should provide a big upgrade here, even if Martinez doesn't match his .330/.380/.470 line of 2011.

3. Second base. Tigers second basemen -- Ryan Raburn, Ramon Santiago, Danny Worth, Omar Infante -- hit .213 and ranked last in the AL in OPS and runs scored and next-to-last among AL teams in Defensive Runs Saved at minus-8. A full season of Infante will provide adequate defense and at least slightly improved offense.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/30822/tigers-get-much-better-with-torii-hunter

FortDetroit
11-14-2012, 05:32 PM
DKnobler ‏@DKnobler
Also, Torii set up Tuesday visit to Detroit himself. Told Tigers he wanted to come up. Obviously, they were happy to see him.


DKnobler ‏@DKnobler
It turned out Torii chose Tigers as much as they chose him. Told other teams he wasn't interested in talking unless Tigers didn't work out.


The Tigers had summoned their key baseball personnel to Detroit on Monday for what was supposed to have been two days of planning meetings when Hunter phoned general manager Dave Dombrowski and invited himself to town.

Yes. In his own mind, even without any offers yet on his table, Hunter had made his decision.

Torii appeared as if he really wanted to come to Detroit. A lot of that is probably the fact he knew he could get more money in Detroit than most other places while still compete for a WS, but still, a good sign for the team/city.

Guppyfighter
11-14-2012, 05:33 PM
The owner is about to die so they overpayed. He wants his ring. His defense will be solid, but the offense will regress.

And two years has a lot of flexibility. After this year if he stinks he becomes expiring. That ain't so bad.

mark1125
11-14-2012, 05:35 PM
Its just a two year deal. They can't worry about payroll flexibility. Their championship window is 2-3 years IMO.

This. Not sure why people whine about the money if it is short term. Tigers can afford it and 2 years is short enough.

Greedy22
11-14-2012, 06:35 PM
yep, sticking with boesch/raburn and saving the money is the better option for sure.

its not my money, who gives a ****? and its only a 2 year deal so if it doesnt work out it doesnt work out.

illitch isnt going to stop spending until he dies and wish people would just stop complaining and whining about "overpaying". its not my money.

I wasn't talking about Hunter's deal dude. Actually I like the signing for Detroit, he's a nice upgrade for you. I was responding to ciaban.

WSU Tony
11-14-2012, 06:45 PM
I like this as a Twins fan.

natepro
11-14-2012, 06:47 PM
I'll miss Hunter, no doubt, but he's not repeating what he did last season, which is what we would've paid for, and what the Tigers are paying for.

GasMan
11-14-2012, 08:43 PM
Hmm...Jeffy's simple WAR/dollar analysis of one position in the game or a direct quote from one of the best and brightest front office men in the league quoting from his team of people who's whole livelihood comes from studying and calculating this stuff? Really tough choice here.

Insult or argument?

Hunter48MVP
11-14-2012, 09:48 PM
:cry: TORII!

Lakers + Giants
11-14-2012, 10:35 PM
Giants would still sweep em.

lol, please
11-14-2012, 10:49 PM
Insult or argument?
Slight.

Giants would still sweep em.
:clap: Get 'em!

STL Don
11-14-2012, 11:05 PM
Well its a good day for Torii Hunter, landing a 26m dollar contract over the next 2 years...sheesh.
He's no longer quite the player he once was but can definitely still hold his own in the field and at the plate. He also brings experience and leadership to the table as well. A solid player to add to a playoff contending team.

Victimize
11-15-2012, 12:48 AM
So happy that now there's no chance Brennan Boesch starts.

ashleywilliam
11-15-2012, 08:21 AM
Detroit Tigers sign Torii Hunter i think thats good

mark1125
11-15-2012, 09:04 AM
I pretty much endorse this deal. The dollars are high, but it is only 2 years. People act as if it is their money. For 2 years, no biggie. This is nice for the Tigers because:

-This means Boesch will no longer patrol RF.
-Gives Avisail Garcia and Nick Castellanos time to season in the minors
-Tigers needed a #2 hitter.
-Hunter, while not what he was, should still be a .280/15/75 type.
-He conpletes a solid D OF now in Detroit.
-Has a reputation as a good locker room guy who is almost an extra coach. I am sure A Jax, Dirks, Garcia will benefit from his presence.

A lot of Tiger fans were pushing Upton, and I get it. However, Upton would have cleared out most of our limited high end specs (Castellanos, Garcia, Smyly). Hunter costs money and no specs.

GasMan
11-15-2012, 09:23 AM
So happy that now there's no chance Brennan Boesch starts.

Not so sure about this. Garcia and NC will likely stay in the minors with Dirks and Boesch platooning. Still a chance they move Boesch and keep Berry in the mix but don't write Boesch's Tiger obit yet.

MotownWebGuy
11-15-2012, 10:01 AM
Tigers are NOT done pursuing outfielders for Comerica Park this winter.

If Garcia starts the season at AA or AAA, it's because of developmental purposes... not to stunt his growth as a future big league player. If Garcia does not see #4 outfielder status (or higher as a primary outfielder), then Boech has a chance to make the 25-man roster.
Otherwise - No.

One more outfielder is coming. Someone like free agent Gomes fits the bill for Leyland. Gomes also fits the budget price range. GM Dombrowski still needs to spend significant money on a starter -- plus a couple million on a reliever. The reliever may not necessarily be a back-end bullpen guy. A closer-by-committee may be used in 2013.... ie.... Coke, Alburguerque, Rondon, Benoit, Dotel....etc.

Rylinkus
11-18-2012, 01:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8639763/mlb-free-agency-detroit-tigers-finalize-two-year-26m-deal-torii-hunter

Killer Clown
11-18-2012, 01:56 PM
Isnt this old news?

treeleaf
11-18-2012, 02:03 PM
Would rather have melky 2/16

MetsFanatic19
11-18-2012, 02:10 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=779618

Rylinkus
11-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Isnt this old news?

Guess so. No idea how i missed this thread. I thought everyone was too busy talking about Juan Pierre.