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Quinnsanity
11-01-2012, 12:35 AM
What the hell is going on with all of these ridiculous extensions today? Does this happen every year? What really bothers me is that these teams just fundamentally don't understand how to win in this league. Locking up Demar Derozan and Jrue Holiday to 10 mil per year deals is the ABSOLUTE worst thing they can do. They'd seriously be better off giving that money to me. Why? Because then they'd bottom out and get a high draft pick. Why don't teams realize that:

A. The worst place to be in the league is in the middle. You want to be top 5 or bottom 5, nowhere in between.

B. Any player that doesn't realistically help those goals both economically and on the court should be gone.

C. If the goal is to make a profit, then three years of low cost players should make up for the losing and then if you've done it right you'll be in a position to contend and make money.

Seriously. Cap space is such a precious asset. It's amazing that teams continue to make these ludicrous deals. Your goal should be to either have no players on your team locked up to long term deals (except rookie contracts), or to be in a position where you have two or three who legitimately deserve 15+ per year. Why do only a few teams understand that?

Sixerlover
11-01-2012, 12:42 AM
To answer your 1st question, tonight before midnight was the deadline before guys from the '09 draft would be restricted free agents, and yeah it happens like this every year for the most part.

As to your 2nd question: It's not as easy as you make it sound. When your actually in control of a franchise, and everything that a franchise entails, it isn't as cut and dry as a team full of rookie deals or a team full of vets trying to win. Every GM in the league understands that the goal in the NBA is either top 5 or bottom 5, but due to #1. Job security (no owner wants a Sacramento Kings squad that's annually bottom 5, or a team fans don't care about because they cannot grow to like certain mainstays), #2. Competitive play on the court, #3. Lack of superstars, or #4. Business relations (marketing, PR, tickets sales etc) teams are in between waiting for a big move.

I can say from the Sixers P.O.V that they feel as though there are only 8-10 guys in the NBA that can win a title as the #1 option, and they believe if healthy they have one in Bynum. With Bynum as a mainstay and Jrue now as a mainstay, they feel that one more piece in between at the 2,3, or 4 will cement them as title contenders. That's why they re-signed him because he is apart of the core.

davids22
11-01-2012, 12:42 AM
Because they are developing players moron. You don't just give up on your drafted player after 4 years. Jrue, Demar, Harden, Lawson, and Jennings (he's definitely next to get paid) are worth the money to see what they're worth.

You dont just dump a developing player who is at most 24 years old for a CHANCE at a top 5 pick so you can start all over again.

Not every team is the Thunder.

sixer04fan
11-01-2012, 12:42 AM
It's the 2009 draft class that are coming off their rookie deals. If they didn't sign an extension before the midnight deadline that just passed tonight, then they'd become restricted free agents after this season.

I'm not sure if it happens like this every year or if this is a first time under the new CBA.

Quinnsanity
11-01-2012, 12:48 AM
Because they are developing players moron. You don't just give up on your drafted player after 4 years. Jrue, Demar, Harden, Lawson, and Jennings (he's definitely next to get paid) are worth the money to see what they're worth.

You dont just dump a developing player who is at most 24 years old for a CHANCE at a top 5 pick so you can start all over again.

Not every team is the Thunder.

I understand the rules behind it, but I don't ever remember seeing this many bad contracts being dealt in such a short time.

The time for developing players is the rookie contract. You don't pay someone 40+ for a chance that they'll develop into a player worth that contract. That Harden contract I understand, he's worth that money. Lawson makes sense to me to because that team may not quite be as good as Miami or OKC, but they're a legitimate top tier team. But tell me why it's a good idea for Toronto to pay Derozan 40? Philly to pay Jrue 41? Wouldn't you rather have the cap flexibility and a better draft pick? I know not every team can be the Thunder, but every team, at least the ones who can't do pluck top FA's away, should try to be. That's how teams are built. Look at the examples of teams who built the OKC way and then look at teams who built the way these teams are doing it. The difference is astronimcal in terms of championships. Not many teams have won titles picking 12th every year. In the NBA you win picking in the top 5 or being in a top market.

davids22
11-01-2012, 12:53 AM
I understand the rules behind it, but I don't ever remember seeing this many bad contracts being dealt in such a short time.

The time for developing players is the rookie contract. You don't pay someone 40+ for a chance that they'll develop into a player worth that contract. That Harden contract I understand, he's worth that money. Lawson makes sense to me to because that team may not quite be as good as Miami or OKC, but they're a legitimate top tier team. But tell me why it's a good idea for Toronto to pay Derozan 40? Philly to pay Jrue 41? Wouldn't you rather have the cap flexibility and a better draft pick? I know not every team can be the Thunder, but every team, at least the ones who can't do pluck top FA's away, should try to be. That's how teams are built. Look at the examples of teams who built the OKC way and then look at teams who built the way these teams are doing it. The difference is astronimcal in terms of championships. Not many teams have won titles picking 12th every year. In the NBA you win picking in the top 5 or being in a top market.

Idk, sounds like to me that you want your team to either sign a big name in FA or luck out and draft a future super star.

Bottom line, NBA is a business, and these teams have seats to fill. They need to have SOME level of talent on the team. Clearly the Raptors feel Derozen is a good guy to start to build a team around.

We all thought Houston giving Asik and Lin those deals was a waste, but now they have Harden, and have the cap space to go after Dwight in the summer. You never know what can happen. These front offices know what they're doing (for the most part).

topdog
11-01-2012, 12:59 AM
I guess after an off-season where everybody's heart was somewhere else, GMs lost faith in RFA.

mightybosstone
11-01-2012, 12:59 AM
We all thought Houston giving Asik and Lin those deals was a waste, but now they have Harden, and have the cap space to go after Dwight in the summer. You never know what can happen. These front offices know what they're doing (for the most part).

Lin and Asik's deals seem like steals now. But I agree with your point, and aside from the atrocious Derozan extension, I thought Harden, Holiday and Gibson all got about fair value for the roles they play.

davids22
11-01-2012, 01:04 AM
Really confused what my Bucks are going to do now... expected them to let Monta walk and resign Jennings. When is deadline officially?

topdog
11-01-2012, 01:11 AM
Really confused what my Bucks are going to do now... expected them to let Monta walk and resign Jennings. When is deadline officially?

The deadline was midnight eastern time, but that simply means that his value will be determined in free agency and the Bucks will have the chance to match if they so choose.

Quinnsanity
11-01-2012, 01:20 AM
Idk, sounds like to me that you want your team to either sign a big name in FA or luck out and draft a future super star.

Bottom line, NBA is a business, and these teams have seats to fill. They need to have SOME level of talent on the team. Clearly the Raptors feel Derozen is a good guy to start to build a team around.

We all thought Houston giving Asik and Lin those deals was a waste, but now they have Harden, and have the cap space to go after Dwight in the summer. You never know what can happen. These front offices know what they're doing (for the most part).

That's exactly what I'd want. I'm a Knicks fan so I'm in a unique position, my team is one of the few who will always be attractive to top FAs. As a general fan though, I'd rather be terrible and have hope that an Anthony Davis or Kyrie Irving is going to come save my team than be mediocre.

PurpleJesus
11-01-2012, 01:41 AM
all of these massive extensions have me glad that Rubio stayed in Spain for 2 years after he got drafted...otherwise, the Wolves would be looking at having to pay him upwards of $10 mill a year with the contracts some of these other guys are signing...instead, Wolves have him on his rookie contract for 3 more years.

seikou8
11-01-2012, 01:46 AM
you have to pay for guys to stay not everyone has a superstar sometimes you have build a team and try to sign guys you have and hopefully they reach their potential.these guys getting extensions aren't no scrubs they very good players who can become stars in this league

AsfanSince99
11-01-2012, 02:12 AM
I understand the rules behind it, but I don't ever remember seeing this many bad contracts being dealt in such a short time.

The time for developing players is the rookie contract. You don't pay someone 40+ for a chance that they'll develop into a player worth that contract. That Harden contract I understand, he's worth that money. Lawson makes sense to me to because that team may not quite be as good as Miami or OKC, but they're a legitimate top tier team. But tell me why it's a good idea for Toronto to pay Derozan 40? Philly to pay Jrue 41? Wouldn't you rather have the cap flexibility and a better draft pick? I know not every team can be the Thunder, but every team, at least the ones who can't do pluck top FA's away, should try to be. That's how teams are built. Look at the examples of teams who built the OKC way and then look at teams who built the way these teams are doing it. The difference is astronimcal in terms of championships. Not many teams have won titles picking 12th every year. In the NBA you win picking in the top 5 or being in a top market.
I agree. Those guys are waaaaay over paid. Guys making $10 million plus p/yr should be putting up better numbers than Jrue. They're basically getting Rondo money for a fraction of the production, smh..

Alayla
11-01-2012, 02:33 AM
What the hell is going on with all of these ridiculous extensions today? Does this happen every year? What really bothers me is that these teams just fundamentally don't understand how to win in this league. Locking up Demar Derozan and Jrue Holiday to 10 mil per year deals is the ABSOLUTE worst thing they can do. They'd seriously be better off giving that money to me. Why? Because then they'd bottom out and get a high draft pick. Why don't teams realize that:

A. The worst place to be in the league is in the middle. You want to be top 5 or bottom 5, nowhere in between.

B. Any player that doesn't realistically help those goals both economically and on the court should be gone.

C. If the goal is to make a profit, then three years of low cost players should make up for the losing and then if you've done it right you'll be in a position to contend and make money.

Seriously. Cap space is such a precious asset. It's amazing that teams continue to make these ludicrous deals. Your goal should be to either have no players on your team locked up to long term deals (except rookie contracts), or to be in a position where you have two or three who legitimately deserve 15+ per year. Why do only a few teams understand that?

Explain to me how giving holiday 10mill is bad?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holiday hasn't even topped out yet and is already a top 15 PG...
Hes 22 years old and is only going to get better and its not like 10 mill is star money... As a 2nd option that's a good move..

Quinnsanity
11-01-2012, 02:51 AM
Explain to me how giving holiday 10mill is bad?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holiday hasn't even topped out yet and is already a top 15 PG...
Hes 22 years old and is only going to get better and its not like 10 mill is star money... As a 2nd option that's a good move..

Let me ask you this. Is there any scenario, no matter how ridiculous, where you win a championship with Jrue Holiday as the second option? Or even the third? Look at the third options on the past few title teams: Bosh, Terry (the worst person on this list and still better than Jrue), Bynum, Ray Allen and Manu. Is Jrue on the level of those guys? No, so best case he's the 4th best player on a title team, which is presumably the goal of the organization. If that's the case, why are you paying him like a second or third banana? You can argue that's not really what those guys get, but the way I look at it there's no way to build a team where four guys make 10+ mil (the problem OKC just faced). Maybe the market will pay Jrue that money, but smart teams wouldn't.

Alayla
11-01-2012, 03:16 AM
Let me ask you this. Is there any scenario, no matter how ridiculous, where you win a championship with Jrue Holiday as the second option? Or even the third? Look at the third options on the past few title teams: Bosh, Terry (the worst person on this list and still better than Jrue), Bynum, Ray Allen and Manu. Is Jrue on the level of those guys? No, so best case he's the 4th best player on a title team, which is presumably the goal of the organization. If that's the case, why are you paying him like a second or third banana? You can argue that's not really what those guys get, but the way I look at it there's no way to build a team where four guys make 10+ mil (the problem OKC just faced). Maybe the market will pay Jrue that money, but smart teams wouldn't.

Thats alot of certainty coming from u on who all is better than Jrue seeing as i said he just turned 22

And yes Seeing as PG and center are the 2 most Critical postions in basketball id say so
If Jrue gets something Around 18 and 8 at his peak (totally possible)
We find a competent 3rd option at SG
Evan gets something like 12 5 and 5 with good defense as our SF
Thad Develops into a player on par with Millsap or we trade for a player of that caliber at the 4
Bynum Reups and Stays healthy putting up consistent 20 10 type seasons.

In a situation like that i could see us winning it all for one random down year
a team like that on paper wouldn't be too much Wrose than the mavs of 2011

Quinnsanity
11-01-2012, 03:42 AM
Thats alot of certainty coming from u on who all is better than Jrue seeing as i said he just turned 22

And yes Seeing as PG and center are the 2 most Critical postions in basketball id say so
If Jrue gets something Around 18 and 8 at his peak (totally possible)
We find a competent 3rd option at SG
Evan gets something like 12 5 and 5 with good defense as our SF
Thad Develops into a player on par with Millsap or we trade for a player of that caliber at the 4
Bynum Reups and Stays healthy putting up consistent 20 10 type seasons.

In a situation like that i could see us winning it all for one random down year
a team like that on paper wouldn't be too much Wrose than the mavs of 2011

You're basically saying that it's a good deal because if everything breaks right under the perfect circumstances you can win the title. First of all, I completely disagree with that, but even if everyone develops as you say, it's not happening. Philly isn't beating Miami for the next few years, and after that it's a crapshoot but it'll probably come down to how the true top tier young stars develop like Rose, Durant, Kyrie and Anthony Davis if he lives up to the hype.

Alayla
11-01-2012, 06:37 AM
You're basically saying that it's a good deal because if everything breaks right under the perfect circumstances you can win the title. First of all, I completely disagree with that, but even if everyone develops as you say, it's not happening. Philly isn't beating Miami for the next few years, and after that it's a crapshoot but it'll probably come down to how the true top tier young stars develop like Rose, Durant, Kyrie and Anthony Davis if he lives up to the hype.

Give it 2 to 3 years of sixers improving and the heat declining and we can discuss this again but personally i think the fact the sixers are strongest where the heat are most lacking and those happening to be the most important positions in the game is an underrated aspect of this discussion just because of that alone we could give the heat problems.

as for the Bolded thats the case with ANY NBA team any of them even having an outside shot at a title is more than most teams can boast right?
but no thats not why its a good deal its a good deal becuase Jrue will prove to be worth it in the long run

thenaj17
11-01-2012, 07:13 AM
Give it 2 to 3 years of sixers improving and the heat declining and we can discuss this again but personally i think the fact the sixers are strongest where the heat are most lacking and those happening to be the most important positions in the game is an underrated aspect of this discussion just because of that alone we could give the heat problems.

as for the Bolded thats the case with ANY NBA team any of them even having an outside shot at a title is more than most teams can boast right?
but no thats not why its a good deal its a good deal becuase Jrue will prove to be worth it in the long run

So you agree he's not worth that contract now? I'm not sure i agree when you say he's top 15 PG and i also disagree strongly when you say PG & C are the most important positions.

None of the last 4 winners Heat, Mavs, Lakers or Celtics had elite at either of those positions during their title winning years. Apart from Dwight, none of their opponents in the Finals had elite C or PG either. Granted there is some duplicaiton of teams but it proves you don't have to have those 2 positions to go far.

Hardaway Here
11-01-2012, 09:07 AM
You seem to dislike Jrue idk why he can hoop. He is still young and developing you make it sound like his wheels are bout to fall off and they just got ripped off. He is worth it he is a quality player that is only getting better. Nothing worse than seeing a developing talent break out as a star somewhere else because you didn't want to pay. It has happened plenty of times so just chill

Hardaway Here
11-01-2012, 09:10 AM
So you agree he's not worth that contract now? I'm not sure i agree when you say he's top 15 PG and i also disagree strongly when you say PG & C are the most important positions.

None of the last 4 winners Heat, Mavs, Lakers or Celtics had elite at either of those positions during their title winning years. Apart from Dwight, none of their opponents in the Finals had elite C or PG either. Granted there is some duplicaiton of teams but it proves you don't have to have those 2 positions to go far.

Celtics had an elite pg in Rondo everyone overlooked his pure pg skills and his passing because of his teammates that style of his play has never changed and he still can't shoot but is considered top 5 in league today. Would of been at the time to if people weren't gawking at kg, allen, and pierce at the time

JasonJohnHorn
11-01-2012, 10:28 AM
The OP is right. Though this does happen every year, I find it usually happens at teh beginning of the offseason when teams are trying to put up the best offers fro free agents.

As a rule, all of these players will be RESTRICTED FREE AGENTS!!!! It's not like any of these teams are going to lose them to free agency. They can match any deal and keep the players.

The Harden deal, I think everybody expected. There were several teams who were going to be in a position to pay him the max and were willing to do so. Houston was one of those teams.

The GSW made a good deal. I think, had Curry hit free agency, he would have been offered more than what he sigend for depending on what he does this season.

DeRozen was an awful deal. No team in the league was going to offer him that much money. Frankly speaking, he isn't even a starter in this league and the fact that his FG% has gone down every season is a strong indication that he is NOT improving as a player.

Denver just signed Ty Lawson to a very reasonable contract extension, where he only gets about 2 million more than DeRozen, and his FG% is much higher than DeRozen's, and he can't actually shoot the 3-ball and despite being about 7 or 8 inches shorter, gets just about as many rebounds while also being able to run an offence.

The Jrue Holiday contract was a bit much, but he's shown some potential, so I don't have as much of a problem with it as i do with the DeRozen contract. Though I do think he's over paid. I would have let him go to restricted free agency and let the market decide what he was worth.


The Hornets were in a similar situation last year. They could have offered Gordon a contract extension, but they let Gordon go into restricted free agency and let the market decide how much he was getting paid. I wouldn't have matched that deal if I was them, I would have done what OKC did and trade him for picks and a player. But, NOH obviously thoguht he was worth the money.


Chicago has a talented young player with potential in Gibson, and they signed him to a contract, but they put incentives in there. I would have been more comfortable with that in the DeRozen deal. Offer him 5 million a year and then add; if you can shoot 46% from the field you get a bonus 2 million. I'm not sure what incentives the Bulls put in for gibson, but the idea that a player actually has incentive to earn the money he's making is one I like a lot, though it could have some potential problematics to it as well (for example, if you agree to give a guy a bonus if he leads the team in scoring, he might just start chucking the ball up whenever he gets it).

The Bucks, for example, did not sign Jennings to an extension. Jennings has put up some good numbers on a losing team that lack a legit first option on offence, so his numbers are likely inflated in part becuase of the situation he is playing in (like DeRozen). The Bucks are smart to let him go to restricted free agency because to be frank, I don't think there are a lot of teams out there that will make him a huge offer, likely because of his FG% (which is also a big problem for DeRozen). But Jennings does otehr things, he's a decent defender and he can run an offense.

Toronto should have let DeRozen go to restricted free agency. They would have gotten a better deal than the one they offered. Likewise for Philly and Holiday i think. GSW and DEN likely got good deals with their respective players, and Chicago was smart in basing a portion of the contract on peformance.

mightybosstone
11-01-2012, 11:31 AM
Let me ask you this. Is there any scenario, no matter how ridiculous, where you win a championship with Jrue Holiday as the second option? Or even the third? Look at the third options on the past few title teams: Bosh, Terry (the worst person on this list and still better than Jrue), Bynum, Ray Allen and Manu. Is Jrue on the level of those guys? No, so best case he's the 4th best player on a title team, which is presumably the goal of the organization. If that's the case, why are you paying him like a second or third banana? You can argue that's not really what those guys get, but the way I look at it there's no way to build a team where four guys make 10+ mil (the problem OKC just faced). Maybe the market will pay Jrue that money, but smart teams wouldn't.

Personally? Yes. I think Holiday has the skills to be a very solid No. 3 option on a contending basketball team. But a lot of that depends on the talent around him. Bynum and Holiday is a good start, but that team lacks a solid No. 1 or No. 2 between them. I do think $10 million a year will end up being good value for the guy, and I can easily see him being a 15/8/4/2 player while providing elite level defense and average-slightly below average efficiency.

mightybosstone
11-01-2012, 11:36 AM
Toronto should have let DeRozen go to restricted free agency. They would have gotten a better deal than the one they offered. Likewise for Philly and Holiday i think. GSW and DEN likely got good deals with their respective players, and Chicago was smart in basing a portion of the contract on peformance.

I seriously disagree on Holiday, who is going to have a career season without Iggy on the roster to take most of the ball handling duties. If Holiday puts up great numbers, then Philly might have ended up paying him $12-14 million a year instead of $10 million a year.

But I agree on DeRozen, and I personally would not have offered him anything close to what Toronto gave him. I also don't think he would have got anything close to that on the open market. He's a high volume, low efficiency scorer who has no range on his jump shot, plays mediocre defense and provides little to nothing else.

Golden State and Denver got fair value for their guys, although that Curry deal might bite them in the *** if he can't stay healthy, and Chicago probably overpaid a bit to keep a guy who potentially could have got a larger offer in RFA due to the lack of elite defensive bigs in the NBA.

thenaj17
11-01-2012, 12:03 PM
Celtics had an elite pg in Rondo everyone overlooked his pure pg skills and his passing because of his teammates that style of his play has never changed and he still can't shoot but is considered top 5 in league today. Would of been at the time to if people weren't gawking at kg, allen, and pierce at the time

Rondo was a 2nd year PG who couldn't shoot (even worse than now) and definitely wasn't elite. His shooting has vastly improved and his playmaking has improved drastically.

Good young PG, but not elite at the time.

Rockice_8
11-01-2012, 12:29 PM
The only deal of the big 4 deals that just got signed that I didn't like was DeRozen's. If Philly gives Turner a big deal (a DeRozen type deal) in the next few years then they'll be stupid. Having those three (Bynum, Jrue, and Turner) on big deals is not getting it done. They need to find a better wing then Turner to compliment Jrue and Bynum.

sixer04fan
11-01-2012, 12:31 PM
The only deal of the big 4 deals that just got signed that I didn't like was DeRozen's. If Philly gives Turner a big deal (a DeRozen type deal) in the next few years then they'll be stupid. Having those three (Bynum, Jrue, and Turner) on big deals is not getting it done. They need to find a better wing then Turner to compliment Jrue and Bynum.

Agreed. And I don't think they're going to extend Turner after next season because of this.

YoungOne
11-01-2012, 12:36 PM
still cant believe how ainge got rondo at 11 mil. a year :)

JasonJohnHorn
11-01-2012, 01:55 PM
I seriously disagree on Holiday, who is going to have a career season without Iggy on the roster to take most of the ball handling duties. If Holiday puts up great numbers, then Philly might have ended up paying him $12-14 million a year instead of $10 million a year

You are very likely correct about Jrue. with Williams and Iggy gone, there will be a lot on his shoulders. I expect he will have the best season of his career. But that said, I don't think there are a lot of teams with capspace that need a point guard. The point guad spot is pretty deep in the NBA right now. But that said, Philly has gotten a good look at this kid of the last three years and they will be putting more on his shoulders this season and likely wanted some stability in terms of having a point guard for the next few seasons. So the deal certainly isn't as bad as the deRozen deal and may actually be a bit of a bargain if Jrue answer the call this season. I hope he does, Philly fans deserve something to be excited about, especially after the let go of three good players this offseason (Iggy, Brand and Williams).

Plus you like Doctor Who, so you obviously know what you are talking about ;-)

valade16
11-01-2012, 02:38 PM
Explain to me how giving holiday 10mill is bad?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holiday hasn't even topped out yet and is already a top 15 PG...
Hes 22 years old and is only going to get better and its not like 10 mill is star money... As a 2nd option that's a good move..

So $10 mil a year for player who, at worst, is not below average?

rickshaw
11-01-2012, 03:03 PM
So $10 mil a year for player who, at worst, is not below average?

And getting better every year. if they don't slightly overpay now and he has a big year, which they are expecting, he'll ask for the max or close to it. The Celtics did it with Rondo and it worked out. I'm sure there are success and failure stories for it, but it's a calculated gamble. They don't think he is worth 10mill now, but they think he can turn into a top 5-10 PG and they'll have him locked up at a good price.