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View Full Version : Best player in the NBA vs Guy who makes him look 2nd best?



Chronz
10-30-2012, 05:24 PM
Hypothetical team building question

Would you rather have the best player in the game.....
Or the player that EVERYTIME they are matched up against each other, outplays him?

Hawkeye15
10-30-2012, 05:25 PM
best player

Sixerlover
10-30-2012, 05:27 PM
No question best player.

Doesn't matter if Shawn Marion plays well against LeBron if the rest of the team isn't good enough to get us to the big games.

justinnum1
10-30-2012, 05:28 PM
lebron

dee279
10-30-2012, 05:38 PM
Best player

Heediot
10-30-2012, 05:38 PM
It depends who else is on both teams.

mightybosstone
10-30-2012, 05:41 PM
It depends on a number of things and I think this is a misleading question without knowing other variables. Is the second guy still one of the three or four best players in the league? Do they play in the same conference and are they constantly facing each other in the playoffs? If so, I'm probably taking the second guy, because it makes me question if the No. 1 guy IS actually the No. 1 guy in the league if he's constantly getting owned by another player.

Two examples off the top of my head that I recently brought up in another thread are the Russell/Wilt and Hakeem/Robinson arguments. Russell regularly destroyed Wilt despite Wilt supposedly being the better player and Hakeem dominated Robinson in the playoffs despite Robinson always putting up better numbers (legendary 94-95 series).

Because in both of these scenarios, I'd much rather have Hakeem or Russell. They were statistically inferior to Robinson and Wilt, but their defense and competitive will to win made them better basketball players.

naps
10-30-2012, 05:48 PM
If I am starting from scratch it's a no-brainer--Best player.

JasonJohnHorn
10-30-2012, 05:50 PM
The best player. If you pick the other guy, you may not even get a match-up with the best player in the post season and then it will be pointless to even have him.

JordansBulls
10-30-2012, 05:51 PM
Could be like Hakeem and Robinson 1995 where Robinson was probably the better player all season long and Hakeem abused him.

mightybosstone
10-30-2012, 05:53 PM
Could be like Hakeem and Robinson 1995 where Robinson was probably the better player all season long and Hakeem abused him.

*Cough* I already made this reference. *Cough*

Chronz
10-30-2012, 06:04 PM
Could be like Hakeem and Robinson 1995 where Robinson was probably the better player all season long and Hakeem abused him.
I guess but I dont think so because Dream was the better player to me and looked better when they matched up. Remember when dissecting a players value, their playoff level of play is equally important. D-Rob regularly saw his production dwindle in the post-season whereas no one raised their game as demonstrably as Hakeem. Thats why hes the superior center to D-Rob despite superior regular season production. Im pretty sure you've made a thread on this fact before.



So in my hypothetical Im saying the superior player is Dream, but lets say everytime they faced each other it was D-Rob who made him look inferior. Would you still take Dream if D-Rob was the one flipping the script?

I cant really think of a comparison but something like Moses vs Kareem except that doesn't really work because for some of those seasons Moses was the best player in the league, still Moses always gave KAJ a pounding, even when KAJ was the best player in the league.

asandhu23
10-30-2012, 06:16 PM
It depends on a number of things and I think this is a misleading question without knowing other variables. Is the second guy still one of the three or four best players in the league? Do they play in the same conference and are they constantly facing each other in the playoffs? If so, I'm probably taking the second guy, because it makes me question if the No. 1 guy IS actually the No. 1 guy in the league if he's constantly getting owned by another player.

Two examples off the top of my head that I recently brought up in another thread are the Russell/Wilt and Hakeem/Robinson arguments. Russell regularly destroyed Wilt despite Wilt supposedly being the better player and Hakeem dominated Robinson in the playoffs despite Robinson always putting up better numbers (legendary 94-95 series).

Because in both of these scenarios, I'd much rather have Hakeem or Russell. They were statistically inferior to Robinson and Wilt, but their defense and competitive will to win made them better basketball players.

1. What the **** are you talking about? Wilt averaged 28 points and 28 rebounds vs Russell. Russell averaged 14 points and 28 rebounds. Russell had better teams and was able to pull more wins off.


What the numbers show is a decade of head-to-head battles from 1959 to 1969 during which Chamberlain shattered virtually all of the NBA's scoring and rebounding records while Russell collected championships. Over 10 seasons, they played 142 games against each other with Russell winning 85 and Chamberlain 57. The stats show that in those games, Wilt averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds while Russell averaged 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds. Chamberlain scored 50 or more points seven times against Russell, including a high of 62. Russell's highest scoring game against Chamberlain was 37. And, of course, in that decade of squaring off, Russell won nine championships to Wilt's one.

http://www.nba.com/2012/history/features/04/09/season-of-giants-bill-russell/index.html

2. Competitive Will? really? Everyone whoever knew Wilt personally knew he was a fierce competitor.

3. You are neither a sports psychologist, nor a person who knew Wilt or Robinson. stop assuming **** about "competitive will".

Bishnoff
10-30-2012, 06:29 PM
Best player.

xxplayerxx23
10-30-2012, 06:34 PM
Best player.

*Silver&Black*
10-30-2012, 06:41 PM
Best player

lamzoka
10-30-2012, 06:48 PM
i'll take both of them

Chronz
10-30-2012, 07:30 PM
It depends on a number of things and I think this is a misleading question without knowing other variables. Is the second guy still one of the three or four best players in the league? Do they play in the same conference and are they constantly facing each other in the playoffs? If so, I'm probably taking the second guy, because it makes me question if the No. 1 guy IS actually the No. 1 guy in the league if he's constantly getting owned by another player.

Two examples off the top of my head that I recently brought up in another thread are the Russell/Wilt and Hakeem/Robinson arguments. Russell regularly destroyed Wilt despite Wilt supposedly being the better player and Hakeem dominated Robinson in the playoffs despite Robinson always putting up better numbers (legendary 94-95 series).

Because in both of these scenarios, I'd much rather have Hakeem or Russell. They were statistically inferior to Robinson and Wilt, but their defense and competitive will to win made them better basketball players.
Let me ask you something, do you feel prime Dwight is better than Yao overall? If you think yes then just ask yourself if you would rather have Dwight or the guy who made Dwight look small?

If your answer is no, then lets lets pretend Dwight, Durant and Bron/Wade dont exist. CP3 would be the best choice for best in the game right. Well you know how Deron is sorta in that range but not really and how Deron routinely dominates their matchups. Now because of the nature of small sample sizes I only put emphasis on H2H if they happen to play in the playoffs and proves the matchup advantage to be a historical trend. That hasn't proven to be the case here but lets assume for the sake of argument that it has.

Would you rather have CP3 and the boost he gives your team vs 28 other teams, or would you rather have Deron williams and the boost he gives you vs that specific player on top of being an All-NBA caliber player.

Hawkeye15
10-30-2012, 07:54 PM
I will take Dwight over Yao
LeBron over Melo
Paul over Deron

they all fit the case.

RLundi
10-30-2012, 07:56 PM
Best player.

This seems like a no-brainer. I'll take 80 games of best-player talent every day of the week.

torocan
10-30-2012, 08:15 PM
It depends on a number of things and I think this is a misleading question without knowing other variables. Is the second guy still one of the three or four best players in the league? Do they play in the same conference and are they constantly facing each other in the playoffs? If so, I'm probably taking the second guy, because it makes me question if the No. 1 guy IS actually the No. 1 guy in the league if he's constantly getting owned by another player.

Two examples off the top of my head that I recently brought up in another thread are the Russell/Wilt and Hakeem/Robinson arguments. Russell regularly destroyed Wilt despite Wilt supposedly being the better player and Hakeem dominated Robinson in the playoffs despite Robinson always putting up better numbers (legendary 94-95 series).

Because in both of these scenarios, I'd much rather have Hakeem or Russell. They were statistically inferior to Robinson and Wilt, but their defense and competitive will to win made them better basketball players.

Russell didn't destroy Wilt.

What he DID have was an amazing coach who rewrote the book on Team Defense, which working as a team limited the damage that Wilt was able to do.

Despite that, Wilt still scored a ton and rebounded like crazy ... a testament to his ability.

theheatles
10-30-2012, 08:29 PM
I'll take the inferior player

TheIlladelph16
10-30-2012, 08:38 PM
best player without question

Chronz
10-30-2012, 08:39 PM
I will take Dwight over Yao
LeBron over Melo
Paul over Deron

they all fit the case.

Bron vs Melo doesn't but the rest may have some validity to them. I dont buy the CP3 vs Deron one personally, never have. Simply think he had flukish nights but for some reason I feel Dwights struggles were more reflective of Yao's matchup advantage against him.... odd, maybe I have a positional bias but I think its with good reason. Something about interior matchups have always given me a stiffy and I put alot of stock in them.

Mr. LA
10-30-2012, 08:53 PM
lebron

you're right... Lebron usually does outplay Kobe but still....wouldn't you want the best player?

Hawkeye15
10-30-2012, 09:10 PM
Bron vs Melo doesn't but the rest may have some validity to them. I dont buy the CP3 vs Deron one personally, never have. Simply think he had flukish nights but for some reason I feel Dwights struggles were more reflective of Yao's matchup advantage against him.... odd, maybe I have a positional bias but I think its with good reason. Something about interior matchups have always given me a stiffy and I put alot of stock in them.

Some players bring their "A" game against a player they will fact that night because of pride reasons, yet seem to not play that hard the majority of the time. Or, its a statistical outlier.

Interior matchups do need to be recognized with importance, but again, we are now basically saying, if you want to have either the best player, or the player who is inferior but always brings it and outplays that guy when they meet, when is this important? At what level?

IKnowHoops
10-30-2012, 09:27 PM
Could be like Hakeem and Robinson 1995 where Robinson was probably the better player all season long and Hakeem abused him.

Does anyone have the stats for Robinson vs Hakeem in this series?

PurpleJesus
10-30-2012, 09:54 PM
Best player no doubt.

82 games a season, guy who makes best player look 2nd best only plays my team a max of 4 games in the regular season, giving me a whole other 78 games. Playoffs is where it gets a little more tricky...but in the playoffs, I still want the best player in the league on my team.

Quinnsanity
10-30-2012, 10:21 PM
This is actually a really interesting question. I would take the best player, but if it was a situation like maybe Detroit had in the late 80's where they had Dumars to drive Jordan nuts and Isiah as one of the best players in the league I'd reconsider.

kdspurman
10-30-2012, 10:35 PM
Does anyone have the stats for Robinson vs Hakeem in this series?

Here you go.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01

A lot of times people see that series and the dream shake highlights (which I still have nightmares about at times when I see someone do that) and it sums up the head to head matchups for those 2. But that's a very common misconception by the average fan

asandhu23
10-30-2012, 11:02 PM
Here you go.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01

A lot of times people see that series and the dream shake highlights (which I still have nightmares about at times when I see someone do that) and it sums up the head to head matchups for those 2. But that's a very common misconception by the average fan

nice. Robinson was better.

JordansBulls
10-30-2012, 11:13 PM
Does anyone have the stats for Robinson vs Hakeem in this series?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995_WCF.html

SugeKnight
10-31-2012, 01:20 AM
lebron

:nod:

N3TS
10-31-2012, 04:01 AM
Best Player

BULLSFAN0810
10-31-2012, 08:02 AM
Manu Ginobilli ..constantly outplayed or kept up with other 2 guards FOR YEARS. Fisher KILLED OTHER PGs .Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton etc. Its a toss up. but for sake of giving a answer id go with the best player...DERRICK ROSE

Chavacano
10-31-2012, 08:44 AM
Easily the best player.

thenaj17
10-31-2012, 11:31 AM
1 good example in todays league might be Chris Paul and Deron Williams. CP3 was always regarded as the better player but each time they played Jazz v Hornets, D-Wills always outplayed CP3.

thenaj17
10-31-2012, 11:33 AM
Let me ask you something, do you feel prime Dwight is better than Yao overall? If you think yes then just ask yourself if you would rather have Dwight or the guy who made Dwight look small?

If your answer is no, then lets lets pretend Dwight, Durant and Bron/Wade dont exist. CP3 would be the best choice for best in the game right. Well you know how Deron is sorta in that range but not really and how Deron routinely dominates their matchups. Now because of the nature of small sample sizes I only put emphasis on H2H if they happen to play in the playoffs and proves the matchup advantage to be a historical trend. That hasn't proven to be the case here but lets assume for the sake of argument that it has.

Would you rather have CP3 and the boost he gives your team vs 28 other teams, or would you rather have Deron williams and the boost he gives you vs that specific player on top of being an All-NBA caliber player.

Damn you Chronz!! I just put that without seeing your post! lol

BULLSFAN0810
11-01-2012, 04:37 PM
1 good example in todays league might be Chris Paul and Deron Williams. CP3 was always regarded as the better player but each time they played Jazz v Hornets, D-Wills always outplayed CP3.


How bout Cp and Deron are considered better but Rose out plays them both. Is he the best player or the other ?

rockbottom2010
11-01-2012, 05:39 PM
lbj vs kd....lbj all day

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-01-2012, 05:43 PM
This is clearly a post about Eddy Curry and Jamal Magloire.

Kashmir13579
11-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Are they in the same conference?