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Il Mago50
11-13-2012, 11:46 PM
This is coming from a Jays fan since 2000 that has seen nothing but garbage team after garbage team for over a decade.

At the trade deadline, we picked up two very good bullpen arms in Delabar and Lincoln. As well, we still have Casey Jannsen and will get back Sergio Santos next year along with a few other very good arms in our bullpen which should be a major strength for the team.

The line-up now consists of two potent power bats in Encarnacion and Jose Bautista as well as good hitters like Rasmus, Arencibia, Lind, Brett Lawrie and potentially Travis D'Arnaud. Now we added one of the best lead off hitters and table setters to a lineup already potent to begin with.

Finally, we have the pitching staff. Josh Johnson was very good for the most part in his first year back last season. Mark Buerhle spent his entire career in Chicago and knows how to pitch in the AL to be a good 3rd start. Brendan Morrow was one of the best AL pitchers up until his injury. Lastly, Ricky Romero struggled mightily but his career thus far has suggested a pitcher much better then the one we saw last year.

With all that talent, I think that this team, at least on paper and Angels, Rangers, Phillies, etc. fans know that paper is pretty preliminary, but on paper this team actually looks like one of the top teams in the AL at this point.

What do you guys think?

Killer Clown
11-13-2012, 11:47 PM
They definitlely have a good shot. Lets see what the Yankees/Red Sox do in the offseason though

DeRaptor95
11-13-2012, 11:53 PM
Lets wait for this trade to go through officially

bomber0104
11-13-2012, 11:59 PM
Not ready to crown them AL east champs myself but they are definitely a much better team

it will only come down to health because the talent is there

Guppyfighter
11-14-2012, 12:00 AM
Possibly.

Edit: Look at my avatar. Anything is possible.

AntwanN21
11-14-2012, 12:01 AM
Not yet. These guys still need to prove they can be healthy for the entire year and live up to their price tags. That being said, I'm excited.

LanceUpperCut
11-14-2012, 12:03 AM
It all depends on health. There still plenty of off season left.

Jamiecballer
11-14-2012, 12:04 AM
i think you've not been watching baseball closely if you think you've seen nothing but garbage team after garbage team for the past decade!

SenorGato
11-14-2012, 12:06 AM
Moreso than they have been in 15 or 20 years, IIRC. That division could be there for the taking if the Yankees can't re up well.

dodgersuck
11-14-2012, 12:20 AM
I still like the Rays to win the East

Sanyo
11-14-2012, 12:28 AM
Jays need to fill the DH and LF hole (say Swisher and Upton?).

If they do that, yes they will be AL east champions most likely.

Raps08-09 Champ
11-14-2012, 12:44 AM
Maybe.

But then again, some also thought the Marlins would make some noise before they ended up underachieving.

Super.
11-14-2012, 12:48 AM
Nope.

masTOR_shake1
11-14-2012, 12:53 AM
if they were healthy this past season they would have been contenders,,so hell yupp.

FlakeyFool
11-14-2012, 12:59 AM
We need a manager first
Then we need baustista to regain form
Then we need ricky to rebound
Then edwin to continue his great season

Jays Claw
11-14-2012, 01:18 AM
There are still some holes in the lineup needed to be filled. 1B, LF, and DH could all use significant upgrades along with the bench and the back end of the rotation. So far on paper, they look like a good 90+ win team. But again... that's just on paper. Many variables like injuries and inconsistencies are yet to be accounted for so let's not get too ahead of ourselves.

Toxeryll
11-14-2012, 01:22 AM
id like to say yes, but theres still too many holes like DH, LF and 1 more SP. 2B could be improved as well.

MetsJets0809
11-14-2012, 01:24 AM
You guys have the pieces now. The Red Sox and Yankees will most likely make at least one massive move each to slow momentum, but I think all 5 teams now in the AL East are good. But I'm loving this trade. It added everything you guys lacked and more. Bonifacio is gonna be a very useful player for you guys. He was a thorn in the Mets side hahah. And Jose is amazing. He is firey and can be a leader for you guys. With Him, Bautista, and Encarnacion in the lineup, it's gonna be fun to see

Halladay
11-14-2012, 01:26 AM
IF the rotation can stay somewhat healthy, I think we have the wild card and a pretty good shot at the division. The Rays are our biggest concern at this point. The Yankees could be right there too but I'm not sure what to even make of that team at this point. The Orioles had an odd season and I still cannot for the life of me figure out how they made it so far. Boston...well, I think they're in the basement this season unless the rotation has a massive bounceback season but even then, I still don't think they're better than New York,Tampa or Toronto.

SpecialFNK
11-14-2012, 01:41 AM
where is Encarnacion playing? wherever he is doesn't need an upgrade. that's either 1B or DH.

how much of a difference does a manager make? because right now the Jays don't even have a manager yet.

The 6-4-3
11-14-2012, 01:43 AM
They are sure a hell of a lot better than last years team.

Good rotation.

Dol-Fan
11-14-2012, 01:48 AM
At this point there are a couple of wild cards

1. Health: Morrow, Johnson, Reyes, Bautista, Lawrie, d'Arnaud (assuming JPA gets dealt) are all injury concerns, and the most important keys to the Jays' success. Though you can never predict injuries, the season could go south in a hurry if anything should happen to 2+ of these guys.

2. Turnaround for Romero: if he returns to a 3.50-4.00 xFIP type of pitcher, the Jays' rotation looks really good. If he is Ricky Romero of last year, the Jays' will have serious problems at the backend of their rotation.

3. One more bat: the lineup needs some left-handed power for the middle of the order. No, Adam Lind does not count.

Joemoes
11-14-2012, 02:05 AM
They should sign Jason bay, Sizemore, or hafner catch lightning.

Lakers + Giants
11-14-2012, 02:28 AM
were the Marlins contenders? Nope.

Farsight
11-14-2012, 02:35 AM
At this point there are a couple of wild cards

1. Health: Morrow, Johnson, Reyes, Bautista, Lawrie, d'Arnaud (assuming JPA gets dealt) are all injury concerns, and the most important keys to the Jays' success. Though you can never predict injuries, the season could go south in a hurry if anything should happen to 2+ of these guys.

2. Turnaround for Romero: if he returns to a 3.50-4.00 xFIP type of pitcher, the Jays' rotation looks really good. If he is Ricky Romero of last year, the Jays' will have serious problems at the backend of their rotation.

3. One more bat: the lineup needs some left-handed power for the middle of the order. No, Adam Lind does not count.I like d'Arnuad. I honestly think he will develop into a great player if he can stay away from the injury bug. However, you have to admit, some of his injuries have been freak occurrences lol

Bombtista
11-14-2012, 02:35 AM
were the Marlins contenders? Nope.

Yes, but you see the Jays have a totally separate core aside from the core of Miami that we now have. The players acquired should go a long way to making the jays a playoff team

Killer Clown
11-14-2012, 02:37 AM
We need a manager first
Then we need baustista to regain form
Then we need ricky to rebound
Then edwin to continue his great season

Pessimist

Halladay
11-14-2012, 02:51 AM
were the Marlins contenders? Nope.

:facepalm:

raidersrock99
11-14-2012, 02:58 AM
Nope marlins had all these guys and sucked this is very similar to bos la trade IMO.

Halladay
11-14-2012, 03:03 AM
Nope marlins had all these guys and sucked this is very similar to bos la trade IMO.

Yup. The Marlins 90 loss season was all because of these guys. Who cares about the stats am I right?

Buckwheat
11-14-2012, 03:08 AM
Nope marlins had all these guys and sucked this is very similar to bos la trade IMO.

This logic is so awful that I'm afraid to even classify it as logic.

scottythegreat1
11-14-2012, 04:25 AM
This team kind of reminds me of the 2006 Blue Jays......

For Those who dont recall I will spell it out here.......

After the 2004 season, Rogers Bought Skydome, changed the name of it to Rogers Centre, changed the Astroturf to Fieldturf, and committed to spending 210 million over 3 years....they didnt do much in 2005 due to the purchase of Rogers Centre just as players were starting Spring Training....SO

After the 2005 season, they spent their money...First on the Best Closer on the market (BJ Ryan), that convinced AJ Burnett to come here....and they also traded for a defensive first baseman (Lyle Overbay), and that convince a solid power bat at Third base (Troy Glaus) to waive this no trade clause to come play here for a great defensive second baseman (Orlando Hudson).....In short, it was their best season since 1993 because they finished second in the AL East for the first time since 1993 with 87-75 record, beating Boston for third by ONE game.

So, what I am trying to say is, YES!!! This team WILL make a push for contention, but there will still be some troubles.

The AL East has finally broken the mold with Yankees/Red Sox at the top with everyone else in the same spot.

The Red Sox have a lot of work to do this offseason, so it is hard to say what will happen...They need to fill the holes or else theyre on the bottom again...The Blue Jays have responded with their splash, and its the Red Sox turn to tell their fans what theyre going to do to compete.

The Yankees are slowly getting older, Teixiera isnt as good as he used to be, and A-Rod is aging rapidly...Jeter isnt going to repeat last years come back performance, but he is still Jeter. Mo is back...but is he the same Mo after missing a whole season??? Pineda is back, I expect him to fill in nicely.

Tampa is a durable team, as always. A full season from Longoria will help them hold their usual contention potential.

We really dont know if last year was a fluke for Baltimore or not. Im sure theyll have the confidence they need, will Jim Johnson be able to repeat last years success??? He was half the reason they did so well, he set the tone for that entire pitching staff, yes he is a closer, but thats what he did. A lot of players had career years in Baltimore, I doubt ALL of them will repeat.

We dont know how well the new acquisitions in Toronto will translate playing in the AL East...I trust the durability of Mark Buehrle, but Johnson, as good as he is, has little AL East experience, That Yankees team is still very dangerous, they could tee off Johnson (and even Buehrle), Im concerned about Reyes playing on artificial turf as it historically is bad for regular hamstring/ankle injury players...SO there is a possibility that Reyes could not be completely available to play 150 games. We know that Bautista missed half the season, and Romero had a rough year (in which Id say he played hurt due to all the others going down)...Id say Romero will bounce back, especially with all the other decent pitching they have...so Im certain they wont LOSE 90 games again, theyre likely to contend.

In essence, ANY OF THESE FIVE TEAMS can win the AL East when it comes down to paper....its a question of who can have the least amount of players on the disabled list and who can come up from AAA to replace the injured players...the Yankees are best at finding has-been players to come off the bench for these injuries, as for the other teams?????? I said it last year, the AL East could have BOTH Wild Cards from the division...all of the teams are just that good, it IS the most competitive and toughest division in baseball. I used to be able to easily predict win/loss records, I dont even want to take a stab at it at all...because its anybodys ball game.

leafswin2011
11-14-2012, 04:33 AM
Cito is coming back baby

ahoda
11-14-2012, 08:09 AM
They should be fun to watch and should challenge for a playoff spot. Health and rotation will be their biggest issues to overcome.

dballss
11-14-2012, 09:42 AM
offseason just started

ricomactaco
11-14-2012, 09:44 AM
The Jays are definately all in this year. The Sox are down, the Yanks are trying to get under the cap and they're hoping the O's were a 1 year wonder. They are not done IMO. They will sign another pitcher and possibly another game changing position player aka Josh Hamilton.

Pinstripe pride
11-14-2012, 09:45 AM
they are going to be tough if they can stay healthy. it hought they had a chance to contend this past season before all the injuries hit

madmike77
11-14-2012, 09:53 AM
A lot depends on health, as always. With Johnson and Morrow that's obviously a concern.

But yeah clearly they're a contender now - not a clear-cut favorite, but a contender.

I thought they were in trouble next year because of their pitching - if Romero didn't bounce back things were looking very sketchy. But with the rotation they have now, Romero could slot it as the 4th pitcher and they'd likely be ok.

SpecialFNK
11-14-2012, 09:59 AM
the Marlins were not contenders with these players. so? what good offensive players did the Marlins have other than Stanton? these new offensive Jays players are being put with other good offensive players like Batista, Encarnacion, Lawrie.
Reyes and Bonificaio batting in front of those 3 are going to have a lot of opportunities to score.

Miltstar
11-14-2012, 10:14 AM
On paper the Jays are the team to beat in the East now. And they aren't done shopping yet. They have 3 quality catchers on their roster (JPA/TDA/Buck) and it's hard to imagine them going into the season with all of them. Look for JPA to be traded and hopefully Lind too.

Free agents are gonna look at this trade and want to jump on board. If they could somehow convince ownership to go all in for Hamilton there would be little doubt who the favourites were. Then they could turn around and trade Gose/JPA/Lind for another quality starter. Cooper could fill in at first base and you'd have yourself a championship calibre team.

I can't wait to see what happens in the next couple weeks.

rkelly7
11-14-2012, 10:22 AM
I would not go as far to say they are contenders, but they have a team that can finally make a run.

The only problem is that the two biggest difference makers they got in the trade, Jose Reyes and Josh Johnson have missed significant time due to injury in recent seasons. If they stay healthy all year, the Jays can make a run. If not, especially Reyes, where they would have nobody to back him up considering they traded Yunel and Adeiny, they will most likely dissapoint. Don't want to be throwing Maicer Izturis out at short, that's for sure.

Reyes missed:

2012: 2 games
2011: 36 games
2010: 29 games
2009: 126 games

Johnson missed:
2011:23 starts
2010-4 starts

At least they have a horse in Buehrle, but the Jays must also keep in mind they have an injury riddle pitching staff with Morrow and Drabek. Romero also needs a bounce back season because that would make their staff pretty darn good if they got his pre 2012 form back.

AL East is gonna be interesting. Think the Rays might hold onto their pitching now? ha

lvlheaded
11-14-2012, 10:31 AM
Correct me if I am wrong here as I dont know too much about the Jays, but as of now their lineup would look something like this:

1- SS Reyes
2- 2B Bonafacio
3- LF Bautista
4- DH Encarnacion
5- 3B Lawrie
6- CF Rasmus
7- 1B Lind
8- C Arencibia/d'Arnaud
9- RF Gose

With a starting staff of

1. Romero
2. Johnson
3. Buerhle
4. Morrow
5. Happ/Drabek

That would be without making a single addition the rest of the offseason. That team ON PAPER should win at least 90. Now obviously the Marlins and Angels are proof that acquiring big names does not equate to success, however I have to believe that the Jays will at the very least be right in the thick of things next year. It will be interesting to see how they conduct the rest of their offseason

SpecialFNK
11-14-2012, 10:31 AM
the Jays need a manager. how about Bobby Cox?
what?


According to Jon Paul Morosi of FOXSports.com, the Blue Jays reached out to Bobby Cox last month about their manager job.
It's an interesting idea to think about, as Cox managed the Blue Jays from 1982-1985, but the 71-year-old said no. Still, Morosi wonders if Cox could reconsider following the Jays' blockbuster deal with the Marlins. Blue Jays general manager Alex Anthopoulos has indicated that he would prefer a manager with experience, but his search has largely been kept under wraps.

Miltstar
11-14-2012, 10:33 AM
LOL at Romero being the ace of our staff after last year's debacle!

rkelly7
11-14-2012, 10:36 AM
On paper the Jays are the team to beat in the East now. And they aren't done shopping yet. They have 3 quality catchers on their roster (JPA/TDA/Buck) and it's hard to imagine them going into the season with all of them. Look for JPA to be traded and hopefully Lind too.

Free agents are gonna look at this trade and want to jump on board. If they could somehow convince ownership to go all in for Hamilton there would be little doubt who the favourites were. Then they could turn around and trade Gose/JPA/Lind for another quality starter. Cooper could fill in at first base and you'd have yourself a championship calibre team.

I can't wait to see what happens in the next couple weeks.

hahahaha, let's not stretch it now.. the Jays won 73 games last year.

They added

Josh Johnson (3.8 WAR)
Jose Reyes (4.5 WAR)
Mark Buehrle (2.1 WAR)
John Buck (1.2 WAR)
emilio Bonafacio (0.6 WAR

But you also lost

Yunekl Escobar (1.8 WAR)
A bunch of WAR off the bench.

I understand you can't just add WAR and come up with a wins total accurately, but for humor's sake: Even if all the players to the Jays replicate their 2012 success, the Jays would be a:

drumroll please:

83-84 win team. That would have put them at fourth place in the AL East in 2012. That would have put them 11 games behind the Yankees and 6 games behind the third place Rays. They would have still finished fourth.

THe Yankees, Orioles, and Rays are still the team to beat, and calling them the favorites on paper is crazy. The Jays will need a fully healthy season from about everybody (Bautista, Morrow, Johnson, Reyes) and a bouceback season from Romero is they want to win this. It is still an uphill battle.

I personally think the Jays are going topackage Buehrle and JPA and try to land Justin Upton in a three way deal, but you didn't hear it from me. ;)

Halladay
11-14-2012, 10:38 AM
hahahaha, let's not stretch it now.. the Jays won 73 games last year.

They added

Josh Johnson (3.8 WAR)
Jose Reyes (4.5 WAR)
Mark Buehrle (2.1 WAR)
John Buck (1.2 WAR)
emilio Bonafacio (0.6 WAR

But you also lost

Yunekl Escobar (1.8 WAR)
A bunch of WAR off the bench.

I understand you can't just add WAR and come up with a wins total accurately, but for humor's sake: Even if all the players to the Jays replicate their 2012 success, the Jays would be a:

drumroll please:

83-84 win team. That would have put them at fourth place in the AL East in 2012. That would have put them 11 games behind the Yankees and 6 games behind the third place Rays. They would have still finished fourth.

THe Yankees, Orioles, and Rays are still the team to beat, and calling them the favorites on paper is crazy. The Jays will need a fully healthy season from about everybody (Bautista, Morrow, Johnson, Reyes) and a bouceback season from Romero is they want to win this. It is still an uphill battle.

I personally think the Jays are going topackage Buehrle and JPA and try to land Justin Upton in a three way deal, but you didn't hear it from me. ;)

WAR doesn't work this way...

MotownWebGuy
11-14-2012, 10:41 AM
Blue Jays Finally Contenders??

What do you guys think?

Correct!
You will also see contention from the Kansas City Royals.

Every year, MLB gets dealt a few surprise teams.

SpecialFNK
11-14-2012, 10:42 AM
because WAR is so meaningful. #overrated.

not everything in baseball can be calculated into numbers.
different players can perform differently in different situations where you can't calculate that into a number.
it's different.

Miltstar
11-14-2012, 10:46 AM
The Jays were decimated by injuries in 2012. I wouldn't read too much into their W/L record from last year. Health is definately still a major concern though.

Halladay
11-14-2012, 10:47 AM
because WAR is so meaningful. #overrated.

not everything in baseball can be calculated into numbers.
different players can perform differently in different situations where you can't calculate that into a number.
it's different.
WAR isnt overrated it's just understanding how the stat works and is applied. I'm a saber guy but I know there's flaws in all the stats. I also know these stats are much more accurate and telling than something irrelevant like RBI's.

SpecialFNK
11-14-2012, 10:50 AM
I'm not a WAR guy and maybe don't know enough about it. but when multiple different websites have a different WAR number for the same player for the same season, then it has a huge flaw.

Young2Kinsler
11-14-2012, 10:57 AM
I don't see what Jays fans see in guys like Lind and Rasmus

rkelly7
11-14-2012, 10:58 AM
I undersatand everybody's point. WAR isn't perfect and you can't just add the numbers and expect to get a perfectly accurate determination. All I'm saying is the Jays need to be healthy, and even then I wouldn't call them the favorites. They just landed three solid players, but they need them to perform and for their players from last year to stay healthy and productive. I don't think AA is done. I see them landing another good piece in a trade. They have John Buck and D'Arnard, so JPA is trade bait.

I also see them looking into shopping Buehrle to the loser of the Greinke sweepstakes (Rangers, Angels, Brewers)

Dol-Fan
11-14-2012, 11:02 AM
I don't see what Jays fans see in guys like Lind and Rasmus

I think there is one guy on the Jays' forum who likes Lind. He sucks and we know it. We've been waiting for his departure for a long time now, and there was a mini party when he was demoted last year.

Colby is bit different. He was 8th in CF OPS last year before getting injured. He's streaky as hell but has pop and is quite good defensively. I think he's got one more season to show that he's a ~.750 OPS CF, and if he is - admittedly, he may not be - then he's a solid player to have around. Not a star, and you certainly upgrade if you can, but useful.

rcs15
11-14-2012, 11:05 AM
The Rays and Yankees are still better

Giannis94
11-14-2012, 11:14 AM
Jays need to fill the DH and LF hole (say Swisher and Upton?).

If they do that, yes they will be AL east champions most likely.
Okay but if you want Upton your going to give up 1 of: Syndergaard,Sanchez, Norris, and most likely D'Arnaud.
Thats like saying "if the Brewers trade for Upton, sign Hamilton and Greinke then they will be favorites to win the NL Central"

adab
11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
Way to early to tell how this affects the team's fortunes. Certainly, they're better than before the trade, but you'd have to reserve judgement until you see how the other AL East teams react with regards to thekir own trades and freee agent signings. Hopefully the Jays are not done with modifying their roster; they still need a LF and you can nebver have enough pitching.
Lastly, with the Astros now in the AL West and the AL Central having 1 or 2 good teams with a bunch of inferior quality teams, it's entirely possible that neither AL wild card team will come from the East.

Giannis94
11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
WAR doesn't work this way...

Exactly. Bonifacio was out for most of the season. I think Jays fans will be pleasantly surprised with him if he plays to his potential.

rkelly7
11-14-2012, 11:16 AM
Rasmus isn't terrible, Lind is. I always had a problem with Jays fans defending Travis Snider! He was never good except for half a season. I was sooooooooooooooo happy when AA traded him. Phew.

SpecialFNK
11-14-2012, 11:25 AM
Okay but if you want Upton your going to give up 1 of: Syndergaard,Sanchez, Norris, and most likely D'Arnaud.
Thats like saying "if the Brewers trade for Upton, sign Hamilton and Greinke then they will be favorites to win the NL Central"

I think he meant he wants a BJ.
no wait, that didn't come out right lol.
I mean I think he meant BJ, as in free agent BJ Upton. not trading for Justin Upton.

Giannis94
11-14-2012, 11:27 AM
Rasmus isn't terrible, Lind is. I always had a problem with Jays fans defending Travis Snider! He was never good except for half a season. I was sooooooooooooooo happy when AA traded him. Phew.

Lind is very terrible. I wouldn't be all that surprised if they take a flier on a FA OF like Delmon Young say 1 year 10-12 mill (just due to the fact that its 1 year. ), Jayson Bay (1 year 2 mill with incentives), Nyjer Morgan (highly unlikely).

I still think the Tigers are favorites in the AL, with Rondon replacing Valverde and Martinez in essence replacing Young.

Giannis94
11-14-2012, 11:35 AM
I think he meant he wants a BJ.
no wait, that didn't come out right lol.
I mean I think he meant BJ, as in free agent BJ Upton. not trading for Justin Upton.

Still unrealisitic, your asking an organization to sign Swisher to a 3 year 30-40 million dollar deal and upton to a 4-5 year deal worth 50-60 mill. In that case you are screwing yourself over. I think Swisher has a better shot to remain productive than BJ Upton over the length of a deal. At the same time, you should be able to get similar production out of D'arnaud.

SpecialFNK
11-14-2012, 11:36 AM
I wouldn't want Nyjer Morgan, he would be worse than Lind. Morgan is bad against LH pitching, with no power.

I'm not a big Lind fan, but I still see potential. he was great in AAA when he went down there. he isn't all that good himself against LH pitching, but I think he could be really valuable if they could split him with someone that is good against LH pitching. I'm probably going to get people telling me I'm nuts for suggesting this, but someone like free agent Juan Rivera.

miller74
11-14-2012, 11:41 AM
I wouldn't want Nyjer Morgan, he would be worse than Lind. Morgan is bad against LH pitching, with no power.

I'm not a big Lind fan, but I still see potential. he was great in AAA when he went down there. he isn't all that good himself against LH pitching, but I think he could be really valuable if they could split him with someone that is good against LH pitching. I'm probably going to get people telling me I'm nuts for suggesting this, but someone like free agent Juan Rivera.

Me neither disrespectful little punk. If you take your chew outta ur mouth and throw it at an opposing pitcher, you shoud get ur *** beaten to the ground

CheeznWingz
11-14-2012, 11:50 AM
Some experts had us as an outside chance for the second wild card at the start of last season. This move makes the team better than last year and should put the Jays in the hunt come October.

Farsight
11-14-2012, 11:58 AM
Lind is very terrible. I wouldn't be all that surprised if they take a flier on a FA OF like Delmon Young say 1 year 10-12 mill (just due to the fact that its 1 year. ), Jayson Bay (1 year 2 mill with incentives), Nyjer Morgan (highly unlikely).

I still think the Tigers are favorites in the AL, with Rondon replacing Valverde and Martinez in essence replacing Young. Young is a terrible player aswell. 10 million is WAY TO MUCH. Maybe a team signs him to a 3-4 million,but 10 million... Young would have to have some dirt on a GM. I would rather have Lind on our team than Young.

leafswin2011
11-14-2012, 12:14 PM
there is obviously another trade coming.no way we go into the season with 3 catchers.I could still see us getting marcum as well.

cubs1st
11-14-2012, 12:25 PM
The team that signs Delmon Young is making a big mistake. He won't produce like he did in the playoffs.

Giannis94
11-14-2012, 12:30 PM
The reason I suggested a 10 mill potential deal is because he is obviously going to be looking long term and that's something the Jays shouldn't wanna do. I do see it being more 5-8 mill for 1 year but you have to understand that every FA is going to be looking for a long term deal if they can get it.

Farsight
11-14-2012, 12:37 PM
The reason I suggested a 10 mill potential deal is because he is obviously going to be looking long term and that's something the Jays shouldn't wanna do. I do see it being more 5-8 mill for 1 year but you have to understand that every FA is going to be looking for a long term deal if they can get it. Obviously ever free agent wants a long term contract, but hes in no position to ask for one. Hes one of the worse players in baseball, and im not exaggerating. He should be lucky if a team offered him a one year contract, with a base salary of 2-3 million

rkelly7
11-14-2012, 12:42 PM
AA would be idiotic to even call Delmon Young's agent. Delmon Young is not good. Why would you even want him on your team?

Mitchell133
11-14-2012, 01:14 PM
What a trade.. You guys will have to look hard to be critical of the Blue Jays in this scenario. Lost good prospects, but nobody of depth.. Lost an ok big league, but replaced him with one of the best.

Jays will compete, that's all there is to it.

lol, please
11-14-2012, 04:13 PM
I hope they do well.

StryderSox
11-14-2012, 04:52 PM
What a trade.. You guys will have to look hard to be critical of the Blue Jays in this scenario. Lost good prospects, but nobody of depth.. Lost an ok big league, but replaced him with one of the best.

Jays will compete, that's all there is to it.

Who was saying they wont? I think everyone pretty much agrees that they should be in the hunt for the next 2-3 years now. Its if they can sustain that 4 and 5 years from now that people are questioning.

mtf
11-14-2012, 05:05 PM
Who was saying they wont? I think everyone pretty much agrees that they should be in the hunt for the next 2-3 years now. Its if they can sustain that 4 and 5 years from now that people are questioning.

I think the biggest factor in the Jays long-term success rests on the success short term more than anything else. If the Jays don't tank like some teams who raised expectations the past few years (2011 Boston, 2012 Miami, ...2013 Dodgers?) and Anthopoulos makes it through the next 3 years with his job, I think he'll maintain a productive minor league system to support the big club.

In the 2012 draft, I believe the Blue Jays had more selections in the top 100 than any other team, and I believe they'll be drafting 9th overall in the 2013 draft (or perhaps 10th overall due to the Appel situation with Pittsburg).

In addition, they've been pretty active building up a base of talent in the lower minor league levels with signings like Roberto Osuna and Adonys Cardona. They also retained Noah Syndergaard, Travis D'Arnaud, Anthony Gose, Aaron Sanchez, Brett Lawrie and Anthony Gose.

From my own personal perspective, I'm still very enthusiastic about the future and I'd simply register my opinion as cautiously optimistic for the next couple of years.

dballss
11-14-2012, 05:25 PM
if everyone is mostly healthy i would say yes, but the jays have quite a few injury prone guys right now, have to wait and see...dont think they're done either, off season just started

AsfanSince99
11-14-2012, 05:43 PM
I love this trade for the B'Jays. This definitely makes them contenders!

LASportsFan1996
11-14-2012, 07:36 PM
Perhaps

SLS80
11-18-2012, 11:41 AM
They definitlely have a good shot. Lets see what the Yankees/Red Sox do in the offseason though

Yes they have a good shot. Don't have to worry about the redsox...they are "rebuilding" Yanks will spend and I would say have an eye on TBay.

Billyen
11-18-2012, 05:26 PM
Maybe...but lots of trade chips now.

SpecialFNK
11-18-2012, 07:20 PM
According to ESPN's Buster Olney, former Indians manager Manny Acta has been strongly reviewed by the Blue Jays.
This confirms earlier speculation that the Jays had interest in Acta. Olney reports that Jim Tracy and and Jim Riggleman are also among the final names being discussed. The Jays are believed to be "close" to hiring their next manager. Acta, who was fired by the Indians late in 2012, has a history with GM Alex Anthopoulos.

who would be a better manager for this Jays team?

mtf
11-18-2012, 07:30 PM
who would be a better manager for this Jays team?

None of the potential candidates look particularly interesting, in my opinion. Unless they can overpay someone like Torre to come out of retirement, which is unlikely to say the least.

SpecialFNK
11-19-2012, 11:20 AM
Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun hears that the Blue Jays have "phoned former Mariners executives and others" asking about former Seattle manager Mike Hargrove.
He appears to be one of the finalists for the team's vacant managerial position. Like fellow candidates Manny Acta, Jim Tracy and Jim Riggleman, Hargrove has the experience the Blue Jays are looking for, having spent parts of 16 years as a big league skipper. The Jays are expected to announce a decision on their next manager soon.

I've been thinking about something when it comes to the Jays and who they could get to be their new manager. I wonder if the Jays would be able to talk to a team already with a manager, maybe a manager the Jays would be interested in. maybe that manager would be interested in managing the Jays. the teams could work out a trade.
we've seen it happen with the Jays this offseason "trading" Farrell to Boston Red Sox. Boston let it be known they were interested in Farrell while he was still the manager of the Jays. so if word was to come out that the Jays were interested in one or more current managers from other teams then it wouldn't be tampering. and as we've seen with the Farrell trade and the Jays getting Aviles, the price to trade for a manager isn't really high.

Vampirate
11-19-2012, 12:51 PM
The Achiles heel on the Blue Jays is health.

If healthy for the year this is as constructed a wild card team and possibly a penant team.

Kelly Gruber
11-19-2012, 01:18 PM
I would say the AL East ranks as follows talent-wise:

1. Yankees
2/3. Blue Jays/Rays
4/5. Orioles/Red Sox

The Yankees have an solid line-up that has a lot of talent. The age thing is over-blown, these guys can still play. I fully expect them to be in the mix again.

The Red Sox look down and out to me, but anything can happen and they still have a few pieces. If their pitching staff comes together, they'll hit enough to hang around. Plus I highly doubt they head into next season with their current roster.

Rays always play above the names on their roster. They play baseball the right way and are in every game. Great pitching and clutch hitters that don't quit. They'll hang around as well.

The Orioles are a wild card. Things bounced their way from opening day, could that continue? Sure. Is it likely to? No. They'll either take their experience from last year and build on it, or they'll fall back to Earth. Hard to say.

The Jays have obviously added a lot of talent, but there are a tonne of question marks as well.

To summarize, the AL East is as muddled a mess as it's ever been. Will be very hard to predict this division. I think where this deal works for the Jays is going forward. They'll only get better in the next few seasons as these players come together and some of the youngsters make their way to the big leagues. Have to keep in mind that the Jays have a top 5-10 farm still and most of that is in A ball right now.

Whoever comes out of the AL East is "a contender" and whoever doesn't, isn't. Just really tough to tell who that will be at this point. We'll just have to see what happens in this case. Predictions are futile at this point in the AL East.

ATL#22
11-19-2012, 03:06 PM
They will win the AL East

Luca68
11-19-2012, 04:15 PM
its time for everybody to take notice, the jays are for reaal!! ::D

Vampirate
11-19-2012, 05:59 PM
They will win the AL East

Woah, woah, woah, let's not make auto assumptions. Until the Yankees are dethroned they are still the team to beat and I still have them ahead of the Jays.

And i'm a Blue Jay fan myself.

ManRam
11-19-2012, 07:28 PM
Nope marlins had all these guys and sucked this is very similar to bos la trade IMO.

This is a great post

Vampirate
11-19-2012, 07:35 PM
This is a great post

On paper the Blue Jays hitting is better than the Marlins last year, our Starting and Relieving Pitching is better than the Marlins last year, and I could make a case for defence as well.

Also, the Blue Jays won't have Ozzie Guillén as manager of last year.

R. Johnson#3
11-19-2012, 07:44 PM
This is coming from a Jays fan since 2000 that has seen nothing but garbage team after garbage team for over a decade.

At the trade deadline, we picked up two very good bullpen arms in Delabar and Lincoln. As well, we still have Casey Jannsen and will get back Sergio Santos next year along with a few other very good arms in our bullpen which should be a major strength for the team.

The line-up now consists of two potent power bats in Encarnacion and Jose Bautista as well as good hitters like Rasmus, Arencibia, Lind, Brett Lawrie and potentially Travis D'Arnaud. Now we added one of the best lead off hitters and table setters to a lineup already potent to begin with.

Finally, we have the pitching staff. Josh Johnson was very good for the most part in his first year back last season. Mark Buerhle spent his entire career in Chicago and knows how to pitch in the AL to be a good 3rd start. Brendan Morrow was one of the best AL pitchers up until his injury. Lastly, Ricky Romero struggled mightily but his career thus far has suggested a pitcher much better then the one we saw last year.

With all that talent, I think that this team, at least on paper and Angels, Rangers, Phillies, etc. fans know that paper is pretty preliminary, but on paper this team actually looks like one of the top teams in the AL at this point.

What do you guys think?

You're obviously full of ****. We loaded our team in 2006 like we have this off-season. That team looked amazing.....on paper.

Vampirate
11-19-2012, 07:58 PM
You're obviously full of ****. We loaded our team in 2006 like we have this off-season. That team looked amazing.....on paper.

Thing is the Jays arguably made better and more upgrades now than then.

AJ Burnett was always known as a pitcher with great stuff but had mental breakdowns in game.

We gave up so much dough to a reliever, bad idea.

We're not paying big money to a 38 year old DH.

Also it looks like as a hitter EE is better than Overbay, even when Overbay was a good hitter.

R. Johnson#3
11-19-2012, 11:17 PM
Thing is the Jays arguably made better and more upgrades now than then.

AJ Burnett was always known as a pitcher with great stuff but had mental breakdowns in game.

We gave up so much dough to a reliever, bad idea.

We're not paying big money to a 38 year old DH.

Also it looks like as a hitter EE is better than Overbay, even when Overbay was a good hitter.

Still got 2 more players to go.

Vampirate
11-19-2012, 11:31 PM
Still got 2 more players to go.

My bet is JPA or Ramsus are the next players to be traded.

ATL#22
11-20-2012, 12:11 AM
Woah, woah, woah, let's not make auto assumptions. Until the Yankees are dethroned they are still the team to beat and I still have them ahead of the Jays.

And i'm a Blue Jay fan myself.

Thats my prediction and I'm sticking to it

Ill21
11-20-2012, 12:33 AM
All depends if Ricky and Bautista can bounce back

MackSnackWrap
11-20-2012, 01:25 AM
Bautista was picking it up before his injury.. his hr count was top 3 and he was on a tear^

Dol-Fan
11-20-2012, 01:31 AM
Bautista was picking it up before his injury.. his hr count was top 3 and he was on a tear^

I would imagine he's referring to the wrist injury, they can sap power for long periods of time especially if they linger. It is a cause for at least modest concern.

Vampirate
11-20-2012, 01:36 AM
I would imagine he's referring to the wrist injury, they can sap power for long periods of time especially if they linger. It is a cause for at least modest concern.

It's a good thing the offence doesn't rely on JUST Bautista anymore.

R. Johnson#3
11-20-2012, 07:12 PM
My bet is JPA or Ramsus are the next players to be traded.

I was referring to the trading for Troy Glaus and signing Bengie Molina in the off-season before 2006.

Stress
11-20-2012, 08:11 PM
You're obviously full of ****. We loaded our team in 2006 like we have this off-season. That team looked amazing.....on paper.

Burnett, Ryan and past-prime Glaus is considered loading our team?
That team never looked amazing on paper.
This year's team looks amazing on paper.

Towelie
11-20-2012, 08:16 PM
Burnett, Ryan and past-prime Glaus is considered loading our team?
That team never looked amazing on paper.
This year's team looks amazing on paper.

It sure did look good on paper.

StayOnBoard
11-20-2012, 08:24 PM
It sure did look good on paper.

I agree, it did... so did the 2011 Red Sox - I thought they were going to be ridiculously good after making all those signings. Championships aren't built on paper, that's why you play the games.

Vampirate
11-20-2012, 09:08 PM
It sure did look good on paper.

Well one of those signings was for a reliever, another for a very talented yet very inconsistant pitcher. I'd say Glaus was the best signing out of Burnett, Ryan and Glaus.

Stress
11-20-2012, 10:07 PM
It sure did look good on paper.
really?
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=2006&t=TOR
doesnt scream world series champs, division winner or wild card.

Our current roster definitely reads as division winner or wild card playoff spot.

R. Johnson#3
11-20-2012, 10:38 PM
Burnett, Ryan and past-prime Glaus is considered loading our team?
That team never looked amazing on paper.
This year's team looks amazing on paper.

:laugh:

For the record though. I do believe the team we have now looks better than 2006 but that team still did look good.

koreancabbage
11-21-2012, 12:25 AM
we'll just have to see on how they play. can't put contender if we don't know what we have on the field yet.

Over Da Pence
11-21-2012, 12:32 AM
Giants should win it again

mtf
11-21-2012, 12:39 AM
Giants should win it again

The Giants will win the AL East? Amazing!

iam brett favre
11-21-2012, 03:18 PM
Well they are really going all in. They signed Melky Cabrera afterall.

kokes
11-22-2012, 02:14 AM
They finally have a line-up to contend but that rotation is still full of questions. Only pitcher they have that's consistent is Buehrle, even his usual high 3 ERA could get pushed closer to or above 4 in that division. Johnson is a health risk, but if can stay healthy can be a stud. If Morrow can keep pitching like last year he will be good but even that isn't likely. Then you got Romero who showed some promise but I could easily see him getting smacked around again. Have they mentioned who their #5 will be or is that an open spot young guys are fighting for???

mtf
11-22-2012, 02:36 AM
Have they mentioned who their #5 will be or is that an open spot young guys are fighting for???

Since Drew Hutchison and Kyle Drabek will both be recovering from surgery, J.A. Happ is being penciled in for the 5th starter. They've made no secret that they're looking for more starting pitching though, and not necessarily for the bottom of the rotation. There's rumors that they'll be in the market for another top of the rotation starter.

kokes
11-22-2012, 03:38 AM
I heard they were looking for a front line SP but I don't see them getting one. With all the payroll they've added I doubt they can afford Greinke, Sanchez, Haren or even Dempster. Unless they're going into ultimate win now mode.

Halladay
11-22-2012, 03:53 AM
I heard they were looking for a front line SP but I don't see them getting one. With all the payroll they've added I doubt they can afford Greinke, Sanchez, Haren or even Dempster. Unless they're going into ultimate win now mode.

Why are you assuming it's only possible to get a starter through free agency? especially a high-end guy and the only real high-end guy I see in the 4 you mentioned is Greinke. Sanchez is plain old average,Haren's velocity has dropped considerably along with injuries and Dempster was replacement level once he came to the AL. The pitching market is weak, which is exactly why AA made the trade for JJ and Buehrle as well as picking up plenty of cost controlled guys like Happ along with a hundred BP arms. Free agency is not the best way to go to get pitching. And with all the payroll added, why would you assume there's no money left? a team that adds that much is certainly willing to spend and is owned by the richest company in baseball.

SenorGato
11-22-2012, 08:08 AM
My bet is JPA or Ramsus are the next players to be traded.

Send 'em both to the Cubs.

Halladay
11-22-2012, 08:12 AM
Still don't understand why people think so highly of Arencibia.

LanceUpperCut
11-22-2012, 09:16 AM
You're obviously full of ****. We loaded our team in 2006 like we have this off-season. That team looked amazing.....on paper.

I'm not sure I'd say they looked amazing on paper but yes they looked like a fringe playoff team in 2006 and ended up with 87 wins so they weren't that far off. This team in my eye's is way better on paper especially the hitting. The pitching is close but yes the 06 team had one of the best pitchers in the game at the time.

Roy Halladay >> JJ
Burnett = Morrow
Ted Lilly < Buehrle
Janseen < Romero
Chacin < Happ

Marcum and McGowan were both rookies who did nothing that year.

todu82
11-22-2012, 10:27 AM
They're going to be a lot better next season. Still think they need to add 1 more impact player before they become contenders.

SenorGato
11-22-2012, 12:13 PM
Still don't understand why people think so highly of Arencibia.

Cheap catcher who can catch/play D and hit for some power...Not much not to like.

Twitchy
11-22-2012, 12:54 PM
Cheap catcher who can catch/play D and hit for some power...Not much not to like.

Arencibia can't play D - he improved this year from horrific to below average. It's not like he's a young player either (in terms of development/projection), as he'll be 27 for the 2013 season. Among catchers with 250 PA he's 24th in wRC+ (89). If we push that up to 300 PA he's 20/28 in wRC+. At 350 PA he's 18/25.

He doesn't hit for average, he doesn't get on base, he doesn't play defence. I'm glad that other teams are interested in him, but he's a below average player who doesn't contribute much offensively and is below average defensively.

The high home run totals mask the fact that he's simply not a good hitter. He's not close to being a league average hitter, and for a guy who is considered an offensive minded catcher, his bat is below average compared to other catchers. I just don't see the appeal here.

He's holding the Jays back and the sooner they get rid of him, the better.

the_jon
11-22-2012, 01:06 PM
Forget Arencibia, I don't even want him on the team. Let D'Arnaud start, he'll be 24 in the spring and now is the perfect time to let him get ABs as a starter in the bigs.

rocket
11-22-2012, 01:25 PM
I think so. I'll be rooting for them.

kokes
11-22-2012, 01:31 PM
Why are you assuming it's only possible to get a starter through free agency? especially a high-end guy and the only real high-end guy I see in the 4 you mentioned is Greinke. Sanchez is plain old average,Haren's velocity has dropped considerably along with injuries and Dempster was replacement level once he came to the AL. The pitching market is weak, which is exactly why AA made the trade for JJ and Buehrle as well as picking up plenty of cost controlled guys like Happ along with a hundred BP arms. Free agency is not the best way to go to get pitching. And with all the payroll added, why would you assume there's no money left? a team that adds that much is certainly willing to spend and is owned by the richest company in baseball.

I basically looked at what the Jays have left to trade and it's not too much (unless like I said, they're all in win now mode). I don't think they traded for players so they could flip them in another deal and JP, d, Arnaud or Buck are gonna be able to headline a package to get a top pitcher. Greinke is the only ace out there, but Haren(#2) and Sanchez(#3) are both solid. Haren doesn't have injury problems, he's made 30 starts min. each of the last 9 years. Had soreness in his back last year, not like it was shoulder problems or groin issue. DL stint and came back fine.

The only trade possibility I could even think of for the Jays would be with Tampa, either Davis or Hellickson. Other then that, doesn't seem to be any other team that needs an OK catcher and has good pitching to give up, but I don't see that happening.

They may be owned by the richest company in baseball but that doesn't mean they have unlimited funds. If they did, Prince would not be a Tiger and my guess is Greinke would already be signed. Obviously they've proven this year they are willing to spend more but they already jacked the payroll up to $125M, compared to the $75M i think last year. For the Blue Jays, I don't see them going much higher than that.

Vampirate
11-22-2012, 01:34 PM
I basically looked at what the Jays have left to trade and it's not too much (unless like I said, they're all in win now mode). I don't think they traded for players so they could flip them in another deal and JP, d, Arnaud or Buck are gonna be able to headline a package to get a top pitcher. Greinke is the only ace out there, but Haren(#2) and Sanchez(#3) are both solid. Haren doesn't have injury problems, he's made 30 starts min. each of the last 9 years. Had soreness in his back last year, not like it was shoulder problems or groin issue. DL stint and came back fine.

The only trade possibility I could even think of for the Jays would be with Tampa, either Davis or Hellickson. Other then that, doesn't seem to be any other team that needs an OK catcher and has good pitching to give up, but I don't see that happening.

They may be owned by the richest company in baseball but that doesn't mean they have unlimited funds. If they did, Prince would not be a Tiger and my guess is Greinke would already be signed. Obviously they've proven this year they are willing to spend more but they already jacked the payroll up to $125M, compared to the $75M i think last year. For the Blue Jays, I don't see them going much higher than that.

I think the CEO of the Jays said tha the team was heading to a 140 million dollar payroll.

Of course, as always it remains to be seen what happens.

StayOnBoard
11-22-2012, 06:29 PM
I basically looked at what the Jays have left to trade and it's not too much (unless like I said, they're all in win now mode).


I can't tell if you're serious.... the Jays have a stacked farm system, what, you think because they traded Nicolino and Marisnick they don't have pieces to get something done if they want to? Jays have guys like d'Arnaud, Syndergaard, Sanchez who are all very high ceiling - they also have guys like Roberto Osuna and D.J Davis who are pretty well regarded too. The Jays probably don't want to trade these guys, but they have tons of ammo if they want to use it. That doesn't even include guys on the MLB roster like Arencibia or Rasmus. It's not much.... classic.



I don't think they traded for players so they would flip them in another deal and JP, d, Arnaud or Buck are gonna be able to headline a package to get a top pitcher.


I don't know if you meant to put a "not" in here or not - as putting JPA and Buck in the same breath as d'Arnaud is ridiculous. You do realize Travis d'Arnaud is the best catching prospects in baseball right?? I'm not sure what else to say here, can't comment more until I know more about what your intent was.



Greinke is the only ace out there, but Haren(#2) and Sanchez(#3) are both solid. Haren doesn't have injury problems, he's made 30 starts min. each of the last 9 years. Had soreness in his back last year, not like it was shoulder problems or groin issue. DL stint and came back fine.


I don't think I'd touch Haren, with more and more injuries and his fastball declining the way it is. I'd rather have Mark Buehrle (for real).



The only trade possibility I could even think of for the Jays would be with Tampa, either Davis or Hellickson. Other then that, doesn't seem to be any other team that needs an OK catcher and has good pitching to give up, but I don't see that happening.


So maybe you were serious and you really think d'Arnaud is an "ok catcher". Excellent - please continue.



They may be owned by the richest company in baseball but that doesn't mean they have unlimited funds. If they did, Prince would not be a Tiger and my guess is Greinke would already be signed. Obviously they've proven this year they are willing to spend more but they already jacked the payroll up to $125M, compared to the $75M i think last year. For the Blue Jays, I don't see them going much higher than that.

FWIW Beeston did say payroll could reach the $130-140 range... and they could still move some payroll if they absolutely needed to. Almost everyone in the world knows the Jays aren't done trading yet - it's only November, I'll guarantee you with 100% certainty Toronto makes at least 2 more moves. They won't come close to even touching the Marlins trade, but there will be trades.... 100%

the_jon
11-22-2012, 06:36 PM
Actually, I think Beeston said we could support a payroll of up to 150 mill. I'll try to get a link after I eat.

SportsAndrew25
11-22-2012, 07:13 PM
I think they can be good, but with the Yankees and Rays in the division, I cannot really say they can do so.

Vampirate
11-22-2012, 07:28 PM
I think they can be good, but with the Yankees and Rays in the division, I cannot really say they can do so.

Absolutely fair.

I think Toronto, New York and Tampa could go anywhere from 1-3 in the division.

Apparently the Boston's GM wants to have a large payroll, so who knows what they will do. If they make a big move they could be in it as well.

For next season I have Baltimore last, I don't think they will repeat.

kokes
11-22-2012, 07:31 PM
I can't tell if you're serious.... the Jays have a stacked farm system, what, you think because they traded Nicolino and Marisnick they don't have pieces to get something done if they want to? Jays have guys like d'Arnaud, Syndergaard, Sanchez who are all very high ceiling - they also have guys like Roberto Osuna and D.J Davis who are pretty well regarded too. The Jays probably don't want to trade these guys, but they have tons of ammo if they want to use it. That doesn't even include guys on the MLB roster like Arencibia or Rasmus. It's not much.... classic.




I don't know if you meant to put a "not" in here or not - as putting JPA and Buck in the same breath as d'Arnaud is ridiculous. You do realize Travis d'Arnaud is the best catching prospects in baseball right?? I'm not sure what else to say here, can't comment more until I know more about what your intent was.



I don't think I'd touch Haren, with more and more injuries and his fastball declining the way it is. I'd rather have Mark Buehrle (for real).



So maybe you were serious and you really think d'Arnaud is an "ok catcher". Excellent - please continue.



FWIW Beeston did say payroll could reach the $130-140 range... and they could still move some payroll if they absolutely needed to. Almost everyone in the world knows the Jays aren't done trading yet - it's only November, I'll guarantee you with 100% certainty Toronto makes at least 2 more moves. They won't come close to even touching the Marlins trade, but there will be trades.... 100%
First, I have NO idea why I put d'Arnaud in that category. There's no way that they trade him (I sure wouldn't).

Second, the reason I said they don't have enough is I don't see them trading Syndergaard, Sanchez or Davis. Those are basically going to be their home-grown core players for the future. That's the reason I said...
Originally Posted by kokes View Post
I basically looked at what the Jays have left to trade and it's not too much (unless like I said, they're all in win now mode).
So yes, you take out those 4 and they don't have much. Unless like I stated couple times before, they are in win now mode. If you think JP and Rasmus are going to bring in a impact player or bat good luck.

Third, what do you mean by "more and more injuries" for Haren? In the last 9 years he's only missed 3 starts. His velocity isn't decreasing at a crazy rate and his BB/9 and K/9 are still the same essentially. Buehrle isn't bad, but unless it's 100% Haren is hiding a bunch of injuries that nobody knows about, I'd prefer Haren.

Lastly, I hadn't heard anywhere what they planned on making their payroll. I knew it was going to go up but had no clue that much. I don't know what other trades they need to make other then a pitcher. That is a filthy line-up once you take out JP and add d'Arnaud.

nithanyo
11-22-2012, 07:49 PM
If I was the Jays Id try and land Haren. I dont think we have to give up a top pick since we fell in the bottom 10 and at around 4 yrs/ 60 mill or 5yrs/70mill he might sign

We are a lot more attractive now than 2 weeks ago

torontosports10
11-22-2012, 08:01 PM
Wow, way too ****ing much for Haren.

LanceUpperCut
11-22-2012, 09:33 PM
I say sign Marcum a great 4-5 starter who loves Toronto and probably won't demand to much. I know his health was an issue last year but so is the majority of pitchers out there.

Halladay
11-22-2012, 10:20 PM
Cheap catcher who can catch/play D and hit for some power...Not much not to like.
But he can't. I guarantee you if the guy hit 7 home runs a year then he wouldn't be deemed valuable from outside fans. He's really not that good and he really hasn't improved much at D. He's gotten slightly better but considering how bad he was before, anything would be an improvement.

Arencibia can't play D - he improved this year from horrific to below average. It's not like he's a young player either (in terms of development/projection), as he'll be 27 for the 2013 season. Among catchers with 250 PA he's 24th in wRC+ (89). If we push that up to 300 PA he's 20/28 in wRC+. At 350 PA he's 18/25.

He doesn't hit for average, he doesn't get on base, he doesn't play defence. I'm glad that other teams are interested in him, but he's a below average player who doesn't contribute much offensively and is below average defensively.

The high home run totals mask the fact that he's simply not a good hitter. He's not close to being a league average hitter, and for a guy who is considered an offensive minded catcher, his bat is below average compared to other catchers. I just don't see the appeal here.

He's holding the Jays back and the sooner they get rid of him, the better.

Took the words right out of my mouth. D'arnaud blows him out of the water in every category. It's not even close. Obviously I'm saying this with confidence considering he hasn't played a big league game yet but he, with questions, projects to be a hell of a lot better then Arencibia.

Halladay
11-22-2012, 10:31 PM
I basically looked at what the Jays have left to trade and it's not too much (unless like I said, they're all in win now mode). I don't think they traded for players so they could flip them in another deal and JP, d, Arnaud or Buck are gonna be able to headline a package to get a top pitcher. Greinke is the only ace out there, but Haren(#2) and Sanchez(#3) are both solid. Haren doesn't have injury problems, he's made 30 starts min. each of the last 9 years. Had soreness in his back last year, not like it was shoulder problems or groin issue. DL stint and came back fine.

The only trade possibility I could even think of for the Jays would be with Tampa, either Davis or Hellickson. Other then that, doesn't seem to be any other team that needs an OK catcher and has good pitching to give up, but I don't see that happening.

They may be owned by the richest company in baseball but that doesn't mean they have unlimited funds. If they did, Prince would not be a Tiger and my guess is Greinke would already be signed. Obviously they've proven this year they are willing to spend more but they already jacked the payroll up to $125M, compared to the $75M i think last year. For the Blue Jays, I don't see them going much higher than that.

You do know that the Jays have plenty left to trade right? Hell, they didn't even deal their best prospect in the deal with the Marlins. They dealt their third best pitching prospect. The farm is loaded and is still a top farm in baseball. If the Jays wanna make a deal, they could pretty much get any available guy they wanted. Haren has had nagging injuries, which you don't seem concerned over and maybe they shouldn't be a concern at all but, and this is a big but, look at the consistent drop in velocity. That is a concern. Can a Haren throwing under 90MPH on a start-to-start basis be effective? There's also no way Tampa hands us a starter, being in the same division. Giving the Jays a starter could be shooting themselves in the foot. The team I'd target is the Mets

. Arencibia for Dickey or along those lines. Makes perfect sense for us. Fielder is a Tiger because he got a ridiculous contract. That deal seems great now, and I wanted him here but given the pricetag, 9 years over $200 million? for a guy who's gonna have to DH in a few years? that's a tough pill to swallow no matter how you slice it. If he were a guy who could actually play a position like the outfield or third base, you could definitely make a case.

Dol-Fan
11-22-2012, 10:41 PM
You do know that the Jays have plenty left to trade right? Hell, they didn't even deal their best prospect in the deal with the Marlins. They dealt their third best pitching prospect....

arguable: could certainly place Nicolino below Osuna, and I've even seen him below Norris after Norris' terrible season and Stroman.

kokes
11-22-2012, 11:16 PM
You do know that the Jays have plenty left to trade right? Hell, they didn't even deal their best prospect in the deal with the Marlins. They dealt their third best pitching prospect. The farm is loaded and is still a top farm in baseball. If the Jays wanna make a deal, they could pretty much get any available guy they wanted. Haren has had nagging injuries, which you don't seem concerned over and maybe they shouldn't be a concern at all but, and this is a big but, look at the consistent drop in velocity. That is a concern. Can a Haren throwing under 90MPH on a start-to-start basis be effective? There's also no way Tampa hands us a starter, being in the same division. Giving the Jays a starter could be shooting themselves in the foot. The team I'd target is the Mets

. Arencibia for Dickey or along those lines. Makes perfect sense for us. Fielder is a Tiger because he got a ridiculous contract. That deal seems great now, and I wanted him here but given the pricetag, 9 years over $200 million? for a guy who's gonna have to DH in a few years? that's a tough pill to swallow no matter how you slice it. If he were a guy who could actually play a position like the outfield or third base, you could definitely make a case.

There is NO WAY any GM in baseball would make that trade. I'm no fan of Dickey but even I wouldn't do that lol. All JP can do is hit some homers. He can't hit for average, his D is poo and it's not going to get any better.

His contract is huge but I can't say I'm too mad about it. DD and Illitch want to win now and that was the best way to do it. Assembled the most feared 3-4 combo in baseball, possibly one of if not THE best in history. As far as him moving to DH, that was the plan all along when they signed him. Once Miggy can't cover 3B(probly in 4 or 5 years) they slide him to 1B and move Prince. Him as a DH would be the same thing as Big Papi, there to hit home runs and give protection.

And if you look at previous comment you will see my reasoning for saying why they don't have much left.

Halladay
11-22-2012, 11:35 PM
There is NO WAY any GM in baseball would make that trade. I'm no fan of Dickey but even I wouldn't do that lol. All JP can do is hit some homers. He can't hit for average, his D is poo and it's not going to get any better.

His contract is huge but I can't say I'm too mad about it. DD and Illitch want to win now and that was the best way to do it. Assembled the most feared 3-4 combo in baseball, possibly one of if not THE best in history. As far as him moving to DH, that was the plan all along when they signed him. Once Miggy can't cover 3B(probly in 4 or 5 years) they slide him to 1B and move Prince. Him as a DH would be the same thing as Big Papi, there to hit home runs and give protection.

And if you look at previous comment you will see my reasoning for saying why they don't have much left.
Mets fans seem to like it but I've also stated it would take more but Arencibia would be the only current roster player going back. Prince and Cabrera are pretty good but I wouldn't say they're among the best in history, there are a hundred examples of great 3-4 guys. Hell, half the lineups in baseball can throw some pretty good 3-4's at you. I'd even argue that the Jays 3-4 is just as good.

EE 4.6 WAR
Joey Bats(last full season) 7.2


Fielder-4.4
Cabrera-6.9


The Jays certainly get much more value of out of their 3-4 as well.

mtf
11-22-2012, 11:40 PM
Assembled the most feared 3-4 combo in baseball, possibly one of if not THE best in history.

I think Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig might have that distinction. :)

StayOnBoard
11-23-2012, 12:20 AM
Mets fans seem to like it but I've also stated it would take more but Arencibia would be the only current roster player going back. Prince and Cabrera are pretty good but I wouldn't say they're among the best in history, there are a hundred examples of great 3-4 guys. Hell, half the lineups in baseball can throw some pretty good 3-4's at you. I'd even argue that the Jays 3-4 is just as good.

EE 4.6 WAR
Joey Bats(last full season) 7.2


Fielder-4.4
Cabrera-6.9


The Jays certainly get much more value of out of their 3-4 as well.

Combined cost of Blue Jays 3-4 hitters: 94 million
Combined cost of Tigers 3-4 hitters: 399.3 million

:D

lajoie
11-23-2012, 01:05 AM
Combined cost of Blue Jays 3-4 hitters: 94 million
Combined cost of Tigers 3-4 hitters: 399.3 million

:D

Meh, at least they made it to the world series

kokes
11-23-2012, 01:41 AM
I think Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig might have that distinction. :)

Ya you got a point there lol Disregard the history statement, but can easily say now and recently. IMO

kokes
11-23-2012, 01:49 AM
Combined cost of Blue Jays 3-4 hitters: 94 million
Combined cost of Tigers 3-4 hitters: 399.3 million

:D

If Encarnacion or Bautista were on the free agent market this year, given their ages, would probably both be getting 5+/$80MM. Obviously Bautista would get more I would assume. Add on another 5 years onto that, that's pretty close. And for the money, I would certainly pay the extra for Miggy and Prince.

Granted I think Princes' contract is a little steep for that long but I'm not mad either.

albertajaysfan
11-23-2012, 04:35 AM
I say yes for two reasons.

If the season started now we would be contenders. And I also think that something else will happen this offseason to put the finishing touches on this lineup. We are obviously taking a run at it. You don't make that huge trade and then not put the finishing pieces together.

This trade reminds me of the Alomar and Carter trade. Would be awesome if it had the same impact. With those two on board next off season we added Jack Morris and Dave Winfield for pitching depth and DH. Perhaps we could accomplish all those steps in one off season although that is probably asking a lot.


@Kokes

Keep this in mind when dealing will all of us Toronto sports fans. We are in desperate need of a winner to cheer for. There is a reason we set record attendance figures in the early 90s. We had a winner. In Toronto we have 3 of the big 4 sports. Raptors are well the Raptors, the Leafs haven't won a cup in 45 years with no playoffs for 8 I believe and the Jays nothing for 20 years. We just want a team to cheer for in the playoffs that isn't the CFL.

Hell the NFL team that plays up here is the Bills for crying out loud.

Needless to say we can be easily excited.

Halladay
11-23-2012, 04:46 AM
If Encarnacion or Bautista were on the free agent market this year, given their ages, would probably both be getting 5+/$80MM. Obviously Bautista would get more I would assume. Add on another 5 years onto that, that's pretty close. And for the money, I would certainly pay the extra for Miggy and Prince.

Granted I think Princes' contract is a little steep for that long but I'm not mad either.

Based on what? The team you root for?

1hardcore
11-23-2012, 05:02 AM
Not ready to crown them AL east champs myself but they are definitely a much better team

it will only come down to health because the talent is there

THIS x a million

We've seen it many times before...

Doesnt mean i wont cheer because i will,but you can't judge a book by it's cover.

StayOnBoard
11-23-2012, 08:22 AM
Meh, at least they made it to the world series

Yeah, that's true. Remind me, what trophy do they give for second place? I forget....

StayOnBoard
11-23-2012, 08:30 AM
If Encarnacion or Bautista were on the free agent market this year, given their ages, would probably both be getting 5+/$80MM. Obviously Bautista would get more I would assume. Add on another 5 years onto that, that's pretty close. And for the money, I would certainly pay the extra for Miggy and Prince.

Granted I think Princes' contract is a little steep for that long but I'm not mad either.

Of course they would - they'd get more than that even.... If Bautista hit the market he'd get close to double his salary (not annually but in total).

I'm not sure your' point though or what you are arguing about. The Jays are getting a steal value wise for their 3-4 hitter, but yet, you'll still take Miggy/Prince because they cost 4x and much with around the same production?

Makes sense...

kokes
11-23-2012, 12:24 PM
Of course they would - they'd get more than that even.... If Bautista hit the market he'd get close to double his salary (not annually but in total).

I'm not sure your' point though or what you are arguing about. The Jays are getting a steal value wise for their 3-4 hitter, but yet, you'll still take Miggy/Prince because they cost 4x and much with around the same production?

Makes sense...

My point is that the only reason Bautista and Edwin are that much cheaper is because they signed their extensions at bad times. If both of them we on the market this year, their salaires would get a huge raise pushing their cost close to that of Miggy and Prince (but I agree Princes' contract is a little insane).

Talking about production, you can't compare them. Both Miggy and Prince can hit .300 with 30+ homers, while Edwin had ONE good year and Bautista only hits homers. I'm not taking anything away from Bautista, the guy hits bombs but you can't say he's on the same level as Miggy. If you're sold on Edwin doing that ever again you're going to be waiting a long time.

Miggy + Prince = Best hitter in baseball + 2nd best MAYBE 3rd Lefty bat

Edwin + Bautista = one-year wonder + 50 homers

Based on that, I'd take the guys that I know for a fact will hit every year.

LanceUpperCut
11-23-2012, 12:35 PM
My point is that the only reason Bautista and Edwin are that much cheaper is because they signed their extensions at bad times. If both of them we on the market this year, their salaires would get a huge raise pushing their cost close to that of Miggy and Prince (but I agree Princes' contract is a little insane).

Talking about production, you can't compare them. Both Miggy and Prince can hit .300 with 30+ homers, while Edwin had ONE good year and Bautista only hits homers. I'm not taking anything away from Bautista, the guy hits bombs but you can't say he's on the same level as Miggy. If you're sold on Edwin doing that ever again you're going to be waiting a long time.

Miggy + Prince = Best hitter in baseball + 2nd best MAYBE 3rd Lefty bat

Edwin + Bautista = one-year wonder + 50 homers

Based on that, I'd take the guys that I know for a fact will hit every year.

Yeah they said the same thing about Joey bats after his 2010 year only to to post a 1.056 ops and 43 dingers in 2011

Twitchy
11-23-2012, 12:37 PM
My point is that the only reason Bautista and Edwin are that much cheaper is because they signed their extensions at bad times. If both of them we on the market this year, their salaires would get a huge raise pushing their cost close to that of Miggy and Prince (but I agree Princes' contract is a little insane).

Talking about production, you can't compare them. Both Miggy and Prince can hit .300 with 30+ homers, while Edwin had ONE good year and Bautista only hits homers. I'm not taking anything away from Bautista, the guy hits bombs but you can't say he's on the same level as Miggy. If you're sold on Edwin doing that ever again you're going to be waiting a long time.

Miggy + Prince = Best hitter in baseball + 2nd best MAYBE 3rd Lefty bat

Edwin + Bautista = one-year wonder + 50 homers

Based on that, I'd take the guys that I know for a fact will hit every year.

Bautista doesn't only hit home runs. He's got a phenomenal on base %. Over the past few years he's been nearly as productive as Cabrera. Since 2010 Cabrera has a 171 wRC+ with Bautista at 166. You absolutely can say he's on Cabrera's level.

Encarnacion was as productive as Fielder, but the question is obviously whether he can sustain it or whether he'll regress. A lot of people said Bautista would regress too, and he's managed to produce at that level. We'll have to wait and see.

Right now these are the top two 3/4 combos in the AL. Should be exciting to see which pair has the better year.

kokes
11-23-2012, 12:40 PM
Yeah they said the same thing about Joey bats after his 2010 year only to to post a 1.056 ops and 43 dingers in 2011

You have a point, I guess it's a wait and see game right now but IMO Edwin won't come close to 40 homers 100+ rbis again.

Dol-Fan
11-23-2012, 12:45 PM
I put this together late in the season re: Encarnacion's breakout. I think it's sustainable. Here are the reasons:


Is Edwin Encarnacion’s success sustainable? The numbers say yes. Let’s take a look at why that is.

The first thing that we might look at during a breakout season for any given player is their average on balls in play (BABIP). Are they merely the beneficiary of increased luck? Are more balls squeaking through the holes than in previous seasons?

In Encarnacion’s case, the answer is no. His BABIP for the season is .283, which is exactly the same as his career average of, well, .283. So although Encarnacion is hitting for a better average than he has in his career (2012 average of .293 versus career average of .265), he is not doing it because more balls are falling between fielders. He is doing it because he has been tearing the cover off of the ball.

One thing that has changed for Edwin Encarnacion has been his walk rate, which is up to 12.1% from a career rate of 9.3%. Encarnacion has been more patient at the plate, evidenced by his improved plate discipline statistics. Encarnacion is swinging at just 24% of pitches out of the strike zone, a marked reduction from the last two years, where he has swung at 29.3% and 30.5% of pitches out of the zone. He is swinging at fewer pitches, enduring fewer first pitch strikes, and swinging and missing less often.

In addition to changes in his plate discipline, Encarnacion has also benefited in the power department from a mechanical adjustment made this past offseason. Encarnacion is now following through with both hands, as opposed to his characteristic one-handed follow through of the past.

Because of this new follow through, Encarnacion is hitting for more power than he has in the past. Though his line drive rate is down, his fly ball rate is up substantially, and his ground ball rate has also declined. He is hitting far more home runs per fly ball (18.3%) than he has for his career (12.9%). Though home run per fly ball rate (HR/FB) can fluctuate from season-to-season, this is a statistically significant difference for Encarnacion. This tells us that it is very unlikely (less than a 5% chance) that the difference in HR/FB rate is merely a random fluctuation.


Fielder/Cabrera have a few things: the R/L factor, and experience. I don't know to what extent the former matters, and if Bautista/EE keep it up next year, the latter won't matter either.

treeleaf
11-23-2012, 12:59 PM
My point is that the only reason Bautista and Edwin are that much cheaper is because they signed their extensions at bad times. If both of them we on the market this year, their salaires would get a huge raise pushing their cost close to that of Miggy and Prince (but I agree Princes' contract is a little insane).

Talking about production, you can't compare them. Both Miggy and Prince can hit .300 with 30+ homers, while Edwin had ONE good year and Bautista only hits homers. I'm not taking anything away from Bautista, the guy hits bombs but you can't say he's on the same level as Miggy. If you're sold on Edwin doing that ever again you're going to be waiting a long time.

Miggy + Prince = Best hitter in baseball + 2nd best MAYBE 3rd Lefty bat

Edwin + Bautista = one-year wonder + 50 homers


Based on that, I'd take the guys that I know for a fact will hit every year.

You said you werent mad that you were paying 300 million more for the same production?

Seems like your mad here.

StayOnBoard
11-23-2012, 01:16 PM
My point is that the only reason Bautista and Edwin are that much cheaper is because they signed their extensions at bad times. If both of them we on the market this year, their salaires would get a huge raise pushing their cost close to that of Miggy and Prince (but I agree Princes' contract is a little insane).

Talking about production, you can't compare them. Both Miggy and Prince can hit .300 with 30+ homers, while Edwin had ONE good year and Bautista only hits homers. I'm not taking anything away from Bautista, the guy hits bombs but you can't say he's on the same level as Miggy. If you're sold on Edwin doing that ever again you're going to be waiting a long time.

Miggy + Prince = Best hitter in baseball + 2nd best MAYBE 3rd Lefty bat

Edwin + Bautista = one-year wonder + 50 homers

Based on that, I'd take the guys that I know for a fact will hit every year.

Wow I'm done with this conversation as you really have a bias I couldn't crack through if I had a jackhammer. No matter what stats are shown you'll fly back with some nonsense like I have in bold. Question - you do follow stats right? I mean from players who don't play in Detroit?

hendrix
11-24-2012, 11:36 PM
You have a point, I guess it's a wait and see game right now but IMO Edwin won't come close to 40 homers 100+ rbis again.

Why wouldn't he come close to 100+ RBI?

RBI has very little to do with the player. They are mostly to do with who's in front of you. He got 110 last year while having guys with OBP%'s of .288, .275, .300, .324, .313, .314 ahead of him (rotating in and out of the 1, 2, 3 hole). The only guy that was higher than that was Bautista who only played half a year.

This year he has Reyes, Cabreara, and potentially a full year of Bautista. That should give him significantly more RBI opportunities, which would mean that even if he regresses he should do fine in a stat like RBI's. Heck Joe Carter averaged 103 RBI's / 650 PAS over his whole career with a career .770 OPS. Doesn't take much with the right guys in front of you.

kokes
11-25-2012, 02:05 AM
Wow I'm done with this conversation as you really have a bias I couldn't crack through if I had a jackhammer. No matter what stats are shown you'll fly back with some nonsense like I have in bold. Question - you do follow stats right? I mean from players who don't play in Detroit?

No I'm not bias, I'm a realist. I follow stats plenty close enough obviously you do not. IF you did, you certainly wouldn't be arguing me in stats Jose/Edwin vs. Miggy/Prince.

When you look at Prince and Miggys, year in and year out they both put up very similar numbers. That's what makes them great hitters (Prince not as much but compared to most). Every year you can depend on Miggy giving you .300+, 100+ rbis, 40 doubles, .400 OBP. Prince .280+, 100+ rbis, .400 OBP.

Bautista is great at what he does and that's hit home-runs, I never took that away from him. He hits home runs. He will hit 40-50 homers, 100+ rbis, OBP will be around .370,.400 if lucky, (woopty do). Edwin might hit .280 again, probably more like .270-.275 with 20 homers, and lets say 100 rbis, with an outstanding .350 OBP.

Now I know you're probably going to look up career stats and I hope you do. That way you can finally learn what consistency in baseball is, and in baseball, consistency is a HUGE factor. So, once you look everything up, feel free to post their stats and give a reasonable argument as how you can put them in the same class as Miggy and Prince. Congrats, one good year and now Edwin is a top hitter, how does that make sense? Unless you base things on a year by year basis, but then that shows you know nothing about baseball.

So please, show me where their stats are ANYWHERE comparable. Career numbers, season numbers, don't matter, I'd like to learn.

kokes
11-25-2012, 02:09 AM
Why wouldn't he come close to 100+ RBI?

RBI has very little to do with the player. They are mostly to do with who's in front of you. He got 110 last year while having guys with OBP%'s of .288, .275, .300, .324, .313, .314 ahead of him (rotating in and out of the 1, 2, 3 hole). The only guy that was higher than that was Bautista who only played half a year.

This year he has Reyes, Cabreara, and potentially a full year of Bautista. That should give him significantly more RBI opportunities, which would mean that even if he regresses he should do fine in a stat like RBI's. Heck Joe Carter averaged 103 RBI's / 650 PAS over his whole career with a career .770 OPS. Doesn't take much with the right guys in front of you.

That's true, I guess 100 rbis is a possibility for him but I'm not sold after 1 year like it seems some are. Until he puts up a similar year he's still the same old Edwin. If I were a Jays fan, I wouldn't get my hopes up for another season close to .280 and 40 homers. Could it happen? Sure, maybe a late bloomer, but odds are not likely. Also, you need to look at how hot of a year he had and situations where he came up with big hits. Where, as in the case every other year, he doesn't produce when he gets rbi opportunities.

treeleaf
11-25-2012, 02:13 AM
That's true, I guess 100 rbis is a possibility for him but I'm not sold after 1 year like it seems some are. Until he puts up a similar year he's still the same old Edwin. If I were a Jays fan, I wouldn't get my hopes up for another season close to .280 and 40 homers. Could it happen? Sure, maybe a late bloomer, but odds are not likely. Also, you need to look at how hot of a year he had and situations where he came up with big hits. Where, as in the case every other year, he doesn't produce when he gets rbi opportunities.

your talking like the guy is 35.

HES 28

metswon69
11-25-2012, 02:22 AM
your talking like the guy is 35.

HES 28

You can say he developed later or is peaking currently but the truth is it could have just as well been an aberration this season for Encarnacion.

His SLG was almost 80 points higher than his career average, his WRC+ was 152 last year (career average 114), his ISO was 70 points higher than his career average, and his wOBA was 43 points higher than his career average last year.

He had an exceptional season in 2012 but there is a pretty decent possibility it could have also just been a career year for him.

kokes
11-25-2012, 02:30 AM
your talking like the guy is 35.

HES 28

I'm not referring to anyone's age. I'm talking strictly stats and previous performance. Even if you bring in age, considering when Edwin started in Cincy he was a top prospect for them with high hopes, for him to have taken this long is a late bloomer.

statquo
11-25-2012, 05:05 AM
You can say he developed later or is peaking currently but the truth is it could have just as well been an aberration this season for Encarnacion.

His SLG was almost 80 points higher than his career average, his WRC+ was 152 last year (career average 114), his ISO was 70 points higher than his career average, and his wOBA was 43 points higher than his career average last year.

He had an exceptional season in 2012 but there is a pretty decent possibility it could have also just been a career year for him.

didnt everyone say this about bautista?

metswon69
11-25-2012, 05:11 AM
didnt everyone say this about bautista?

Are we comparing Encarnacion to Bautista all of a sudden?

Let's see him have this type of power next year and then yeah the consensus will start to change.

Halladay
11-25-2012, 05:20 AM
You can say he developed later or is peaking currently but the truth is it could have just as well been an aberration this season for Encarnacion.

His SLG was almost 80 points higher than his career average, his WRC+ was 152 last year (career average 114), his ISO was 70 points higher than his career average, and his wOBA was 43 points higher than his career average last year.

He had an exceptional season in 2012 but there is a pretty decent possibility it could have also just been a career year for him.
I agree completely but Edwin always had that in him. I have no stats to back this up because it's completely opinion based but he was always a guy who had this potential. Coming into his prime, it's not a complete shock for him to do what he did last season. And it wouldn't be a shock if he duplicated it. In all honesty, if AA thought he wasn't capable of doing it again, he would have dealt him. You can't survive in the AL without a DH and a first basemen. Needless to say, I'm not positive EE duplicates last season but I sure as hell hope he does it again. He's a strange fellow, especially when you look at the splits regarding positions with him.


didnt everyone say this about bautista?
Why does every Jays fan do this? Jose is a rare gem, the odds of finding another Jose are slim to none. Lets not pretend we didn't hit the lottery with Joey Bats.

statquo
11-25-2012, 05:24 AM
Why does every Jays fan do this? Jose is a rare gem, the odds of finding another Jose are slim to none. Lets not pretend we didn't hit the lottery with Joey Bats.

Why not? Its essentially the same thing. EE changed his swing, had better plate discipline and got to swing the bat regularly. We hit the lottery with Bautista but we also stuck with EE to unlock his potential. Nobody says he's a future MVP candidate but the same adjustments and time were given to EE. Why is this different?

metswon69
11-25-2012, 05:29 AM
Why does every Jays fan do this? Jose is a rare gem, the odds of finding another Jose are slim to none. Lets not pretend we didn't hit the lottery with Joey Bats.

At least you are humble enough to admit that. :D

As for Encarnacion, you could be right.

I could still see him hitting 30-32 homers (in that neighborhood of numbers) next year, he was a top prospect with the Reds and he has shown home run potential before with 26 homers in 2008.

We'll see.

Halladay
11-25-2012, 05:58 AM
Why not? Its essentially the same thing. EE changed his swing, had better plate discipline and got to swing the bat regularly. We hit the lottery with Bautista but we also stuck with EE to unlock his potential. Nobody says he's a future MVP candidate but the same adjustments and time were given to EE. Why is this different?

Lightning doesn't strike the same place twice. Just because it happened once doesn't mean it'll happen again. EE had a great year, without question, and I hope we see him produce the same way next year but lets not kid ourselves, Jose Bautista is one of a kind so to speak. How many guys go from average players to MVP candidates overnight? extremely rare.


At least you are humble enough to admit that. :D

As for Encarnacion, you could be right.

I could still see him hitting 30-32 homers (in that neighborhood of numbers) next year, he was a top prospect with the Reds and he has shown home run potential before with 26 homers in 2008.

We'll see.
I think EE will put up a solid number, in the 30-40 home run range but, BUT if he can put up the .384 OBP he put up last season, that's what we need. If there's a high OBP hitting behind Bautista and in front of Lawrie(or someone else) that's where this team will produce. If things end up like we hope, we'll have the best offense in the AL. Last year, prior to the entire team dropping like flies, we had the second best offense in the AL only a few runs behind the Yankees. I don't think most people comprehend just how good the offense of this team can be. A team last season who had a hole in LF and at SS. Two holes filled by Reyes and Cabrera. If this team doesn't score next season, I sure as hell won't be blaming our GM. The speed and power is there, possibly more so than any team in baseball.