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Diabolical
11-03-2012, 05:30 PM
I love stats just as much as the next guy, but which players have excellent defensive stats (blocks/steals/rebounds) but are mediocre defenders? Which players, at first glance, have mediocre defensive stats (blocks/steals/rebounds) but are excellent defenders?

Example:

Excellent Stats - Mediocre Defender
Kevin Durant
Career Defensive Rebounds: 5.7
Career Blocks: 1.0
Career Steals: 1.2

Mediocre Stats - Excellent Defender
Aaron Afflalo
Career Defensive Rebounds: 2.1
Career Blocks: 0.3
Career Steals: 0.5

I think between the two of them, I'd rather have Afflalo guarding the other teams best wing player.

Raidaz4Life
11-03-2012, 05:45 PM
oh boy.... in before the stat geeks take it over

asandhu23
11-03-2012, 05:47 PM
^indeed.

Guppyfighter
11-03-2012, 05:48 PM
Those are traditional stats and they are flawed. So, I don't see your point.

b@llhog24
11-03-2012, 05:48 PM
Micheal Cooper.

Quinnsanity
11-03-2012, 05:51 PM
:facepalm: nobody uses traditional stats to measure defenders. That's one of the reasons we have advanced metrics, which are much closer to accurate but still nowhere near perfect. Look at DRtg, Defensive Win Shares, Block percentage, Steal percentage and Rebound percentage. None of those are perfect stats but they're better than traditional stats.

JasonJohnHorn
11-03-2012, 05:54 PM
I'm not an expert on advance stats, but there are other ways to measure defensive impacts outside of steals and blocks per.

Iverson, as an example, was great at getting steals, but he wasn't a great defender.

b@llhog24
11-03-2012, 05:55 PM
If you're using Drtg, and don't know how to apply it properly it can be just as misleading.

Diabolical
11-03-2012, 05:58 PM
Those are traditional stats and they are flawed. So, I don't see your point.

Actually, that is why I want people to list players where traditional stats actually deceive...

Diabolical
11-03-2012, 06:00 PM
:facepalm: nobody uses traditional stats to measure defenders. That's one of the reasons we have advanced metrics, which are much closer to accurate but still nowhere near perfect. Look at DRtg, Defensive Win Shares, Block percentage, Steal percentage and Rebound percentage. None of those are perfect stats but they're better than traditional stats.

Um... this is why I want people to list players. Are you seriously not able to comprehend that? Face palm, really?

Diabolical
11-03-2012, 06:02 PM
If you're using Drtg, and don't know how to apply it properly it can be just as misleading.

I'm not applying anything... I'm wanting people to list players that discredit traditional defensive stats. Perhaps I should have titled it "Traditional"... people think they are informing me of this new discovery...

Raidaz4Life
11-03-2012, 06:07 PM
I'm not applying anything... I'm wanting people to list players that discredit traditional defensive stats. Perhaps I should have titled it "Traditional"... people think they are informing me of this new discovery...

Well you worded the question very poorly.... I don't think most knowledgeable fans use "defensive stats" to determine whether or not a person is a good defender. That was a big assumption on your part. Therefore Kevin Durant averaging over a steal and block a game really doesn't make him a good defender in anyone's mind (although he actually isn't that bad) and its funny that you use Afflalo as your example because he is a notoriously overrated defender by users of advanced stats.

Baller1
11-03-2012, 06:09 PM
Durant is a better defender than Afflalo. If you want Afflalo guarding someone over KD, well... Then you're going to have a worse defender than I am.

b@llhog24
11-03-2012, 06:32 PM
I'm not applying anything... I'm wanting people to list players that discredit traditional defensive stats. Perhaps I should have titled it "Traditional"... people think they are informing me of this new discovery...

Except this particular response wasn't referring to you.


Well you worded the question very poorly.... I don't think most knowledgeable fans use "defensive stats" to determine whether or not a person is a good defender.

This. And...


That was a big assumption on your part. Therefore Kevin Durant averaging over a steal and block a game really doesn't make him a good defender in anyone's mind (although he actually isn't that bad) and its funny that you use Afflalo as your example because he is a notoriously overrated defender by users of advanced stats.

He's overrated period.


Durant is a better defender than Afflalo. If you want Afflalo guarding someone over KD, well... Then you're going to have a worse defender than I am.

By a significant margin.

Swashcuff
11-03-2012, 06:40 PM
Interesting. KD a mediocre defender? Is the date on this thread wrong because I'm certain we're not in 2009 anymore and KD has grown greatly defensively. To the point where he's clearly above average.

xnick5757
11-03-2012, 06:41 PM
Durant gave up 0.79 PPP last year, Afflalo gave up 0.98 PPP

Players shot 33.7% (2s) against Durant, 43.1% against Afflalo.

Players shot 33.2% (3s) against Durant, 42.2% against Afflalo.




Synergy ranks Durant 91 overall - Afflalo is ranked 422.

b@llhog24
11-03-2012, 06:43 PM
Durant gave up 0.79 PPP last year, Afflalo gave up 0.98 PPP

Players shot 33.7% (2s) against Durant, 43.1% against Afflalo.

Players shot 33.2% (3s) against Durant, 42.2% against Afflalo.




Synergy ranks Durant 91 overall - Afflalo is ranked 422.

Don't do em like that bro.

xnick5757
11-03-2012, 06:44 PM
Don't do em like that bro.

?

b@llhog24
11-03-2012, 06:45 PM
?

Was commending you.

jericho
11-03-2012, 06:47 PM
Durant gave up 0.79 PPP last year, Afflalo gave up 0.98 PPP

Players shot 33.7% (2s) against Durant, 43.1% against Afflalo.

Players shot 33.2% (3s) against Durant, 42.2% against Afflalo.




Synergy ranks Durant 91 overall - Afflalo is ranked 422.

there is 1 big difference in this comment tho while afflalo is always guarding the best offensive player on the other team kd is not that job belongs to sefolosha so he actually guards somebody thats not that good
still think afflalo is overrated

Swashcuff
11-03-2012, 06:51 PM
there is 1 big difference in this comment tho while afflalo is always guarding the best offensive player on the other team kd is not that job belongs to sefolosha so he actually guards somebody thats not that good
still think afflalo is overrated

Actually that's not entirely true. On many occasions where the opposing best team's best offense player was a bigger player (SF) KD would actually guard him. Thabo was a top 5 perimeter defender last season IMO BUT he played just 22 MPG and 42 games on the entire season. Who do you think was doing the work on D when Thabo was out?

KnicksorBust
11-03-2012, 06:54 PM
I love stats just as much as the next guy, but which players have excellent defensive stats (blocks/steals/rebounds) but are mediocre defenders? Which players, at first glance, have mediocre defensive stats (blocks/steals/rebounds) but are excellent defenders?

Example:

Excellent Stats - Mediocre Defender
Kevin Durant
Career Defensive Rebounds: 5.7
Career Blocks: 1.0
Career Steals: 1.2

Mediocre Stats - Excellent Defender
Aaron Afflalo
Career Defensive Rebounds: 2.1
Career Blocks: 0.3
Career Steals: 0.5

I think between the two of them, I'd rather have Afflalo guarding the other teams best wing player.

I'll do a couple for each.

Players whose stats overrate their defense:
Gerald Wallace
Josh Smith
Monta Ellis
Javale McGee


Players whose stats underrate their defense:
Avery Bradley
Thabo Sefolosha
Ronnie Brewer
Luol Deng
Tyson Chandler


Players whose stats affirm their actual skill:
Chris Paul
LeBron James
Andre Iguodala
Tony Allen
Dwight Howard

Baller1
11-03-2012, 06:54 PM
there is 1 big difference in this comment tho while afflalo is always guarding the best offensive player on the other team kd is not that job belongs to sefolosha so he actually guards somebody thats not that good
still think afflalo is overrated

That's not always true. Last year Durant was guarding the best player in the fourth because Sef usually sat late in games. And the fourth quarter is actually when KD shines most defensively.

I've seen it said before, but this situation with KD's defense is exactly like Lebron's from a few years back. Lebron was always overlooked as an elite defender simply because people just assumed he hadn't grown from his early years in the league. This is the same with KD now... People just haven't accepted the fact that KD has grown as a defender and is now a borderline elite defender.

Even if you want to keep it elementary for those of you that are against us "stat geeks", he averaged a block and a steal last season... One of the few. Advanced statistics, elementary statistics, eye-test, intangibles, etc.; doesn't matter, they all show KD's very strong defensive skills.

Baller1
11-03-2012, 06:55 PM
Actually that's not entirely true. On many occasions where the opposing best team's best offense player was a bigger player (SF) KD would actually guard him. Thabo was a top 5 perimeter defender last season IMO BUT he played just 22 MPG and 42 games on the entire season. Who do you think was doing the work on D when Thabo was out?

Haha, I basically just said the same thing... Beat me to it.

jericho
11-03-2012, 07:07 PM
Actually that's not entirely true. On many occasions where the opposing best team's best offense player was a bigger player (SF) KD would actually guard him. Thabo was a top 5 perimeter defender last season IMO BUT he played just 22 MPG and 42 games on the entire season. Who do you think was doing the work on D when Thabo was out?


That's not always true. Last year Durant was guarding the best player in the fourth because Sef usually sat late in games. And the fourth quarter is actually when KD shines most defensively.

I've seen it said before, but this situation with KD's defense is exactly like Lebron's from a few years back. Lebron was always overlooked as an elite defender simply because people just assumed he hadn't grown from his early years in the league. This is the same with KD now... People just haven't accepted the fact that KD has grown as a defender and is now a borderline elite defender.

Even if you want to keep it elementary for those of you that are against us "stat geeks", he averaged a block and a steal last season... One of the few. Advanced statistics, elementary statistics, eye-test, intangibles, etc.; doesn't matter, they all show KD's very strong defensive skills.

whole game vs a few minutes still a difference kd comes more fresh to play d cuz he isnt working that hard on that end i aint saying he is bad or anything just that his numbers are that way cuz is not guarding the opositions best player all the time

jericho
11-03-2012, 07:10 PM
same thing could be said with lebron again im not saying they suck or that they are bad or wtvr but he also has shane battier to play D on the other teams best offensive threat they benefit from this situation

Baller1
11-03-2012, 07:11 PM
whole game vs a few minutes still a difference kd comes more fresh to play d cuz he isnt working that hard on that end i aint saying he is bad or anything just that his numbers are that way cuz is not guarding the opositions best player all the time

But the fact of the matter is, KD shouldn't be discredited just because he isn't guarding the best player on the other team for the whole game. He defends his man at an elite level consistently, and that's all you can ask from a player.

dalton749
11-03-2012, 07:11 PM
james johnson has great stats but hes a mediocre deffender

jericho
11-03-2012, 07:15 PM
But the fact of the matter is, KD shouldn't be discredited just because he isn't guarding the best player on the other team for the whole game. He defends his man at an elite level consistently, and that's all you can ask from a player.

why not if he is that good i want him playin D against the best offensive player that would put my team on a better position to win dont you think??

b@llhog24
11-03-2012, 07:25 PM
why not if he is that good i want him playin D against the best offensive player that would put my team on a better position to win dont you think??

The Thunder's record last year begs to disagree with you. You could also argue that Thabo doesn't play enough minutes to be an elite defender, but you wouldn't right? Why is that? Because when he is on the floor he does his job on his man defensively, and that's all you can ask of KD.

Baller1
11-03-2012, 07:26 PM
why not if he is that good i want him playin D against the best offensive player that would put my team on a better position to win dont you think??

Why would they do that when the have a top 5 perimeter defender on the team? This gives Durant the luxury of focusing on offense and then defending the best player when it matters most.

jericho
11-03-2012, 07:28 PM
Why would they do that when the have a top 5 perimeter defender on the team? This gives Durant the luxury of focusing on offense and then defending the best player when it matters most.

first you discredit thabo and now you giving him props and again im not saying he is bad on D but that he is getting a lil bit of credit from the job that thabo does even if it was 22mpg

Baller1
11-03-2012, 07:46 PM
first you discredit thabo and now you giving him props and again im not saying he is bad on D but that he is getting a lil bit of credit from the job that thabo does even if it was 22mpg

When did I discredit Thabo? I said he doesn't play late in games.

torocan
11-04-2012, 01:28 AM
Another thing to keep in mind is there's alot of different types of defenders.

Perimeter defenders, on ball defenders, post defenders, shot blockers, help defenders, etc... they are all defensive skills, but they tend to play into different strengths and weaknesses.

For example, take Chandler or Dwight out to the wing and they are very different defenders than when they are at the Rim.

We have to qualify what KINDS of defender we're talking about, THEN look at the particular defender in question, then we can make decisions about that person's particular defensive skillset and the statistics that are relevant.

SO, there are defenders that are great on ball, but poor help defenders. Or good at covering passing lanes, but weak post up defenders, etc, etc.

Right tool for the job if you know what I mean.