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MetroMan
10-26-2012, 05:33 PM
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/10/26/lebron-heat-title-defense.ap/?ls=iref:nbahpts

LeBron James won a championship and nothing changed.
Sure, there were a few events. The obligatory champagne shower at his stall in the Miami Heat locker room. The parade through before an estimated 400,000 fans. A pep rally at his high school. And Tuesday night brings the ultimate capper, the ring-and-banner ceremony just minutes before the start of a new season.
Then it begins again, another year, another quest for a title.
Having one title is not completely satisfying for James, who put the he-can't-win notion to rest when the Heat beat the Oklahoma City Thunder in five games for last season's NBA crown. It was a perfect run for the perennial All-Star: Besides getting engaged and winning his second Olympic gold, James walked away with the NBA's three most coveted trophies: MVP, Finals MVP and the championship.
For an encore, he wants more.
"I want to be the best of all-time," James said in an interview with The Associated Press. "It's that simple."
He expressed similar sentiment last year, and the year before that, and probably all the way back to high school in Akron, Ohio. He always wondered if a championship would change that perspective.
He now has his answer.
"Not really, honestly," James said. "I haven't had much time to really just think about what actually happened. At the end of the day, there's still going to be people that say, well, he's not going to be able to win two. He's not going to be able to do it again."
Time will tell.
At 6-foot-8, 260 pounds and blessed with a speed-and-strength combination - "he's a freak," Detroit coach Lawrence Frank said - James is widely considered the best player in the game today. He has won three MVP awards and some opposing coaches say he might keep winning those until voters get tired of selecting him.
But the best of all time, that title will obviously take some work.
So this summer - partly because of the desire to win another ring, partly because of his incessant need to silence doubters, partly because it's just who he is - James took very little time off. He went straight from the finals to the Olympics, then rested briefly before getting back in the gym. James arrived at camp in essentially the same shape as he ended last season.
"He has great perspective on this game and what it takes to be a champion," Heat coach Erik Spoelstra said. "He's one of the most self-motivated players I've ever been around. But yes, he also needs to be stimulated from time to time. It's a joy for our franchise to have this opportunity to be able to work with him."
Last season was a joy for James as well, and not just because of the title.
After the hating-the-Heat phenomenon that followed his decision to leave Cleveland for Miami in 2010 - and the manner in which he made that decision - James said last season was about getting back to the basics of basketball. He surrounded himself with friends and family whenever he could. He tried to ignore at least some of the round-the-clock coverage of all things LeBron. He was going to be happy again, no matter what.
It worked.
The two knocks about James a year ago were that he couldn't close games, that he couldn't rise to the ultimate moments and that he couldn't win a title. He debunked all of that - the 45-point game in win-or-else Game 6 at Boston in the Eastern Conference finals, the one-legged 3-pointer when he was cramping against Oklahoma City that helped the Heat win Game 4 of the finals, and then, the triple-double in the season's last game.
James went to the bench with 3:01 left in that game, and within moments, started dancing and jumping around, waving his arms and grinning.
Happy, personified.
"The best thing about last year is we got all the way to the mountaintop and then we crossed over," James said. "So now I know what it takes to get there and actually get over the top of that mountain."
James is on the verge of entering even more rarefied NBA air.
He enters the season 47th all-time in scoring, with a chance to move up to around No. 30 if he posts average-for-him numbers over the next 82 games. Among active players, he's ninth in scoring, and each of the eight names above him on that list have completed at least 14 NBA seasons. James has completed nine.
"LeBron takes no days off," Heat forward Udonis Haslem said. "After winning the championship, he goes straight to the Olympics, then comes back and is straight into the season. It'd be easy for him to make excuses and take a practice day off. But not this guy. No days off. He's nonstop, he's motivated and he brings it every day."
With James, as most basketball fans know, scoring is just part of the story.
He's 10th among active players in assists. James enters the season with three more assists than San Antonio's Tony Parker - a point guard who has played 117 more games than James. And James' average combined points, assists and rebounds per game (41.7) is considerably ahead of the No. 2 active player on that list, that being Heat teammate Dwyane Wade (36.4).
"LeBron is very talented on the court and he's probably the best player in the NBA," Heat forward Rashard Lewis said. "But I don't think people know his personable side. He's a great guy, loves his teammates, is very sharing, is always bringing gifts into the locker room for his teammates. He's a funny guy, a class clown, but when he steps on the court he's all about the game."
And he insists nothing has changed in that respect.
The Heat are generally considered favorites to win another title this season, though the external expectation does little to faze James. At this point, he knows championships will define whether it was a good year or not, much as it was for the stars before him like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, some of the few on whom the spotlight has shone brightest.
"The target, that doesn't change for me," James said. "I've had a target, champion or not champion, since probably `05. And now that we've won one, the target, it's no different for me."






MetroMan Will Rise Again

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 05:36 PM
There is a difference between saying: "I will be" and ""I want to be". You might want to change the title of the thread because Lebron clearly says: "I want to be the best of all-time"

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 05:39 PM
Losing in the finals twice already and joining a guy that already won a chip and finals MVP without him takes him out of the running.

But he will probably finish Top 10 all time.

rocket
10-26-2012, 05:39 PM
That's what you want him to say. There's nothing wrong with this.

ChiSox219
10-26-2012, 05:40 PM
It's about time.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 05:41 PM
Change the thread title :facepalm:

ChiSox219
10-26-2012, 05:41 PM
that's what you want him to say. There's nothing wrong with this.

+1

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 05:41 PM
Losing in the finals twice already and joining a guy that already won a chip and finals MVP without him takes him out of the running.

But he will probably finish Top 10 all time.

This.

But not probably, he will finish top 10 all-time. He just won't surpass MJ.

Zefflin
10-26-2012, 05:49 PM
There is a difference between saying: "I will be" and ""I want to be". You might want to change the title of the thread because Lebron clearly says: "I want to be the best of all-time"

This.

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 05:50 PM
Imagine the conversation if the guy wins, say, 1 more title with Miami and 1-2 more MVPs, then opts out and goes to the Lakers and wins 2 or 3 more titles, and finishes his career with maybe 7 MVPs trophies. Damn.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 05:50 PM
This.

But not probably, he will finish top 10 all-time. He just won't surpass MJ.

Agree. He WILL finish Top 10.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 05:51 PM
Imagine the conversation if the guy wins, say, 1 more title with Miami and 1-2 more MVPs, then opts out and goes to the Lakers and wins 2 or 3 more titles, and finishes his career with maybe 7 MVPs trophies. Damn.

Why would he want to go to the Lakers. He already ditched one franchise, why try to do the same to a 2nd. He'd be better served retiring in Miami.

The goods
10-26-2012, 05:53 PM
Losing in the finals twice already and joining a guy that already won a chip and finals MVP without him takes him out of the running.

But he will probably finish Top 10 all time.

People want to forget these facts Soooo much, and yet they hold it against Kobe, to me losing in the finals doesn't mean much but at the same time if people hold it against Kobe they should hold it against LeBron.

MetroMan
10-26-2012, 05:54 PM
This.

did you miss your period?

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 05:54 PM
This.

But not probably, he will finish top 10 all-time. He just won't surpass MJ.
He will most definitely finish top 10 all-time, and at least belongs in that discussion already. And if he continues on this current path, wins a few more rings and adds another MVP or two, he'll definitely join the GOAT discussion. I think it would take at least 3-4 rings for people to speak about him in the same breath as Jordan, though.


Imagine the conversation if the guy wins, say, 1 more title with Miami and 1-2 more MVPs, then opts out and goes to the Lakers and wins 2 or 3 more titles, and finishes his career with maybe 7 MVPs trophies. Damn.
I don't even think he needs to join the Lakers to do this. If Wade and Bosh can stay relatively healthy for another 3-4 seasons, there's no reason Miami can't win at least two more rings in that span.

Zefflin
10-26-2012, 05:55 PM
did you miss your period?

My period? I'm a man...man.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 05:56 PM
did you miss your period?

Knock it off.

MetroMan
10-26-2012, 05:56 PM
My period? I'm a man...man.

ran out of vagisil ?

The goods
10-26-2012, 06:00 PM
Agree. He WILL finish Top 10.

He can only finish 5th after Mj, Magic, Kareem, and Kobe. Lol

Zefflin
10-26-2012, 06:01 PM
ran out of vagisil ?

No, I hope you're not trying to be funny.

Da Knicks
10-26-2012, 06:02 PM
top ten

Sactown
10-26-2012, 06:03 PM
There's still time for it to happen

MintBerryCrunch
10-26-2012, 06:04 PM
Knock it off.

Look at this fool trying to be the mediator, just let it happen baby

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:05 PM
He can only finish 5th after Mj, Magic, Kareem, and Kobe. Lol

Since when is Kobe in the top 5? Kobe is barely in my top 10, much less top 5. Lebron will undoubtedly pass him, and I would argue that he already has in a number of ways. He may never get five rings, but he also never played with anybody of Shaq's caliber. Lebron is undeniably the better player than Kobe and has been for sometime.

MetroMan
10-26-2012, 06:06 PM
Since when is Kobe in the top 5? Kobe is barely in my top 10, much less top 5. Lebron will undoubtedly pass him, and I would argue that he already has in a number of ways. He may never get five rings, but he also never played with anybody of Shaq's caliber. Lebron is undeniably the better player than Kobe and has been for sometime.

butt hurt much?

thats what happens when u hop diks

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 06:09 PM
Look at this fool trying to be the mediator, just let it happen baby

Haha okay, let's see how it plays out.

MetroMan vs Zefflin :box:

Mr_Jones
10-26-2012, 06:09 PM
I still feel like he doesn't actually play for Miami. I don't know why.. Just seems like he's still in Cleveland. But I'm ******** so I'll just go **** myself.

b@llhog24
10-26-2012, 06:09 PM
Just make it an argument and you would have done fine by me Bron.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 06:10 PM
Since when is Kobe in the top 5? Kobe is barely in my top 10, much less top 5. Lebron will undoubtedly pass him, and I would argue that he already has in a number of ways. He may never get five rings, but he also never played with anybody of Shaq's caliber. Lebron is undeniably the better player than Kobe and has been for sometime.

This is all-time rankings, the entire span of their career, the entire body of work of both guys. Not the comparisons of the guys the last 3 yrs or so.

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:10 PM
butt hurt much?

thats what happens when u hop diks

Man, you're clever. :rolleyes: It's hilarious when I get treated like a Miami Heat fan for posting pro-Lebron James opinions on this site, when I'm actually a Rockets fan and have no motivations whatsoever for posting my opinions on Lakers or Heat related discussions.

The only way Kobe belongs in the top 10 is because of longevity and career achievements, but as a player, he doesn't belong in the same breath as Lebron or MJ. He was never as versatile or efficient as either of them.

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 06:11 PM
Why would he want to go to the Lakers.
Because he could still be the best player in the game by then and Jim Buss would be a fool not to go after him.

I grew up HATING Barry Bonds because of the battles he had with my team in the early 90s. And yet, when he became a free agent, I wanted my team to do whatever possible to get him because I finally started appreciating what he was doing out there. He was that good, probably deserved 3 or 4 more MVPs than he actually received. LeBron is that way, and the Buss family knows it.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 06:12 PM
I still feel like he doesn't actually play for Miami. I don't know why.. Just seems like he's still in Cleveland. But I'm ******** so I'll just go **** myself.

I think I know what you mean by this. No matter the success of the Heat franchise, organization, fans and the rest of the team, at the end, it'll always ben about LeBron James. Seems with how LeBron promotes himself and how ESPN promotes him, the brand of LeBron James >>> than the brand of the actual Miami Heat franchise.

Baller1
10-26-2012, 06:13 PM
He'll end up either #1 or #2.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 06:13 PM
Because he could still be the best player in the game by then and Jim Buss would be a fool not to go after him.

I grew up HATING Barry Bonds because of the battles his teams had with my team in the early 90s. And yet, when he became a free agent, I wanted my team to do whatever possible to get him because I finally started appreciating what he was doing out there. He was that good, probably deserved 3 or 4 more MVPs than he actually received. LeBron is that way, and the Buss family knows it.

Even so, I'd like to see LeBron retire in Miami.

MetroMan
10-26-2012, 06:14 PM
No, I hope you're not trying to be funny.

I found zef's youtube account

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRf35wCmzWw

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:14 PM
This is all-time rankings, the entire span of their career, the entire body of work of both guys. Not the comparisons of the guys the last 3 yrs or so.

Lebron has been the better player for five years. And I'm aware that longevity and career are what we're discussing, which is the only reason Kobe will make any top 10 lists. Lebron's peak and prime absolutely crush Kobe's and it's not close. And I would argue that Kobe was never the best player in the league at any given time, whereas Lebron has been the best player in the league for probably the last four or five seasons.

Pakman
10-26-2012, 06:14 PM
Lebron said it for the Lulz

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 06:14 PM
He will most definitely finish top 10 all-time, and at least belongs in that discussion already. And if he continues on this current path, wins a few more rings and adds another MVP or two, he'll definitely join the GOAT discussion. I think it would take at least 3-4 rings for people to speak about him in the same breath as Jordan, though.


I don't even think he needs to join the Lakers to do this. If Wade and Bosh can stay relatively healthy for another 3-4 seasons, there's no reason Miami can't win at least two more rings in that span.

He has the opportunity to mentioned in the same breath as MJ but he did give up his chance at surpassing him.

You can't have a better career than MJ. You can only hope to match it and even that is almost impossible. 6-6 in the Finals and MJ was the only player to carry his team's offensive burden throughout his entire career. Kenny Smith said it best, no other player in history had the amount of success that MJ did while being the only player on his team to demand a double and triple team. Add with that what MJ did on the defensive end is just too unbelievable.

Lebron will be top ten all time. It just doesn't get any better than MJ.

But if we're talking most athletic of all-time, Lebron is already there.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 06:15 PM
He'll end up either #1 or #2.

How can he surpass MJ? :facepalm:

KnicksorBust
10-26-2012, 06:17 PM
Since when is Kobe in the top 5? Kobe is barely in my top 10, much less top 5. Lebron will undoubtedly pass him, and I would argue that he already has in a number of ways. He may never get five rings, but he also never played with anybody of Shaq's caliber. Lebron is undeniably the better player than Kobe and has been for sometime.

June 17th, 2010.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 06:18 PM
Lebron has been the better player for five years. And I'm aware that longevity and career are what we're discussing, which is the only reason Kobe will make any top 10 lists. Lebron's peak and prime absolutely crush Kobe's and it's not close. And I would argue that Kobe was never the best player in the league at any given time, whereas Lebron has been the best player in the league for probably the last four or five seasons.

I could debate that, but this isn't the thread for that. This thread is about LBJ, and I don't think he's been as effective or dominant than guys like Magic, Kareem and Michael from start to finish. Those 3 guys will be top 3 for me unless some new kid on the block shows me otherwise.

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:20 PM
He has the opportunity to mentioned in the same breath as MJ but he did give up his chance at surpassing him. You can't have a better career than MJ. You can only hope to match it and even that is almost impossible. 6-6 in the Finals and MJ was the only player to carry his team's offensive burden throughout his entire career.
I disagree. Just because Jordan was 6 for 6 in the Finals doesn't mean he'll necessarily have the better career. If that was the only contributing factor, then Bill Russell would undeniably be the greatest of all-time. I would argue that (like Lebron), MJ struggled in his early career to get past a superior team (Pistons) until he got a supporting cast capable of doing so.


Kenny Smith said it best, no other player in history had the amount of success that MJ did while being the only player on his team to demand a double and triple team. Add with that what MJ did on the defensive end is just too unbelievable.
Yeahhh.... I disagree wholeheartedly with both of these things. You're treating Scottie Pippen like a role player, while he was a top 25-30 all-time player, himself. And as far as defense goes, I would argue that Lebron's impact on defense is probably greater than MJ's.

Baller1
10-26-2012, 06:21 PM
How can he surpass MJ? :facepalm:

By being better.

JNoel
10-26-2012, 06:21 PM
Nothing wrong with what he said, anything that is newsworthy from Lebron or Heat related for that matter will always get blown out of proportion as long as the big 3 are intact.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 06:23 PM
Nothing wrong with what he said, anything that is newsworthy from Lebron or Heat related for that matter will always get blown out of proportion as long as the big 3 are intact.

Sorry to tell you this, but LeBron was already relevant before he joined the Heat. Your organization and fanbase doesn't make him any more relevant tbh. As I said, the brand of LBJ will always be greater than the brand of the Miami Heat. They may be working with each other, but in reality, they are two separate entities.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 06:23 PM
I disagree. Just because Jordan was 6 for 6 in the Finals doesn't mean he'll necessarily have the better career. If that was the only contributing factor, then Bill Russell would undeniably be the greatest of all-time. I would argue that (like Lebron), MJ struggled in his early career to get past a superior team (Pistons) until he got a supporting cast capable of doing so.


Yeahhh.... I disagree wholeheartedly with both of these things. You're treating Scottie Pippen like a role player, while he was a top 25-30 all-time player, himself. And as far as defense goes, I would argue that Lebron's impact on defense is probably greater than MJ's.

But Pippen never demanded a double team. And MJ made Pippen the player he was. You can't deny the fact that MJ carried his team offensively with no other player demanding a double team. There is no denying that Pippen was a big factor defensively. Lebron can't say that and Lebron can't say he made Wade or Bosh. They were who they before he got there. So it doesn't matter what you think?

What are we debating about really?? You can't have a better career than MJ period. Lebron lost his chance when he lost his 1st 2 Finals and hounded up with Wade and Bosh.

And who determines GOAT? Public majority opinion? Outside of winning the next 6 championships in a row, Lebron really has no shot to sway the majority. He can certainly convince the kids of today who never watched MJ but the majority and legends of the game? That is very unlikely.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 06:23 PM
By being better.

llullz, dude, just stick to your boy KD.

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:24 PM
June 17th, 2010.

I love you KOB, but Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as "top 5" unless we're talking about Lakers or shooting guards. I would easily take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird and Duncan over him, and would also take Wilt and Russell. That puts Kobe at 10th, which is the highest he will ever climb. And once Lebron continues to win MVPs and championships, he will easily surpass Kobe, and eventually pass a lot of the guys on that list.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 06:25 PM
I love you KOB, but Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as "top 5" unless we're talking about Lakers or shooting guards. I would easily take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird and Duncan over him, and would also take Wilt and Russell. That puts Kobe at 10th, which is the highest he will ever climb. And once Lebron continues to win MVPs and championships, he will easily surpass Kobe, and eventually pass a lot of the guys on that list.

Kobe is 8th for me right now just ahead of Timmy and Hakeem. Nice to know that you and I have the same 10 players on our list. :clap:

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 06:27 PM
I love you KOB, but Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as "top 5" unless we're talking about Lakers or shooting guards. I would easily take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird and Duncan over him, and would also take Wilt and Russell. That puts Kobe at 10th, which is the highest he will ever climb. And once Lebron continues to win MVPs and championships, he will easily surpass Kobe, and eventually pass a lot of the guys on that list.

Kobe is above Duncan and Hakeem.

And how does Kobe not belong in the same breath as the top 5 like Magic and Larry or MJ if you say Lebron deserves to be in the same breath as MJ now? That makes no sense and no matter how you try to support that idea you'll continually contradict yourself.

Kobe is in the same breath as Magic and Larry.

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:31 PM
But Pippen never demanded a double team. So it doesn't matter what you think?
WTF are you talking about? Did you even watch Pippen play? Aside from Lebron, Pippen was probably the greatest point forward in the history of the game. He consistently posted 20/5/6 for much of his career (not counting the fact that he's arguably the greatest wing defender in the history of the NBA).


What are we debating about really?? You can't have a better career than MJ period. Lebron lost his chance when he lost his 1st 2 Finals and hounded up with Wade and Bosh.
Lol. Career arguments are always going to be a moot point. So, yes, technically you can have a greater career than MJ. And the whole "Lebron couldn't win without Wade and Bosh" argument is completely BS when you consider that MJ couldn't win one until Pippen came into his prime or the fact that other all time greats also played with all-time great players (Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, etc.).


And who determines GOAT? Public majority opinion? Outside of winning the next 6 championships in a row, Lebron really has no shot to sway the majority. That is very unlikely.
Lebron doesn't need to win seven championships to surpass MJ, because championships are not the only contributing factor to a player's career. If they were, than Robert Horry would have technically had a greater career than Jordan.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 06:35 PM
WTF are you talking about? Did you even watch Pippen play? Aside from Lebron, Pippen was probably the greatest point forward in the history of the game. He consistently posted 20/5/6 for much of his career (not counting the fact that he's arguably the greatest wing defender in the history of the NBA).


Lol. Career arguments are always going to be a moot point. So, yes, technically you can have a greater career than MJ. And the whole "Lebron couldn't win without Wade and Bosh" argument is completely BS when you consider that MJ couldn't win one until Pippen came into his prime or the fact that other all time greats also played with all-time great players (Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, etc.).


Lebron doesn't need to win seven championships to surpass MJ, because championships are not the only contributing factor to a player's career. If they were, than Robert Horry would have technically had a greater career than Jordan.

Wtf am I talking about??? I watched every Bulls game in the late 80's and throughout the 90's.

And why are you so defensive? You're not convincing anybody of this BS. I'm done now that you keep throwing that stupid Robert Horry comparison. You know the difference but you won't agknowledge it.

This is pointless. Lebron isn't there yet and here you are putting him there as if he's already surpassed MJ :facepalm:
.
It's a waste of my time and energy debating with people like you

BKLYNpigeon
10-26-2012, 06:37 PM
all said and done Lebron will probably win a few titles, but I bet you he does it with 3-4 teams. The guy is a ring chaser and that will always be remembered that way.

todu82
10-26-2012, 06:40 PM
Lebron's a great player and he's going to be 1 of the all-time great but I doubt he eclipse Jordan, Jabbar or Chamberlain as the best player ever.

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 06:41 PM
Jordan's at the top because of all the great players he prevented from winning it all. Six rings, the number itself, doesn't really matter. MJ ended the reign of Magic Bird and Isiah, and became the #1 roadblock in the 90s. If James ends Bryant's reign that same way and becomes that modern-day roadblock and prevents guys like Howard, Durant, Rose, Anthony, Williams, Paul, and Nash from winning anything from here until the end of his prime, he will definitely have an argument for the top spot next to Jordan, no matter how many bad 'Decisions' he makes.

HouRealCoach
10-26-2012, 06:44 PM
Losing in the finals twice already and joining a guy that already won a chip and finals MVP without him takes him out of the running.

But he will probably finish Top 10 all time.

Then again playing for a franchise that expects you to win a championship with Mo Williams as the second best player and forcing you to play 1 on 5 offense doesn't help either... At the end of the day he did what he had to do and has a Season MVP, NBA Title, & a Finals MVP to show for it

I say at least top 5

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:44 PM
Kobe is above Duncan and Hakeem.

And how does Kobe not belong in the same breath as the top 5 like Magic and Larry or MJ if you say Lebron deserves to be in the same breath as MJ now? That makes no sense and no matter how you try to support that idea you'll continually contradict yourself.

Kobe is in the same breath as Magic and Larry.

How have I contradicted myself? If you want to know why Kobe doesn't belong in the same discussion as Magic or Bird, you just need to consider two factors:

1. Advanced stats. Magic and Bird both averaged over .200 in WS/48 over their careers and consistently topped that number, whereas Kobe's early and later seasons have hurt him (.184 career WS/48). Kobe's also nowhere near as efficient a scorer as Bird or Magic with his career .554 TS/%. And while Kobe was a very good defensive player and a pretty good distributor, he can't touch Magic's passing or Bird's defense. Bird was also a better distributor.

2. MVPs/Best Player Argument. Magic and Bird both won three MVPs and were consistently 1a and 1b as the league's best players in the 80s. You could perhaps make an argument for 2005-2006, but Kobe was probably never the greatest player in the league at any time. Shaq and Duncan were clearly better earlier in his career, while Lebron has been the best later in his career. Bryant's one MVP was more of a lifetime achievement award than a legit MVP.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 06:45 PM
I disagree. Just because Jordan was 6 for 6 in the Finals doesn't mean he'll necessarily have the better career. If that was the only contributing factor, then Bill Russell would undeniably be the greatest of all-time. I would argue that (like Lebron), MJ struggled in his early career to get past a superior team (Pistons) until he got a supporting cast capable of doing so.


Yeahhh.... I disagree wholeheartedly with both of these things. You're treating Scottie Pippen like a role player, while he was a top 25-30 all-time player, himself. And as far as defense goes, I would argue that Lebron's impact on defense is probably greater than MJ's.

He isn't going to pass MJ on this considering he would have already lost 3 series with HCA while MJ none and also how MJ took an organization that was a losing organization and turned them into a dynasty. Lebron went to play with guys who got it done as the man so that will never help him in comparison to someone like MJ. Also that MJ is as statistically dominant if not more so since he is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.
Not to mention defensively it isn't even close. Lebron had guys at his own position who averaged more ppg in a series than he did and even at better FG% while MJ never even had any other player on the floor average more than him.

Jordan didn't need 11 rings because he was on a completely different level than Russell statistically (and also Russell won 25 series to get 11 rings, MJ had to win 24 series to just get 6 rings, so the situation was not comparable here.)

MJ didn't need to average 50 ppg like Wilt because he was on a completely different level than Wilt in terms of accolades/titles (at least 100% more of the important accolades/titles - MVP's/FMVP's/titles etc.).

Lebron, however, cannot possibly be on another level from Jordan statistically
(he may end up being as good (right now MJ is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs) if he keeps up current/similar production in the regular and postseasons for another 6-8 years; it would be a marginal difference, however, unlike Russell/MJ).
Lebron also cannot amass enough accolades/titles to put himself on another level from MJ (5 MVP's, 10-11 top 3 MVP finishes, 6 FMVP's, 6 titles, defensive recognition etc.), so he would have to differentiate himself some other way - namely, statistically - but as we've seen, he really can't do that either. So yeah, he does have to basically match or exceed Jordan in all of these areas (accolades/titles, production, defensive impact), since it's unlikely that he can do enough in one of those categories to completely shatter what Jordan did in that category so as to make his sum total case for GOAT stronger overall.

Few people really grasp the enormity of what Jordan accomplished.

So to me things if the debate ever got close, MJ going 24-0 in series with HCA and always winning as the man and not having anyone on his teams who won league or finals mvp and also taking a franchise that never won before prior to him arriving and turning it into a dynasty is what I would consider a tie breaker sort to speak.

Remember the HCA, Taking an organization that never won before, etc only matters if the players are close to the same level.
So Isiah Thomas doing it on the Pistons doesn't mean much when comparing him to Magic Johnson or Larry Bird, but in comparison to someone like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, etc it does.

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:51 PM
Wtf am I talking about??? I watched every Bulls game in the late 80's and throughout the 90's.

And why are you so defensive? You're not convincing anybody of this BS. I'm done now that you keep throwing that stupid Robert Horry comparison. You know the difference but you won't agknowledge it.

This is pointless. Lebron isn't there yet and here you are putting him there as if he's already surpassed MJ :facepalm:
.
It's a waste of my time and energy debating with people like you

Lol. I'm not the defensive one, sir. I believe that honor belongs to you. And I'm not in any way saying that Lebron deserves to be in the same discussion as MJ yet. But I also don't think it's fair to say that MJ is completely untouchable and always will be. I think Lebron has a lot of work to do, but he's on a path to at least be in the conversation as possibly the GOAT.

MJ is first in career PER and WS/48, but Lebron is second and sixth in those categories, respectively. He won five MVPs, Lebron has won three. the only area MJ clearly surpasses Lebron in substantially is rings. With time, if Lebron can come close to MJ in some of these categories, he could potentially be in the discussion.

KnicksorBust
10-26-2012, 06:51 PM
I love you KOB, but Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as "top 5" unless we're talking about Lakers or shooting guards. I would easily take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird and Duncan over him, and would also take Wilt and Russell. That puts Kobe at 10th, which is the highest he will ever climb. And once Lebron continues to win MVPs and championships, he will easily surpass Kobe, and eventually pass a lot of the guys on that list.

I don't care who you would "take over him." If you stack up career resumes, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Bird, Duncan all drift slowly to the back of the room.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 06:52 PM
he isn't going to pass mj on this considering he would have already lost 3 series with hca while mj none and also how mj took an organization that was a losing organization and turned them into a dynasty. Lebron went to play with guys who got it done as the man so that will never help him in comparison to someone like mj. Also that mj is as statistically dominant if not more so since he is #1 all time in per in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in ws/per 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.
Not to mention defensively it isn't even close. Lebron had guys at his own position who averaged more ppg in a series than he did and even at better fg% while mj never even had any other player on the floor average more than him.

Jordan didn't need 11 rings because he was on a completely different level than russell statistically (and also russell won 25 series to get 11 rings, mj had to win 24 series to just get 6 rings, so the situation was not comparable here.)

mj didn't need to average 50 ppg like wilt because he was on a completely different level than wilt in terms of accolades/titles (at least 100% more of the important accolades/titles - mvp's/fmvp's/titles etc.).

Lebron, however, cannot possibly be on another level from jordan statistically
(he may end up being as good (right now mj is #1 all time in per in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in ws/per 48 minutes in the season and playoffs) if he keeps up current/similar production in the regular and postseasons for another 6-8 years; it would be a marginal difference, however, unlike russell/mj).
Lebron also cannot amass enough accolades/titles to put himself on another level from mj (5 mvp's, 10-11 top 3 mvp finishes, 6 fmvp's, 6 titles, defensive recognition etc.), so he would have to differentiate himself some other way - namely, statistically - but as we've seen, he really can't do that either. So yeah, he does have to basically match or exceed jordan in all of these areas (accolades/titles, production, defensive impact), since it's unlikely that he can do enough in one of those categories to completely shatter what jordan did in that category so as to make his sum total case for goat stronger overall.

Few people really grasp the enormity of what jordan accomplished.

So to me things if the debate ever got close, mj going 24-0 in series with hca and always winning as the man and not having anyone on his teams who won league or finals mvp and also taking a franchise that never won before prior to him arriving and turning it into a dynasty is what i would consider a tie breaker sort to speak.

Remember the hca, taking an organization that never won before, etc only matters if the players are close to the same level.
So isiah thomas doing it on the pistons doesn't mean much when comparing him to magic johnson or larry bird, but in comparison to someone like steve nash, jason kidd, gary payton, etc it does.

this. All of this.

Evolution23
10-26-2012, 06:54 PM
There is a difference between saying: "I will be" and ""I want to be". You might want to change the title of the thread because Lebron clearly says: "I want to be the best of all-time"

This. Close thread. All you people need to go back and take English 101.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 06:55 PM
Lol. I'm not the defensive one, sir. I believe that honor belongs to you. And I'm not in any way saying that Lebron deserves to be in the same discussion as MJ yet. But I also don't think it's fair to say that MJ is completely untouchable and always will be. I think Lebron has a lot of work to do, but he's on a path to at least be in the conversation as possibly the GOAT.

MJ is first in career PER and WS/48, but Lebron is second and sixth in those categories, respectively. He won five MVPs, Lebron has won three. the only area MJ clearly surpasses Lebron in substantially is rings. With time, if Lebron can come close to MJ in some of these categories, he could potentially be in the discussion.

MVP's?? Really?? Who votes for MVP's? The press/sports writers? And the MVP doesn't equate to being the best player otherwise MJ would have 10 and Shaq would have a lot more than 1. :facepalm:

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 06:55 PM
Honestly I don't really see how LeBron passes MJ. He has a LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG way to go in order to do so IMO. This post is in relation to the debate going on right now not the thread. The OP and the thread title is utter garbage.

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 06:56 PM
I don't care who you would "take over him." If you stack up career resumes, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Bird, Duncan all drift slowly to the back of the room.

Expand on this "career resume"

5ass
10-26-2012, 06:56 PM
He will never pass the scalabrine.

HouRealCoach
10-26-2012, 06:58 PM
I see these posts.. Let it be known that Jordan is on another level from any other person that has ever picked up a basketball in their life

I don't see anyone in the league now, college, or high school recruits being better than him right now or in the near future.. The guy was that good

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:58 PM
JB, I'm not going to address everything you just said, because I essentially just did that, more or less. But I completely understand what you're saying. Right now, MJ is the GOAT because of the accolades, titles and statistical dominance. BUT, I think Lebron is young enough that if he can touch MJ on some of those areas, he could at least belong in the same discussion. He's got a ways to go in terms of titles and MVPs, but he's right behind MJ in several advanced statistical categories, which he will likely continue to improve during his prime.

One thing to consider is that MJ also retired fairly early, which probably contributed to his extremely high PER and WS/48 career numbers. Had he continued to play in the late 90s into his late 30s like Lebron probably will, I think Lebron would currently have the lead in some of those advanced stat categories.

HouRealCoach
10-26-2012, 06:59 PM
People are actually agreeing with JordanBulls in this thread lol

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 06:59 PM
I don't care who you would "take over him." If you stack up career resumes, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Bird, Duncan all drift slowly to the back of the room.

If you say "screw advanced stats," then it's easy to put Kobe in the top 5. However, I don't. That's why he's barely in my top 10.

More-Than-Most
10-26-2012, 06:59 PM
Losing in the finals twice already and joining a guy that already won a chip and finals MVP without him takes him out of the running.

But he will probably finish Top 10 all time.

I Disagree....If he does say win 5 more titles and continues his ridiculous statistical output it will be interesting. He is an unstoppable player

Losoway
10-26-2012, 07:00 PM
lebron this season is gonna be scary

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 07:00 PM
If you say "screw advanced stats," then it's easy to put Kobe in the top 5. However, I don't. That's why he's barely in my top 10.

Not really though. I mean really what does Kobe have over Shaq, TD and Wilt? Rings? That's the only argument I see here.

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 07:01 PM
MVP's?? Really?? Who votes for MVP's? The press/sports writers? And the MVP doesn't equate to being the best player otherwise MJ would have 10 and Shaq would have a lot more than 1. :facepalm:

But you're completely missing the point. Both Magic and Bird WERE the greatest players in the league for an extended period of time and were deserving of their MVPs. Kobe never was. To ignore this point is just flat out ignorant.

mightybosstone
10-26-2012, 07:03 PM
Not really though. I mean really what does Kobe have over Shaq, TD and Wilt? Rings? That's the only argument I see here.

Basically rings and some basic stats (other than Wilt, obviously). It's certainly easier to make an argument for Kobe in the top five without advanced stats, is the point I was trying to make.

HouRealCoach
10-26-2012, 07:04 PM
I don't care who you would "take over him." If you stack up career resumes, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Bird, Duncan all drift slowly to the back of the room.

Please explain in depth... The floor is ALL yours lol

Chronz
10-26-2012, 07:05 PM
Losing in the finals twice already and joining a guy that already won a chip and finals MVP without him takes him out of the running.

But he will probably finish Top 10 all time.

LMFAO

Right, because its always better to lose in R.1 than lose in the Finals.

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 07:05 PM
Please explain in depth... The floor is ALL yours lol

Indeed

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 07:07 PM
LMFAO

Right, because its always better to lose in R.1 than lose in the Finals.

I am your Kryptonite as out of all the posts in this thread, you chose to respond to mine.


I keep you awake at night my friend. I give you nightmares. I am your worst nightmare. You haven't had a good night's of sleep since I joined PSD last December.

You're Welcome.

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 07:07 PM
LMFAO

Right, because its always better to lose in R.1 than lose in the Finals.

Do you think losing in the Finals twice and in the manner in which he did hurts his case in any way?

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 07:07 PM
I said it after the finals, I give LeBron a slim chance of passing Jordan. Is the chance there? yes. Do I expect him to actually pass Jordan? no, I don't. I think he will end up top 3 all time however.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 07:08 PM
Do you think losing in the Finals twice and in the manner in which he did hurts his case in any way?

The San Antonio one should have zip bearing. How on earth LeBron was able to get that team there, that young, is amazing. The Spurs simply formed a wall around the young Bron, and the rest of the team was exposed for what they were. Garbage. Against a seasoned, veteran, still in their primes TD, MG, and Parker, along with maybe the best coach ever.

The Dallas one hurts him.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 07:08 PM
JB, I'm not going to address everything you just said, because I essentially just did that, more or less. But I completely understand what you're saying. Right now, MJ is the GOAT because of the accolades, titles and statistical dominance. BUT, I think Lebron is young enough that if he can touch MJ on some of those areas, he could at least belong in the same discussion. He's got a ways to go in terms of titles and MVPs, but he's right behind MJ in several advanced statistical categories, which he will likely continue to improve during his prime.

One thing to consider is that MJ also retired fairly early, which probably contributed to his extremely high PER and WS/48 career numbers. Had he continued to play in the late 90s into his late 30s like Lebron probably will, I think Lebron would currently have the lead in some of those advanced stat categories.
Longevity will play a role no doubt. JB doesn't want to hear it but that gives him a shot, the unknown of Bron makes it a possibility, the thorough domination MJ had makes it unlikely.

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 07:11 PM
The San Antonio one should have zip bearing. How on earth LeBron was able to get that team there, that young, is amazing. The Spurs simply formed a wall around the young Bron, and the rest of the team was exposed for what they were. Garbage. Against a seasoned, veteran, still in their primes TD, MG, and Parker, along with maybe the best coach ever.

The Dallas one hurts him.

Exact same way I feel I would like to know if Chronz thinks the same.

THE MTL
10-26-2012, 07:14 PM
He'll never pass Michael Jordan. But I do see him in the Top 5 NBA player of all time.

HouRealCoach
10-26-2012, 07:15 PM
I am your Kryptonite as out of all the posts in this thread, you chose to respond to mine.


I keep you awake at night my friend. I give you nightmares. I am your worst nightmare. You haven't had a good night's of sleep since I joined PSD last December.

You're Welcome.

You gotta admit though... You were a bit overboard with that comment :(

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 07:15 PM
LeBron's 2007 season will be remembered more for his performance against Detroit as a 22-year old than for his team getting bodyslammed by a juggernaut Spurs team.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 07:17 PM
I am your Kryptonite as out of all the posts in this thread, you chose to respond to mine.


I keep you awake at night my friend. I give you nightmares. I am your worst nightmare. You haven't had a good night's of sleep since I joined PSD last December.

You're Welcome.

I just started reading the thread, your posts are the most hilarious. EZ to call out

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 07:17 PM
You gotta admit though... You were a bit overboard with that comment :(

The fact that LeBron joined a guy who already won a chip without him and that he already lost 2 finals?

I weight heavily against losing in the finals. That's just one of many reasons why I would never put Kobe over MJ. I may be a homer at times, but even I can't forget Kobe's debacle in the 04 Finals against Detroit.

Finals losses and you lose them weigh heavily to me.

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 07:17 PM
LeBron's 2007 season will be remembered more for his performance against Detroit as a 22-year old than for his team getting bodyslammed by a juggernaut Spurs team.

Today? Yeah for sure. 10 years from now however... not really.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 07:17 PM
I just started reading the thread, your posts are the most hilarious. EZ to call out

Why thank you. :)

Chronz
10-26-2012, 07:20 PM
Do you think losing in the Finals twice and in the manner in which he did hurts his case in any way?

Yes but when a run to the Finals is something thats being held against you, thats when you know your having a great career and in the grand scheme of things its overblown. Would you rather take that run to the Finals, or deal with your star being retired? Bron has time to make up for his losses, its unlikely he surpasses MJ but I can see him as high as 2.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 07:22 PM
Yes but when a run to the Finals is something thats being held against you, thats when you know your having a great career and in the grand scheme of things its overblown. Would you rather take that run to the Finals, or deal with your star being retired? Bron has time to make up for his losses, its unlikely he surpasses MJ but I can see him as high as 2.

I know I have said the mere fact that Kobe's numbers falling short, and that he has lost in the finals already means he has zero chance at MJ. LeBron's numbers are basically there, well close enough, but the Mavs loss in particular is not helping him. I am with you. He has a CHANCE, but its a small one. I figure he finishes top 3 of all time however, barring injuries.

theheatles
10-26-2012, 07:24 PM
LeBron is going to sign another max contract with the Heat, but at the end of that contract at the age of 35 LeBron is going to buy the Cavs and become the Owner/GM/Superstar Player/Head Coach

Aust
10-26-2012, 07:25 PM
The comparisons he's been receiving all offseason are ridiculous.

The NBA: Where winning 1 ring gets you compared to Jordan.

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 07:27 PM
The comparisons he's been receiving all offseason are ridiculous.

The NBA: Where winning 1 ring gets you compared to Jordan.

He was compared to MJ before even stepping foot into the league however.

HouRealCoach
10-26-2012, 07:28 PM
The fact that LeBron joined a guy who already won a chip without him and that he already lost 2 finals?

I weight heavily against losing in the finals. That's just one of many reasons why I would never put Kobe over MJ. I may be a homer at times, but even I can't forget Kobe's debacle in the 04 Finals against Detroit.

Finals losses and you lose them weigh heavily to me.

Well Jordan, Duncan, & Hakeem are the only ones that come to mind once you think of never losing in the finals and winning multiples

LeBron got drafted to a team with Ilgauskas.. Please let me know of another top 10 player that could have won a title with Mo Williams as the second best player because Magic, Bird, & Kobe already had more then enough help in their rookie years to grow on

Aust
10-26-2012, 07:30 PM
He was compared to MJ before even stepping foot into the league however.

Exactly. It's :facepalm: worthy

ESPN actually had the nerve to put up a "Greatest Basketball player of all time" poll. MJ only got 57%, Lebron actually got 25%, it's insane.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 07:30 PM
The comparisons he's been receiving all offseason are ridiculous.

The NBA: Where winning 1 ring gets you compared to Jordan.

His ridiculous numbers (2nd only to Jordan), MVP's, and pure dominance have been getting him compared a few years now. 27, wins a ring, MVP, Finals MVP, and confident as ever, sorry, its going to be talked about.

btw, rings don't define a player. Its how they win that matters.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 07:31 PM
are Laker fans pissed because unless LeBron gets hit by a truck or tears something, he is eventually going to shoot right by Kobe?

Serious question. However, I don't expect a serious answer.

SwatTeam
10-26-2012, 07:33 PM
[sigh] why do these threads always pop up? It's like the annoying pop ads that come up when I try to watch porn OR it's like the patients I see at the free health clinics who have genital herpes. Basically, you guys remind me of herpes but I digress. I will offer you my opinion just like I offer my patients advice against high risk activities. I don't expect you to listen and I definitely expect to see you back in my clinic with full blown AIDS aka making this same thread again in a week.

Can Lebron eclipse Jordan? Maybe.
Will he? Most likely not.
How can we know for sure? Only time will tell.
Lets say Lebron becomes the 2nd or 3rd greatest player of all time. What's wrong with that? Why can't people appreciate the greatness he brings to the floor every night and stop b#%^>ing and moaning? Why get caught up in hypotheticals? if someone told you, you are possibly watching a player that might be greater than Magic and Bird, wouldn't that be enough to get you excited instead of angry and full of hate for no reason? Again, we won't know anything until Lebron is done with basketball forever and by then you would have missed watching something truly amazing by b{}#%ing and moaning the whole time trying to figure out if he is the GOAT. Just sit back, enjoy the show, and stop having sex with dirty hookers.

Aust
10-26-2012, 07:34 PM
I don't care if he shoots past Kobe(which he will).

The hype is becoming so thick it's starting to take physical form.
The happiest time of the year for me was the last 2 months where I didn't have to hear about Dwight or Lebron 50x a day.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 07:36 PM
I don't care if he shoots past Kobe(which he will).

The hype is becoming so thick it's starting to take physical form.
The happiest time of the year for me was the last 2 months where I didn't have to hear about Dwight or Lebron 50x a day.

Well, you can always choose to stay away from sports sites and social media. Trust me, it comes in waves. Soon enough, when the season starts, there will be other things to talk about. Right now we have fans posting about Eddie Curry, MIP award, and every team is 0-0 with championship aspirations.

All will be well in a week haha.

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 07:36 PM
Today? Yeah for sure. 10 years from now however... not really.
You think fans/basketball historians will forget about it? The NBA, maybe more than any other pro sport besides boxing, is built on great individual performances... replaying them over and over for the next generation to compare and argue (Wilt's 100, Magic playing center, 'Nique vs Bird, The Flu Game, Iverson's 48 in '01 Finals, etc). I think this generation will put LeBron's performance right up there.

Gagan136
10-26-2012, 07:37 PM
Who knows, he is playing at an insane level and to me he is already top 20 almost top 15, and I can all but guarantee that he gets in the top 10 by the time he retires.. the question is how much will losing some of his athleticism affect his game when he is 31-32. Either way its good to know he wants to be the best and just shows his confidence right now.

Aust
10-26-2012, 07:37 PM
Well, you can always choose to stay away from sports sites and social media. Trust me, it comes in waves. Soon enough, when the season starts, there will be other things to talk about. Right now we have fans posting about Eddie Curry, MIP award, and every team is 0-0 with championship aspirations.

All will be well in a week haha.

I'm camping out in the NFL forums. I love it there :hi5:

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 07:38 PM
I'm camping out in the NFL forums. I love it there :hi5:

hahaha

cuttydoesit6
10-26-2012, 07:39 PM
not gonna happen, nobody will surpass mj.

Hoopsadvocate
10-26-2012, 07:41 PM
are Laker fans pissed because unless LeBron gets hit by a truck or tears something, he is eventually going to shoot right by Kobe?

Serious question. However, I don't expect a serious answer.

Ding ding ding.

Thats what it looks like. Cause some of their reasoning is lame like the whole he needed wade excuse. Acting like Kobe never needed Shaq (or Pau or Bynum or now nash/dwight etc) or how when kobe had a sorry team (smush, kwame.etc) like he was wasnt frustrated and ready to be traded. Only difference is the Laker franchise doesnt have a bunch of idiots running it like Cleveland did and they were able to find help for him. Not Lebrons fault cleveland couldnt get him the right people so he went somewhere were he could just like kobe would have had he not been with that management.

Now if the lakers lose with this cast to Lebron ohh all hell will break lose and the Lebron v Kobe debate gets that much stronger in favor or lebron so i honestly cant wait to wipe the floor with them.

Aust
10-26-2012, 07:43 PM
Dan Gilbert is a fool. He had plenty of chances to upgrade his team when he had LBJ

5ass
10-26-2012, 07:43 PM
not gonna happen, nobody will surpass mj.

Some1 should pass MJ eventually. I think its going to be a big man.

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 07:47 PM
You think fans/basketball historians will forget about it? The NBA, maybe more than any other pro sport besides boxing, is built on great individual performances... replaying them over and over for the next generation to compare and argue (Wilt's 100, Magic playing center, 'Nique vs Bird, The Flu Game, Iverson's 48 in '01 Finals, etc). I think this generation will put LeBron's performance right up there.

I never said they'll forget about it that isn't what I said. I said it will not be remembered for just his amazing performance. At the end of the day he lost and he'll unfairly be remembered for not winning in the Finals.

PraiseJesus
10-26-2012, 07:48 PM
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/10/26/lebron-heat-title-defense.ap/?ls=iref:nbahpts

LeBron James won a championship and nothing changed.
Sure, there were a few events. The obligatory champagne shower at his stall in the Miami Heat locker room. The parade through before an estimated 400,000 fans. A pep rally at his high school. And Tuesday night brings the ultimate capper, the ring-and-banner ceremony just minutes before the start of a new season.
Then it begins again, another year, another quest for a title.
Having one title is not completely satisfying for James, who put the he-can't-win notion to rest when the Heat beat the Oklahoma City Thunder in five games for last season's NBA crown. It was a perfect run for the perennial All-Star: Besides getting engaged and winning his second Olympic gold, James walked away with the NBA's three most coveted trophies: MVP, Finals MVP and the championship.
For an encore, he wants more.
"I want to be the best of all-time," James said in an interview with The Associated Press. "It's that simple."
He expressed similar sentiment last year, and the year before that, and probably all the way back to high school in Akron, Ohio. He always wondered if a championship would change that perspective.
He now has his answer.
"Not really, honestly," James said. "I haven't had much time to really just think about what actually happened. At the end of the day, there's still going to be people that say, well, he's not going to be able to win two. He's not going to be able to do it again."
Time will tell.
At 6-foot-8, 260 pounds and blessed with a speed-and-strength combination - "he's a freak," Detroit coach Lawrence Frank said - James is widely considered the best player in the game today. He has won three MVP awards and some opposing coaches say he might keep winning those until voters get tired of selecting him.
But the best of all time, that title will obviously take some work.
So this summer - partly because of the desire to win another ring, partly because of his incessant need to silence doubters, partly because it's just who he is - James took very little time off. He went straight from the finals to the Olympics, then rested briefly before getting back in the gym. James arrived at camp in essentially the same shape as he ended last season.
"He has great perspective on this game and what it takes to be a champion," Heat coach Erik Spoelstra said. "He's one of the most self-motivated players I've ever been around. But yes, he also needs to be stimulated from time to time. It's a joy for our franchise to have this opportunity to be able to work with him."
Last season was a joy for James as well, and not just because of the title.
After the hating-the-Heat phenomenon that followed his decision to leave Cleveland for Miami in 2010 - and the manner in which he made that decision - James said last season was about getting back to the basics of basketball. He surrounded himself with friends and family whenever he could. He tried to ignore at least some of the round-the-clock coverage of all things LeBron. He was going to be happy again, no matter what.
It worked.
The two knocks about James a year ago were that he couldn't close games, that he couldn't rise to the ultimate moments and that he couldn't win a title. He debunked all of that - the 45-point game in win-or-else Game 6 at Boston in the Eastern Conference finals, the one-legged 3-pointer when he was cramping against Oklahoma City that helped the Heat win Game 4 of the finals, and then, the triple-double in the season's last game.
James went to the bench with 3:01 left in that game, and within moments, started dancing and jumping around, waving his arms and grinning.
Happy, personified.
"The best thing about last year is we got all the way to the mountaintop and then we crossed over," James said. "So now I know what it takes to get there and actually get over the top of that mountain."
James is on the verge of entering even more rarefied NBA air.
He enters the season 47th all-time in scoring, with a chance to move up to around No. 30 if he posts average-for-him numbers over the next 82 games. Among active players, he's ninth in scoring, and each of the eight names above him on that list have completed at least 14 NBA seasons. James has completed nine.
"LeBron takes no days off," Heat forward Udonis Haslem said. "After winning the championship, he goes straight to the Olympics, then comes back and is straight into the season. It'd be easy for him to make excuses and take a practice day off. But not this guy. No days off. He's nonstop, he's motivated and he brings it every day."
With James, as most basketball fans know, scoring is just part of the story.
He's 10th among active players in assists. James enters the season with three more assists than San Antonio's Tony Parker - a point guard who has played 117 more games than James. And James' average combined points, assists and rebounds per game (41.7) is considerably ahead of the No. 2 active player on that list, that being Heat teammate Dwyane Wade (36.4).
"LeBron is very talented on the court and he's probably the best player in the NBA," Heat forward Rashard Lewis said. "But I don't think people know his personable side. He's a great guy, loves his teammates, is very sharing, is always bringing gifts into the locker room for his teammates. He's a funny guy, a class clown, but when he steps on the court he's all about the game."
And he insists nothing has changed in that respect.
The Heat are generally considered favorites to win another title this season, though the external expectation does little to faze James. At this point, he knows championships will define whether it was a good year or not, much as it was for the stars before him like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, some of the few on whom the spotlight has shone brightest.
"The target, that doesn't change for me," James said. "I've had a target, champion or not champion, since probably `05. And now that we've won one, the target, it's no different for me."






MetroMan Will Rise Again

It's articles like this that makes me miss the old days when Newspapers still had power in the media

Very well written and made me like LeBron a TINY bit more. Thats a lot from a Lakers fan

Aust
10-26-2012, 07:48 PM
As long as this league is around, someone will surpass MJ.

All records will eventually be broken. All greatness will eventually be surpassed.

Lakers + Giants
10-26-2012, 07:48 PM
He'll finish top 5 all time ahead of kobe, might even finish top 3.

abe_froman
10-26-2012, 07:51 PM
not gonna happen, nobody will surpass mj.

never say never.the longer the league is around the greater chance that they'll be that someone will surpass him

Aust
10-26-2012, 07:53 PM
As technology improves, athletic careers will last much longer, giving players a better chance at surpassing such greatness

stawka
10-26-2012, 07:55 PM
That's what you want him to say. There's nothing wrong with this.

It's LeBron. If it was Kobe, "OMG he's such a warrior bro" would be engraved in all our heads

Wruff
10-26-2012, 08:02 PM
Lebron "I Want To Be The Best Of All Time"
You'd never have won a title without all that help, Ledouche. You do not make your teammates better. Someone like MJ on the other hand made everyone around him better and didn't need to bail out of town to a city with other superstars in order to finally get over the hump.

Cano4prez
10-26-2012, 08:03 PM
I don't care if he shoots past Kobe(which he will).

The hype is becoming so thick it's starting to take physical form.
The happiest time of the year for me was the last 2 months where I didn't have to hear about Dwight or Lebron 50x a day.

Then don't watch

KnicksorBust
10-26-2012, 08:34 PM
I can't believe I left the thread when people were baiting me. :) Missed out on some fun.

3ballbomber
10-26-2012, 08:37 PM
It's funny how now he has the balls to say such a bald statement. It was just last season he was being ridiculed by Kobe to his face on why he was constantly passing away shots to win the all star game. IT was only 2 seasons ago he showed how much a coward he was passing on shots to try and win in the finals vs the Mavs and his "disappearing" act vs Celtics a season before that. He has alot of catching up to do to even faintly touch the greats let alone be 'The Best'. 1 title in a shortened season just won't cut it.

PraiseJesus
10-26-2012, 08:39 PM
As long as this league is around, someone will surpass MJ.

All records will eventually be broken. All greatness will eventually be surpassed.

Why hasnt anyone gotten close to Kareems scoring record then?

How about Dimaggios Hit streak??

Wilts 100pt game?

Your statement is false

metsbulls1025
10-26-2012, 08:41 PM
A LBJ thread. New season must be right around the corner.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 08:46 PM
are Laker fans pissed because unless LeBron gets hit by a truck or tears something, he is eventually going to shoot right by Kobe?

Serious question. However, I don't expect a serious answer.

I will give you a serious answer from my own, not representing any Laker fan out there.


The answer to your question is no. I would not be pissed if LeBron surpassed Kobe. The current greats learn from the past greats.



Michael learned from both Magic and Larry. Kobe learned from Michael. And believe it or not, LeBron has learned from Kobe.


That 2008 Summer Olympics for LeBron spending time with Kobe was key. It's not a surprise that LeBron arguably became the best player in the league in 2008-2009 (the season following the 08 Olympics in Beijing) and won the first of his back-to-back League MVPs and helped catapult the Cavaliers to the best record in the NBA. LeBron's defense went up to another level that season and even LeBron has admitted that playing in the Olympics in Kobe that yr helped make him into a better all around player, especially on the defensive end. He also so how hard Kobe worked and took the game seriously and to heart.


Kobe helped LeBron that summer, and since then the last 4 yrs, LeBron has just run with it. Kobe has passed that torch to LeBron (and LeBron has taken it from him simultaneously); a little bit of both.


LeBron surpassing Kobe won't be disheartening to me at all. In fact, it would have been disheartening if LeBron never reached or didn't come close to the level that Kobe reached.

ATX
10-26-2012, 08:50 PM
It's funny how now he has the balls to say such a bald statement. It was just last season he was being ridiculed by Kobe to his face on why he was constantly passing away shots to win the all star game. IT was only 2 seasons ago he showed how much a coward he was passing on shots to try and win in the finals vs the Mavs and his "disappearing" act vs Celtics a season before that. He has alot of catching up to do to even faintly touch the greats let alone be 'The Best'. 1 title in a shortened season just won't cut it.

:yawn:

It's the present, we're not living in your past conceptions. He's the best player the league has seen since Jordan...You had your moment when the Mavs beat the HEAT. He got over the hump...and how long did it take Dirk? A shortened season is the weakest argument there is. Moving on.

ATX
10-26-2012, 08:53 PM
Besides your hatred blinds you from being able to discuss anything LBJ related. Continue to ***** and moan, I won't reply. Have fun!

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 08:57 PM
I will give you a serious answer from my own, not representing any Laker fan out there.


The answer to your question is no. I would not be pissed if LeBron surpassed Kobe. The current greats learn from the past greats.



Michael learned from both Magic and Larry. Kobe learned from Michael. And believe it or not, LeBron has learned from Kobe.


That 2008 Summer Olympics for LeBron spending time with Kobe was key. It's not a surprise that LeBron arguably became the best player in the league in 2008-2009 (the season following the 08 Olympics in Beijing) and won the first of his back-to-back League MVPs and helped catapult the Cavaliers to the best record in the NBA. LeBron's defense went up to another level that season and even LeBron has admitted that playing in the Olympics in Kobe that yr helped make him into a better all around player, especially on the defensive end. He also so how hard Kobe worked and took the game seriously and to heart.


Kobe helped LeBron that summer, and since then the last 4 yrs, LeBron has just run with it. Kobe has passed that torch to LeBron (and LeBron has taken it from him simultaneously); a little bit of both.


LeBron surpassing Kobe won't be disheartening to me at all. In fact, it would have been disheartening if LeBron never reached or didn't come close to the level that Kobe reached.

I couldn't agree more. The work ethic, and tireless dedication Kobe has shown to his craft is why his longevity and desire have remained where they are. LeBron admitted to learning a lot from Kobe in the 2008 games.

justinnum1
10-26-2012, 08:59 PM
Wont pass MJ, but will end up #2. And the young people will consider him the best ever in 10 years...

3ballbomber
10-26-2012, 09:07 PM
:yawn:

It's the present, we're not living in your past conceptions. He's the best player the league has seen since Jordan...You had your moment when the Mavs beat the HEAT. He got over the hump...and how long did it take Dirk? A shortened season is the weakest argument there is. Moving on.
they have been saying that for years yet he failed in the playoffs over and over again. & 1 lone title playing in the safe confines next to his friends is suppose to impress the masses? riiight

& Dirk wasn't considered a GOAT so you can leave that argument in the trash.

nyKnicks126
10-26-2012, 09:15 PM
I really want him to be the best player to ever play.. He has a chance to. LeBron = MJ prime...... idk?

Chronz
10-26-2012, 09:18 PM
You'd never have won a title without all that help, Ledouche. You do not make your teammates better. Someone like MJ on the other hand made everyone around him better and didn't need to bail out of town to a city with other superstars in order to finally get over the hump.

The Chicken or the egg?

theheatles
10-26-2012, 09:18 PM
Wont pass MJ, but will end up #2. And the young people will consider him the best ever in 10 years...

It'll be this, which is disheartening

Chronz
10-26-2012, 09:19 PM
LeBron surpassing Kobe won't be disheartening to me at all. In fact, it would have been disheartening if LeBron never reached or didn't come close to the level that Kobe reached.

So your disheartened by Kobes career?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 09:26 PM
So your disheartened by Kobes career?

I'm talking about at the end of their careers. Kobe is top 10 right now. I'm saying it would be disheartening if LeBron at the end of his career doesn't come close to Kobe's rank.

Calm down Jebediah.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 09:29 PM
I'm talking about at the end of their careers. Kobe is top 10 right now. I'm saying it would be disheartening if LeBron at the end of his career doesn't come close to Kobe's rank.

Calm down Jebediah.

Yeah Kobe is top 10 (thats being harsh, hes easily top8) but MJ is #1. Yet you'll be disappointed if Bron ends up outside the top 10 even though hes already easily Top-14..... How does that work?

Sactown
10-26-2012, 09:29 PM
Even if Lebron did pass MJ, People like JB would never admit it haha

lol, please
10-26-2012, 09:30 PM
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/10/26/lebron-heat-title-defense.ap/?ls=iref:nbahpts

LeBron James won a championship and nothing changed.
Sure, there were a few events. The obligatory champagne shower at his stall in the Miami Heat locker room. The parade through before an estimated 400,000 fans. A pep rally at his high school. And Tuesday night brings the ultimate capper, the ring-and-banner ceremony just minutes before the start of a new season.
Then it begins again, another year, another quest for a title.
Having one title is not completely satisfying for James, who put the he-can't-win notion to rest when the Heat beat the Oklahoma City Thunder in five games for last season's NBA crown. It was a perfect run for the perennial All-Star: Besides getting engaged and winning his second Olympic gold, James walked away with the NBA's three most coveted trophies: MVP, Finals MVP and the championship.
For an encore, he wants more.
"I want to be the best of all-time," James said in an interview with The Associated Press. "It's that simple."
He expressed similar sentiment last year, and the year before that, and probably all the way back to high school in Akron, Ohio. He always wondered if a championship would change that perspective.
He now has his answer.
"Not really, honestly," James said. "I haven't had much time to really just think about what actually happened. At the end of the day, there's still going to be people that say, well, he's not going to be able to win two. He's not going to be able to do it again."
Time will tell.
At 6-foot-8, 260 pounds and blessed with a speed-and-strength combination - "he's a freak," Detroit coach Lawrence Frank said - James is widely considered the best player in the game today. He has won three MVP awards and some opposing coaches say he might keep winning those until voters get tired of selecting him.
But the best of all time, that title will obviously take some work.
So this summer - partly because of the desire to win another ring, partly because of his incessant need to silence doubters, partly because it's just who he is - James took very little time off. He went straight from the finals to the Olympics, then rested briefly before getting back in the gym. James arrived at camp in essentially the same shape as he ended last season.
"He has great perspective on this game and what it takes to be a champion," Heat coach Erik Spoelstra said. "He's one of the most self-motivated players I've ever been around. But yes, he also needs to be stimulated from time to time. It's a joy for our franchise to have this opportunity to be able to work with him."
Last season was a joy for James as well, and not just because of the title.
After the hating-the-Heat phenomenon that followed his decision to leave Cleveland for Miami in 2010 - and the manner in which he made that decision - James said last season was about getting back to the basics of basketball. He surrounded himself with friends and family whenever he could. He tried to ignore at least some of the round-the-clock coverage of all things LeBron. He was going to be happy again, no matter what.
It worked.
The two knocks about James a year ago were that he couldn't close games, that he couldn't rise to the ultimate moments and that he couldn't win a title. He debunked all of that - the 45-point game in win-or-else Game 6 at Boston in the Eastern Conference finals, the one-legged 3-pointer when he was cramping against Oklahoma City that helped the Heat win Game 4 of the finals, and then, the triple-double in the season's last game.
James went to the bench with 3:01 left in that game, and within moments, started dancing and jumping around, waving his arms and grinning.
Happy, personified.
"The best thing about last year is we got all the way to the mountaintop and then we crossed over," James said. "So now I know what it takes to get there and actually get over the top of that mountain."
James is on the verge of entering even more rarefied NBA air.
He enters the season 47th all-time in scoring, with a chance to move up to around No. 30 if he posts average-for-him numbers over the next 82 games. Among active players, he's ninth in scoring, and each of the eight names above him on that list have completed at least 14 NBA seasons. James has completed nine.
"LeBron takes no days off," Heat forward Udonis Haslem said. "After winning the championship, he goes straight to the Olympics, then comes back and is straight into the season. It'd be easy for him to make excuses and take a practice day off. But not this guy. No days off. He's nonstop, he's motivated and he brings it every day."
With James, as most basketball fans know, scoring is just part of the story.
He's 10th among active players in assists. James enters the season with three more assists than San Antonio's Tony Parker - a point guard who has played 117 more games than James. And James' average combined points, assists and rebounds per game (41.7) is considerably ahead of the No. 2 active player on that list, that being Heat teammate Dwyane Wade (36.4).
"LeBron is very talented on the court and he's probably the best player in the NBA," Heat forward Rashard Lewis said. "But I don't think people know his personable side. He's a great guy, loves his teammates, is very sharing, is always bringing gifts into the locker room for his teammates. He's a funny guy, a class clown, but when he steps on the court he's all about the game."
And he insists nothing has changed in that respect.
The Heat are generally considered favorites to win another title this season, though the external expectation does little to faze James. At this point, he knows championships will define whether it was a good year or not, much as it was for the stars before him like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, some of the few on whom the spotlight has shone brightest.
"The target, that doesn't change for me," James said. "I've had a target, champion or not champion, since probably `05. And now that we've won one, the target, it's no different for me."






MetroMan Will Rise Again

You and every other NBA player past and present Lebron, cry me a river. :sleep:

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 09:31 PM
Yeah Kobe is top 10 (thats being harsh, hes easily top8) but MJ is #1. Yet you'll be disappointed if Bron ends up in say Top13 range (cuz hes already easily Top 16).... How does that work?

Seriously dude, do you have some mental disease?

Get over yourself. Hawkeye15 knows what I'm talking about. Quit bugging people and stop dissecting everything to the literalist sense.


You're like one of those bums on the streets who takes the literal word of the Bible and anytime you come across someone, you tell them that they're going straight to hell because they don't interpret the Bible to its most literal fashion.


Get over yourself clown!

Bos_Sports4Life
10-26-2012, 09:31 PM
Yeah Kobe is top 10 (thats being harsh, hes easily top8) but MJ is #1. Yet you'll be disappointed if Bron ends up outside the top 10 even though hes already easily Top-14..... How does that work?

Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, MJ, Hakeem, Magic, Bird are all ahead of kobe imo. I don't see hows hes easily above any of these guys?

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 09:37 PM
Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, MJ, Hakeem, Magic, Bird are all ahead of kobe imo. I don't see hows hes easily above any of these guys?

I have Kobe ahead of Duncan and Hakeem but that's my opinion. Kobe is right there with Bird and I think he will surpass by the time he retires.

Weird how you don't mention Oscar Robertson at all?

Greedy22
10-26-2012, 09:45 PM
Wouldn't want to hear any different from a superstar.

Greedy22
10-26-2012, 09:45 PM
I have Kobe ahead of Duncan and Hakeem but that's my opinion. Kobe is right there with Bird and I think he will surpass by the time he retires.

Weird how you don't mention Oscar Robertson at all?

Kobe has already surpassed Bird.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 09:47 PM
Does anybody remember when Rashard McCants was saying the same thing? Haha!:D

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 09:48 PM
Kobe has already surpassed Bird.

I think so too but I didn't want to hurt the Celtic fan's feelings and go off into another player debate lol.

Greedy22
10-26-2012, 09:51 PM
I think so too but I didn't want to hurt the Celtic fan's feelings and go off into another player debate lol.

Haha good call. Both are top 10 so it shouldn't be an issue.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 09:52 PM
Seriously dude, do you have some mental disease?

Get over yourself. Hawkeye15 knows what I'm talking about. Quit bugging people and stop dissecting everything to the literalist sense.


You're like one of those bums on the streets who takes the literal word of the Bible and anytime you come across someone, you tell them that they're going straight to hell because they don't interpret the Bible to its most literal fashion.


Get over yourself clown!
LOL so let me get this straight, you can troll the boards non-stop, start arguments and run but I cant poke fun at your illogical expressions and Im the one who needs to get over himself?

How does that work? Just follow your own advice and dont take everything so seriously.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 09:54 PM
Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, MJ, Hakeem, Magic, Bird are all ahead of kobe imo. I don't see hows hes easily above any of these guys?

Bird can GTFO. You already know my thoughts on Russell. Magic and Dream are guys I constantly ponder about vs Kobe.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 09:57 PM
LOL so let me get this straight, you can troll the boards non-stop, start arguments and run but I cant poke fun at your illogical expressions and Im the one who needs to get over himself?

How does that work? Just follow your own advice and dont take everything so seriously.

That was a legitimate conversation I was having Hawkeye. It's you who has the problem with me. Despite being a "veteran" here on PSD, you're insecure as hell.

And how is what I said an "illogical expression". Again, nobody is really impressed with you being here for so many years.


I've been on these boards for less than a yr, so I'm not going to be one of the best posters here and might troll from time to time. You've been at this thing for yrs. What's your excuse?


Getta that weak sauce **** outta here.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 09:59 PM
^Yes, boo Hawkeye! Can we vote him off the island?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 10:00 PM
^Yes, boo Hawkeye! Can we vote him off the island?

No, it's boo Chronz. We should vote that clown off the damn galaxy.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 10:03 PM
No, it's boo Chronz. We should vote that clown off the damn galaxy.

Haha!

The only mod I really like is SteBO to be honest. SteBO for president!

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 10:05 PM
Haha!

The only mod I really like is SteBO to be honest. SteBO for president!

I'm not sure why Hawkeye15 gets such a bad rap. He's not a Heat apologist and narcissist like that clown Chronz.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 10:10 PM
I'm not sure why Hawkeye15 gets such a bad rap. He's not a Heat apologist and narcissist like that clown Chronz.

Because we once got into a debate. He acted like an actual authority on the game when he's really just a glorified hall monitor. I insulted him. He was cool. I apologized. He then came back and threatened me as if I all of a sudden was scared of him. So, I insulted him again. He then banned me for a month :)

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-26-2012, 10:12 PM
Because we once got into a debate. I insulted him. He was cool. I apologized. He then came back and threatened me as if I all of a sudden scared of him. So, I insulted him again. He then banned me for a month :)

Ouch, sorry to hear that.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 10:14 PM
That was a legitimate conversation I was having Hawkeye.
I know, thats what made it so hilarious to me. So I poked fun at it.



It's you who has the problem with me. Despite being a "veteran" here on PSD, you're insecure as hell.
Why do you keep putting that in quotation marks? When have I ever called myself a PSD Veteran? Ive literally asked you this twice before and you have never explained it to me.


And how is what I said an "illogical expression". Again, nobody is really impressed with you being here for so many years.

Again why do you keep bringing up my time served? You think Im insecure yet your the one who keeps talking about rep, "veteranship" etc... how does that work .... lmfao
And its an illogical expression because its one you cant take at its word, in other words its worse than a cliche, its an illogical expression of your flawed opinion. I totally get what your trying to say, but your analogies and basis for comparisons are hilarious to me. Thats all


I've been on these boards for less than a yr, so I'm not going to be one of the best posters here and might troll from time to time. You've been at this thing for yrs. What's your excuse?
LOL what? Im suppose to change because Ive been here for a long time? Sorry bro but Ive been like this from day 1 of the internets.


Getta that weak sauce **** outta here.
OK?

Chronz
10-26-2012, 10:17 PM
I'm not sure why Hawkeye15 gets such a bad rap. He's not a Heat apologist and narcissist like that clown Chronz.

LOL Why dont you ask Hawkeye if Im a Heat apologist? Oh wait Im not suppose to take you literally or seriously right?

C-Style
10-26-2012, 10:26 PM
Should've thought that out before going ring chasing. I still think he can hit top 3, u gotta be stupid not to think that.

bucketss
10-26-2012, 10:35 PM
I'm not sure why Hawkeye15 gets such a bad rap. He's not a Heat apologist and narcissist like that clown Chronz.

you just hating on chronz because he spits raw facts that people like you can't disprove


#yourwelcome



:cool:

Chronz
10-26-2012, 10:41 PM
thanks nameless stranger, sorry but thats what I call people without sigs or avatars

JC_
10-26-2012, 10:43 PM
Looks like Laker fans are scared.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 10:45 PM
Looks like Laker fans are scared.

About??? :confused:

Raps18-19 Champ
10-26-2012, 10:50 PM
Which athlete doesn't want to be the best at their sport?

Cano4prez
10-26-2012, 10:54 PM
Which athlete doesn't want to be the best at their sport?

Renaldo Balkman

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 11:08 PM
Even if Lebron did pass MJ, People like JB would never admit it haha

If someone was better than MJ I would admit it. But the fact remains hard to be better than MJ when you lose 3 years in a row with HCA and when MJ still has the best most productive numbers all time all while growing up in the toughest decade there was for a conference for a franchise not known for winning and turning them into a dynasty.

amos1er
10-26-2012, 11:19 PM
I would have liked to see him say this seven years ago. But hey, better late than never I suppose.

justinnum1
10-26-2012, 11:23 PM
If someone was better than MJ I would admit it. But the fact remains hard to be better than MJ when you lose 3 years in a row with HCA and when MJ still has the best most productive numbers all time all while growing up in the toughest decade there was for a conference for a franchise not known for winning and turning them into a dynasty.

:cricket::cricket:

Bos_Sports4Life
10-26-2012, 11:28 PM
Bird can GTFO. You already know my thoughts on Russell. Magic and Dream are guys I constantly ponder about vs Kobe.

So Russell is overrated, Now Bird can "GTFO"? Starting to think ur biased against Boston :laugh:

Kobe was upset a few times in the finals


Top 7 seasons WS 48

Bird Kobe
.244 .224
.243 .210
.243 .208
.238 .206
.225 .202
.215 .199
.205 .199
.182 .196


Career wise? Bird still has kobe beat. If you want to eliminate his first 3 yrs and go to each players ages 23-31

Bird- .217
Kobe- .197


Bird also has him beat in the Playoffs


Also, Bird is generally ranked as the greatest ever at his position and would be in most peoples all time starting lineup as he's the greatest SF.

Not only do stats back up bird, The eye test would say bird imo also. Beast Rebounder, One of the best passers of all time for a SF, One of the best scorers and very efficient.

Also the better leader imo. He never made another star leave town..Another big plus for Bird

Chronz
10-26-2012, 11:31 PM
all while growing up in the toughest decade there was for a conference .

What? How so?

Chronz
10-26-2012, 11:43 PM
So Russell is overrated, Now Bird can "GTFO"? Starting to think ur biased against Boston :laugh:

Kobe was upset a few times in the finals


Top 7 seasons WS 48

Bird Kobe
.244 .224
.243 .210
.243 .208
.238 .206
.225 .202
.215 .199
.205 .199
.182 .196


Career wise? Bird still has kobe beat. If you want to eliminate his first 3 yrs and go to each players ages 23-31

Bird- .217
Kobe- .197


Bird also has him beat in the Playoffs
But doing that would ignore one of his greatest playoff runs in 2001, now why would I want to do that? Bias perhaps?



Also, Bird is generally ranked as the greatest ever at his position and would be in most peoples all time starting lineup as he's the greatest SF.
Thats cool, but that could be because he plays a different position. And theres also the question of team building. Some people prefer Bird at SF because he would compliment anyone regardless of his position on the floor. Kobe and MJ wouldn't mesh quite the same way (offensively at least). You can argue thats an intangible aspect Bird has on Kobe offensively but Kobe has some intangible arguments of his own defensively.


Not only do stats back up bird, The eye test would say bird imo also. Beast Rebounder, One of the best passers of all time for a SF, One of the best scorers and very efficient.
I dont see what stats your talking about. The stats also tell us Kobe has kept playing at a high level longer than Bird and that he has played against tougher defenses than Bird.


Also the better leader imo. He never made another star leave town..Another big plus for Bird
PLZ, McHale hated him and would've left in this era. And anytime there is a divorce there are 2 people to blame. Bird is probably the better leader but he didn't perform better in the playoffs and unlike Kobe, he didnt get as many cracks to make up for his post season follies.

Supreme LA
10-26-2012, 11:45 PM
So Russell is overrated, Now Bird can "GTFO"? Starting to think ur biased against Boston :laugh:

Kobe was upset a few times in the finals


Top 7 seasons WS 48

Bird Kobe
.244 .224
.243 .210
.243 .208
.238 .206
.225 .202
.215 .199
.205 .199
.182 .196


Career wise? Bird still has kobe beat. If you want to eliminate his first 3 yrs and go to each players ages 23-31

Bird- .217
Kobe- .197


Bird also has him beat in the Playoffs


Also, Bird is generally ranked as the greatest ever at his position and would be in most peoples all time starting lineup as he's the greatest SF.

Not only do stats back up bird, The eye test would say bird imo also. Beast Rebounder, One of the best passers of all time for a SF, One of the best scorers and very efficient.

Also the better leader imo. He never made another star leave town..Another big plus for Bird

:cricket:

amos1er
10-26-2012, 11:47 PM
So Russell is overrated, Now Bird can "GTFO"? Starting to think ur biased against Boston :laugh:

Kobe was upset a few times in the finals


Top 7 seasons WS 48

Bird Kobe
.244 .224
.243 .210
.243 .208
.238 .206
.225 .202
.215 .199
.205 .199
.182 .196


Career wise? Bird still has kobe beat. If you want to eliminate his first 3 yrs and go to each players ages 23-31

Bird- .217
Kobe- .197


Bird also has him beat in the Playoffs


Also, Bird is generally ranked as the greatest ever at his position and would be in most peoples all time starting lineup as he's the greatest SF.

Not only do stats back up bird, The eye test would say bird imo also. Beast Rebounder, One of the best passers of all time for a SF, One of the best scorers and very efficient.

Also the better leader imo. He never made another star leave town..Another big plus for Bird

Nice, you have managed to prove without a doubt that Bird was better than Kobe in terms of ws/48. :clap:

Still waiting for the part where you attempt to prove that Bird was the better player though.

Quinnsanity
10-26-2012, 11:51 PM
Doesn't every player want this?

Bos_Sports4Life
10-26-2012, 11:52 PM
But doing that would ignore one of his greatest playoff runs in 2001, now why would I want to do that? Bias perhaps?



Thats cool, but that could be because he plays a different position. And theres also the question of team building. Some people prefer Bird at SF because he would compliment anyone regardless of his position on the floor. Kobe and MJ wouldn't mesh quite the same way (offensively at least). You can argue thats an intangible aspect Bird has on Kobe offensively but Kobe has some intangible arguments of his own defensively.


I dont see what stats your talking about. The stats also tell us Kobe has kept playing at a high level longer than Bird and that he has played against tougher defenses than Bird.


PLZ, McHale hated him and would've left in this era. And anytime there is a divorce there are 2 people to blame. Bird is probably the better leader but he didn't perform better in the playoffs and unlike Kobe, he didnt get as many cracks to make up for his post season follies.

I just don't see how you think it's not close..

Bird is the better leader, easier to build around ect..along with the better 7 yr peak.

Personally speaking, if I was building an all time team that would win in this era I'm taking magic, mj, Bird, Duncan, and Hakeem.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-26-2012, 11:54 PM
Nice, you have managed to prove without a doubt that Bird was better than Kobe in terms of ws/48. :clap:

Still waiting for the part where you attempt to prove that Bird was the better player though.

More evidence than u have brought, that's for sure..

If he played a shaq...he wouldn't have lost to det imo

Swashcuff
10-26-2012, 11:58 PM
Aside form his obvious bias Bos Sports has made a quality post in favour of Bird and no one has really done or said anything to challenge the facts that he stated.

Chronz aren't you one who value peak over longevity? How is Kobe better than Bird in your opinion then when his peak doesn't match up? You're saying that you don't see what stats he's talking about? Well sir I think you need to get your glasses checked. By the reasoning that you used in favour of Kobe (high level of play against superior D) then you should also have the likes of Dirk and Nash ahead of Bird as well.

TheNumber37
10-26-2012, 11:59 PM
Too bad.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-27-2012, 12:07 AM
Aside form his obvious bias Bos Sports has made a quality post in favour of Bird and no one has really done or said anything to challenge the facts that he stated.

Chronz aren't you one who value peak over longevity? How is Kobe better than Bird in your opinion then when his peak doesn't match up? You're saying that you don't see what stats he's talking about? Well sir I think you need to get your glasses checked. By the reasoning that you used in favour of Kobe (high level of play against superior D) then you should also have the likes of Dirk and Nash ahead of Bird as well.

How am I even being biased.. I never even claimed bird was clearly better..I was just arguing Kobe isnt clearly better than larry

NBAfan4life
10-27-2012, 12:08 AM
are Laker fans pissed because unless LeBron gets hit by a truck or tears something, he is eventually going to shoot right by Kobe?

Serious question. However, I don't expect a serious answer.

No Kobe is my all time favorite. Honestly as hard as it is for me to admit another MVP and championship the argument is there. Things can change, but the way things are going the argument is already being made.

Kobe most likely doesn't have a MVP season in him. If I were to bet real money it would be on Lebron or Durant. Kobe could continue to prove us wrong but he needs to change his game to enhance his legacy. His alpha or nothing mentality needs a slight shift. I really hope Nash rubs off on Kobe. I want to see Kobe's points to go down and assists and FG% go up.

amos1er
10-27-2012, 12:10 AM
More evidence than u have brought, that's for sure..

If he played a shaq...he wouldn't have lost to det imo

If you want to go by ws/48, than Bird would be the 19th best player of all time career wise. If you want to go by peak, than he wouldn't even crack the top 30 and would be under guys like Robinson, Dirk, CP3, Barkley, Malone, Lebron, Garnet, Duncan, Hakeem...etc. If you wan't to use it to compare against Kobe, than logically you have to use it to compare against everyone else as well.

As far as your little Detroit comparison. Purely subjective opinion argument. Impossible to prove.

amos1er
10-27-2012, 12:12 AM
How am I even being biased.. I never even claimed bird was clearly better..I was just arguing Kobe isnt clearly better than larry

The fact that your user name is Bos_Sports4Life should answer this question. :rolleyes:

Swashcuff
10-27-2012, 12:13 AM
How am I even being biased.. I never even claimed bird was clearly better..I was just arguing Kobe isnt clearly better than larry

I've seen/read enough of your posts to know. You're no where as bad as 69Centers but I think you and I both know where your bias lies.

Swashcuff
10-27-2012, 12:16 AM
If you want to go by ws/48, than Bird would be the 19th best player of all time career wise. If you want to go by peak, than he wouldn't even crack the top 30 and would be under guys like Robinson, Dirk, CP3, Barkley, Malone, Lebron, Garnet, Duncan, Hakeem...etc. If you wan't to use it to compare against Kobe, than logically you have to use it to compare against everyone else as well.

As far as your little Detroit comparison. Purely subjective opinion argument. Impossible to prove.

That's the only part of the post you paid attention to though. He also pointed out the fact that Bird was a better passer, rebounder a more efficient scorer and in his opinion (as well as most) a better leader. I'm not a fan of using a singular stat in any argument for any player since they all have their shortcomings but lets not act like he didn't provide anything else to go along with his argument.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-27-2012, 12:21 AM
If you want to go by ws/48, than Bird would be the 19th best player of all time career wise. If you want to go by peak, than he wouldn't even crack the top 30 and would be under guys like Robinson, Dirk, CP3, Barkley, Malone, Lebron, Garnet, Duncan, Hakeem...etc. If you wan't to use it to compare against Kobe, than logically you have to use it to compare against everyone else as well.

As far as your little Detroit comparison. Purely subjective opinion argument. Impossible to prove.

Peak is a subjective length..I did say 8 yr peak to clarify however. So use ws48 while using only players who had around the same mpg.

So find 30 players who had better 10 yr peaks..

For the record I have 0 problem with someone having duncan and hakeem over bird.

amos1er
10-27-2012, 12:26 AM
That's the only part of the post you paid attention to though. He also pointed out the fact that Bird was a better passer, rebounder a more efficient scorer and in his opinion (as well as most) a better leader. I'm not a fan of using a singular stat in any argument for any player since they all have their shortcomings but lets not act like he didn't provide anything else to go along with his argument.

True, but all he did was just gave a bunch of categories he felt Bird was better in without any sort of proof or comparison to anything that Kobe was better in. At least in his ws/48 analysis (which made up 90% of his post BTW), he provided figures for both Kobe and Bird to prove his argument.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-27-2012, 12:26 AM
I've seen/read enough of your posts to know. You're no where as bad as 69Centers but I think you and I both know where your bias lies.

The only time ppl think I'm bias is when talking about Russ/auerbach.

Other than that, idk the last time I was told I was biased.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-27-2012, 12:30 AM
True, but all he did was just gave a bunch of categories he felt Bird was better in without any sort of proof or comparison to anything that Kobe was better in. At least in his ws/48 analysis (which made up 90% of his post BTW), he provided figures for both Kobe and Bird to prove his argument.

Bird historically speaking is one of the best ever in a few diff aspects. Shooting, rebounding AND passing are all some of the best in the history..

He was also clutch as heck late, extremely efficient.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-27-2012, 12:30 AM
you just hating on chronz because he spits raw facts that people like you can't disprove


#yourwelcome



:cool:

Raw facts on what? He was mocking my post to Hawkeye. He didn't even bring up any new info.

Know what's going on in a thread before you look foolish with such false allegations.

IndyRealist
10-27-2012, 12:31 AM
So...he's wants to be the B.O.A.T.?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-27-2012, 12:35 AM
I know, thats what made it so hilarious to me. So I poked fun at it.


Why do you keep putting that in quotation marks? When have I ever called myself a PSD Veteran? Ive literally asked you this twice before and you have never explained it to me.


Again why do you keep bringing up my time served? You think Im insecure yet your the one who keeps talking about rep, "veteranship" etc... how does that work .... lmfao
And its an illogical expression because its one you cant take at its word, in other words its worse than a cliche, its an illogical expression of your flawed opinion. I totally get what your trying to say, but your analogies and basis for comparisons are hilarious to me. Thats all


LOL what? Im suppose to change because Ive been here for a long time? Sorry bro but Ive been like this from day 1 of the internets.


OK?


What the hell does that even mean. You are so verbose in your explanations that sometimes you lose sense of what the hell you were talking about in the first place.

The PSD veteran label comes from the fact that your tone and responses to everything seems like you just feel entitled since you've been here since 2007. You want people to be ball-licking you as you throw out stats etc. and try to play devil's advocate on basically everything.

If 90% of PSD is agreeing on one thing, and I happen to be a part of that 90%, then you'll come out (and most of the time only reply to my posts) and spew out some garbage from basketball reference.com and mydaddychronzstats.com


You think you're knowledgeable, but you don't impress me one bit.

JNoel
10-27-2012, 12:38 AM
So...he's wants to be the B.O.A.T.?

Boats float on water, there is a major discrepancy between a G.O.A.T which in basketball is the Greatest of all time, a goat which is an animal that produces milk, and a moat which a boat can float on but not entirely.

amos1er
10-27-2012, 12:47 AM
Peak is a subjective length..I did say 8 yr peak to clarify however. So use ws48 while using only players who had around the same mpg.

So find 30 players who had better 10 yr peaks..

For the record I have 0 problem with someone having duncan and hakeem over bird.

8 years is hardly a peak. :rolleyes: It's more like the bulk of a career. Do you really expect me to take the time to provide an 8 year peak for 30 players and post it? I don't really have the time bro. lol Obviously I was just guesstimating when I said that. But you should know that Bird was not even in the top 100 when it came to top regular season ws/48.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

Just for ***** and giggles...

Dirk and Birds 8 year peak for ws/48

Dirk Bird
.275 .244
.278 .243
.249 .243
.248 .238
.224 .225
.222 .215
.223 .205
.213 .182

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-27-2012, 12:49 AM
Funny how Kobe, Bird and Michael have been talked about more than the guy who the thread was initially made for (LeBron).


Just shows that LBJ has way more to do before he even sniffs the company of those guys.

Chronz
10-27-2012, 12:50 AM
I just don't see how you think it's not close..

Bird is the better leader, easier to build around ect..along with the better 7 yr peak.



Im sorry but just because I think its a lopsided debate doesnt mean I dont think its close. I know that sounds like an oxymoron but Im trying to say I wouldn't blame someone for choosing Bird, he definitely has a case. But Im giving you my opinion and unlike a comparison between Kobe and Magic, I have very little trouble going against Bird. I just feel its an easy distinction between the 2 even admitting they are close.

I dont buy that Bird had the better 7 year peak.


Personally speaking, if I was building an all time team that would win in this era I'm taking magic, mj, Bird, Duncan, and Hakeem.
You know I think I would too, but that doesn't mean Im taking Hakeem or Duncan before Shaq/KAJ if Im starting a team or choosing the better NBA career. But I admit thats a pretty good quality to have.

Chronz
10-27-2012, 01:04 AM
Chronz aren't you one who value peak over longevity?
Yes very much so.


How is Kobe better than Bird in your opinion then when his peak doesn't match up?
I feel it does. Bird was maybe better at his very best (its a compelling argument) but I like Kobes combo of Prime/Peak run better thats all.


You're saying that you don't see what stats he's talking about? Well sir I think you need to get your glasses checked.
How so? He was asking me to ignore one of Kobe best runs, if those are the kind of numbers he wants me to look at then no thanks.



By the reasoning that you used in favour of Kobe (high level of play against superior D) then you should also have the likes of Dirk and Nash ahead of Bird as well.
But they dont have the overall case that Kobe does.

JNoel
10-27-2012, 01:09 AM
Lebron is the best, no dobt, Bird, Russell, and Wilt played in such weak leagues at the time

Chronz
10-27-2012, 01:14 AM
What the hell does that even mean. You are so verbose in your explanations that sometimes you lose sense of what the hell you were talking about in the first place.
You want me to explain the explanation I gave you? Jesus how deep does this rabbit hole go? I havent lost sense of anything, I was making a joke about something you said that I found illogical. I know you were being serious and I know you dont want me to take you literally, I get that, its weird but I get you.



The PSD veteran label comes from the fact that your tone and responses to everything seems like you just feel entitled since you've been here since 2007. You want people to be ball-licking you as you throw out stats etc. and try to play devil's advocate on basically everything.
Thats exactly why you need to stop using quotations. I never stood by that opinion so it makes no sense to try and use quotes here. Its all in your head bro.


If 90% of PSD is agreeing on one thing, and I happen to be a part of that 90%, then you'll come out (and most of the time only reply to my posts) and spew out some garbage from basketball reference.com and mydaddychronzstats.com
Dont buy it. You had no problem backing me when I happened to bombard an anti-laker post with knowledge. In fact your words (before you edited your post) was Chronz is giving it to him without the lube or some **** like that. I didnt respond to it because I know how flimsy people like you are. You've proven that here by attempting to label me a Heat apologist, and a Bron homer in the past.



You think you're knowledgeable, but you don't impress me one bit.
Am I suppose to care? Ive had my fill of haters and friends, Im here to debate with all who wish to participate. Dont like it? Tough beans.

Chronz
10-27-2012, 01:15 AM
Raw facts on what? He was mocking my post to Hawkeye. He didn't even bring up any new info.

Know what's going on in a thread before you look foolish with such false allegations.
LOL oh the irony

b@llhog24
10-27-2012, 01:15 AM
8 years is hardly a peak. :rolleyes: It's more like the bulk of a career. Do you really expect me to take the time to provide an 8 year peak for 30 players and post it?

You ask people to do frivolous exercises all the time though.


I don't really have the time bro. lol Obviously I was just guesstimating when I said that. But you should know that Bird was not even in the top 100 when it came to top regular season ws/48.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

Some players have great peaks but don't have enough accolades, longevity, or intangibles to even speak to Birds. Also if you take out the recurring seasons or even adjust them to include USG then the list dramatically changes.


Just for ***** and giggles...

Dirk and Birds 8 year peak for ws/48

Dirk Bird
.275 .244
.278 .243
.249 .243
.248 .238
.224 .225
.222 .215
.223 .205
.213 .182

Just more proof why Dirk is one of the most underrated superstars of the 2K era.

Chronz
10-27-2012, 01:29 AM
Yea Dirk is pretty ****ing underrated

amos1er
10-27-2012, 01:32 AM
You ask people to do frivolous exercises all the time though.

Examples please. :p

But seriously, it would have taken me days to do what he was asking. The link and Dirk comparison I provided were more than enough to suffice.



Some players have great peaks but don't have enough accolades, longevity, or intangibles to even speak to Birds. Also if you take out the recurring seasons or even adjust them to include USG then the list dramatically changes.

Yes, but the bulk of his argument was based of ws/48. I was just pointing out to him why you can't base the bulk of an argument on a single stat.


Just more proof why Dirk is one of the most underrated superstars of the 2K era.

Dirk deserves his props for sure, but by no means should he be considered in the top ten of all time. I was just showing that poster that it isn't all about ws/48. Dirk is great and all, but by no means should he be compared to Bird even if his ws/48 is better. There are many other factors to be taken into account.

DreamShaker
10-27-2012, 01:45 AM
As he should. Athletes and humans in general should never run out of goals and ambitions. Lebron can still get better, and if he focuses on getting better, he will climb up yhe ranks. There is no telling where he falls, but I for one enjoy the ride of watching greatness unfold.

Bruno
10-27-2012, 01:55 AM
As he should. Athletes and humans in general should never run out of goals and ambitions. Lebron can still get better, and if he focuses on getting better, he will climb up yhe ranks. There is no telling where he falls, but I for one enjoy the ride of watching greatness unfold.

x2.

i dont think people realize how big of an accomplishment it is to be consensus top ten in a league that has been around for well over half a century. it'd be nice if our contemporaries didn't have to constantly compete with ghosts. all LBJ should be concerned with is preventing los angeles from winning a title, and not allowing kevin durant to out-do him in the finals, or ever surpass him in title count. the rest of this bs will take care of itself.

NBA-GMaster
10-27-2012, 02:51 AM
Move to Charlotte Bobcats, Score a 40 ppg,win the season's MVP, win the finals' MVP and Win a championship with their curent roster.. If he can do that, he's the greatest of all time..

Bos_Sports4Life
10-27-2012, 05:17 AM
8 years is hardly a peak. :rolleyes: It's more like the bulk of a career. Do you really expect me to take the time to provide an 8 year peak for 30 players and post it? I don't really have the time bro. lol Obviously I was just guesstimating when I said that. But you should know that Bird was not even in the top 100 when it came to top regular season ws/48.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

Just for ***** and giggles...

Dirk and Birds 8 year peak for ws/48

Dirk Bird
.275 .244
.278 .243
.249 .243
.248 .238
.224 .225
.222 .215
.223 .205
.213 .182

Top reasons I have Bird over Kobe

* Always having to be the man

EX 1: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Now, I don't find this to be as key as some as this only talks about the final 24 seconds. But it does represent what Kobe is all about which is having to be the man/hero, His biggest flaw at times.



EX 2: Ran the most dominant player in the NBA out of town so he could be the alpha/Get more of the credit.

Now, some people deny this but it's pretty clear as day.

Too His credit he's won 2 titles with Gasol, But How many more could have have won with Shaq? Easily a few more.




* Better Prime (I'll support this with #'s). I'll compare the better 9 Yr Run.


Bird '79-80 to '87-88 vs. Kobes '99-2000 to '07-08


Bird

PPG- 25.0
APG- 6.1
RPG- 10.2
TS %: .570
WS: 123.7
WS48: .217


Kobe

PPG: 28.3
APG: 5.3
RPG: 5.9
TS %: .559
WS: 110.6
WS48: .200


Bird has the Advantage in all of those numbers besides PPG. Heck, He has a higher TS% Despite the defense being allowed to do more in his day compared to Kobe's day

* Hand checking went away in '94 (Before Kobe's time)

* Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997 (Before Kobe's time)

* In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.


Heck, lets look at the type of impact a rookie Bird had on the celtics..

'79 Celtics;

* 29-53 Record

* top 5 in min played (Maxwell, Ford, Cowens, Archibald, Judkins)

'80 Celtics (Birds Rookie Season)

* 61-21

* Top 5 in min played other than Bird(Maxwell,Archibald, Ford, Robey,Cowens)

Basically the same team, However they saw a 32 game diff.


Now, that can't be driectly compared to anything kobe did, but I decided to just throw that out there.



Overall I'd take Bird. Factor in personality/Play style? It becomes a no brainer to me. He's easier to build around and flat out has less flaws personality wise.

Kobe still had a great will to win/Great work ethic and has won despite those flaws, But imo that doesn't 100% disscount those flaws listed.

I think if you gave Bird a guy like Shaq those 2 would have made things work and would have dominated longer. I don't have any proof those are just my opinion.

beliges
10-27-2012, 12:36 PM
8 years is hardly a peak. :rolleyes: It's more like the bulk of a career. Do you really expect me to take the time to provide an 8 year peak for 30 players and post it? I don't really have the time bro. lol Obviously I was just guesstimating when I said that. But you should know that Bird was not even in the top 100 when it came to top regular season ws/48.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

Just for ***** and giggles...

Dirk and Birds 8 year peak for ws/48

Dirk Bird
.275 .244
.278 .243
.249 .243
.248 .238
.224 .225
.222 .215
.223 .205
.213 .182

Top reasons I have Bird over Kobe

* Always having to be the man

EX 1: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Now, I don't find this to be as key as some as this only talks about the final 24 seconds. But it does represent what Kobe is all about which is having to be the man/hero, His biggest flaw at times.



EX 2: Ran the most dominant player in the NBA out of town so he could be the alpha/Get more of the credit.

Now, some people deny this but it's pretty clear as day.

Too His credit he's won 2 titles with Gasol, But How many more could have have won with Shaq? Easily a few more.




* Better Prime (I'll support this with #'s). I'll compare the better 9 Yr Run.


Bird '79-80 to '87-88 vs. Kobes '99-2000 to '07-08


Bird

PPG- 25.0
APG- 6.1
RPG- 10.2
TS %: .570
WS: 123.7
WS48: .217


Kobe

PPG: 28.3
APG: 5.3
RPG: 5.9
TS %: .559
WS: 110.6
WS48: .200


Bird has the Advantage in all of those numbers besides PPG. Heck, He has a higher TS% Despite the defense being allowed to do more in his day compared to Kobe's day

* Hand checking went away in '94 (Before Kobe's time)

* Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997 (Before Kobe's time)

* In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.


Heck, lets look at the type of impact a rookie Bird had on the celtics..

'79 Celtics;

* 29-53 Record

* top 5 in min played (Maxwell, Ford, Cowens, Archibald, Judkins)

'80 Celtics (Birds Rookie Season)

* 61-21

* Top 5 in min played other than Bird(Maxwell,Archibald, Ford, Robey,Cowens)

Basically the same team, However they saw a 32 game diff.


Now, that can't be driectly compared to anything kobe did, but I decided to just throw that out there.



Overall I'd take Bird. Factor in personality/Play style? It becomes a no brainer to me. He's easier to build around and flat out has less flaws personality wise.

Kobe still had a great will to win/Great work ethic and has won despite those flaws, But imo that doesn't 100% disscount those flaws listed.

I think if you gave Bird a guy like Shaq those 2 would have made things work and would have dominated longer. I don't have any proof those are just my opinion.

You wont find too many people disagreeing on the fact that Kobe has surpassed bird at this point. Bird had teams.just as talented as any of kobes and yet he couldn't win.nearly as much.

Now surely I give bird the edge over lebron at this point. If LBJ can win another two titles here he'll be right there with Bird. Its difficult to.argue otherwise but with that said. Its extremely difficult to be able.to win title after title. Lebrons got.his work cut out. He will need two more titles to surpass hakeem and.get into that 10 spot.

mightybosstone
10-27-2012, 12:40 PM
You wont find too many people disagreeing on the fact that Kobe has surpassed bird at this point. Bird had teams.just as talented as any of kobes and yet he couldn't win.nearly as much.
Awful grammar aside, this argument is just awful. Bird had amazing teams, but he also played in the same era as the Showtime Lakers, which featured two of the five greatest players in NBA history. Kobe's NEVER had to play against a team that talented.


Now surely I give bird the edge over lebron at this point. If LBJ can win another two titles here he'll be right there with Bird. Its difficult to.argue otherwise but with that said. Its extremely difficult to be able.to win title after title. Lebrons got.his work cut out. He will need two more titles to surpass hakeem and.get into that 10 spot.
Seriously, you need to learn how to use punctuation. This is pitiful. Also, Hakeem's spot in the top 10 is fine, IMO. It's Kobe who will get passed up on the top 10 list by Lebron. Here's my personal list.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses

I Rock Shaqs
10-27-2012, 01:11 PM
The best player in basketball wants to be the best player ever?!?!? How dare he?!?!?

beliges
10-27-2012, 01:23 PM
You wont find too many people disagreeing on the fact that Kobe has surpassed bird at this point. Bird had teams.just as talented as any of kobes and yet he couldn't win.nearly as much.
Awful grammar aside, this argument is just awful. Bird had amazing teams, but he also played in the same era as the Showtime Lakers, which featured two of the five greatest players in NBA history. Kobe's NEVER had to play against a team that talented.


Now surely I give bird the edge over lebron at this point. If LBJ can win another two titles here he'll be right there with Bird. Its difficult to.argue otherwise but with that said. Its extremely difficult to be able.to win title after title. Lebrons got.his work cut out. He will need two more titles to surpass hakeem and.get into that 10 spot.
Seriously, you need to learn how to use punctuation. This is pitiful. Also, Hakeem's spot in the top 10 is fine, IMO. It's Kobe who will get passed up on the top 10 list by Lebron. Here's my personal list.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses

The spurs, kings, 00 blazers and Celtics were just as talented and great as any of the teams bird had to face. Sorry but career achievements are not too close and the debate is not in favor of Bird. Sorry dude Kobe has won more than anyone on that top 10 list outside of magic, mj and Russell. Lebron had quite a few people to pass on the top 10 before he gets to Kobe.

Your list is your opinion. Buy history, dominance, success and career achievements say your list is incorrect. If lebron can win a title every other year like Kobe did for a 10 yr period, then we can have a valid discussion, but until then you're arguing potential vs actual.

mightybosstone
10-27-2012, 01:55 PM
The spurs, kings, 00 blazers and Celtics were just as talented and great as any of the teams bird had to face.
Holy ****.... This is so stupid, I'm considering it for a sig quote. You HONESTLY think the 2000s Kings and Blazers were as good as the Showtime Lakers with Magic, Kareem and Worthy? Are you really that ignorant that you honestly believe this ridiculous statement?


Sorry but career achievements are not too close and the debate is not in favor of Bird. Sorry dude Kobe has won more than anyone on that top 10 list outside of magic, mj and Russell.
I'm really sick of making the same argument, but anyone who is competent enough to read and understand advanced statistics can easily see that Bird was the better basketball player. Period. You don't have to agree with me. If you prefer to be wrong, that's your own prerogative.


Your list is your opinion. Buy history, dominance, success and career achievements say your list is incorrect. If lebron can win a title every other year like Kobe did for a 10 yr period, then we can have a valid discussion, but until then you're arguing potential vs actual.
You clearly don't understand context and are blinded are career achievements and titles. Kobe was never the best player in the league at any given time. Kobe was the No. 2 player on a team anchored by Shaq that won three of his five titles, and if not for his massive ego, probably would have won a lot more. And Kobe has been just an average scorer when it comes to efficiency over the course of his career.

If you do refuse to accept these facts, that's your choice. But it certainly doesn't make you right.

rickshaw
10-27-2012, 02:23 PM
Can anyone explain the logic behind losing in the finals as a negative? Lebron and Kobe losing in the finals is worse than the years Jordan lost in the ECF or semis? Their legacy's would be better if they would have lost in those years conference finals instead of the finals? Dumbest argument around.

rickshaw
10-27-2012, 02:34 PM
You wont find too many people disagreeing on the fact that Kobe has surpassed bird at this point. Bird had teams.just as talented as any of kobes and yet he couldn't win.nearly as much.
.

Turrible argument.

Bird won 3 titles in 12 seasons (not counting 88-89) (1 out of every four)
Kobes won 5 in 16 seasons (1 in every 3.2)

Bird has to play against the Showtime Lakers and the Moses Malone/Dr. J Sixers, and never had someone as dominant as Shaq.

JordansBulls
10-27-2012, 02:38 PM
Can anyone explain the logic behind losing in the finals as a negative? Lebron and Kobe losing in the finals is worse than the years Jordan lost in the ECF or semis? Their legacy's would be better if they would have lost in those years conference finals instead of the finals? Dumbest argument around.

It matters only when you lose as the favorite in any series.

Lebron losing in 2007 in the finals doesn't mean much to me, losing in 2011 does. As does losing in 2009 and 2010 with HCA.

Supreme LA
10-27-2012, 02:47 PM
So many arguments for Bird and yet Kobe is still better than Bird :p

Seriously though, is it really necessary to debate top ten all the time? Everybody's opinion varies and there is no definite answer for the order aside from MJ being at #1 by a vast majority. Since the list will continue to change throughout history how about we all just move on and spend our lives doing something worth while for ourselves and our friends/family.

I say this because there is a lot of you who I believe spend too much time at your CPU's debating with people that you will never convince to side with you or your views. Let's all get a life, enjoy the players in the present while appreciating the legends of the past, and get some sun once in a while :)

For some, you can turn you attention to you wives/girlfriends. For others, you need to get a girlfriend/boyfriend (whatever you're into). For all of us, lets actually go out and play the game instead of talking about everyday of our lives 24 hrs a day. Exercise is good!

It's nice to hear your guys' thoughts now and then but I mainly come here to stay up to date on basketball news.

Bravo95
10-27-2012, 02:47 PM
Bryant passed Bird for me. Both had great teammates and faced tough competition (Spurs and Celtics are two of the toughest teams ever assembled IMO, and the Suns and Kings weren't pushovers). Longevity/durability is a big deal also.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-27-2012, 02:53 PM
Turrible argument.

Bird won 3 titles in 12 seasons (not counting 88-89) (1 out of every four)
Kobes won 5 in 16 seasons (1 in every 3.2)

Bird has to play against the Showtime Lakers and the Moses Malone/Dr. J Sixers, and never had someone as dominant as Shaq.

Not only that, the 80's also included the isiah/Dumars/Rodman/Laimbeer Piston teams.

That team once swept both..the Lakers/Celtics in the playoffs. Any other decade that team wins 3+ titles imo.

benzni
10-27-2012, 03:11 PM
So does everyone else...

TyrionLannister
10-27-2012, 03:34 PM
It would take a lot, but we'll see how it plays out.

If he wins, say, 5 titles with 6 MVPs, and finishes with over 35000 career points and 10000 career assists and rebounds each, I think he'll have a case.

tapajafri
10-27-2012, 03:42 PM
Lebron is certainly on his way to being the best of all time.


Honestly, skill-wise, he probably already is the most talent, skilled, physically-gifted basketball player in history.

Ebbs
10-27-2012, 03:44 PM
Good I'm glad he does. I don't care if he gets to that point. I do however want there to be a legitimate argument for him.

naps
10-27-2012, 04:19 PM
I personally don't think anyone will ever be better than Jordan but LeBron is on the right path to possibly be the strongest GOAT candidate not named Jordan that is the #2 spot.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-27-2012, 04:55 PM
I personally don't think anyone will ever be better than Jordan but LeBron is on the right path to possibly be the strongest GOAT candidate not named Jordan that is the #2 spot.

He has a loooooong ways to go.

mngopher35
10-27-2012, 05:47 PM
Good for Lebron, he should want to be the GOAT. There is a very small chance it happens imo but it is definitely possible if Lebron continues to develop his game and can play at a high level into his mid 30's.

Kobe vs. Bird is a really close one for me. I tend to care more about peak than longevity and I think Bird had the better peak/prime, and thats why its close for me. Kobe however wasnt far off at all and his longevity makes up for the slightly lower prime in this case. I have kobe just above bird on the all time rank.

JasonJohnHorn
10-27-2012, 06:05 PM
I appreciate that he sets goals like this, but at the same time it spoils the magic of his accomplishments already. I remember watching Jordan hoist up his first trophy. I HATED the Bulls... but here's this guy just bawling his eyes out, crying because he's so happy, and you know what, I was actually happy for him. I could see how much it meant to him. But what James is chasing is something he'll never have. There is no way to quantify who the greatest is. I saw James with the championship this year, and it just wasn't magical. It was like one step on this path he's on. He's set the bar so high for himself that winning a championship isn't enough. It dilutes what he does, because even after he wins MVP, and a ring and a finals MVP, and makes the All-Star team and the All-NBA first team, and wins a gold medal... it still isn't enough.

He needs to take things one step at a time and enjoy the moment. You can't compare yourself to others. All you can do is be the best you that you can be. Even if James retires with 7 or 8 rings, there will always be Bill Russell with 11. Even if he leads the league in triple-doubles, there will always be The Big O who averages a triple-double. Even if he leads the league in scoring, there will always be Wilt's 50 points per game and 100 point game performance. And then there's Jordan. And Magic. And Bird. And Dr. J. And when LBJ retires, there will be nothing he can do about the younger generation that follows him.

He's got to stop putting himself next to other players from other generations and just be the best he can be. Otherwise he'll never be happy.

Jarvo
10-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Ehh Kobe isn't Top 5 & Lebron will pass him even with less Titles, But when it's all said and done LBJ will win 4-5 titles and another MVP I believe

Jarvo
10-27-2012, 06:12 PM
I appreciate that he sets goals like this, but at the same time it spoils the magic of his accomplishments already. I remember watching Jordan hoist up his first trophy. I HATED the Bulls... but here's this guy just bawling his eyes out, crying because he's so happy, and you know what, I was actually happy for him. I could see how much it meant to him. But what James is chasing is something he'll never have. There is no way to quantify who the greatest is. I saw James with the championship this year, and it just wasn't magical. It was like one step on this path he's on. He's set the bar so high for himself that winning a championship isn't enough. It dilutes what he does, because even after he wins MVP, and a ring and a finals MVP, and makes the All-Star team and the All-NBA first team, and wins a gold medal... it still isn't enough.

He needs to take things one step at a time and enjoy the moment. You can't compare yourself to others. All you can do is be the best you that you can be. Even if James retires with 7 or 8 rings, there will always be Bill Russell with 11. Even if he leads the league in triple-doubles, there will always be The Big O who averages a triple-double. Even if he leads the league in scoring, there will always be Wilt's 50 points per game and 100 point game performance. And then there's Jordan. And Magic. And Bird. And Dr. J. And when LBJ retires, there will be nothing he can do about the younger generation that follows him.

He's got to stop putting himself next to other players from other generations and just be the best he can be. Otherwise he'll never be happy.


With that much hype and this much hate on him why would you be happy with just one ring? MJ sure as hell wouldn't be.

beliges
10-27-2012, 08:50 PM
Turrible argument.

Bird won 3 titles in 12 seasons (not counting 88-89) (1 out of every four)
Kobes won 5 in 16 seasons (1 in every 3.2)

Bird has to play against the Showtime Lakers and the Moses Malone/Dr. J Sixers, and never had someone as dominant as Shaq.

LOL. Kobe's prime lasted as long as Bird's entire career. Not to mention Bird played alongside two top 50 of all time players in their prime. Furthermore, he got outplayed by Magic during his era. Nobody outplayed Kobe during their era in terms of sheer domination. Like I said, you wont find too many people outside of Celtics fans that would disagree with the fact that Kobe has already surpassed Bird.

Now a more interesting debate would be Lebron v. Bird as this is still a legitimate debate. Lebron was able to finally get that elusive ring. One thing I can say for sure is that Lebron has no shot at becoming the greatest ever. Not only because of the Miamia jump ship incident but the fact that he disappeared from big moments in the playoffs too many times and that horrendous Finals performance against Dallas. However, the man is well on his way to becoming one of the greatests to ever play the game. If he continues at this level for the next 4-5 years and wins another 2-3 titles, id say he would clearly be ahead of Hakeem and Bird at that point to edge in the top 10. But a lot of things have to go his way. With the Lakers re-tooling and Durant coming after that title, its not going to get easier for Lebron to keep winning, especially since Wade is clearly on the decline at this point.

amos1er
10-27-2012, 08:57 PM
LOL. Kobe's prime lasted as long as Bird's entire career. Not to mention Bird played alongside two top 50 of all time players in their prime. Furthermore, he got outplayed by Magic during his era. Nobody outplayed Kobe during their era in terms of sheer domination. Like I said, you wont find too many people outside of Celtics fans that would disagree with the fact that Kobe has already surpassed Bird.

Now a more interesting debate would be Lebron v. Bird as this is still a legitimate debate. Lebron was able to finally get that elusive ring. One thing I can say for sure is that Lebron has no shot at becoming the greatest ever. Not only because of the Miamia jump ship incident but the fact that he disappeared from big moments in the playoffs too many times and that horrendous Finals performance against Dallas. However, the man is well on his way to becoming one of the greatests to ever play the game. If he continues at this level for the next 4-5 years and wins another 2-3 titles, id say he would clearly be ahead of Hakeem and Bird at that point to edge in the top 10. But a lot of things have to go his way. With the Lakers re-tooling and Durant coming after that title, its not going to get easier for Lebron to keep winning, especially since Wade is clearly on the decline at this point.

+1

Though I do think it's pretty close on who is better between Kobe and Bird at this point. A legit argument could be made either way. However, Kobe will most likely finish his career higher than Bird on the top 10 list to the point where it is no longer debatable.

el hidalgo
10-27-2012, 08:59 PM
LOL. Kobe's prime lasted as long as Bird's entire career. Not to mention Bird played alongside two top 50 of all time players in their prime. Furthermore, he got outplayed by Magic during his era. Nobody outplayed Kobe during their era in terms of sheer domination. Like I said, you wont find too many people outside of Celtics fans that would disagree with the fact that Kobe has already surpassed Bird.

Now a more interesting debate would be Lebron v. Bird as this is still a legitimate debate. Lebron was able to finally get that elusive ring. One thing I can say for sure is that Lebron has no shot at becoming the greatest ever. Not only because of the Miamia jump ship incident but the fact that he disappeared from big moments in the playoffs too many times and that horrendous Finals performance against Dallas. However, the man is well on his way to becoming one of the greatests to ever play the game. If he continues at this level for the next 4-5 years and wins another 2-3 titles, id say he would clearly be ahead of Hakeem and Bird at that point to edge in the top 10. But a lot of things have to go his way. With the Lakers re-tooling and Durant coming after that title, its not going to get easier for Lebron to keep winning, especially since Wade is clearly on the decline at this point.

Kobe played with Shaq, arguably the most dominant player ever. that cant be overlooked.

d12 fanatic
10-27-2012, 09:00 PM
Kobe played with Shaq, arguably the most dominant player ever. that cant be overlooked.

llullz u mad bro?

Mr Costanza
10-27-2012, 09:24 PM
llullz u mad bro?

Lol this should be it for you :clap:

Hawkeye15
10-27-2012, 09:25 PM
+1

Though I do think it's pretty close on who is better between Kobe and Bird at this point. A legit argument could be made either way. However, Kobe will most likely finish his career higher than Bird on the top 10 list to the point where it is no longer debatable.

agreed. If Kobe hasn't already passed Bird, he will. I struggle with it honestly, I kinda think Kobe already passed him after the last few years of me re-evaluating my top guys, and sliding Bird down to 8ish.

N3TS
10-28-2012, 06:08 AM
That's cool that LeBron wants to be the best of all time, I'm sure when his career is all said and done he will be up there, but growing up in the Jordan era, I still think he will be the best. Jordan won through some of the most adverse times in his life that few people would even play through not just testing his physical gifts but his mental toughness and the hardest thing to get over heartache. He played some of his best ball going through these hardships which is the surprising thing, although not everyone is as strong as that, nor do I expect them to be, but MJ was truly great at what he did.

marferrer
10-28-2012, 09:23 AM
Agree. He WILL finish Top 10.

He may have needed Wade and Bosh but that doesn't take much away from him dominating the league. It's like saying Kobe aint be better than Magic because he had Pau, LO, Shaq now Nash and Dwight.

t_money25
10-28-2012, 10:03 AM
It's funny how when posters compare players in the NBA forum rings mean everything but in the NFL forum rings mean almost nothing since football is a team sport......wait a minute? Isn't basketball a team sport too or am I missing something??

beliges
10-28-2012, 01:08 PM
[/QUOTE]

Kobe played with Shaq, arguably the most dominant player ever. that cant be overlooked.[/QUOTE]

Bird played with Parish, McHale, Ainge, DJ and on one of the most talented teams ever assembled. What's your point? I know you're not trying to make the point that Kobe's teams were somehow more talented than Bird's Celtics. Magic played with Kareem, the greatest C to ever play the game. He's considered better than bird.

beliges
10-28-2012, 01:12 PM
It's funny how when posters compare players in the NBA forum rings mean everything but in the NFL forum rings mean almost nothing since football is a team sport......wait a minute? Isn't basketball a team sport too or am I missing something??

Yes you're missing something big. Football is a sport where one individual player can only dominate so much. Its a sport that relies on the little pieces. You need great defensive players, a great line and great protection to win a Superbowl. In basketball, one individual player can.dominate the entire game. One individual player can lead a team to a championship. That's why in the NBA, if you look at the greatest of the great players, they are all multiple.champions. Because in the NBA, you're numbers mean.less than your ability to win.

rockbottom2010
10-28-2012, 01:24 PM
This.

But not probably, he will finish top 10 all-time. He just won't surpass MJ.

ppl don't realize the fact that lbj got his first title at 27 and jordan at 28....

Jordan's Career
6 NBA champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
6 NBA Finals MVP (19911993, 19961998)
5 NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 19911992, 1996, 1998)
14 NBA All-Star (19851993, 19961998, 20022003)
3 NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
10 NBA scoring champion (19871993, 19961998)
3 NBA steals champion (1988, 1990, 1993)
10 All-NBA First Team (19871993, 19961998)
All-NBA Second Team (1985)
9 NBA All-Defensive First Team (19881993, 19961998)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1985)

Lebron's Career - So far
NBA champion (2012)
NBA Finals MVP (2012)
3 NBA Most Valuable Player (20092010, 2012)
8 NBA All-Star (20052012)
2 NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)
NBA scoring champion (2008)
6 All-NBA First Team (2006, 20082012)
2 All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
4 NBA All-Defensive First Team (20092012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2004)

With Lebron's Health...he can play up to his 40s no problem

rockbottom2010
10-28-2012, 01:32 PM
once lebron hits in his 30s...then we can see if its comparable to jordan's career....right now...its too early

dh144498
10-29-2012, 03:01 PM
WTF are you talking about? Did you even watch Pippen play? Aside from Lebron, Pippen was probably the greatest point forward in the history of the game. He consistently posted 20/5/6 for much of his career (not counting the fact that he's arguably the greatest wing defender in the history of the NBA).


Lol. Career arguments are always going to be a moot point. So, yes, technically you can have a greater career than MJ. And the whole "Lebron couldn't win without Wade and Bosh" argument is completely BS when you consider that MJ couldn't win one until Pippen came into his prime or the fact that other all time greats also played with all-time great players (Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, etc.).


Lebron doesn't need to win seven championships to surpass MJ, because championships are not the only contributing factor to a player's career. If they were, than Robert Horry would have technically had a greater career than Jordan.

this lebron stan here.... :facepalm:
they always bring up the Robert Horry argument when people are talking about rings like it's supposed to be a valid argument. Cause Robert Horry was ever on the level of Jordan and Kobe?

dh144498
10-29-2012, 03:06 PM
Lebron won't surpass Jordan unless he ends up winning something like 7 MVPs and 7 championships. His epic fail in the 2007 finals and, even worse, the 2011 finals are not things that help his case. He'll have to do way more than what MJ have done to surpass him.

el hidalgo
10-29-2012, 03:12 PM
this lebron stan here.... :facepalm:
they always bring up the Robert Horry argument when people are talking about rings like it's supposed to be a valid argument. Cause Robert Horry was ever on the level of Jordan and Kobe?

Kobe was never on the level Jordan was, so your argument is a wash.

rockbottom2010
10-29-2012, 03:29 PM
Kobe was never on the level Jordan was, so your argument is a wash.

this is true

rockbottom2010
10-29-2012, 03:31 PM
Lebron won't surpass Jordan unless he ends up winning something like 7 MVPs and 7 championships. His epic fail in the 2007 finals and, even worse, the 2011 finals are not things that help his case. He'll have to do way more than what MJ have done to surpass him.

lebron is in a better situation than jordan was.....

dh144498
10-29-2012, 03:32 PM
Kobe was never on the level Jordan was, so your argument is a wash.

so Robert Horry is comparable to Kobe as a player? Seems like your reply is a wash and you are not even staying on the point. What I said wasn't even an argument, it's just what it is. No one ever compared Robert Horry to any of the all time greats until Lebron stans came along and use it to counter the ring argument. Run along now and stay on topic, don't digress because you are sour towards a player.

dh144498
10-29-2012, 03:34 PM
lebron is in a better situation than jordan was.....

going 22ppg on 36% fg in the finals and then 18ppg and getting outscored in another finals by a bench player is definitely a better situation than what MJ was in...... enlighten us with your thoughts.

mightybosstone
10-29-2012, 03:34 PM
Lebron won't surpass Jordan unless he ends up winning something like 7 MVPs and 7 championships. His epic fail in the 2007 finals and, even worse, the 2011 finals are not things that help his case. He'll have to do way more than what MJ have done to surpass him.

I'll admit the 2011 finals doesn't do him any favors, but how in the hell do you consider the 2007 finals to be an "epic fail"? He was playing with inferior teammates against a superior Spurs team. And if he hadn't played out of his mind in the playoffs, they never would have been in the finals in the first place.

dh144498
10-29-2012, 03:41 PM
I'll admit the 2011 finals doesn't do him any favors, but how in the hell do you consider the 2007 finals to be an "epic fail"? He was playing with inferior teammates against a superior Spurs team. And if he hadn't played out of his mind in the playoffs, they never would have been in the finals in the first place.

his production went from 26-8-8 on 43% to 22-7-7 on 36%. That's a huge drop off wouldn't you agree? I'm not targeting the fact that he lost, it's how he lost. If he played his mind out like the way he did against Orlando in 09 and still lost, I wouldn't hold it against him.

el hidalgo
10-29-2012, 03:41 PM
Lebron won't surpass Jordan unless he ends up winning something like 7 MVPs and 7 championships. His epic fail in the 2007 finals and, even worse, the 2011 finals are not things that help his case. He'll have to do way more than what MJ have done to surpass him.

Enlighten me on how you think Kobe would have done with that roster in place of lebron. Kobe had a better team in 04-05 and didnt even make the playoffs

Hawkeye15
10-29-2012, 03:44 PM
his production went from 26-8-8 on 43% to 22-7-7 on 36%. That's a huge drop off wouldn't you agree? I'm not targeting the fact that he lost, it's how he lost. If he played his mind out like the way he did against Orlando in 09 and still lost, I wouldn't hold it against him.

how did Kobe fair (individually) in his first finals? And he was option #2. LeBron had a wall built around him by the Spurs, and they forced his role players to step up, and we all know what happened there...