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View Full Version : James Harden worth max contract?



dnewguy
10-29-2012, 02:11 PM
I am surprised at the level of praise James Harden and the Houston Rocket have been receiving post-trade; I am even more surprised how people forget that Kevin Martin is a solid player, and also a better scorer than James Harden. Now, judging by the players/draft picks Houston gave up to get Harden, the Rockets seem prepared to give him a max contract. Harden is a good player when either Durant or Westbrook is on the floor but he is terrible when neither is playing. Harden is not a franchise player, he just happened to be in a great situation where the little he contributed looked big to outsiders. I disagree with most that Houston got the better of the trade, I actually think OKC are better off now (Martin is a better scorer) and in the future (2 first round draft picks). I am confused as to the direction the Rockets are going as of late, are they rebuilding or are they just adding everyone else's seconds? They previously gave Lin a huge contract and now they trade for Harden? those two players have the potential to give up 15 turn-overs per game.

Is James Harden worth max contract?

waveycrockett
10-29-2012, 02:20 PM
Look at the market value of SG's around the league. That is what determines a players worth. If you do that he is certainly worth a MAX deal. For 95% of the teams in the NBA he is def. worth a max contract.

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 02:24 PM
Look at the market value of SG's around the league. That is what determines a players worth. If you do that he is certainly worth a MAX deal. For 95% of the teams in the NBA he is def. worth a max contract.

I understand the system is broken but realistically, is Harden worth that much? Well, I think one or two players in the league are actually worth max contract (Durant and Lebron)

Giraffes Rule
10-29-2012, 02:32 PM
I don't think you understand what a max contract is.

Baller1
10-29-2012, 02:33 PM
Martin is not a better scorer than Harden. At all.

KnicksorBust
10-29-2012, 02:33 PM
1. His contract isn't a true MAX deal because of his tenure in the NBA.
2. His production offensively was among the top 5% of the player's last season.
3. In 2 years (with Wade and Kobe continuing to decline), I believe Harden will be the best shooting guard in the league.

Yes.

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 02:35 PM
I don't think you understand what a max contract is.

For someone like Harden it will be around 58-60 mill for four years. That means he gets paid 20/yr. Max contract is ultimately determined by number of years in the league...need more explanation?

Baller1
10-29-2012, 02:37 PM
for someone like harden it will be around 58-60 mill for four years. That means he gets paid 20/yr. Max contract is ultimately determined by number of years in the league...need more explanation?

60/4=15

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 02:37 PM
1. His contract isn't a true MAX deal because of his tenure in the NBA.
2. His production offensively was among the top 5% of the player's last season.
3. In 2 years (with Wade and Kobe continuing to decline), I believe Harden will be the best shooting guard in the league.

Yes.

I disagree.

KnicksorBust
10-29-2012, 02:39 PM
^^^ Care to explain. While my lights flicker on and off I could use a distraction. :laugh:

waveycrockett
10-29-2012, 02:39 PM
I disagree.

In 2 years who will be better than him?

I can see MAYBE MAYBE Eric Gordon IF he stays healthy (long shot).

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 02:39 PM
60/4=15

I was including other incentives i.e play-offs

Baller1
10-29-2012, 02:41 PM
I was including other incentives i.e play-offs

Oh, okay.

quiksilver2491
10-29-2012, 02:42 PM
This is silly, of course he's a max player. He's a top 3 SG who plays both sides of the floor and is only 23, injury aside where do you go wrong with having a player like Harden locked up long term?

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 02:42 PM
^^^ Care to explain. While my lights flicker on and off I could use a distraction. :laugh:

By saying Harden will be the best SG iin two years, you are simply saying he's a franchise player...now tell me the potential you see in him that'll make him a franchise player? He will never be as good as Wade or Kobe.

MrfadeawayJB
10-29-2012, 02:43 PM
As of now i wouldnt say a guy who scored around 18 a game last season is worth a max contract. However; houston may be basing this offer on potential

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 02:45 PM
This is silly, of course he's a max player. He's a top 3 SG who plays both sides of the floor and is only 23, injury aside where do you go wrong with having a player like Harden locked up long term?

He is not a good defender. Wade did better against Harden than against any other guard during the play-offs. Harden is also a turn-over machine.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 02:50 PM
Is he worth it? No, but then again, he will get it. I don't think many players are worth a max deal. We just haven't seen him as a #1 yet, and while I think he will be fine, I also don't think he is a franchise player right now. Ideally, Houston would love to get a year long look at him first, and then decide. But that isn't happening.

MrfadeawayJB
10-29-2012, 02:53 PM
Agree with Hawkeye, How many players are really worth a max contract? Maybe 10 tops. Just because you are top 5 at your position does not mean you necessarily deserve the big bucks. Teams will have to use more discretion when the cap rules are tightened because contracts may still be handed out, but teams will be burned in the long run if the player is not worth it.

KnicksorBust
10-29-2012, 02:54 PM
By saying Harden will be the best SG iin two years, you are simply saying he's a franchise player...now tell me the potential you see in him that'll make him a franchise player? He will never be as good as Wade or Kobe.

#1. You are already dodging my argument by not being able to point out which shooting guards are superior.
#2. He doesn't have to be as good as Kobe (one of the 10 greatest players of all-time) to be a franchise player.
#3. I'll tell you exactly what I see in James Harden:

He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_season.html

Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg on 66% TS%. Look at some of these numbers from synergy:

7th in Isolation Offense
9th in PnR Ball Handler
28th in Spot-Up
1st in Off Screen
1st in Hand-Off
3rd in Cutting
87th in Transition

He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. He is 23 years old and has improved every season he has played in the league is fair. To expect regression is fair but to assume his game would fall apart is unreasonable. He spent much of last season carrying the Thunder's bench unit. I find it hard to imagine he'd have more trouble working with the Rockets starting 5.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 02:56 PM
#1. You are already dodging my argument by not being able to point out which shooting guards are superior.
#2. He doesn't have to be as good as Kobe (one of the 10 greatest players of all-time) to be a franchise player.
#3. I'll tell you exactly what I see in James Harden:

He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_season.html

Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg on 66% TS%. Look at some of these numbers from synergy:

7th in Isolation Offense
9th in PnR Ball Handler
28th in Spot-Up
1st in Off Screen
1st in Hand-Off
3rd in Cutting
87th in Transition

He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. He is 23 years old and has improved every season he has played in the league is fair. To expect regression is fair but to assume his game would fall apart is unreasonable. He spent much of last season carrying the Thunder's bench unit. I find it hard to imagine he'd have more trouble working with the Rockets starting 5.

How big of a fall off do you expect with his usage and minutes driving up this year, along with defensive gameplans now shifting to him as the #1?

Swashcuff
10-29-2012, 02:59 PM
Oh, okay.

He wasn't who the **** includes incentives when talking about a base contract. :laugh2:

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 03:02 PM
#1. You are already dodging my argument by not being able to point out which shooting guards are superior.
#2. He doesn't have to be as good as Kobe (one of the 10 greatest players of all-time) to be a franchise player.
#3. I'll tell you exactly what I see in James Harden:

He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_season.html

Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg on 66% TS%. Look at some of these numbers from synergy:

7th in Isolation Offense
9th in PnR Ball Handler
28th in Spot-Up
1st in Off Screen
1st in Hand-Off
3rd in Cutting
87th in Transition

He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. He is 23 years old and has improved every season he has played in the league is fair. To expect regression is fair but to assume his game would fall apart is unreasonable. He spent much of last season carrying the Thunder's bench unit. I find it hard to imagine he'd have more trouble working with the Rockets starting 5.

The mistake you are making is that you are ignoring the impact a great player like Durant has on Harden's offensive exploits. No one doubles harden, he is often open and he benefits from Westbrook and Durants presence. Kevin Martin will look better with OKC than with Houston. I have watched games where Harden struggles when neither Westbrook or Durant is on the floor. The pre-season game he played without those 2 was sad to watch...he was often doubled in that game and he ended up 2-16fg. He is just another Jeremy Lin IMO.

KnicksorBust
10-29-2012, 03:03 PM
How big of a fall off do you expect with his usage and minutes driving up this year, along with defensive gameplans now shifting to him as the #1?

That's the thing. If Lin is healthy I don't see his usage being threw the roof. As someone who caught EVERY game of Linsanity, I can tell you first hand that kid doesn't mind dribbling the ball around for 35 minutes a game. :laugh:

I honestly see Harden landing at 20+ppg and a TS% around 58% which would still put him ahead of the majority of Kobe seasons. Let's forget that Harden has a strong 3pt shot and gets to the foul line. Those factors are huge for effeciency. He's also a good passer which forces teams to be honest with their double teams.

torocan
10-29-2012, 03:04 PM
I understand the system is broken but realistically, is Harden worth that much? Well, I think one or two players in the league are actually worth max contract (Durant and Lebron)

Sorry, but that argument holds no water.

If 95% of the teams will pay him max, then the argument is settled.

In an imaginary world, teacher's get paid more than basketball players and actors.

In the real world, teachers fight to fill their gas tanks while athletes and actors ride around on G6's.

Is he worth $15M? $15M says that he is. And that's all that counts when you're trying to secure a player.

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 03:05 PM
He wasn't who the **** includes incentives when talking about a base contract. :laugh2:

Well I saw it on one website that he could make upwards of 20million a year with incentives. If we are only talking base then he won't even be making up to 15 million because his max contract will be 58 million and not 60.

EDIT: Ohh ok, you got me there. the website said Harden "couldn't pass on the opportunity to earn another $15-20 million"...it didn't say 20 million a year. lol

KnicksorBust
10-29-2012, 03:06 PM
The mistake you are making is that you are ignoring the impact a great player like Durant has on Harden's offensive exploits. No one doubles harden, he is often open and he benefits from Westbrook and Durants presence. Kevin Martin will look better with OKC than with Houston. I have watched games where Harden struggles when neither Westbrook or Durant is on the floor. The pre-season game he played without those 2 was sad to watch...he was often doubled in that game and he ended up 2-16fg. He is just another Jeremy Lin IMO.

My facts > Your subjective opinion and grossly small sample size.

But maybe... just maybe if I had seen that one preseason game it would have totally changed my mind about the 80 game stretch of amazing he put together last season before the finals.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 03:08 PM
That's the thing. If Lin is healthy I don't see his usage being threw the roof. As someone who caught EVERY game of Linsanity, I can tell you first hand that kid doesn't mind dribbling the ball around for 35 minutes a game. :laugh:

I honestly see Harden landing at 20+ppg and a TS% around 58% which would still put him ahead of the majority of Kobe seasons. Let's forget that Harden has a strong 3pt shot and gets to the foul line. Those factors are huge for effeciency. He's also a good passer which forces teams to be honest with their double teams.

I see a problem coming with his patience with the ball. In OKC, where the floor had to be spread because of Durant and Westy, Harden really took his time. With defenses honed in on him now, unless Houston gets some shooters and floor spacers, he won't get that freedom.

But, your numbers are about exactly where I pegged him in the expected stats thread, which means he will still be hovering in the elite scorer category for sure. I just have to see him as a #1 before I can buy into max player type deal. Not that I don't expect him to be just fine, just need to see it.

kdspurman
10-29-2012, 03:08 PM
Is he worth it? No, but then again, he will get it. I don't think many players are worth a max deal. We just haven't seen him as a #1 yet, and while I think he will be fine, I also don't think he is a franchise player right now. Ideally, Houston would love to get a year long look at him first, and then decide. But that isn't happening.

Pretty much this.

We'll see what he does as the guy now in Houston. If people are going to say he is a franchise player we're about to see how far he can carry this team as the leader.

Being talented doesn't always mean you're a franchise player or deserve a max contract.

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 03:09 PM
That's the thing. If Lin is healthy I don't see his usage being threw the roof. As someone who caught EVERY game of Linsanity, I can tell you first hand that kid doesn't mind dribbling the ball around for 35 minutes a game. :laugh:

I honestly see Harden landing at 20+ppg and a TS% around 58% which would still put him ahead of the majority of Kobe seasons. Let's forget that Harden has a strong 3pt shot and gets to the foul line. Those factors are huge for effeciency. He's also a good passer which forces teams to be honest with their double teams.

PLEASE...you guys were all about Lin when he was with the Knicks.

dnewguy
10-29-2012, 03:11 PM
My facts > Your subjective opinion and grossly small sample size.

But maybe... just maybe if I had seen that one preseason game it would have totally changed my mind about the 80 game stretch of amazing he put together last season before the finals.

As a Heat fan, I believe I am more credible assessing harden than you do. After-all I watched every second he played in the finals...he was terrible.

KnicksorBust
10-29-2012, 03:13 PM
PLEASE...you guys were all about Lin when he was with the Knicks.

I don't understand your post. Are you saying that I was bashing Lin in the last post? (I wasn't.)

Or are you trying to lump me in with Knicks fans as a homer who overrates our players? I can pretty much guarantee you have little to no evidence to support that but feel free to try it. :)

Neither of which proves what shooting guards will be better than Harden in 2 years. Still waiting on that...

KnickaBocka.44
10-29-2012, 03:13 PM
As a Heat fan, I believe I am more credible assessing harden than you do. After-all I watched every second he played in the finals...he was terrible.

This is such a bogus statement. You were probably more biased in watching than someone who is a non-heat fan.

jam
10-29-2012, 03:15 PM
Perception is reality.

KnicksorBust
10-29-2012, 03:16 PM
As a Heat fan, I believe I am more credible assessing harden than you do. After-all I watched every second he played in the finals...he was terrible.

Damn you're right. I missed the Finals. :rolleyes: 3 bad game sample size FTW!

Snakeyestx
10-29-2012, 03:23 PM
In short, yes, Harden's worth it. He's got a 6th man of the year award, an NBA finals appearance, and an Olympic gold medal to prove it.

I've sat back and watched K-Mart in decline for the past 3 seasons and to be honest this preseason was a glimmer of potential but nothing like he was in the past.

Nothing.

He's a great guy, and was once a real force in the backcourt but his defense was always lacking, the new flopping rules have taken away most of his arsenal, and his shooting touch has been vauge at best for 2 seasons. He's somewhere in the mid-point of his career while he's surrounded by a bunch of bright-eyed youthful potential. He HAD to know this day was coming, especially after the first failed trade attempt and his discomfort with finding out about it.

Harden fits Houston's new line of thinking on the roster and now the final piece of the "blow-up" is in place. Now it's just a matter of do we yank Taj Gibson the same way or do we hold out and try to lure Josh Smith here next season? :cool:

Baller1
10-29-2012, 03:23 PM
He wasn't who the **** includes incentives when talking about a base contract. :laugh2:

I didn't feel like arguing... Thought I'd just let it go, haha.

Swashcuff
10-29-2012, 03:25 PM
As a Heat fan, I believe I am more credible assessing harden than you do. After-all I watched every second he played in the finals...he was terrible.

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Thegame187
10-29-2012, 03:26 PM
I think you are getting caught up on him being worth Kobe or Wade, that aint the point here.

Batum just signed an 11mill a year deal - Harden is better than him
Hibbert just signed a 15mill year deal
Lopez just signed a 15mill max deal
Ibaka was what the thunder could get for 11mill per year

So yes Harden is worth his 15mill a year over 5 years (his max deal being around 78/5)

The thing that sticks out is he turned down 53/4 which is around the 13.5mill a year (but only 4 years). As a rockets fan that concerns me, as he was happy to walk away from a contender for about 6mill over 4 years (or 1.5mill per season). I agree he has the right to chase the biggest contract he can get and that's fine, he does however give up the right to say junk like "Winning is all the matters to me" - and that is why I am a little concerned that we just signed JoeJohn 2.0.

drobe86
10-29-2012, 03:49 PM
I'd say no. Harden is a very good player, but not max worthy. Harden is a guy that will get 20-22 ppg, and he excels as a pick and roll player, but teams don't understand you cannot break the bank and pay max money for guys like this. There's about 8 guys in the NBA that deserve max deals. Rose, Durant, Kobe, Lebron, Howard, CP3, Griffin, Love.. Those are 5 star players. There's are some that belong in the tier under that and Harden is certainly in that 4 star category.

THE MTL
10-29-2012, 05:12 PM
James Harden is NOT worth 15 million per year. The lockout has made these mid-tier guys contracts even more ridiculous than it was before. I remember guys like Harden, Gordon, etc were getting about 12-13 per million. NOT everyone commanding the max contract.

Seriously the Thunder were giving him 13.5 million per year to be in a GREAT situation. To leave the team, over ~2 million per year is crazy. From a basketball perspective, it makes no sense at all. How much was Harden making before? rookie contract 4 million per year?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-29-2012, 05:14 PM
James Harden > Dwyane Wade

KnickaBocka.44
10-29-2012, 05:20 PM
James Harden > Dwyane Wade

By the end of his next contract, definitely. Which is why he is worth it (his "mini-max" contract)

MassoDio
10-29-2012, 05:22 PM
Kevin Martin may have been a "better" scorer three years ago. He isn't now. Harden is more efficient. He is way younger.

And no, he wasn't terrible when Durant or Westbrook wasn't on the floor.

Is he worth the max? No, not right now. But there are few players who are EVER worth the max. In today's NBA landscape, he is as worthy as most players who receive one though.

He will not be as good in his first year of starting, and the deal may be better for the Thunder in the long run, solely based on what they get out of the draft picks. But by no means is this a bad deal for the Rockets. Harden is a very good player. He is only scratching his surface as a player.

Martin is a better scorer...smh....dumbest thing I have heard in a while. Based on no facts at all.

torocan
10-29-2012, 05:23 PM
James Harden is NOT worth 15 million per year. The lockout has made these mid-tier guys contracts even more ridiculous than it was before. I remember guys like Harden, Gordon, etc were getting about 12-13 per million. NOT everyone commanding the max contract.

Seriously the Thunder were giving him 13.5 million per year to be in a GREAT situation. To leave the team, over ~2 million per year is crazy. From a basketball perspective, it makes no sense at all. How much was Harden making before? rookie contract 4 million per year?

The lockout didn't make mid-tier guys worth that much, the CBA did.

You put in a salary cap for players, put in punitive luxury taxes, put in a spending MINIMUM, and combine that with a limited number of tier 1 superstars with 30 teams in the league and what else do you expect teams to do?

If you're one of the 20 teams that can't land a top 10 superstar... what are YOU going to spend your cap space on to meet your spending minimum? You're NOT going to sign 10 rookies...

As for leaving over $2M per year, easy for you to say "skip the $8M ... oh wait, that's $8M + $3M (5.5% oklahoma state income tax $52M) AND the possible security of a 5th year."

If I was Harden and 23 years old I wouldn't leave $11M+ on the table... not when teams show they'll trade you in a heartbeat to save a few bucks. OH wait, they DID trade him to save a few bucks and some cap flexibility... :facepalm:

Vinylman
10-29-2012, 05:47 PM
The market for a guy like Harden is definitely a max $$$ deal

The real question is does signing him and trading away the assets that they did make Houston a contender anytime soon...

to me the answer is simple... if they don't get an elite FA this summer then they will just become a middle of the pack playoff team if their young players develop...

so is it worth to Houston? Sure, they had to take the chance... will they become contenders? best case scenario is 50/50

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 06:04 PM
The market for a guy like Harden is definitely a max $$$ deal

The real question is does signing him and trading away the assets that they did make Houston a contender anytime soon...

to me the answer is simple... if they don't get an elite FA this summer then they will just become a middle of the pack playoff team if their young players develop...

so is it worth to Houston? Sure, they had to take the chance... will they become contenders? best case scenario is 50/50

Yep. Barring one of their young guys turning into a perennial all star, they are dependent on that max cap money to land another star. Its possible, I have barely looked at who is available next summer however.

astrosmaniac
10-29-2012, 06:07 PM
Dwight, CP3, Bynum, Iggy, Josh Smith are the "big names" as FA this summer

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 06:10 PM
Dwight, CP3, Bynum, Iggy, Josh Smith are the "big names" as FA this summer

the first 3 will most likely re-sign. Iggy? meh, he will re-sign, plus he isn't what the Rockets need going forward, he will be too old by the time the rest of their crew is caught up and ready. Josh Smith is overrated and not a star player imo. Unless he changes his shot selection and starts going to the rim.

Again though, they could use that money to absorb a deal already in place. I have faith in Morey, the Rox still have plenty of young talent they could give away for a big deal as well, along with that space.

Vinylman
10-29-2012, 06:15 PM
Yep. Barring one of their young guys turning into a perennial all star, they are dependent on that max cap money to land another star. Its possible, I have barely looked at who is available next summer however.

not alot

CP3
D12






Bynum
Josh Smith


Al Jefferson
David West
Manu

some ETO guys

Iggy
Monta


of all those guys i would assume the Centers would be the targets...

Again, not much quality and of the quality not much that is gonna move... gotta assume the top 2 are staying put

PS... the breaks are intentional

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 06:23 PM
not alot

CP3
D12






Bynum
Josh Smith


Al Jefferson
David West
Manu

some ETO guys

Iggy
Monta


of all those guys i would assume the Centers would be the targets...

Again, not much quality and of the quality not much that is gonna move... gotta assume the top 2 are staying put

PS... the breaks are intentional

I mean, Jefferson or West make sense, but does that make them a contender? I don't think so. I would expect Morey to be looking to fill that salary via trade, or they can try and catch Boozer off the amnesty cut next summer, should it happen.

haha, I know the breaks were intentional.

Vinylman
10-29-2012, 06:24 PM
the first 3 will most likely re-sign. Iggy? meh, he will re-sign, plus he isn't what the Rockets need going forward, he will be too old by the time the rest of their crew is caught up and ready. Josh Smith is overrated and not a star player imo. Unless he changes his shot selection and starts going to the rim.

Again though, they could use that money to absorb a deal already in place. I have faith in Morey, the Rox still have plenty of young talent they could give away for a big deal as well, along with that space.

bolded is true but unused talent tends to stale and with such limited minutes available for all those forwards i would be shocked if he didn't move some of those guys sooner than later...

Vinylman
10-29-2012, 06:28 PM
I mean, Jefferson or West make sense, but does that make them a contender? I don't think so. I would expect Morey to be looking to fill that salary via trade, or they can try and catch Boozer off the amnesty cut next summer, should it happen.

haha, I know the breaks were intentional.

yeah... trade is kinda the way its gotta happen although your idea about boozer makes some sense if it is cheap enough...

West in the PNR there would be nice though and might not cost more than $9-10 million per year for 3 years

The hard part is they have such a logjam at the 4 does it really make any sense to sign one....

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 06:31 PM
bolded is true but unused talent tends to stale and with such limited minutes available for all those forwards i would be shocked if he didn't move some of those guys sooner than later...

which is why you have to move it sooner rather than later. Morris's value is garbage. Patterson's is whatever. The two rookies, outside teams hesitant on dealing with White's issues, have value, but yeah man, taking talent is the best way to draft nearly every time you get a pick. But that logjam is going to force a player or two to become underdeveloped.

Vinylman
10-29-2012, 06:38 PM
which is why you have to move it sooner rather than later. Morris's value is garbage. Patterson's is whatever. The two rookies, outside teams hesitant on dealing with White's issues, have value, but yeah man, taking talent is the best way to draft nearly every time you get a pick. But that logjam is going to force a player or two to become underdeveloped.

Couldn't agree more on morris and patterson...

have you seen montajarous (sp?)... that is probably the guy to move since he has been so hyped...

not saying the guys they cut were good but 2 were first rounders in the last 2 years... just goes to show how hit and miss it is

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 06:41 PM
Couldn't agree more on morris and patterson...

have you seen montajarous (sp?)... that is probably the guy to move since he has been so hyped...

not saying the guys they cut were good but 2 were first rounders in the last 2 years... just goes to show how hit and miss it is

I watched him a bit this preseason. He can shoot the ball, and play a few different positions, but his defense is lacking. Though, he does appear to have a mean streak. Terrence Jones is the other rookie with a lot of upside.

Corey
10-29-2012, 06:44 PM
I dont think he's worth the max at all, and he's one of my favorite players.

Then again, if JJ and Rudy Gay can get max deals, why not? Teams have to overpay to get talent, and Houston was willing.

ChicagoRox
10-29-2012, 07:02 PM
I think the jury should still be out on Harden. I want to see how he does when he is not the third option on the team. Pros = he can turn to a superstar, Cons = Collapses when the other teams defense focus on him, without having KD and RW. I didn't watch him in the Finals but how would he fare with shut defenders such as Lebron (he would guard the other's team best palyer) guarding him? I still like the deal for Houston though. Also, I believe Houston is the 4th biggest market in the US.

Lakers4life08
10-29-2012, 07:07 PM
dude was garbage against lakers and miami in the play-offs...his midrange jumper and 3 point shot is very bad....he is nowhere near max player 10mln $$ at best

P.S. I will be very suprised if he will shoot 45% or better in this season.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 07:15 PM
I think the jury should still be out on Harden. I want to see how he does when he is not the third option on the team. Pros = he can turn to a superstar, Cons = Collapses when the other teams defense focus on him, without having KD and RW. I didn't watch him in the Finals but how would he fare with shut defenders such as Lebron (he would guard the other's team best palyer) guarding him? I still like the deal for Houston though. Also, I believe Houston is the 4th biggest market in the US.

well, Miami has an elite perimeter defense, but they basically used his patience against him, trapping him hard and forcing him to take step back 3's or get rid of the ball. Not his game.

tr3ymill3r
10-29-2012, 07:16 PM
I think everyone is way off base on this. When a guy who barely played a game last season in Eric Gordon is going to receive a max deal, then the term max deal is irrelevant. Who cares how much he is getting, because he's an asset the Rockets needed and someone the Thunder had to get rid of. It really is a simple as that. The Rockets perceive him as a Superstar whether he is or not. The Thunder did not see him in that light.

ayuntalo
10-29-2012, 07:20 PM
Joe Johnson 2.0

Andrew32
10-29-2012, 09:20 PM
Fcvk no but considering others who have gotten the max or near max he deserves it.

Fnom11
10-30-2012, 12:03 AM
It's going to be beautiful when Harden's career takes a huge flop in Houston.

Heediot
10-30-2012, 08:04 AM
Put it this way. If every team had just one max player, would he be one of them? Is he a top-30 nba player. I would say he is or borderline at worst. So he's worth a max just not in OKC (due to their situation). In this economic landscape he is.

Heediot
10-30-2012, 08:05 AM
I understand the system is broken but realistically, is Harden worth that much? Well, I think one or two players in the league are actually worth max contract (Durant and Lebron)

Kobe is worth it for the revenue he generates.

Dwight, Paul, Durant, and James for sure. I would say Wade also.

Heediot
10-30-2012, 08:07 AM
By saying Harden will be the best SG iin two years, you are simply saying he's a franchise player...now tell me the potential you see in him that'll make him a franchise player? He will never be as good as Wade or Kobe.

There are only a handful of TRUE Franchise players anyway.

blastmasta26
10-30-2012, 09:19 AM
As a Heat fan, I believe I am more credible assessing harden than you do. After-all I watched every second he played in the finals...he was terrible.

Didn't you have a Lakers sig recently?

And if you're really going to bring up the Finals, are you saying it would have been reasonable to say LeBron wasn't elite after his performance against Dallas?

JasonJohnHorn
10-30-2012, 09:32 AM
I had said yes last time I was asked, but i only thought he was eligibler for 10 mill per, it turns out he's eligible for 15 mill per... so no.. he isn't worth that much. Not for what he does on the floor at least.

JasonJohnHorn
10-30-2012, 09:34 AM
I think everyone is way off base on this. When a guy who barely played a game last season in Eric Gordon is going to receive a max deal, then the term max deal is irrelevant. Who cares how much he is getting, because he's an asset the Rockets needed and someone the Thunder had to get rid of. It really is a simple as that. The Rockets perceive him as a Superstar whether he is or not. The Thunder did not see him in that light.

I don't think it's that the Thunder didn't see him as a superstar. I think they did. It's just that they already have two superstars on their team (Durant and Westbrook), and they can't afford a third.

The Rockets don't have any superstars, so they are willing to pay what OKC can't. OKC's trade was, I believe, not a reflection of what they though about Harden's talents, but rather a reflection of their pocket book.

thenaj17
10-30-2012, 10:19 AM
I see a problem coming with his patience with the ball. In OKC, where the floor had to be spread because of Durant and Westy, Harden really took his time. With defenses honed in on him now, unless Houston gets some shooters and floor spacers, he won't get that freedom.

But, your numbers are about exactly where I pegged him in the expected stats thread, which means he will still be hovering in the elite scorer category for sure. I just have to see him as a #1 before I can buy into max player type deal. Not that I don't expect him to be just fine, just need to see it.

Exactly right Hawkeye. It's far too early to assess if Harden is worth this money. I've never liked Harden but know he is a good player. Until we see him as a number 1 option every game, we won't know for sure.

dnewguy
10-30-2012, 10:28 AM
Didn't you have a Lakers sig recently?

And if you're really going to bring up the Finals, are you saying it would have been reasonable to say LeBron wasn't elite after his performance against Dallas?

That was my halloween sig

TyrionLannister
10-30-2012, 10:52 AM
It doesn't matter whether he's worth a max contract, it's whether the market value will result in people giving him a max contract. I'm sure half the teams in the league would give Harden a max contract if he was an unrestricted free agent right now. ****, one could probably argue if not for salary limits, someone would be willing to pay LeBron $60 million per year.

sep11ie
10-30-2012, 10:59 AM
For someone like Harden it will be around 58-60 mill for four years. That means he gets paid 20/yr. Max contract is ultimately determined by number of years in the league...need more explanation?

Nice math fail... And thread fail... And life fail...

monty77
10-30-2012, 11:18 AM
He has gone to Houston to prove that and maybe next year he get a max contract. If Houston don't pay it, he will receive max contract from Phoenix, it's sure, but it would be normal that some teams struggle for a top 3 SG in the league.

Everybody knows that KD and Rusell Westbrooks are top 10 players in the NBA, but nobody knows whether that fact had benefited Harden or not. I have wanted to see him play as a started and probably heŽll be allstart this year.

Both Kobe as Wade are getting old and I don't see any SG more talented than Harden around the league so would not surprise me that he got it. However, I was disappointed by his performance in the final round of playoffs last year so I have so many doubts about his mentality and leadership skills.

Despite this, it's sure that Harder is going to show us more next year than he showed this three years in Oklahoma. Besides, he'll surely improve because he'll have more responsibilities.

jp611
10-30-2012, 11:19 AM
It's going to be beautiful when Harden's career takes a huge flop in Houston.

It's not gonna happen, he's gonna be a star

dnewguy
10-30-2012, 11:20 AM
Nice math fail... And thread fail... And life fail...

I am Mitt Romney, and I approve this message!

Corey
10-30-2012, 11:21 AM
It's not gonna happen, he's gonna be a star

I hope so, but I'm not sold yet. I think he greatly benefitted from the team he played on.

I hope I'm wrong, I love his personality.

jp611
10-30-2012, 11:23 AM
It's not gonna happen, he's gonna be a star

I hope so, but I'm not sold yet. I think he greatly benefitted from the team he played on.

I hope I'm wrong, I love his personality.

Sure he did, but you have to remember he played a lot with the 2nd unit and his efficiency was still insane... His efficiency will take a bit of a dip this year but I think he will be the best SG in the NBA for years to come

dnewguy
10-30-2012, 11:25 AM
Sure he did, but you have to remember he played a lot with the 2nd unit and his efficiency was still insane... His efficiency will take a bit of a dip this year but I think he will be the best SG in the NBA for years to come

If Harden is the best SG, the league is in trouble.

jp611
10-30-2012, 11:27 AM
Sure he did, but you have to remember he played a lot with the 2nd unit and his efficiency was still insane... His efficiency will take a bit of a dip this year but I think he will be the best SG in the NBA for years to come

If Harden is the best SG, the league is in trouble.

He was the 3rd best last year, it's well documented that the shooting guard position in the NBA is pretty weak right now

torocan
10-30-2012, 11:30 AM
He was the 3rd best last year, it's well documented that the shooting guard position in the NBA is pretty weak right now

Let's also not forget that Harden is only 23.

There are ROOKIES in the league right now who are 23, and we all Assume they'll get better with development.

Harden will improve as well I think. And assuming he follows the normal player development curve (prime starting around 25-27), watch out.

dnewguy
10-30-2012, 11:33 AM
Something about the guy tells me he'll be more like Rick Ross in his prime...maybe it's the beard. I still believe he's a Eddy Curry type player, lots of potential but overly reliant on his current skills...he does not occur to me like the type of player that will develop on his game, he seems more like the kind that thinks he is already good enough as he is.

Corey
10-30-2012, 11:34 AM
Sure he did, but you have to remember he played a lot with the 2nd unit and his efficiency was still insane... His efficiency will take a bit of a dip this year but I think he will be the best SG in the NBA for years to come

Sure, but when Durant and Westbrook are off the floor, the opposing team's starters are usually off the floor too.

Harden played about 25% of his minutes with Durant on the bench, and 37% of his minutes with Westbrook on the bench. When Durant/Westbrook are out of the game, the opposing team is usually bringing in their second string of wing players.

Dunno if Harden can sustain the high level of efficiency when 100% of his minutes are played against the other team's best defender when he is the top option.

It's a ''we'll see'' for me.

The dude still struggles driving right. for a max player and #1 option, that's a little worrisome to me. I need to see more diversity out of his game. He either jacks a 3, drives to within 5 feet, or gets fouled. There's not much of an in-between game yet.

jp611
10-30-2012, 11:35 AM
Something about the guy tells me he'll be more like Rick Ross in his prime...maybe it's the beard. I still believe he's a Eddy Curry type player, lots of potential but overly reliant on his current skills...he does not occur to me like the type of player that will develop on his game, he seems more like the kind that like to party during the off-season.

Are you serious :laugh2:

He's a very hard worker and has improved each and every year in the league... He's also 23 years old and will continue to get better

jp611
10-30-2012, 11:36 AM
Yeah I get the we'll see approach, I am just confident in the kid to be the main man, I'm happy we actually get to see it now

ChiSox219
10-30-2012, 11:48 AM
He either jacks a 3, drives to within 5 feet, or gets fouled. There's not much of an in-between game yet.

You say that as if it's a bad thing or his shot selection isnt the best in the NBA. The reason Harden's efficiency could drop is he'll be forced into more mid range shots where he cant possibly match the efficiency of his threes, free throws, and basket attacks even if he was the best mid range shooter.

Chronz
10-30-2012, 12:07 PM
Sure, but when Durant and Westbrook are off the floor, the opposing team's starters are usually off the floor too.
Harden played about 25% of his minutes with Durant on the bench, and 37% of his minutes with Westbrook on the bench. When Durant/Westbrook are out of the game, the opposing team is usually bringing in their second string of wing players.
Well historically, coming off the bench has hurt the efficiency of players so spending more time against bench players comes at the expense of finding an early rhythm and it means playing alongside inferior teammates to keep defenses honest. The tradeoff benefits Harden because hes capable of handling a higher usage, this is the 2nd year (playoffs included) where hes at his best without those other stars. That along with his efficiency overall about as encouraging as you can get.





Dunno if Harden can sustain the high level of efficiency when 100% of his minutes are played against the other team's best defender when he is the top option.

It's a ''we'll see'' for me.

The dude still struggles driving right. for a max player and #1 option, that's a little worrisome to me. I need to see more diversity out of his game. He either jacks a 3, drives to within 5 feet, or gets fouled. There's not much of an in-between game yet.
I dont understand what the complaint is when people say this, for his usage I dont think there has ever been a scorer that efficient, to expect him to sustain his efficiency with a likely 25-30 usage rate is something no one on the world should expect so I really dont see the point of mentioning it.

The player you just described sounds alot like Manu to me. Hitting 3's or getting to the line is a pretty diversified attack considering its a rare combination.


PS What do you think of a Paul Pierce comparison, hes another guy who combine 3's and FT's, he usually has a strong midrange game but it was awful this year.


You say that as if it's a bad thing or his shot selection isnt the best in the NBA. The reason Harden's efficiency could drop is he'll be forced into more mid range shots where he cant possibly match the efficiency of his threes, free throws, and basket attacks even if he was the best mid range shooter.
Sounds like hes describing Manu to me

Chronz
10-30-2012, 12:10 PM
Something about the guy tells me he'll be more like Rick Ross in his prime...maybe it's the beard. I still believe he's a Eddy Curry type player, lots of potential but overly reliant on his current skills...he does not occur to me like the type of player that will develop on his game, he seems more like the kind that thinks he is already good enough as he is.

I cant make sense of this comparison or why your so down on his work ethic. Ive literally never read a post that I couldnt at least get a sense of where your coming from. Even the AI dickriders have more common sense than this. Can you plz explain it for me.

Chronz
10-30-2012, 12:14 PM
PLEASE...you guys were all about Lin when he was with the Knicks.

Another post that makes no sense, something is off with you right now.

dnewguy
10-30-2012, 12:23 PM
I cant make sense of this comparison or why your so down on his work ethic. Ive literally never read a post that I couldnt at least get a sense of where your coming from. Even the AI dickriders have more common sense than this. Can you plz explain it for me.

Ok, i'll try 3rd grade grammar. James Harden is a lazy monster with limited skills.

sagemania
10-30-2012, 12:29 PM
With limited skills? you just proved you are a flatout moron.

Chronz
10-30-2012, 12:46 PM
Ok, i'll try 3rd grade grammar. James Harden is a lazy monster with limited skills.

It wasn't your grammar that confused me.

MassoDio
10-30-2012, 04:27 PM
Ok, i'll try 3rd grade grammar. James Harden is a lazy monster with limited skills.

If that is what you believe, then you are just proving that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I can see believing he has reached his peak. Though I wouldn't agree, that is at least something that would be understandable as a belief. It would still be based on no facts, merely opinion.

But to say he is lazy is just flat out wrong. It's pure ignorance and shows that you are simply knocking the guy because for some reason you don't like him. You are showing your bias.

James Harden has been an extremely hard working player since high school. He wasn't being recruited by top notch schools because of his weight. He worked his tail off to lose weight and prove how good he was. He then was recruited and chose not to go to one of the power house schools, because he would rather go the school that was giving his high school coach a job, since his high school coach always believed in him.

He gets to ASU, and was not considered a player that could make an impact in the conference. He worked hard and became one of, if not the best player in the conference while he was there.

He has improved every year in the pro's to this point as well.

Exactly what part of any of that makes him lazy? Please explain where your idea that he is lazy is coming from. I have a strong feeling that it isn't based in fact either.

sunsfan88
10-30-2012, 04:58 PM
This is silly, of course he's a max player. He's a top 3 SG who plays both sides of the floor and is only 23, injury aside where do you go wrong with having a player like Harden locked up long term?

He plays both sides of the floor? Have you seen his defense?

:puke:

Chronz
10-30-2012, 05:08 PM
This kid went to school down the street from my last job, people that work there say the only thing he could do when he started off was make a corner 3. He wasn't that showboat baller with athleticism up the wazoo, I cant imagine someone like that making the NBA with poor work ethic, much less developing the all-around game that Harden has.


Lazy? Based on what? The lack of rationale/evidence is what confuses me.

dnewguy
10-30-2012, 05:13 PM
This kid went to school down the street from my last job, people that work there say the only thing he could do when he started off was make a corner 3. He wasn't that showboat baller with athleticism up the wazoo, I cant imagine someone like that making the NBA with poor work ethic, much less developing the all-around game that Harden has.


Lazy? Based on what? The lack of rationale/evidence is what confuses me.

I said he is lazy based on how he plays, he is one of those Joe Johnson type players that will shine against certain teams and totally suck against others. A great player should know how/when to adjust...Harden was useless in the finals, he couldn't even adjust in 5 games. That right there tells me he is not a high IQ player, neither does he work on different things to make himself a well rounded player. I can tell you every single thing he will do in a game and I am not even an OKC fan.

MassoDio
10-30-2012, 05:21 PM
I said he is lazy based on how he plays, he is one of those Joe Johnson type players that will shine against certain teams and totally suck against others. A great player should know how/when to adjust...Harden was useless in the finals, he couldn't even adjust in 5 games. That right there tells me he is not a high IQ player, neither does he work on different things to make himself a well rounded player. I can tell you every single thing he will do in a game and I am not even an OKC fan.

This is ridiculous. The guy had a bad series against one of the best defenses in the league. In a series, it is much easier for great defensive teams to hold down a guy, as they are able to adjust to his tendencies and take away strengths.

Not to mention, the guy is 23 years old and was in only his second playoffs. He made HUGE adjustments when they played the Spurs, which is part of what ultimately won that series for them.

Your reasoning is completely asinine. And your "opinion" that he is not a High IQ player is completely wrong. And he already is a well rounded player. So I am pretty sure he has worked on things that have made him a well rounded player.

Is Harden worth a max contract at this point? Probably not. (As most of the players in the league who have received one aren't) But your "analyses" isn't even close to accurate.

rhino17
10-30-2012, 05:27 PM
Haha, Kevin Martin is ****ing terrible. I would have dealt him for a conditional 2nd rounder

rhino17
10-30-2012, 05:32 PM
That right there tells me he is not a high IQ player, neither does he work on different things to make himself a well rounded player. I can tell you every single thing he will do in a game and I am not even an OKC fan.

Basketball IQ is a completely worthless phrase, and it's complete baloney to say he isn't well rounded

JordansBulls
10-30-2012, 05:55 PM
Only perennial superstars are worth max contracts.

Corey
10-30-2012, 06:17 PM
He either jacks a 3, drives to within 5 feet, or gets fouled. There's not much of an in-between game yet.

You say that as if it's a bad thing or his shot selection isnt the best in the NBA. The reason Harden's efficiency could drop is he'll be forced into more mid range shots where he cant possibly match the efficiency of his threes, free throws, and basket attacks even if he was the best mid range shooter.
It isn't a bad thing, but it could be when he's the undisputed number one option.

He still has a ton of room to grow...he's just still a little limited.

Chronz
10-30-2012, 06:19 PM
I said he is lazy based on how he plays, he is one of those Joe Johnson type players that will shine against certain teams and totally suck against others. A great player should know how/when to adjust...Harden was useless in the finals, he couldn't even adjust in 5 games. That right there tells me he is not a high IQ player, neither does he work on different things to make himself a well rounded player. I can tell you every single thing he will do in a game and I am not even an OKC fan.

So your basing your opinion off 5 games in the Finals? Do you know how many great players have struggled in the Finals?

TheLegend
10-30-2012, 06:24 PM
I am surprised at the level of praise James Harden and the Houston Rocket have been receiving post-trade; I am even more surprised how people forget that Kevin Martin is a solid player, and also a better scorer than James Harden. Now, judging by the players/draft picks Houston gave up to get Harden, the Rockets seem prepared to give him a max contract. Harden is a good player when either Durant or Westbrook is on the floor but he is terrible when neither is playing. Harden is not a franchise player, he just happened to be in a great situation where the little he contributed looked big to outsiders. I disagree with most that Houston got the better of the trade, I actually think OKC are better off now (Martin is a better scorer) and in the future (2 first round draft picks). I am confused as to the direction the Rockets are going as of late, are they rebuilding or are they just adding everyone else's seconds? They previously gave Lin a huge contract and now they trade for Harden? those two players have the potential to give up 15 turn-overs per game.

Is James Harden worth max contract?

Martin is not a better scorer than Harden dude.:facepalm:

JordansBulls
10-30-2012, 06:26 PM
James Harden > Dwyane Wade

:speechless:

TyrionLannister
10-30-2012, 06:29 PM
So your basing your opinion off 5 games in the Finals? Do you know how many great players have struggled in the Finals?

Seriously. Not to make the comparison, but James Worthy was HORRIBLE during the 1984 Finals. He sure turned into a good player after that, no?

WhiteSoxGod
10-30-2012, 07:18 PM
Haha, Kevin Martin is ****ing terrible. I would have dealt him for a conditional 2nd rounder

Yeah and we unloaded that huge contract, his defense is terrible. Harden is 23 years old, he is going to get better. His defense is adequate not terrible. He is going to become a more all-0around player now with more minutes.

Chronz
10-30-2012, 07:36 PM
Seriously. Not to make the comparison, but James Worthy was HORRIBLE during the 1984 Finals. He sure turned into a good player after that, no?

It just boggles the mind, I dont understand how ANYONE can surmise laziness/work ethic from simply watching someone play 5 games.

Hawkeye15
10-30-2012, 07:47 PM
It just boggles the mind, I dont understand how ANYONE can surmise laziness/work ethic from simply watching someone play 5 games.

well, you have run into a fan who never watches another team play unless his team is playing them. They have zero frame of reference because of it. If I judged every player and team from the 2-4 times I watched them a year, my evaluations would be all messed up.

sfattahian
10-30-2012, 07:50 PM
Need 2 players for all-PSD fantasy league on yahoo tonight live drive 8:45 pm PST.

Yahoo league ID: 87344
Password: letmein

Anybody welcome

IndiansFan337
10-30-2012, 08:37 PM
He's worth a max contract for sure, but it is going to be tough to build around his max contract and Asik/Lin both making $10+ million in a few years. I think on a good playoff team Harden is ideally your #2 option. But if he is your #1 option, you are going to need a lot better #2/3 options than Lin and Asik.

blastmasta26
10-30-2012, 09:43 PM
Didn't you have a Lakers sig recently?

And if you're really going to bring up the Finals, are you saying it would have been reasonable to say LeBron wasn't elite after his performance against Dallas?

That was my halloween sig

Not sure what that means, especially since Halloween didn't even happen yet but whatever lol.

But you didn't address my second point, as I can see you're still pointing to Harden's Finals performance as an indication of a lack of talent.

Shlumpledink
10-31-2012, 01:41 AM
Simple answer. No.

Long answer. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Gram
10-31-2012, 08:03 AM
No.

Soonerule
10-31-2012, 10:09 AM
Not sure what that means, especially since Halloween didn't even happen yet but whatever lol.

But you didn't address my second point, as I can see you're still pointing to Harden's Finals performance as an indication of a lack of talent.


I think anyone saying Harden has no talent is inaccurate. Yes, he struggled in the Finals, plain as day, but not because of a lack of talent. If there is a lack it is confidence. He tends to be a slow starter when a new situation is placed on him.

I truly believe he may struggle in his new role, at first. But if his new organization will give him some time to get comfortable he will be what they hoped for. If they push or don't back him up during his struggles early the whole thing could turn into a bust.

My thinking comes from watching him closely his first 3 years in the league. In his rookie season, he was a no show throughout the playoffs, his second year he hit the wall in the WCF's, his 3rd year, the Finals. So he is progressing. but this is a huge jump from being the #3 scoring option to the #1.... not to mention starting. He got a few opportunities to start in OKC and really had some problems but that was before he played all summer with the league's best.

My advise to Rocket fans is don't be surprised if he struggles early and to be patient and let him develop. He ain't soup yet....

rockets-fan
10-31-2012, 10:21 AM
He's worth a max contract for sure, but it is going to be tough to build around his max contract and Asik/Lin both making $10+ million in a few years.I think on a good playoff team Harden is ideally your #2 option. But if he is your #1 option, you are going to need a lot better #2/3 options than Lin and Asik.


They will be getting paid 15 million each their third years but the Rockets cap hit will only be 8 mill each for the three years...so no it won't be hard to.

ZarleyZalapski
10-31-2012, 10:58 AM
I think Harden's a solid player but I don't think he's a go to go. Did anyone watch his last game at Arizona St. when they needed to lean on him to advance in the Big Dance. Not clutch.

As for the answer to who will be the best SG in the NBA in two years.. the answer is a no brainer.. Andrew Wiggins.

Nomar
10-31-2012, 10:59 AM
no

Munkeysuit
10-31-2012, 11:16 AM
Lets put it this way, Martin can play an entire game n only average 2 points more than Harden can coming off the bench in limited minutes...I have always said, if Harden was on any other team, he'd be an all star...we WILL see Harden an all star this year I guarantee it!