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basketfan4life
11-05-2012, 11:04 AM
What was it, you had a fact or an idea, an opinion....You tried to explain it here to a person or an entire fan base, or fans in general, but whatever you tried, it didn't work, you couldn't explain.

Or you witnessed someone trying so hard to explain but couldn't ?

For example;

-Some fan bases couldn't understand the Nets' only difference from last year isn't JJ. Brook Lopez didn't play last year, Crash only for 13 games or what? A lot of solid role players. A lot of people tried to explain it but whenever the topic comes up, some people come up and the first thing they is; "Their only difference from last year is JJ, how are they going to win 45-50 games this year"...

-Omer Asik's contract is going to affect Houston's cap 8-8-8 not 5-5-15 just because the Bulls didn't match that contract.

- LBJ's stats are probably more impressive than big O's tripple double season if you adjust it to pace. Even LBJ himself isn't aware of that i think, based on his comments.

What are yours ?

KnicksorBust
11-05-2012, 11:19 AM
Interesting idea for a thread. These were the ones that popped to mind:

Harden is a better fit with KD than Westbrook and is a legit #1 option.

The Knicks are better without Amar'e.

Ewing didn't have enough help to win a chip.

IndyRealist
11-05-2012, 11:43 AM
The Pacers are more than the sum of their parts. People thought Danny Granger was easily replaceable, and look how much the offense is struggling now. We're 2-1, but we had soft teams for the first 3. I see the Pacers getting walloped by San Antonio tonight.

Rebounding is important.

Shooting efficiently on a moderate volume is better than shooting inefficiently on a high volume.

Players do not create shots. Plays create shots.

If an advanced statistic adds the error (how much it seems to be off by) back in, then it doesn't really measure anything.

PER is pseudoscience.

Opportunity costs. If you employ a center that doesn't rebound, then you are forfeiting the rebounds you would have gotten from even an average center.

The "eye test" needs to be taken with a grain of salt because....

....There are 1230 games in an NBA season, plus playoffs. You didn't watch them all.

Raph12
11-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Dwight is better than Bynum offensively, including in the post/iso, despite Bynum looking more fluid... I've explained it and backed it up with stats, but people are ignorant.

Better FG% in postplays, turns it over less, creates more for himself (not counting offensive rebounds), scores much more in post situations, is a better scorer off of the offensive boards, passes the ball better and is an umpteen times better pnr player.

...

Of course the natural response is "Bynum's a bit better offensively, but Dwight's a much better defensive player/rebounder"... Damn people are stupid.

MR.TRIPDUB
11-05-2012, 12:28 PM
You cant measure heart and leadership with advanced stats. Re: kobe, kidd, iverson.

Iverson didnt carry a bunch of scrubs into the finals. Those "scrubs" were chosen for his benefit. It was their defense that got them there. They were the ultimate role players.

When gms sign jkidd, they sign him not for his stats but for his leadership and bbiq.

Adjusting pace for inter generation comparison is a huge assumption.

Guppyfighter
11-05-2012, 12:38 PM
That it is really not butter.

asandhu23
11-05-2012, 12:49 PM
the PSD server issues.

Gram
11-05-2012, 01:09 PM
Gram needs to be permabanned.

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 01:29 PM
For starters, most NBA forum posters have no concept of advanced statistics, which is why so many have biased, incorrect opinions like Kobe being better than Lebron or Tyreke Evans being a promising young player.

I constantly try to explain to people that Kevin Martin was awful in Houston last season despite what his numbers say and that the Rockets easily won that Harden deal by trading him, when they probably would have struggled to get a late first round pick for him a year ago.

People ripped Daryl Morey like crazy prior to the Harden trade, but they don't understand the guy's logic or his incredible eye for talent in the draft and in value trades. The Morey hate threads were just infuriating.

The Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain argument. I get that Wilt posted better numbers. No one is debating that. But Russell's teams dominated Wilt's teams and Russell didn't always have superior talent on his side. Anyone who puts Wilt in their all-time top 10 HAS to put Russell in their top 10.

Market value. Everyone destroys GMs for overpaying for contracts and claims the CBA agreement was a joke, but nobody looks around at what players of similar talent are getting. Look at what Jeremy Lin and Omer Asik are producing and what they made and then look at what players of similar talent and production are making. That's how you determine fair market value.

LAKERMANIA
11-05-2012, 02:42 PM
Just because Kobe was not the first option doesn't mean the Lakers could have won 3 titles in a row without him..

Further, just because Kobe was not the first option doesn't mean you can replace him with whoever you want and still have the same result the Lakers had in 2000-2002..

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 02:47 PM
Just because Kobe was not the first option doesn't mean the Lakers could have won 3 titles in a row without him..

Further, just because Kobe was not the first option doesn't mean you can replace him with whoever you want and still have the same result the Lakers had in 2000-2002..

I could take any other top 5-10 wing of the era, insert them into that team and they probably still won those three titles. If you insert VC, Pierce or T-Mac for Kobe, not only do they win at least as many titles, it's possible their egos never would have clashed and Shaq would have been a Laker for longer.

Blitzbolt
11-05-2012, 03:06 PM
2 things
How Kevin love stats=Losses

D Rose choke factor(MarioC) but people thing I'm just a HEAT fan but it has more to do with the Memphis Tigers college days.

LAKERMANIA
11-05-2012, 03:12 PM
I could take any other top 5-10 wing of the era, insert them into that team and they probably still won those three titles.
No you won't because Kobe was a superior defender those years compared to any of the top 10 wings in the era. VC and Tmac are great offensively, but not as good defensively.


If you insert VC, Pierce or T-Mac for Kobe, not only do they win at least as many titles, it's possible their egos never would have clashed and Shaq would have been a Laker for longer.
You don't know that for sure.

dh144498
11-05-2012, 03:57 PM
I could take any other top 5-10 wing of the era, insert them into that team and they probably still won those three titles. If you insert VC, Pierce or T-Mac for Kobe, not only do they win at least as many titles, it's possible their egos never would have clashed and Shaq would have been a Laker for longer.

we have a time traveler here.

koreancabbage
11-05-2012, 03:59 PM
one word people:

DOMEFAVORS

C_Mund
11-05-2012, 04:28 PM
I could take any other top 5-10 wing of the era, insert them into that team and they probably still won those three titles. If you insert VC, Pierce or T-Mac for Kobe, not only do they win at least as many titles, it's possible their egos never would have clashed and Shaq would have been a Laker for longer.

Haha, I agree with the first half of your statement but Vince and T-Mac are cousins and wouldn't even play on the same team. What makes you think they'd play with Shaq?

topdog
11-05-2012, 04:58 PM
Every team makes bad draft picks, we tend to forget them when a team does well and forgive them when they are outside the lottery.

Advanced stats have their purpose, but are quite imperfect. Context becomes muddied.

Linsanity was a product of D'Antoni's offensive scheming and some timely shooting.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 05:01 PM
I could take any other top 5-10 wing of the era, insert them into that team and they probably still won those three titles. If you insert VC, Pierce or T-Mac for Kobe, not only do they win at least as many titles, it's possible their egos never would have clashed and Shaq would have been a Laker for longer.

Vince, TMAC or Pierce didn't have the basketball IQ that Kobe had coming into the league. Vince is one of the worst IQ players of all time, TMAC was never really known for extraordinary IQ but still had some, and Pierce was a very low IQ player in his young days when he, Antoine Walker, Walter McCarty and Tony Delk would just chuck up 3's for those late 90s/early 2000s Celtics.

ManRam
11-05-2012, 05:02 PM
I once tried to explain that Kobe Bryant was ever once in his career a better player than LeBron James, but I couldn't.

Proceed as you see fit, PSD.

JasonJohnHorn
11-05-2012, 05:14 PM
Just because somebody scores the most does make them the best offensive player (FG% counts for a LOT), nor is somebody the best player in the league just because they lead the league in scoring.

StarvingKnick22
11-05-2012, 05:23 PM
This belongs in the GD forum but:
John Stockton can be considered better than Magic
Walt Frazier isn't a top ten all time PG
Melo can be just as good as Lebron
my house is ****ing haunted.

JasonJohnHorn
11-05-2012, 05:33 PM
This belongs in the GD forum but:
John Stockton can be considered better than Magic YES
Walt Frazier isn't a top ten all time PG YES
Melo can be just as good as Lebron Really? You mean if he started passing the ball and playing defense? I need you to explain this one.
my house is ****ing haunted. Yeah?


My cmments in bold next to your.

StarvingKnick22
11-05-2012, 05:54 PM
My cmments in bold next to your.

What I like about you is that you are you're own man, and not a little peer pressured kid like most of these guys here. Melo has improved outstandingly since the Olympics. Last game I thing he had two or three blocks, which he blocked out into the stands, and recovered for a rebound himself. He made Wade look childish and gave LeBron hell. His passing is also great, yes he is still taking alot of unneeded shot, but for every miss he has 2 made shots. I am just saying he can get closer to Lebron's level and apparently I a fool, an idiot, and a homer.

Nick O
11-05-2012, 06:03 PM
Chris Bosh is a damn good PF .. and he is...

D-Leethal
11-05-2012, 06:08 PM
"Melo is a top 3 player and the undisputed King of NY" - BklynKnicks

StarvingKnick22
11-05-2012, 06:09 PM
"Melo is a top 3 player and the undisputed King of NY" - BklynKnicks

Thats unreasonable.

Rivera
11-05-2012, 06:11 PM
The beauty and greatness of Rajon Rondos game

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 06:13 PM
This belongs in the GD forum but:
John Stockton can be considered better than Magic
Walt Frazier isn't a top ten all time PG
Melo can be just as good as Lebron
my house is ****ing haunted.

I can't say I'm shocked that it was you who posted this nonsense, but I can assure you that you're wrong on all four points (including your house being haunted, you gigantic pansy).

douglas
11-05-2012, 06:18 PM
That I know a lot about basketball.

torocan
11-05-2012, 06:19 PM
Here's just a few...

1) The Max is not the SAME contract for all players (rookie max, vet max, long vet max, pre-cba super max).
2) Cap hits can be different for different teams. See Houston/Chicago/NY.
3) Player value is set by what teams are WILLING to pay for similar talent, not a value relative to the maximum allowed by the CBA. It does NOT matter if the "superstar" gets paid $16M if 25/30 teams will pay the "star" $16M as well. They don't work on a sliding scale.
4) The salary minimum has ALOT of impact on player salaries once you move past tier 1 players.
5) It takes ALOT longer to develop on court chemistry than a training camp. And in some cases, it may NEVER develop when you have players who have conflicts in their play styles and favored spots.
6) There are MANY components to defensive play. Blocks/steals are NOT the same as perimeter defense, or help defense, or on ball defense, etc. And there's VERY few players that are good at them all, even among the "best defenders". The terms good/bad defender are thrown around WAY too much.
7) Efficiency counts, ESPECIALLY when comparing similar scoring lines.

And the list goes on...

Chronz
11-05-2012, 06:24 PM
Vince, TMAC or Pierce didn't have the basketball IQ that Kobe had coming into the league. Vince is one of the worst IQ players of all time, TMAC was never really known for extraordinary IQ but still had some,
LMFAO I really wish you would stop speaking out of your anus. I suggest you try that if you dont like me replying to you. Tmac was praised for his IQ since Toronto and it was evident in his prime. How can someone be a better playmaker/passer than Kobe but not have IQ?

Raidaz4Life
11-05-2012, 06:30 PM
That I know a lot about basketball.

LOL


/thread

Chronz
11-05-2012, 06:43 PM
To answer the thread questions, I dont fail, my peers fail to comprehend the following:


The liability of Rajon Rondo and why the Celtics offense has continued to get worse despite his "improvements".

That AI didn't CARRY BUMS, they carried him.

That Tmac was greater than people like to admit

The relationship between usage and efficiency does exists, it just doesn't apply for all players equally.

That MJ wasn't an All-Star during his final days with the Wizards.

That Antoine Walker was overrated

That sports cliches (Defense wins championships, defense is half the game) arent meant to be taken literally or at face value.

akia83
11-05-2012, 06:45 PM
The rings are way overated

Some people said that Jason Kidd has improved in the all-time ranking because of his title with the Mavs...
Or "if Lebron win 6 more rings..." who cares? If the dude keeps on doing what he's doing for the last few years, he'll be easily top 2 ever, even with just 1 ring.

I mean the best player in the world is not supposed to win the title, this is the best team's job.

Garnett is at least as great as Duncan, but just didn't get lucky enough to be in a great organisation.


And, Ibaka is far from being a good defender.

felixng2012
11-05-2012, 07:00 PM
To answer the thread questions, I dont fail, my peers fail to comprehend the following:


The liability of Rajon Rondo and why the Celtics offense has continued to get worse despite his "improvements".

That AI didn't CARRY BUMS, they carried him.

That Tmac was greater than people like to admit

The relationship between usage and efficiency does exists, it just doesn't apply for all players equally.

That MJ wasn't an All-Star during his final days with the Wizards.

That Antoine Walker was overrated

That sports cliches (Defense wins championships, defense is half the game) arent meant to be taken literally or at face value.

Agree with everything here.

Nick O
11-05-2012, 07:08 PM
I had a bit of a hard on for Kenneth faried admittedly .. Alot of people dismissed him.. i knew they would simply because of the weaker college team he played on .. and hes a bit undersized but works hard as hell.. hes gonna be a great player.. alot of people said other wise

Cracka2HI!
11-05-2012, 07:12 PM
That Blake Griffin doesn't suck and gets murdered every game without getting any love from the refs.

Sixerlover
11-05-2012, 07:30 PM
This belongs in the GD forum but:
John Stockton can be considered better than Magic
Walt Frazier isn't a top ten all time PG
Melo can be just as good as Lebron
my house is ****ing haunted.


What I like about you is that you are you're own man, and not a little peer pressured kid like most of these guys here. Melo has improved outstandingly since the Olympics. Last game I thing he had two or three blocks, which he blocked out into the stands, and recovered for a rebound himself. He made Wade look childish and gave LeBron hell. His passing is also great, yes he is still taking alot of unneeded shot, but for every miss he has 2 made shots. I am just saying he can get closer to Lebron's level and apparently I a fool, an idiot, and a homer.

Two different things completely.

StarvingKnick22
11-05-2012, 07:33 PM
Two different things completely.

Its so hard to say it one way without having to say it the other because people will caplock the fawk out of you.

JasonJohnHorn
11-05-2012, 08:54 PM
To answer the thread questions, I dont fail, my peers fail to comprehend the following:


The liability of Rajon Rondo and why the Celtics offense has continued to get worse despite his "improvements". I love Rondo, but you could be right here.

That AI didn't CARRY BUMS, they carried him. I think this is an exageration, but as a polemic arguement I agree.

That Tmac was greater than people like to admit T-Mac, I think, was as good as Kobe when they were both in their respective primes, but I don't think T-Mac was ever on LBJ's level.

The relationship between usage and efficiency does exists, it just doesn't apply for all players equally. I would be inclined to agree. The more often you shoot, the less efficient you are going to be. Stockton is a great example. He wasn't one for forcing shots. He was selective, so his FG% is higher, where as Kobe forces a lot of shots, many of which he doesn't need to, but teams call upon certain players to do that when needed so those players will see their efficiency go down.

That MJ wasn't an All-Star during his final days with the Wizards. I am inclined to agree, but I think there was a case for him being on the All-Star team. But that said, if Jordan's name was Iggy and he put up those same number, he wouldn't have been on the All-Star team his last two seasons.

That Antoine Walker was overrated Who disagree with this? lol

That sports cliches (Defense wins championships, defense is half the game) arent meant to be taken literally or at face value. I agree. No one thing wins championship. The end result that appears on the scorebaord is the summation of a great number of things.

My comments are in bold. I'm convinced of all of the above.

JasonJohnHorn
11-05-2012, 08:58 PM
The rings are way overated

Some people said that Jason Kidd has improved in the all-time ranking because of his title with the Mavs...
Or "if Lebron win 6 more rings..." who cares? If the dude keeps on doing what he's doing for the last few years, he'll be easily top 2 ever, even with just 1 ring.

I mean the best player in the world is not supposed to win the title, this is the best team's job.

Garnett is at least as great as Duncan, but just didn't get lucky enough to be in a great organisation.


And, Ibaka is far from being a good defender.

I agree. So many people rank Kobe higher than he should be because he's been blessed with great rosters. If George Gervin had players like Shaq, Gasol, Bynum and Howard to play with in the front court, he would have been a champion. He cannot help who the players around him are. He can work with them, and help make them better, but at the end of the day, rings are the result of a colabaration between 12 plaeyrs and a coach and no one person shoudl get credit for all those things. Gervin is grossly underrated as a result of the fact that he had no rings, but had Gervin played his prime in place of Kobe on the Lakers, the Lakers would have at least as many championship banners as they do now.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 08:59 PM
I agree. So many people rank Kobe higher than he should be because he's been blessed with great rosters. If George Gervin has players like Shaq, Gasol, Bynum and Howard to play with in the front court, he would have been a champion. He cannot help who the players around him are. He can work with them, and help make them better, but at the end of the day, rings are the result of a colabaration between 12 plaeyrs and a coach and no one person shoudl get credit for all those things. Gervin is grossly underrated as a result of the fact that he had no rings, but had Gervin player his prime in place of Kobe on the Lakers, the Lakers would have at least as many championship banners as they do now.

:clap:

JNA17
11-05-2012, 09:00 PM
I could take any other top 5-10 wing of the era,

yeah no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEhDZN0RFjw

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 09:01 PM
yeah no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEhDZN0RFjw

That's what I think about 3RDASYSTEM's posts! :laugh2:

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 09:04 PM
LMFAO I really wish you would stop speaking out of your anus. I suggest you try that if you dont like me replying to you. Tmac was praised for his IQ since Toronto and it was evident in his prime. How can someone be a better playmaker/passer than Kobe but not have IQ?

Aww, did I hit a nerve talking about the Mac? :)

LAKERMANIA
11-05-2012, 09:07 PM
LMFAO I really wish you would stop speaking out of your anus. I suggest you try that if you dont like me replying to you. Tmac was praised for his IQ since Toronto and it was evident in his prime. How can someone be a better playmaker/passer than Kobe but not have IQ?

By who?

JNA17
11-05-2012, 10:25 PM
By who?

By Chronz and JB duh.

Chronz
11-06-2012, 12:34 AM
Aww, did I hit a nerve talking about the Mac? :)
Well at least your not playing the victim, step up for you I suppose.

Chronz
11-06-2012, 12:40 AM
By who?
Coaches who rave about his passing acumen. George Karl is a huge fan for one. His coach in Toronto (I forget his name at the moment) made an effort to make him a primary decision maker with crunch time passes (making him the primary in bounder on set plays and such). If there was one thing you knew about a young Tmac its that he would defend/roam like mad and that he would make intelligent decisions with his passing/ball handling, I remember the Raps were able to get away without playing with a PG because they had several high IQ swings. For Tmac to show all this at age 19 requires high IQ.

Phenomenonsense
11-06-2012, 12:42 AM
Derrick Rose doesn't know how to run the Pick and Roll.

LAKERMANIA
11-06-2012, 02:13 AM
Coaches who rave about his passing acumen. George Karl is a huge fan for one. His coach in Toronto (I forget his name at the moment) made an effort to make him a primary decision maker with crunch time passes (making him the primary in bounder on set plays and such). If there was one thing you knew about a young Tmac its that he would defend/roam like mad and that he would make intelligent decisions with his passing/ball handling, I remember the Raps were able to get away without playing with a PG because they had several high IQ swings. For Tmac to show all this at age 19 requires high IQ.

So George Karl and his coach in Toronto?

SouthSideRookie
11-06-2012, 02:30 AM
What was it, you had a fact or an idea, an opinion....You tried to explain it here to a person or an entire fan base, or fans in general, but whatever you tried, it didn't work, you couldn't explain.

Or you witnessed someone trying so hard to explain but couldn't ?

For example;

-Some fan bases couldn't understand the Nets' only difference from last year isn't JJ. Brook Lopez didn't play last year, Crash only for 13 games or what? A lot of solid role players. A lot of people tried to explain it but whenever the topic comes up, some people come up and the first thing they is; "Their only difference from last year is JJ, how are they going to win 45-50 games this year"...

-Omer Asik's contract is going to affect Houston's cap 8-8-8 not 5-5-15 just because the Bulls didn't match that contract.

- LBJ's stats are probably more impressive than big O's tripple double season if you adjust it to pace. Even LBJ himself isn't aware of that i think, based on his comments.

What are yours ?
and sadly a ton of people still don't get it.


For starters, most NBA forum posters have no concept of advanced statistics, which is why so many have biased, incorrect opinions like Kobe being better than Lebron or Tyreke Evans being a promising young player.

I constantly try to explain to people that Kevin Martin was awful in Houston last season despite what his numbers say and that the Rockets easily won that Harden deal by trading him, when they probably would have struggled to get a late first round pick for him a year ago.

People ripped Daryl Morey like crazy prior to the Harden trade, but they don't understand the guy's logic or his incredible eye for talent in the draft and in value trades. The Morey hate threads were just infuriating.

The Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain argument. I get that Wilt posted better numbers. No one is debating that. But Russell's teams dominated Wilt's teams and Russell didn't always have superior talent on his side. Anyone who puts Wilt in their all-time top 10 HAS to put Russell in their top 10.

Market value. Everyone destroys GMs for overpaying for contracts and claims the CBA agreement was a joke, but nobody looks around at what players of similar talent are getting. Look at what Jeremy Lin and Omer Asik are producing and what they made and then look at what players of similar talent and production are making. That's how you determine fair market value.

Kevin Martin would have likely been just a throw-in in any other deal to match salaries. For the rest of the bolded :clap:

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-06-2012, 02:32 AM
and sadly a ton of people still don't get it.



Kevin Martin would have likely been just a throw-in in any other deal to match salaries. For the rest of the bolded :clap:

OMG your sig! :laugh:

:clap:

Chronz
11-06-2012, 04:49 AM
So George Karl and his coach in Toronto?

By JVG, scouts, articles that report these claims. I mean the mere fact that I can cite several credible sources and statistics is in itself more evidence than anything else being presented. I mentioned those 2 because of his youth in Toronto and Karl because he was a big T-Mac fan back in the day, he was practically trying to mold Melo into that kind of player, he just didn't fit the profile.

Alayla
11-06-2012, 07:52 AM
You cant measure heart and leadership with advanced stats. Re: kobe, kidd, iverson.

Iverson didnt carry a bunch of scrubs into the finals. Those "scrubs" were chosen for his benefit. It was their defense that got them there. They were the ultimate role players.

When gms sign jkidd, they sign him not for his stats but for his leadership and bbiq.

Adjusting pace for inter generation comparison is a huge assumption.

This one is hard to really prove
are you really trying to say they wouldnt have been a better team with a legit 2nd scoring option

basketfan4life
11-06-2012, 08:14 AM
Coaches who rave about his passing acumen. George Karl is a huge fan for one. His coach in Toronto (I forget his name at the moment) made an effort to make him a primary decision maker with crunch time passes (making him the primary in bounder on set plays and such). If there was one thing you knew about a young Tmac its that he would defend/roam like mad and that he would make intelligent decisions with his passing/ball handling, I remember the Raps were able to get away without playing with a PG because they had several high IQ swings. For Tmac to show all this at age 19 requires high IQ.

Your arguments are generally more backed up than this, all i get from the paragraph above is he was the primary inbound passer of that team.


To answer the thread questions, I dont fail, my peers fail to comprehend the following:


The liability of Rajon Rondo and why the Celtics offense has continued to get worse despite his "improvements".

That AI didn't CARRY BUMS, they carried him.

That Tmac was greater than people like to admit

The relationship between usage and efficiency does exists, it just doesn't apply for all players equally.

That MJ wasn't an All-Star during his final days with the Wizards.

That Antoine Walker was overrated

That sports cliches (Defense wins championships, defense is half the game) arent meant to be taken literally or at face value.

Do you have a God complex or what ?

Bramaca
11-06-2012, 09:58 AM
To answer the thread questions, I dont fail, my peers fail to comprehend the following:


The liability of Rajon Rondo and why the Celtics offense has continued to get worse despite his "improvements".

That AI didn't CARRY BUMS, they carried him.

That Tmac was greater than people like to admit

The relationship between usage and efficiency does exists, it just doesn't apply for all players equally.

That MJ wasn't an All-Star during his final days with the Wizards.

That Antoine Walker was overrated

That sports cliches (Defense wins championships, defense is half the game) arent meant to be taken literally or at face value.

I agree with this. I've had troubles getting people to get that high assist (8+apg) pg's can actually be a detriment to their teams developement and potential.

Chronz
11-06-2012, 11:16 AM
Your arguments are generally more backed up than this, all i get from the paragraph above is he was the primary inbound passer of that team.
I only put in as much effort as required to destroy an opinion, now ask yourself why would a coach make an effort to make a 19 year old the only guy whos allowed to pass on inbound plays? How could a middling IQ player be one of the best at his position in terms of passing efficiency? And VC isnt on that level but even he is an underrated player from an IQ perspective. Ive seen coaches like Frank say hes one of the few players who can make the A-C pass aka the skip pass. Thats pretty hard to do unless you know where the defense is at all times, requires some sort of spatial awareness.



Do you have a God complex or what ?
Your English needs work friend, if I had a god complex then I wouldn't refer to you guys as my peers. Its all in the language

basketfan4life
11-06-2012, 11:26 AM
1-I only put in as much effort as required to destroy an opinion, now ask yourself why would a coach make an effort to make a 19 year old the only guy whos allowed to pass on inbound plays? How could a middling IQ player be one of the best at his position in terms of passing efficiency? And VC isnt on that level but even he is an underrated player from an IQ perspective. Ive seen coaches like Frank say hes one of the few players who can make the A-C pass aka the skip pass. Thats pretty hard to do unless you know where the defense is at all times, requires some sort of spatial awareness.



2-Your English needs work friend, if I had a god complex then I wouldn't refer to you guys as my peers. Its all in the language

1-Now you backed that up. This easily.

2-You know which part of your sentence i was referring to, who says "i don't fail people don't understand" ?

Yeah i scored 105 out of 120 at TOEFL Ibt test, as a second language, it's more than enough to me. If you can score that with your main language even you are fine. I may not know some words you guys use, so what ?

Chronz
11-06-2012, 11:50 AM
1-Now you backed that up. This easily.

2-You know which part of your sentence i was referring to, who says "i don't fail people don't understand" ?

Yeah i scored 105 out of 120 at TOEFL Ibt test, as a second language, it's more than enough to me. If you can score that with your main language even you are fine. I may not know some words you guys use, so what ?

I dont care bro, Im not making fun of you, Im pretty sure your English is better than my Spanish but your use of this particular word (God complex) needs work. The trick is not ignoring parts of the same sentence to fit your bias, thats called ignoring context.

My PEERS often fail to understand, if that sounds like a god complex to you then you have a poor understanding of that particular word. If I thought myself to be superior to others (which is what a god complex is), I wouldn't have referred to those people as my peers. The word PEER implies "a person of the same age, status, or ability as another specified person."


Those are conflicting words, it simply does not apply here. Find another way to defame my character. If you feel Im making fun of you then just know its only because I feel your question was out of line and insulting.

Lakerfan In NY
11-06-2012, 02:21 PM
-Scottie pippen was robbered of at least two finals MVP
-Micheal Jordan had more help in winning his 6 title than another superstar not name Russell.
-Stat are the worst way to eluvate a players worth to a team
-Kobe bryant wasn't second fiddle in any Laker championship.
-Lebron walks more than any two NBA players
-C. Bosh would be 6'5" it he didn't have a 4" neck. (LOL)
-Jamal Mashburn & Derrick Coleman would have been the best ever if injuries & the bottle hadn't gotten in the way.
-Michael Jordan isnt' the greatest of all time...I AM!!(with the last dragon glow)
-It's impossible for you to make a judgement on different players, that play different position during different era's. Like putting some player from the 60's on a team from the 90's. Each player roles will changes from team to team.

Chronz
11-06-2012, 02:24 PM
-Scottie pippen was robbered of at least two finals MVP
-Micheal Jordan had more help in winning his 6 title than another superstar not name Russell.
-Stat are the worst way to eluvate a players worth to a team
-Kobe bryant wasn't second fiddle in any Laker championship.
-Lebron walks more than any two NBA players
-C. Bosh would be 6'5" it he didn't have a 4" neck. (LOL)
-Jamal Mashburn & Derrick Coleman would have been the best ever if injuries & the bottle hadn't gotten in the way.
-Michael Jordan isnt' the greatest of all time...I AM!!(with the last dragon glow)

Pippen?

Chavacano
11-06-2012, 03:16 PM
Coaches who rave about his passing acumen. George Karl is a huge fan for one. His coach in Toronto (I forget his name at the moment) made an effort to make him a primary decision maker with crunch time passes (making him the primary in bounder on set plays and such). If there was one thing you knew about a young Tmac its that he would defend/roam like mad and that he would make intelligent decisions with his passing/ball handling, I remember the Raps were able to get away without playing with a PG because they had several high IQ swings. For Tmac to show all this at age 19 requires high IQ.


By JVG, scouts, articles that report these claims. I mean the mere fact that I can cite several credible sources and statistics is in itself more evidence than anything else being presented. I mentioned those 2 because of his youth in Toronto and Karl because he was a big T-Mac fan back in the day, he was practically trying to mold Melo into that kind of player, he just didn't fit the profile.

^^ Coaches, players and other people in the NBA used to say for a couple (or even a lengthy period) of years that Kobe's the best player but forumers here in PSD didn't take it as an evidence. I'm just saying. :shrug:

Chavacano
11-06-2012, 03:44 PM
Rings matter in ranking all-time greats. Basketball is a team sport but it's also a sport where a single player's overall value and impact determine whether you win it all or not.

Chronz
11-06-2012, 04:16 PM
^^ Coaches, players and other people in the NBA used to say for a couple (or even a lengthy period) of years that Kobe's the best player but forumers here in PSD didn't take it as an evidence. I'm just saying. :shrug:
I dont care for that, whether or not you choose to agree with their opinion is one thing, but the post I took offense to was one in which the OP claims that Tmac wasn't known for it and that he didn't display any. I see no evidence to support his opinion. Now if he presents facts, stats, or any sort of evidence to the table then we can start discrediting certain points. But all Ive seen from him is pure conjecture.

Skizzik
11-06-2012, 04:19 PM
Two things:

The Mavs FO isn't dumb for disassembling it's championship roster. The Heat were minutes away from a 2-0 lead, and we won the Finals while LeBron didn't show up. It's highly unlikely we waltz through the playoffs like that twice, especially with everyone a year older. Our roster needed a change.

That Cuban is a great owner and great for fans. Too many fans judge Cuban as an enemy. If you were a Mavs fan and went to games...you'd see all the great things he's done. Our insane number of sellouts during Cuban's time is because he treats fans well, has tickets for everyone's price range and because he turned the worst franchise in sports in to a meaningful one.

Lakerfan In NY
11-06-2012, 05:07 PM
pippen?

oh yea!!! Robbed!!!!

Chronz
11-06-2012, 05:11 PM
oh yea!!! Robbed!!!!

when?

Lakerfan In NY
11-06-2012, 06:35 PM
when?

96-97 & a agrument could have be made of 97-98.

Jordan just had great final moments. Plus he's Jordan.

Cal827
11-06-2012, 06:48 PM
-Scottie pippen was robbered of at least two finals MVP
-Micheal Jordan had more help in winning his 6 title than another superstar not name Russell.
-Stat are the worst way to eluvate a players worth to a team
-Kobe bryant wasn't second fiddle in any Laker championship.
-Lebron walks more than any two NBA players
-C. Bosh would be 6'5" it he didn't have a 4" neck. (LOL)
-Jamal Mashburn & Derrick Coleman would have been the best ever if injuries & the bottle hadn't gotten in the way.
-Michael Jordan isnt' the greatest of all time...I AM!!(with the last dragon glow)
-It's impossible for you to make a judgement on different players, that play different position during different era's. Like putting some player from the 60's on a team from the 90's. Each player roles will changes from team to team.

Good god, do not let JordansBulls see that statement lol

dodie53
11-06-2012, 06:49 PM
robbed? no.

Chavacano
11-06-2012, 07:30 PM
I dont care for that, whether or not you choose to agree with their opinion is one thing, but the post I took offense to was one in which the OP claims that Tmac wasn't known for it and that he didn't display any. I see no evidence to support his opinion. Now if he presents facts, stats, or any sort of evidence to the table then we can start discrediting certain points. But all Ive seen from him is pure conjecture.

^^ You just took a step back there but all's good. ;)

You also bit the bait. Chill! And lastly, it was KB-Pau (:punish:) who commented on Tmac's IQ, not the OP.

Basketball IQ's hard to quantify unless an exam's given to a player. llullz

Money_23
11-06-2012, 07:38 PM
To answer the thread questions, I dont fail, my peers fail to comprehend the following:


The liability of Rajon Rondo and why the Celtics offense has continued to get worse despite his "improvements".

That AI didn't CARRY BUMS, they carried him.

That Tmac was greater than people like to admit

The relationship between usage and efficiency does exists, it just doesn't apply for all players equally.

That MJ wasn't an All-Star during his final days with the Wizards.

That Antoine Walker was overrated

That sports cliches (Defense wins championships, defense is half the game) arent meant to be taken literally or at face value.


I want to know the reasons why you say this.

Money_23
11-06-2012, 07:43 PM
96-97 & a agrument could have be made of 97-98.

Jordan just had great final moments. Plus he's Jordan.

no... Pippen had no case to win those FMVPs.

Lakerfan In NY
11-06-2012, 08:14 PM
no... Pippen had no case to win those FMVPs.

I dont know..You take away the flu game & pippen was beasting..plus Jordan himself said the same thing. Didnt he give him the MVP car or something but kept the trophy.

JasonJohnHorn
11-06-2012, 09:05 PM
-Scottie pippen was robbered of at least two finals MVP I would say Rodman was.
-Micheal Jordan had more help in winning his 6 title than another superstar not name Russell. I generally think that Jordan was overrated, but I still disagree with this. He had Luc Longley as the starting center in a league that feature Ewing, Robinson Hakeem Shaq and Mourning. -
Stat are the worst way to eluvate a players worth to a team Stats arent the only way to evaluate a player's impact, but they do offer a lot of information in the proper context.-
Kobe bryant wasn't second fiddle in any Laker championship. :facepalm: There is no shame in being second fiddle to prime Shaq when you are only 20 or 21 years old
-Lebron walks more than any two NBA players :clap: But so did Jordan.
-C. Bosh would be 6'5" it he didn't have a 4" neck. (LOL) LOL
-Jamal Mashburn & Derrick Coleman would have been the best ever if injuries I agree with this. Coleman, I think, it was more about his work ethic, but Mashburn was the real deal. Neither did all they could have with the talent they had.

-Michael Jordan isnt' the greatest of all time...I AM!!(with the last dragon glow) I agree with the first part, but unless your name is Hakeem, Wilt, Russell Kareem of The Big O, I don't think you have much of a case for the second part ;-) -
It's impossible for you to make a judgement on different players, that play different position during different era's. Like putting some player from the 60's on a team from the 90's. Each player roles will changes from team to team. It could be argued so.

:)

JasonJohnHorn
11-06-2012, 09:09 PM
Ok... let me say this. Chronz and I do not see eye to eye on McGrady. I always thought he was immature and selfish and impatient, and I think he missed out on a lot of opprotunities as a result (TO would have a title by now if he'd stayed there and he'd had gotten to play with Howard if he'd stayed in Orlando). And Chronz and I once got into an epic debate as to who was better; McGrady or Melo. I was on Melo's side, though his performance as a Knick last season is making me question my judgement.

That said, even I, who do not like T-Mac as a player, must admit that he was one of the most talented players at his position in his prime, perhaps ever, and that McGrady had an amazing basketball IQ. He was a bit of a ball hog, but he had a very high basketball IQ.

To argue otherwise is futile.

Chronz
11-07-2012, 12:10 AM
I want to know the reasons why you say this.

Because the best quality about those Sixers team (Defense) had little do with AI. AI was obviously the teams best player but his support is underrated because nobody gives defenders any credit.

KnicksorBust
11-07-2012, 12:26 AM
Because the best quality about those Sixers team (Defense) had little do with AI. AI was obviously the teams best player but his support is underrated because nobody gives defenders any credit.

But he was unique in his ability to handle that scoring load on a nightly basis while still producing assists for teammates.

mngopher35
11-07-2012, 01:14 AM
Because the best quality about those Sixers team (Defense) had little do with AI. AI was obviously the teams best player but his support is underrated because nobody gives defenders any credit.

The way I read it at first I disagreed kinda, but this I can agree with.

mngopher35
11-07-2012, 01:20 AM
But he was unique in his ability to handle that scoring load on a nightly basis while still producing assists for teammates.

This is for sure true, but I think the point is that he wasn't playing with a horrible cast. The cast around him was great for his talents. He wasn't the most efficient scorer, but he really could score in bunches and take on the entire offensive load for a team. The 76ers surrounded him with a defensive team that could limit the other teams efficiency and then had AI carry the offensive load.

Chronz
11-07-2012, 01:36 AM
But he was unique in his ability to handle that scoring load on a nightly basis while still producing assists for teammates.
It was an impressive run, I just wish people would stop acting as if he took a hapless squad above superior talent when in reality he had the best supporting crew of any other star during that period.

Chronz
11-07-2012, 01:41 AM
Ok... let me say this. Chronz and I do not see eye to eye on McGrady. I always thought he was immature and selfish and impatient, and I think he missed out on a lot of opprotunities as a result (TO would have a title by now if he'd stayed there and he'd had gotten to play with Howard if he'd stayed in Orlando).
He left Toronto to play with GRANT HILL and go home. You cant blame a guy for leaving to play alongside a superior talent. Its not Tmac's fault that Hill never recovered.

And by the time Dwight becomes a player superior to Yao, Tmac is no longer a star. The reason Tmac left Orlando was because he knew he was short on time.

basketfan4life
11-07-2012, 03:23 AM
I dont care for that, whether or not you choose to agree with their opinion is one thing, but the post I took offense to was one in which the OP claims that Tmac wasn't known for it and that he didn't display any. I see no evidence to support his opinion. Now if he presents facts, stats, or any sort of evidence to the table then we can start discrediting certain points. But all Ive seen from him is pure conjecture.

Where the hell did i say any of that? That was another person, i find Tmac's basketball IQ and passing ability very high. I just think that your argument about this was weak, i mean weaker compared to how you defend your opinions, there was even a compliment there. What kind of an insult is this?


I dont care bro, Im not making fun of you, Im pretty sure your English is better than my Spanish but your use of this particular word (God complex) needs work. The trick is not ignoring parts of the same sentence to fit your bias, thats called ignoring context.

My PEERS often fail to understand, if that sounds like a god complex to you then you have a poor understanding of that particular word. If I thought myself to be superior to others (which is what a god complex is), I wouldn't have referred to those people as my peers. The word PEER implies "a person of the same age, status, or ability as another specified person."


Those are conflicting words, it simply does not apply here. Find another way to defame my character. If you feel Im making fun of you then just know its only because I feel your question was out of line and insulting.

And the sentence "i don't fail my peers fails to comprehend" implies a completely another thing but i'm done with this language debate. You think god complex was a wrong choice, but you know what i meant.

MetroMan
11-07-2012, 03:38 AM
Knicks won't win

Chronz
11-07-2012, 05:09 AM
Where the hell did i say any of that? That was another person, i find Tmac's basketball IQ and passing ability very high. I just think that your argument about this was weak, i mean weaker compared to how you defend your opinions, there was even a compliment there. What kind of an insult is this?



And the sentence "i don't fail my peers fails to comprehend" implies a completely another thing but i'm done with this language debate. You think god complex was a wrong choice, but you know what i meant.
By OP I meant the guy I was quoting, not you.

MR.TRIPDUB
11-07-2012, 10:05 AM
This one is hard to really prove
are you really trying to say they wouldnt have been a better team with a legit 2nd scoring option

I dont know how you got this conclusion out of my post. What i basically said was AIs teamates were not scrubs. They were very good role players. And i'm pretty sure iverson has played with a legitimate 2nd scoring option but were did it take him.
It was their defense that got them there, and those "scrubs" provided that immensely.

I think wade instead of iverson could won the title.

Chronz
11-14-2012, 02:17 PM
Just remembered one that seems relevant now that Pringles is in LA. Contrary to popular belief Shaq did NOT slow down the Suns attack. It wasn't until Porter became the coach that the Suns slowed down, immediately after he was fired, Gentry once again made the Suns a fast paced team with Shaq. In fact during their period with Gentry+Shaq, the Suns had never scored as quickly/efficiently as they did during that brief stretch.