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nickdymez
11-10-2012, 10:44 AM
Because it doesn't look like its happening this year. His numbers are MVP like (Even though its early) and i dont really see him slowing down. His fg% is up as well...

Gators123
11-10-2012, 10:45 AM
Tuesday.

StarvingKnick22
11-10-2012, 10:47 AM
Even MJ declined. So, yes.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-10-2012, 10:47 AM
:catfight: in 3,2,1,...

3ballbomber
11-10-2012, 10:47 AM
day after tomorrow

nickdymez
11-10-2012, 10:53 AM
Even MJ declined. So, yes.

I asked when do you think?

theheatles
11-10-2012, 10:56 AM
The blood transfusion or w/e he got done in Germany seems to be helping him. The assumption that Kobe would be done after x amount of years in the NBA was ridiculous. Whether you were in the NBA or in college you were going to be pushing your body to the max in practice or games.

Jordan was in his second tier prime in his mid 30s and there is no reason to not think Kobe can do something similar, although a championship will be much more difficult.

I guess once Kobe is 36 going on 37, he'll be nearly unrecognizable, he could still be effective but will play with a reduced role.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-10-2012, 11:02 AM
The Curious Case of Kobe Bryant...

KnicksorBust
11-10-2012, 11:02 AM
Well in my opinion he's already declined. Last year proved it. The amount of shots he needed to get to his Kobe #'s was staggering. Hopefully he uses this season as an opportunity to take a step back. Let Nash run the show and save himself for the 4th quarter. I think we can all agree what he's doing now is an aberration.

Iron24th
11-10-2012, 11:09 AM
Maybe in 2014

tnewkirk
11-10-2012, 11:10 AM
Well in my opinion he's already declined. Last year proved it. The amount of shots he needed to get to his Kobe #'s was staggering. Hopefully he uses this season as an opportunity to take a step back. Let Nash run the show and save himself for the 4th quarter. I think we can all agree what he's doing now is an aberration.

agree, he's past his prime and is on the decline slowly but surely.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-10-2012, 11:12 AM
Fight! Fight! Fight!

Kashmir13579
11-10-2012, 11:23 AM
He has been on the decline! Look at his numbers last year.

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 11:51 AM
Kobe clearly hasn't been in his Prime since 2010 and I thought his 2011 and 2012 seasons were pretty crappy.

This year he has been very impressive so far however you think he is an MVP candidate?
I don't think so.

There is more to the game then just individual scoring.

He has been terrible defensively, he is turning the ball over at a terrible rate and he is barely creating for others at all.

xxplayerxx23
11-10-2012, 11:53 AM
He is very efficent right now, but last year what he shoot 43% or something like that. I still expect 25-5-3 type numbers on 45% shooting, something in that range.

Faneik
11-10-2012, 12:04 PM
Fight! Fight! Fight!

don't you have some cartoons to watch?

Lakers4life08
11-10-2012, 12:05 PM
Lebron will decline first,Kobe still has 5 years minimum as top 5 nba player

Chavacano
11-10-2012, 12:07 PM
He's been declining for the past couple of years. It's jut not that noticeable because it's not steep but a steady one.

justinnum1
11-10-2012, 12:09 PM
lakers forum

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 12:14 PM
Lebron will decline first,Kobe still has 5 years minimum as top 5 nba player

Kobe hasn't been a Top 5 NBA player since 2009.

justinnum1
11-10-2012, 12:14 PM
Kobe hasn't been a Top 5 NBA player since 2009.

run for cover

Lakeshow24KB
11-10-2012, 12:20 PM
Kobe hasn't been a Top 5 NBA player since 2009.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

LA_Raiders
11-10-2012, 01:01 PM
May be in 2-3 years. Once hiscontract is up.

Hellcrooner
11-10-2012, 01:02 PM
someone should check the numbers of players that go AGAINST him when he is deffending to get his answer.
Hes been declining for a while on that end.

xxplayerxx23
11-10-2012, 01:05 PM
Kobe hasn't been a Top 5 NBA player since 2009.

lol went too far, but I would agree he isn't top 5 anymore

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 01:06 PM
lol went too far, but I would agree he isn't top 5 anymore

I don't think so.

2010 is debatable but he clearly wasn't Top 5 in 2011 and 2012.

NBAfan4life
11-10-2012, 01:19 PM
Well in my opinion he's already declined. Last year proved it. The amount of shots he needed to get to his Kobe #'s was staggering. Hopefully he uses this season as an opportunity to take a step back. Let Nash run the show and save himself for the 4th quarter. I think we can all agree what he's doing now is an aberration.

He has declined a bit and there is no shame in that. he is still a excellent player, but specifically to the bolded that is why they lost to the Thunder last year. The last 5 minutes they would deviate from the game plan and lose leads to Iso Kobe plays. I believe they lost 1 or 2 games to that style of play. They may of lost anyway but we will never know.


Kobe clearly hasn't been in his Prime since 2010 and I thought his 2011 and 2012 seasons were pretty crappy.

This year he has been very impressive so far however you think he is an MVP candidate?
I don't think so.

There is more to the game then just individual scoring.

He has been terrible defensively, he is turning the ball over at a terrible rate and he is barely creating for others at all.

The offense they run isn't geared for him to create for others. Kobe's game needs to evolve like it has so far. I hope he keeps playing like this, and most of you have been screaming for his usage to go down and better shot selection. So far it has, I hope he continues the trend. His defense is slipping that is because he has lost a step. It isn't Kobe's fault coaches put in on the all defensive team and there are hardly any smart Laker fans that think he actually should be there.

I like the way he has been playing. My ultimate hope for Kobe was his assists to go up because of turning down bad shots. That would mean his shots per game would go down and most likely lead to a better FG percentage. So far that has happened.

DreamShaker
11-10-2012, 01:19 PM
The bigger question is "how long does he want to play". I really think he might retire in the next few years. Hes been in the NBA since he was 18. That is a LONG time to push your body that much.

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 01:27 PM
I like the way he has been playing. My ultimate hope for Kobe was his assists to go up because of turning down bad shots. That would mean his shots per game would go down and most likely lead to a better FG percentage. So far that has happened.

I do also.
I think he is in my Top 10 so far... but MVP candidate no.

There are a handful or more players that have been better then him so far.

Still at this stage even to be Top 10 is amazing.

dnewguy
11-10-2012, 01:33 PM
Kobe declined 2 years ago. He's terrible against good teams

NBAfan4life
11-10-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm not going to call anyone a MVP when their team has twice as many games as they won. I just hope he doesn't revert to old habits. He is my all time favorite player, so he needs more of a Nash mentality and less of a Jordon mindset for him to continue to be successful and finish a already stellar career.

b@llhog24
11-10-2012, 01:38 PM
Whichever year the Lakers played the Hornets in the playoffs.

TheSource
11-10-2012, 01:38 PM
Kobe clearly hasn't been in his Prime since 2010 and I thought his 2011 and 2012 seasons were pretty crappy.

This year he has been very impressive so far however you think he is an MVP candidate?
I don't think so.

There is more to the game then just individual scoring.

He has been terrible defensively, he is turning the ball over at a terrible rate and he is barely creating for others at all.

Were you actually watching his games? He's been getting the ball to his teammates when they're wide open, and they just haven't been making their shots. Dwight getting fouled whenever Kobe dishes it in to him is also a factor, since he doesn't get assists for FTs.

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 01:43 PM
Were you actually watching his games? He's been getting the ball to his teammates when they're wide open, and they just haven't been making their shots. Dwight getting fouled whenever Kobe dishes it in to him is also a factor, since he doesn't get assists for FTs.

Fair enough.
That was one of my more minor criticisms of him anyway.

Overall like I said I have been very impressed by his play and have him in my current (yet premature) top 10.

RLundi
11-10-2012, 01:43 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Of course you'd find that hilarious :rolleyes:

Kobe is not a top 5 player anymore and he hasn't been there for at least a couple seasons. LeBron, Wade (maybe besides last season), Chris Paul, Dwight Howard and Durant have all been better than Kobe. Even Derrick Rose might've been in the discussion the past 2 seasons were it not for injuries.

Just because you shoot a lot doesn't make you an elite player. His efficiency has degenerated in recent years. Hopefully I don't have to tell you that.

JollyRanch
11-10-2012, 01:47 PM
Just because you shoot a lot doesn't make you an elite player. His efficiency has degenerated in recent years. Hopefully I don't have to tell you that.

What do you mean: "In recent years"?

Yes, he shot a poor FG% last season (43%) but prior to that he's been at 45%...his career average.

IndyRealist
11-10-2012, 01:54 PM
About 2 years ago. His performance this year is in a very small number of games. It doesn't prove anything unless he sustains it for the entire year, plus playoffs.

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 01:55 PM
2011 :
1. Lebron
2. Wade
3. Dirk
4. Rose
5. Dwight
6. Durant

2012 :
1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Dwight (b4 injury)
4. Rose (b4 injury)
5. Wade

RLundi
11-10-2012, 01:56 PM
What do you mean: "In recent years"?

Yes, he shot a poor FG% last season (43%) but prior to that he's been at 45%...his career average.

Efficiency doesn't just refer to field goal percentage. His PER from last year and 2010 were his lowest since his fourth season in the league and lower than his 23.5 career average. Not to mention his eFG% and true shooting were the worst of his career. He's not top 5 anymore, he's been eclipsed.

JollyRanch
11-10-2012, 02:14 PM
A hollinger rating? lol

kobebabe
11-10-2012, 02:23 PM
when he wishes to

JLynn943
11-10-2012, 02:35 PM
I think he'll start declining a couple of years ago. No one in their right mind can think he's as good as he used to be - especially if you factor in defense.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-10-2012, 02:40 PM
Many of these fans don't watch Lakers games that start 7:40 pm on the Pacific coast (aka 10:40 pm on the East Coast. I mean, do you really expect these little kids to be up all night past 1 am to be watching the Lakers on League Pass or online?

No, they're bedtime is 9-9:30 pm East coast time most likely. By that time, a typical Laker game hasn't even started yet.


All they do is wake up the next morning and go on their laptops or smart phones and go to espn.com/nba/scoreboard/LAL-[insertteam]/boxscore.

Sadds The Gr8
11-10-2012, 02:41 PM
tomorrow.

Lakers + Giants
11-10-2012, 02:41 PM
Kobe was pretty bad last year, that's some sort of decline. 6 games into the season, kobe still has a long time to **** this season up.

JasonJohnHorn
11-10-2012, 02:46 PM
I think Kobe Bryant's play will decline sometime in the future.

GREATNESS ONE
11-10-2012, 03:00 PM
We'll find out in 2-3 years who has the last laugh.

Dankster
11-10-2012, 03:06 PM
He's one of the very few wing players with a true post game. With his offensive skillset, he could average >20 ppg for at least another 3 or 4 years.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-10-2012, 03:14 PM
don't you have some cartoons to watch?

dude im 23. did you get butthurt from something i typed?
:confused:

ManRam
11-10-2012, 03:30 PM
When?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/117/021/enhanced-buzz-28895-1301694293-0.jpg

Hawkeye15
11-10-2012, 03:34 PM
he slowly has been. Look at his numbers last year. And if you are attempting to use this seasons first few games to say he is back, give it time. Age, and miles will do it to anyone.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
11-10-2012, 03:39 PM
Many of these fans don't watch Lakers games that start 7:40 pm on the Pacific coast (aka 10:40 pm on the East Coast. I mean, do you really expect these little kids to be up all night past 1 am to be watching the Lakers on League Pass or online?

No, they're bedtime is 9-9:30 pm East coast time most likely. By that time, a typical Laker game hasn't even started yet.


All they do is wake up the next morning and go on their laptops or smart phones and go to espn.com/nba/scoreboard/LAL-[insertteam]/boxscore.

Just because someone says something bad about one of your favorite players doesn't mean we don't watch them...

Eg714
11-10-2012, 04:12 PM
Kobe has been in decline for a few years already. He's still a top player in this league and could but up some really solid numbers if he's healthy.

bucketss
11-10-2012, 04:12 PM
it already started 2 years ago

Spurred1
11-10-2012, 04:28 PM
He already is declining. Don't take it personally-he's human and getting older. He's got a lot of mileage on those legs-decline is inevitable.
(God forbid should anyone imply that Kobe is less than perfect. And no-this isn't intended to all Kobe/Lakers fans. Just those that put Kobe on a pedestal and refuse to accept that he's a flawed human being like everyone else.)

Hawkeye15
11-10-2012, 04:50 PM
Many of these fans don't watch Lakers games that start 7:40 pm on the Pacific coast (aka 10:40 pm on the East Coast. I mean, do you really expect these little kids to be up all night past 1 am to be watching the Lakers on League Pass or online?

No, they're bedtime is 9-9:30 pm East coast time most likely. By that time, a typical Laker game hasn't even started yet.


All they do is wake up the next morning and go on their laptops or smart phones and go to espn.com/nba/scoreboard/LAL-[insertteam]/boxscore.

By that rational, you have zip opinion of any player that played before you started watching, right?

Pittz
11-10-2012, 04:51 PM
When?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/117/021/enhanced-buzz-28895-1301694293-0.jpg

It took 51 posts before this? PSD is slacking.

Anyone remember the hot start Kobe got out to last year? How people were clamoring that if he kept up that level of production, he'd be an MVP candidate? Didn't really work out...

mightybosstone
11-10-2012, 04:54 PM
I am so ****ing sick of Kobe Bryant threads. Why the hell do we even have moderators?

justinnum1
11-10-2012, 04:54 PM
Many of these fans don't watch Lakers games that start 7:40 pm on the Pacific coast (aka 10:40 pm on the East Coast. I mean, do you really expect these little kids to be up all night past 1 am to be watching the Lakers on League Pass or online?

No, they're bedtime is 9-9:30 pm East coast time most likely. By that time, a typical Laker game hasn't even started yet.


All they do is wake up the next morning and go on their laptops or smart phones and go to espn.com/nba/scoreboard/LAL-[insertteam]/boxscore.

:facepalm:

nickdymez
11-10-2012, 04:57 PM
A hollinger rating? lol

lmao. Exactly. These people dont even watch basketball games... smh

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-10-2012, 04:58 PM
I am so ****ing sick of Kobe Bryant threads. Why the hell do we even have moderators?

this x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000.43

xxplayerxx23
11-10-2012, 04:58 PM
:sigh: Kobe is the GOAT he will play until he is 50. He will NEVER decline.

Kenny
11-10-2012, 04:59 PM
You do realize there is a thing called defense in the NBA right? Kobe has lost A LOT defensively. Did anyone really think one day he would wake up and average 12 points per game??

xxplayerxx23
11-10-2012, 05:00 PM
You do realize there is a thing called defense in the NBA right? Kobe has lost A LOT defensively. Did anyone really think one day he would wake up and average 12 points per game??

Kobe would never allow himself toaverage 12 PPG even if it that means shooting 20+ times a game.

John Walls Era
11-10-2012, 05:15 PM
Sample size. But Kobe can avg 20+ forever if he watned.

MTone8788
11-10-2012, 05:18 PM
I think when people hear "Kobe is declining" you assume that it is a steep decline but that's not the case. He isn't in his prime anymore, so that means he has been declining. However, that doesn't mean he isn't still an incredibly talented player who is still one of the best in the league.

seikou8
11-10-2012, 05:19 PM
kobe bryant is a top 5 player now and of all time and is better than lebron ever was. you guys on the east coast dont watch like us lakers fans do. so what he shoots 25+ very some nights he has 5 rings.i mean he scores right. you guys all haters man kobe will just coast his way to 6 ring and watch you psd haters dies.:rolleyes:

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-10-2012, 05:22 PM
LeBron
Durant
CP3
Howard
Rose (healthy)
Wade (healthy)

are all better than kobe currently.

lets not overrate him now and look stupid to the viewing public.

ManRam
11-10-2012, 05:28 PM
It took 51 posts before this? PSD is slacking.

Anyone remember the hot start Kobe got out to last year? How people were clamoring that if he kept up that level of production, he'd be an MVP candidate? Didn't really work out...

I miss you :love:

SirSkyHook
11-10-2012, 06:29 PM
LeBron
Durant
CP3
Howard
Rose (healthy)
Wade (healthy)

are all better than kobe currently.

lets not overrate him now and look stupid to the viewing public.

Just cant give you Rose and Wade. I mean they're more explosive and on some nights more entertaing, but better........ I dont see it. Rose who's like 10 years younger has the same averages on the same fg% , so Kobe's experience alone gives him the edge to me.

Wade has slightly higher numbers but Kobe's edge is TO ME is he can guard Wade straight up and as last year proved Wade cant say the same.

Going by this season Kobe has clearly been the Lakers best player ( thats includes Howard) and anyone who's actually watch the games could see that. Kobe could average 8 plus assist but what shooters do he have? Players are getting wide open looks and are hitting iron everytime. Give him Bosh as a spot up shooter from 15ft along with, Ray, Lewis, Battier, Miller, Chalmers, and see how many assists he rack up per game lol. His best spot up shooter who gets minutes right now is probaly Pau and he's shooting 40% from the field on wide open looks most of the time.

Lebron and Durant are up ther, and CP3 is a hell of a floor general, but other than that, not putting Kobe in your top five is foolish.

SirSkyHook
11-10-2012, 06:32 PM
I miss you :love:

Your sig is awesome.

Pittz
11-10-2012, 06:45 PM
I miss you :love:

I think this is the first time you've ever been nice to me :laugh2:

Kobe2324
11-10-2012, 06:58 PM
The kobe haters will say hes done and ball hogs, the kobe lovers will say hes the best player in the league hands down, the people that know basketball will say Kobe has been great for a long time and will continue to be great because his basketball IQ is through the roof and his footwork is something all players can learn from. I am a Kobe fan and always have been, to me he is the 2nd best to ever lace them up and I am not going to say its not up for argument but that's my opinon. The great thing about Kobe is that even though athletically he has lost a step, he has made up for it in other ways. He could easily be productive until the age of 40 if he really wanted to play that long and as long as he takes care of his body. I am not going to say Kobe is the best player in the league, I think Lebron as much as i hate to admit it is the best player in the league. the toss up for me is Durant and Kobe, I realize Durant's numbers are good, but Kobe just brings that experience come playoff time, again im not mad at anyone who ranks Durant 2nd, I understand, I myself would rank Kobe 2nd or 3rd at worst. Witht hat said i think most would have Kobe in the top 5 in the league which might not sound impressive at first but let's remember that this guy is in his 17th year and he is still one of the best players in the league, that's just crazy.

Kobe2324
11-10-2012, 07:02 PM
LeBron
Durant
CP3
Howard
Rose (healthy)
Wade (healthy)

are all better than kobe currently.

lets not overrate him now and look stupid to the viewing public.

having wade on that list is an insult, rose you can kind of argue but still would rather have kobe if you take away age, same with howard, cp3 not even close, not even a top 5 player, durant and lebron I wont argue...

Bruno
11-10-2012, 07:10 PM
Through six games:
PER- 26.7 (7th)
TS%- .676
WS- 1.2 (3rd)
WS/48- .268 (8th)

he's been straight brilliant and if the lakers record wasn't below .500 he'd be a leader in the MVP race. his efficiency is off the charts. He's taking 17 shots to score 27.2 points per game, he's putting up 56-45-91 on his percentages.

if you look at my blog, you'll see that he got off to a similarly blistering start to the 2011-2012 season. The key to his sustained success at this level of play is minute distribution. his legs will give out eventually, but if the coach? can keep him below 35 mintues per night- i think he can keep his efficiency numbers up where they are. last year he ran out of gas (when brown played him over 38 minutes per game, which was top five in MPG, and a five minute increase over what Jackson was playing him in 2010-2011).

Kobes been great, no other way to spin this one.

ManRam
11-10-2012, 07:20 PM
having wade on that list is an insult, rose you can kind of argue but still would rather have kobe if you take away age, same with howard, cp3 not even close, not even a top 5 player, durant and lebron I wont argue...

I think Wade's playoffs are skewing your perception of reality. He was banged up, and clearly not himself in the playoffs, but I think he was the second best player in basketball last regular season.

However, Kobe has been phenomenal this season. No doubt about it. But I don't think it's insulting to say Wade is better, when I think he so clearly as last season :shrug:

Ebbs
11-10-2012, 07:21 PM
Hee has been the second best player in the NBA save LeBron. The numbers are nice but his team is failing and will see if they keep up if the team comes together.

Avenged
11-10-2012, 07:21 PM
I am so ****ing sick of Kobe Bryant threads. Why the hell do we even have moderators?

yep..

Raps18-19 Champ
11-10-2012, 07:35 PM
He already declined from his peak. Though he's still playing at a top level.

Alayla
11-10-2012, 08:06 PM
I wacth plenty of Kobe that doesnt however mean im ignorant to his decline hes not a top 5 player anymore plan and simple

lol, please
11-10-2012, 08:22 PM
Because it doesn't look like its happening this year. His numbers are MVP like (Even though its early) and i dont really see him slowing down. His fg% is up as well...
Why do you parenthesize decline, like it's not a natural occurence in human beings? The fact is it happens to everyone sooner or later. Please don't tell me you have some absurd argument about Kobe not being human or something of the sort, it would be disappointing to have wasted this time responding to someone who is in fact a child.

blystr2002
11-10-2012, 08:35 PM
Athletically he already has in terms of being able to go 100% every night. However, he is a top 10 player all time, so even with a decline he is one of the best in the league. He is also, so smart of a player he just keeps improving technically, which makes up for the lost athleticism.

bucketss
11-10-2012, 08:43 PM
having wade on that list is an insult, rose you can kind of argue but still would rather have kobe if you take away age, same with howard, cp3 not even close, not even a top 5 player, durant and lebron I wont argue...

wade>rose

STA_PLAR
11-10-2012, 08:50 PM
I'm not a Kobe fan but when you set the bar so high it's difficult to make it seem like you have declined.

KObe still puts up great numbers but it always affects his team negatively. When he scores in high numbers his team tends to lose those games.

I saw it last year against OKC...he goes out and gets his points....tires himself out and then has no gas for the end of games...He forces shot a lot

He is no longer as athletic, can dunk or drive like he used to....and doesnt have the great speed he once had.

He is one of the greatest to play and always will be but it's time to face reality...he has clearly declined in many ways.

They havent prove they can beat MIami...Four years ago give him this same roster and he easily wins the chip!

I dont think they will this year but lets see what the ZEN can do.

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 08:53 PM
having wade on that list is an insult.
This comment is an insult to my intelligence.

Wade was better then Kobe last year and even this year their numbers are
close and considering how much better Wade is defensively you could argue for him.

It has only been 5-6 games anyway... too soon to make those comments.

SteBO
11-10-2012, 09:01 PM
It really is amazing how long Kobe's been able to sustain his high level of play. Admirable is probably a better term.

Aust
11-10-2012, 09:04 PM
He's been playing great so far this season. Only thing I don't like are the turnovers from some obvious passing.

kblo247
11-10-2012, 09:09 PM
Kobe wasn't as inefficient last year in terms of context, he was playing with a torn wrist ligament and Brown had the bright idea of him handling the ball to get that hand and wrist beat up more, so he had to the shots to numb his hand.

I mean he was better than that when healthy, and is better than his last year under Phil. If you make excuses for Wade Whois younger and has had less surgeries, you can't ignore that Kobe was hurt his last year under Phil because he ran his knee to the bone in that last title run despite doctors opinions and orders, or that he was hurt last year and it impacted his shot. You can't excuse or note one without looking at the other in comparing the two so its either context for both or no excuses for both in comparison.

Kobe was a good shooter last year in the sense of catch and shooting while open, 11th best actually in the league even with the wrist and high minutes he was used by Brown

This year he just so happens to be open and have guys willing to shoot. Dwight keeps defense way more host than Bynum did, and their what's been a 2 way relationship that has benefited both as Dwight's athleticism and body isn't there now but his numbers are still hella good off the Kobe elevates every big he has played with effect (there is no wing better in league history).

Likewise Kobe has been filthy with his extra space. It also helps that he got his hands treated this summer, didn't have the time for knee or ankle like the summer before, but he did get his hands treated in Germany pre Olympics and it shows in his shooting which he said he would spend the summer working on to mason and Ireland:

Small sample size theater, Kobe edition: on post ups he's shooting 63.6% and on spot up 3 pointers he's shooting 60%. He's also shooting 57.1% on shots out of isolations & is producing 1.33 points per play per @mySynergySports.

Those are stunning numbers. (Also benefited by lack of bail out shots with another guy who can beat doubles in Dwight where Bynum or Pau can't)

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 09:29 PM
Kobe wasn't as inefficient last year in terms of context
Irregardless of context he was horribly inefficient and inconsistent last year.
He had an entire month where he shot under 40% and shot under 40% for 1/2 the year.


Kobe elevates every big he has played with effect (there is no wing better in league history).
Bolded is silly.
Kobe is the one that has most benefited from Dwights presence.
Dwight's overall numbers are actually down from last year.

Sure Kobe spaces the floor for Dwight and occasionally gets him an easy bucket off the PnR but still... bolded is silly.


Small sample size theater, Kobe edition: on post ups he's shooting 63.6% and on spot up 3 pointers he's shooting 60%. He's also shooting 57.1% on shots out of isolations & is producing 1.33 points per play per @mySynergySports.
True his shooting and individual offense in general has been amazing so far but still its a very small sample size.
Also he has been very turnover prone.

ManRam
11-10-2012, 09:31 PM
Kobe elevates every big he has played with effect (there is no wing better in league history).

Not sure how I feel about this...

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 09:34 PM
Not sure how I feel about this...

It isn't entirely untrue. It is just an absurd exaggeration and also it depends on how Kobe plays.

When he is playing selfishly he can hurt his bigs production/effectiveness and when he plays the right way he can help them (although not to the degree KBlo suggests).

LA>WORLD___KOBE
11-10-2012, 09:44 PM
kobe is to smart, when he starts his decline he will just move to a position and wait for the pass and shoot

Bruno
11-10-2012, 09:48 PM
he slowly has been. Look at his numbers last year. And if you are attempting to use this seasons first few games to say he is back, give it time. Age, and miles will do it to anyone.

minutes is key.

kobe had a great start to last season, his play dropped off during the condensed season as Brown had him playing 38.5 minutes per game (4th in the NBA per game, fractions behind Durant).

the year before Phil had kobe at 33 and change (with the bad knee). kobes numbers will slide if he's top five in minutes per game at his age, with his milage. the next coach has to keep him under 35 mpg.

ManRam
11-10-2012, 09:51 PM
I guess the crux of my beef with this thread is this:

Why is it controversial to think that a 34 year old player who has logged 42,595 regular minutes (3rd most active) is going to "decline" soon?

Bruno
11-10-2012, 09:54 PM
I guess the crux of my beef with this thread is this:

Why is it controversial to think that a 34 year old player who has logged 42,595 regular minutes (3rd most active) is going to "decline" soon?

it shouldn't be controversial.

it's interesting to watch and see how this plays out; how much longer can he push off father time, and at what level. it's one of my favorite story-archs of the season.

kblo247
11-10-2012, 09:54 PM
Kobe has got some garbage bugs paid and made them look decent (Mihm, Cook, Slava)

He's taken above average and got them great efficiency (Lamar)

Taken Pau and made him more efficient than he ever was as a first option by the attention he drew.

Andrew saw his efg, TS, and per dip when Kobe sat last year in games, and during the games Kobe missed he shot 42% from the field on almost 20 attempts. He greatly impacted how effecient Bynum was by being on the court.

Shaq has even said Kibe was the best at setting him up he has ever had in his career and reiterated it on NBA tv this year.

Kobe does have a knack of drawing attention away from bigs, getting them easy shots, and feeding them. Like it or not if you go back to his teams, the fact is no one feeds the bigs more than Kobe. Hell Dwight wasn't even eating when Kobe sat so far under Brown which was puzzling. Kobe is very good at reading his bigs and increasing efficiency.

Now is he perfect? No. He can get shot happy. He can sometimes say **** it when said bigs get passive or the like, but when it comes down to it, you will be hard pressed to find any wing in the league now or in the sat who has taken bigs from superstar to scrub and got use out of them like he does. It's one of the things Phil actually praised him about on Philosophy 101 despite him and Shaq egos getting in their way

ManRam
11-10-2012, 09:57 PM
it shouldn't be controversial.

it's interesting to watch and see how this plays out; how much longer can he push off father time, and at what level. it's one of my favorite story-archs of the season.

Timmy D has fought off father time pretty well, but after him, and in terms of wings, Kobe should be the one most able to fight it off. He's already changed up his game years ago so that he could sustain success. But the time will come, and it's completely natural. Arguably no one has more wear and tare on their body than he does.

I agree, it's a very fascinating story arch. We shall see. I think he'll be fine so long as he stays mentally composed. The last thing the team needs is a slightly-less-efficient Kobe stealing touches from Pau and Dwight. But I think he's matured a lot, and I don't foresee that being an issue.

kblo247
11-10-2012, 09:59 PM
I guess the crux of my beef with this thread is this:

Why is it controversial to think that a 34 year old player who has logged 42,595 regular minutes (3rd most active) is going to "decline" soon?

Don't forget playoff minutes - 17,281

The fact is it should be controversial, it should be for lack of a better word or phrase, exceptional.

Kobe is an exception to how we rate a player many ways. He may never have had the peak certain guys did. I'm not saying he is Jordan at their peaks, but that said, Jordan damn sure didn't have him prime, Iverson didn't, McGrady didn't, Carter didn't, Drexler didn't, Bird didn't, Magic didn't, Duncan and Garnett sure haven't, and so on.

The only guys you can really look at campare him to are Malone and Kareem in the sense of such an extended prime yet that gets overlooked and ignored when he should be praised for his ability to make that happen imo

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 10:02 PM
The only guys you can really look at campare him to are Malone and Kareem in the sense of such an extended prime yet that gets overlooked and ignored when he should be praised for his ability to make that happen imo

You're exaggerating here.

His longevity at this point is on par (not better then) guys like Shaq, Jordan, Russell and Magic.

This may be the year he "surpasses them".

He isn't close to Malone or Kareem yet.

ManRam
11-10-2012, 10:02 PM
Don't forget playoff minutes - 17,281

The fact is it should be controversial, it should be for lack of a better word or phrase, exceptional.

Kobe is an exception to how we rate a player many ways. He may never have had the peak certain guys did. I'm not saying he is Jordan at their peaks, but that said, Jordan damn sure didn't have him prime, Iverson didn't, McGrady didn't, Carter didn't, Drexler didn't, Bird didn't, Magic didn't, Duncan and Garnett sure haven't, and so on.

The only guys you can really look at campare him to are Malone and Kareem in the sense of such an extended prime yet that gets overlooked and ignored when he should be praised for his ability to make that happen imo

Oh. I agree. Kobe's longevity might ultimately end up unrivaled in the history of the sport. I don't like the guy, but it is what it is.

But I don't get the defensive attitude from Kobe fans when questioned with the issue of Kobe's decline. It's gotta come soon, no?

kblo247
11-10-2012, 10:03 PM
Timmy D has fought off father time pretty well, but after him, and in terms of wings, Kobe should be the one most able to fight it off. He's already changed up his game years ago so that he could sustain success. But the time will come, and it's completely natural. Arguably no one has more wear and tare on their body than he does.

I agree, it's a very fascinating story arch. We shall see. I think he'll be fine so long as he stays mentally composed. The last thing the team needs is a slightly-less-efficient Kobe stealing touches from Pau and Dwight. But I think he's matured a lot, and I don't foresee that being an issue.

Tim for lack of a better term got coddled far more than Kobe.

He had his season minutes protected much more, he never had multiple finals runs to defend his titles, let alone two b2b2b final runs. You can argue that there is a vast difference in their conditioning as athletes as Kobe blows by him in terms of physical grind even including size as Pop went out of his way to protect him whereas Phil rode Kobe like a Lamborghini

I just can never see Tim doing what Kobe did physically or mentally from 08-10. Fiba tourney, finals run, Olympics, 2nd finals run and title win, third finals run and title defense (while hurt). That is a grind Tim hasn't ever experienced or come close to relocating as he and his teams have run out of gas even trying to get out the west b2b years despite the minute management of Pop.

That is why I just point to Malone and Kareem personally

ManRam
11-10-2012, 10:08 PM
Tim for lack of a better term got coddled far more than Kobe.

He had his season minutes protected much more, he never had multiple finals runs to defend his titles, let alone two b2b2b final runs. You can argue that there is a vast difference in their conditioning as athletes as Kobe blows by him in terms of physical grind even including size as Pop went out of his way to protect him whereas Phil rode Kobe like a Lamborghini

I just can never see Tim doing what Kobe did physically or mentally from 08-10. Fiba tourney, finals run, Olympics, 2nd finals run and title win, third finals run and title defense (while hurt). That is a grind Tim hasn't ever experienced or come close to relocating as he and his teams have run out of gas even trying to get out the west b2b years despite the minute management of Pop.

That is why I just point to Malone and Kareem personally

I don't disagree. Moses had some amazing durability too. He was having great years well into his mid 30s. But in terms of wings, Kobe will ultimately end up being the most longevical (not a word, but let's pretend) of them all. It's amazing. Again, I don't like the guy because I felt at certain individual points (most of them) he was praised a bit too much, but when all is said and done, he sustained success for sooooo long.

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:09 PM
Timmy D has fought off father time pretty well, but after him, and in terms of wings, Kobe should be the one most able to fight it off.
Most of the GOATs seem to fight it off well into their 30's. Basketball IQ goes hand in hand with being able to take care of ones body/adapting your game as you age.


He's already changed up his game years ago so that he could sustain success. But the time will come, and it's completely natural. Arguably no one has more wear and tare on their body than he does.
He does. He was smart in that he never allowed his body to get out of game shape in the off-season because of the olympics. he was healthy for the first summer in a long time, so he just kept playing. He didn't have to go through the physical stress of getting back into game shape- he was already there.


I agree, it's a very fascinating story arch. We shall see. I think he'll be fine so long as he stays mentally composed. The last thing the team needs is a slightly-less-efficient Kobe stealing touches from Pau and Dwight. But I think he's matured a lot, and I don't foresee that being an issue.

He'll be fine. He needs to keep his FGA under 20, he needs his minutes to be kept under 35 a game. So long as teams have to pay serious attention to Howard, Kobe is on pace for a personal top three finish in career TS%. When Nash comes back Kobes touches will continue to be efficient. Through six games Pau Gasol has a TS% of .445 (20% points behind Kobe and Howard). the return of nash will help gasol a lot, which will only make things easier on kobe and howard- gasol being a more efficient option.

ManRam
11-10-2012, 10:11 PM
Bruno and kblo, I don't like agreeing with Laker fans, Damn you for being sensible and stuff!!

Munkeysuit
11-10-2012, 10:12 PM
Because it doesn't look like its happening this year. His numbers are MVP like (Even though its early) and i dont really see him slowing down. His fg% is up as well...

If you know anything about playing basketball, then you'd know that scoring is the easiest part of the game. This is exactly why Kobe is still as effective as he is, because this is all he does.

kblo247
11-10-2012, 10:12 PM
Oh yeah I'm not arguing if he will truly ever decline. I'm not saying never. I'm saying its greatly overstated the degree to which he will fall as long as he still is Kobe in terms of his approach in taking care of his body and mind. He is very good about dealing with injuries, finding new skills, and the like so it will be a steady decline and not fall off the ship one IMO. He won't be Iverson, McGrady, VC, or JO. I don't think he will even be Tim as he has too much pride to see DNP old on a box score like Pop gives tim to rest him from time to time. I think it will be one where he slowly trends down but still good enough to be considered near the best at his position (unless of he changes to SF to play to he is 40).

I just don't see him going from a hypothetical 27/5/5 to 18/3/3 but more like a 22/4/4



You're exaggerating here.

His longevity at this point is on par (not better then) guys like Shaq, Jordan, Russell and Magic.

This may be the year he "surpasses them".

He isn't close to Malone or Kareem yet.

Kobe already played more minutes than Michael, Bill, Shaq, or Magic. It's not crazy to see the difference in terms of wear. (I'd argue Shaq could have had the same longevity and consistency if he cared about his body at all)

P Harvy
11-10-2012, 10:14 PM
they call him the DECLINE KOBE

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 10:16 PM
Kobe already played more minutes than Michael, Bill, Shaq, or Magic. It's not crazy to see the difference in terms of wear. (I'd argue Shaq could have had the same longevity and consistency if he cared about his body at all)

I mean just in terms of All-Star level seasons he is around 10-13 at this point which isn't greater then guys like Jordan and Shaq.

He will probably surpass them in that aspect though be it this year or the next 1-2 unless he gets injured or something.

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:20 PM
You're exaggerating here.

His longevity at this point is on par (not better then) guys like Shaq, Jordan, Russell and Magic.

This may be the year he "surpasses them".

He isn't close to Malone or Kareem yet.

Magic, who retired at 31 years old, after his 12th season? The circumstances surrounding his retirement were unfortunate but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't play highly competitive basketball after his 32nd birthday. Kobe has already played three+ more season, 9,000 regular season minutes, and 261 more regular season games than Maigc johnson.

kobes has played in 200+ more regular season games than Russell, 55 more playoff games than Russell. More NBA seasons logged, more minutes.

kobe has passed shaq in regular and post season minutes played.

kobe has passed jordan in regular season games, regular season minutes, playoff games, playoff minutes, and total NBA seasons.

Kblo analysis wasn't really an exaggeration. Kobe is right there with the other GOATs in regards to sustained longevity, minutes played, games played, ect.

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 10:22 PM
kobe has passed shaq in regular and post season minutes played.

kobe has passed jordan in regular season games, regular season minutes, playoff games, playoff minutes, and total NBA seasons.

Kblo analysis wasn't really an exaggeration. Kobe is right there with the other GOATs in regards to sustained longevity, minutes played, games played, ect.

True but he hasn't surpassed them yet like I said in my previous post.

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:22 PM
I mean just in terms of All-Star level seasons he is around 10-13 at this point which isn't greater then guys like Jordan and Shaq.

He will probably surpass them in that aspect though be it this year or the next 1-2 unless he gets injured or something.

Kobe has been an all-star 14 times (soon to be 15).

Kobe is tied for the 3rd most all-star appearances in NBA history. In a few months he'll tie Shaq at 15, good enough for second all-time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_All-Stars

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:24 PM
True but he hasn't surpassed them yet like I said in my previous post.

he has passed Magic, and Russell, and Jordan in:

Total games played.
Total minutes logged.
Total playoff games played
Total playoff minutes logged.
Total all-star game appearances (he's tied with Jordan).

...how has he not surpassed them?

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:26 PM
True but he hasn't surpassed them yet like I said in my previous post.

to be more clear:

he has passed many GOATS (Magic, Russell, Bird), and he is nearly tied with several others (Shaq, MJ). the only players who are clearly past him in minutes, games, and all-star appearances are Malone and KAJ.

kblo247
11-10-2012, 10:27 PM
It's always what I've been interested most about when it comes to LeBron, as he carries so much weight and is so gifted, that I always wonder how he would age. He may do it well, unlike Shaq, would be good for the league if he did, but I sometimes wonder.

I mean I think Shaq could have had much better longevity with just some simple weight management because he was that much more gifted than anyone who entered the league for so long that it was silly, he was his own worst enemy on both sides of basketball (business and playing)

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 10:27 PM
Let it go bro :P we both agree he is near the Top of the Totem Pole.

Only Malone and Kareem are still clearly ahead of him.

ManRam
11-10-2012, 10:27 PM
No wing in the history of the NBA will top Kobe in terms of the longevity categories.


By that I mean no one has...maybe it does happen eventually.

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:28 PM
It's always what I've been interred most about when it comes to LeBron, as eh carries so much weight and is so gifted, that I always wonder how he would age. He may do it well, unlike Shaq, would be good for the league if he did, but I sometimes wonder.

I mean I think Shaq could have had much better longevity with just some simple weight management because he was that much mor gifted than anyone who entered the league for so long that it was silly, he was his own worst enemy on both sides of basketball (business and playing)

i think LeBron will age better than Shaq.

with that being said, Shaq still put up some pretty good numbers (despite on and off seasons here and there) as he got into his mid/late 30's.

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:29 PM
No wing in the history of the NBA will top Kobe in terms of the longevity categories.


By that I mean no one has...maybe it does happen eventually.

is Durant a wing? I think he has the build to last a long time in this league. I think Durant will eventually surpass Kobe in a lot of scoring records.

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 10:29 PM
I mean I think Shaq could have had much better longevity with just some simple weight management because he was that much more gifted than anyone who entered the league for so long that it was silly, he was his own worst enemy on both sides of basketball (business and playing)
I agree for the most part.

Shaq still had amazing longevity but he could have been like Kareem if he kept himself in better shape towards the end of his career.

I disagree with the bolded though.
Shaq got paid and paid big even towards the end.

He is a good business man.

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:31 PM
Let it go bro :P we both agree he is near the Top of the Totem Pole.

Only Malone and Kareem are still clearly ahead of him.

lol, you just said he was behind Magic and Russell five minutes ago.

:hi5:

Bruno
11-10-2012, 10:32 PM
Bruno and kblo, I don't like agreeing with Laker fans, Damn you for being sensible and stuff!!

sorry dude.

Andrew32
11-10-2012, 10:33 PM
lol, you just said he was behind Magic and Russell five minutes ago.

:hi5:

Did I say that?
I thought I said he hasn't firmly surpassed them yet in terms of raw All-Star level seasons and I think that is true.

kblo247
11-10-2012, 10:35 PM
I agree for the most part.

Shaq still had amazing longevity but he could have been like Kareem if he kept himself in better shape towards the end of his career.

I disagree with the bolded though.
Shaq got paid and paid big even towards the end.

He is a good business man.

I meant more about Shaq dealing with front offices, cloches, and other stars everywhere he went. He could have not ended his career like a journey man IMO and that likewise may have made him even more possibly as he didn't just burn but ethered a lot of bridges

kblo247
11-10-2012, 10:36 PM
Bruno and kblo, I don't like agreeing with Laker fans, Damn you for being sensible and stuff!!

My bad

joshhorvath
11-10-2012, 10:55 PM
Kobe will decline when he retires.

RLundi
11-10-2012, 11:04 PM
A hollinger rating? lol


lmao. Exactly. These people dont even watch basketball games... smh

I'm not going to ignore relevant statistics just because you refuse to or lack the capacity to comprehend them.

Vinny642
11-11-2012, 12:08 AM
2-4 takes him out of MVP consideration and so do the players on his team, so.......

But I dont think he'll decline like other older players, i think he'll retire before he declines

magic0320
11-11-2012, 12:46 AM
can't do anything about people's opinion.... anyways i think kobe will be still great player in the league as long as he's number one option on his team even though he's in he's 40s. i really don't see kobe getting any worse than now as long as he's still number 1 guy for he's team

Vinny642
11-11-2012, 12:49 AM
can't do anything about people's opinion.... anyways i think kobe will be still great player in the league as long as he's number one option on his team even though he's in he's 40s. i really don't see kobe getting any worse than now as long as he's still number 1 guy for he's team

This is a joke right?

AIRMAR72
11-11-2012, 02:11 AM
kobe normaly gets woren out in 2nd half of the season I cant WAIT for his fans to witness it

Lim
11-11-2012, 04:47 AM
uhm hes been declining for the past 2 years... don't let his black hole stats fool you.

ThuglifeJ
11-11-2012, 06:13 AM
it's sad.. hard to accept, especially if you are younger. But all players decline. Kobe is definitely declining to some extent. It's hard to notice because it's gradual but if you have any tapes/full length games of older games say 2006 you'll notice so much difference..sad I don't want to see Kobe decline when theres no good young gunz anymore.

No charisma or personalities in NBA players anymore.. Why is this? It's like we used to get fed something different in the 90s/early 2000s.


like when I was watching the Knicks/Mavs game the other night there was constant trash talking and a few jokes bein tossed around out tehre between the older players (Melo, Sheed, Vince, Chandler, Camby) exactly like they used to in their early days. No young players do this anymore do you notice? And the worse part is there was even more trash talking and charisma in the 90s....... it's nearly all gone now

LBJ6
11-11-2012, 07:20 AM
Currently

STA_PLAR
11-11-2012, 08:06 AM
True story...After Lebron's class it seems like a lot the NBA personality has died out.
Maybe it's because some of the new guys don't get any love by the media or are too afraid of looking bad in front of the media.

Even Durant and Rose don't have much charisma. They are humble and quiet and don't talk trash.Instead they cry for "mom" when they win mvp and practice against the dudes they were supposed to beat in the finals.

The NBA has changed a lot. That's why I think the late 80's and 90's were the best times as a basketball fan. Some of you weren't even around lol

Nonetheless, just maybe it is better for the sport as it begins to get that "soft" image.

JasonJohnHorn
11-11-2012, 01:43 PM
Kobe is, and will remain, the best shooting guard in the NBA until he retires, at 45.

ldawg
11-11-2012, 01:44 PM
Kobe is the Baws

Greedy22
11-11-2012, 02:10 PM
Bruno and kblo are easily the best and my favorite lakers posters on here, makes me proud to be a lakers fan as well :cheers:

LakersEaglesLA
11-11-2012, 09:44 PM
Kobe is playin lights out right now. So him declining may be years away no sense in worrying abt it now.. He will get his 6th ring this season. Keep you young guns (LeBron durant cp3) Im rolling with KOBE. Lets see who wins

Andrew32
11-11-2012, 09:55 PM
He will get his 6th ring this season.

Not unless Jackson is coaching he wont.

xxcubs22xx
11-11-2012, 09:59 PM
I could see his decline beginning no earlier than the 2014 season

basketfan4life
11-12-2012, 04:12 AM
It isn't entirely untrue. It is just an absurd exaggeration and also it depends on how Kobe plays.

When he is playing selfishly he can hurt his bigs production/effectiveness and when he plays the right way he can help them (although not to the degree KBlo suggests).

Where is Andrew32 that we know finds all sorts of advances stats to prove Kobe isn't that good? Why there is no proof to what you said? where are your stats baby?

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 04:17 AM
minutes is key.

kobe had a great start to last season, his play dropped off during the condensed season as Brown had him playing 38.5 minutes per game (4th in the NBA per game, fractions behind Durant).

the year before Phil had kobe at 33 and change (with the bad knee). kobes numbers will slide if he's top five in minutes per game at his age, with his milage. the next coach has to keep him under 35 mpg.

Usage and minutes are key. But doesn't that literally define "decline"?

Kobe is no longer a top 5 player (sorry Laker fans), and is getting no better with his mileage. Age, and games played happens. This is a fact. Especially when factoring in he came in at age 18-19.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 04:20 AM
It's always what I've been interested most about when it comes to LeBron, as he carries so much weight and is so gifted, that I always wonder how he would age. He may do it well, unlike Shaq, would be good for the league if he did, but I sometimes wonder.

I mean I think Shaq could have had much better longevity with just some simple weight management because he was that much more gifted than anyone who entered the league for so long that it was silly, he was his own worst enemy on both sides of basketball (business and playing)

Leron's greatness, like many, will be ranked from his peak. Kobe dives into the top 10 because of his longevity, not because of his individual dominance over any period of time. Its very difficult, for any Kobe fan, to pinpoint when he was by far and away the best player in the league. The same can not be said of LeBron, and many other top 10 player of all time.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 04:21 AM
Where is Andrew32 that we know finds all sorts of advances stats to prove Kobe isn't that good? Why there is no proof to what you said? where are your stats baby?

Advanced stats prove Kobe was just fine haha. I mean, nobody should have that many years with statistical dominance (even if they weren't THE BEST that year). 13-14 years being a top 4 player. That is ridiculous.

sunsfan88
11-12-2012, 04:23 AM
He's gonna start declining once D'Antoni starts plays him 40+ mins every night.

basketfan4life
11-12-2012, 04:35 AM
Advanced stats prove Kobe was just fine haha. I mean, nobody should have that many years with statistical dominance (even if they weren't THE BEST that year). 13-14 years being a top 4 player. That is ridiculous.

I know, but that guy use every possible stat that shows Kobe bad and ignores anything he is good at.


Leron's greatness, like many, will be ranked from his peak. Kobe dives into the top 10 because of his longevity, not because of his individual dominance over any period of time. Its very difficult, for any Kobe fan, to pinpoint when he was by far and away the best player in the league. The same can not be said of LeBron, and many other top 10 player of all time.

Hey Hawkeye, you know i have a respect for you, and for your posts. But i can't see where kblo mentioned LBJ's all-time rankings. He is just pointing out to something he is curious of. You know we all aren't that bad :)

basketfan4life
11-12-2012, 04:37 AM
Oh by the way, outside of Jimmer Fredette, guess who is leading the league in PER right now?

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 04:44 AM
I know, but that guy use every possible stat that shows Kobe bad and ignores anything he is good at.

I am more than open to not being looked at as THE Kobe hater here, even though I still don't agree with that label.


Hey Hawkeye, you know i have a respect for you, and for your posts. But i can't see where kblo mentioned LBJ's all-time rankings. He is just pointing out to something he is curious of. You know we all aren't that bad :)

Oh, I know. I was pointing that out myself. I may have gone a bit off topic with that post I suppose, my bad, I was simply giving a re-hash of like 15 posts I read, and happened to quote kblo's.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 04:45 AM
Oh by the way, outside of Jimmer Fredette, guess who is leading the league in PER right now?

yeah but Jimmer's PER is killing Kobe's. Therefore, Jimmer is easily the better player :p

xxcubs22xx
11-12-2012, 07:07 AM
His decline just initiated with the signing of D'Antoni.

thenaj17
11-12-2012, 07:57 AM
Kobe clearly hasn't been in his Prime since 2010 and I thought his 2011 and 2012 seasons were pretty crappy.

This year he has been very impressive so far however you think he is an MVP candidate?
I don't think so.

There is more to the game then just individual scoring.

He has been terrible defensively, he is turning the ball over at a terrible rate and he is barely creating for others at all.

I agree with you on a lot of that but that last bolded statement is total excrement...

Lakerfan In NY
11-12-2012, 02:12 PM
Decline? I love it when people say that like he hasn't been playing hurt for like three yr now...Knee, finger, Foot.

xxplayerxx23
11-12-2012, 02:15 PM
:laugh: Injuries as an excuse.

beliges
11-12-2012, 03:12 PM
:laugh: Injuries as an excuse.

Not exactly sure what you are expecting out of Kobe. He's certainly not in his prime like lebron. He is in.his 17th season and is still one of the 4 or 5 best players in.the world. He is playing significantly better than.anyone who has ever played the game in their 17th season. He's been.in the top 5 in the league for.about 13 years now. Sure he's obviously on the decline, but even with that, he's still one of the 5 best players. I mean what else can you ask from the guy?

He's played longer and dominated longer than bird, magic, mj, wilt Russell and everyone else to have ever played the game outside of Kareem. Its laughable to downplay how dominant he still is at this stage in.his career. This is something that has never been done before.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 03:17 PM
Not exactly sure what you are expecting out of Kobe. He's certainly not in his prime like lebron. He is in.his 17th season and is still one of the 4 or 5 best players in.the world. He is playing significantly better than.anyone who has ever played the game in their 17th season. He's been.in the top 5 in the league for.about 13 years now. Sure he's obviously on the decline, but even with that, he's still one of the 5 best players. I mean what else can you ask from the guy?

He's played longer and dominated longer than bird, magic, mj, wilt Russell and everyone else to have ever played the game outside of Kareem. Its laughable to downplay how dominant he still is at this stage in.his career. This is something that has never been done before.

I mean, Kareem, Karl Malone, and a few others were still kicking *** at age 37-38, in their 17th seasons. Its beyond rare however. And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever. But simply being a top 4-6 player for 15 years is stupid. How does he do that? That is why I personally have him in the top 10.

Greedy22
11-12-2012, 03:21 PM
Not exactly sure what you are expecting out of Kobe. He's certainly not in his prime like lebron. He is in.his 17th season and is still one of the 4 or 5 best players in.the world. He is playing significantly better than.anyone who has ever played the game in their 17th season. He's been.in the top 5 in the league for.about 13 years now. Sure he's obviously on the decline, but even with that, he's still one of the 5 best players. I mean what else can you ask from the guy?

He's played longer and dominated longer than bird, magic, mj, wilt Russell and everyone else to have ever played the game outside of Kareem. Its laughable to downplay how dominant he still is at this stage in.his career. This is something that has never been done before.

I mean, Kareem, Karl Malone, and a few others were still kicking *** at age 37-38, in their 17th seasons. Its beyond rare however. And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever. But simply being a top 4-6 player for 15 years is stupid. How does he do that? That is why I personally have him in the top 10. I honestly find his level of play for this long to be more impressive due to him being a perimeter player and them not aging as well as big men historically.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 03:28 PM
I honestly find his level of play for this long to be more impressive due to him being a perimeter player and them not aging as well as big men historically.

There is some truth to that as well. But also remember, the bigger you are, the more your body takes a beating physically, so they are equally impressive to me, but since we really haven't seen many perimeter players do it, it is extremely impressive. I mean, Stockton had a fine 17th seasons, but was not MVP caliber.

beliges
11-12-2012, 03:32 PM
Not exactly sure what you are expecting out of Kobe. He's certainly not in his prime like lebron. He is in.his 17th season and is still one of the 4 or 5 best players in.the world. He is playing significantly better than.anyone who has ever played the game in their 17th season. He's been.in the top 5 in the league for.about 13 years now. Sure he's obviously on the decline, but even with that, he's still one of the 5 best players. I mean what else can you ask from the guy?

He's played longer and dominated longer than bird, magic, mj, wilt Russell and everyone else to have ever played the game outside of Kareem. Its laughable to downplay how dominant he still is at this stage in.his career. This is something that has never been done before.

I mean, Kareem, Karl Malone, and a few others were still kicking *** at age 37-38, in their 17th seasons. Its beyond rare however. And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever. But simply being a top 4-6 player for 15 years is stupid. How does he do that? That is why I personally have him in the top 10.

Neither Malone nor Kareem were anywhere near as productive or dominant in their 17th seasons. My point was nobody has played this well, and been a top.5 player in the league well.in their 17th season.

And this who "peak" argument for kobe has always been just silly to me. In 02,03,04,06,07 Kobe was as good as anyone as far as peak. I would even argue that his peak was better than any perimeter player to have ever played, right there with MJ. He was putting up 50 at will while defending the other teams best player for quite a few years. His lack of "peak" argument is simply unfounded
Lastly, while.his longevitiy seperates him from some of the other all time greats, what truly makes him a legend is his ability to dominate and win. Besides mj and.magic, nobody has dominated like Kobe in the modern era of the league. I understand where some of the criticism comes from as many people simply hate seeing him.succeed but we need to bring some objectivity into this argument. It seems you are arguing with your heart and out of emotion and ignoring some major historical facts.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 03:40 PM
[QUOTE=beliges;24294904]Neither Malone nor Kareem were anywhere near as productive or dominant in their 17th seasons. My point was nobody has played this well, and been a top.5 player in the league well.in their 17th season.

They were both still extremely good, and at a much higher age.


And this who "peak" argument for kobe has always been just silly to me. In 02,03,04,06,07 Kobe was as good as anyone as far as peak. I would even argue that his peak was better than any perimeter player to have ever played, right there with MJ. He was putting up 50 at will while defending the other teams best player for quite a few years. His lack of "peak" argument is simply unfounded

But the numbers don't agree with you at all. Nor does the eye test.


Lastly, while.his longevitiy seperates him from some of the other all time greats, what truly makes him a legend is his ability to dominate and win. Besides mj and.magic, nobody has dominated like Kobe in the modern era of the league. I understand where some of the criticism comes from as many people simply hate seeing him.succeed but we need to bring some objectivity into this argument. It seems you are arguing with your heart and out of emotion and ignoring some major historical facts.

So, players who have long primes, and STACKED teams, win more? I agree with that. His peak simply doesn't stand up to some of the all timers. That is not an insult at all, many of them couldn't sustain even average level of play for the length Kobe has still be kicking ***.

beliges
11-12-2012, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE=beliges;24294904]Neither Malone nor Kareem were anywhere near as productive or dominant in their 17th seasons. My point was nobody has played this well, and been a top.5 player in the league well.in their 17th season.

They were both still extremely good, and at a much higher age.


And this who "peak" argument for kobe has always been just silly to me. In 02,03,04,06,07 Kobe was as good as anyone as far as peak. I would even argue that his peak was better than any perimeter player to have ever played, right there with MJ. He was putting up 50 at will while defending the other teams best player for quite a few years. His lack of "peak" argument is simply unfounded

But the numbers don't agree with you at all. Nor does the eye test.


Lastly, while.his longevitiy seperates him from some of the other all time greats, what truly makes him a legend is his ability to dominate and win. Besides mj and.magic, nobody has dominated like Kobe in the modern era of the league. I understand where some of the criticism comes from as many people simply hate seeing him.succeed but we need to bring some objectivity into this argument. It seems you are arguing with your heart and out of emotion and ignoring some major historical facts.

Undoubtedly Malone and Kareem were great in their 17th seasons, but nowhere near as good as Kobe is this season. And certainly no longer top 5 players in the league.

And lastly again your contention that kobes "peak" numbers weren't as impressive and some other greats is unfounded. His numbers in 02,03,04,06,07 and 08 are as good as anyone. Not sure what numbers you're looking at but your argument has no merit. I would say his numbers, coupled with his defensive accolades show he is the greatest perimeter player ever outside of MJ.

So, players who have long primes, and STACKED teams, win more? I agree with that. His peak simply doesn't stand up to some of the all timers. That is not an insult at all, many of them couldn't sustain even average level of play for the length Kobe has still be kicking ***.

Bruno
11-12-2012, 04:14 PM
Usage and minutes are key. But doesn't that literally define "decline"?

Kobe is no longer a top 5 player (sorry Laker fans), and is getting no better with his mileage. Age, and games played happens. This is a fact. Especially when factoring in he came in at age 18-19.
i guess it does. although i don't consider tony parker to be declining the past few seasons just because Pop is smart enough to save his legs. its a fragile ecosystem.

who are the NBAs top five players?

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 04:19 PM
i guess it does. although i don't consider tony parker to be declining the past few seasons just because Pop is smart enough to save his legs. its a fragile ecosystem.

who are the NBAs top five players?

Chronz pointed me to some study that shows playing guys from 30-34 minutes a night is optimal long term, not sure where I put that.

Right now, tough to say this early. LeBron, Durant, Melo Paul, and Kobe have all looked great. But the sample size is still too small to determine. There are a lot of guys that started off the season well. And a few stars that were hurt to begin the year.

Bruno
11-12-2012, 04:19 PM
I mean, Kareem, Karl Malone, and a few others were still kicking *** at age 37-38, in their 17th seasons. Its beyond rare however. And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever. But simply being a top 4-6 player for 15 years is stupid. How does he do that? That is why I personally have him in the top 10.

only half of the other GOATs blow out kobe in peak.

Kobes regular season peak and post-season peak holds its own with Bird, Magic, Russell, and Hakeem.

Kobe is only blown out by MJ, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan and KAJ in regards to peak.

Bruno
11-12-2012, 04:20 PM
Chronz pointed me to some study that shows playing guys from 30-34 minutes a night is optimal long term, not sure where I put that.

Right now, tough to say this early. LeBron, Durant, Melo Paul, and Kobe have all looked great. But the sample size is still too small to determine. There are a lot of guys that started off the season well. And a few stars that were hurt to begin the year.

haha, i just wanted to see if you'd actually say Melo :cheers:

looking at the top ten PER and WS list when the season is only a couple weeks old is always hilarious.

i agree with the point you and chronz shared.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 04:23 PM
haha, i just wanted to see if you'd actually say Melo :cheers:

looking at the top ten PER and WS list when the season is only a couple weeks old is always hilarious.

i agree with the point you and chronz shared.

Melo has been awesome so far. Will it continue? History says no, but he can prove everyone wrong, its up to him. Melo has done this his whole career. Given a 20 game stretch where everyone just goes gaga over his play, and then he half ***** it for the next 30 games. Its all about consistency with him. When he is on his game, he is as good as anyone. He just seems to go in and out of caring about his game.

Lakers4life08
11-12-2012, 04:33 PM
when Kobe shoots 3-15 in a game...when he is really declined....now he is playing fantastic....ohh btw how was Wade last game??

Greedy22
11-12-2012, 06:26 PM
There is some truth to that as well. But also remember, the bigger you are, the more your body takes a beating physically, so they are equally impressive to me, but since we really haven't seen many perimeter players do it, it is extremely impressive. I mean, Stockton had a fine 17th seasons, but was not MVP caliber.

Ahh honestly didn't think of that. Stockton aged pretty well, man was he a pain in the *** for the lakers when I was kid growing up.

DLCK
11-12-2012, 06:46 PM
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The haters (so called ) bring all these kobe threads just to troll directly or indirectly. My favorite thread of late was " What if lebron had pau and bynum" Another plain out trolling thread.. The "haters" always come out of the woodwork with some sort of thread to troll laker/kobe fans. Hes clearly a top5/10 of all time.(im sure a hater will come in and quote this and give me 10 player who he thinks are better)but hes a ******* a villain so to say . So if you are not a Laker fan or had some gay worship to Shaq you are gonna hate him and thats fine. But Kobe love threads start because of the 100million kobe laker hate threads that always pop up in the nba forum.

quade36
11-12-2012, 07:12 PM
The haters (so called ) bring all these kobe threads just to troll directly or indirectly. My favorite thread of late was " What if lebron had pau and bynum" Another plain out trolling thread.. The "haters" always come out of the woodwork with some sort of thread to troll laker/kobe fans. Hes clearly a top5/10 of all time.(im sure a hater will come in and quote this and give me 10 player who he thinks are better)but hes a ******* a villain so to say . So if you are not a Laker fan or had some gay worship to Shaq you are gonna hate him and thats fine. But Kobe love threads start because of the 100million kobe laker hate threads that always pop up in the nba forum.

Honestly I see more Kobe is the greatest threads on this forum than Kobe haters.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2012, 07:19 PM
Ahh honestly didn't think of that. Stockton aged pretty well, man was he a pain in the *** for the lakers when I was kid growing up.

ahh, the Lakers last down years haha, outside the brief 2 years in the middle of the 2000's. Man, Stockton was one of my favorites. I was the only one who liked him until I met my friend Spencer in Minneapolis.

"Why do you have a poster of John Stockton on your wall?"

"Because I love the Jazz"

"Huh, but you live in Minnesota"

"I am mormon"

"oh"

dh144498
11-13-2012, 11:18 AM
The haters (so called ) bring all these kobe threads just to troll directly or indirectly. My favorite thread of late was " What if lebron had pau and bynum" Another plain out trolling thread.. The "haters" always come out of the woodwork with some sort of thread to troll laker/kobe fans. Hes clearly a top5/10 of all time.(im sure a hater will come in and quote this and give me 10 player who he thinks are better)but hes a ******* a villain so to say . So if you are not a Laker fan or had some gay worship to Shaq you are gonna hate him and thats fine. But Kobe love threads start because of the 100million kobe laker hate threads that always pop up in the nba forum.

this. Really tired of all the Lebron fans making Kobe related threads.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-13-2012, 11:20 AM
both sides are def to blame.

its a never ending cat fight

:catfight:

TheIlladelph16
11-13-2012, 11:40 AM
I thought its pretty clear that Kobe isn't the player he used to be... Isn't that what declining means? Still a great player, but I thought this was fairly obvious at this point. Either way this thread is another excuse to duke it out between Lakers fans and the rest of the forum.

3RDASYSTEM
11-13-2012, 11:55 AM
I mean, Kareem, Karl Malone, and a few others were still kicking *** at age 37-38, in their 17th seasons. Its beyond rare however. And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever. But simply being a top 4-6 player for 15 years is stupid. How does he do that? That is why I personally have him in the top 10.


those backupguard yrs preserved his body so when he finally developed in his 4th yr, he was fresh

he had DIESEL to lean on for first 8yrs, that helps alot keeping body in tact/health, he wasnt shooting volume heavy, he was PIPP like(sidekick), wait did i just put KOBE and sidekick in same sentence(my apology LAKERfiens)

so in his 2nd yr 1998 he was a top 6 player? being one of top players for a decade is lovely, but calling him a top 4-6 player for 15yrs is very 'stupid', especially when he started out as a backup

its like here we go again with KOBE, first he was too young a teen so he couldnt start offtop, now he is doing something that a 17yr vet has never done, but i bet none of those other players were backup players when they got drafted....ALCINDOR/WILT didnt ride the pine, that matters alot in sports, a 4yr gap is a lot of mileage on body, to preserve that is priceless, go ask KOBE

longevity doesnt make you great, your 'game' does

its funny how everybody on here can use he was too 'young' or now he is in his 17th season and hasnt declined

then when i say he was a backupguard everybody gets upset and irate like im making **** up


Its hard to decipher his decline since he started off as backup then won ships as sidekick/strongest no2 option ever, then went thru like a 7yr gap without a title(but won scoring titles), then hasnt gotten out of 2nd rd past couple yrs(with no scoring titles)

since he relys on way more skill than natural ability his decline will not be as noticed as a BRON, who came strait out of highschool and was basically allnba player his rookie yr, no 3-4yr backup program for him to preserve his body, his game was too much to sit on pine and wait for him to develop behind a avg-good player

i dont think people look at KOBEs inception as much as they look at his first title season of 2000....thats why i see it diff. because im speaking from day1 til now, which was always confusing to me on why he was being a backup guard but he was the franchise 'JORDAN' player, almost too funny..what did he do so extraordinary in 2000 that he didnt do in 96 beside start fulltime? or did he finally develop since he did enter the league as a 'teen'(doesnt all highschools have teens?), so he just came to league for recreation? not to compete for starting job day1?

I just found it too comical that JORDAN would ride the pine(dont you also?), i mean we talking about JORDAN(KOBE) right?

This is another thing really comical about KOBEFIENS and supporters alike:

'''''HAWKEYE15=And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever''''''''

....ITS THE SAME THING THEY SAY ABOUT JETER IN MLB CIRCLES, AND JETER IS NOWHERE NEAR TOP 10 EVER,JUST LIKE KOBE ISNT

to me LONGEVITY=GAME
he has had the same game(JORDANimage) since his 96draft day trade to LA, so to me thats why i rank you from day1inception...not yrs later when you make allstar team or when it fits my criteria, thats why i do it right way where it leaves no confusion..day1,game1 til career is a wrap, he developed into a 'superstar'(as told to me via mediaoutlets)

KOBE is the JETER, nothing wrong with that at all...big props, i like KOBE/JETER game, especially those overhyped moments he's had in postseasons in NY,priceless

Greedy22
11-13-2012, 12:25 PM
ahh, the Lakers last down years haha, outside the brief 2 years in the middle of the 2000's. Man, Stockton was one of my favorites. I was the only one who liked him until I met my friend Spencer in Minneapolis.

"Why do you have a poster of John Stockton on your wall?"

"Because I love the Jazz"

"Huh, but you live in Minnesota"

"I am mormon"

"oh"

Haha yes, at 6-7 years old they were much more magnified as well. Anyone who routinely beat the lakers I hated to the point I'd turn red. Stockton actually ended up being one of my favorites as I got older, those short shorts were the business.

That's how my sister is too, it's the only logical reason to have a poster of a Jazz legend when you aren't from Utah :laugh2:

thenaj17
11-13-2012, 12:28 PM
I mean, Kareem, Karl Malone, and a few others were still kicking *** at age 37-38, in their 17th seasons. Its beyond rare however. And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever. But simply being a top 4-6 player for 15 years is stupid. How does he do that? That is why I personally have him in the top 10.

Are you saying Kobe has never been a top 3 player in the league? :speechless:

And i'm asking this because i respect you as a poster

thenaj17
11-13-2012, 12:37 PM
those backupguard yrs preserved his body so when he finally developed in his 4th yr, he was fresh

he had DIESEL to lean on for first 8yrs, that helps alot keeping body in tact/health, he wasnt shooting volume heavy, he was PIPP like(sidekick), wait did i just put KOBE and sidekick in same sentence(my apology LAKERfiens)

so in his 2nd yr 1998 he was a top 6 player? being one of top players for a decade is lovely, but calling him a top 4-6 player for 15yrs is very 'stupid', especially when he started out as a backup

its like here we go again with KOBE, first he was too young a teen so he couldnt start offtop, now he is doing something that a 17yr vet has never done, but i bet none of those other players were backup players when they got drafted....ALCINDOR/WILT didnt ride the pine, that matters alot in sports, a 4yr gap is a lot of mileage on body, to preserve that is priceless, go ask KOBE

longevity doesnt make you great, your 'game' does

its funny how everybody on here can use he was too 'young' or now he is in his 17th season and hasnt declined

then when i say he was a backupguard everybody gets upset and irate like im making **** up


Its hard to decipher his decline since he started off as backup then won ships as sidekick/strongest no2 option ever, then went thru like a 7yr gap without a title(but won scoring titles), then hasnt gotten out of 2nd rd past couple yrs(with no scoring titles)

since he relys on way more skill than natural ability his decline will not be as noticed as a BRON, who came strait out of highschool and was basically allnba player his rookie yr, no 3-4yr backup program for him to preserve his body, his game was too much to sit on pine and wait for him to develop behind a avg-good player

i dont think people look at KOBEs inception as much as they look at his first title season of 2000....thats why i see it diff. because im speaking from day1 til now, which was always confusing to me on why he was being a backup guard but he was the franchise 'JORDAN' player, almost too funny..what did he do so extraordinary in 2000 that he didnt do in 96 beside start fulltime? or did he finally develop since he did enter the league as a 'teen'(doesnt all highschools have teens?), so he just came to league for recreation? not to compete for starting job day1?

I just found it too comical that JORDAN would ride the pine(dont you also?), i mean we talking about JORDAN(KOBE) right?

This is another thing really comical about KOBEFIENS and supporters alike:

'''''HAWKEYE15=And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever''''''''

....ITS THE SAME THING THEY SAY ABOUT JETER IN MLB CIRCLES, AND JETER IS NOWHERE NEAR TOP 10 EVER,JUST LIKE KOBE ISNT

to me LONGEVITY=GAME
he has had the same game(JORDANimage) since his 96draft day trade to LA, so to me thats why i rank you from day1inception...not yrs later when you make allstar team or when it fits my criteria, thats why i do it right way where it leaves no confusion..day1,game1 til career is a wrap, he developed into a 'superstar'(as told to me via mediaoutlets)

KOBE is the JETER, nothing wrong with that at all...big props, i like KOBE/JETER game, especially those overhyped moments he's had in postseasons in NY,priceless

Can mods just ban this idiot already?

HowFit
11-13-2012, 12:37 PM
The haters (so called ) bring all these kobe threads just to troll directly or indirectly. My favorite thread of late was " What if lebron had pau and bynum" Another plain out trolling thread.. The "haters" always come out of the woodwork with some sort of thread to troll laker/kobe fans. Hes clearly a top5/10 of all time.(im sure a hater will come in and quote this and give me 10 player who he thinks are better)but hes a ******* a villain so to say . So if you are not a Laker fan or had some gay worship to Shaq you are gonna hate him and thats fine. But Kobe love threads start because of the 100million kobe laker hate threads that always pop up in the nba forum.

Well then the hater built this thread with over 170 posts. Something must be going right...

Jint.
11-13-2012, 12:42 PM
Nov. 33rd

nickdymez
11-13-2012, 01:06 PM
this. Really tired of all the Lebron fans making Kobe related threads.

Dont know if this is directed at me, but im no Lebron fan. lol

Greedy22
11-13-2012, 02:55 PM
those backupguard yrs preserved his body so when he finally developed in his 4th yr, he was fresh

he had DIESEL to lean on for first 8yrs, that helps alot keeping body in tact/health, he wasnt shooting volume heavy, he was PIPP like(sidekick), wait did i just put KOBE and sidekick in same sentence(my apology LAKERfiens)

so in his 2nd yr 1998 he was a top 6 player? being one of top players for a decade is lovely, but calling him a top 4-6 player for 15yrs is very 'stupid', especially when he started out as a backup

its like here we go again with KOBE, first he was too young a teen so he couldnt start offtop, now he is doing something that a 17yr vet has never done, but i bet none of those other players were backup players when they got drafted....ALCINDOR/WILT didnt ride the pine, that matters alot in sports, a 4yr gap is a lot of mileage on body, to preserve that is priceless, go ask KOBE

longevity doesnt make you great, your 'game' does

its funny how everybody on here can use he was too 'young' or now he is in his 17th season and hasnt declined

then when i say he was a backupguard everybody gets upset and irate like im making **** up


Its hard to decipher his decline since he started off as backup then won ships as sidekick/strongest no2 option ever, then went thru like a 7yr gap without a title(but won scoring titles), then hasnt gotten out of 2nd rd past couple yrs(with no scoring titles)

since he relys on way more skill than natural ability his decline will not be as noticed as a BRON, who came strait out of highschool and was basically allnba player his rookie yr, no 3-4yr backup program for him to preserve his body, his game was too much to sit on pine and wait for him to develop behind a avg-good player

i dont think people look at KOBEs inception as much as they look at his first title season of 2000....thats why i see it diff. because im speaking from day1 til now, which was always confusing to me on why he was being a backup guard but he was the franchise 'JORDAN' player, almost too funny..what did he do so extraordinary in 2000 that he didnt do in 96 beside start fulltime? or did he finally develop since he did enter the league as a 'teen'(doesnt all highschools have teens?), so he just came to league for recreation? not to compete for starting job day1?

I just found it too comical that JORDAN would ride the pine(dont you also?), i mean we talking about JORDAN(KOBE) right?

This is another thing really comical about KOBEFIENS and supporters alike:

'''''HAWKEYE15=And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever''''''''

....ITS THE SAME THING THEY SAY ABOUT JETER IN MLB CIRCLES, AND JETER IS NOWHERE NEAR TOP 10 EVER,JUST LIKE KOBE ISNT

to me LONGEVITY=GAME
he has had the same game(JORDANimage) since his 96draft day trade to LA, so to me thats why i rank you from day1inception...not yrs later when you make allstar team or when it fits my criteria, thats why i do it right way where it leaves no confusion..day1,game1 til career is a wrap, he developed into a 'superstar'(as told to me via mediaoutlets)

KOBE is the JETER, nothing wrong with that at all...big props, i like KOBE/JETER game, especially those overhyped moments he's had in postseasons in NY,priceless

He became a starter in year 3, and as a 2nd year player was playing 28 mpg.

I believe hawkeye was speaking in general in regards to Kobe, remember he absolutely despises Kobe lol.

Have honestly never heard someone use this excuse. He sat on the bench because at the time van exel and jones were better.

He's been great and has the longevity, they go hand in hand for him. While his peak may not be as great as others he sustained what he's been doing now for over a decade.

Apples and oranges, you can't compare the 2 at all. Jeter has never been the best player on his team nor been a top 5 player in his sport like Kobe.

Andrew32
11-13-2012, 03:09 PM
Are you saying Kobe has never been a top 3 player in the league? :speechless:

And i'm asking this because i respect you as a poster

He was arguably Top 3 from 06-09.
No others years though.

Chronz
11-13-2012, 03:10 PM
those backupguard yrs preserved his body so when he finally developed in his 4th yr, he was fresh

he had DIESEL to lean on for first 8yrs, that helps alot keeping body in tact/health, he wasnt shooting volume heavy, he was PIPP like(sidekick), wait did i just put KOBE and sidekick in same sentence(my apology LAKERfiens)

so in his 2nd yr 1998 he was a top 6 player? being one of top players for a decade is lovely, but calling him a top 4-6 player for 15yrs is very 'stupid', especially when he started out as a backup

its like here we go again with KOBE, first he was too young a teen so he couldnt start offtop, now he is doing something that a 17yr vet has never done, but i bet none of those other players were backup players when they got drafted....ALCINDOR/WILT didnt ride the pine, that matters alot in sports, a 4yr gap is a lot of mileage on body, to preserve that is priceless, go ask KOBE

longevity doesnt make you great, your 'game' does

its funny how everybody on here can use he was too 'young' or now he is in his 17th season and hasnt declined

then when i say he was a backupguard everybody gets upset and irate like im making **** up


Its hard to decipher his decline since he started off as backup then won ships as sidekick/strongest no2 option ever, then went thru like a 7yr gap without a title(but won scoring titles), then hasnt gotten out of 2nd rd past couple yrs(with no scoring titles)

since he relys on way more skill than natural ability his decline will not be as noticed as a BRON, who came strait out of highschool and was basically allnba player his rookie yr, no 3-4yr backup program for him to preserve his body, his game was too much to sit on pine and wait for him to develop behind a avg-good player

i dont think people look at KOBEs inception as much as they look at his first title season of 2000....thats why i see it diff. because im speaking from day1 til now, which was always confusing to me on why he was being a backup guard but he was the franchise 'JORDAN' player, almost too funny..what did he do so extraordinary in 2000 that he didnt do in 96 beside start fulltime? or did he finally develop since he did enter the league as a 'teen'(doesnt all highschools have teens?), so he just came to league for recreation? not to compete for starting job day1?

I just found it too comical that JORDAN would ride the pine(dont you also?), i mean we talking about JORDAN(KOBE) right?

This is another thing really comical about KOBEFIENS and supporters alike:

'''''HAWKEYE15=And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever''''''''

....ITS THE SAME THING THEY SAY ABOUT JETER IN MLB CIRCLES, AND JETER IS NOWHERE NEAR TOP 10 EVER,JUST LIKE KOBE ISNT

to me LONGEVITY=GAME
he has had the same game(JORDANimage) since his 96draft day trade to LA, so to me thats why i rank you from day1inception...not yrs later when you make allstar team or when it fits my criteria, thats why i do it right way where it leaves no confusion..day1,game1 til career is a wrap, he developed into a 'superstar'(as told to me via mediaoutlets)

KOBE is the JETER, nothing wrong with that at all...big props, i like KOBE/JETER game, especially those overhyped moments he's had in postseasons in NY,priceless

Nobody knows what the hell your saying. Be short and sweet and stop regurgitating the same flawed arguments.

Hawkeye15
11-13-2012, 03:13 PM
Are you saying Kobe has never been a top 3 player in the league? :speechless:

And i'm asking this because i respect you as a poster

he has, I simply put the range well out of his peak, and over his career, so its kind of a summarization. I have him 1b for a few years, fighting out the top spot with another guy.

Hawkeye15
11-13-2012, 03:15 PM
Nobody knows what the hell your saying. Be short and sweet and stop regurgitating the same flawed arguments.

I stopped reading his posts forever ago. They are all over the place, and I don't even know which point to try and debate.

nickdymez
11-13-2012, 03:45 PM
He was arguably Top 3 from 06-09.
No others years though.

This is silly.

RaiderLakersA's
11-13-2012, 03:53 PM
Forget Kobe's decline, when will threads like this sunset? God Almighty, 186 posts about the same thing we discussed LAST season, and the season before that, and the season before that. Enough already.

Andrew32
11-13-2012, 04:18 PM
This is silly.

What other years outside of 06-09 do you think he was arguably Top 3.
Maybe you could make an argument for 2001 but what other years?

Don't say 2010 cause he wasn't that year (not sure he was even Top 5 that year).

Greedy22
11-13-2012, 04:34 PM
What other years outside of 06-09 do you think he was arguably Top 3.
Maybe you could make an argument for 2001 but what other years?

Don't say 2010 cause he wasn't that year (not sure he was even Top 5 that year).

1 could argue 02-03 and 05-06.

DanG
11-13-2012, 04:34 PM
what other years outside of 06-09 do you think he was arguably top 3.
Maybe you could make an argument for 2001 but what other years?

Don't say 2010 cause he wasn't that year (not sure he was even top 5 that year).

03.

nickdymez
11-13-2012, 04:36 PM
What other years outside of 06-09 do you think he was arguably Top 3.
Maybe you could make an argument for 2001 but what other years?

Don't say 2010 cause he wasn't that year (not sure he was even Top 5 that year).

What do you mean by "Arguably"? Because many will argue that he was. Depends on what type of people you talk to. Advanced stat guy will say no because advanced stat guy thinks 100% inside of a little holinger box. The guy that watches people play and base their opinion on that mught say otherwise. 2010 I think you could make a case. Again, depends on who you ask

Andrew32
11-13-2012, 04:40 PM
03.
I don't think so.

Shaq, Duncan, KG and T-Mac were better that year and considering his injury and huge drop in effectiveness in the playoffs he might not even stay in my Top 5.

Even ignoring the injury or just focusing on the regular season he definitely wouldn't make my Top 3.

T-Mac was clearly better that year and Shaq/Duncan were far and away the Top 2.

Chronz
11-13-2012, 04:50 PM
What do you mean by "Arguably"? Because many will argue that he was. Depends on what type of people you talk to. Advanced stat guy will say no because advanced stat guy thinks 100% inside of a little holinger box. The guy that watches people play and base their opinion on that mught say otherwise. 2010 I think you could make a case. Again, depends on who you ask

Why do you always leave out the all important 3rd group? You know, the people that combine stats with what they see?

nickdymez
11-13-2012, 04:55 PM
Why do you always leave out the all important 3rd group? You know, the people that combine stats with what they see?

Because the people who argue basketball and use advanced stats come across as if they won an argument because they posted an advanced stat.

Greedy22
11-13-2012, 04:59 PM
I don't think so.

Shaq, Duncan, KG and T-Mac were better that year and considering his injury and huge drop in effectiveness in the playoffs he might not even stay in my Top 5.

Even ignoring the injury or just focusing on the regular season he definitely wouldn't make my Top 3.

T-Mac was clearly better that year and Shaq/Duncan were far and away the Top 2.

02-03 he was about on par with the bolded. He had them both beat in win shares, while shaq beat him 29.5 to 26.2 in PER and KG had a 26.4 to kobe's 26.2.

nickdymez
11-13-2012, 05:25 PM
02-03 he was about on par with the bolded. He had them both beat in win shares, while shaq beat him 29.5 to 26.2 in PER and KG had a 26.4 to kobe's 26.2.

See what I mean.

Greedy22
11-13-2012, 05:29 PM
See what I mean.

I believe he was top 3-5 that year even when using advanced stats. The only player clearly better that year was T-Mac..

Andrew32
11-13-2012, 05:34 PM
02-03 he was about on par with the bolded. He had them both beat in win shares, while shaq beat him 29.5 to 26.2 in PER and KG had a 26.4 to kobe's 26.2.

While I can respect your opinion I really don't think Kobe was on-par with Shaq in 2003.


2003

Regular Season

Shaq : 28 / 11 / 3apg / 2.5bpg on 60%TS
Shaq : 30-PER / .250-WSP48

Kobe : 30 / 7 / 6 on 55%TS
Kobe : 26-PER / .210-WSP48

RAPM (offensive + defensive)
--------------------
Shaq : 5.1 (3rd in the league)
Kobe : 2.8 (23rd in the league)
____________________________________

Playoffs

Shaq : 27 / 15 / 4apg / 3bpg on 57%TS
Shaq : 30.6-PER / .240-WSP48

Kobe : 32 / 5 / 5 on 53%TS
Kobe : 22.2-PER / .131-WSP48

The playoffs are what really firmly separated the two even though obviously a big reason for Kobe's decline was an injury he suffered during the first round.

Lakers4life08
11-13-2012, 05:37 PM
Don't know when Kobe declines,but Wade is really looks like declined a lot this season.

Andrew32
11-13-2012, 05:41 PM
Don't know when Kobe declines,but Wade is really looks like declined a lot this season.
Really?

By my count Wade has been excellent in 4/7 games and decent in 2/7 games.
He has really only had one bad game so far against Memphis.

Last game against Houston he had 20 / 6 / 7ast on 45% shooting.

Bit early to be judging players though.

5ass
11-13-2012, 05:46 PM
he will decline on January 17, 2014 at around 2:35 pm eastern time.
close thread. Not because i just answered the question, but because this is a really stupid thread.

Lakers4life08
11-13-2012, 05:50 PM
Really?

By my count Wade has been excellent in 4/7 games and decent in 2/7 games.
He has really only had one bad game so far against Memphis.

Last game against Houston he had 20 / 6 / 7ast on 45% shooting.

Bit early to be judging players though.

if you are superstar you need to be excellent in all games,well maybe one game you can have bad....Kobe has been excellent in all games,even when he had bad shooting nigh against Sacramento,he had 6 rebs 6 assists....wade....he looks like lost step or two....

Andrew32
11-13-2012, 05:53 PM
Wade....he looks like lost step or two....
I don't think so but time will tell.

Don't forget he is on a very deep team so that doesn't really lend itself to single players padding stats.

Plus they have so much depth at the wing positions.

His stats could go down but that doesn't mean he has regressed in terms of ability.
I think he'll think end up averaging at worst 22 / 4 / 4 on superb efficiency.

Greedy22
11-13-2012, 05:54 PM
While I can respect your opinion I really don't think Kobe was on-par with Shaq in 2003.



The playoffs are what really firmly separated the two even though obviously a big reason for Kobe's decline was an injury he suffered during the first round.

Reg season they were pretty damn close and Shaq did miss 15 games healing on "company time" which always pissed me off. Definitely can agree about the playoffs though, honestly thought we were talking strictly reg season.

Greedy22
11-13-2012, 05:56 PM
Really?

By my count Wade has been excellent in 4/7 games and decent in 2/7 games.
He has really only had one bad game so far against Memphis.

Last game against Houston he had 20 / 6 / 7ast on 45% shooting.

Bit early to be judging players though.

It's gonna be hard to judge if he's declined as well playing with Lebron. I'll give him time to get back 100% after his knee surgery before I decide if he's declined.

nickdymez
11-13-2012, 06:00 PM
he will decline on January 17, 2014 at around 2:35 pm eastern time.
close thread. Not because i just answered the question, but because this is a really stupid thread.

15 pages later....

Chronz
11-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Because the people who argue basketball and use advanced stats come across as if they won an argument because they posted an advanced stat.
That doesn't make sense. So what do the people who rely solely on stats do? Wouldn't they be the ones who rely solely on stats to do the talking for them, yet you saw fit to mention them.


Why the inconsistency ?

HowFit
11-13-2012, 06:06 PM
It's gonna be hard to judge if he's declined as well playing with Lebron. I'll give him time to get back 100% after his knee surgery before I decide if he's declined.

Most definitely...

Chronz
11-13-2012, 06:11 PM
Reg season they were pretty damn close and Shaq did miss 15 games healing on "company time" which always pissed me off. Definitely can agree about the playoffs though, honestly thought we were talking strictly reg season.

It shouldn't piss you off because it should have been alot longer. He should have been out for most of the year with the surgery that would have actually corrected his toe injury.

And those 15 games should emphatically prove why Kobe wasn't in Shaq's league as a player. What was their record without Shaq? Without Kobe, Shaq never lost so frequently.

Gram
11-13-2012, 06:14 PM
Kobe Bryant.

Greedy22
11-13-2012, 09:53 PM
It shouldn't piss you off because it should have been alot longer. He should have been out for most of the year with the surgery that would have actually corrected his toe injury.

And those 15 games should emphatically prove why Kobe wasn't in Shaq's league as a player. What was their record without Shaq? Without Kobe, Shaq never lost so frequently.

It does piss me off because his attitude about by not rehabbing in the offseason, you're paid HUGE money by them to be at your best, not be a lazy slug and come into season after season out of shape.

5-10 without and 45-22 with.

Chronz
11-13-2012, 10:09 PM
It does piss me off because his attitude about by not rehabbing in the offseason, you're paid HUGE money by them to be at your best, not be a lazy slug and come into season after season out of shape.

5-10 without and 45-22 with.

So you completely ignore the fact that he chose to get a procedure that would save the Lakers season rather than one that would prolong his career?

And what do you mean season after season? Making it sound like he was just some fat slob who couldn't log heavy minutes and take a pounding because of his conditioning. He had his ups and downs but I dont think you know his body better than him.

Greedy22
11-14-2012, 04:19 AM
It does piss me off because his attitude about by not rehabbing in the offseason, you're paid HUGE money by them to be at your best, not be a lazy slug and come into season after season out of shape.

5-10 without and 45-22 with.

So you completely ignore the fact that he chose to get a procedure that would save the Lakers season rather than one that would prolong his career?

And what do you mean season after season? Making it sound like he was just some fat slob who couldn't log heavy minutes and take a pounding because of his conditioning. He had his ups and downs but I dont think you know his body better than him. prolong his career? The dude played 19 years, that's a pretty damn long career. After the 1st title he came into training camp out of shape every year after that, it's pretty well documented. Even Malone and Payton were pissed about it after he promised them he'd be in shape by camp.

shep33
11-14-2012, 04:54 AM
Kobe's been awesome this season so far

GREATNESS ONE
11-14-2012, 05:06 AM
Super awesome.

jayjay33
11-14-2012, 05:07 AM
It does piss me off because his attitude about by not rehabbing in the offseason, you're paid HUGE money by them to be at your best, not be a lazy slug and come into season after season out of shape.

5-10 without and 45-22 with.

So you completely ignore the fact that he chose to get a procedure that would save the Lakers season rather than one that would prolong his career?

And what do you mean season after season? Making it sound like he was just some fat slob who couldn't log heavy minutes and take a pounding because of his conditioning. He had his ups and downs but I dont think you know his body better than him. prolong his career? The dude played 19 years, that's a pretty damn long career. After the 1st title he came into training camp out of shape every year after that, it's pretty well documented. Even Malone and Payton were pissed about it after he promised them he'd be in shape by camp.


I must admitt that's true.......

One more thing, just curious. what's the point in comparing kobes record without shaq to shaq's record with Kobe. I don't really understand the logic behind that. Unless your just trying to spin. But maybe I'm just slow.

jayjay33
11-14-2012, 05:36 AM
I mean, Kareem, Karl Malone, and a few others were still kicking *** at age 37-38, in their 17th seasons. Its beyond rare however. And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever. But simply being a top 4-6 player for 15 years is stupid. How does he do that? That is why I personally have him in the top 10.


those backupguard yrs preserved his body so when he finally developed in his 4th yr, he was fresh

he had DIESEL to lean on for first 8yrs, that helps alot keeping body in tact/health, he wasnt shooting volume heavy, he was PIPP like(sidekick), wait did i just put KOBE and sidekick in same sentence(my apology LAKERfiens)

so in his 2nd yr 1998 he was a top 6 player? being one of top players for a decade is lovely, but calling him a top 4-6 player for 15yrs is very 'stupid', especially when he started out as a backup

its like here we go again with KOBE, first he was too young a teen so he couldnt start offtop, now he is doing something that a 17yr vet has never done, but i bet none of those other players were backup players when they got drafted....ALCINDOR/WILT didnt ride the pine, that matters alot in sports, a 4yr gap is a lot of mileage on body, to preserve that is priceless, go ask KOBE

longevity doesnt make you great, your 'game' does

its funny how everybody on here can use he was too 'young' or now he is in his 17th season and hasnt declined

then when i say he was a backupguard everybody gets upset and irate like im making **** up


Its hard to decipher his decline since he started off as backup then won ships as sidekick/strongest no2 option ever, then went thru like a 7yr gap without a title(but won scoring titles), then hasnt gotten out of 2nd rd past couple yrs(with no scoring titles)

since he relys on way more skill than natural ability his decline will not be as noticed as a BRON, who came strait out of highschool and was basically allnba player his rookie yr, no 3-4yr backup program for him to preserve his body, his game was too much to sit on pine and wait for him to develop behind a avg-good player

i dont think people look at KOBEs inception as much as they look at his first title season of 2000....thats why i see it diff. because im speaking from day1 til now, which was always confusing to me on why he was being a backup guard but he was the franchise 'JORDAN' player, almost too funny..what did he do so extraordinary in 2000 that he didnt do in 96 beside start fulltime? or did he finally develop since he did enter the league as a 'teen'(doesnt all highschools have teens?), so he just came to league for recreation? not to compete for starting job day1?

I just found it too comical that JORDAN would ride the pine(dont you also?), i mean we talking about JORDAN(KOBE) right?

This is another thing really comical about KOBEFIENS and supporters alike:

'''''HAWKEYE15=And yes, his longevity is what defines his greatness, not his peak, which doesn't stack up with many/most of the other top 10 players ever''''''''

....ITS THE SAME THING THEY SAY ABOUT JETER IN MLB CIRCLES, AND JETER IS NOWHERE NEAR TOP 10 EVER,JUST LIKE KOBE ISNT

to me LONGEVITY=GAME
he has had the same game(JORDANimage) since his 96draft day trade to LA, so to me thats why i rank you from day1inception...not yrs later when you make allstar team or when it fits my criteria, thats why i do it right way where it leaves no confusion..day1,game1 til career is a wrap, he developed into a 'superstar'(as told to me via mediaoutlets)

KOBE is the JETER, nothing wrong with that at all...big props, i like KOBE/JETER game, especially those overhyped moments he's had in postseasons in NY,priceless


You do realize the guy in front of Kobe at the time was an allstar and and all defensive player (an not just avg-good) right? A guy comes in the league fresh out of high school and he supposed take and allstars spot. Did you really just try make that argument?

Can you name some guys who came into the league and just took an allstars spot? I will even give you a handicap they don't have to be fresh out of high school like Kobe was. You can throw any college player in there as well.

thenaj17
11-14-2012, 06:39 AM
he has, I simply put the range well out of his peak, and over his career, so its kind of a summarization. I have him 1b for a few years, fighting out the top spot with another guy.

Oh ok that's fine then, I see what you mean now. I thought you were rating Kobe like Andrew32 does - with blind hatred.

bagwell368
11-14-2012, 07:34 AM
Kobe has been in decline since 2008-2009. Don't let 10% of the season blind anyone to that fact. He'll be back to earth before too long.

thenaj17
11-14-2012, 07:52 AM
Kobe has been in decline since 2008-2009. Don't let 10% of the season blind anyone to that fact. He'll be back to earth before too long.

Kobe didn't decline in 2010 either. He controlled the playoffs and especially the finals. (Just because he shot bad in game 7, doesn't discredit what he did the whole series)

It was pretty unanimous league-wide that Kobe would have won finals MVP whether Lakers or Celtics won the title. You don't do that without being a top player

RowBTrice
11-14-2012, 10:11 AM
2011

bagwell368
11-14-2012, 10:26 AM
Kobe didn't decline in 2010 either. He controlled the playoffs and especially the finals. (Just because he shot bad in game 7, doesn't discredit what he did the whole series)

It was pretty unanimous league-wide that Kobe would have won finals MVP whether Lakers or Celtics won the title. You don't do that without being a top player

Hey Champ. We are talking Kobe compared to himself. He's not the same player. Period.

He was better regular season and/or playoffs in 2008-2009 than any season since then - fact. That was his 12th season in the league. A lot of HOF players start declining at or around year 12.

When this year is over, he may or may not have another ring, but his play will be below 2008-2009.

Chronz
11-14-2012, 10:49 AM
prolong his career? The dude played 19 years, that's a pretty damn long career. After the 1st title he came into training camp out of shape every year after that, it's pretty well documented. Even Malone and Payton were pissed about it after he promised them he'd be in shape by camp.

I should have said prolonged his prime. You still didn't answer the question. Would you have been less mad if Shaq didn't take his time weighing his option, getting different opinions and just outright chose his career ahead of the Lakers season? Him choosing whats best for him would have made you less/more mad?

And its well documented that he still taking the kind of punishment that nobody ever has in the modern era while playing heavy minutes. You make it sound like he was Eddy Curry out there when in reality he knows his body better than you.

Malone and Payton still chose to follow Shaq so they couldn't have been that mad about it. In fact Malones decision to retire or not was based heavily on whether Shaq would come back to LA. Payton kept playing but would eventually find his way back to Shaq.

And again, nobody knows the punishment his body takes like Shaq does so ......

Chronz
11-14-2012, 10:51 AM
I must admitt that's true.......

One more thing, just curious. what's the point in comparing kobes record without shaq to shaq's record with Kobe. I don't really understand the logic behind that. Unless your just trying to spin. But maybe I'm just slow.

I was comparing their records without each other, its a common theme with Kobe/Shaq, if you look at the on/off court value, the immediate impact each has when leaving/joining a new squad, its clear Shaq has a dramatic impact on his teams level of play. You cant teach size

Money_23
11-14-2012, 11:52 AM
it is a fact that Kobe's is declining/has been declining for a few years now.
but it is also a fact that he's still a top player/best sg in the league even with the decline. It just shows how incredibly good Kobe is. A player in his 17th season, who many people consider to be out of his prime, is still the best player at his position.

nickdymez
11-14-2012, 12:39 PM
Hey Champ. We are talking Kobe compared to himself. He's not the same player. Period.

He was better regular season and/or playoffs in 2008-2009 than any season since then - fact. That was his 12th season in the league. A lot of HOF players start declining at or around year 12.

When this year is over, he may or may not have another ring, but his play will be below 2008-2009.

Its not looking like it there chief....

Greedy22
11-14-2012, 12:52 PM
prolong his career? The dude played 19 years, that's a pretty damn long career. After the 1st title he came into training camp out of shape every year after that, it's pretty well documented. Even Malone and Payton were pissed about it after he promised them he'd be in shape by camp.

I should have said prolonged his prime. You still didn't answer the question. Would you have been less mad if Shaq didn't take his time weighing his option, getting different opinions and just outright chose his career ahead of the Lakers season? Him choosing whats best for him would have made you less/more mad?

And its well documented that he still taking the kind of punishment that nobody ever has in the modern era while playing heavy minutes. You make it sound like he was Eddy Curry out there when in reality he knows his body better than you.

Malone and Payton still chose to follow Shaq so they couldn't have been that mad about it. In fact Malones decision to retire or not was based heavily on whether Shaq would come back to LA. Payton kept playing but would eventually find his way back to Shaq.

And again, nobody knows the punishment his body takes like Shaq does so ...... i wouldn't be mad if he chose to prolong his career and I'm thankful he chose to play of course, but that doesn't change the fact that he had a pretty poor attitude about it and still came in out of shape. They signed in July and training camp didn't start for almost another 3 months, I'm sure they thought he'd get himself in shape and when he didn't they actually openly complained about it. You're right, I don't know the punishment, but you'd be a fool to say he was coming into the season in shape. He was always using the first part of the season to get into playing shape. Anyways we're off topic, different thread for a different day.

jayjay33
11-14-2012, 12:53 PM
I must admitt that's true.......

One more thing, just curious. what's the point in comparing kobes record without shaq to shaq's record with Kobe. I don't really understand the logic behind that. Unless your just trying to spin. But maybe I'm just slow.

I was comparing their records without each other, its a common theme with Kobe/Shaq, if you look at the on/off court value, the immediate impact each has when leaving/joining a new squad, its clear Shaq has a dramatic impact on his teams level of play. You cant teach size


Comparing impact? Shaq has 1 ring with penny and wade. Kobe has 2 with gasol. But if your saying shaq had more impact with penny or wade than Kobe had without gasol or any kind of replacement then I agree.

Shaq+ penny or wade > Kobe. No argument here.

jayjay33
11-14-2012, 12:58 PM
prolong his career? The dude played 19 years, that's a pretty damn long career. After the 1st title he came into training camp out of shape every year after that, it's pretty well documented. Even Malone and Payton were pissed about it after he promised them he'd be in shape by camp.

I should have said prolonged his prime. You still didn't answer the question. Would you have been less mad if Shaq didn't take his time weighing his option, getting different opinions and just outright chose his career ahead of the Lakers season? Him choosing whats best for him would have made you less/more mad?

And its well documented that he still taking the kind of punishment that nobody ever has in the modern era while playing heavy minutes. You make it sound like he was Eddy Curry out there when in reality he knows his body better than you.

Malone and Payton still chose to follow Shaq so they couldn't have been that mad about it. In fact Malones decision to retire or not was based heavily on whether Shaq would come back to LA. Payton kept playing but would eventually find his way back to Shaq.

And again, nobody knows the punishment his body takes like Shaq does so ......


So then I guess you can never call any player on being out of shape.

Greedy22
11-14-2012, 01:01 PM
I must admitt that's true.......

One more thing, just curious. what's the point in comparing kobes record without shaq to shaq's record with Kobe. I don't really understand the logic behind that. Unless your just trying to spin. But maybe I'm just slow.

I was comparing their records without each other, its a common theme with Kobe/Shaq, if you look at the on/off court value, the immediate impact each has when leaving/joining a new squad, its clear Shaq has a dramatic impact on his teams level of play. You cant teach size this is actually a good assessment and I honestly didn't even think about when talking about their level of play.

Huss-O-Lin
11-14-2012, 01:02 PM
every single last one of you are 100% wrong. KOBE.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-14-2012, 01:08 PM
It's just crazy seeing the guy shoot 55% from the field, 44% from 3 pt range and 92% from the line. He's doing his best Nash impersonation. ;)

RaiderLakersA's
11-14-2012, 01:14 PM
it is a fact that Kobe's is declining/has been declining for a few years now.
but it is also a fact that he's still a top player/best sg in the league even with the decline. It just shows how incredibly good Kobe is. A player in his 17th season, who many people consider to be out of his prime, is still the best player at his position.

When Kobe goes into the Hall of Fame, the inscription on his bust will echo this sentiment.

In boxing they have a term to quantify (and perhaps qualify) the greatness of fighters among different weight classes: "pound for pound." Someone needs to coin something similar for Kobe and others like him. "Grain for grain" perhaps, since that connotes both time (e.g., sand in an hourglass) and the composition of the greater whole.

There have been only a handful of truly phenomenal players in the NBA all-time. Grain for grain, Kobe should be included in that number.

Greedy22
11-14-2012, 02:26 PM
It's just crazy seeing the guy shoot 55% from the field, 44% from 3 pt range and 92% from the line. He's doing his best Nash impersonation. ;) he should've taken the last shot against the spurs :sigh:

Chronz
11-14-2012, 02:35 PM
Comparing impact? Shaq has 1 ring with penny and wade. Kobe has 2 with gasol.
Not sure what that has to do with my statement. But yes Im comparing the impact they had on their teams, not the amount of rings collected.



But if your saying shaq had more impact with penny or wade than Kobe had without gasol or any kind of replacement then I agree.
Not at all, Im comparing how the Lakers have fared with Kobe but without Shaq, vs with Shaq but without Kobe. Throughout their stay together the Lakers had a hard time staying at .500 if Shaq wasn't suiting up. Without Kobe but with Shaq however, he led them to a strong winning %. Obviously Kobe makes the Lakers better but his absence wasn't as noticeable. Its a trend throughout their careers (on/off court value).



Shaq+ penny or wade > Kobe. No argument here.
Well yeah, it would take a moron of epic proportions to think thats even in question. Im actually baffled that you would actually think that was the argument.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-14-2012, 02:43 PM
he should've taken the last shot against the spurs :sigh:

Yes, but dumb Metta inbounded the ball to Pau, who was already trapped at the corner. That's the worst spot to inbound the ball. Low IQ Metta. :facepalm:

LA_Raiders
11-14-2012, 02:45 PM
Not this year. So far he is 27/5/5

Chronz
11-14-2012, 02:45 PM
So then I guess you can never call any player on being out of shape.
That depends, being out of shape Eddy Curry style is entirely different than say a Carmelo Anthony fitness level. With regards to Shaq, hes so unique in how much punishment his body takes that I give him some leeway on that end. He knows the rigors an NBA season and the toll it has on his body better than anyone.

Hes done things the way others have asked and has seen firsthand the various effects of those regimens. Like when Riley motivated him to come to camp at a peak fitness level, he said that year the hits really lingered and it was the first time in his career that his body wasn't even remotely ready for the playoffs. Their medical staff didn't help but Riley has overworked players before, its cost him championships several times over. So the next year Shaq does it his own way and wins a title. Hes no saint and he has had missteps in the past, but people get carried away with the fat slob labels. Those kind of titles are reserved for guys like Curry/Odom and even to a lesser extent a guy like Melo. But when a guy plays a grown mans game and spends his time dishing and receiving punishment in the paint, you have to give him some leeway on how to prep his body for the RS+PS run.

shep33
11-14-2012, 02:58 PM
27-5-5 (about)... 55% from the field, 44% from 3, 92% from the line. Shooting less (thank god). He's playing unreal right now

Chronz
11-14-2012, 03:06 PM
If any Laker fans are reading this, could Kobe not play how he has this year, last year? Not trying to insult anyone, I actually think Kobe got too much hate for shooting so much last year but this is a pretty big difference in Kobe's game.

MetroMan
11-14-2012, 03:07 PM
Mamba will never die

MetroMan out

jayjay33
11-14-2012, 04:22 PM
Not sure what that has to do with my statement. But yes Im comparing the impact they had on their teams, not the amount of rings collected.



Not at all, Im comparing how the Lakers have fared with Kobe but without Shaq, vs with Shaq but without Kobe. Throughout their stay together the Lakers had a hard time staying at .500 if Shaq wasn't suiting up. Without Kobe but with Shaq however, he led them to a strong winning %. Obviously Kobe makes the Lakers better but his absence wasn't as noticeable. Its a trend throughout their careers (on/off court value).



Well yeah, it would take a moron of epic proportions to think thats even in question. Im actually baffled that you would actually think that was the argument.


If your not sure what rings have to do with judging their impact on there teams then.....then you might want to rethink some things. You used winning games as an example of the impact they had on their teams but your not sure what winning rings has to with it. So winning gams is impact but winning championship thats not impact. Only on the psd....lmao



I cant even count the number of ways that comparison is flawed. Age, points in their career's, incredible small sample size. It's just ridiculous in so many ways. Kobe's absence wasn't noticeable through out his career? After shaq left,The one year kobe only played in 66 games his team won 34 and missed the playoff's. An it's never happen since. I noticed that, an I think alot of other people did as well.


Then it's moronic to compare their impact on other teams. If shaq cleary had better teams. I'm baffled by your attempt to compare them. why don't you compare their winning % between teams with at least comparable talent.
Put kobe's winning with another allstar big up against shaq winning with another allstar wing. If you don't then all your really saying is shaq played with more talent. which we already know.

Given equal (or close to it) level of talent kobe will win just as much as shaq.

jayjay33
11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
That depends, being out of shape Eddy Curry style is entirely different than say a Carmelo Anthony fitness level. With regards to Shaq, hes so unique in how much punishment his body takes that I give him some leeway on that end. He knows the rigors an NBA season and the toll it has on his body better than anyone.

Hes done things the way others have asked and has seen firsthand the various effects of those regimens. Like when Riley motivated him to come to camp at a peak fitness level, he said that year the hits really lingered and it was the first time in his career that his body wasn't even remotely ready for the playoffs. Their medical staff didn't help but Riley has overworked players before, its cost him championships several times over. So the next year Shaq does it his own way and wins a title. Hes no saint and he has had missteps in the past, but people get carried away with the fat slob labels. Those kind of titles are reserved for guys like Curry/Odom and even to a lesser extent a guy like Melo. But when a guy plays a grown mans game and spends his time dishing and receiving punishment in the paint, you have to give him some leeway on how to prep his body for the RS+PS run.

Everyone acknowledges Shaw was lazy. He clearly had a poor work ethic. Do we have to give him leeway on how he ate to. Shaq didnt take very good care of himself. We know and he knows it. An has even said it.

Bruno
11-14-2012, 04:34 PM
Lakers have already played 10% of their regular season games for 2012-2013. Through eight games, Kobe is...

Leading the NBA in win-shares (yep, he's leading LBJ by fractions of a point).
He's 3rd in WS/48 (fractions behind LBJ).
dominating with his lowest USG% since 1999-2000.
4th in PER (on pace with his 2006 production).
has TS% of .668 (good enough for 7th in the NBA).

now, this could all end quickly if his minutes continue to be in the high 30's, but for anyone who has been watching, his play has been one of the few bright spots for LAL thus far. it's been great to watch.

as a fan who has acknowledged Kobes lack of intensity on defense since 2010, he's having his best defensive year since 2009 as well. you can see the hustle out there, he's not taking plays off.

Greedy22
11-14-2012, 04:55 PM
If any Laker fans are reading this, could Kobe not play how he has this year, last year? Not trying to insult anyone, I actually think Kobe got too much hate for shooting so much last year but this is a pretty big difference in Kobe's game.

It's surprising to me, I've never seen him so willing to pass to teammates. Highest number of FGA so far this year is 23 which is I believe below his per game average last year. I love the way he's playing.

bagwell368
11-14-2012, 09:45 PM
Its not looking like it there chief....

Season is young, and Kobe is growing old.

RaiderLakersA's
11-14-2012, 10:02 PM
Kobe will look even younger when the other Lakers players start pulling their weight. It's as simple as that. Instead of asking when Kobe will decline, someone ought to ask when will the rest of the team revive, emerge and play consistently great b-ball. Right now you can't ask for more from the Mamba. He's playing like he has teammates.

WAYNEBO
11-15-2012, 06:07 PM
Mambas don't age, they just shed their skin...

Kobe is/will age gracefully and continue to play at a high usage level.. Look at his shooting % in last nights game. A superstar, not someone in decline.

dh144498
11-15-2012, 07:33 PM
Lakers have already played 10% of their regular season games for 2012-2013. Through eight games, Kobe is...

Leading the NBA in win-shares (yep, he's leading LBJ by fractions of a point).
He's 3rd in WS/48 (fractions behind LBJ).
dominating with his lowest USG% since 1999-2000.
4th in PER (on pace with his 2006 production).
has TS% of .668 (good enough for 7th in the NBA).

now, this could all end quickly if his minutes continue to be in the high 30's, but for anyone who has been watching, his play has been one of the few bright spots for LAL thus far. it's been great to watch.

as a fan who has acknowledged Kobes lack of intensity on defense since 2010, he's having his best defensive year since 2009 as well. you can see the hustle out there, he's not taking plays off.

kobe actually has a ws48 of .294 now vs lebron's .278.

mrblisterdundee
11-15-2012, 08:02 PM
I think Kobe Bryant will stay pretty close to his current level until he retires. If he decides to come back or not retire, that's when we might start seeing the dip. One of the most overlooked stats this season is Kobe averaging 26.4 points per game and making 55 percent of his shots.
Don't forget Michael Jordan coming back at 40 and averaging 2o points, five boards and five assists per game.