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Slow Head Butt
11-04-2012, 03:43 PM
There is no way he should be higher than 9 on any all time list, great player and all but the accolades aren't enough to propell him over shaq or Duncan to be honest

5 rings but only 2 finals Mvp? That means that only on 2 runs was he the man. And have you seen the lakers from 00-04's record without shaq (while shaq was injured) versus without kobe (when kobe was injured and shaq was in)

Someone should pull those figgas up, shaq has a better record without kobe during that period than kobe does without shaq

I'm not saying kobe is overated, but it's illogical to say this man is better than Shaq or Duncan while he only has 2 finals Mvp

It's foolish to be a man called Frank

All those stats are cute and all but at the end of the day, finals Mvp is the most important accolade when discussing GOAT players

By my account, Chamberlin shouldn't be in the top 5 or anywhere near there, a man that dominant with only 1 ring considered better than shaq? Please

There has to be a correlation between rings, and stats my ****** on that real

And kobe has a nice resume, but his record on the lakers when shaq was injured vs shaqs record while kobe was injured was the final straw for me

Kobe was a terrific 2nd option and a good first option but was never really 'the man'

And the teams He beat? The Orlando Magic who made it to the finals because my ***** garnet was injured and going 1-1 against the celtics doesn't make him a top 8 player homie

On that real
. What yall think?

Bruno
11-04-2012, 03:45 PM
There is no way he should be higher than 9 on any all time list, great player and all but the accolades aren't enough to propell him over shaq or Duncan to be honest

5 rings but only 2 finals Mvp? That means that only on 2 runs was he the man. And have you seen the lakers from 00-04's record without shaq (while shaq was injured) versus without kobe (when kobe was injured and shaq was in)

Someone should pull those figgas up, shaq has a better record without kobe during that period than kobe does without shaq

I'm not saying kobe is overated, but it's illogical to say this man is better than Shaq or Duncan while he only has 2 finals Mvp

It's foolish to be a man called Frank

All those stats are cute and all but at the end of the day, finals Mvp is the most important accolade when discussing GOAT players

By my account, Chamberlin shouldn't be in the top 5 or anywhere near there, a man that dominant with only 1 ring considered better than shaq? Please

There has to be a correlation between rings, and stats my ****** on that real

And kobe has a nice resume, but his record on the lakers when shaq was injured vs shaqs record while kobe was injured was the final straw for me

Kobe was a terrific 2nd option and a good first option but was never really 'the man'

And the teams He beat? The Orlando Magic who made it to the finals because my ***** garnet was injured and going 1-1 against the celtics doesn't make him a top 8 player homie

On that real
. What yall think?

what?

Swashcuff
11-04-2012, 03:46 PM
Slow Head Butt spitting fyah son

Real recognizing real homie

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2012, 03:47 PM
When I'm ranking players, I look at all around stats. Rebounds, assits. It's not just about how many points they scored and how many rings they got.

There are a lot of players who do more on the court than Kobe.

For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings. Wilt set all the records, Kareem broke all the records, and they all say that Oscar Robertson was the best they ever player against or with. So those guys are at the top for me. Then you got Magic and Bird and Jordan. Magic and Bird brought basketball to the world and Jordan exploded what they did. They were all better play makers and better rebounders than Kobe and all shot a higher FG%.

Then we have the centers. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq all got more done on the floor than Kobe did.

Then we have the power forwards. I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week.

Then we have Elgin Baylor... I mean, the guy was amazing.

Then I gotta slip Stockton in there, though I know everybody is going to moan and groan about that.

And, though he's still very young and has yet to finish building his legacy, it is clear to me that LBJ is better than Kobe.

I would rank all of those players ahead of Kobe. Kobe has been blessed to play with very talented players. Shaq and co. Bynum and Gasol. Now Howard and Gasol and Nash. His rings are a team accomplishment and shouldn't rank him higher than guys like Barkley and Malone just because he was in a better situation than they were. Bottom line, if Jordan played with the same rosters Kobe did, he would have come away with about 10 rings. And that is the truth. If Magic has played with those rosters, he also would have come away with more than five rings. If Malone or Barkley got to play alongside Shaq, or Bynum, or Gasol or Howard, in their prime, they would have dominated the league.

Kobe is awesome, but he's not even in my top ten.

Slow Head Butt
11-04-2012, 03:47 PM
Slow Head Butt spitting fyah son

Real recognizing real homie

My ***** swagcuff know i be representing for my hood ****** on D block

We running **** this year homie, no doubt

Shout out to the streets!!

theheatles
11-04-2012, 03:48 PM
I agree Kobe is 9 all time but this guy is soo obv a dupe

Slow Head Butt
11-04-2012, 03:48 PM
There is no way he should be higher than 9 on any all time list, great player and all but the accolades aren't enough to propell him over shaq or Duncan to be honest

5 rings but only 2 finals Mvp? That means that only on 2 runs was he the man. And have you seen the lakers from 00-04's record without shaq (while shaq was injured) versus without kobe (when kobe was injured and shaq was in)

Someone should pull those figgas up, shaq has a better record without kobe during that period than kobe does without shaq

I'm not saying kobe is overated, but it's illogical to say this man is better than Shaq or Duncan while he only has 2 finals Mvp

It's foolish to be a man called Frank

All those stats are cute and all but at the end of the day, finals Mvp is the most important accolade when discussing GOAT players

By my account, Chamberlin shouldn't be in the top 5 or anywhere near there, a man that dominant with only 1 ring considered better than shaq? Please

There has to be a correlation between rings, and stats my ****** on that real

And kobe has a nice resume, but his record on the lakers when shaq was injured vs shaqs record while kobe was injured was the final straw for me

Kobe was a terrific 2nd option and a good first option but was never really 'the man'

And the teams He beat? The Orlando Magic who made it to the finals because my ***** garnet was injured and going 1-1 against the celtics doesn't make him a top 8 player homie

On that real
. What yall think?

what?

You ain't gotta violate a real *****, im just saying as the man, he didn't really so the damage that Shaq and Duncan did

He did most of his damage as the 2nd guy, and barely did anything as a 1st option

Hellcrooner
11-04-2012, 04:02 PM
Dude, im not kobes biggest fan ( understatement of the year), but your post is just pure hate/trolling.

True i woudl take (cronological order) Big O, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Duncan over him making him 8th all time right now but thats it, and i dont see why he cant surpass O, Wilt, Russell to be honest.

At WORST you can Debate Hondo, Hakeem and Shaq over him too.....

Slow Head Butt
11-04-2012, 04:05 PM
Dude, im not kobes biggest fan ( understatement of the year), but your post is just pure hate/trolling.

True i woudl take (cronological order) Big O, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Duncan over him making him 8th all time right now but thats it, and i dont see why he cant surpass O, Wilt, Russell to be honest.

How hating lil homie? Being anywhere near top 10 is a great accomplishment for any real ***** out there ballin

I think for him to surpass anyone outside of Wilt, he would need at least 1 or 2 more finals Mvp

Because ² finals Mvp and only 5 rings ain't cutting it for me and my ******

Jenceman
11-04-2012, 04:05 PM
When I'm ranking players, I look at all around stats. Rebounds, assits. It's not just about how many points they scored and how many rings they got.

There are a lot of players who do more on the court than Kobe.

For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings. Wilt set all the records, Kareem broke all the records, and they all say that Oscar Robertson was the best they ever player against or with. So those guys are at the top for me. Then you got Magic and Bird and Jordan. Magic and Bird brought basketball to the world and Jordan exploded what they did. They were all better play makers and better rebounders than Kobe and all shot a higher FG%.

Then we have the centers. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq all got more done on the floor than Kobe did.

Then we have the power forwards. I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week.

Then we have Elgin Baylor... I mean, the guy was amazing.

Then I gotta slip Stockton in there, though I know everybody is going to moan and groan about that.

And, though he's still very young and has yet to finish building his legacy, it is clear to me that LBJ is better than Kobe.

I would rank all of those players ahead of Kobe. Kobe has been blessed to play with very talented players. Shaq and co. Bynum and Gasol. Now Howard and Gasol and Nash. His rings are a team accomplishment and shouldn't rank him higher than guys like Barkley and Malone just because he was in a better situation than they were. Bottom line, if Jordan played with the same rosters Kobe did, he would have come away with about 10 rings. And that is the truth. If Magic has played with those rosters, he also would have come away with more than five rings. If Malone or Barkley got to play alongside Shaq, or Bynum, or Gasol or Howard, in their prime, they would have dominated the league.

Kobe is awesome, but he's not even in my top ten.

Holy balls dude, really?

StarvingKnick22
11-04-2012, 04:09 PM
I need to see some legit top tens, first.

Slow Head Butt
11-04-2012, 04:09 PM
When I'm ranking players, I look at all around stats. Rebounds, assits. It's not just about how many points they scored and how many rings they got.

There are a lot of players who do more on the court than Kobe.

For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings. Wilt set all the records, Kareem broke all the records, and they all say that Oscar Robertson was the best they ever player against or with. So those guys are at the top for me. Then you got Magic and Bird and Jordan. Magic and Bird brought basketball to the world and Jordan exploded what they did. They were all better play makers and better rebounders than Kobe and all shot a higher FG%.

Then we have the centers. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq all got more done on the floor than Kobe did.

Then we have the power forwards. I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week.

Then we have Elgin Baylor... I mean, the guy was amazing.

Then I gotta slip Stockton in there, though I know everybody is going to moan and groan about that.

And, though he's still very young and has yet to finish building his legacy, it is clear to me that LBJ is better than Kobe.

I would rank all of those players ahead of Kobe. Kobe has been blessed to play with very talented players. Shaq and co. Bynum and Gasol. Now Howard and Gasol and Nash. His rings are a team accomplishment and shouldn't rank him higher than guys like Barkley and Malone just because he was in a better situation than they were. Bottom line, if Jordan played with the same rosters Kobe did, he would have come away with about 10 rings. And that is the truth. If Magic has played with those rosters, he also would have come away with more than five rings. If Malone or Barkley got to play alongside Shaq, or Bynum, or Gasol or Howard, in their prime, they would have dominated the league.

Kobe is awesome, but he's not even in my top ten.

You on here spitting that bull if you think garnet with his 1 ring and 0 finals Mvp is better than kobe

Please, you a fake

knicks=love
11-04-2012, 04:11 PM
When I'm ranking players, I look at all around stats. Rebounds, assits. It's not just about how many points they scored and how many rings they got.

There are a lot of players who do more on the court than Kobe.

For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings. Wilt set all the records, Kareem broke all the records, and they all say that Oscar Robertson was the best they ever player against or with. So those guys are at the top for me. Then you got Magic and Bird and Jordan. Magic and Bird brought basketball to the world and Jordan exploded what they did. They were all better play makers and better rebounders than Kobe and all shot a higher FG%.

Then we have the centers. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq all got more done on the floor than Kobe did.

Then we have the power forwards. I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week.

Then we have Elgin Baylor... I mean, the guy was amazing.

Then I gotta slip Stockton in there, though I know everybody is going to moan and groan about that.

And, though he's still very young and has yet to finish building his legacy, it is clear to me that LBJ is better than Kobe.

I would rank all of those players ahead of Kobe. Kobe has been blessed to play with very talented players. Shaq and co. Bynum and Gasol. Now Howard and Gasol and Nash. His rings are a team accomplishment and shouldn't rank him higher than guys like Barkley and Malone just because he was in a better situation than they were. Bottom line, if Jordan played with the same rosters Kobe did, he would have come away with about 10 rings. And that is the truth. If Magic has played with those rosters, he also would have come away with more than five rings. If Malone or Barkley got to play alongside Shaq, or Bynum, or Gasol or Howard, in their prime, they would have dominated the league.

Kobe is awesome, but he's not even in my top ten.

what?

"For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings." - but you said it's not about how many rings they won..

"I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week." - you've got to be kidding me. you'd even have stockton ahead of kobe? that's a sick joke.

PLEASE share your top 15 players of all time.

Slow Head Butt
11-04-2012, 04:11 PM
No order, Jordan, magic, Bird, Russell, shaq, Duncan,

The you throw in kobe, Hakeem and Wilt, aka the guys with little to no finals Mvp

StarvingKnick22
11-04-2012, 04:12 PM
Are you comparing Centers to a SG, JJH????

RLundi
11-04-2012, 04:13 PM
Why are you a ghetto hood G in the other thread but in this thread, your 'streetness' seems much more tempered?

whitemamba33
11-04-2012, 04:13 PM
PSD:

Where 28 ppg, 6 rebounds and 4 assists is a great season, unless we are talking about Kobe.

b@llhog24
11-04-2012, 04:13 PM
I wouldn't but it's not illogical.

b@llhog24
11-04-2012, 04:14 PM
Dude, im not kobes biggest fan ( understatement of the year), but your post is just pure hate/trolling.

True i woudl take (cronological order) Big O, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Duncan over him making him 8th all time right now but thats it, and i dont see why he cant surpass O, Wilt, Russell to be honest.

At WORST you can Debate Hondo, Hakeem and Shaq over him too.....

Hondo. :laugh:

knicks=love
11-04-2012, 04:16 PM
my top 15:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Bill Russell
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robertson
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Jerry West
13. David Robinson
14. Moses Malone
15. Julius Erving

Slow Head Butt
11-04-2012, 04:17 PM
Why are you a ghetto hood G in the other thread but in this thread, your 'streetness' seems much more tempered?

I'm a real ***** but I gotta display my versatility as well, I read a few books here or there, but u try to use my oqyance when possible, aint no **** ***** gunna talk to me like that but on the low, i keep d, i be trying

I go hard

Bruno
11-04-2012, 04:19 PM
You ain't gotta violate a real *****, im just saying as the man, he didn't really so the damage that Shaq and Duncan did

He did most of his damage as the 2nd guy, and barely did anything as a 1st option

what?

b@llhog24
11-04-2012, 04:19 PM
I'm a real ***** but I gotta display my versatility as well, I read a few books here or there, but u try to use my oqyance when possible, aint no **** ***** gunna talk to me like that but on the low, i keep d, i be trying

I go hard

Hard in the mutha****ing paint.

Raps08-09 Champ
11-04-2012, 04:20 PM
Dude, im not kobes biggest fan ( understatement of the year), but your post is just pure hate/trolling.

True i woudl take (cronological order) 1. Big O, 2. Wilt, 3. Russell, 4. Kareem, 5. Magic, 6. Bird, 7. Jordan, 8. Duncan over him making him 8th all time right now but thats it, and i dont see why he cant surpass O, Wilt, Russell to be honest.

At WORST you can Debate Hondo, Hakeem and Shaq over him too.....

Looks like someone can't count.

Raps08-09 Champ
11-04-2012, 04:21 PM
my top 15:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Bill Russell
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robertson
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Jerry West
13. David Robinson
14. Moses Malone
15. Julius Erving

Lebron is top 10 brah.

alexander_37
11-04-2012, 04:21 PM
I would have Kobe 9th at the highest yes.

StarvingKnick22
11-04-2012, 04:22 PM
my top 15:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Bill Russell
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robertson
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Jerry West
13. David Robinson
14. Moses Malone
15. Julius Erving

Kareem should be above Magic.

knicks=love
11-04-2012, 04:22 PM
Lebron is top 10 brah.

not yet. he will be eventually, but not to me.

Chronz
11-04-2012, 04:23 PM
Anyone dumb enough to think Wilt only has 1 ring doesn't have a say on who ranks where

AIRMAR72
11-04-2012, 04:23 PM
the answer is NO kobe is top 15 to 20

Quinnsanity
11-04-2012, 04:24 PM
You know what everyone seems to ignore about Kobe? He was 21, 22 and 23 during those first three title teams. Shaq was 28, 29 and 30. No **** Kobe wasn't the man, Shaq was in his prime. Very unfair standard.

Quinnsanity
11-04-2012, 04:25 PM
Oh, and seriously people these Kobe bait threads are getting really annoying.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-04-2012, 04:27 PM
My ***** swagcuff know i be representing for my hood ****** on D block

We running **** this year homie, no doubt

Shout out to the streets!!

This is the dupe of Cfrey. No question.

knicks=love
11-04-2012, 04:28 PM
Kareem should be above Magic.

not on my list. magic guarded 4 positions and was an offensive force that led his team to multiple finals. i'm content with having magic at #2.

how about you create a list if you think mine is wrong.

oh wait, i'm about to get a VM being yelled at because i "answered" or "quoted" you. :facepalm:

StarvingKnick22
11-04-2012, 04:29 PM
not on my list. magic guarded 4 positions and was an offensive force that led his team to multiple finals. i'm content with having magic at #2.

how about you create a list if you think mine is wrong.

oh wait, i'm about to get a VM being yelled at because i "answered" or "quoted" you. :facepalm:

Im sorry, it just needed to be pointed out. I never said your overall list was bad.

knicks=love
11-04-2012, 04:33 PM
Im sorry, it just needed to be pointed out. I never said your overall list was bad.

why point it out when i won't agree with it?

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2012, 04:33 PM
You on here spitting that bull if you think garnet with his 1 ring and 0 finals Mvp is better than kobe

Please, you a fake

Garnett is better. If there was a draft right now, and Kobe and Garnett were the top two talents in the draft, I promise you that 90% of GMs would draft Garnett ahead of Kobe.


Garnett, first and foremost, is a better defender than Kobe. That means, for 50% of the game, Garnett is clearly the better player. As for the other half of the game, though Garnett doesn't have the range Kobe does, he is the better mid-range shooter, his FG% testifies to that. I'd rather have Garnett scoring 20 points at 50% than Kobe scoring 25 at 45%. As for the passing game, Garnett is at 4.0 assist per game on his career, which, considering he doesn't bring the ball up the way Kobe does, it pretty impressive. Kobe, on his career is at 4.7 a game, but also has more turnovers per than Garnett. Garnett has the betters assist-to-turnover ratio of the two.

Yes. I think Garnett, with his DPOY and regular season MVP is better than Kobe. And had Garnett been drafted with the Lakers instead of Kobe, I promise you, LA would have won 5 straight instead of 3. And had Garnett had Gasol and Bynum as teammates, he wouldn't have dropped the ball in 08 the way Kobe did.

Raps08-09 Champ
11-04-2012, 04:35 PM
not yet. he will be eventually, but not to me.

He's better than the guys you ranked from 12-15.

knicks=love
11-04-2012, 04:35 PM
Garnett is better. If there was a draft right now, and Kobe and Garnett were the top two talents in the draft, I promise you that 90% of GMs would draft Garnett ahead of Kobe.


Garnett, first and foremost, is a better defender than Kobe. That means, for 50% of the game, Garnett is clearly the better player. As for the other half of the game, though Garnett doesn't have the range Kobe does, he is the better mid-range shooter, his FG% testifies to that. I'd rather have Garnett scoring 20 points at 50% than Kobe scoring 25 at 45%. As for the passing game, Garnett is at 4.0 assist per game on his career, which, considering he doesn't bring the ball up the way Kobe does, it pretty impressive. Kobe, on his career is at 4.7 a game, but also has more turnovers per than Garnett. Garnett has the betters assist-to-turnover ratio of the two.

Yes. I think Garnett, with his DPOY and regular season MVP is better than Kobe. And had Garnett been drafted with the Lakers instead of Kobe, I promise you, LA would have won 5 straight instead of 3. And had Garnett had Gasol and Bynum as teammates, he wouldn't have dropped the ball in 08 the way Kobe did.

make a poll. i'll bet you anything in the world that garnett wouldn't get more votes than kobe. please make it, you're so wrong on so many levels.

knicks=love
11-04-2012, 04:35 PM
He's better than the guys you ranked from 12-15.

kthanksbye

Raps08-09 Champ
11-04-2012, 04:36 PM
You know what everyone seems to ignore about Kobe? He was 21, 22 and 23 during those first three title teams. Shaq was 28, 29 and 30. No **** Kobe wasn't the man, Shaq was in his prime. Very unfair standard.

It's the same when people hold Lebron being at fault for not winning in 2007. Unfair indeed.

Quinnsanity
11-04-2012, 04:37 PM
Garnett is not better than Kobe. Garnett is in the top 25 area, Kobe's top 5-10.

StarvingKnick22
11-04-2012, 04:38 PM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlin
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaq
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Oscar Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Lebron

MintBerryCrunch
11-04-2012, 04:38 PM
:facepalm: this thread

Andrew32
11-04-2012, 04:39 PM
Kobe in the Top 9-15 for me.

Guys like Magic and Shaq were just way better playoff performers then Kobe was over their best 6-12 years.

Any minor edge in overall longevity he might accrue won't nearly be enough to make up for the vast difference in quality over those 12 seasons.

So yes people who say he belongs over Shaq or Magic etc... are stupidly overrating him.

Just being in the Top 10 All-Time or having an argument to be in the Top 10 is amazing enough though.
If you are a Kobe fan you should not feel bad he did not get higher.

But yeah 9 I think is the highest he should be ranked "right now" but its possible he could eventually be argued 1-3 spots higher depending on how his career ends.

faridk89
11-04-2012, 04:40 PM
here we go again

ThunderousDemon
11-04-2012, 04:43 PM
Really? Another Kobe thread.

There should be a requirement to make threads because this is getting out of hand.

Reyes6
11-04-2012, 04:44 PM
Kobe is top ten... top eight is questionable... top 5 is def pushing it.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Hakeem
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe?

StarvingKnick22
11-04-2012, 04:45 PM
I wonder what his retirement thread is gonna look like.

Slow Head Butt
11-04-2012, 04:49 PM
**** ****** talk that **** but when you nut in their mouth and tell them to recognize the real, they don't have an argument

The vast majority agrees kobe isn't bout that life

And those that do don't have a valid argument and haven't even tried to febuttle and tell us why he deserves to be higher

Real recognize real, and I don't see none of yall ******

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2012, 04:49 PM
what?

"For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings." - but you said it's not about how many rings they won..

"I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week." - you've got to be kidding me. you'd even have stockton ahead of kobe? that's a sick joke.

PLEASE share your top 15 players of all time.

It's not about rings, but if rings is a argument, that certainly puts Kobe below Russell. Russell won 11 rings. I rank him high because of his dominace on the defensive end and on the boards. But hey, he was the greatest winner the league has ever seen.

I do have Stockton ahead of Kobe. I'd rather have Stockton in his prime, handing out 14.5 assists a game with only 3.7 turnovers, and scoring 17 a games on 50% shooting, than have Kobe scoring 30 on 45% shooting and only handing out 5 assists and cuasing 3 turnovers in the process.

Stockton was a more efficient scorer and WAY more efficnet passer. And he was better at guarding the passing lanes than is Kobe.

Stockton did something at the PG position that has never been done. Stockton dominated his position and set records that are untouchable and will remain unbeaten for all of eternity. Kobe has done nothing like that. Eveything Kobe has done, somebody else has done better. And if Stockton was playing in his prime with Shaq and co. on his team, that he would have won more rings than Kobe did.

And yes, I think Balyor was better. I think Karl Malone and Charles Barkley were better all-around players than Kobe. I think if they were paired with Shaq in their respective primes the way Kobe was, that they would have won more than kobe did.

This: "Kobe has two finals MVP awards and 5 rings" does sway me. Kobe has been so blessed as a player with who he has around him, that it is unfair to take his rings into account. Wilt came away from his career with one ring to Russell's 11, but nobody says Russell is better than Wilt?

Kobe is a great player. but he is just a shadow of Jordan.

Stockton was his own man. Nobody can compare Stockton to anybody, because Stockton made his own identity, and at the end of the day, he did things that Kobe could never hope to do. Stockton, as a player, stands on his own, just as Oscar Robertson, and Magic, and Bird and Jordan and Wilt and Russell have. Kobe stands in Jordan's shadow. And always will.

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
the Big O
Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Barkley
K. Malone
Garnett
Ducan
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Baylor
LBJ

These are all players I would put ahead of Kobe. And I believe, in all honestly, that if each of these players, along with Kobe, was entering the draft in the same season, and everybody knew beforehand what kind of players they were going to be, that Kobe wouldn't be picked until each and every one of these players was already taken. I don't believe that most GMs would draft Stockton ahead of Kobe, so I left him off the list. But there, in no particualar order, are 16 players that I think rank ahead of Kobe. Put them in whatever order you want, I don't care. But they all did more on the court han Kobe did.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2012, 04:53 PM
Kobe is 4th. Real talk. :)

ShowtimeNo24
11-04-2012, 04:53 PM
Is it illogical that every third thread in PSD is about where players rank over and over again? Illogical? More like ******** already.

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2012, 04:57 PM
make a poll. i'll bet you anything in the world that garnett wouldn't get more votes than kobe. please make it, you're so wrong on so many levels.

The poll has been made. That said, I didn't say that 90% of PSD voters would pick Garnett over Kobe, I said 90% of GMs would. There are enough Lakers Homers and Bryantnutsacksuckers on this site to skew the poll. But bottom line, it is easier to build a winner around Garnett than it is to build around Kobe. Minny just had the worst front office in the league, which is the only thing that held them back.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-04-2012, 04:58 PM
The poll has been made. That said, I didn't say that 90% of PSD voters would pick Garnett over Kobe, I said 90% of GMs would. There are enough Lakers Homers and Bryantnutsacksuckers on this site to skew the poll. But bottom line, it is easier to build a winner around Garnett than it is to build around Kobe. Minny just had the worst front office in the league, which is the only thing that held them back.

Nice, how about you stop making threads about the guy so you won't attract them little kid?

whitemamba33
11-04-2012, 05:02 PM
Garnett is better. If there was a draft right now, and Kobe and Garnett were the top two talents in the draft, I promise you that 90% of GMs would draft Garnett ahead of Kobe.

Your opinion, far from fact, and really no source to even slightly suggest you are right.


As for the other half of the game, though Garnett doesn't have the range Kobe does, he is the better mid-range shooter, his FG% testifies to that.

This is where your post falls apart. First of all, you've already revealed your extreme bias. Above you said that Kevin Garnett is a better defensive player than Kobe, so he's better 50% of the game. Then you tried your best to spin Kevin Garnett as being a better offensive player than Kobe, just to avoid having to say that Kobe is better the other 50% of the game. Kobe Bryant has more range, as you've said, but also has a better true shooting percentage - which completly debunks everything you've said.


Garnett is at 4.0 assist per game on his career, which, considering he doesn't bring the ball up the way Kobe does, it pretty impressive. Kobe, on his career is at 4.7 a game, but also has more turnovers per than Garnett. Garnett has the betters assist-to-turnover ratio of the two.

Lol. You've already acknowledged that Kobe brings the ball up way more than KG does, so is it really a surprise that his assist-to-turnover ratio isn't as good? Again, you are trying too hard to spin the argument in your favor.

Also keep in mind that while the two players have maintained a similar regular season PER, Garnett's drops lower than Kobe's in the playoffs. So I'm not sure how I feel about your whole "ball dropping" comment.

I would have respect for you if you said KG is better on defense, Kobe is better on offense, but I give the edge to KG for these reasons.... Instead, you tip-toe around the facts just to hide how truly horrible your premise is.

Disgrace to Windsor.

Munkeysuit
11-04-2012, 05:06 PM
1.Jordan
2.Wilt
3.Russel
4.Magic
5.Robertson
6.Bird
7.Kareem
8.Hakeem
9.Shaquille
10.Duncan
11.Kobe
Malone, Irving, Barkley, Isiah, Iverson, Jerry West, Pippen, Lebron, Gervin, Hondo, Moses, Ewing, Baylor, Archibald, Reg Miller, Stockton, Frazier, The Pearl, Willis Reed, Worthy, Nowitzki, McHale, Cowens, Greer, BKing, JoeD, Drexler, Walton, Thurmond, S Jones, The Admiral and maybe some Pistol Pete

I think Kobe is one of the greats obviously, just on talent alone is why he ranked so high up there in my opinion so there is no hate here. But I also think he is below Shaq because if it weren't for Oneal, Kobe would not have 3 of his 5 rings, so when you think about it, Kobe really has only 2 rings he has really gotten for himself as the main guy, so that even places him under Duncan, I am only ranking Shaq higher than Duncan because of his dominating numbers over Timmy.

Kobe2324
11-04-2012, 05:13 PM
Was never the man? I'm sorry but the best player in the last decade was never the man, the guy that will be ranked the 2nd best to ever play the game by the time is done, arguably the best scorer of our generation, the guy that MJ said is the only person to compare to himself...come on you can hate player but you can't hate the game, just ridiculous...

Raps08-09 Champ
11-04-2012, 05:15 PM
You can argue Kobe is as high as top 5. He's definitely top 10 though.

jchase3
11-04-2012, 05:16 PM
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Robertson
8. Shaq
9. Wilt
10. Duncan or Hakeem

StarvingKnick22
11-04-2012, 05:26 PM
It's not about rings, but if rings is a argument, that certainly puts Kobe below Russell. Russell won 11 rings. I rank him high because of his dominace on the defensive end and on the boards. But hey, he was the greatest winner the league has ever seen.

I do have Stockton ahead of Kobe. I'd rather have Stockton in his prime, handing out 14.5 assists a game with only 3.7 turnovers, and scoring 17 a games on 50% shooting, than have Kobe scoring 30 on 45% shooting and only handing out 5 assists and cuasing 3 turnovers in the process.

Stockton was a more efficient scorer and WAY more efficnet passer. And he was better at guarding the passing lanes than is Kobe.

Stockton did something at the PG position that has never been done. Stockton dominated his position and set records that are untouchable and will remain unbeaten for all of eternity. Kobe has done nothing like that. Eveything Kobe has done, somebody else has done better. And if Stockton was playing in his prime with Shaq and co. on his team, that he would have won more rings than Kobe did.

And yes, I think Balyor was better. I think Karl Malone and Charles Barkley were better all-around players than Kobe. I think if they were paired with Shaq in their respective primes the way Kobe was, that they would have won more than kobe did.

This: "Kobe has two finals MVP awards and 5 rings" does sway me. Kobe has been so blessed as a player with who he has around him, that it is unfair to take his rings into account. Wilt came away from his career with one ring to Russell's 11, but nobody says Russell is better than Wilt?

Kobe is a great player. but he is just a shadow of Jordan.

Stockton was his own man. Nobody can compare Stockton to anybody, because Stockton made his own identity, and at the end of the day, he did things that Kobe could never hope to do. Stockton, as a player, stands on his own, just as Oscar Robertson, and Magic, and Bird and Jordan and Wilt and Russell have. Kobe stands in Jordan's shadow. And always will.

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
the Big O
Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Barkley
K. Malone
Garnett
Ducan
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Baylor
LBJ

These are all players I would put ahead of Kobe. And I believe, in all honestly, that if each of these players, along with Kobe, was entering the draft in the same season, and everybody knew beforehand what kind of players they were going to be, that Kobe wouldn't be picked until each and every one of these players was already taken. I don't believe that most GMs would draft Stockton ahead of Kobe, so I left him off the list. But there, in no particualar order, are 16 players that I think rank ahead of Kobe. Put them in whatever order you want, I don't care. But they all did more on the court han Kobe did.

This is in no specific order right?

C-Style
11-04-2012, 05:54 PM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlin
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaq
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Oscar Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Lebron

lol those losers being ahead

C-Style
11-04-2012, 05:55 PM
Kobe is top ten... top eight is questionable... top 5 is def pushing it.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Hakeem
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe?


Seems legit to me

C-Style
11-04-2012, 05:56 PM
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Robertson
8. Shaq
9. Wilt
10. Duncan or Hakeem

:facepalm:

lol, please
11-04-2012, 05:59 PM
There is no way he should be higher than 9 on any all time list, great player and all but the accolades aren't enough to propell him over shaq or Duncan to be honest

5 rings but only 2 finals Mvp? That means that only on 2 runs was he the man. And have you seen the lakers from 00-04's record without shaq (while shaq was injured) versus without kobe (when kobe was injured and shaq was in)

Someone should pull those figgas up, shaq has a better record without kobe during that period than kobe does without shaq

I'm not saying kobe is overated, but it's illogical to say this man is better than Shaq or Duncan while he only has 2 finals Mvp

It's foolish to be a man called Frank

All those stats are cute and all but at the end of the day, finals Mvp is the most important accolade when discussing GOAT players

By my account, Chamberlin shouldn't be in the top 5 or anywhere near there, a man that dominant with only 1 ring considered better than shaq? Please

There has to be a correlation between rings, and stats my ****** on that real

And kobe has a nice resume, but his record on the lakers when shaq was injured vs shaqs record while kobe was injured was the final straw for me

Kobe was a terrific 2nd option and a good first option but was never really 'the man'

And the teams He beat? The Orlando Magic who made it to the finals because my ***** garnet was injured and going 1-1 against the celtics doesn't make him a top 8 player homie

On that real
. What yall think?

Thanks Captain Obvious. No one with a credible list has him much higher anyway.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2012, 06:06 PM
Seems legit to me

How can that be legit when Hakeem is ranked ahead of Bird? :eyebrow:

Andrew32
11-04-2012, 06:10 PM
lol those losers being ahead

While I rank Kobe ahead of those guys I think its silly to call them "losers".

Oscar actually won a Ring and guys like Malone and Stockton were unfortunate that they had the right teams at the wrong time and the wrong teams at the right time.

Oscar I think could be argued over Kobe and irregardless most don't rank him that far behind Kobe.
I'd say the same for Malone although his case feels much weaker.
He is also not ranked that far behind Kobe since he is Top 20.

abe_froman
11-04-2012, 06:21 PM
wait,how is it illogical?

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2012, 06:22 PM
While I rank Kobe ahead of those guys I think its silly to call them "losers".

Oscar actually won a Ring and guys like Malone and Stockton were unfortunate that they had the right teams at the wrong time and the wrong teams at the right time.

Oscar I think could be argued over Kobe and irregardless most don't rank him that far behind Kobe.
I'd say the same for Malone although his case feels much weaker.
He is also not ranked that far behind Kobe since he is Top 20.

i love your use of irregardless!:clap:

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2012, 06:24 PM
This is in no specific order right?

That is corect... no particualr order.

Reyes6
11-04-2012, 06:24 PM
This forum is illogical

Mr_Jones
11-04-2012, 06:28 PM
I have no legs

THE MTL
11-04-2012, 06:31 PM
I think its illogical to have him ranked in the top 5. But you can make a pretty good argument for any place 6-10.

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2012, 06:33 PM
Your opinion, far from fact, and really no source to even slightly suggest you are right.



This is where your post falls apart. First of all, you've already revealed your extreme bias. Above you said that Kevin Garnett is a better defensive player than Kobe, so he's better 50% of the game. Then you tried your best to spin Kevin Garnett as being a better offensive player than Kobe, just to avoid having to say that Kobe is better the other 50% of the game. Kobe Bryant has more range, as you've said, but also has a better true shooting percentage - which completly debunks everything you've said.



Lol. You've already acknowledged that Kobe brings the ball up way more than KG does, so is it really a surprise that his assist-to-turnover ratio isn't as good? Again, you are trying too hard to spin the argument in your favor.

Also keep in mind that while the two players have maintained a similar regular season PER, Garnett's drops lower than Kobe's in the playoffs. So I'm not sure how I feel about your whole "ball dropping" comment.

I would have respect for you if you said KG is better on defense, Kobe is better on offense, but I give the edge to KG for these reasons.... Instead, you tip-toe around the facts just to hide how truly horrible your premise is.

Disgrace to Windsor.

Front court players generally have horrible assist-to-turnover ratios. The fact that Kobe's is worse than Garnett's, and that at the same time he barely gets more assists when he does more ball handling, inidacates that Garnett is better at handling the ball. Stockton handled the ball more than either of them, yet his assist-to-turnover ratio blows both of them out of the water.

Fact: Kobe and Garnett both distribute the ball, and Garnett has a better assist-to-turnover ratio, meaning his passes are more efficient.

Fact: KG has a high FG%.

Is Kobe better than KG on offense? He scores more. And has a slightly higher FT%. But he also shoot more... a lot more... and at a lower FG% than Garnett. I am not inclined to say that somebody is a better offensive player just because they put up more shots. As i said, I would rather have a guy that shoots 50% and scores 20, than a guy who scores 25 and shoots 45%. That said, you do need 3pt shooters on your team and I concede that Kobe is a better 3pt shooter than Garnett, do argue otherwise would be rediculous. Who is better on offense? I don't think the answer is clear. Kobe scores more because he takes more shots. Garnett shoots at a higher percentage and causes fewer turnovers per assist.

My point was that on defence Garnett is clearly the better player, while on offense it is no clear who the better player is.

But, like most people, you seem to be impressed with the higher scoring averages than the higher FG%.

Please note, Kobe did NOT finish first in scoring last year DESPITE the fact he took more shots than anybody. I think that tells you something.

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2012, 06:35 PM
I have no legs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtrYU6vWdiE

Reyes6
11-04-2012, 06:47 PM
I'd rather have Kobe than KG... Unless MJ was on my team. Kobe has proven himself and is much better overall. KG is more passionate, but that passion can also flow into anger and take his team out of the game.

Kobe was the best player of the decade of the new millenium.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2012, 06:51 PM
Just do me a favor and name all the players that have more rings than him, who out of those players, also has have more MVPs than him. I'll help you out, it's a short list.

knicks=love
11-04-2012, 06:59 PM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlin
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaq
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Oscar Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Lebron

the fact that you have karl malone and john stockton ahead of oscar ROBERTSON, kobe, jerry west (the logo of the NBA) and lebron is ridiculous to say the least.

b@llhog24
11-04-2012, 07:15 PM
Seeing as everybody is giving their top 15 list:

1-3 MJ/Wilt/KAJ
4 Shaq
5 Hakeem
6 Duncan
7-8 Bird/Magic
9-10 Barkley/Robinson
11-12 Russel-Kobe
13-15 West/Oscar/Moses

7-15 is debateable to me. Shaq Duncan and Hakeem somewhat less. And Wilt, KAJ and MJ are the debateable GOATS in my eyes, MJ earns the consensus. LeBron realistically is in that 9-13 area but I wanted to keep the list relatively clean.

Supreme LA
11-04-2012, 07:21 PM
Seeing as everybody is giving their top 15 list:

1-3 MJ/Wilt/KAJ
4 Shaq
5 Hakeem
6 Duncan
7-8 Bird/Magic
9-10 Barkley/Robinson
11-12 Russel-Kobe
13-15 West/Oscar/Moses

7-15 is debateable to me. Shaq Duncan and Hakeem somewhat less. And Wilt, KAJ and MJ are the debateable GOATS in my eyes, MJ earns the consensus. LeBron realistically is in that 9-13 are but I wanted to keep the list relatively clean.

We all know you hate Kobe otherwise you wouldn't have him behind Robinson or Barkley.

Kobe is above Bird, Duncan, and Hakeem. Magic is above Duncan and Hakeem as well.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2012, 07:22 PM
Seeing as everybody is giving their top 15 list:

1-3 MJ/Wilt/KAJ
4 Shaq
5 Hakeem
6 Duncan
7-8 Bird/Magic
9-10 Barkley/Robinson
11-12 Russel-Kobe
13-15 West/Oscar/Moses

7-15 is debateable to me. Shaq Duncan and Hakeem somewhat less. And Wilt, KAJ and MJ are the debateable GOATS in my eyes, MJ earns the consensus. LeBron realistically is in that 9-13 area but I wanted to keep the list relatively clean.

How the hell is Barkley 6 spots ahead of Moses Malone? Moses is a 3x MVP and 1x Finals MVP.

Chronz
11-05-2012, 03:11 AM
How the hell is Barkley 6 spots ahead of Moses Malone? Moses is a 3x MVP and 1x Finals MVP.

Accolades give Moses the edge, but its not all that bad of a comparison to me.

Chronz
11-05-2012, 03:21 AM
Ima join in on the rankings
Oh and since its become the trend here, Im using the tier system:

1 MJ
2 KAJ -Wilt - Shaq
5 Duncan - Magic
7 Hakeem - Kobe
9 Bird
10 Moses
11 Russell
12 West
13 LeBron
14 O
15 Charles

b@llhog24
11-05-2012, 03:37 AM
Seeing as everybody is giving their top 15 list:

1-3 MJ/Wilt/KAJ
4 Shaq
5 Hakeem
6 Duncan
7-8 Bird/Magic
9-10 Barkley/Robinson
11-12 Russel-Kobe
13-15 West/Oscar/Moses

7-15 is debateable to me. Shaq Duncan and Hakeem somewhat less. And Wilt, KAJ and MJ are the debateable GOATS in my eyes, MJ earns the consensus. LeBron realistically is in that 9-13 area but I wanted to keep the list relatively clean..


How the hell is Barkley 6 spots ahead of Moses Malone? Moses is a 3x MVP and 1x Finals MVP.

You and the clown below need reading comprehension classes. Accolades removed who is the better player? My rankings aren't exactly career based, it's closer to who would you rather draft as your franchise player. Even still as the list goes on then it starts to get muddy but that's basically the method of my approach.


We all know you hate Kobe otherwise you wouldn't have him behind Robinson or Barkley.

1) WE don't know ****. You can't speak for PSD.
2) Why would I hate someone I never met? You assume my name means that I hate Kobe despite the fact that when I made it, Kobe's number was an afterthought
3) You keep quoting, then I destroy your post but you never reply but whatever man.
4) I think that Barkley and most certainly Drob are better basketball players than Kobe.


Kobe is above Bird, Duncan, and Hakeem. Magic is above Duncan and Hakeem as well.

:laugh:

itscooljazz
11-05-2012, 03:38 AM
When I'm ranking players, I look at all around stats. Rebounds, assits. It's not just about how many points they scored and how many rings they got.

There are a lot of players who do more on the court than Kobe.

For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings. Wilt set all the records, Kareem broke all the records, [and they all say that Oscar Robertson was the best they ever player against or with. So those guys are at the top for me. Then you got Magic and Bird and Jordan. Magic and Bird brought basketball to the world and Jordan exploded what they did. They were all better play makers and better rebounders than Kobe and all shot a higher FG%.

Then we have the centers. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq all got more done on the floor than Kobe did.

Then we have the power forwards. I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week.

Then we have Elgin Baylor... I mean, the guy was amazing.

Then I gotta slip Stockton in there, though I know everybody is going to moan and groan about that.

And, though he's still very young and has yet to finish building his legacy, it is clear to me that LBJ is better than Kobe.

I would rank all of those players ahead of Kobe. Kobe has been blessed to play with very talented players. Shaq and co. Bynum and Gasol. Now Howard and Gasol and Nash. His rings are a team accomplishment and shouldn't rank him higher than guys like Barkley and Malone just because he was in a better situation than they were. Bottom line, if Jordan played with the same rosters Kobe did, he would have come away with about 10 rings. And that is the truth. If Magic has played with those rosters, he also would have come away with more than five rings. If Malone or Barkley got to play alongside Shaq, or Bynum, or Gasol or Howard, in their prime, they would have dominated the league.

Kobe is awesome, but he's not even in my top ten.

all the best players from the last decade or so say kobe is the best..or does that not count?

itscooljazz
11-05-2012, 03:47 AM
Garnett is better. If there was a draft right now, and Kobe and Garnett were the top two talents in the draft, I promise you that 90% of GMs would draft Garnett ahead of Kobe.


Garnett, first and foremost, is a better defender than Kobe. That means, for 50% of the game, Garnett is clearly the better player. As for the other half of the game, though Garnett doesn't have the range Kobe does, he is the better mid-range shooter, his FG% testifies to that. I'd rather have Garnett scoring 20 points at 50% than Kobe scoring 25 at 45%. As for the passing game, Garnett is at 4.0 assist per game on his career, which, considering he doesn't bring the ball up the way Kobe does, it pretty impressive. Kobe, on his career is at 4.7 a game, but also has more turnovers per than Garnett. Garnett has the betters assist-to-turnover ratio of the two.

Yes. I think Garnett, with his DPOY and regular season MVP is better than Kobe. And had Garnett been drafted with the Lakers instead of Kobe, I promise you, LA would have won 5 straight instead of 3. And had Garnett had Gasol and Bynum as teammates, he wouldn't have dropped the ball in 08 the way Kobe did.

Garnett scores a majority of his buckets at the rim so of course his percentage should be higher. Having Garnett on the lakers those years would not equal 5 rings it would most likely equal zero considering he would have no space to operate because Shaq would be in the paint...And are you forgetting how kobe carried the lakers those WCF?

itscooljazz
11-05-2012, 03:55 AM
1. Jordan
2 Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Kobe
7. Robertson
8. Shaq
9. Larry
10. Duncan or Hakeem

vandoc
11-05-2012, 04:33 AM
I find these debates pointless at times. I've been watching basketball for over 30 years, and to rank players from different eras is extremely difficult.

When I started watching basketball, I thought Kareem would go down as the greatest ever because the game came so easy to him. He won the most MVPs (regular season), All-time leading scorer, oldest to ever win Finals MVP, etc etc.

Then, I saw Magic and Bird change the game and involve the entire team.

Jordan came along and made isolation plays popular due to his ability to attack.

Olajuwon, later in his career, made a case for himself because I have never seen such amazing footwork by a big man and he may have been the best 2-way player (offense-defense) of his generation.

Shaq was the most dominating force I have ever seen. I never saw Wilt play so I can't compare the two...but Shaq, in his prime, was the most unstoppable player I have witnessed.

Duncan is a model of consistency and fundamentals.

Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are always going to be in the discussion of greatest PF ever.

Stockton is the all-time assists and steals leader...he was the prototypical PG.

Kobe showed he could win without Shaq and has been one of the most clutch players we've seen in a while.

LeBron will probably be in this discussion soon as he still has lots of basketball to play.

However, at the end of the day, I can't rank them and say one of these guys is for sure better than the others. It is fun to debate, but I think it's been even more fun to just watch them play.

el hidalgo
11-05-2012, 04:51 AM
I would have to agree. He has never even been a consensus #1 player in the league. I just can't rank him that highly. LeBron has had multiple #1 seasons and has had so many seasons greater than Kobe has ever had, I honestly would put him ahead of Kobe already

cg_la00
11-05-2012, 06:00 AM
am i the only one laughing at the name slow head butt? lol i mean not the guy of course but just the idea of a slow head butt cracks me up. if someone got hit by a slow head butt they should just give up on life :laugh2:

thenaj17
11-05-2012, 11:20 AM
When I'm ranking players, I look at all around stats. Rebounds, assits. It's not just about how many points they scored and how many rings they got.

There are a lot of players who do more on the court than Kobe.

For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings. Wilt set all the records, Kareem broke all the records, and they all say that Oscar Robertson was the best they ever player against or with. So those guys are at the top for me. Then you got Magic and Bird and Jordan. Magic and Bird brought basketball to the world and Jordan exploded what they did. They were all better play makers and better rebounders than Kobe and all shot a higher FG%.

Then we have the centers. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq all got more done on the floor than Kobe did.

Then we have the power forwards. I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week.

Then we have Elgin Baylor... I mean, the guy was amazing.

Then I gotta slip Stockton in there, though I know everybody is going to moan and groan about that.

And, though he's still very young and has yet to finish building his legacy, it is clear to me that LBJ is better than Kobe.

I would rank all of those players ahead of Kobe. Kobe has been blessed to play with very talented players. Shaq and co. Bynum and Gasol. Now Howard and Gasol and Nash. His rings are a team accomplishment and shouldn't rank him higher than guys like Barkley and Malone just because he was in a better situation than they were. Bottom line, if Jordan played with the same rosters Kobe did, he would have come away with about 10 rings. And that is the truth. If Magic has played with those rosters, he also would have come away with more than five rings. If Malone or Barkley got to play alongside Shaq, or Bynum, or Gasol or Howard, in their prime, they would have dominated the league.

Kobe is awesome, but he's not even in my top ten.

In the same post you berate Kobe for his rebound totals and then state he has played with dominant bigs (who rebound at a high rate).

If Magic had the same roster as Kobe? He had Kareem Abdul Jabaar, not sure if you heard of him...oh yeh he's also a top 5 player of all time. Oh and he had James Worthy and Byron Scott?? :speechless:

Can't have 1 rule just for Kobe. If you're judging on player help, what did MJ do before Pippen became a star? Who did Larry Bird have on his team? 3 Hof's? Oh yeh...

Bill Russell continues to be the single most overrated player in history. Wilt was by far the better player and always had the best of the matchups. Not really Wilt's fault that Russell had a better team.

I can't even comprehend how you have David Robinson, Garnett, Elgin Baylor ahead of Kobe.

Malone and Barkley has some logic i agree

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 11:53 AM
If Magic had the same roster as Kobe? He had Kareem Abdul Jabaar, not sure if you heard of him...oh yeh he's also a top 5 player of all time. Oh and he had James Worthy and Byron Scott?? :speechless:

Eh... Magic had "Prime Kareem" for like 1-3 years at the most.

After 82 he was still a good player but I'd say its clear he was past his Prime by that point especially in terms of rebounding and defense.

Kobe had Prime Shaq for a good 7 years (arguably 8) and then he had a high level All-Star + a 2nd All-Star for another 2-3 years in his Prime (08-10).

Now he has Nash / Gasol / Dwight / Metta etc...

I don't think anyone in the history of the game comes very close to Kobe in terms of luck with career circumstances and supporting casts.

It is really absurd just how lucky he has been in that respect.

You gotta say Kobe wasn't even the best player on his own team for probably 50% of his career.
How many other All-Time greats in the Top 15-20 can say that?

Lakers have a great franchise and front office.

ewing
11-05-2012, 11:54 AM
A thread about Kobe's legacy? Good idea!

KnicksorBust
11-05-2012, 12:08 PM
Accolades removed who is the better player? My rankings aren't exactly career based, it's closer to who would you rather draft as your franchise player. Even still as the list goes on then it starts to get muddy but that's basically the method of my approach.


I think your rankings are unique in that respect because when comparing all-time lists, I don't see how you can leave the player's accomplishments out of the equation.

Even if I play by your rules, I don't see why you would prefer Barkley to Moses? Moses was a dominating two-way center. Barkley was a dominating offensive PF who was undersized and a liability defensively. Basing it on skill sets and production, the first option is much more appealing. Barkley's only advantages are his one man fastbreak routine and his passing skills. These are hardly things that I would require of my franchise big.

M.Bibby2.0
11-05-2012, 12:13 PM
In no particular order:

MJ
Magic
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Bill Russel
Tim Duncan
Hakeem
Larry Bird

are above Kobe for me, and I hate the Lakers but I still have him 10th. Although LeBron will eventually bump him out, and you could argue a couple other guys (BIG O)

EDIT: before anyone shouts "blasphemy!" just consider what lebron would have done with kobe's supporting casts over the years.

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 12:13 PM
I think your rankings are unique in that respect because when comparing all-time lists, I don't see how you can leave the player's accomplishments out of the equation.

Even if I play by your rules, I don't see why you would prefer Barkley to Moses? Moses was a dominating two-way center. Barkley was a dominating offensive PF who was undersized and a liability defensively. Basing it on skill sets and production, the first option is much more appealing. Barkley's only advantages are his one man fastbreak routine and his passing skills. These are hardly things that I would require of my franchise big.

I think you could argue that Barkley was much better offensively then Moses and an equal or better rebounder.

Moses wasn't exactly known for his defense either.

I am also quite hesitant to agree that Young / Prime Barkley was a defensive liability.
I don't think he was.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 12:20 PM
How can that be legit when Hakeem is ranked ahead of Bird? :eyebrow:

i actually have Hakeem at 10 on my top 10 list buthis list was the bestout of all the ones posted

my list

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem

West
Oscar
Dr J
Mikan
Lebron

my list 11-15 is not set in stone

KnicksorBust
11-05-2012, 12:30 PM
I think you could argue that Barkley was much better offensively then Moses and an equal or better rebounder.

Moses wasn't exactly known for his defense either.

I am also quite hesitant to agree that Young / Prime Barkley was a defensive liability.
I don't think he was.

How could he be "much better offensively" when Moses in his prime averaged 31ppg/15rpg? Both higher than Chuck. Also, you are underrating Moses's defense. He made two all-defensive 1st teams. So not only did Moses at his peak outscore Barkley but he did it while playing elite defense.


i actually have Hakeem at 10 on my top 10 list buthis list was the bestout of all the ones posted

my list

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem

West
Oscar
Dr J
Mikan
Lebron

my list 11-15 is not set in stone

See this is a list that I disagree with but at least the top 10 makes sense to me. People greatly overrate Hakeem in these lists and underrate players like Bird and Kobe. I'll post mine now as a reference:

1 - Jordan
2 - Kareem
3 - Magic
4 - Kobe
5 - Russell
6 - Bird
7 - Duncan
8 - Wilt
9 - Shaq
10 - Hakeem

Duncan and Kobe still have time to move up.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 12:33 PM
btw if Kobe wins another FMVP he would surpass Bird and Shaq on my all time list and would be in debate vs Russell N Wilt...he wins 2 and we are talking top 3

KnicksorBust
11-05-2012, 12:38 PM
btw if Kobe wins another FMVP he would surpass Bird and Shaq on my all time list and would be in debate vs Russell N Wilt...he wins 2 and we are talking top 3

Doesn't that seem crazy though? He needs 7 rings and 4 finals MVPs just to get into the top 3? At that point, his resume passes Magic and arguably better than Kareem.

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 12:39 PM
Doesn't that seem crazy though? He needs 7 rings and 4 finals MVPs just to get into the top 3? At that point, his resume passes Magic and arguably better than Kareem.

So you judge everyone based on Rings / FMVP's?

What about the fact that Shaq is vastly superior to Kobe in terms of on-court production & performances and consistency over their best 12-13 years and that currently Kobe has no edge in longevity?

Should we just ignore the fact that he was a vastly superior player over the majority of their careers and much more valuable on the court because Kobe has a pretty resume?

It's just absurd.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 12:45 PM
I would have to agree. He has never even been a consensus #1 player in the league. I just can't rank him that highly. LeBron has had multiple #1 seasons and has had so many seasons greater than Kobe has ever had, I honestly would put him ahead of Kobe already

troll... I wonder who takes u serious

C-Style
11-05-2012, 12:47 PM
Doesn't that seem crazy though? He needs 7 rings and 4 finals MVPs just to get into the top 3? At that point, his resume passes Magic and arguably better than Kareem.

thats how i see it and if he wins a ring this yr a long with a f mvp then this can very well happen and regardless if ppl want to persive Kobe as poor player he still avg 28/6/5 for a very long time and is one of two perimeter players in the top Ten to be great on both ends of the floor.

KnicksorBust
11-05-2012, 12:54 PM
So you judge everyone based on Rings / FMVP's?

What about the fact that Shaq is vastly superior to Kobe in terms of on-court production & performances and consistency over their best 12-13 years and that currently Kobe has no edge in longevity?

Should we just ignore the fact that he was a vastly superior player over the majority of their careers and much more valuable on the court because Kobe has a pretty resume?

It's just absurd.

I value rings and playoff performance significantly more than I judge hollow regular season numbers. I didn't why I shouldn't? Is it a coincidence that every player we're talking in the top 10 has won titles? No. Legendary players either raise the level of play of their teammates (Jordan with Pippen, Kobe with Gasol) or carry their teams to titles (Hakeem with the Rockets, Duncan with the Spurs).

I love this notion of Shaq being "vastly superior" to Kobe. Can you even justify that? Because I can easily justify the opposite.

Kobe is a 10x All-NBA 1st Teamer.
Shaq is an 8x All-NBA 1st Teamer.

Kobe is a 9x All-NBA Defensive 1st Teamer.
Shaq is a 0x All-NBA Defensive 1st Teamer.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 01:02 PM
I value rings and playoff performance significantly more than I judge hollow regular season numbers. I didn't why I shouldn't? Is it a coincidence that every player we're talking in the top 10 has won titles? No. Legendary players either raise the level of play of their teammates (Jordan with Pippen, Kobe with Gasol) or carry their teams to titles (Hakeem with the Rockets, Duncan with the Spurs).

I love this notion of Shaq being "vastly superior" to Kobe. Can you even justify that? Because I can easily justify the opposite.

Kobe is a 10x All-NBA 1st Teamer.
Shaq is an 8x All-NBA 1st Teamer.

Kobe is a 9x All-NBA Defensive 1st Teamer.
Shaq is a 0x All-NBA Defensive 1st Teamer.

Comparing the accolades of two players who played two completely different positions and using it as your reasoning really doesn't seem very smart IMO. Also when you consider the fact that Shaq has a top 5 peak and Kobe doesn't even have a top 10 I can fully agree that he's superior (though not vastly).

C-Style
11-05-2012, 01:08 PM
4 Rings
3 FMVP
1 MVP

vs.

7 Rings
4 FMVP
1MVP


is not even debateable. Shaq was more efficient because of talent... Kobe was the better leader had the most work ethic better scorer and more clutch and actually tried defensivly

KnicksorBust
11-05-2012, 01:11 PM
Comparing the accolades of two players who played two completely different positions and using it as your reasoning really doesn't seem very smart IMO.

Why wouldn't it be fair? Now we're eliminating All-NBA teams from the discussion? Look at how distorted the conversation has to twist to diminish Kobe's career. We can't talk about rings. We can't talk about finals MVPs. Now we can't talk about All-NBA teams.


Also when you consider the fact that Shaq has a top 5 peak and Kobe doesn't even have a top 10 I can fully agree that he's superior (though not vastly).

Another post that is purely opinion. Can you support this?

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 01:13 PM
I love this notion of Shaq being "vastly superior" to Kobe. Can you even justify that? Because I can easily justify the opposite.

Kobe is a 10x All-NBA 1st Teamer.
Shaq is an 8x All-NBA 1st Teamer.

Kobe is a 9x All-NBA Defensive 1st Teamer.
Shaq is a 0x All-NBA Defensive 1st Teamer.
Yes I can "justify that".

Shaq's actual production and on-court performances in the playoffs over his best 6-12 years are VASTLY superior to Kobe's.

Shaq's 6 best years are VASTLY superior to Kobe's and the gap between their next best 6 years is even greater since Kobe really falls off after that point while Shaq remains closer to his Prime/Peak level.

lol @ All-NBA garbage.

#1. They play separate positions and face different competition.
#2. Those are regular season awards.
#3. Using All-NBA teams is a terrible way to determine longevity in part because of point #2.

#4. Shaq's defensive impact throughout his Young and Prime years was far greater then Kobe's ever was.
All regular and advanced stats support the above opinion.

Kobe has only deserved a handful of All-Defensive teams anyway.
Once he became "the man" his defensive impact was rarely noticeable or significant let alone on par with a defensive anchor like Shaq.

Media based awards are close to meaningless since they can't be proven to be accurate or non-biased.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 01:16 PM
Comparing the accolades of two players who played two completely different positions and using it as your reasoning really doesn't seem very smart IMO. Also when you consider the fact that Shaq has a top 5 peak and Kobe doesn't even have a top 10 I can fully agree that he's superior (though not vastly).

comparing fg % of two players who play two different positions and using it as your reasoning doesnt really seem very bright as well. If Kobe was a center he would be superior and if Shaq was a sg he would be a lazy scrub

C-Style
11-05-2012, 01:18 PM
btw Kobes opposition was far superior than Shaqs was

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 01:20 PM
comparing fg % of two players who play two different positions and using it as your reasoning doesnt really very bright as well.
Efficiency is efficiency regardless of position.
A missed shot is a missed shot.

If a center can score on similar volume on better efficiency then a guard then he is a better scorer.
If a center can score on similar volume and on similar efficiency while being more consistent and unstoppable then he is a better scorer.

There is no reason to make excuses.

There is a reason why guys like Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Barley are all Top 10 All-Time scorers.

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 01:21 PM
btw Kobes opposition was far superior than Shaqs was

Umm what?

What notable SG's did Kobe ever face in the playoffs?

Old Pierce? Carmelo?

Shaq went against Hakeem, Duncan / Robinson, Garnett, DPOY Mutombo, Wallace Twins etc...

Also when Shaq won as "the man" he had worse supporting casts then Kobe had in the late 00's and he faced tougher competition (Early 00 West >>> Late 00 West).

He also didn't have the league changes its rules (05) to directly benefit his position and style of play infact they did the opposite.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 01:22 PM
Efficiency is efficiency regardless of position.
A missed shot is a missed shot.

If a center can score on similar volume on better efficiency then a guard then he is a better scorer.
If a center can score on similar volume and on similar efficiency while being more consistent and unstoppable then he is a better scorer.

There is no reason to make excuses.

There is a reason why guys like Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Barley are all Top 10 All-Time scorers.

well in that case no perimeter player should be considered top 10 and Hakeem and Russell dont belong in the top ten.then u must think Dwight is one of the greatest scorers of all time... even better than Jordan....lol

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 01:24 PM
well in thay case no perimeter player should be considered top 10 and Hakeem and Russell dont belong in the top ten

Hakeem is slightly overrated as a scorer actually but anyway.

You are wrong in your assessments.

Guards and perimeter oriented bigs can make up the efficiency gap by shooting their FT's well and stuff like that.

Kobe's overall efficiency at his best was not far behind Prime Shaq and Kareem.

The only reason why he was an inferior scorer is because he was much less consistent and more "stoppable" by certain defenders and defenses.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 01:32 PM
according to Andrew32 Dwight is top 3 all time because he shoots the best field goal percentage next to Shaq making him top 3 greatest scorer of all time and since Rings dont matter he should be ahead of Bird Magic Jordan and Hakeem and anyone who shoots a lwer fg percentage cause rings and final mvps dont matter. got it bro, u made me a believer

KnicksorBust
11-05-2012, 01:34 PM
Yes I can "justify that".



Shaq's actual production and on-court performances in the playoffs over his best 6-12 years are VASTLY superior to Kobe's.

Repeated opinion.


Shaq's 6 best years are VASTLY superior to Kobe's and the gap between their next best 6 years is even greater since Kobe really falls off after that point while Shaq remains closer to his Prime/Peak level.

Repeated opinion.


lol @ All-NBA garbage.

All-NBA teams are garbage? They are 5 man teams of the best players from each individual seasons. Have there ever been times where a player was misplaced? Sure. But to just dismiss the whole process when overall it was wildly accurate and successful is blatantlessly disregarding one of the most prestigious measures of accomplishment in the NBA.



#1. They play separate positions and face different competition.

Your point?


#2. Those are regular season awards.

So now regular awards DON't have value? I can't taut his rings or his finals MVPs or his regular season accolades. What's left? :laugh:


#3. Using All-NBA teams is a terrible way to determine longevity in part because of point #2.

Again I don't see your point.


#4. Shaq's defensive impact throughout his Young and Prime years was far greater then Kobe's ever was.
All regular and advanced stats support the above opinion.

Then share some.


Kobe has only deserved a handful of All-Defensive teams anyway.
Once he became "the man" his defensive impact was rarely noticeable or significant let alone on par with a defensive anchor like Shaq.

How many did he deserve? How many should Shaq have?


Media based awards are close to meaningless since they can't be proven to be accurate or non-biased.

Responded to this earlier.

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 01:35 PM
then u must think Dwight is one of the greatest scorers of all time... even better than Jordan....lol
No not really.

The ability to be able to create for yourself at a high level while not being turnover prone is important.

Dwight has not shown that ability yet.

Guys like Jordan, Shaq and Kobe all did.

He also scores at relatively low volume (20ppg) and hasn't proved himself offensively in the Finals yet.
He also seems to perform badly against good defenders (Chandlers) etc...

It is certainly stupid to judge a scorers ability purely on FG% and I never said that is the way you should do it.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 01:39 PM
Why wouldn't it be fair? Now we're eliminating All-NBA teams from the discussion? Look at how distorted the conversation has to twist to diminish Kobe's career. We can't talk about rings. We can't talk about finals MVPs. Now we can't talk about All-NBA teams.

C'mon dude you're better than that. We know ow much of a joke these awards have become and the mere facts that Shaq was a C and Kobe was a guard means that you can't just compare them based on their awards at their respective position and ignore everything else.


Another post that is purely opinion. Can you support this?

I actually thought this was common knowledge didn't know you thought this was an opinion quite interesting.

In 2000 Shaq was actually the Lakers defensive anchor (as a matter of a fact he was elite on that end of the floor) and for his position was a better defensive player than Kobe but when you play in a league where there are more and better defensive players at the C than the SG you tend to miss out on things like All team D and we don't even have to talk about how absolutely dominant he was offensively. The man was one vote away from being the first unanimous MVP winner in the history of the NBA (since you like the accolades argument so much) despite having Kobe on his team mind you.

The best thing about Shaq's best year was how great he was defensively since well we know that the offense was always there. Shaq was BETTER than Kobe defensively but because Alonzo Morning the eventual DPOY winner was on the first team he missed out and was placed on the 2nd team. Overall he was a top 5 defensive player in the league that season. Tell me how can I compare the accolades of a C and an SG and act as if thats all that should be considered.

I don't even think it makes sense to bring stats into the discussion since it really matters not . At his peak Shaq was better/more valuable on both ends of the floor in the RS and playoffs than Kobe was at any point in his career. If we were to discuss stats it wouldn't even be a discussion.

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 01:40 PM
For KnicksorBust :


#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER

Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6

------------------------------------------------------------

#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER

Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33

------------------------------------------------------------

#15.
Kobe : Post Season - PER

Peak : 26.8
Top 5 : 24
Top 7 : 23
Top 10 : 22.98
Top 13 : 21.62

------------------------------------------------------------

See the difference...?

I could post raw stats / efficiency numbers and other advanced stats and it would paint the same picture as the above.

Kobe wasn't on Shaq's level as a player.

Shaq is a certified Top 5 All-Timer and a GOAT candidate while Kobe will (most likely) never be able to be "argued" higher then 6 or 7 even assuming he adds 1-3 more good years.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 01:41 PM
comparing fg % of two players who play two different positions and using it as your reasoning doesnt really seem very bright as well. If Kobe was a center he would be superior and if Shaq was a sg he would be a lazy scrub

You really don't understand context don't you?

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 01:42 PM
btw Kobes opposition was far superior than Shaqs was

Really care to explain

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 01:43 PM
4 Rings
3 FMVP
1 MVP

vs.

7 Rings
4 FMVP
1MVP


is not even debateable. Shaq was more efficient because of talent... Kobe was the better leader had the most work ethic better scorer and more clutch and actually tried defensivly

Miss Cleo is that you?

And you're trying to say Shaq never tried defensively? Tell me something did you start watching the NBA yesterday?

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 01:46 PM
And you're trying to say Shaq never tried defensively?

Shaq is Top 10 All-Time in playoff D-WShares and he consistently scored well by DRAPM (he was always in the + range) until his last 2-3 years in the league.

He even led the league in DRAPM in 2002 and should have won DPOY in 00.

Funny how some people ignore the fact that he was and took pride in being a 2 way player.
Coming out of college he was more known for his defense (5.2 bpg) then his offense.

But no Shaq was just a fat lazy sumo wrestler who couldn't dribble and was allowed to travel and offensive foul to score all his points.
That is what they believe lol.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 01:52 PM
wtf this guy just said effiency is effiency and made shot is a made shot... And my ***, Shaq has in no way showed to create a shot on a level of Jordan or Kobe in any way shape or form unless its five feet away from the basket where can use his strengh to dominate. He was just a dominant force with above average post skill. u wanna see the real post moves see Hakeem oh wait hes overated according to u

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 01:52 PM
Shaq finished 2nd in DPOY voting (http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2000.html#dpoy) in 00 while Kobe finished 5th but Kobe made the first team and Shaq made the 2nd team. Hell Eddie Jones finished higher than Kobe in DPOY voting yet he made the 2nd team D and Kobe made the first. Are we really going to hold these accolades as the sole reason why one player is better than another?

C'mon KoB like I said you're better than that even if you have an irrational love for ranking Kobe. Peak Shaq honestly takes a dump on peak Kobe and that's no disrespect to Kobe but rather recognizing how great Shaq was. His peak is the only peak IMO that rivals that of Jordan's.

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 01:55 PM
And my ***, Shaq has in no way showed to create a shot on a level of Jordan or Kobe in any way shape or form unless its five feet away from the basket where can use his strengh to dominate. He was just a dominant force with above average post skill. u wanna see the real post moves see Hakeem oh wait hes overated according to u
Eh... what?
All you had to do was dump the ball into Shaq and he'd create for himself or others.

Shaq was probably Top 5 in terms of post skill.
His footwork was beautiful and he had a number of spin moves, up and under type moves and was excellent at using fakes and rolling off his man.

His range on his J-Hook also went out to a good 10-12 feet especially from 95-03 when he used it frequently and it was more refined.

Yeah Hakeem was more skilled however.
Productiveness / Effectiveness >>> Skill

Nate Robinson might be more skilled then Dwight Howard but he isn't a better scorer, lol.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 01:55 PM
wtf this guy just said effiency is effiency and made shot is a made shot... And my ***, Shaq has in no way showed to create a shot on a level of Jordan or Kobe in any way shape or form unless its five feet away from the basket where can use his strengh to dominate. He was just a dominant force with above average post skill. u wanna see the real post moves see Hakeem oh wait hes overated according to u

You want to see real defense? Look at Hakeem IMO the 2nd greatest defensive player to ever step foot on a basketball court and do you remember (well I don't really think you know much about these days based on your comments thus far) what a young Shaq did against him? Imagine what prime or PEAK Shaq would do.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 01:57 PM
Miss Cleo is that you?

And you're trying to say Shaq never tried defensively? Tell me something did you start watching the NBA yesterday?

hey little guy read the convo we were having with Andrew32 and no i started watching the Lakers before he became a Laker and he is nowhere near the defender he could have been...He would never get back defensivly sucked on pick n rolls was a poor rebounder and never blocked many shots...a sign of a poor defender. i dunno wtf u be watching

Stinkyoutsider
11-05-2012, 01:58 PM
I think Kobe can be anywhere in the top 10 or 12 and be proud? We're talking about the greatest players in NBA history so anywhere in the top 20 is great...

There's a lot of people around the office where I work who say Dwayne Wade should be listed as one of the greatest players of all time (top 20). If Wade is that high, Kobe should be higher because he's a better player than Wade IMO.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 01:59 PM
You ain't gotta violate a real *****, im just saying as the man, he didn't really so the damage that Shaq and Duncan did

He did most of his damage as the 2nd guy, and barely did anything as a 1st option

Except win 2 championships, MVP, 2 finals MVP, scoring tittle...... :facepalm:

C-Style
11-05-2012, 02:00 PM
You want to see real defense? Look at Hakeem IMO the 2nd greatest defensive player to ever step foot on a basketball court and do you remember (well I don't really think you know much about these days based on your comments thus far) what a young Shaq did against him? Imagine what prime or PEAK Shaq would do.
he was able to that because he was physically superior but if He was such a great defender why did Hakeem bust his *** offensivly?

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 02:02 PM
He would never get back defensivly sucked on pick n rolls was a poor rebounder and never blocked many shots...a sign of a poor defender. i dunno wtf u be watching
None of that is true.

Shaq took pride in being a two way player.

He hustled back on defense, was an excellent rebounder and shot-blocker.

He'd routinely have 3, 5 and even 8+ blocks in the playoff games during the early 00's.

Even past his Prime in 2004 he averaged 3.5bpg through the first three rounds.

He wasn't the greatest PnR defender ever but he was well above average at defending it throughout his Young and Prime years.
He made the effort consistently enough to step out and defend those sort of plays.
I remember Phil even praising him for his effort on help defense in 2000.

He is #3 All-Times in playoff rebounds behind only Wilt and Russell and he is Top 3-4 in blocks.

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 02:03 PM
he was able to that because he was physically superior but if He was such a great defender why did Hakeem bust his *** offensivly?
Hakeem shot 48% against Shaq.

He shot well above 50% against Ewing and David Robinson.

You are acting like Peak Hakeem was easy to defend.
I guess Shaq should have shut him down. :facepalm:

What about when Paul Pierce outplayed Peak Kobe in the 2008 Finals and shot very efficiently.
Where was Kobe's defense?

See how silly that is?

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:05 PM
hey little guy read the convo we were having with Andrew32 and no i started watching the Lakers before he became a Laker and he is nowhere near the defender he could have been...He would never get back defensivly sucked on pick n rolls was a poor rebounder and never blocked many shots...a sign of a poor defender. i dunno wtf u be watching

Yea you CLEARLY never watched Shaq on defense on his prime.

Remember that poor defender said by quite a knowledgeable few being the best defensive big in the league despite playing at the same time as D-Rob, TD, KG, Mourning and Motumbo.

C-Style
11-05-2012, 02:05 PM
nate robinson more skilled then Shaq lol were the **** did u hear this?lol we are having conversations about top 10 players here...need to get back to work im falling behind...peace

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:06 PM
None of that is true.

Shaq took pride in being a two way player.

He hustled back on defense, was an excellent rebounder and shot-blocker.

He'd routinely have 3, 5 and even 8+ blocks in the playoff games during the early 00's.

Even past his Prime in 2004 he averaged 3.5bpg through the first three rounds.

He wasn't the greatest PnR defender ever but he was well above average at defending it throughout his Young and Prime years.
He made the effort consistently enough to step out and defend those sort of plays.
I remember Phil even praising him for his effort on help defense in 2000.

He is #3 All-Times in playoff rebounds behind only Wilt and Russell and he is Top 3-4 in blocks.

The bolded made me laugh! Bottom line, people were just intimidated by Shaq more than anything. His defense was above average, not great. Shaq was lazy 70% of the time. And i've been watching Laker games since 85.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:06 PM
he was able to that because he was physically superior but if He was such a great defender why did Hakeem bust his *** offensivly?

Hakeem was Hakeem. You know the guy with the greatest post game we have ever seen from a C that guy. The same guy no one else could stop. Shaq played against Hakeem when he was much younger and not as good defensively as well.

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 02:06 PM
nate robinson more skilled then Shaq lol were the **** did u hear this?lol we are having conversations about top 10 players here...need to get back to work im falling behind...peace

Alright, cya later. :o

Andrew32
11-05-2012, 02:08 PM
Bottom line, people were just intimidated by Shaq more than anything. His defense was above average, not great. Shaq was lazy 70% of the time. And i've been watching Laker games since 85.

I have followed Shaq throughout his entire career since he was always my favorite player and I disagree whole heartedly.

Like I said before he took pride in being a two way player.

He always played hard on the court (even though he partied too hard in the off-season) and always gave 100% on both ends in the playoffs.

Can you prove he didn't play his hardest or that he was lazy?
The numbers (normal and advanced) and imo the eye test clearly disprove your assertions.

Shaq had love for the game. He played 19 years for a reason.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:10 PM
The bolded made me laugh! Bottom line, people were just intimidated by Shaq more than anything. His defense was above average, not great. Shaq was lazy 70% of the time. And i've been watching Laker games since 85.

I swear the idiotic things Lakers fans would say to discredit Shaq and pump up Kobe astonishes me.

Shaq was a TOP 5 defensive player when he was playing his best seriously WTF are you guys even watching?

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 02:12 PM
Kobe is barely in my top 10, but he won't be for long unless he keeps playing at this level for another five years and wins at least 1-2 more titles. I don't see it happening. Duncan, Hakeem, Bird and Shaq all had better numbers at their peaks and were arguably better players in the postseason. They also each won legitimate MVPs and were legitimately the best players in the NBA at a given time. Kobe never was and his one MVP was a joke.

But that being said, I don't think it's "illogical" to put Kobe in the top 9. I think you could make a strong case for Kobe in the 6-9 range if you pulled from certain statistics and certain moments in his career. However, I DO think putting him in the top 5 is completely illogical, because you'd have to put him ahead of MJ, Kareem, Magic, Wilt or Russell.

Baller1
11-05-2012, 02:14 PM
I swear the idiotic things Lakers fans would say to discredit Shaq and pump up Kobe astonishes me.

Shaq was a TOP 5 defensive player when he was playing his best seriously WTF are you guys even watching?

No sense arguing with Laker fans, Swash. When it comes to Kobe... It's hopeless.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:18 PM
No sense arguing with Laker fans, Swash. When it comes to Kobe... It's hopeless.

Because we watch Kobe play and make our judgment based on in game performance, not hollinger crap.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:19 PM
hey little guy read the convo we were having with Andrew32 and no i started watching the Lakers before he became a Laker and he is nowhere near the defender he could have been...He would never get back defensivly sucked on pick n rolls was a poor rebounder and never blocked many shots...a sign of a poor defender. i dunno wtf u be watching

Shaq is 15th all time in blocks per game, 8th all time in total blocks and 20th all time in blocks %. Like I said before you have absolutely NO idea what the hell you're talking about. At his best Shaq was elite defensively in almost every aspect of D from a C and was absolutely the Lakers anchor on that end of the floor.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:21 PM
Because we watch Kobe play and make our judgment based on in game performance, not hollinger crap.

You know what's great? Not a single person has mentioned a single advanced stat in relation to Kobe in this thread. There are also quite a few Lakers fans who are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more knowledgeable than you are that can make a case for Kobe using the very same "hollinger crap" you speak of.

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 02:21 PM
Because we watch Kobe play and make our judgment based on in game performance, not hollinger crap.

How old are you? Because the ONLY way I'd buy this ******** of an argument is if you had watched Wilt and Russell play. Otherwise this argument holds no weight whatsoever in an all-time argument. And I'm guessing that the guys on PSD who ARE actually old enough to have seen Wilt and Russell play would totally discount your argument without ever citing advanced statistics.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:22 PM
I swear the idiotic things Lakers fans would say to discredit Shaq and pump up Kobe astonishes me.

Shaq was a TOP 5 defensive player when he was playing his best seriously WTF are you guys even watching?

Again, im a Laker fan so I watched Shaq play EVERY NIGHT. The bold portion pretty much sums it up. Shaq did'nt always "play his best". People always want to turn this into some "Kobe fans.... blah blah blah". The fact is we dont hate Kobe like everyone else who had to deal with him KILLING their favorite team night in and out. I was a bigger Shaq fan than Kobe fan by far, but im just being honest right now. At least my opinion.

pebloemer
11-05-2012, 02:23 PM
There is no way he should be higher than 9 on any all time list, great player and all but the accolades aren't enough to propell him over shaq or Duncan to be honest

5 rings but only 2 finals Mvp? That means that only on 2 runs was he the man. And have you seen the lakers from 00-04's record without shaq (while shaq was injured) versus without kobe (when kobe was injured and shaq was in)

Someone should pull those figgas up, shaq has a better record without kobe during that period than kobe does without shaq

I'm not saying kobe is overated, but it's illogical to say this man is better than Shaq or Duncan while he only has 2 finals Mvp

It's foolish to be a man called Frank

All those stats are cute and all but at the end of the day, finals Mvp is the most important accolade when discussing GOAT players

By my account, Chamberlin shouldn't be in the top 5 or anywhere near there, a man that dominant with only 1 ring considered better than shaq? Please

There has to be a correlation between rings, and stats my ****** on that real

And kobe has a nice resume, but his record on the lakers when shaq was injured vs shaqs record while kobe was injured was the final straw for me

Kobe was a terrific 2nd option and a good first option but was never really 'the man'

And the teams He beat? The Orlando Magic who made it to the finals because my ***** garnet was injured and going 1-1 against the celtics doesn't make him a top 8 player homie

On that real
. What yall think?

WTF?

If you are going to make threads, please be more coherent.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:24 PM
You know what's great? Not a single person has mentioned a single advanced stat in relation to Kobe in this thread. There are also quite a few Lakers fans who are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more knowledgeable than you are that can make a case for Kobe using the very same "hollinger crap" you speak of.

You dont know me


How old are you? Because the ONLY way I'd buy this ******** of an argument is if you had watched Wilt and Russell play. Otherwise this argument holds no weight whatsoever in an all-time argument. And I'm guessing that the guys on PSD who ARE actually old enough to have seen Wilt and Russell play would totally discount your argument without ever citing advanced statistics.

36

Baller1
11-05-2012, 02:25 PM
Because we watch Kobe play and make our judgment based on in game performance, not hollinger crap.

So you watch Kobe chuck ridiculous shots and consistently remain relatively inefficient for an "all-time great".

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:27 PM
So you watch Kobe chuck ridiculous shots and consistently remain relatively inefficient for an "all-time great".

Yea, somehow through all of that he's won 5 tittles. Go figure.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:28 PM
Again, im a Laker fan so I watched Shaq play EVERY NIGHT. The bold portion pretty much sums it up. Shaq did'nt always "play his best". People always want to turn this into some "Kobe fans.... blah blah blah". The fact is we dont hate Kobe like everyone else who had to deal with him KILLING their favorite team night in and out. I was a bigger Shaq fan than Kobe fan by far, but im just being honest right now. At least my opinion.

I can't believe I'm actually going to try with you but here it goes :sigh:

When Shaq played at his best (between 99-01) and was actually giving his all on both ends of the floor was hustle back on D? Did he attempt to block shots, did he protect the rim forcing most of the Lakers opponents to be jump shooters did he play some of the best D on opposing Cs that we saw by any player in the league?

ghettosean
11-05-2012, 02:30 PM
When I'm ranking players, I look at all around stats. Rebounds, assits. It's not just about how many points they scored and how many rings they got.

There are a lot of players who do more on the court than Kobe.

For me, it's like this: Russell won all the rings. Wilt set all the records, Kareem broke all the records, and they all say that Oscar Robertson was the best they ever player against or with. So those guys are at the top for me. Then you got Magic and Bird and Jordan. Magic and Bird brought basketball to the world and Jordan exploded what they did. They were all better play makers and better rebounders than Kobe and all shot a higher FG%.

Then we have the centers. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq all got more done on the floor than Kobe did.

Then we have the power forwards. I would take Barkley, Karl Malone, Duncan and Garnett over kobe any day of the week.

Then we have Elgin Baylor... I mean, the guy was amazing.

Then I gotta slip Stockton in there, though I know everybody is going to moan and groan about that.

And, though he's still very young and has yet to finish building his legacy, it is clear to me that LBJ is better than Kobe.

I would rank all of those players ahead of Kobe. Kobe has been blessed to play with very talented players. Shaq and co. Bynum and Gasol. Now Howard and Gasol and Nash. His rings are a team accomplishment and shouldn't rank him higher than guys like Barkley and Malone just because he was in a better situation than they were. Bottom line, if Jordan played with the same rosters Kobe did, he would have come away with about 10 rings. And that is the truth. If Magic has played with those rosters, he also would have come away with more than five rings. If Malone or Barkley got to play alongside Shaq, or Bynum, or Gasol or Howard, in their prime, they would have dominated the league.

Kobe is awesome, but he's not even in my top ten.

I stopped reading right around here....

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:31 PM
There is nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo way Nickydemz is 36. A 36 yo THAT immature? Not possible. That's the biggest lie I've seen on PSD in quite some time.

KnicksorBust
11-05-2012, 02:35 PM
C'mon dude you're better than that. We know ow much of a joke these awards have become and the mere facts that Shaq was a C and Kobe was a guard means that you can't just compare them based on their awards at their respective position and ignore everything else.



I actually thought this was common knowledge didn't know you thought this was an opinion quite interesting.

In 2000 Shaq was actually the Lakers defensive anchor (as a matter of a fact he was elite on that end of the floor) and for his position was a better defensive player than Kobe but when you play in a league where there are more and better defensive players at the C than the SG you tend to miss out on things like All team D and we don't even have to talk about how absolutely dominant he was offensively. The man was one vote away from being the first unanimous MVP winner in the history of the NBA (since you like the accolades argument so much) despite having Kobe on his team mind you.

The best thing about Shaq's best year was how great he was defensively since well we know that the offense was always there. Shaq was BETTER than Kobe defensively but because Alonzo Morning the eventual DPOY winner was on the first team he missed out and was placed on the 2nd team. Overall he was a top 5 defensive player in the league that season. Tell me how can I compare the accolades of a C and an SG and act as if thats all that should be considered.

I don't even think it makes sense to bring stats into the discussion since it really matters not . At his peak Shaq was better/more valuable on both ends of the floor in the RS and playoffs than Kobe was at any point in his career. If we were to discuss stats it wouldn't even be a discussion.


For KnicksorBust :


See the difference...?

I could post raw stats / efficiency numbers and other advanced stats and it would paint the same picture as the above.

Kobe wasn't on Shaq's level as a player.

Shaq is a certified Top 5 All-Timer and a GOAT candidate while Kobe will (most likely) never be able to be "argued" higher then 6 or 7 even assuming he adds 1-3 more good years.

Will respond to these later.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:40 PM
There is nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo way Nickydemz is 36. A 36 yo THAT immature? Not possible. That's the biggest lie I've seen on PSD in quite some time.

Whatever man. I came to PSD with an open mind, then I saw how some of the people are around here and it was just whatever to me. And if by immature you mean, not a Lebron fan, belive it. Your immature too though bro. You constantly argue like a woman or 12 old. But its passive aggresive and the culture here.

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 02:41 PM
36

So you're old enough to have seen guys like Kareem, Magic, Moses and Bird play, but not old enough to discuss Wilt, Russell, West or Oscar. So how are you supposed to compare those players with your eyeball test? If you can't talk about a player's game firsthand, then you HAVE to use statistics to do so, and if you're going to used numbers, why not use numbers put together by statisticians to best explain a player's productivity?

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:42 PM
I can't believe I'm actually going to try with you but here it goes :sigh:

When Shaq played at his best (between 99-01) and was actually giving his all on both ends of the floor was hustle back on D? Did he attempt to block shots, did he protect the rim forcing most of the Lakers opponents to be jump shooters did he play some of the best D on opposing Cs that we saw by any player in the league?

I guess your immature as well because your reading comp. is looking suspect. I said Shaq took games off. You get that? I didnt say he never did the things that you are pointing out, I said HE TOOK GAMES OFF.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:44 PM
So you're old enough to have seen guys like Kareem, Magic, Moses and Bird play, but not old enough to discuss Wilt, Russell, West or Oscar. So how are you supposed to compare those players with your eyeball test? If you can't talk about a player's game firsthand, then you HAVE to use statistics to do so, and if you're going to used numbers, why not use numbers put together by statisticians to best explain a player's productivity?

Numbers are fine with me bro, I have a problem with some of the formulas used in advanced stats. And honestly, i dont really like to compare players from 2 generations ago to the players of today. The evolution of the game is tremendous.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:45 PM
I guess your immature as well because your reading comp. is looking suspect. I said Shaq took games off. You get that? I didnt say he never did the things that you are pointing out, I said HE TOOK GAMES OFF.

I asked you a simple question why can't you answer it? Be a man and answer the damn question.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 02:46 PM
I asked you a simple question why can't you answer it? Be a man and answer the damn question.

lmao. You do the same **** all the time my man. I answerd your question, it just wasn't the answered you wanted to read. Your act is old. And i bolded the answer. lmfao

BKdoubleStacker
11-05-2012, 02:46 PM
These threads are so predictable, as well as the posters who chime in

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 02:48 PM
Its always fun to speak on NBA topics and trade dialgoue on the overrated,underrated and overvalued

but a AI/BRON/KOBE topic is hard to top,especially on psd

WILT only has 1 ring? proves my point what i mean by having a 'ring'...then you will say he need 2 then 3 then 4 then 5 then 12 to pass RUSS...

dont look at WILTS stats, look at his impact and the way he was being gameplanned for,thats how you define whos the cream of crop from diff. eras, and the talent around them and the actual 'game' of the player

its like a dummy is the new epidemic on psd

like i've said over and over again from a actual bball player point of view(from lowest level to nba), its hard to rank a backup player turned starter when hype outweights the actual substance...its almost like KOBE is turning into the FAVRE/JETER of NBA...just playing long enough to break records but nobody has them placed in top 5-10 players ever in NFL/MLB...except for KOBEfiens in NBA


its just comical how SHAQ/ALCINDOR/BRON/IVERSON(my top 10 based on actual 'game') would enter the league and ride the pine for yrs....its like LA giving SHAQ that 136mil deal but SHAQ rode the bench 3 of his first 4yrs preLA, thats plenty of time to figure out who is who and what is what, how could SHAQ be worth that if he rode bench his first 3yrs? same way i look at KOBE

Answer me this LAKERLAND,how can he be so damn good or his 'game' is so JORDANesque but he riding pine behind SCOTT/JONES/EXEL? When judging/ranking a player you have to start from inception to ending,not a 4-5yr stretch or 'peak' yrs or 'prime' yrs, but day1 to ending...just like everybody is doing for BRON, but to me everybody starts KOBE career from 2000(his first season starting) but class of 96draft is where it began, 7ppg(same as PIPP rookie yr,reason i call him a scoring version of PIPP)

Its like SHAQ coming to LA and riding behind DIVAC(if not traded) and ELDEN CAMPBELL and a filler for his first 3yrs there...we'd all be like what the **** is goin on right if DIESEL is so dominant and comparing himself to WILT/ALCINDOR but riding the pine?

KOBE came in league at 17-18yrs old playing just like a 35yr old JORDAN,xact mirror image, and besides his youth, JORDAN was still the better athlete,naturally and even at that age...KB just had his youth

if KOBE was 6th man of yr annually when he first came in and turned starter later then he would have been viewed diff. by me(GINOBILI like?)..but he came in the league comparing himself/mimicking JORDAN and sitting behind avg-good players, not HOF worthy caliber type



but when he won rings and was in LA hollywood market its like he became something that was never seen(from a ROBIN/2nd option)...damn imagine if PIPP would have played in LA market as ROBIN to win 6rings...amazingly he would be no lower than top 15alltime because im sure he would have made way more ALLNBA def. teams playing in that fickle media market,
...
Its like him and PIPPEN are alike,but KOBE is more a scorer

when PIPPEN led the BULLS without JORDAN he was still ROBIN, or just no1 option ROBIN...same with KOBE after SHAQ left.. as he is naturally a better scorer than PIPP was ,positions dont matter

KOBE was a sidekick...he said it,also said he was 'tired' of being a sidekick...

now is that the words of a 'franchise' guy or a ''backupguard turned starter who was a allstar before a regular season starter''?then dissing your team/gm for lack of talent only to be told its his competitive nature so let him do him but kill others for it... talk about having your icecream-cake-gifts all in one,wat a spoiled pup because they drafted him(and MAGIC)

imagine if WILT/ALCINDOR/SHAQ would have played entire career in LA, they all would have been tied for no1 alltime,top 3 spots locked no argument...you already see MAGIC in top 3 basically and most top 5

i hear people say ALCINDOR is reason why MAGIC won, and i hear people say MAGIC is reason ALCINDOR won, then i look at situations where ALCINDOR won league MVP+SHIP without MAGIC or a psd 'prime' BIG O, and MAGIC wanted no part of CHITOWN and only wanted LA/ALCINDOR or he was going back to college....talk about 2 of the biggest frontrunner winners in history of league(MAGIC-KOBE), KOBE said same thing to NETS/HORNETS...trade him to LA or wouldnt he reenter draft following yr? educate me LAKERfiens because i may be talking out my *** on this topic since i really dont know anything about bball other than playing it



like i've said where would you rank a scoring version of PIPPEN? since they all say PIPP is a top '50' player of alltime, does a scoring version rank somewhere in top 30 range?

all this top 10 or 5 **** is based on playing so long(and in LA) and for a contender who makes deep playoff runs basically annually and alot alot alot of mediaagendahype, not off of his 'game' but off JORDANS game and we all know who the corporate champ is right?

KOBE can ball or he wouldnt have came straight out of highschool to sit behind BYRON SCOTT right?

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 02:52 PM
Numbers are fine with me bro, I have a problem with some of the formulas used in advanced stats. And honestly, i dont really like to compare players from 2 generations ago to the players of today. The evolution of the game is tremendous.

But if you're doing a fair all-time list (like the OP is discussing), then you can't simply ignore the 60s or 70s like they never happened. The 40s and 50s I can see, but not the 60s or 70s once the shot clock was added and the influx of black players significantly improved the league's talent pool.

And even if you DON'T use advanced stats and I just use context and basic numbers, I can still easily argue that Kobe is not deserving of being higher than 10th with the following argument:


Kobe was never the best player in the NBA at any given time and he did not deserve the one MVP he was given.

That's it. To me, there is no way you can prove to me that he was the best player in the league at any point or that he was deserving of his lone MVP title. And every single other player ahead of him can easily say both of those things.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 02:55 PM
lmao. You do the same **** all the time my man. I answerd your question, it just wasn't the answered you wanted to read. Your act is old. And i bolded the answer. lmfao

I truly pity you.

bluefire7002
11-05-2012, 03:03 PM
Its always fun to speak on NBA topics and trade dialgoue on the overrated,underrated and overvalued

but a AI/BRON/KOBE topic is hard to top,especially on psd

WILT only has 1 ring? proves my point what i mean by having a 'ring'...then you will say he need 2 then 3 then 4 then 5 then 12 to pass RUSS...

dont look at WILTS stats, look at his impact and the way he was being gameplanned for,thats how you define whos the cream of crop from diff. eras, and the talent around them and the actual 'game' of the player

its like a dummy is the new epidemic on psd

like i've said over and over again from a actual bball player point of view(from lowest level to nba), its hard to rank a backup player turned starter when hype outweights the actual substance...its almost like KOBE is turning into the FAVRE/JETER of NBA...just playing long enough to break records but nobody has them placed in top 5-10 players ever in NFL/MLB...except for KOBEfiens in NBA


its just comical how SHAQ/ALCINDOR/BRON/IVERSON(my top 10 based on actual 'game') would enter the league and ride the pine for yrs....its like LA giving SHAQ that 136mil deal but SHAQ rode the bench 3 of his first 4yrs preLA, thats plenty of time to figure out who is who and what is what, how could SHAQ be worth that if he rode bench his first 3yrs? same way i look at KOBE

Answer me this LAKERLAND,how can he be so damn good or his 'game' is so JORDANesque but he riding pine behind SCOTT/JONES/EXEL? When judging/ranking a player you have to start from inception to ending,not a 4-5yr stretch or 'peak' yrs or 'prime' yrs, but day1 to ending...just like everybody is doing for BRON, but to me everybody starts KOBE career from 2000(his first season starting) but class of 96draft is where it began, 7ppg(same as PIPP rookie yr,reason i call him a scoring version of PIPP)

Its like SHAQ coming to LA and riding behind DIVAC(if not traded) and ELDEN CAMPBELL and a filler for his first 3yrs there...we'd all be like what the **** is goin on right if DIESEL is so dominant and comparing himself to WILT/ALCINDOR but riding the pine?

KOBE came in league at 17-18yrs old playing just like a 35yr old JORDAN,xact mirror image, and besides his youth, JORDAN was still the better athlete,naturally and even at that age...KB just had his youth

if KOBE was 6th man of yr annually when he first came in and turned starter later then he would have been viewed diff. by me(GINOBILI like?)..but he came in the league comparing himself/mimicking JORDAN and sitting behind avg-good players, not HOF worthy caliber type



but when he won rings and was in LA hollywood market its like he became something that was never seen(from a ROBIN/2nd option)...damn imagine if PIPP would have played in LA market as ROBIN to win 6rings...amazingly he would be no lower than top 15alltime because im sure he would have made way more ALLNBA def. teams playing in that fickle media market,
...
Its like him and PIPPEN are alike,but KOBE is more a scorer

when PIPPEN led the BULLS without JORDAN he was still ROBIN, or just no1 option ROBIN...same with KOBE after SHAQ left.. as he is naturally a better scorer than PIPP was ,positions dont matter

KOBE was a sidekick...he said it,also said he was 'tired' of being a sidekick...

now is that the words of a 'franchise' guy or a ''backupguard turned starter who was a allstar before a regular season starter''?then dissing your team/gm for lack of talent only to be told its his competitive nature so let him do him but kill others for it... talk about having your icecream-cake-gifts all in one,wat a spoiled pup because they drafted him(and MAGIC)

imagine if WILT/ALCINDOR/SHAQ would have played entire career in LA, they all would have been tied for no1 alltime,top 3 spots locked no argument...you already see MAGIC in top 3 basically and most top 5

i hear people say ALCINDOR is reason why MAGIC won, and i hear people say MAGIC is reason ALCINDOR won, then i look at situations where ALCINDOR won league MVP+SHIP without MAGIC or a psd 'prime' BIG O, and MAGIC wanted no part of CHITOWN and only wanted LA/ALCINDOR or he was going back to college....talk about 2 of the biggest frontrunner winners in history of league(MAGIC-KOBE), KOBE said same thing to NETS/HORNETS...trade him to LA or wouldnt he reenter draft following yr? educate me LAKERfiens because i may be talking out my *** on this topic since i really dont know anything about bball other than playing it



like i've said where would you rank a scoring version of PIPPEN? since they all say PIPP is a top '50' player of alltime, does a scoring version rank somewhere in top 30 range?

all this top 10 or 5 **** is based on playing so long(and in LA) and for a contender who makes deep playoff runs basically annually and alot alot alot of mediaagendahype, not off of his 'game' but off JORDANS game and we all know who the corporate champ is right?

KOBE can ball or he wouldnt have came straight out of highschool to sit behind BYRON SCOTT right?

You always go on these essay type rants with your same points... I skipped straight to the very end to this... People including myself have answered this for you yet you seem to not comprehend it...
1) Kobe was the first class of High school players to come into the NBA. Head coaches weren't giving them the benefit of the doubt to take over a starting spot over veterans.
2) Kobe stepped into an already stacked team
3) I cant believe you are judging where you rank kobe all time based on him coming off the bench as a rookie. Why not take it a step further into the high school career of all-time greats?? oh wait, Jordan didnt make his basketball team one year... We shouldnt make him #1 all time than right? yes thats sarcasm btw

Baller1
11-05-2012, 03:11 PM
Yea, somehow through all of that he's won 5 tittles. Go figure.

He's played with Shaq, Malone, Payton, Pau, Nash, Dwight, Bynum, Odom and Artest in his career, while being coached by Jackson. Do you realize the talent he's played with over the years?

LAKERMANIA
11-05-2012, 03:15 PM
He's played with Shaq, Malone, Payton, Pau, Nash, Dwight, Bynum, Odom and Artest in his career, while being coached by Jackson. Do you realize the talent he's played with over the years?

Malone, Payton, Nash, and Artest were not in their primes when Kobe played with them...

Shaq, Dwight, Odom and Pau were, but I don't understand why that takes away from any of his accomplishments.. He was part of a team, the team won. Simple as that.

Baller1
11-05-2012, 03:21 PM
Malone, Payton, Nash, and Artest were not in their primes when Kobe played with them...

Shaq, Dwight, Odom and Pau were, but I don't understand why that takes away from any of his accomplishments.. He was part of a team, the team won. Simple as that.

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the help he's had? He wasn't even the best player on his team for over half of his championships, and that should hold some serious weight.

And you say the "team" won, simple as that... Ok, so why is he so highly regarded with such a lack of individual awards such as MVP's and Finals MVP's? One MVP, two out of the five Finals MVP's, and zero DPOY awards. Those are obviously not accomplishments to scoff at, but in no way do those scream top 5 of all time in any way.

In my eyes, Kobe should never, ever be ranked higher than Shaq on any all time list.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 03:29 PM
But if you're doing a fair all-time list (like the OP is discussing), then you can't simply ignore the 60s or 70s like they never happened. The 40s and 50s I can see, but not the 60s or 70s once the shot clock was added and the influx of black players significantly improved the league's talent pool.

And even if you DON'T use advanced stats and I just use context and basic numbers, I can still easily argue that Kobe is not deserving of being higher than 10th with the following argument:



That's it. To me, there is no way you can prove to me that he was the best player in the league at any point or that he was deserving of his lone MVP title. And every single other player ahead of him can easily say both of those things.

I hear what your saying. I just choose to not really count players to much from those eras. But the whole "Kobe was never the best in league" is an arguable statement. I can quote countless analyst and former players that had Kobe the best in the league at some time in his carrer. People who say he wasnt are the ones that only look at box scores and pay no attention to his actual play on the court. Thats my opinion


I truly pity you.

Oh nooooooo!!! :speechless:

LAKERMANIA
11-05-2012, 03:41 PM
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the help he's had? He wasn't even the best player on his team for over half of his championships, and that should hold some serious weight.

No you don't ignore the help he has had, but if that is the case, why is Bill Russell in the top 5 all time? Look at the team he played on.. What about Larry Bird's Celtics? What about the Showtime Lakers? (Magic played with THE greatest center of all time) If Kobe gets this criticism, other players should as well.. And I'm not saying you personally don't argue the same for Bill Russell, Magic and Bird, I'm just saying people should be consistent with this argument. And I can also say the same for Shaq, he never truly won without a good guard by his side.. Magic truly never won without Kareem, Kareem never won without a HOF guard either..


And you say the "team" won, simple as that... Ok, so why is he so highly regarded with such a lack of individual awards such as MVP's and Finals MVP's? One MVP, two out of the five Finals MVP's, and zero DPOY awards. Those are obviously not accomplishments to scoff at, but in no way do those scream top 5 of all time in any way.

Well the individual awards argument defeats the purpose of the "team" winning argument..

I'll put it this way, Kobe played next to a dominant Center like Shaq from ages 21-23 while Shaq was in his prime, you can put 21-23 year old MJ on that 2000-2002 Lakers team and Shaq would have still won Finals MVP all three years, that doesn't mean MJ is not as good as a player because of it.. It just shows how dominant Shaq was those years..

Kobe didn't win more MVPs because he was on a bad team during his prime and the NBA gives MVP to top teams in the league's best player. And at the tail end of his prime, he won 2 more titles and won Finals MVP both years.. Just goes to show that if he had a great team from 2005-2008 prior to getting Gasol, he could have won more regular season and finals MVPs, but it is what it is..

And Kobe hasn't won DPOY is kind of a mystery to me, his peak defensive years was early on from 2000-2004, like I said, he didn't win, it is what it is..


In my eyes, Kobe should never, ever be ranked higher than Shaq on any all time list.
Agree to disagree.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 03:44 PM
He's played with Shaq, Malone, Payton, Pau, Nash, Dwight, Bynum, Odom and Artest in his career, while being coached by Jackson. Do you realize the talent he's played with over the years?

lol. The Showtime Lakers had like 4 HOF'ers. The Celtics in that same era had just as many. Are you being serious?

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 03:47 PM
lol. The Showtime Lakers had like 4 HOF'ers. The Celtics in that same era had just as many. Are you being serious?

WTF does that have to do with Shaq?

Baller1
11-05-2012, 03:49 PM
No you don't ignore the help he has had, but if that is the case, why is Bill Russell in the top 5 all time? Look at the team he played on.. What about Larry Bird's Celtics? What about the Showtime Lakers? (Magic played with THE greatest center of all time) If Kobe gets this criticism, other players should as well.. And I'm not saying you personally don't argue the same for Bill Russell, Magic and Bird, I'm just saying people should be consistent with this argument. And I can also say the same for Shaq, he never truly won without a good guard by his side.. Magic truly never won without Kareem, Kareem never won without a HOF guard either..



Well the individual awards argument defeats the purpose of the "team" winning argument..

I'll put it this way, Kobe played next to a dominant Center like Shaq from ages 21-23 while Shaq was in his prime, you can put 21-23 year old MJ on that 2000-2002 Lakers team and Shaq would have still won Finals MVP all three years, that doesn't mean MJ is not as good as a player because of it.. It just shows how dominant Shaq was those years..

Kobe didn't win more MVPs because he was on a bad team during his prime and the NBA gives MVP to top teams in the league's best player. And at the tail end of his prime, he won 2 more titles and won Finals MVP both years.. Just goes to show that if he had a great team from 2005-2008 prior to getting Gasol, he could have won more regular season and finals MVPs, but it is what it is..

And Kobe hasn't won DPOY is kind of a mystery to me, his peak defensive years was early on from 2000-2004, like I said, he didn't win, it is what it is..


Agree to disagree.

I'm in class right now, so I can't really give this post the response it deserves... But I'll say this:

The reason I bring up his help is to kind of backup my argument about his lack of individual accolades. Everyone who wins championships has a good team, there's no arguing against that. Therefore, trying to use championships as a basis for an argument regarding individual players is rather moot.

Having said that, Kobe is quite lacking in individual awards and that is why I feel he belongs outside the top 10.

Kobe2324
11-05-2012, 03:49 PM
I am seeing some crazy **** on here, their is players be compared to Kobe that are not even in the same class. T me only MJ is ahead of Kobe and I think that will stay that way, now with the said you can possibly argue a few names, you can still argue Wilt for a few more months untill kobe passes him on the scoring list, after that their is nothing left to compare, you can argue Shaq for maybe another year tops, i believe he has surpassed him already but one more title or mvp or finals mvp really removes Shaq from this convo, Nobody other than Jordan has the Resume that Kobe has, and just because he didnt win more MVP's is not because he wasnt the best player in the league, its was just due to poor team record just like the year Nash robbed him (not nash's fault) I just fail to see where Kobe does not surpass everyone but Jordan...

dh144498
11-05-2012, 03:53 PM
oh look... it's this thread again.... I wonder whose sock puppet account the OP belongs to.

Swashcuff
11-05-2012, 03:57 PM
I am seeing some crazy **** on here, their is players be compared to Kobe that are not even in the same class. T me only MJ is ahead of Kobe and I think that will stay that way, now with the said you can possibly argue a few names, you can still argue Wilt for a few more months untill kobe passes him on the scoring list, after that their is nothing left to compare, you can argue Shaq for maybe another year tops, i believe he has surpassed him already but one more title or mvp or finals mvp really removes Shaq from this convo, Nobody other than Jordan has the Resume that Kobe has, and just because he didnt win more MVP's is not because he wasnt the best player in the league, its was just due to poor team record just like the year Nash robbed him (not nash's fault) I just fail to see where Kobe does not surpass everyone but Jordan...

Kareem and Russell are rolling over laughing at this statement.

Money_23
11-05-2012, 04:13 PM
It's not illogical at all.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 04:50 PM
WTF does that have to do with Shaq?

Im not talking to you

CavaliersFTW
11-05-2012, 04:57 PM
There is no way he should be higher than 9 on any all time list, great player and all but the accolades aren't enough to propell him over shaq or Duncan to be honest

5 rings but only 2 finals Mvp? That means that only on 2 runs was he the man. And have you seen the lakers from 00-04's record without shaq (while shaq was injured) versus without kobe (when kobe was injured and shaq was in)

Someone should pull those figgas up, shaq has a better record without kobe during that period than kobe does without shaq

I'm not saying kobe is overated, but it's illogical to say this man is better than Shaq or Duncan while he only has 2 finals Mvp

It's foolish to be a man called Frank

All those stats are cute and all but at the end of the day, finals Mvp is the most important accolade when discussing GOAT players

By my account, Chamberlin shouldn't be in the top 5 or anywhere near there, a man that dominant with only 1 ring considered better than shaq? Please

There has to be a correlation between rings, and stats my ****** on that real

And kobe has a nice resume, but his record on the lakers when shaq was injured vs shaqs record while kobe was injured was the final straw for me

Kobe was a terrific 2nd option and a good first option but was never really 'the man'

And the teams He beat? The Orlando Magic who made it to the finals because my ***** garnet was injured and going 1-1 against the celtics doesn't make him a top 8 player homie

On that real
. What yall think?

Might want to do a little more research on Chamberlain

B'sCeltsPatsSox
11-05-2012, 04:58 PM
This thread went the way I knew it would go. Even the "I'm a Lakers fan so I watch them play all the time." So because we're not Lakers fans means we don't watch them a lot? Cute.

Anyways I've got Kobe at around 10th or 11th.

TheIlladelph16
11-05-2012, 05:00 PM
One thing you can always count on with PSD: The weekly Kobe All-Time Ranking/Kobe v. Lebron/Wade threads.

*Sits back and enjoys some popcorn*

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 05:01 PM
This thread went the way I knew it would go. Even the "I'm a Lakers fan so I watch them play all the time." So because we're not Lakers fans means we don't watch them a lot? Cute.

Anyways I've got Kobe at around 10th or 11th.

Exactly what that means

Shlumpledink
11-05-2012, 05:01 PM
All time lists are just fun to talk about. There is a lot of criteria. I personally think that Hakeem is underrated, and should be higher up. I shudder to think what would have happened if ralph sampson never got hurt. Him and Hakeem would be higher up on the all time lists. Hakeem played on some crappy teams. He had players either before or after their primes.

I think Duncan is overrated. He won a lot, but he had a lot of help. He's a phenomenal player. I don't rate him in the top 10 though. He's top 15 maybe.

I think scottie pippen is underrated. He had tremendous basketball acumen, and longevity. He played all-time great defense, and was able to lead many offenses at the point of attack and guard 4 positions at an elite level.

Kareem is underrated, he is usually listed under russell, wilt, and sometimes shaq. I think thats unfair. Kareem changed the game, and he was a very underrated defender. He had phenomenal footwork and blocked a ton of shots. Put Kareem on those russell teams and they win just as many championships, if not more.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
11-05-2012, 05:06 PM
Exactly what that means

So lets say someone who's not a Lakers fan watches every Lakers games and disagrees with you, what would be your excuse? All of us in here have watched a pretty good amount of Lakers games to determine how good Kobe is. It isn't like the Lakers are the T-Wolves and they never make it on national TV, it's the ****ing Lakers so they're on national TV, a lot.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 05:08 PM
So lets say someone who's not a Lakers fan watches every Lakers games and disagrees with you, what would be your excuse? All of us in here have watched a pretty good amount of Lakers games to determine how good Kobe is. It isn't like the Lakers are the T-Wolves and they never make it on national TV, it's the ****ing Lakers so they're on national TV, a lot.

I think mostly "big" games are televised on TNT, espn, NBC, etc. Someone in north dakota surely isnt watching Lakers VS. Milwauke....

ManRam
11-05-2012, 05:10 PM
It's not illogical at all. He's fringe top-9 on my list...but we don't all value the same things. He is going to finish his career with a lot of longevity-related accolades and perhaps even records. If you look at those things (like all time points, all time minutes, team success, etc.) then yeah, it's logical to put him in the top-9. But if you look at other things, like comparing him to his peers as compared to other greats vs. their peers, then maybe he doesn't look like a top-10 player. For example, you could say "how could someone who was never the clear best player in the league be a top 9 player of all-time?"

But it's certainly not illogical to say he's a top 9 player. Love him or hate him, there is a case to be made.

abe_froman
11-05-2012, 05:11 PM
For example, you could say "how could someone who was never the clear best player in the league be a top 9 player of all-time?"
.
but you can say that for everyone in the top 10 except mj and kareem

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 05:11 PM
It's not illogical at all. He's fringe top-9 on my list...but we don't all value the same things. He is going to finish his career with a lot of longevity-related accolades and perhaps even records. If you look at those things (like all time points, all time minutes, team success, etc.) then yeah, it's logical to put him in the top-9. But if you look at other things, like comparing him to his peers as compared to other greats vs. their peers, then maybe he doesn't look like a top-10 player. For example, you could say "how could someone who was never the clear best player in the league be a top 9 player of all-time?"

But it's certainly not illogical to say he's a top 9 player. Love him or hate him, there is a case to be made.

This is the new catch phrase i guess.

TheIlladelph16
11-05-2012, 05:17 PM
This is the new catch phrase i guess.

It's a valid point though. Even his MVP season it was debatable just like when he had a case to win it over Nash in 06 or 07 (I forget which at the moment). There was never really a clear-cut season where he was the consensus #1 player.

nickdymez
11-05-2012, 05:19 PM
It's a valid point though. Even his MVP season it was debatable just like when he had a case to win it over Nash in 06 or 07 (I forget which at the moment). There was never really a clear-cut season where he was the consensus #1 player.

I can say that every year. There is never a clear cut player in the league unless his name was Micheal. There is a debate every year about that. Whats the criteria?

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 05:19 PM
You always go on these essay type rants with your same points... I skipped straight to the very end to this... People including myself have answered this for you yet you seem to not comprehend it...
1) Kobe was the first class of High school players to come into the NBA. Head coaches weren't giving them the benefit of the doubt to take over a starting spot over veterans.
2) Kobe stepped into an already stacked team
3) I cant believe you are judging where you rank kobe all time based on him coming off the bench as a rookie. Why not take it a step further into the high school career of all-time greats?? oh wait, Jordan didnt make his basketball team one year... We shouldnt make him #1 all time than right? yes thats sarcasm btw

Now is a essay type rant better than a 1-2 word reply? like saying you're a 'hater' or 'troll' is less substance than an essay right?

1.you guys suck so much of his dick you seem to believe he was the first 'class' of highschoolers, then you say coaches werent giving 'them' benefits of the doubt,really? NEWSFLASH: in the sports world all 'tru' franchise players are giving the benefit of the doubt.....so are you finally seeing the light that he was a 'developing' player, you know a 'backupguard turned starter''

Many players know that Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett skipped high school to enter the NBA Draft and some might even know about Darryl Dawkins and Moses Malone. The first player to enter skip high school for the NBA though was Reggie Harding way back in 1962. Reggie Harding was drafted in the fourth round of the 1962 Draft by the Detroit Pistons although he did sit out a year and didn't play until 1963-64.

After Reggie Harding came some of the other players that are well known for skipping high school and entering the NBA draft. Which player came next is kind of a debate. Technically Darryl Dawkins was the next player that skipped high school and was drafted into the NBA. Darryl Dawkins was traded by the Philadelphia 76ers in the first round of the 1975 draft. Also in that draft Bill Willoughby skipped high school and was drafted by the Atlanta Hawks. Moses Malone actually finished high school first and started playing pro basketball before Darryl Dawkins but he was first drafted in the ABA in 1974 and then was chosen by the Portland Trail Blazers in the 1976 ABA Dispersal Draft.

After Darryl Dawkins and Bill Willoughby it would be another 20 years before a player would skip high school to enter the NBA Draft. In 1995 Kevin Garnett entered the NBA Draft and was selected 5th overall by the Minnesota Timberwolves. Many believed that a high school player was not emotionally or physically capable of playing in the NBA but Kevin Garnett quickly became an All-Star and took the Minnesota Timberwolves to 8 consecutive playoff berths before being traded to the Boston Celtics and winning his first NBA title.

Kevin Garnett turned out to be a trend setter because at least one player would skip high school for the NBA Draft every year from 1995 to 2005. In 1996 there were two players that skipped high school for the NBA and they both turned out pretty successful. Kobe Bryant was drafted by the Charlotte Hornets and then traded to the Los Angeles Lakers and Jermaine O'Neal was drafted by the Indiana Pacers.

In 1997 there was only one player that entered in the NBA Draft directly out of high school and it was another successful jump. Tracy McGrady might be injury prone now and he's yet to win a playoff series but he's still has a very good NBA career.

The 1998 NBA Draft featured another couple of good NBA players to come straight from high school. They're not Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant but Al Harrington and Rashard Lewis have been good NBA players. There was another third player that skipped college for the NBA Draft in 1998 named Korleone Young that never panned out.

Through 1998 high school players that skipped the NBA Draft were having a lot of success because it was actually the very best players making the jump. Unfortunately it was only a matter of time before young kids would be manipulated into thinking they were capable of making it in the NBA draft when they weren't. In 1999 Leon Smith and Jonathan Bender skipped college and entered the NBA Draft. Bender played for a short time, never averaging more than 7.4 points per game.

In 2000 Darius Miles and DeShawn Stevenson were both heavily hyped and made the jump from high school to the NBA. I suppose 2000 was not a bad year because both players have NBA careers and have multiple double digit scoring seasons but neither one turned out to be the superstar they were supposed to be either.

In 2001 is when the high school players skipped in the NBA Draft starts to get out of hand. The 2001 class consisted of Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry and DeSagana Diop. All four players are still in the league but all of them are varying degrees of busts and their teams got rid of them. The Chicago Bulls brought both Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry home on draft day.

The 2002 NBA Draft produced Amare Stoudamire straight out of high school. Amare Stoudamire has been a good NBA player for several years so he panned out, but this was just a short break before a long line of more busts..

The 2003 NBA Draft produced one of the greatest NBA Players of all-time. He came to the NBA just out of high school and began to dominate. He's one of the most complete players in the league. Of course I'm talking about Ndudi Ebi. No, I'm just kidding. Lebron James is another high school to NBA success story but in 2003 there was also Ndudi Ebi, Travis Outlaw, Kendrick Perkins and James Lang. None of who should have declared for the NBA Draft out of high school.

The 2004 NBA Draft gave us high school players Dwight Howard, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson and Shaun Livingston. All four have played well in the NBA but only Dwight Howard was an immediate impact. Josh Smith and Al Jefferson certainly aren't busts but it took them a few years each to get accumulated and might have done them a lot of good to go to college. There were plenty of busts in 2004 though including Dorell Wright, J. R. Smith, Sebastian Telfair and Robert Swift.

The new rule that wouldn't allow high school players to be drafted was decided in 2005 but didn't take effect until 2006. Clearly the rule was a good one because the 2005 NBA Draft have a record high 9 high school players drafted and only two of them had any kind of success. Andrew Bynum and Monta Ellis are pretty good players but the 2005 NBA Draft class also includes Louis Williams, Adray Blatche, Rickey Sanchez, Martell Webster, Gerald Green, Amir Johnson and C. J. Miles.

2. Once again you nuthuggers fail to realize KOBE demanded he go to this stacked 56win team....why in the **** if im comparing my game/persona to JORDAN that i go to a 'stacked' team to be the 4th guard(JONES/SCOTT/VANEXEL) and ride the pine for yrs if i cant 'prove' myself day1 in training camp, thats how its done right? like i said, a backup guard who developed into a good player, wow never been done in nba history

3. it wasnt his roookie yr or 2nd or 3rd, im basing it off of 'game', no franchise player rides the bench, thats the reason why im bringing it up because its how you rank a player....you dont wait until it fits you to bring up a players best 5yr stretch, talk about the entire body of work

but you guys always say since 2000 this and that...well yeah thats the 1st yr he started, where was he at those other yrs? you are what you are after 3yrs in the bigleagues....why should i judge KOBE any diff, his career is like the JETER of NBA, nothin more nothin less

where do you rank JETER alltime in MLB history? same way i view KOBE, good players in overhyped markets who got 5rings apiece, and not for 1second is JETER better than a GRIFFEY/BONDS/PUJOLS who all have a whopping 2 rings total compared to 5

JORDAN got cut in highschool as underclassman trying to make Varsity or no? so he should have sat his *** down just like KOBE should have went to DUKE and 'developed'.....so you're comparing a 28ppg rookie to a 7ppg type, and to make it even worse you're bringing up JORDANs highschool yrs, im speaking on KOBE's NBA yrs....reaching for straws

thats why i can tell none of you guys ever played the game because all i over hear is KOBE work ethic is so out of this world...NEWSFLASH: if you're not the most physically gifted ''PLUS'' you're backing up 3guard or forwards or centers and you compare yourself to JORDAN/AI or a BRON/BIRD or a ALCINDOR/SHAQ then you would have to work work work and be a lifetime gym rat(just like his new backcourt mate who was a backupguard turned allstar/ gym rat)...why is that so hard to put in perspective?

you judge a players career from day1....not yr4 or yr 10 like you KOBEfiens do for him because he rode the pine

how in the **** do you ride the pine in your youth/springchicken and you're so ****ing great based on 'game', i get it, he came strait out of highschool(and picked his destination to ride the pine, but i guess being a frontrunner winner makes up for it)

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 05:33 PM
The 2003 NBA Draft produced one of the greatest NBA Players of all-time. He came to the NBA just out of high school and began to dominate.


THATS HOW I RANK A INDIVIDUAL PLAYER FROM DAY1, JUS A SMALL EXAMPLE,BUT A DAMN STRONG ONE, READ CAREFULLY

now a tru top 10 starts from day1 and it usually last 10-12yrs strong, not developing for 4yrs then dominating for 3-5yr stretch and being good for a decade doesnt garner top 10 game/impact player

i couldnt imagine another player starting on allstar teams but not for his reg. season and being a 'superstar',unless you count GINOBILI/SCHREMPF/R.PIERCE...and last i checked when did they ever get the title 'superstar'? they all had a nice game but even 5 rings wouldnt put them in top 30 ever, or would it? educate me because according to you i say same thing over and over

kind of like your weak JORDAN getting cut in highschool compared to KOBE's first 3nba yrs on the bench.....wow

LAKERMANIA
11-05-2012, 05:35 PM
It's not illogical at all. He's fringe top-9 on my list...but we don't all value the same things. He is going to finish his career with a lot of longevity-related accolades and perhaps even records. If you look at those things (like all time points, all time minutes, team success, etc.) then yeah, it's logical to put him in the top-9. But if you look at other things, like comparing him to his peers as compared to other greats vs. their peers, then maybe he doesn't look like a top-10 player. For example, you could say "how could someone who was never the clear best player in the league be a top 9 player of all-time?"

But it's certainly not illogical to say he's a top 9 player. Love him or hate him, there is a case to be made.

I agree, in the end the top 10 list outside of a few players is all subjective..

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 05:41 PM
sigh.. people in this board will post anything just to make their point across. seriously the amount of quality posts here are really missing. too many trolls and blind haters across this board.

mngopher35
11-05-2012, 05:48 PM
I have Kobe about 8th on my all time list, and I think its pretty logical. He has had some insane longevity and although I agree with people you can argue he has never been the best, he has also been a top 3-5 player in the league for a very very long time. That said I think Shaq should definitely be ranked higher.

Baller1
11-05-2012, 05:50 PM
I can say that every year. There is never a clear cut player in the league unless his name was Micheal. There is a debate every year about that. Whats the criteria?

Excuse me? I'd love to hear an argument for someone other than Lebron being the clear cut best player in the NBA for the last 3-5 years...

There isn't one, specifically the past few seasons. Lebron is clear-cut, no questions asked the best player in the game today.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 05:52 PM
The 2003 NBA Draft produced one of the greatest NBA Players of all-time. He came to the NBA just out of high school and began to dominate.


THATS HOW I RANK A INDIVIDUAL PLAYER FROM DAY1, JUS A SMALL EXAMPLE,BUT A DAMN STRONG ONE, READ CAREFULLY

now a tru top 10 starts from day1 and it usually last 10-12yrs strong, not developing for 4yrs then dominating for 3-5yr stretch and being good for a decade doesnt garner top 10 game/impact player

i couldnt imagine another player starting on allstar teams but not for his reg. season and being a 'superstar',unless you count GINOBILI/SCHREMPF/R.PIERCE...and last i checked when did they ever get the title 'superstar'? they all had a nice game but even 5 rings wouldnt put them in top 30 ever, or would it? educate me because according to you i say same thing over and over

kind of like your weak JORDAN getting cut in highschool compared to KOBE's first 3nba yrs on the bench.....wow

1K posts of this crap?


jajajajajajajajajajajjjajajajajajjajajajajajajaja


You are as incoherent as one can get.

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 05:56 PM
this is such a troll thread to begin with. lol guys like andrew32 etc love thread's like this so they can spew there hate against kobe and will try to diminish kobe's legacy as much as they could. im not even the biggest kobe fan but, some people here are putting stockton? barkley? garnett?! and the likes ahead of him all time? thats just laughable and plain ignorant. kobe has a case anywhere from 6-9. it's debatable and i'll leave it at that. top ten all time greats have won championships with great teams, and have their own individual accolades.

some people will throw that he has had more help than anyone? yeah sure, the 04 pistons malone and payton werent in their prime. nash isnt in his prime now as well as gasol, metta and maybe even kobe himself. only dwight is in his prime in that team.

now tell me which top 10 all time great didnt have help. jordan didnt have help? russell didnt have help? (look at that 60's celtics team) LOL! magic didnt? kareem? duncan? even LEBRON has wade and bosh and a loaded roster! he never won till he got to join another superstar and allstar and look at their roster now!

you people are ridiculous with your reasons and biased opinions against kobe. it's ok if you dont like him as a player/person, but to diminish and belittle his achievements is just blasphemous and plain ignorant on your part. thats just blind hate right there. please get the *** out of here.


oh and to those who say he wasnt the best player at any given time throughout the last decade, im sorry but he was arguably the best player on 05' 06' 07' 08'. nash had better teams in 05 and 06 with better records. but kobe was better in both those years. dirk had a better team as well in 07 and had the best regular season team that year. a case for kobe could be made that year. and in 08 he definitely deserved the award. i mean, come on now, he had the stats and the team record to go with it. it's just plain stupid to even argue against it.

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 05:59 PM
All championship squads or annually contenders have go getters, thats not what im searching for

now go get JORDAN/BRON/ALCINDOR/DUNCAN/MAGIC and whoever rounds out your top and ask yourself why didnt they ride the bench they first 3yrs but still started on allstar teams? that aint what you call hype? or do you call that 'game'?

now fallback from him being your fav player or LA being your fav team(even if they not just follow me), and admit that if this happened to another player from another team would you not at least laugh a lil bit

a backupguard starting as an allstar, that media hollywood market is incredible to say the least

05 and 06 and 07 and 08 were like his 9-12th seasons....a 'incredible' player of his caliber shouldnt have to wait that long in his career to seek claim for that or no? shouldnt that happen in his first 3yrs? or was he developing to get to that 06 level? or was he that good from day1 and the lakers GM/COACH just sat on they hands? im just curious because we are talking about LA where its all about championships/playing best players right?


all im really trying to figure out is what did he do from his 7ppg rookie(30pts in rookiegame) any diff. from his breakout 2003(7th yr) besides play more minutes and develop? he didnt do anything different,nothing spectacular(since he poorly copied JORDAN)...like i said a bunch of mediahype(rings), and that 81pt game was legit,no matter who he was torching(raptors)....and to top it off, when he was doing his crazy scoring with a couple scoring titles, they won like a avg of 40games for that postDIESEL era 05-07

to me hes the ultimate frontrunner and only wants to be in comfy/winnable situations...sometimes you have to be like JORDAN/AI/BRON and face the music and get drafted by a 18-20 win bottom feeder...not sissy your way to a 56stacked squad, only to ride the bench but make allstar game based off a dunk contest, or no?

he had his AI/BRON moments for that 3yr stretch and also blew a 3-1 series lead with KWAME/SMUSH against that 'greatest show on hardwood' NASH led PHX squad, now ? is how in the **** did KOBE not get T'MAC'ed for that(recall that 3-1 DET series)...

LAKERMANIA
11-05-2012, 06:03 PM
All championship squads or annually contenders have go getters, thats not what im searching for

now go get JORDAN/BRON/ALCINDOR/DUNCAN/MAGIC and whoever rounds out your top and ask yourself why didnt they ride the bench they first 3yrs but still started on allstar teams? that aint what you call hype? or do you call that 'game'?

now fallback from him being your fav player or LA being your fav team(even if they not just follow me), and admit that if this happened to another player from another team would you not at least laugh a lil bit

a backupguard starting as an allstar, that media hollywood market is incredible to say the least

05 and 06 and 07 and 08 were like his 9-12th seasons....a 'incredible' player of his caliber shouldnt have to wait that long in his career to seek claim for that or no? shouldnt that happen in his first 3yrs? or was he developing to get to that 06 level? or was he that good from day1 and the lakers GM/COACH just sat on they hands? im just curious because we are talking about LA where its all about championships/playing best players right?

Translation?

ManRam
11-05-2012, 06:06 PM
but you can say that for everyone in the top 10 except mj and kareem

No. Not really.

I'll say it was pretty obvious that Bird was the best player in the NBA from 83-84 to 85-86. If not for all three years, at least a couple of them.

I'll say it was pretty obvious that Wilt was the best player in the NBA from 65-66 to 67-68, and probably a few times before and maybe one time after.

I'll say it was pretty obvious that LeBron James has been the best player in the NBA for at least the past two seasons, and probably for 3-5 years now.

Bill Russell was the obvious best player in the NBA numerous times. Tim Duncan probably was for at least the 01-02 season and the 02-03 season, if not more. Moses was the best player in the NBA for multiple years. Magic was as well.

Shaq was better compared to his peers than Kobe in the height of their primes.

Probably a few others.

I'm not saying this is how I judge it, but I do think it matters. I have laid out my case plenty of times before as to why I don't think Kobe was ever the best player in the NBA for a single season. He's been top 3-5 longer than just about anyone else ever....but I don't think he was ever the best, or at least the consensus best. Even when he won his one MVP, he wasn't the best individual player that season.

I was really just trying to illuminate how there are multiple, if not countless, ways to approach all-time lists.

amos1er
11-05-2012, 06:09 PM
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Russell
7. Kobe
8. Bird
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 06:11 PM
All championship squads or annually contenders have go getters, thats not what im searching for

now go get JORDAN/BRON/ALCINDOR/DUNCAN/MAGIC and whoever rounds out your top and ask yourself why didnt they ride the bench they first 3yrs but still started on allstar teams? that aint what you call hype? or do you call that 'game'?

now fallback from him being your fav player or LA being your fav team(even if they not just follow me), and admit that if this happened to another player from another team would you not at least laugh a lil bit

a backupguard starting as an allstar, that media hollywood market is incredible to say the least

05 and 06 and 07 and 08 were like his 9-12th seasons....a 'incredible' player of his caliber shouldnt have to wait that long in his career to seek claim for that or no? shouldnt that happen in his first 3yrs? or was he developing to get to that 06 level? or was he that good from day1 and the lakers GM/COACH just sat on they hands? im just curious because we are talking about LA where its all about championships/playing best players right?


yes players start to enter their prime 4-5 or so years from the time they get drafted. kobe came out of highschool, so it would take him more time to get to his prime just like garnett and lebron did.

there were players currently in their prime and were the number 1 option on their teams from 00-04. see ai,shaq,garnett etc. kobe was a 2nd option, his development was slowed down being with shaq in his prime on those years. he cant really compete with them that time. garnett/ai/duncan were the number 1 option/leader for their respective teams so they had bigger and better seasons than bryant had. this is not an excuse, im just saying why it took him till 04-05 to rise to complete superstar status.

TheIlladelph16
11-05-2012, 06:12 PM
I can say that every year. There is never a clear cut player in the league unless his name was Micheal. There is a debate every year about that. Whats the criteria?

Yeah I completely disagree with this. Lebron last year was very clearly the best player in the league, by both advanced statistics and the eye test, whether people would want to admit that or not. Many years its subjective to a degree, but to say there is never a clear cut player in just false.

For the record, I disagree with the notion of this thread completely. I have Kobe sitting around 6-7 range all-time. Not sure how its illogical he could be higher than #9.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 06:17 PM
All championship squads or annually contenders have go getters, thats not what im searching for

now go get JORDAN/BRON/ALCINDOR/DUNCAN/MAGIC and whoever rounds out your top and ask yourself why didnt they ride the bench they first 3yrs but still started on allstar teams? that aint what you call hype? or do you call that 'game'?

now fallback from him being your fav player or LA being your fav team(even if they not just follow me), and admit that if this happened to another player from another team would you not at least laugh a lil bit

a backupguard starting as an allstar, that media hollywood market is incredible to say the least

05 and 06 and 07 and 08 were like his 9-12th seasons....a 'incredible' player of his caliber shouldnt have to wait that long in his career to seek claim for that or no? shouldnt that happen in his first 3yrs? or was he developing to get to that 06 level? or was he that good from day1 and the lakers GM/COACH just sat on they hands? im just curious because we are talking about LA where its all about championships/playing best players right?


all im really trying to figure out is what did he do from his 7ppg rookie(30pts in rookiegame) any diff. from his breakout 2003(7th yr) besides play more minutes and develop? he didnt do anything different,nothing spectacular(since he poorly copied JORDAN)...like i said a bunch of mediahype(rings), and that 81pt game was legit,no matter who he was torching(raptors)....and to top it off, when he was doing his crazy scoring with a couple scoring titles, they won like a avg of 40games for that postDIESEL era 05-07

to me hes the ultimate frontrunner and only wants to be in comfy/winnable situations...sometimes you have to be like JORDAN/AI/BRON and face the music and get drafted by a 18-20 win bottom feeder...not sissy your way to a 56stacked squad, only to ride the bench but make allstar game based off a dunk contest, or no?

he had his AI/BRON moments for that 3yr stretch and also blew a 3-1 series lead with KWAME/SMUSH against that 'greatest show on hardwood' NASH led PHX squad, now ? is how in the **** did KOBE not get T'MAC'ed for that(recall that 3-1 DET series)...
This is basically what you say in every one of your posts. Your posts lack originality and coherency.

ManRam
11-05-2012, 06:18 PM
Team success matters...I just try to be reasonable about it. You have to realize that not every player has the same odds of winning every year, and sometimes it's not even close. Sometimes, when counting championships, 3 is not greater than 2. It certainly gets a bit subjective, but it is common nonsensical to an extent; there are players who for the duration of their careers played with less talent around them than other players.

I do think there are players who have never won a ring that actually should be punished for that. The most obvious is Elgin Baylor who made it to 8 Finals, but never won. Sure, 1960s era Celtics might have been some of the best teams ever, but I think it is fair to knock him. Malone and Stockton too...although they had a similar problem with MJ. Sometimes you just run in to better teams.

Since we're talking about Kobe, I think that 5 rings does mean a lot, but I also think you have to realize that he's played with more talent than arguably anyone in this era. I don't think you can knock him at all for not being the best player on three of those teams, because arguably no one was better than Shaq was. And while he had great talent around him the next two times he won, he certainly was the hugest reason they did win.

Again, it's just the complexity. Yelling "FIVE RINGZ" at me is cool and all, but what does it REALLY mean? It could very well mean more than what some think, and less than what others do. There are a ton of variables to it.

amos1er
11-05-2012, 06:22 PM
yes players start to enter their prime 4-5 or so years from the time they get drafted. kobe came out of highschool, so it would take him more time to get to his prime just like garnett and lebron did.

there were players currently in their prime and were the number 1 option on their teams from 00-04. see ai,shaq,garnett etc. kobe was a 2nd option, his development was slowed down being with shaq in his prime on those years. he cant really compete with them that time. garnett/ai/duncan were the number 1 option/leader for their respective teams so they had bigger and better seasons than bryant had. this is not an excuse, im just saying why it took him till 04-05 to rise to complete superstar status.

I've explained this to him many times. It does no good. Better to just ignore his ignorance.

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 06:24 PM
I hear what your saying. I just choose to not really count players to much from those eras. But the whole "Kobe was never the best in league" is an arguable statement. I can quote countless analyst and former players that had Kobe the best in the league at some time in his carrer. People who say he wasnt are the ones that only look at box scores and pay no attention to his actual play on the court. Thats my opinion.
I've watched him play and played attention to his play on the court. I think he was top five for a long time and has been top 10 for more than a decade, but I do not think he was ever the best player in the league. Shaq and Duncan dominated most of his early career while Lebron (and possibly Wade, Paul and Howard to a lesser extent) dominated the second half.


No you don't ignore the help he has had, but if that is the case, why is Bill Russell in the top 5 all time? Look at the team he played on.. What about Larry Bird's Celtics? What about the Showtime Lakers? (Magic played with THE greatest center of all time) If Kobe gets this criticism, other players should as well.. And I'm not saying you personally don't argue the same for Bill Russell, Magic and Bird, I'm just saying people should be consistent with this argument. And I can also say the same for Shaq, he never truly won without a good guard by his side.. Magic truly never won without Kareem, Kareem never won without a HOF guard either..
I agree with this statement and I don't think it's necessarily to rip Kobe for winning titles with great players. I DO think it's fair to rip Kobe for being a No. 2 on his first three title teams compared to guys who were almost always No. 1 wins.


I'll put it this way, Kobe played next to a dominant Center like Shaq from ages 21-23 while Shaq was in his prime, you can put 21-23 year old MJ on that 2000-2002 Lakers team and Shaq would have still won Finals MVP all three years, that doesn't mean MJ is not as good as a player because of it.. It just shows how dominant Shaq was those years..
This is kind of unfair, because he was a rookie at age 21 compared to Kobe, who was in his fourth season. However, look at MJ's stats his third year and you'll see MJ was already ridiculous at that point.


Kobe didn't win more MVPs because he was on a bad team during his prime and the NBA gives MVP to top teams in the league's best player.
False. He didn't win the MVP because he wasn't the best player, and the only reason he won his one MVP was because he was on one of the league's best teams. He should have been the No. 4 guy in the MVP voting in 07-08. He could have won in 05-06, but he still wasn't the best player in the NBA then.


And Kobe hasn't won DPOY is kind of a mystery to me, his peak defensive years was early on from 2000-2004, like I said, he didn't win, it is what it is..
Kobe was a very good defensive player early in his career, but at no point was he deserving of that award, especially when you consider he played in an era of guys like Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard. Although he probably was never even the best perimeter in the NBA at any given time. Remember Bruce Bowen?

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 06:24 PM
Yeah I completely disagree with this. Lebron last year was very clearly the best player in the league, by both advanced statistics and the eye test, whether people would want to admit that or not. Many years its subjective to a degree, but to say there is never a clear cut player in just false.

For the record, I disagree with the notion of this thread completely. I have Kobe sitting around 6-7 range all-time. Not sure how its illogical he could be higher than #9.

i agree with this post. lebron has been the clear cut best player for the past 4 years now, although drose had a case the year he won mvp. i have kobe anywhere between 6-9 and im being flexible here due to the amount of haters on this board. lol

amos1er
11-05-2012, 06:26 PM
This is basically what you say in every one of your posts. Your posts lack originality and coherency.

He probably stabs his Kobe voodoo doll before he goes to bed every night. His hate is deep seeded. I have a theory that he is or is related to Kate Faber.

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 06:29 PM
This thread went the way I knew it would go. Even the "I'm a Lakers fan so I watch them play all the time." So because we're not Lakers fans means we don't watch them a lot? Cute.

Anyways I've got Kobe at around 10th or 11th.

This sexy man understands. ;)

bluefire7002
11-05-2012, 06:29 PM
All championship squads or annually contenders have go getters, thats not what im searching for

now go get JORDAN/BRON/ALCINDOR/DUNCAN/MAGIC and whoever rounds out your top and ask yourself why didnt they ride the bench they first 3yrs but still started on allstar teams? that aint what you call hype? or do you call that 'game'?

now fallback from him being your fav player or LA being your fav team(even if they not just follow me), and admit that if this happened to another player from another team would you not at least laugh a lil bit

a backupguard starting as an allstar, that media hollywood market is incredible to say the least

05 and 06 and 07 and 08 were like his 9-12th seasons....a 'incredible' player of his caliber shouldnt have to wait that long in his career to seek claim for that or no? shouldnt that happen in his first 3yrs? or was he developing to get to that 06 level? or was he that good from day1 and the lakers GM/COACH just sat on they hands? im just curious because we are talking about LA where its all about championships/playing best players right?


all im really trying to figure out is what did he do from his 7ppg rookie(30pts in rookiegame) any diff. from his breakout 2003(7th yr) besides play more minutes and develop? he didnt do anything different,nothing spectacular(since he poorly copied JORDAN)...like i said a bunch of mediahype(rings), and that 81pt game was legit,no matter who he was torching(raptors)....and to top it off, when he was doing his crazy scoring with a couple scoring titles, they won like a avg of 40games for that postDIESEL era 05-07

to me hes the ultimate frontrunner and only wants to be in comfy/winnable situations...sometimes you have to be like JORDAN/AI/BRON and face the music and get drafted by a 18-20 win bottom feeder...not sissy your way to a 56stacked squad, only to ride the bench but make allstar game based off a dunk contest, or no?

he had his AI/BRON moments for that 3yr stretch and also blew a 3-1 series lead with KWAME/SMUSH against that 'greatest show on hardwood' NASH led PHX squad, now ? is how in the **** did KOBE not get T'MAC'ed for that(recall that 3-1 DET series)...

Im really curious what you have Kobe ranked all time?? Again your argument is the fact he made the all-star team while being on the bench the first year... Did you see the Laker team that year?? Also Shaq was in his Prime, Kobe was overlooked (as well any High schooler should have when you got a Prime shaq just acquired). Kobe was also playing behind Eddie Jones, He was pretty good as well. If you dont see how this slowed down Kobe's development the first year than I dont know what to tell you. If he was drafted into a last place team that year, Im sure he would be given a bigger role and that team and im sure he would put up decent numbers. However, it shouldn't be made an excuse to rank him lower. and NO he's not hype.

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 06:33 PM
Translation?

First part i was replying to earlier post who said JORDAN had this help and KAREEM had this help


how can you be a top(or near it) NBA player in your 9th or 10th or 12th season but not in your first 4yrs(see MAGIC/WILT/ALCINDOR/BIRD/JORDAN/SHAQ/AI/BARKLEY/BRON/MELO/CP3/ZEKE/BOTH MALONES? When i think of a alltime top 5-10 ever in NBA, i dont feel comfy putting a backupguard/center/forward turned starter on there...but what do i know about sports, i never played before


thats the sad part about this

all you KOBEfiens have/had no clue he was a backupguard or probably have never played to understand a ranking of a players actual 'game'


so its like all you need translation




The 2003 NBA Draft produced one of the greatest NBA Players of all-time. He came to the NBA just out of high school and began to dominate


Now if that would have said the '1996' NBA Draft instead of 2003 then i would be saying the same thing for KOBE and talking about how he did it from day1, not yr 4, he should have went to college for 3-4yrs like i said earlier to 'develop' his 'game'

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 06:33 PM
What is KOBEfiens? :laugh2:

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 06:34 PM
False. He didn't win the MVP because he wasn't the best player, and the only reason he won his one MVP was because he was on one of the league's best teams. He should have been the No. 4 guy in the MVP voting in 07-08. He could have won in 05-06, but he still wasn't the best player in the NBA then.

FALSE! he didnt win becoz he was on a bad team! they judge it not only by stats but on your team's standing as well. are you kidding me? how can u even argue against this? this has been how the nba has decided mvps for a long time now. find me an mvp that didnt have their team in the top 3 best teams in the league. he was arguably the best player from 05-08. 05 06 07 he had bad teams and a bad team record! and in 08, come on now are you serious? he had the stats AND team record to go with it that year. he deserved it!

Baller1
11-05-2012, 06:36 PM
I've watched him play and played attention to his play on the court. I think he was top five for a long time and has been top 10 for more than a decade, but I do not think he was ever the best player in the league. Shaq and Duncan dominated most of his early career while Lebron (and possibly Wade, Paul and Howard to a lesser extent) dominated the second half.


I agree with this statement and I don't think it's necessarily to rip Kobe for winning titles with great players. I DO think it's fair to rip Kobe for being a No. 2 on his first three title teams compared to guys who were almost always No. 1 wins.


This is kind of unfair, because he was a rookie at age 21 compared to Kobe, who was in his fourth season. However, look at MJ's stats his third year and you'll see MJ was already ridiculous at that point.


False. He didn't win the MVP because he wasn't the best player, and the only reason he won his one MVP was because he was on one of the league's best teams. He should have been the No. 4 guy in the MVP voting in 07-08. He could have won in 05-06, but he still wasn't the best player in the NBA then.


Kobe was a very good defensive player early in his career, but at no point was he deserving of that award, especially when you consider he played in an era of guys like Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard. Although he probably was never even the best perimeter in the NBA at any given time. Remember Bruce Bowen?

MBT wins again.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 06:36 PM
I don't know why after reading this thread, I have a sudden strange urge of eating some mashed potatoes while riding a motorboat.

amos1er
11-05-2012, 06:39 PM
FALSE! he didnt win becoz he was on a bad team! they judge it not only by stats but on your team's standing as well. are you kidding me? how can u even argue against this? this has been how the nba has decided mvps for a long time now. find me an mvp that didnt have their team in the top 3 best teams in the league. he was arguably the best player from 05-08. 05 06 07 he had bad teams and a bad team record! and in 08, come on now are you serious? he had the stats AND team record to go with it that year. he deserved it!

I feel Kobe was the best in the league from 06-10. As far as that lame little CP3 deserved the MVP in 2008 argument...:facepalm:

amos1er
11-05-2012, 06:43 PM
MBT wins again.

Maybe in the world of the "Kobe Haters" he wins, but in the world of the rational thinkers, he is seen for what he is...a typical jealous Kobe hater who is incapable of giving the man his due.

Baller1
11-05-2012, 06:44 PM
Maybe in the world of the "Kobe Haters" he wins, but in the world of the rational thinkers, he is seen for what he is...a typical jealous Kobe hater who is incapable of giving the man his due.

You didn't just say Kobe homers are rational thinkers, did you? Rational Kobe fans are few and far between.

bluefire7002
11-05-2012, 06:45 PM
What is KOBEfiens? :laugh2:

haha exactly what I was wondering.

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 06:46 PM
I agree with this statement and I don't think it's necessarily to rip Kobe for winning titles with great players. I DO think it's fair to rip Kobe for being a No. 2 on his first three title teams compared to guys who were almost always No. 1 wins.

so it's ok to rip kareem for MOST of his titles? it's ok to rip duncan for his 4 title? shaq for his 4th title? lets also rip russell to some of his titles as well? see what i did there? i know right!

amos1er
11-05-2012, 06:48 PM
You didn't just say Kobe homers are rational thinkers, did you? Rational Kobe fans are few and far between.

Don't put words in my mouth. I only said that his little rant would be laughed at by any rational thinker. When I hear someone saying that Kobe didn't deserve MVP in 2008, I can no longer take them seriously.

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 06:48 PM
yes players start to enter their prime 4-5 or so years from the time they get drafted. kobe came out of highschool, so it would take him more time to get to his prime just like garnett and lebron did.

there were players currently in their prime and were the number 1 option on their teams from 00-04. see ai,shaq,garnett etc. kobe was a 2nd option, his development was slowed down being with shaq in his prime on those years. he cant really compete with them that time. garnett/ai/duncan were the number 1 option/leader for their respective teams so they had bigger and better seasons than bryant had. this is not an excuse, im just saying why it took him till 04-05 to rise to complete superstar status.

Then go to college so i wont have to dissect it fairly, i cant say he came straight out of highschool so he had to take time when i saw BRON drop 21/6/6 as a rookie, AMARE come straight out and play C/PF ....

i always hear it was SHAQ slowing him, how? DIESEL was a lowpost C, KOBE was being slowed by SCOTT/VANEXEL/JONES...he was a developing player,damn you guys are funny.....if BRON/AI go on that 8yr run with DIESEL, they would have been day1 1a options, they were equal with SHAQ 'gamewise/boxoffice', SHAQ was just the leader/older player, AI would have had a field day dropping oops to DIESEL

04-05? thats 9yrs into a career, after yr 1-3(even in college i can tell) i've had all i need to see to analyze your actual 'game', winning rings puts no credit to your actual bball game... i get it now, hes the closest to JORDAN so he has to be no lower than 10 since the original JORDAN is the media GOAT right?

LAKERMANIA
11-05-2012, 06:52 PM
This is kind of unfair, because he was a rookie at age 21 compared to Kobe, who was in his fourth season. However, look at MJ's stats his third year and you'll see MJ was already ridiculous at that point.
My point was no matter how ridiculous MJ was at that point, Shaq would have still won all 3 finals MVPs... Shaq was just too much during that span.. But my overall point was even if that were the case, a player shouldn't be looked down at just because they played with a more polarizing player..



False. He didn't win the MVP because he wasn't the best player,
Not true. The NBA awards the MVP to the best team's best player.. The Lakers had an MVP type player but on a bad team.. Hence, he doesn't have many MVPs.

and the only reason he won his one MVP was because he was on one of the league's best teams. He should have been the No. 4 guy in the MVP voting in 07-08. He could have won in 05-06, but he still wasn't the best player in the NBA then.

That's exactly my point. The MVP doesn't always go to the best player in the league, it goes to the best team's best player. So regular season MVPs in the modern era isn't really much of an accolade to rely on when determining top 10 GOAT list.



Kobe was a very good defensive player early in his career, but at no point was he deserving of that award, especially when you consider he played in an era of guys like Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard. Although he probably was never even the best perimeter in the NBA at any given time. Remember Bruce Bowen?
I agree with this, but the DPOY, like the MVP doesn't always go to that year's best defender..

felixng2012
11-05-2012, 06:53 PM
FALSE! he didnt win becoz he was on a bad team! they judge it not only by stats but on your team's standing as well. are you kidding me? how can u even argue against this? this has been how the nba has decided mvps for a long time now. find me an mvp that didnt have their team in the top 3 best teams in the league. he was arguably the best player from 05-08. 05 06 07 he had bad teams and a bad team record! and in 08, come on now are you serious? he had the stats AND team record to go with it that year. he deserved it!
Kobe was never the clear cut number 1 player in 05-08 and in 08 CP3 had a better season and managed to get 2nd seed in the West with a fairly mediocre team.

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 06:53 PM
I feel Kobe was the best in the league from 06-10. As far as that lame little CP3 deserved the MVP in 2008 argument...:facepalm:

he was the clear cut best from 05-08. he may have a case or was right there with lebron in 09. but '10 was all lebron.

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 06:53 PM
Im really curious what you have Kobe ranked all time?? Again your argument is the fact he made the all-star team while being on the bench the first year... Did you see the Laker team that year?? Also Shaq was in his Prime, Kobe was overlooked (as well any High schooler should have when you got a Prime shaq just acquired). Kobe was also playing behind Eddie Jones, He was pretty good as well. If you dont see how this slowed down Kobe's development the first year than I dont know what to tell you. If he was drafted into a last place team that year, Im sure he would be given a bigger role and that team and im sure he would put up decent numbers. However, it shouldn't be made an excuse to rank him lower. and NO he's not hype.


So a 15ppg allstar shooting guard doesnt start for his regular season team? JONES was just a good player, not HOF caliber worthy? how was he overlooked when he went in lottery at 13? and he could have went as high as 1 when sixers worked him out last attempt to land hometown kid(but AI workout blew their minds)

he could have got drafted to a last place or bottom feeder(NETS,HORNETS), so obviously KOBE saw the team because he handpicked his way there, you mean to tell me that a player would pick his own team to ride the bench? and it wasnt his first yr, he avg 7,15,19ppg his first 3, allstar numbers or developing player numbers? c'mon even you KOBEfiens cant deny that

so like i said he chose to go to a team to backup other 'good' players....or where they allnba annual type? cause then i wouuld give him a pass, but not for backin up JONES/EXEL/SCOTT

thats funny talk

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 06:54 PM
Did I just read that Eddie Jones is HOF caliber worthy?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?

:speechless:

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 06:56 PM
1K posts of this crap?


jajajajajajajajajajajjjajajajajajjajajajajajajaja


You are as incoherent as one can get.

Its what happens when the 'truth' stays the same

so its always going to sound the same

all i hear is 5rings, talk about a bunch of crap...really 5 rings? and just to think FISH has 5 and gets no LAKER love

its like you guys take his rings so serious but others are just for show, i get it now

im incoherent, now thats a 'bigtime' word with some bigtime 'game'

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 06:57 PM
Kobe was never the clear cut number 1 player in 05-08 and in 08 CP3 had a better season and managed to get 2nd seed in the West with a fairly mediocre team.

Mediocre team?

Are you saying the didn't have a above mediocre supporting cast?


David West made the all-star team that yr in 2008, and Tyson Chandler has always been a defensive beast, it's just that he didn't get recognition of being once after leading Dallas to the 2011 title and then playing in a big market the following yr in New York where media and fans really started appreciating him.


Who was CP throwing 4-5 lobs a game to at that time? The air???

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 06:58 PM
Its what happens when the 'truth' stays the same

so its always going to sound the same

all i hear is 5rings, talk about a bunch of crap...really 5 rings? and just to think FISH has 5 and gets no LAKER love

its like you guys take his rings so serious but others are just for show, i get it now

im incoherent, now thats a 'bigtime' word with some bigtime 'game'

Did you honestly just question my love for Derek Fisher?!?!?!?!?!?!?



Go to bed kid!

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 06:59 PM
Did I just read that Eddie Jones is HOF caliber worthy?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?

:speechless:



let me take a piece of psd's magnificent mind and asked

'are u trolling' troll?

So a 15ppg allstar shooting guard doesnt start for his regular season team? JONES was just a good player, not HOF caliber worthy?

so i just read from you that he is HOF caliber, you LAKERfiens are the illest of alltime, i mean that sincerely

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 07:00 PM
let me take a piece of psd's magnificent mind and asked

'are u trolling' troll?

So a 15ppg allstar shooting guard doesnt start for his regular season team? JONES was just a good player, not HOF caliber worthy?

so i just read from you that he is HOF caliber, you LAKERfiens are the illest of alltime, i mean that sincerely

Maybe nobody can understand what the hell you're trying saying Mikey, that's why.

bluefire7002
11-05-2012, 07:00 PM
I dunno why but whenever i see 3rdasystem posts, it reminds me of the movie Billy Madison, when Adam Sandler goes on that long rant about the lost puppy :)

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 07:00 PM
I dunno why but whenever i see 3rdasystem posts, it reminds me of the movie Billy Madison, when Adam Sandler goes on that long rant about the lost puppy :)
:laugh:

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 07:01 PM
Did you honestly just question my love for Derek Fisher?!?!?!?!?!?!?



Go to bed kid!

not at all, im just stating you dont overrate his game and say cause of his 5rings he better than ZEKE/STOCKTON/AI/NASH/CP3, who all have a combined 2 ships and a gazillion allstar/allnba trips

i just woke up, sorry foster parent...go to work

mightybosstone
11-05-2012, 07:04 PM
My point was no matter how ridiculous MJ was at that point, Shaq would have still won all 3 finals MVPs... Shaq was just too much during that span.. But my overall point was even if that were the case, a player shouldn't be looked down at just because they played with a more polarizing player..
A player should be looked down on if the majority of his success is due to the outstanding play of another player, who was superior to him at the time. That is Kobe's case, and that is one of many reasons he will never be higher than 10th on my list.


Not true. The NBA awards the MVP to the best team's best player.. The Lakers had an MVP type player but on a bad team.. Hence, he doesn't have many MVPs. That's exactly my point. The MVP doesn't always go to the best player in the league, it goes to the best team's best player. So regular season MVPs in the modern era isn't really much of an accolade to rely on when determining top 10 GOAT list.
:laugh: There is not one single criteria for receiving the MVP, and I can assure you that I could go through every single season and find tons of examples of this not being true. For example (ironically), Kobe won the MVP in 07-08 despite the Celtics clearly being a better team and Garnett having a larger impact on Boston.

And Lebron has won the MVP multiple times now when his team wasn't the best in the league. Why? Because he was clearly the league's best player. Team record has some determining factor in the award, but above all else, it's the play of the individual and not the team.


I agree with this, but the DPOY, like the MVP doesn't always go to that year's best defender..
Not always, but Kobe clearly never had the defensive impact of other guys. It's one thing to give DPOY to someone like Tyson Chandler, who may not be as good as Dwight, but had a huge impact on New York's defense and is a top 3 defensive big man. It's another to give the award to Kobe in an era where defensive bigs dominated and he wasn't even the best perimeter defender by a wide margin.

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 07:06 PM
not at all, im just stating you dont overrate his game and say cause of his 5rings he better than ZEKE/STOCKTON/AI/NASH/CP3, who all have a combined 2 ships and a gazillion allstar/allnba trips

i just woke up, sorry foster parent...go to work

I think this is why you're so bitter on PSD.


Come here son, let me give you a hug and compensate for yrs of neglect. :love:

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 07:07 PM
Maybe nobody can understand what the hell you're trying saying Mikey, that's why.


when nobody understands= DENIAL


if you cant understand that what i said actually happened then whos the damn fool?

now just cause im not wording it proper or speaking to u via cellie doesnt mean you cant understand a ''BACK UP GUARD'' hyped into ALLSTAR STARTER'' but doesnt start on his regular season squad, he started 2 allstar games after avg 7ppg, but couldnt grab a backcourt starting gig til yr 4, is that hype or substance?

But i get it he came straight out of highschool so he should sit the bench no matter how 'great' his game is...its now more obvious that you're trying to pump up his legacy more than his actual game

cant believe im sitting here discussing a backup guard who developed into a starter

then i recall im dealin wit LAKERfiens, no wonder

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 07:07 PM
Kobe was never the clear cut number 1 player in 05-08 and in 08 CP3 had a better season and managed to get 2nd seed in the West with a fairly mediocre team.

he was the clear cut best player in 05 as well in 06. 07 he was clearly best but dirk's team was the number 1 team. again his team sucked compared to both nash and dirk those 3 years. 08 his team was better from start to finish. cp3 had a mediocre team? is that a joke? they were a good team that year. there werent super teams those years besides the celtics. it's a mediocre team if you compare to the teams of today, but not back then.

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 07:12 PM
I think this is why you're so bitter on PSD.


Come here son, let me give you a hug and compensate for yrs of neglect. :love:

exactly says the foster parent who told the 'kid' to go to bed

im awake and here to compensate for those who were misled about a 'backup guard'

its so funny because i was talking to a KOBEfien whos really into all 3 sports and they said they forgot he was a backup guard, they started laughing and saying media hyped him up so big you forget

but i get it 7ppg will take you a long long way
its no diff. than all you KOBEfiens screaming last yr on how he avg 27ppg on 23shots per...you kept screaming how old/16yrs in....so now im using same analogy in reverse and you're panties get in a bunch

it means nothing that he scoring 27ppg last yr, i've stated over and over in my posts, he was who he was from day1, a scorer .nothin more nothin less

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 07:12 PM
when nobody understands= DENIAL


if you cant understand that what i said actually happened then whos the damn fool?

now just cause im not wording it proper or speaking to u via cellie doesnt mean you cant understand a ''BACK UP GUARD'' hyped into ALLSTAR STARTER'' but doesnt start on his regular season squad, he started 2 allstar games after avg 7ppg, but couldnt grab a backcourt starting gig til yr 4, is that hype or substance?

But i get it he came straight out of highschool so he should sit the bench no matter how 'great' his game is...its now more obvious that you're trying to pump up his legacy more than his actual game

cant believe im sitting here discussing a backup guard who developed into a starter

then i recall im dealin wit LAKERfiens, no wonder


again im not the biggest kobe fan out there, but he was starter material from day 1. his coach was too dumb to see it. no wonder not too long after he got fired and they got a real coach.

you're just pulling arguments out of your behind and looking for reasons now to justify your belief. as well as to just keep diminishing kobe as a player and his achievements. just stop already. you're ridiculous.

bluefire7002
11-05-2012, 07:13 PM
So a 15ppg allstar shooting guard doesnt start for his regular season team? JONES was just a good player, not HOF caliber worthy? how was he overlooked when he went in lottery at 13? and he could have went as high as 1 when sixers worked him out last attempt to land hometown kid(but AI workout blew their minds)

he could have got drafted to a last place or bottom feeder(NETS,HORNETS), so obviously KOBE saw the team because he handpicked his way there, you mean to tell me that a player would pick his own team to ride the bench? and it wasnt his first yr, he avg 7,15,19ppg his first 3, allstar numbers or developing player numbers? c'mon even you KOBEfiens cant deny that

so like i said he chose to go to a team to backup other 'good' players....or where they allnba annual type? cause then i wouuld give him a pass, but not for backin up JONES/EXEL/SCOTT

thats funny talk

Still have to read your posts at least twice to comprehend... so what is the point your trying to make??? Kobe is not top 20? 30?

AI > Kobe:clap:

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 07:18 PM
how can somebody be so good in yr 10 but wasnt from yr1?

like go look at SHAQ/AI/BRON/MAGIC/JORDAN and they did it off top, look at they first yr,then they 10yr,basically same...now say if SHAQ/BRON rode the bench when they first entered the league they first 3yrs, im not bout to be screaming how great/dominate they were if they are backups on they reg season teams but starting on allstar teams....

but i just look at it diff., maybe its just the 'player' in me sayin this..but its comical in a sense

to me if KOBE was so damn good in 2003 then why wasnt it there from day1? because he developed right?

to me top players like BRON/AI/SHAQ and more didnt 'develop' **** and just came thru beast mode for a decade plus day1, its just how i rank players

i dont wait til you crack the starting lineup or make a allstar game to rank you as a player in your era...once your drafted, the ranking begins

but he developed into a good player, this top 10 **** is just madness in LA type ****

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-05-2012, 07:22 PM
how can somebody be so good in yr 10 but wasnt from yr1?

like go look at SHAQ/AI/BRON/MAGIC/JORDAN and they did it off top, look at they first yr,then they 10yr,basically same...now say if SHAQ/BRON rode the bench when they first entered the league they first 3yrs, im not bout to be screaming how great/dominate they were if they are backups on they reg season teams but starting on allstar teams....

but i just look at it diff., maybe its just the 'player' in me sayin this..but its comical in a sense

to me if KOBE was so damn good in 2003 then why wasnt it there from day1? because he developed right?

to me top players like BRON/AI/SHAQ and more didnt 'develop' **** and just came thru beast mode for a decade plus day1, its just how i rank players

i dont wait til you crack the starting lineup or make a allstar game to rank you as a player in your era...once your drafted, the ranking begins

but he developed into a good player, this top 10 **** is just madness in LA type ****



This thread is for you: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=768241


You're Welcome.




#jajajjajjajajajjajajjaajajajajjajajajajaajajajaja jaincoherentsystem

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 07:26 PM
Still have to read your posts at least twice to comprehend... so what is the point your trying to make??? Kobe is not top 20? 30?

AI > Kobe:clap:

i said he was a scoring version of PIPP and PIPP is ranked in top 50 of alltime, but he didnt pass or defend on PIPP's level in my book

its hard to rank KOBE on his actual game being he a mirrorimage of JORDAN, a poor poor mans version, so that gets alot of points via media and fanatics worldwide but not from me, u actually lose points

where would you rank PIPPEN?

yea AI is the defintion of getting it done from day1, go look at his rookie stats and then 12yrs later in 08 , now thats game

same with BRON
same with SHAQ
same with DUNCAN
day1,get it done
yr 4 be a fulltime starter
either 1 works for me, i'll call a spade a spade everytime

3RDASYSTEM
11-05-2012, 07:30 PM
This thread is for you: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=768241


You're Welcome.




#jajajjajjajajajjajajjaajajajajjajajajajaajajajaja jaincoherentsystem

that thread was overrated like the backup guard turned starter that you take up for


never in my life would i think i would have to discuss over and over about a backup guard turned starter or a allstar game starter but not starting for his regular season team but he is the 'franchise' guard or did that belong to JONES?

then on top of that i had to discuss and decipher how a 2ppg and 4ppg scorer was very difficult to work with on any level, let alone in the NBA(old topic)

psd is the ****,keep it up the bad work

boobsandgravy
11-05-2012, 07:31 PM
how can somebody be so good in yr 10 but wasnt from yr1?

like go look at SHAQ/AI/BRON/MAGIC/JORDAN and they did it off top, look at they first yr,then they 10yr,basically same...now say if SHAQ/BRON rode the bench when they first entered the league they first 3yrs, im not bout to be screaming how great/dominate they were if they are backups on they reg season teams but starting on allstar teams....

but i just look at it diff., maybe its just the 'player' in me sayin this..but its comical in a sense

to me if KOBE was so damn good in 2003 then why wasnt it there from day1? because he developed right?

to me top players like BRON/AI/SHAQ and more didnt 'develop' **** and just came thru beast mode for a decade plus day1, its just how i rank players

i dont wait til you crack the starting lineup or make a allstar game to rank you as a player in your era...once your drafted, the ranking begins

but he developed into a good player, this top 10 **** is just madness in LA type ****

where is ai now? how long was he good? or how long has he maintained that high level of play? what did he accomplish? yeah keep trying to pull these arguments out of your *** lol. im done reading your ridiculous posts.