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View Full Version : Did Dan Gilbert Fail Cleveland Fans?



JasonJohnHorn
10-26-2012, 12:01 AM
We are a couple seasons removed from the LBJ 'decsion', and I think we can look at things a little more objectively. Firstly, I will admit that I am one of the many fans who had a hate on James for leaving, and especially leaving in the fashion which he did, and I'm still not a fan though I recognize that he is the best player on the planet. But now, looking back in hindsight, I think it was hard to expect James to stay in that situation. Granted, Jordon stuck it out in Chi-town for a little longer than James did in Cleveland, but it was also very clear that Chicago was headed in the right direction.

When James first got to Cleveland he had Boozer and Big Z to work with. Then they had that whole Boozer debacle where they let him go to free agency expecting to sign him at a discounted rate even though they didn't have the cap space to match any offers, and he got stolen away by the Jazz. Luckily they manage to bring in Anderson-V and Gooden (who wasn't with the team for long). But lets face it, and aging Big Z and Mo-Will? And aging Shaq. I think they brought in enough 'talent' to win, but not at the right positions. When you look back at Philly, LAL and Boston int he 80's, and Detroit, and Chicago in the 90's, you saw teams that had three or more HOFers on the roster. Dr. J with Moses then Barkley. Magic wth Worthy and Kareem. Isiah Thomas with Dumars and Rodman. Jordan with Pippen and Rodman. The best the Cavs could do is swing for Mo-Will, and then for an aging Shaq, and Jamison who was entering the downslope of his career. James never had anybody as good as Pippen to work with, and it was clear, considering the Cavs cap-space situation and their inability to draft quality players that they weren't going to have the pieces needed to win anytime soon.

Did James have enough talent around him to win? I think potentially, yes he did. But they weren't going to be getting it done with the coach they had, no offence to Mike Brown, but his offensive sets were awful. I've never seen so many isolation players during crunch time, or throughout an entire game for that matter. And Gilbert did nothing to correct that situation despite the fact that is was clear Brown was in over his head. And Gilbert kept Danny Ferry longer than he should have.

So in the end, can you really blame James for leaving? The organization simply wasn't run very well and they ultimately failed to put the proper talent around James. When James's contract was up, so was Big Z's, and Shaq's, which left James with Mo-Will, Jamison and Anderson-V. The Cavs were essentially looking at rebuilding at that point. They had no bench, and they didn't even have a starting line-up that was filled out.

I think ultimately, in hindsight, though Gilbert obviously put the effort out (I mean, the Cavs took on a huge payroll and were constantly making trades to try and bring in talent), he failed the team. He put the wrong people in place (Mike Brown and DannyFerry) and failed to move them when it became clear they weren't getting the job done and it essentially lefts the Cavs in rebuilding mode at the same time James's contract was up. There was HOF left on the roster, and nobody at the level of Scottie Pippen or Rodman like Jordan had, or McHale and Parish like Bird had, or Kareem and Worthy like Magic had, or Dumars and Rodman like Thomas had, or... well... I'm not sure if Dr. J had Moses or is Moses had Dr. J, but outside of James there was nobody on the Cavs roster as good as Moses or Dr. J.

So how about it? James has played the villian the last couple years, but isn't it about time to acknowledge that it was Dan Gilbert who ultimately failed that Cavs fans?

tapajafri
10-26-2012, 12:06 AM
Yes, I totally agree. Great points, especially at the end about who to blame. Everyone wanted to blame Lebron for leaving (and some still want to) but it's time to face that fact that most players would have left that dreadful situation in Cleveland. Danny Ferry was Gilbert's biggest mistake. Ferry was unabale to get the pieces necessary.

In Lebron's last Cavs season, there was all that trade deadline talk heating up about the cavs getting Bosh or Stoudemire. There was a deal in place to get Stoudemire, but Ferry didn't want to part ways with JJ Hickson..... so instead they settled for Antwan Jamison as the "missing piece that was going to get Cleveland a championship."

jrm2054
10-26-2012, 12:13 AM
Ya not giving up Jj for amare IMO is what sealed him leaving awful decision

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 12:16 AM
He gave Lebron every decision in every free agent or trade they pursued. Even so much so they got a 4x DPOY who won a title as the only allstar on the team and also a guy who won 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and was the allstar game mvp winner the season before joining forces in Cleveland.

And it's funny you say noone of the level of Rodman or Pippen, but yet Shaq was better than both. Rodman was 37 on the Bulls, Shaq 38 on the Cavs and the allstar game mvp the year before while Rodman hadn't made an allstar game in 4 years and never with the Bulls.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg

And Ben Wallace was clearly the man on the Pistons. He finished 7th in MVP voting that year when no one else was even on the list. Not to mention was the only allstar on the team. The team had been the #1 seed the year prior as well before Rasheed even got there.
And I love how people dismiss Shaq as if he was a scrub. He not only outscored Lebron in the pivotal game 5 when the Cavs got blown out, but he was also the allstar game mvp the season before joining Lebron and put up 18 ppg and 8 rpg that season. Not to mention a 3x finals mvp winner and 1x league mvp winner. Fact is, is that Lebron those years had guys who were proven winners already.

JasonJohnHorn
10-26-2012, 12:20 AM
He gave Lebron every decision in every free agent or trade they pursued. Even so much so they got a 4x DPOY who won a title as the only allstar on the team and also a guy who won 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and was the allstar game mvp winner the season before joining forces in Cleveland.

And it's funny you say noone of the level of Rodman or Pippen, but yet Shaq was better than both. Rodman was 37 on the Bulls, Shaq 38 on the Cavs and the allstar game mvp the year before while Rodman hadn't made an allstar game in 4 years and never with the Bulls.

Shaq did not take care of himself the way Rodman did. Yes, they got Shaq, but Shaq was a shadow of his former self. And yes, they got Ben Wallace, but Ben Wallace was well past his prime. And the bottom line is, when James's contract was up, they didn't have any of those guys under contract. All they had for James to work with was Mo-Will, Anderson-V an Jamison.

Quinnsanity
10-26-2012, 12:23 AM
They were consistently a high playoff seed for his first few years, now they're rebuilding around someone who's going to be a top 10 player and have had a number of high picks. They have been very well managed since LeBron left, learning from the mistakes they made when they had him. I'd be willing to bet that at least half of the fanbases in the league would trade what happened to them over Gilbert's ownership period with what happened in Cleveland.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 12:25 AM
Shaq did not take care of himself the way Rodman did. Yes, they got Shaq, but Shaq was a shadow of his former self. And yes, they got Ben Wallace, but Ben Wallace was well past his prime. And the bottom line is, when James's contract was up, they didn't have any of those guys under contract. All they had for James to work with was Mo-Will, Anderson-V an Jamison.

MJ didn't acquire a guy that was an elite player either. He acquired a guy that was coming off the bench that became a top player in the league over time after playing with MJ. That is a Big Difference. It's one thing if MJ got Pippen like Wade got Shaq when he was already a top 5-10 player in the league. He didn't though.

So Saying Lebron doesn't have an elite player on his team is irrelevant in this case because MJ didn't get a elite player either to play with. The equivalent of that happening for Lebron is basically having a guy who came off the bench initially and that was raw and then a few years later is an allstar and top player in the league. Example for Lebron would be JJ Hickson turning into a star.

Source: NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_081205.html)


Do you think in the end the one true comparison that will distinguish (Jordan and LeBron) is of course championships and awards records, etc., but the way Michael made people around him become better of course, but more specifically, Scottie Pippen.
Scottie did pull off some great moves that took extrordinary talent, but his ability to learn might have been the extraordinary part. Can LeBron create a Scottie Pippen type player or was Scottie an extension of MJ? All I know is these two together created some of the best and most extensive set of highlight reels man has ever known, some will say LeBron will need his Phil Jackson, and his Scottie Pippen.




Sam: It's starting to look like LeBron is about there,
and he may not need to turn someone into a Hall of Famer, as Jordan did for Pippen.
The league is not as strong or deep now, and I had a GM tell me this week he not only believes the Cavs will win the East, he thinks they'll win it all. And if that does
happen (remember, hardly anyone was picking the Bulls in 1991), it may mess up a lot of free agency plans as the likelihood is LeBron then stays in Cleveland.

tapajafri
10-26-2012, 05:01 AM
MJ didn't acquire a guy that was an elite player either. He acquired a guy that was coming off the bench that became a top player in the league over time after playing with MJ. That is a Big Difference. It's one thing if MJ got Pippen like Wade got Shaq when he was already a top 5-10 player in the league. He didn't though.

So Saying Lebron doesn't have an elite player on his team is irrelevant in this case because MJ didn't get a elite player either to play with. The equivalent of that happening for Lebron is basically having a guy who came off the bench initially and that was raw and then a few years later is an allstar and top player in the league. Example for Lebron would be JJ Hickson turning into a star.

Source: NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_081205.html)

You can bring up stats, quotes, and all that stuff if you want...and to an extent, you make a solid point. But it still doesn't take away from the fact that the Cavs didn't have the necessary help around Lebron to get by the likes of a Boston or a 2007 San Antonio. Hell, even the 2009 Magic (who were pretty stacked) were too much for them. Yes, it's true that Lebron had SOME pretty good players. Maybe washed up Shaq and washed up Ben Wallace weren't AS BAD as some people think. But look, the Cavs were one of the better teams in the NBA, but not one of the top 2 or 3. They would rack up 61 wins in a season (mostly against the 27 teams they were better than) but when it came down to a playoff series, they would ALWAYS lose to that 1 team of the 2 teams that was better than them. Making a trade for a player like Bosh or Stoudemire would've put Cleveland over the top. Yes, Shaq had a surprisingly good season the year before CLE and Ben Wallace was the centerpiece of a great Pistons team.....but things sure changed quickly because when Shaq was on Cleveland, he was throwing bricks up all over the paint and Ben Wallace wasn't as valuable/effective without Rasheed, Prince, Rip, and Billups. So yes, you're right about Shaq and others not being as bad as some people thing...but the fact still remains that Dan Gilbert hired a poor head coach, a poor GM, and the management/front office as a whole was unable to get Lebron the help he needed to put them over the top as one of the top 2 teams in the league. Look at the other starters Lebron had from 2007 to 2010. Eric Snow, Larry Hughes, Varejao, Drew Gooden, etc. I mean some of the guys weren't THAT bad, but they sure as hell weren't what Allen and Garnett were to Pierce. They weren't what Bryant and Bynum were to Gasol in 2010. They weren't what Duncan and Ginobili were to Parker in 2007. Etc...

Antipod
10-26-2012, 05:35 AM
Ya not giving up Jj for amare IMO is what sealed him leaving awful decision

Exactly

ottograham14
10-26-2012, 08:40 AM
Dan Gilbert did everything he possibly could do to make the Cavaliers a winner in the NBA and is still doing it to this day. He did everything Lebron asked him to do within the realm of his possibility. Everyone needs to get over this Amare kicker that if JJ was involved it would have went down. It's like everyone plays NBA2K too much and just assumes that any team can get any player they ever want. Takes two to tango people. Many other factors went into play that year and also even with Amare, would that have put them over the hump, we will never know as Lebron still probably would have flopped in the playoffs.

Dan Gilbert didn't fail Cleveland as he is still here making the team better year in and year out and learning from his mistakes that you don't completely cater your team to one guy. Lebron is not here anymore, and yes he did give Cleveland 7 very good years and I am over blaming him but the way he held the team on his every command for the final 2 years is the problem I have with the whole situation when he probably knew he wanted to go play with his buddies the entire time and continually would throw out stupid comments making the Cavs fan base have hope that he was going to stay.

C_Mund
10-26-2012, 10:55 AM
Yeah he did, but so did Lebron. If you want to be able to build a championship team around a player you need a commitment from that player to stay there. Who's going to sign long-term in Cleveland knowing that Lebron is humming and hawing his way to free agency? If LBJ had signed his extension the year before "the decision" there would have been players begging to go to Cleveland. Basically you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to be a destination, you have to sign a legal document saying you won't jump ship as soon as possible.

justinnum1
10-26-2012, 11:00 AM
As usual, jb throws out the bait, and some of you guys take it. :pity:

bucketss
10-26-2012, 11:02 AM
why is he bringing up jordan? this guy is so insecure :laugh2:

JiffyMix88
10-26-2012, 11:13 AM
yeah he failed his team cause he thought lebron wanted to be like mj and win with a team built around him apparentaly he was wrong lebron wanted superstars around him. they weren't gonna win with lebron hes done a good job rebuilding thus far so who cares its in the past

sep11ie
10-26-2012, 11:16 AM
He gave Lebron every decision in every free agent or trade they pursued. Even so much so they got a 4x DPOY who won a title as the only allstar on the team and also a guy who won 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and was the allstar game mvp winner the season before joining forces in Cleveland.

And it's funny you say noone of the level of Rodman or Pippen, but yet Shaq was better than both. Rodman was 37 on the Bulls, Shaq 38 on the Cavs and the allstar game mvp the year before while Rodman hadn't made an allstar game in 4 years and never with the Bulls.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg

And Ben Wallace was clearly the man on the Pistons. He finished 7th in MVP voting that year when no one else was even on the list. Not to mention was the only allstar on the team. The team had been the #1 seed the year prior as well before Rasheed even got there.
And I love how people dismiss Shaq as if he was a scrub. He not only outscored Lebron in the pivotal game 5 when the Cavs got blown out, but he was also the allstar game mvp the season before joining Lebron and put up 18 ppg and 8 rpg that season. Not to mention a 3x finals mvp winner and 1x league mvp winner. Fact is, is that Lebron those years had guys who were proven winners already.


The term "NBA All Star" and "All Star game MVP" should be used loosely. You act as if it means something...

bucketss
10-26-2012, 11:19 AM
you're talking about the same guy who discredits players because they won a bronze medal in the olympics.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 11:22 AM
Shaq did not take care of himself the way Rodman did. Yes, they got Shaq, but Shaq was a shadow of his former self. And yes, they got Ben Wallace, but Ben Wallace was well past his prime. And the bottom line is, when James's contract was up, they didn't have any of those guys under contract. All they had for James to work with was Mo-Will, Anderson-V an Jamison.

Just ignore him the way he ignores injuries and impact. Have you seen the quote where he trys to put Marion+Kidd on the same level as Pippen+Rodman/Horace?

theheatles
10-26-2012, 11:27 AM
He gave Lebron every decision in every free agent or trade they pursued. Even so much so they got a 4x DPOY who won a title as the only allstar on the team and also a guy who won 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and was the allstar game mvp winner the season before joining forces in Cleveland.

And it's funny you say noone of the level of Rodman or Pippen, but yet Shaq was better than both. Rodman was 37 on the Bulls, Shaq 38 on the Cavs and the allstar game mvp the year before while Rodman hadn't made an allstar game in 4 years and never with the Bulls.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg

And Ben Wallace was clearly the man on the Pistons. He finished 7th in MVP voting that year when no one else was even on the list. Not to mention was the only allstar on the team. The team had been the #1 seed the year prior as well before Rasheed even got there.
And I love how people dismiss Shaq as if he was a scrub. He not only outscored Lebron in the pivotal game 5 when the Cavs got blown out, but he was also the allstar game mvp the season before joining Lebron and put up 18 ppg and 8 rpg that season. Not to mention a 3x finals mvp winner and 1x league mvp winner. Fact is, is that Lebron those years had guys who were proven winners already.

You are a maniac...what does it matter what Ben Wallace was in Detroit in his prime? Let's focus on what he was while in Cleveland...

2007–08 Cleveland 22 22 26.3 .457 .000 .432 7.4 .6 .9 1.7 4.2
2008–09 Cleveland 56 53 23.5 .445 .000 .422 6.5 .8 .9 1.3 2.9

if Ben Wallace isn't a stud on defense, he becomes a huge hindrance to the team and what they want to do...Ben was always undersized and when his athleticism and physicality decreased, he became inept for a championship contending team. Averaging 7.4 and 6.5 rpg in Cleveland, as well as being below career averages across the board.

Again, don't focus on what Shaq was in his prime, focus on what he was while in Cleveland.

2009–10 Cleveland 53 53 23.4 .566 .000 .496 6.7 1.5 .3 1.2 12.0

Shaq and Wallace were done physically and everything that made them elite was gone and with them not being able to dominate on either end, they were even bigger liabilities since they were both arguably the 2 worst free throw shooters of their era.

Then if you look at Pippen and Rodmans stats in the championship years with the Bulls, it's just a joke of a comparison you are making...

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/663/scottie-pippen

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/726/dennis-rodman

Pippen was a much greater defender than either at those points in their careers. Pippen averaged more rebounds than either in that span. Pippen scored more than both combined.

Rodman had twice as many rpg than either Shaq or Wallace in that span and Rodman was the much superior defender in that time span than Shaq or Ben was while in Cleveland.


I'm starting to think you are paid by PSD to troll...how much of the Miller 64 money do you get?

Chronz
10-26-2012, 11:32 AM
Yeah he did, but so did Lebron. If you want to be able to build a championship team around a player you need a commitment from that player to stay there. Who's going to sign long-term in Cleveland knowing that Lebron is humming and hawing his way to free agency? If LBJ had signed his extension the year before "the decision" there would have been players begging to go to Cleveland. Basically you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to be a destination, you have to sign a legal document saying you won't jump ship as soon as possible.

Nobody was begging to go to Cleveland when he reupped, both Ray Allen and Redd decided to stay in small markets, Redd was particularly crippling because they were banking on him wanting to come back to Ohio, he still chose Milwaukee.


....


MILWAUKEE BEAT CLEVELAND.... let that sink in

Chronz
10-26-2012, 11:36 AM
I'm starting to think you are paid by PSD to troll...

Hes hoping people start respecting his copy and paste technique but a flawed argument loses no matter how often you repeat it. He doesn't mention how Shaq and Ben (The 2 guys he emphasizes most) were both playing injured in the playoffs and totally dismisses context. Hes trying to trick himself into thinkin MJ won a title without an All-Star and compares them to Jason Kidd and Marion in their title year. That exposes his selective analysis, he wont look at stats unless they get his point across instead of being consistent. Basically you've been trolled but not by a troll, by something much more dangerous, a true believer in his trolling.

bucketss
10-26-2012, 11:47 AM
he doesn't even mention that shaq only played around 20 minutes a game

SteBO
10-26-2012, 11:50 AM
Just ignore him the way he ignores injuries and impact. Have you seen the quote where he trys to put Marion+Kidd on the same level as Pippen+Rodman/Horace?
Funniest thing I've read today......

Still, how can anyone expect any star to win championships with Mo Williams as your second best player?

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 12:14 PM
Wait a minute, do people really think Amare Stoudemire was gonna be the difference between them beating Boston and San Antonio? Lmao. Please, that bum would have not been a factor and those two experienced Hall of Fame rosters and coaches would still have won. Those Cavs teams were defensive oriented, all Amare would have done was make it worse. Besides, from what I've read, the Suns wanted much more than just Hickson, which is why the deal fell apart.

Say what you want, but Ferry did a good job without having much to work with. I mean, who were the great players beating down the door to come to Cleveland anyway? The Cavs missed the playoffs the year before he took the job. In his five years, they made the Finals once and won 60+ games twice, without the benefit of more top draft picks from additional seasons of sucking like Presti and OKC. You want to fire him for that? All Ferry had to work with was a gifted yet somewhat immature LeBron (which is a good start, but still...), so he had to be even more creative with his moves, like all small market GMs. The Cavs still put together one of the deepest rosters in the league, played elite defense, and were the favorites to win it all multiple times -- that's a credit to both Lebron and Ferry.

The biggest thing working against Cleveland is that it was not a sexy market. David Stern made this a star-driven league, a sexy market driven league, so if you couldn't sell a star player on not only a chance at a ring but also a greater lifestyle, you were **** outta luck. They had a great run, then LeBron, who knew he was becoming one of the biggest stars in the world, decided he wanted a bigger stage. In the end, Cleveland could not compete with the city of Miami and a proven champion like Pat Riley. That could/will happen to a lot of small market clubs with a big star. Do I blame LeBron for leaving? Nope, because I know it's a business, something many sports fans fail to realize when they cry about loyalty and all that nonsense. I'm sure most Cavs fans have moved on, as they have a new young star to rally around.

SteBO
10-26-2012, 12:18 PM
Wait a minute, do people really think Amare Stoudemire was gonna be the difference between them beating Boston and San Antonio? Lmao. Please, that bum would have not been a factor and those two experienced Hall of Fame rosters and coaches would still have won. Besides, from what I've read, the Suns wanted much more than just Hickson, which is why the deal fell apart.

Say what you want, but Ferry did a good job without having much to work with. I mean, who were the great player beating down the door to come to Cleveland anyway? The Cavs missed the playoffs the year before he took the job. In his five years, they made the Finals once and won 60+ games twice, without the benefit of more top draft picks from additional seasons of sucking like Presti and OKC. You want to fire him for that? All Ferry had to work with was a gifted yet somewhat immature LeBron (which is a good start, but still...), so he had to be even more creative with his moves, like all small market GMs. The Cavs still put together one of the deepest rosters in the league, played elite defense, and were the favorites to win it all multiple times -- that's a credit to both Lebron and Ferry.

The biggest thing working against Cleveland is that they were not a sexy market. David Stern made this a star-driven league, a big market driven league, so if you couldn't sell a player on not only a chance at a ring but also a greater lifestyle, you were **** outta luck. They had a great run, then LeBron, who knew he was becoming one of the biggest stars in the world, decided he wanted a bigger stage. In the end, Cleveland could not compete with the city of Miami and a proven champion like Pat Riley. Do I blame LeBron for leaving? Nope, because I know it's a business, something many sports fans fail to realize when they cry about loyalty and all that nonsense. I'm sure most Cavs fans have moved on, as they have a new young star to rally around.
Against Boston, it might have, but that's pretty much it as far as I'm concerned. What also gets left out is that Cleveland was extrememly cap-strung because of the bad contracts.

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 12:36 PM
Against Boston, it might have, but that's pretty much it as far as I'm concerned. What also gets left out is that Cleveland was extrememly cap-strung because of the bad contracts.
In 2010? We'll disagree there. I thought that Celtics' team was just on a mission that only got derailed because of Perkins' injury and Artest's 3-pointer in Game 7. Stoudemire would not have stopped them. Ferry made some deals that backfired, but that doesn't mean he failed. Every GM has missteps, and like I said, he didn't have a whole lot of assets/picks to work with. It's much tougher in a situation like the one Cleveland had.

OKC is about to run into cap issues, and some would say Presti giving Perkins that huge contract was a bad move. If the Thunder don't win it all and Harden leaves for a bigger market or more money, then KD leaves in a couple years, does that mean Sam's tenure was a failure? Nope, not to me. Compare that scenario or Ferry's Cavs to Billy Knight's reign with the Hawks ('03-'08): Screwing up top 10 picks, never finding a legit point guard, and never establishing an identity for your franchise. Knight makes Ferry look like Jerry West.

C_Mund
10-26-2012, 12:37 PM
Nobody was begging to go to Cleveland when he reupped, both Ray Allen and Redd decided to stay in small markets, Redd was particularly crippling because they were banking on him wanting to come back to Ohio, he still chose Milwaukee.


....


MILWAUKEE BEAT CLEVELAND.... let that sink in

Fair enough, but you don't see things shaking down differently had Lebron re-upped? Like Bosh wouldn't still have ditched the Raps and maybe gone to Cleveland? I agree that in their state at the time nobody wanted to go there because Lebron was all like "I have no idea what's going to happen in free agency.... I haven't thought about it." The guy is a draw and he has friends jocking him all over the league. There's obviously so way to argue my point, I just think that if he'd waited it out a bit longer and committed then talent would have started flocking.

SteBO
10-26-2012, 12:49 PM
In 2010? We'll disagree there. I thought that Celtics' team was just on a mission that only got derailed because of Perkins' injury and Artest's 3-pointer in Game 7. Stoudemire would not have stopped them. Ferry made some deals that backfired, but that doesn't mean he failed. Every GM has missteps, and like I said, he didn't have a whole lot of assets/picks to work with. It's much tougher in a situation like the one Cleveland had.

OKC is about to run into cap issues, and some would say Presti giving Perkins that huge contract was a bad move. If the Thunder don't win it all and Harden leaves for a bigger market or more money, then KD leaves in a couple years, does that mean Sam's tenure was a failure? Nope, not to me. Compare that scenario or Ferry's Cavs to Billy Knight's reign with the Hawks ('03-'08): Screwing up top 10 picks, never finding a legit point guard, and never establishing an identity for your franchise. Knight makes Ferry look like Jerry West.
With Amare, Boston might have had to game plan differently. Regardless, they still would've gotten murdered by Rondo's penetration and they most likely would've packed the paint regardless against 'Bron's drives because of the ineptitude of everyone else. I found it comical that Mike Breen called it an upset because in reality I always thought that Boston was the better team that year.

ManRam
10-26-2012, 01:14 PM
He gave Lebron every decision in every free agent or trade they pursued. Even so much so they got a 4x DPOY who won a title as the only allstar on the team and also a guy who won 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and was the allstar game mvp winner the season before joining forces in Cleveland.

And it's funny you say noone of the level of Rodman or Pippen, but yet Shaq was better than both. Rodman was 37 on the Bulls, Shaq 38 on the Cavs and the allstar game mvp the year before while Rodman hadn't made an allstar game in 4 years and never with the Bulls.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg

And Ben Wallace was clearly the man on the Pistons. He finished 7th in MVP voting that year when no one else was even on the list. Not to mention was the only allstar on the team. The team had been the #1 seed the year prior as well before Rasheed even got there.
And I love how people dismiss Shaq as if he was a scrub. He not only outscored Lebron in the pivotal game 5 when the Cavs got blown out, but he was also the allstar game mvp the season before joining Lebron and put up 18 ppg and 8 rpg that season. Not to mention a 3x finals mvp winner and 1x league mvp winner. Fact is, is that Lebron those years had guys who were proven winners already.

Shaq sucked in Cleveland...at least in the playoffs. Who cares if he had more points in one game? Come on JB, you used to be better than this. His accolades from 5-10 years prior mean nothing. You bring it up all the time like it does. "Proven winners" is a fun little phrase that means nothing when you no longer have the talent to actually be an "actual winner". Ben Wallace was also a shell of himself. His 4 defensive POYs were a thing of the past. He was as bad of an offensive player in the league the two years he was with Cleveland. You cite stats ALL THE TIME when they support what you want them to support...just look at those guys' stats. Nothing more than average players (hardly even that...Shaq in the playoffs was a flat out liability).

Name me a team that had a singular all-star like LeBron that won a ring with the talent that LeBron had. Please. I'm begging. I ask a million times, yet no one can answer.

You know why, because it doesn't happen. Expecting LeBron to win in Cleveland is expecting the unprecedented. It's never happened. Could he have won with Cleveland? OF COURSE. Has anyone else won in a similar circumstance? HELL NO.

The closest thing to those Cavs teams are the Pistons -- who weren't constructed anything like the Cavs, and had far more talent from 1-8 -- and the 76ers team led by AI that lost in the Finals. Maybe Dirk's Mavericks, but even so, Kidd, Terry, Marion and Chandler were all better players than LeBron had most every year (Z was great early on). Maybe Hakeem in 94 (that was a WEAK NBA year)?


Kobe and Shaq had each other (and a lot more). Wade had a version of Shaq that was actually worth a damn (unlike LeBron). MJ always had a hall of famer. Bird had multiple HOFers. Magic and Kareem played with others HOFers, in addition to eachother. Duncan had HOFers. Isaiah/Dumars/Rodman had each other. Moses had Dr. J (and Toney and Cheeks who were All-Stars that year). It goes on and on and on.

LeBron now finally has a HOF player on his side...so quit acting like he ran off and got something that all the other greats never had.




Who the hell cares if he went "ring-chasing". He can do what he wants. He owed nothing to Cleveland. I doubt Jordan would have stuck around as poor of a franchise as LeBron was on. You think Kobe would have stayed in LA if they hadn't got Shaq and if he wasn't always blessed with great talent? Hell, he almost bolted the second it got kind of bad.

Your arguments over the years have regressed from logical, fair and unbiased to basically hackery and arguments that I can't imagine you actually typing without a huge smirk on your face.


"OMG! How awful was Kobe when he didn't win with 3 hall of famer, including 2 time MVP and 14 time all-star Karl Malone, plus 9x All-Star and rare guard defensive player of the year in Gary Payton, plus Shaquille ****ing O'Neal. God he was so terrible." --- JB Argument







Dan Gilbert hit the lottery when he got LeBron, and wasn't able to bring in consistent All-Star level talent like most every single one of the all time greats have needed to win in the past. He had something great, and they weren't able to bring in the consistent talent needed to sustain success. Bringing in different over-the-hill veterans every other year isn't the recipe to success. You need consistent, reliable and familiar talent...LeBron never really had that. He had Z early in his career, but LeBron was probably too young to really win at that time. By the time LeBron was in his prime, Z could hardly stay on the court.

Heatcheck
10-26-2012, 01:17 PM
Dan Gilbert did everything he possibly could do to make the Cavaliers a winner in the NBA and is still doing it to this day. He did everything Lebron asked him to do within the realm of his possibility. Everyone needs to get over this Amare kicker that if JJ was involved it would have went down. It's like everyone plays NBA2K too much and just assumes that any team can get any player they ever want. Takes two to tango people. Many other factors went into play that year and also even with Amare, would that have put them over the hump, we will never know as Lebron still probably would have flopped in the playoffs.

Dan Gilbert didn't fail Cleveland as he is still here making the team better year in and year out and learning from his mistakes that you don't completely cater your team to one guy. Lebron is not here anymore, and yes he did give Cleveland 7 very good years and I am over blaming him but the way he held the team on his every command for the final 2 years is the problem I have with the whole situation when he probably knew he wanted to go play with his buddies the entire time and continually would throw out stupid comments making the Cavs fan base have hope that he was going to stay.

Buddy, that was in the news. its not that somebody suggested it on this site and ran with it. yea its from sources, but its just as credible if not more solid than assuming he wanted to go play with his friends the whole time.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 01:20 PM
Wait a minute, do people really think Amare Stoudemire was gonna be the difference between them beating Boston and San Antonio?
You dont see how or why people would get excited about the prospects of pairing the best PnR finisher/shooter with a guy like LeBron?
San Antonio was years before the trade rumor popped up but if he had THAT Amare back in 2005 then its pretty interesting. In 2010 Amare was still an All-Star/All-NBA caliber player.



Lmao. Please, that bum would have not been a factor and those two experienced Hall of Fame rosters and coaches would still have won. Those Cavs teams were defensive oriented, all Amare would have done was make it worse. Besides, from what I've read, the Suns wanted much more than just Hickson, which is why the deal fell apart.
Well Antawn got absolutely destroyed vs KG and if they had gotten him to pair with Shaq they would have had instant chemistry instead of having to watch as Brown hastily try to build a rotation that didn't mix within a few weeks.


Say what you want, but Ferry did a good job without having much to work with.
Not even close, I dont remember if Ferry was in charge during the Boozer fiasco but this is about Clevelands ownership in general, and Ive NEVER seen a team downgrade a first rounder into a 2nd rounder as fast as Cleveland did when they traded for Jiri Welsch, Luke Jackson or some euro guy (I forget which) but they basically used a first rounder to make the trade only to ship him out for a 2nd rounder within a few weeks. Cleveland was a **** location but when you compound that with managerial negligence your practically begging for Bron to leave.



The Cavs missed the playoffs the year before he took the job. In his five years, they made the Finals once and won 60+ games twice, without the benefit of more top draft picks from additional seasons of sucking like Presti and OKC. You want to fire him for that? All Ferry had to work with was a gifted yet somewhat immature LeBron (which is a good start, but still...), so he had to be even more creative with his moves, like all small market GMs.
That was my main beef with Cleveland, they tried to build an instant contender around a teen instead of surrounding Bron with prospects he could grow with. They COMPLETELY dropped the ball on Boozer in that regard, the aforementioned forfeiture of a first rounder didn't help either, horrible decisions with the few resources they had.


The Cavs still put together one of the deepest rosters in the league, played elite defense, and were the favorites to win it all multiple times -- that's a credit to both Lebron and Ferry.
I dont see how thats a credit to Ferry when without Bron that team went to ****. They consistently failed to produce when he wasn't on the floor. They were deep but their success all hinged on Bron, **** didn't they go 0-7 the year they went to the Finals and had to watch Bron score damn near all the points in the 4th quarter+OT?

They did have a decent run, injuries kind of derailed them some but overall even if they didn't **** the team over ala Tracy in Orlando or PHX selling every draft pick they ever had but it was still a pretty mediocre job and thats the best I could say.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 01:29 PM
So if people are going to mention the Bulls having a 35-37 year old Rodman who never made an allstar team with the team, then I certainly can mention Ben Wallace.

Rodman had a 13.6, 13.9 and 12.4 PER on the Bulls as well as a .143, .148 and .131 WS/48

Ben Wallace had a 12.4, 12.2 and .138 WS/48 on the Cavs.

Rodman was 35-37 while Wallace was 33, 34 on the Cavs

Shaq didn't suck with Cleveland he still had a 18 PER and not to mention the season before had a 22 PER and averaged 18 and 8 for the season. The fact of the matter is is that every player that has played with Lebron there numbers drop dramatically.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 01:30 PM
Fair enough, but you don't see things shaking down differently had Lebron re-upped? Like Bosh wouldn't still have ditched the Raps and maybe gone to Cleveland?
They tried that, Bosh didn't want to go to Cleveland. Both would have reupped in Cleveland but if your Bosh, why would you sign with Cleveland to play with Bron when you can go to Miami and play with a similar player in Wade along with whomever they decided to add with the additional cap space they had?



I agree that in their state at the time nobody wanted to go there because Lebron was all like "I have no idea what's going to happen in free agency.... I haven't thought about it." The guy is a draw and he has friends jocking him all over the league. There's obviously so way to argue my point, I just think that if he'd waited it out a bit longer and committed then talent would have started flocking.
He gave Cleveland 7 years and they lost talent to the likes of Milwaukee, Seattle. He had an ownership that made dubious errors on multiple occasions. They had to overpay to a large degree just to get someone like Larry Hughes. While there may be some truth to your words its also possible that things remained the same and Cleveland remained the same undesirable, horribly managed team it was. I mean its one thing when a superstar doesn't want to come because Brons a FA soon, its quite another when someone like Trevor Ariza doesn't want to take big money to play in Cleveland.

All things considered, you can understand why Bron didn't want to risk his career on the small chance that maybe Cleveland becomes a desirable location and stops screwing up.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 01:32 PM
Name me a team that had a singular all-star like LeBron that won a ring with the talent that LeBron had. Please. I'm begging. I ask a million times, yet no one can answer.

You know why, because it doesn't happen. Expecting LeBron to win in Cleveland is expecting the unprecedented. It's never happened. Could he have won with Cleveland? OF COURSE. Has anyone else won in a similar circumstance? HELL NO.



Jordan did in 1991 and 1998 where he was the only allstar on his team and didn't have any proven players on his team that got it done.
Dirk in 2011 is another example, but then again he had Kidd who led teams to the finals as the man.
Hakeem in 1994 you could use to fit in that boat as well.

And I love how you always say MJ always had a hall of famer? No one other than MJ was a hall of famer when the Bulls won there title in 1991. Not even by 1993 would anyone else had made the hall of fame. So how did he always have a hall of famer, but Lebron didn't when he had Ben Wallace and Shaq who were already hall of famed bound in Cleveland one of which won the allstar game mvp the year before even more recent than Lebron had.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 01:33 PM
why is he bringing up jordan? this guy is so insecure :laugh2:

Jordan was mentioned in the original post.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2012, 01:39 PM
I have no doubt Gilbert TRIED to make his team a good team around LeBron. He simply is a very poor GM. I don't blame LeBron for leaving at all. He played with mediocre players at best his entire time in Cleveland. Good defenders, good defensive coach, terrible offensive players, terrible offensive coach. I had no doubt in my mind that he was leaving, until he announced the decision, which surprised me, because I thought he was staying in Cleveland if he was going through a big production. Turns out he leaves anyways. I for one, don't blame him.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 01:40 PM
Jordan did in 1991 and 1998 where he was the only allstar on his team and didn't have any proven players on his team that got it done.


LMFAO, Pippen was an All-Star in 1990 and PRODUCED AT A HIGHER RATE THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

Are you suggesting MJ would have had more talent alongside him if you replaced the superior version of Pippen with the player from the year prior that couldn't step up but happened to make the All-Star team? LMFAO this is why no one takes you seriousl when it comes to Bron/MJ. You state facts that have no meaning behind them.

kduce
10-26-2012, 01:41 PM
I can understand wanting to leave Cleveland, i really can. But how about being up front with the organization who was doing everything they could for you instead of waiting to make them look stupid on live tv?

How about you dont have them build a new practice facility so that it would be closer to your house if you were going to leave?

How about you dont have a damn special on tv about your decision and have a sit down with the right people and show some respect?

How about you don't try and act all noble and say the special is so you can "donate the money to charity" when you used the entire special to promote your damn vitamin water with obvious product placement everywhere you can get.

I like Lebron a lot more now that he has calmed down and is a little but more humble, but he couldnt have handled that situation any worse.

When Ben Wallace left Detroit we were upset that he did it, but we welcomed him back with open arms to come here and retire... imagine if Big Ben had a special on TV and the Pistons organization as well as his fan base here had to find out what hes decided at the same time as the rest of the world. So unprofessional, he might as well go on TV and just give us the finger.

theheatles
10-26-2012, 01:45 PM
"I PERSONALLY GUARANTEE THAT THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS WILL WIN AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BEFORE THE SELF-TITLED FORMER ‘KING’ WINS ONE. You can take it to the bank.''

yeah, I'd say he failed his fans...

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 01:47 PM
I'm not saying Lebron couldn't get help. What I am saying is How you win a ring matters. At least when Shaq left to go to LA he was the primary star right off the bat and didn't have a proven champion on the team. The way Lebron went to Miami will never help him in that Wade was already a proven champion in his prime and won with a franchise that never won prior to him arriving. That is the difference. Now say had Lebron gone to NY or NJ (now Brooklyn) or something like that or Utah to play with guys like Amare or Melo or Deron, etc, it would have been fine. But going to join forces with a guy who was arguably the best player in the league the season prior isn't going to help you.

Anyway, I don't call going to play with a guy who already won a title as the man in Wade "getting help", that is more that you are begging him for help to get you over the hump since he actually proved he can win as the man.

C_Mund
10-26-2012, 02:00 PM
They tried that, Bosh didn't want to go to Cleveland. Both would have reupped in Cleveland but if your Bosh, why would you sign with Cleveland to play with Bron when you can go to Miami and play with a similar player in Wade along with whomever they decided to add with the additional cap space they had?


He gave Cleveland 7 years and they lost talent to the likes of Milwaukee, Seattle. He had an ownership that made dubious errors on multiple occasions. They had to overpay to a large degree just to get someone like Larry Hughes. While there may be some truth to your words its also possible that things remained the same and Cleveland remained the same undesirable, horribly managed team it was. I mean its one thing when a superstar doesn't want to come because Brons a FA soon, its quite another when someone like Trevor Ariza doesn't want to take big money to play in Cleveland.

All things considered, you can understand why Bron didn't want to risk his career on the small chance that maybe Cleveland becomes a desirable location and stops screwing up.

I will not disagree with you at all. I guess I'm a dreamer. I really wanted him to stay in Cleveland and start winning championships. But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Redd and Allen both re-up? I know it's called free agency for a reason, but if a player with that much talent is staying put it doesn't really matter what else is out there. Besides, it was only a matter of time before the Raps groomed another good player that would want out.....*slowly lowers head and kicks at some dirt*

SteBO
10-26-2012, 02:00 PM
I can understand wanting to leave Cleveland, i really can. But how about being up front with the organization who was doing everything they could for you instead of waiting to make them look stupid on live tv?
This, I agree with.


How about you dont have them build a new practice facility so that it would be closer to your house if you were going to leave?
:confused: Did LBJ tell them to do it? If you have a link stating this as a fact, then please do, but as far as I know that was the Cavs' decision. Not 'Bron's.


How about you dont have a damn special on tv about your decision and have a sit down with the right people and show some respect?
The television show was tasteless. He shouldn't have done it. No disagreement there, though what gets lost in that is that his "boys" are the ones that came up with the idea. Not him. For all we know, he probably heard that it would donate money to the boys and girls club and then he just went with it for that purpose in mind.


How about you don't try and act all noble and say the special is so you can "donate the money to charity" when you used the entire special to promote your damn vitamin water with obvious product placement everywhere you can get.
LeBron is a business man, first and foremost. So it shouldn't shock anyone that he would promote his products on "his" own show. However, to say that tried to act noble in donating to charity is ridiculous. This wasn't the first time he's donated to charity, and it certainly won't be the last. How do you know what his thought process was at the time?


I like Lebron a lot more now that he has calmed down and is a little but more humble, but he couldnt have handled that situation any worse.

When Ben Wallace left Detroit we were upset that he did it, but we welcomed him back with open arms to come here and retire... imagine if Big Ben had a special on TV and the Pistons organization as well as his fan base here had to find out what hes decided at the same time as the rest of the world. So unprofessional, he might as well go on TV and just give us the finger.
Actually, he could've. He could've *****ed and moaned about not having enough help and then proceed to get his coach & GM fired midseason. Or if we stick to the FA aspect of things, he could've trashed the city of Cleveland, trashed the fans, etc. after he left.....Fact is, he didn't. He remained tempered even after seeing the scorned CLE fans burn his jerseys. If anyone handled himself poorly, it was Dan Gilbert who wrote that letter to Cleveland fans taking the tone and persona of the blonde woman in "Fatal Attraction".

Big Zo
10-26-2012, 02:08 PM
I'm not saying Lebron couldn't get help. What I am saying is How you win a ring matters. At least when Shaq left to go to LA he was the primary star right off the bat and didn't have a proven champion on the team. The way Lebron went to Miami will never help him in that Wade was already a proven champion in his prime and won with a franchise that never won prior to him arriving. That is the difference. Now say had Lebron gone to NY or NJ (now Brooklyn) or something like that or Utah to play with guys like Amare or Melo or Deron, etc, it would have been fine. But going to join forces with a guy who was arguably the best player in the league the season prior isn't going to help you.

Anyway, I don't call going to play with a guy who already won a title as the man in Wade "getting help", that is more that you are begging him for help to get you over the hump since he actually proved he can win as the man.


Derrick Rose is sooo humble.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 02:13 PM
But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Redd and Allen both re-up? I know it's called free agency for a reason, but if a player with that much talent is staying put it doesn't really matter what else is out there.
You are correct but thats my point, they were unable to lure big name players from even the smallest of markets. Both Redd and Ray were high priorities and both decided it would be better to stay put than play in Cleveland. Its not like they were on the cusp of competing for a championship either, it was simply about money. Nothing Cleveland could do.


Besides, it was only a matter of time before the Raps groomed another good player that would want out.....*slowly lowers head and kicks at some dirt*
Yea but only after management fails. I found it ironic how people complained about the CBA and how they didn't want stars flocking to big markets, citing Bron leaving Cleveland. But NO ONE ever mentions that the only reason Bron left Cleveland is because OTHER PLAYERS weren't leaving their small market teams. So which is it? Do players ditch small markets to join big ones, or do they ditch small markets because other small markets are holding onto their best players as well?

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 02:15 PM
You dont see how or why people would get excited about the prospects of pairing the best PnR finisher/shooter with a guy like LeBron?
San Antonio was years before the trade rumor popped up but if he had THAT Amare back in 2005 then its pretty interesting. In 2010 Amare was still an All-Star/All-NBA caliber player.
OP and other make it sounds like Amare was THE missing piece, we can't assume that. He didn't get Phoenix over the top and those Suns were more talented. Amare is better than what the Cavs had, but I do not believe they beat the 2010 Celtics with him.

Well Antawn got absolutely destroyed vs KG and if they had gotten him to pair with Shaq they would have had instant chemistry instead of having to watch as Brown hastily try to build a rotation that didn't mix within a few weeks.
Point taken. Brown's shortcomings on offense didn't help, but they did they best they could after the Suns started asking for more.

Not even close, I dont remember if Ferry was in charge during the Boozer fiasco but this is about Clevelands ownership in general, and Ive NEVER seen a team downgrade a first rounder into a 2nd rounder as fast as Cleveland did when they traded for Jiri Welsch, Luke Jackson or some euro guy (I forget which) but they basically used a first rounder to make the trade only to ship him out for a 2nd rounder within a few weeks. Cleveland was a **** location but when you compound that with managerial negligence your practically begging for Bron to leave.

That was my main beef with Cleveland, they tried to build an instant contender around a teen instead of surrounding Bron with prospects he could grow with. They COMPLETELY dropped the ball on Boozer in that regard, the aforementioned forfeiture of a first rounder didn't help either, horrible decisions with the few resources they had.
Ferry was not the Cavs' GM then, nor was Gilbert the owner.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1836318

The huge offer, coming after Boozer drew interest from half a dozen teams once he hit the free-agent market, proves the Cavaliers made a mistake in relinquishing their contractual rights to Boozer for the upcoming season.

"Our actions have been based upon what Carlos told us he wanted," the Cavaliers said in a statement by owner Gordon Gund and general manager Jim Paxson.

The statement said the Cavaliers' approach with Boozer was entirely consistent with his public statements in an interview July 1 with The Associated Press.

"We are both very surprised and very disappointed by what is now being reported," the statement said.

Messages left with Boozer and agent Rob Pelinka were not immediately returned Thursday.

Boozer, recently named to the U.S. Olympic team, could have been Cleveland's next season for $695,000, but the Cavaliers did not pick up their option after, the club said, Boozer had committed to re-signing for the team's full mid-level exception -- somewhere around six years and $40 million.

Now Cleveland almost certainly cannot retain Boozer. While the Cavs have the right to match the Utah offer, they are only about $4 million under the current cap and would have to trade and/or renounce the rights to a number of players to clear enough room to sign Boozer.

I dont see how thats a credit to Ferry when without Bron that team went to ****. They consistently failed to produce when he wasn't on the floor. They were deep but their success all hinged on Bron, **** didn't they go 0-7 the year they went to the Finals and had to watch Bron score damn near all the points in the 4th quarter+OT?

They did have a decent run, injuries kind of derailed them some but overall even if they didn't **** the team over ala Tracy in Orlando or PHX selling every draft pick they ever had but it was still a pretty mediocre job and thats the best I could say.
Ferry walked into a tough situation and a tough market. Some deals worked out and that's why they had success, while some deal did not. Even with a transcendent talent like LeBron, I can't trash one Finals appearance and being the odds on favorites other years in 5 seasons. Besides, even if they did win a title, who's to say LeBron still doesn't leave in 2010 with Riley's sales pitch? That's what I'm saying.

SteBO
10-26-2012, 02:17 PM
I'm not saying Lebron couldn't get help. What I am saying is How you win a ring matters. At least when Shaq left to go to LA he was the primary star right off the bat and didn't have a proven champion on the team. The way Lebron went to Miami will never help him in that Wade was already a proven champion in his prime and won with a franchise that never won prior to him arriving. That is the difference. Now say had Lebron gone to NY or NJ (now Brooklyn) or something like that or Utah to play with guys like Amare or Melo or Deron, etc, it would have been fine. But going to join forces with a guy who was arguably the best player in the league the season prior isn't going to help you.

Anyway, I don't call going to play with a guy who already won a title as the man in Wade "getting help", that is more that you are begging him for help to get you over the hump since he actually proved he can win as the man.
In todays NBA, winning a ring the way LBJ did is light years better than not winning a ring AT ALL. You can blame the media for putting so much unwarranted stock in winning championships to cement your legacy as an all-time great. John Stockton isn't looked at negatively in that regard, neither is Charles Barkely and Karl Malone as far as I know.

And sorry, no way is LBJ looked at any differently in your hypothetical scenario's compared to now. He gets hated on currently because of the simple fact he left. Whether that be to bolt to MIA, CHI, NY, or BKN is irrelevant. Also, Wade at no point was considered the best player in the league the year prior to 2010. He was that unappreciated by the media and other fanbases......

valade16
10-26-2012, 02:18 PM
Fair enough, but you don't see things shaking down differently had Lebron re-upped? Like Bosh wouldn't still have ditched the Raps and maybe gone to Cleveland? I agree that in their state at the time nobody wanted to go there because Lebron was all like "I have no idea what's going to happen in free agency.... I haven't thought about it." The guy is a draw and he has friends jocking him all over the league. There's obviously so way to argue my point, I just think that if he'd waited it out a bit longer and committed then talent would have started flocking.

It's not even about the Re-upping part. It's the entire feel and culture. LeBron was asked about FA like 3-4 years before he actually hit the open market. Had he actually been committed to the Cavaliers I bet it would've played out differently.

Also, considering the shadyness where Bron, Bosh, and Wade possibly planned the Miami thing in advance, who was gonna go to Cleveland if that was true?

And then, once you get past the fact that LeBron essentially distanced himself from the organization years before FA you still get the pivotal FA, where had he decided to stay he very likely could've had Bosh as a No. 2. Mo Williams may not be a good No. 2 option, but he's a good No. 3. Not to mention Antawn Jamison is being touted as a great difference maker addition off the bench for LAL this year, back then he could've been an excellent bench piece on a Championship roster.

Had LeBron stayed and teamed with Bosh, Mo, and Jamison along with Varejo, you're looking at a Championship team most likely.

SteBO
10-26-2012, 02:23 PM
It's not even about the Re-upping part. It's the entire feel and culture. LeBron was asked about FA like 3-4 years before he actually hit the open market. Had he actually been committed to the Cavaliers I bet it would've played out differently.

Also, considering the shadyness where Bron, Bosh, and Wade possibly planned the Miami thing in advance, who was gonna go to Cleveland if that was true?

And then, once you get past the fact that LeBron essentially distanced himself from the organization years before FA you still get the pivotal FA, where had he decided to stay he very likely could've had Bosh as a No. 2. Mo Williams may not be a good No. 2 option, but he's a good No. 3. Not to mention Antawn Jamison is being touted as a great difference maker addition off the bench for LAL this year, back then he could've been an excellent bench piece on a Championship roster.

Had LeBron stayed and teamed with Bosh, Mo, and Jamison along with Varejo, you're looking at a Championship team most likely.
Bosh was not going to Cleveland regardless man. He said so himself, and that was well before even Wade committed to Miami. Not only that, but with the contracts Cleveland was stuck with, there was no way players would turn down money to play in a market like Cleveland.

As Chronz said earlier, even Trevor Ariza prior to the 2010 season turned down big money to play with LeBron.

ManRam
10-26-2012, 02:26 PM
I'm not saying Lebron couldn't get help. What I am saying is How you win a ring matters. At least when Shaq left to go to LA he was the primary star right off the bat and didn't have a proven champion on the team. The way Lebron went to Miami will never help him in that Wade was already a proven champion in his prime and won with a franchise that never won prior to him arriving. That is the difference. Now say had Lebron gone to NY or NJ (now Brooklyn) or something like that or Utah to play with guys like Amare or Melo or Deron, etc, it would have been fine. But going to join forces with a guy who was arguably the best player in the league the season prior isn't going to help you.

Anyway, I don't call going to play with a guy who already won a title as the man in Wade "getting help", that is more that you are begging him for help to get you over the hump since he actually proved he can win as the man.

LeBron has been the best player on the Heat the second he stepped onto the court.


This is all semantics and has literally NOTHING to do with basketball. That's why I think it's hilarious. You diving into how LeBron doesn't live up to your personal beliefs and expectations as to how a player must do things. That's silly...

Your arguments essentially now have nothing to do with the actual game of basketball nor do they have anything to do with ability, talent and individual success.



And again, you have to realize he was in a situation unlike many of the other 10 greatest basketball players ever. Shaq got out the same way, and did so a lot earlier, leaving a FAR more talented team. While Kobe wasn't at the time what Wade is, LA was a FAR more renounced franchise. It was a classic leaving a small town franchise for the bigger and brighter lights. It was far more "selfish", if we wanna talk about stupid stuff like that, than LeBron in regards to the team they went to. Kobe was blessed with Shaq, Pau and now Dwight. The thought about leaving crept into his mind once, because there was never a reason to besides that. He was in a perfect place. Bird had multiple HOFers. Magic and Kareem had multiple HOFers. Russell had multiple HOFers his entire career. Wilt, Ducan, Oscar etc...they all did.

LeBron never had that. He never had what those all time greats did. I don't care HOW you get that, I'm not going to fault him for finally being on the same playing field.

Jordan is the only one that had to be a bit patient. But LeBron was patient too. 7 years is a lot of your career to stay somewhere that isn't working out. MJ got MAJOR help in 87, help that's incomparable to what LeBron ever got.



The criticism is unfounded for two reasons (since I tend to babble).

1. Expecting him to win in Cleveland is expecting him to win with a cast that, as far as I'm aware, was less talented than that of which any other top 10 player of all time ever had to win with.

2. LeBron never had the talent around him that those guys did. He waited 7 years for it to come, and while he certainly COULD have him, he EASILY could have gone somewhere where he'd finally be on EQUAL footing as the rest of the all time gates. Those guys were blessed with it coming to them (sans Shaq really). LeBron wasn't blessed with it, so he went out and got it. So be it.

Sactown
10-26-2012, 02:28 PM
LOL at JB saying MJ did it alone in 91 but LBJ had a HOF in Wade in 2012

Pippen was a better player in the playoffs in 91 than Wade was in 2012

Pippen posted an equivalent PER of 22, a higher EFg% posted a better ORTg and DRTG, posted .2 less WS while playing SIX less games and clearly posted a better WS/48...

Jordan clearly had more help in 91 than LBJ EVER HAD

also in 98 Pippen posted similar numbers to Wade again in the playoffs and was arguably the 3rd best player on the 98 team lol.... JB you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.. A player can't be defined by whether he made the all star team the season before or not, but by how they play during the time debated.. stop being such a blind homer and a moron..

Chronz
10-26-2012, 02:28 PM
OP and other make it sounds like Amare was THE missing piece, we can't assume that. He didn't get Phoenix over the top and those Suns were more talented.
Thats not true, the Suns were a team that would end up missing the playoffs without Amare despite adding more talent in his departure. Whereas Cleveland was a team that could win +62 games without Amare and without a complimentary star behind Bron.


Amare is better than what the Cavs had, but I do not believe they beat the 2010 Celtics with him.
Thats fair but I think they do. Hell I thought they could have beaten them had they just been healthy and/or never traded for Antawn. Adding Antawn at the point in time when Shaq got hurt and then frantically trying to find a workable rotation really threw a monkey wrench in what had been a stable team. I also wish Gilbert had some semblance of statistical comprehension, Ive seen players describe Brown as a stats guy but there is a big difference between guys who use stats and guys who know stats. I think a guy like Dean Oliver/Rosenbaum would have made a world of difference. Im pretty Cleveland had a statistical department and worked with some notable consultants, Im just wondering why they didn't prioritize their advice because clearly they didn't listen.

Sactown
10-26-2012, 02:30 PM
Also I don't believe Dan Gilbert failed Cleveland, he did the best he could and spent as much as he could during the time spent, Cleveland got to caught up in "Winning Now" and paid to much for players who didn't perform. It's just the way it works out sometimes, I also don't blame Lebron from leaving a city that's equal to a waste land.. he seemed to be the only person who wanted to be there, and in the end he decided to leave.. how he did it is always going to be looked down apon, but why he did it shouldn't... that's about it.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 02:31 PM
LOL at JB saying MJ did it alone in 91 but LBJ had a HOF in Wade in 2012

Pippen was a better player in the playoffs in 91 than Wade was in 2012

Pippen posted an equivalent PER of 22, a higher EFg% posted a better ORTg and DRTG, posted .2 less WS while playing SIX less games and clearly posted a better WS/48...

Jordan clearly had more help in 91 than LBJ EVER HAD

also in 98 Pippen posted similar numbers to Wade again in the playoffs and was arguably the 3rd best player on the 98 team lol.... JB you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.. A player can't be defined by whether he made the all star team the season before or not, but by how they play during the time debated.. stop being such a blind homer and a moron..

But Pippen didn't make the All-Star team, so he cant be an All-Star, dont care what the stats say (unless they support my opinion). Take a look at Ben Wallace's PER/WS and then take a look at Dennis Rodmans PER/WS, they are the same players. Now those are stats I trust


#JBLOGIC

ManRam
10-26-2012, 02:34 PM
JB you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.. A player can't be defined by whether he made the all star team the season before or not, but by how they play during the time debated.. stop being such a blind homer and a moron..

In defense of JB, who I'm hard on because I think he's being crazy at times...

He KNOWS what he's talking about, he's just trying to twist things so he can argue HOW he wants to argue. I get the impression he has his opinion made, and thus looks for ways to support that, regardless of how inconsistent or trivial they are. That's as opposed to not having your opinion made and then objectively trying to come to a fair and reasonable conclusion. He's as pro-Jordan and anti-LeBron as it gets, and it has lately really been clouding his judgement...causing him, for example, to use one-line quotes for PROOF of something, when the reality is they have nothing to do with being good at basketball.

JB knows a ton about basketball...but he's letting his emotions (haha) get in the way. Opinions are fine...but not when you refuse to be objective and constantly run into double standards.

Also, #JBLogic might be my new favorite thing ever.

Sactown
10-26-2012, 02:39 PM
But Pippen didn't make the All-Star team, so he cant be an All-Star, dont care what the stats say (unless they support my opinion). Take a look at Ben Wallace's PER/WS and then take a look at Dennis Rodmans PER/WS, they are the same players. Now those are stats I trust


#JBLOGIC

I don't get the whole "All star" argument.... Look how many Yao Ming won lol, or even Tmac for that matter...

b@llhog24
10-26-2012, 02:40 PM
Hes hoping people start respecting his copy and paste technique but a flawed argument loses no matter how often you repeat it. He doesn't mention how Shaq and Ben (The 2 guys he emphasizes most) were both playing injured in the playoffs and totally dismisses context. Hes trying to trick himself into thinkin MJ won a title without an All-Star and compares them to Jason Kidd and Marion in their title year. That exposes his selective analysis, he wont look at stats unless they get his point across instead of being consistent. Basically you've been trolled but not by a troll, by something much more dangerous, a true believer in his trolling.

:laugh2:

Chronz
10-26-2012, 02:40 PM
It's not even about the Re-upping part. It's the entire feel and culture. LeBron was asked about FA like 3-4 years before he actually hit the open market. Had he actually been committed to the Cavaliers I bet it would've played out differently.
LMFAO. 3-4 years? Is LeBron suppose to commit for a decade or something? Plz what he did was no different than what plenty of stars have done. Even when Bron re-upped and wasn't going anywhere for years they still didn't come.


Also, considering the shadyness where Bron, Bosh, and Wade possibly planned the Miami thing in advance, who was gonna go to Cleveland if that was true?
Those theories began because of the 2008 Olympics. Cleveland tried getting stars long before then and had Bron locked up, they still didn't come. And I highly doubt it was true anyways because Riley tried using his cap space the summer before Bron. Why would he do that if he was planning a big3? Even more relevant, how would anyone have known about a secret plan?


And then, once you get past the fact that LeBron essentially distanced himself from the organization years before FA you still get the pivotal FA, where had he decided to stay he very likely could've had Bosh as a No. 2.
How did he distance himself? He always talked about wanting to stay there and finishing his mission. It wasn't until it was clear that Cleveland wouldn't be able to provide him what he needed that he left.


Had LeBron stayed and teamed with Bosh, Mo, and Jamison along with Varejo, you're looking at a Championship team most likely.
Too bad Bosh didnt want to go to Cleveland even with Bron recruiting him as a FA (both were FA so obviously recruiting him means he would have resigned as well).

Not a lot of common sense in your post.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 02:40 PM
LOL at JB saying MJ did it alone in 91 but LBJ had a HOF in Wade in 2012

Pippen was a better player in the playoffs in 91 than Wade was in 2012

Pippen posted an equivalent PER of 22, a higher EFg% posted a better ORTg and DRTG, posted .2 less WS while playing SIX less games and clearly posted a better WS/48...

Jordan clearly had more help in 91 than LBJ EVER HAD

also in 98 Pippen posted similar numbers to Wade again in the playoffs and was arguably the 3rd best player on the 98 team lol.... JB you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.. A player can't be defined by whether he made the all star team the season before or not, but by how they play during the time debated.. stop being such a blind homer and a moron..

PER Season
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
113. Scottie Pippen* 18.63

PER Playoffs
1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.10
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.27
7. Kevin Durant 24.70
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.68
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 24.06
83. Scottie Pippen* 18.35


WS/PER 48 minutes Season
1. Michael Jordan* .2505
22. Dwyane Wade .1955
112. Scottie Pippen* .1462


WS/PER 48 minutes Playoffs
1. Michael Jordan* .2553
21. Dwyane Wade .1823
76. Scottie Pippen* .1396

Pippen's PER during the Bulls years they won 22.0, 20.1, 16.9, 19.4, 18.1, 19.5 in the playoffs and 20.6, 21.5, 19.2, 21.0, 21.3, 20.4 in the Regular Season

Dwyane Wade's PER was 22.0 in the playoffs and 26.3 in the Regular Season

So Wade is a role player when he averaged 23/6/5/1/1 in the finals and 23/5/4 in the playoffs as a whole and had a 22 PER while in the season he had a 26.3 PER.

Damn what role player puts up a 26.3 PER for a season? Some of you guys are unbelievable with the **** you come up with. And as a note each year the Bulls won the title Pippen's PER was lower than what Wade was in the playoffs and definitely lower in the season.

Lebron has much more talent on his team than MJ ever had and more proven talent at that. No one on the Bulls was more proven than MJ when the Bulls first won titles. Lebron already has Wade who won as the man. So no matter how you slice it, Wade already got it done as the man and it will be seen that Lebron needed someone who could win as the man to win it all.
In Cleveland he even had proven winners on his team in Ben Wallace (led team to title) and Shaq (3x finals mvp and 1x league mvp).
Jordan never played with anyone that won league or finals mvp. Not only that but Wade, Lebron and Bosh were #1, #2 and #4 in PER the season before they joined forces together.

ManRam
10-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Hes hoping people start respecting his copy and paste technique but a flawed argument loses no matter how often you repeat it. He doesn't mention how Shaq and Ben (The 2 guys he emphasizes most) were both playing injured in the playoffs and totally dismisses context. Hes trying to trick himself into thinkin MJ won a title without an All-Star and compares them to Jason Kidd and Marion in their title year. That exposes his selective analysis, he wont look at stats unless they get his point across instead of being consistent. Basically you've been trolled but not by a troll, by something much more dangerous, a true believer in his trolling.

Also, this is the GOAT post.

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 02:47 PM
What I am saying is How you win a ring matters.
To some fans, but not all fans: Yes.
To some players, but not all players: Yes.

But we live in a capitalist society and the NBA is a business. As Frank Lopez said in the movie Scarface: "Never underestimate the other guy's greed."

Some people want to do it "the right way" and all that, whereas others would pretty much give and do almost anything to reach the top just once. Great players have gotten coaches fired and teammates traded. It's all about power and money, like everything else in the world. One thing I've learned from watching sports for all these years though is to never assume anything, about a team or player. Everyone reaches that point in life where they started thinking about their own legacy -- athletes are no different, which means those old principles about doing it the right way and staying loyal will go out the window.

Sactown
10-26-2012, 02:50 PM
PER Season
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
113. Scottie Pippen* 18.63

PER Playoffs
1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.10
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.27
7. Kevin Durant 24.70
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.68
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 24.06
83. Scottie Pippen* 18.35


WS/PER 48 minutes Season
1. Michael Jordan* .2505
22. Dwyane Wade .1955
112. Scottie Pippen* .1462


WS/PER 48 minutes Playoffs
1. Michael Jordan* .2553
21. Dwyane Wade .1823
76. Scottie Pippen* .1396

Pippen's PER during the Bulls years they won 22.0, 20.1, 16.9, 19.4, 18.1, 19.5 in the playoffs and 20.6, 21.5, 19.2, 21.0, 21.3, 20.4 in the Regular Season

Dwyane Wade's PER was 22.0 in the playoffs and 26.3 in the Regular Season

So Wade is a role player when he averaged 23/6/5/1/1 in the finals and 23/5/4 in the playoffs as a whole and had a 22 PER while in the season he had a 26.3 PER.

Damn what role player puts up a 26.3 PER for a season? Some of you guys are unbelievable with the **** you come up with. And as a note each year the Bulls won the title Pippen's PER was lower than what Wade was in the playoffs and definitely lower in the season.

Lebron has much more talent on his team than MJ ever had and more proven talent at that. No one on the Bulls was more proven than MJ when the Bulls first won titles. Lebron already has Wade who won as the man. So no matter how you slice it, Wade already got it done as the man and it will be seen that Lebron needed someone who could win as the man to win it all.
In Cleveland he even had proven winners on his team in Ben Wallace (led team to title) and Shaq (3x finals mvp and 1x league mvp).
Jordan never played with anyone that won league or finals mvp. Not only that but Wade, Lebron and Bosh were #1, #2 and #4 in PER the season before they joined forces together.
Your regular season numbers mean nothing when you get into the playoffs JB and I don't care to hear about how all star from 2 seasons ago is relevant in the playoffs two years later.. Look at other numbers other than Per, when Pippen posted a similar per to Wade, he did everything better in all other catagories and was much more efficient... So if Shaq played today he'd still be considered more help than Bosh because he won a MVP 10 years ago?? your previous accolades mean nothing when it comes into the playoffs... the Chicago Bulls had 6 players post a per greater than 13 in 1991 the Miami Heat had 4 and the and the 2009-2010 Cavs also had 4, but the second highest was 16 with Shaq, but he played so few minutes it didn't matter, and after that it was Jamison with 14.5... and I don't care if Jamison won 600 MVPS and went to 50 ALL STAR GAMES, he still sucked in 2010 and it left James with just himself, if you could look into numbers instead of MVP counts that are 10 years out of date you'd realize that the help James had that year was practically a high school team...


Also CAREER NUMBERS MEAN NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO AN INDIVIDUAL YEAR.. PIPPEN WENT THROUGH HIS BAD YEARS AND WADE HAS YET TO GO THROUGH HIS DECLINE.. YOUR NUMBERS ARE WRONG.... AND MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO THE GIVEN ARGUMENT..

Bravo95
10-26-2012, 03:00 PM
Thats not true, the Suns were a team that would end up missing the playoffs without Amare despite adding more talent in his departure. Whereas Cleveland was a team that could win +62 games without Amare and without a complimentary star behind Bron.
Yeah Phoenix needed him but I meant past the Celtics/Lakers/Spurs specfically when I say over the top. I just never believed those Suns teams could get it done, similar to how I never believed the Kings would dethrone the Shaq-Kobe Lakers. I kinda view Amare and Webber the same way: Talented but missing "it" to get a team across the finish line.

Thats fair but I think they do. Hell I thought they could have beaten them had they just been healthy and/or never traded for Antawn. Adding Antawn at the point in time when Shaq got hurt and then frantically trying to find a workable rotation really threw a monkey wrench in what had been a stable team. I also wish Gilbert had some semblance of statistical comprehension, Ive seen players describe Brown as a stats guy but there is a big difference between guys who use stats and guys who know stats. I think a guy like Dean Oliver/Rosenbaum would have made a world of difference. Im pretty Cleveland had a statistical department and worked with some notable consultants, Im just wondering why they didn't prioritize their advice because clearly they didn't listen.
Won't disagree with you here.

Da Knicks
10-26-2012, 03:11 PM
Yes Dan Gilbert failed bigtime in Cleveland, first off if he really let Lebron be the one dictating what players where to be brought in that is just wrong. Second not signing Boozer back was a big mistake and one that they paid for a while. Lebron with a decent sidekick would of being impossible to stop, his quickness, speed and strenghth with a second star who could shoot from the outside could of being deadly. Lbj was the best player in the league for like the past 5-6 years because of his superior genetics. If he doesnt win more rings in the future because of his quickness, speed fading Dan Gilbert will get more blame and rightfully so. He wasted this kids best traits for all those seasons without getting him the right help...

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 03:14 PM
I don't get the whole "All star" argument.... Look how many Yao Ming won lol, or even Tmac for that matter...

3 guys on the Heat made The all-star team 2 years in a row and this year was the only ones with that many on one team. Not to mention 2 of the top 5 players in the league were out for the playoffs including the top seed. And he was also down 3-2 in a series with HCA all while playing with a proven champion as the man in his prime.

valade16
10-26-2012, 03:18 PM
How did he distance himself? He always talked about wanting to stay there and finishing his mission. It wasn't until it was clear that Cleveland wouldn't be able to provide him what he needed that he left.
Not a lot of common sense in your post.

Dwight Howard said publically he wanted to stay in Orlando for a long time too, should we comend him on his honesty as well? :rolleyes:

Besides, you are essentially saying you take LeBron at his word, the very same word he broke that has led to this thread.

I can see you're the arbitor of common sense...


The truth can start to get twisted over time, but I remember very clearly years and years before he actually hit FA there was rampant speculation he would leave and the feeling amongst everyone was that he wasn't tied to Cleveland at all.

It is very hard to put much weight on a deck of cards. I'm not saying had LeBron shown more commitment then the Cavs absolutely would've had a better team or would've won a title.

I am saying that LeBron does deserve part of the blame for the entire situation in Cleveland.

I know you believe LeBron to be infallible, it's obvious in your post history (and the fact that you manage to pop up and defend LeBron in any thread that puts him down even a little), but I implore you to actually look at the situation from outside the LeBron can do no wrong filter, and tell me if you honestly think LeBron wasn't partly to blame, or did nothing to bring about the situation he found himself in...

TheIlladelph16
10-26-2012, 03:23 PM
3 guys on the Heat made The all-star team 2 years in a row and this year was the only ones with that many on one team. Not to mention 2 of the top 5 players in the league were out for the playoffs including the top seed. And he was also down 3-2 in a series with HCA all while playing with a proven champion as the man in his prime.

I've seen you regurgitate this line over and over in regards to the playoffs this past year. 2006 Dwade =/= 2012 Dwade, just like Cavs Shaq =/= Lakers/Heat Shaq and Pistons Ben Wallace =/= Cavs Ben Wallace. Wtf does somebody accomplishing something years prior have anything to do with their current skill, athleticism, efficiency, etc.? Very very little. You are also the only person I've seen who continually harps the HCA argument because it fits your Jordan arguments.


Also not entirely sure how you mention injuries to other players but fail to acknowledge that Bosh was playing hurt and missed significant time and Wade disappeared consistently throughout the playoffs this year.

ManRam
10-26-2012, 03:23 PM
I have no problem, personally, with anyone putting blame for what happened in Cleveland on LeBron. He's a part of it. He did also do a ton of good there...


But if you use the fact that he left a team to go to a better team to knock his standing as an all-time player, well, that's something I can't twist my head around. He's on an even playing field now as most of the all-time greats...and it doesn't matter to me how he got there. He didn't get "lucky" in terms of where he landed. Can't fault him for that...

heyman321
10-26-2012, 03:44 PM
Well I think this proves that they don't hire mods based on their brains.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 03:56 PM
Dwight Howard said publically he wanted to stay in Orlando for a long time too, should we comend him on his honesty as well? :rolleyes:

Besides, you are essentially saying you take LeBron at his word, the very same word he broke that has led to this thread.

I can see you're the arbitor of common sense...
LOL you said he distanced himself from the organization when in reality he was saying all the right things and resigning with the team. Whether or not he meant them isn't the discussion, its about YOUR PROOF. A player who says all the right things isn't distancing himself from an organization, particularly when he resigns and tries to recruit players. So of course I take Brons word over your unsubstantiated opinion, you dont know what was going on in his mind, people are allowed to change their minds, you do know that right? Common sense indeed.



The truth can start to get twisted over time, but I remember very clearly years and years before he actually hit FA there was rampant speculation he would leave and the feeling amongst everyone was that he wasn't tied to Cleveland at all.
People speculated he might leave the first time his free agency came up, instead he resigned and nobody came. Sorry but I dont buy your opinion that everyone felt he was leaving. Again, what were you expecting him to do, sign a 10 year deal? He was committed to Cleveland for years and nobody showed up, why should he stay longer and hope for a 180 change? Thats basically what your asking of him, and thats why you have no argument.




I am saying that LeBron does deserve part of the blame for the entire situation in Cleveland.

Based on what tho? Bron did what was logical. He committed to Cleveland for a long time, he reupped after his rookie deal and FA still didn't come. If your holding it against Bron for only committing for 7 years then you should rethink your claims of bias. Bron didn't do anything that any other star wouldn't have done.



I know you believe LeBron to be infallible, it's obvious in your post history (and the fact that you manage to pop up and defend LeBron in any thread that puts him down even a little), but I implore you to actually look at the situation from outside the LeBron can do no wrong filter, and tell me if you honestly think LeBron wasn't partly to blame, or did nothing to bring about the situation he found himself in...
Nice try but you still have to explain your opinion, trying to label me as an apologist without any reasoning only exposes your own argument as fallible. Again, Bron was committed, if people are talking about what he might do in 3-4 years then thats not his problem, **** you have people talking about him going to LA even now, that doesn't stop players from going to Miami does it? Thats why it says more about Cleveland than it says about Bron.

In Cleveland if Bron isnt gauranteed to stay there for 10 years (considering 4-7 years of stability isnt enough this is a safe estimate based on your complaints), no one will come.

But in Miami you have Ray Allen (the same Ray Allen that wouldn't go to Cleveland) signing in Miami for less money despite Bron only being on the books for a few years. Ahh the powers of a bigger market, shame Bron didn't land in 1 from the start. He wouldn't even need to commit as long as he did with Cleveland to get some support.

Sactown
10-26-2012, 04:04 PM
3 guys on the Heat made The all-star team 2 years in a row and this year was the only ones with that many on one team. Not to mention 2 of the top 5 players in the league were out for the playoffs including the top seed. And he was also down 3-2 in a series with HCA all while playing with a proven champion as the man in his prime.

WHO CARES ABOUT ALL STAR APPEARANCES!! IT'S FAN VOTED! IT DOESN'T MATTER... BEING IN THE ALL STAR GAME DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE A LEGITIMATE ALL STAR JB!!!!

WILT CHAMBERLAIN IS A "PROVEN CHAMPION" BUT PUTTING HIM ON THE HEAT ISN'T GOING TO ACTUAL GIVE THEM A LEGIT CENTER!! HE'S TO OLD! god damn... Wade is over 30 and isn't about to drop 30 a series anymore.. he's not the same player, he isn't as explosive, there's a good case to be made that in fact a PRIME Scottie Pippen has a legitimate case to be made that he in FACT is better than Wade of the last 2 years REGARDLESS of Wades past.. you keep thinking that being a "ONCE APON A TIME" All Star Caliber player makes you produce at the same level WELL into your 30's! BUT INFACT JB Players do decline, as OBVIOUSLY SHAQ was well into his DECLINE when he played for CLEVELAND and so was BEN WALLACE!! OBVIOUSLY! BIG Z wasn't 25 when he was playing with a prime Lebron, more like 45... If you could please stop bringing up what OLD MEN did in their TWILIGHT YEARS and came down to EARTH so we could have a LEGITIMATE CONVERSATION I'd appreciate it GREATLY!! I've decided to capitalize all the IMPORTANT WORDS as a hope that you won't MISS THEM and repost the same CRAP you keep posting about a 500 YEAR OLD SHAQ BEING AN ALL STAR... thank you JB, but the fact is LEBRON PLAYED WITH a bunch of players PAST THEIR PRIME, and MICHEAL JORDAN had far SUPERIOR HELP compares to LEBRON JAMES!

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 04:09 PM
WHO CARES ABOUT ALL STAR APPEARANCES!! IT'S FAN VOTED! IT DOESN'T MATTER... BEING IN THE ALL STAR GAME DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE A LEGITIMATE ALL STAR JB!!!!

WILT CHAMBERLAIN IS A "PROVEN CHAMPION" BUT PUTTING HIM ON THE HEAT ISN'T GOING TO ACTUAL GIVE THEM A LEGIT CENTER!! HE'S TO OLD! god damn... Wade is over 30 and isn't about to drop 30 a series anymore.. he's not the same player, he isn't as explosive, there's a good case to be made that in fact a PRIME Scottie Pippen has a legitimate case to be made that he in FACT is better than Wade of the last 2 years REGARDLESS of Wades past.. you keep thinking that being a "ONCE APON A TIME" All Star Caliber player makes you produce at the same level WELL into your 30's! BUT INFACT JB Players do decline, as OBVIOUSLY SHAQ was well into his DECLINE when he played for CLEVELAND and so was BEN WALLACE!! OBVIOUSLY! BIG Z was 25 when he was playing with a prime Lebron, more like 45... If you could please stop bring up what OLD MEN did in their TWILIGHT YEARS and came down to EARTH so we could have a LEGITIMATE CONVERSATION I'd appreciate it GREATLY!! I've decided to capitalize all the IMPORTANT WORDS as a hope that you won't MISS THEM and repost the same CRAP you keep posting about a 500 YEAR OLD SHAQ BEING AN ALL STAR... thank you JB, but the fact is LEBRON PLAYED WITH a bunch of players PAST THEIR PRIME, and MICHEAL JORDAN had far SUPERIOR HELP compares to LEBRON JAMES!

I love the old excuse here. Because it gets mentioned that MJ had Rodman who was 35-37 years old but then when it mentions that Ben Wallace was 33 he gets mentioned as old. Also Shaq was 37 years old and was the allstar game mvp the season before and showed up in the most pivotal game of the series when Lebron gave up.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005110CLE.html

Jordan never had more help than Lebron.

Wade
26.5 PPG / 7.0 RPG / 5.2 APG / 1.5 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 2.5 TPG / 54.6% FG / 30.4% 3 PT FG / 69.4% FT


Bosh
18.5 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.33 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 2.17 TPG / 41.3% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.8% FT


Lebron
17.8 PPG / 7.2 RPG / 6.8 APG / 1.67 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 4.0 TPG / 47.8% FG / 32.1% 3 PT FG / 60.0% FT


funny thing tho is that if you compare lebron's finals games to pippen's finals games it's like they're pretty much the same players:
pippen = 19 pts / 8 reb / 6 ast on 43% shooting
lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

Lebron had guys who averaged more than him in series, he has a guy who is a better performer than him on the highest stage. And both Bosh and Wade are in there primes and make the allstar team regularly and were #2, #4 in PER before joining forces with Lebron and still lost with HCA to an inferior team.

Wade - 30.2 PPG, 52.3% FG, 7.2 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3 TO, 2 SPG

Lebron - 28 PPG, 46.7% FG, 8.2 RPG, 3.6 APG, 3.4 TO, 1.8 SPG

Not to mention in the finals Durant averaged 30.6 ppg on 55% while Lebron averaged 28.6 ppg on 47%.
That is just Miami.


It is always an excuse for Lebron. He had the best record both years. Don't give me he doesn't have a number 2. Dirk is a guy who doesn't have a number 2, but how often does he get excuses made for him?

The fact of the matter is Lebron pretty much got Jamison for free as Big Z came back to the team and then he added Shaq (1x league mvp and 3 finals mvp's) without giving up anything really.
Jamison a career 20 and 8 player and was getting that this season on the Wizards. Shaq last year a 17 and 7 player and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before playing with Lebron.

No excuses, the Cavs were heavily favorite both years.

Maybe Lebron should stop being ball dominant and trying to get his points and numbers early on in the game against bad teams and get others going.

I said from the beginning, that Lebron needed to play like he did in game 1 of the Bulls vs Cavs series for the Cavs to succeed. Once he started dominating the ball, the Cavs were done.

Lebron lost with HCA. MJ never lost with HCA.

IMO there are only a few times where the STAR PLAYER get the critism.

1.) Losing a Series with HCA.
2.) Playing bad and someone else on your team plays better
3.) Losing in the finals.


Every other superstar player that was on a good team ended up losing with HCA as well and to teams much inferior at that. That's the whole point of it. If you have HCA you should win the series.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z (PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


http://a.espncdn.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.



Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)



Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.

It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.



For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)



1. Cleveland (+9.12)
Welcome to the Cleveland Invitational, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, the Pistons had given up and the Hawks had injuries, but the fact is the Cavs have won eight straight playoff games by double figures. In this case it's a continuation of the Cavs' strong finish to the season, and it doesn't appear either Boston or Orlando has the goods to make them sweat much in a conference finals.

Cleveland also has home-court advantage going for it in the final two rounds, so at this point the Cavs have to be considered a heavy favorite to win the championship. They're playing the best basketball, have the best draw, have home-court and have the best player. They still have to play the games, of course, but the skids have already been greased. While the likes of Denver or L.A. could give them a tough fight in the Finals, at this point it appears that the only team that can beat Cleveland is Cleveland.


Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )



1. Cleveland Cavaliers, 2008-09

I sort of like this also-ran, because it speaks to how we've grown as a sport-regarding culture over the years. These Cleveland Cavaliers ran up 66-wins, an almost-Bulls-like 8.9-point differential (way better than any team listed above), and had the greatest player in the game (LeBron James(notes)) at their disposal. And yet, when the team lost to the Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference finals last spring, people seemed ready to smartly admit that the Cavs, for all their horses, just didn't have the horses to run with the Magic.

Nobody was labeled a choker, nobody was fired, and though the team traded for one big (hopeful) problem-solver in the offseason in Shaquille O'Neal, nobody seemed to overreact and make deals for the sake of making deals. Knowing that the team will have the best player in the game, at only age 24, around for at least the next season helps too; but you have to love the lack of hand-wringing. Still, the meek ending doesn't hide the fact that this was an otherwise dominant team that won 74 of its first 90 games before falling to the Magic in six.



While Lebron had another allstar on the team. This with Orlando missing it's star PG as well.



Lebron just lost with HCA and the superior supporting cast. He averaged 15.67 FTA a game in that series where he shot 94 FT in 6 games.

Bulls not only in 1991 but 1998 was the finest example won the title and this with Pippen missing over half the season on a bad foot and Bulls win 62 games. Pippen also has a bad back as well in the finals.


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit last year for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

This year the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.



So Lebron had another allstar on the team, another 3 former allstars, a 4x DPOY player, a team top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency, the team with the highest SRS rating all year long as well as the team who had the highest point differential all year long and then won it's first two series by more than 10+ points per game, but yet they weren't the favorite to beat Orlando who was missing it's star PG and whose SG was playing injured?

Hilarious!!!


Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


So when I said it was on Lebron I meant in the sense that not that he played bad but that he was the leader of the team and Your leader shouldn't allow you to blow 20+ point leads in the playoffs at home especially when you go 39-2 at home all year. That is more or less why I said it was on Lebron.


Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series,

however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.



Lebron had plenty of help on his team this year. He had another allstar in Mo Williams. He had a top 4 defensive rating and offensive rated team. The team had the highest SRS rating which means the strength by which you beat your opponents by. They had the highest point differential in the season and in the playoffs.

That team was the best team in the league that got upset by an inferior opponent.

So tell me who was the favorite to win the series between Orlando and Cleveland?



Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams. He had over a 44.5 PER thru the first two rounds mainly because the other teams starters were just terrible. Case in point, Tayshaun Prince had a negative win shares amount and had a negative PER. PER is set at 15 for the average starter and for someone who starts to get a negative PER goes to show how bad they were. Thus Lebron was able to do what he does best and that is stat pad his numbers. That is why it hurt them later on.

And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.


Good stats don't mean jack when you lose series with HCA and you are the heavy favorite to win the series. Just like MJ would have gotten the blame in 1988 had we lost to Cleveland because we had the HCA and the game went to the deciding game and this despite him averaging over vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 pts/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG
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I'll give you an example. The Bulls were 0-6 against the Cavs in 1989. Cavs were title contenders and we were barely making the playoffs. MJ proceeds to average over 40 ppg in that series and we win the series in 5 on the road on a game winner by MJ. Even the year before where we had HCA, MJ averaged over 45 ppg in that series and we went the distance and won game 5 at home.

Now you look at MJ's history and you see that whenever he had a team that won more games than the other or even that won the same number of games, he ALWAYS won the series. Essentially speaking MJ never lost a series with HCA.

Oh and you say Mo didn't show up, he still averaged 18 ppg. Hell let's look at what other guys did on some titles the Bulls won. MJ's next best player averages 15 ppg on 34% fg in the finals in 1996 and we win. He averages 16 ppg on 41% in the 1998 finals.
How is that any worse than what Mo did?

Oh and the Cavs were up by 15+ in every home game, how the hell can you blame the cast for that? If you are getting 20+ point leads at home your damn cast gotta be good especially if you have had that lead in each home game in the series.
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The Cavs were not bad period.

1) They nearly beat the Sixers the last game of the season with the Sixers playing all of there best players the entire game and the Cavs were doing this with 3 starters out and 2 others playing less than 20 minutes.

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Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


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One other thing about Playoff Win Shares and PER. Dirk had a higher PER and Win Shares in 2006 in the postseason than Wade, but would you say he was better when Wade won without HCA and beat Dirk in the finals?

Only thing that really matters is the finals. Playoffs come 2nd.


Hell Jerry West averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals in 1969 and he and Wilt get the blame for losing to the Celtics because the were heavy favorites in that series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm#


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Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead?

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The problem was that Cleveland didn't take Orlando seriously. It took Orlando 7 games to beat a KG less Boston team and Cleveland had won it's first 8 games by 10+ points each. Thus they overlooked Orlando and figured it was going to be easy especially with Jameer not playing as well.
Lebron very well may have had to average over 40 ppg in that series to win it, but he didn't. It is just like in 1969 Jerry West, Wilt and Baylor all get the blame for losing to the Celtics because they were the favorite and had the HCA despite West averaging nearly 39 ppg in that series.
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Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis

Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.
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This year Cleveland was the favorite from the get go and even more so mid way thru the year. Cleveland won 66 games and Orlando won 59 games. Cleveland had the HCA and was the heavy favorites to win the east with Garnett out. Now had the Celtics been healthy that is one thing, but Orlando hadn't proved anything in any other postseason. So dont tell me they were supposed to win this series.

Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.

It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.

I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.
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Last year's collapse in the Eastern Conference finals only made LeBron hungrier and more willing to expand his game. Now, opponents can expect to see him in the post more. Scary. And look for a resurgence from a truly motivated Shaq.




The Cavs were the best team in the East before collapsing against the Magic, and they've gotten even stronger in the offseason. Shaq and Anthony Parker should help shore up their bench. Still, they lack the athletic bigs to match up with the Magic in a seven-game series.


---------------------------------------
Except we are comparing them to Orlando who they were supposed to beat.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z
(PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


http://a.espncdn.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.



The fact of the matter is the teams he lost to they were supposed to beat. Whether they were supposed to win a title it is another issue, but they should not have lost to Orlando nor Boston, two inferior teams overall and who had inferior records and inferior SRS ratings as well.

Orlando was missing it's PG for the series and Boston had not one player that made an all nba team that season.


Now had the Cavs lost to the Celtics with KG around or the Lakers those would be legit losses but losing to a team that was out in the previous season in round 1 and when you had HCA and the hands down favorite while they were missing there PG in Nelson as well doesn't bode well here.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 04:16 PM
Also not entirely sure how you mention injuries to other players but fail to acknowledge that Bosh was playing hurt and missed significant time and Wade disappeared consistently throughout the playoffs this year.
Thats probably whats most appalling. Ive seen him recite injuries to the Bulls opponents the year they played without MJ, but when it comes to Bron. Bosh and Wade were always healthy. To this day he thinks Karl Malone was healthy for the Finals in 04.:facepalm:

Chronz
10-26-2012, 04:17 PM
WILT CHAMBERLAIN IS A "PROVEN CHAMPION" BUT PUTTING HIM ON THE HEAT ISN'T GOING TO ACTUAL GIVE THEM A LEGIT CENTER!! HE'S TO OLD!

Hes also dead

RIP

C_Mund
10-26-2012, 04:18 PM
It's not even about the Re-upping part. It's the entire feel and culture. LeBron was asked about FA like 3-4 years before he actually hit the open market. Had he actually been committed to the Cavaliers I bet it would've played out differently.

Also, considering the shadyness where Bron, Bosh, and Wade possibly planned the Miami thing in advance, who was gonna go to Cleveland if that was true?

And then, once you get past the fact that LeBron essentially distanced himself from the organization years before FA you still get the pivotal FA, where had he decided to stay he very likely could've had Bosh as a No. 2. Mo Williams may not be a good No. 2 option, but he's a good No. 3. Not to mention Antawn Jamison is being touted as a great difference maker addition off the bench for LAL this year, back then he could've been an excellent bench piece on a Championship roster.

Had LeBron stayed and teamed with Bosh, Mo, and Jamison along with Varejo, you're looking at a Championship team most likely.

That's what I was thinking. Not many chips would have to fall into place in order for that team to win, Lebron didn't need a team full of stars, he just needed another go-to guy. One big FA/trade would have made it happen, then old players (Like Allen, Rasard Lewis, half the Knicks.....) start signing small-scale contracts to fill out the bench.

Sactown
10-26-2012, 04:19 PM
Thats probably whats most appalling. Ive seen him recite injuries to the Bulls opponents the year they played without MJ, but when it comes to Bron. Bosh and Wade were always healthy. To this day he thinks Karl Malone was healthy for the Finals in 04.:facepalm:

Please for the love of GOD make him understand lol...

Sactown
10-26-2012, 04:20 PM
Hes also dead

RIP

I bet JB still thinks he can still perform...

Chronz
10-26-2012, 04:26 PM
If what you guys were saying were realistic then Bosh would have gone to Cleveland when he and Bron were FA. Ray Allen/Michael Redd wouldn't have stayed with their small markets (despite not contending) and would have signed with Cleveland knowing that Bron would be there for years. Instead Impact FA continuously refrained from going there, hell you had Joakim Noah mocking the city of Cleveland saying there isnt much to do. They had to overpay to get someone like LARRY HUGHES people.

Expecting Bron to sign a life time contract or a prime run contract is absurd, not only would it have been illogical for a player to completely disregard his legacy but there is ZERO EVIDENCE that it would have made a difference. Im sure it would have helped getting a few role players to come to Cleveland but we are talking about getting him some real support arent we?

That wasn't happening in Cleveland, if Bron takes any blame for that then its inconsequential because he did more than most do for their floundering franchise given what they were doing for him.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 04:27 PM
I bet JB still thinks he can still perform...

But hes a proven corpse.......


But you never lose the proven ability to win

ManRam
10-26-2012, 04:29 PM
Oh. My. God.

That JB post.

#JBLogic

Rinse, wash, copy and paste, and repeat.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 04:31 PM
Thats probably whats most appalling. Ive seen him recite injuries to the Bulls opponents the year they played without MJ, but when it comes to Bron. Bosh and Wade were always healthy. To this day he thinks Karl Malone was healthy for the Finals in 04.:facepalm:

Sam Cassell wasn't healthy either. Also Malone was healthy in the game the Lakers lost HCA and played 4 of the 5 games.
He also averaged 20 and 8 the season before joining forces. So he clearly was not washed up as some believe.

SteBO
10-26-2012, 04:31 PM
That's what I was thinking. Not many chips would have to fall into place in order for that team to win, Lebron didn't need a team full of stars, he just needed another go-to guy. One big FA/trade would have made it happen, then old players (Like Allen, Rasard Lewis, half the Knicks.....) start signing small-scale contracts to fill out the bench.
True, but that wasn't happening in Cleveland. That's the point.

Sactown
10-26-2012, 04:32 PM
But hes a proven corpse.......


But you never lose the proven ability to win

Exactly I bet AI can still be a #1 option :D

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 04:32 PM
I've seen you regurgitate this line over and over in regards to the playoffs this past year. 2006 Dwade =/= 2012 Dwade, just like Cavs Shaq =/= Lakers/Heat Shaq and Pistons Ben Wallace =/= Cavs Ben Wallace. Wtf does somebody accomplishing something years prior have anything to do with their current skill, athleticism, efficiency, etc.? Very very little. You are also the only person I've seen who continually harps the HCA argument because it fits your Jordan arguments.


Also not entirely sure how you mention injuries to other players but fail to acknowledge that Bosh was playing hurt and missed significant time and Wade disappeared consistently throughout the playoffs this year.

The Celtics had more injuries than the Heat had. There starting SG didn't even play and Ray Allen was banged up as was Pierce.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 04:34 PM
Exactly I bet AI can still be a #1 option :D
I never said Shaq or Ben wallace was the number 1 option the Cavs. I said they were proven champions and knew what it took to get the job done and win and they brought that to the Cavs.

SteBO
10-26-2012, 04:36 PM
The Celtics had more injuries than the Heat had. There starting SG didn't even play and Ray Allen was banged up as was Pierce.
:confused:

Chris Bosh: Out for almost 3/4 of the ECF
Dwyane Wade: Serious knee problems
Mike Miller: Need I say more?

I really do hope you aren't trying to compare the impact of Bradley's absence to Chris Bosh's.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 04:41 PM
:confused:

Chris Bosh: Out for almost 3/4 of the ECF
Dwyane Wade: Serious knee problems
Mike Miller: Need I say more?

I really do hope you aren't trying to compare the impact of Bradley's absence to Chris Bosh's.

3/4 how so? He was there games 5-7. By then the series was tied 2-2. In game 5 when the Heat had the HCA back Bosh returned and the Heat lost. Pierce was playing on a MCL tear and Ray Allen was injured as well. So I wasn't just using Bradley, I was mentioning other guys as well.
And please using Mike Miller as if he was some guy that was a difference maker.:laugh2:

mngopher35
10-26-2012, 04:48 PM
Im not sure id say he failed clevland really, unless like 20ish plus gms each year fail their team as well. They just couldnt bring in talent to surround james with and had a few too many mistakes along the way. The effort was there but the plan or execution was flawed. I dont blame Lebron at all for wanting to leave, in a sense gilbert failed him the most by not giving him any support at all (although that could be Lebrons fault too depending on how decisions were made). In the end both Lebron and Gilbert looked bad, and if one person had to take blame I guess i lean toward gilbert since lebron played amazing with no real help for that team.

2-ONE-5
10-26-2012, 04:53 PM
they have a new building block in Irving but the blew it with that pick on Waiters. I guess in 2-3 years if Waiters and Thompson workout then I wouldnt say he failed them

C_Mund
10-26-2012, 04:57 PM
If what you guys were saying were realistic then Bosh would have gone to Cleveland when he and Bron were FA. Ray Allen/Michael Redd wouldn't have stayed with their small markets (despite not contending) and would have signed with Cleveland knowing that Bron would be there for years. Instead Impact FA continuously refrained from going there, hell you had Joakim Noah mocking the city of Cleveland saying there isnt much to do. They had to overpay to get someone like LARRY HUGHES people.

Expecting Bron to sign a life time contract or a prime run contract is absurd, not only would it have been illogical for a player to completely disregard his legacy but there is ZERO EVIDENCE that it would have made a difference. Im sure it would have helped getting a few role players to come to Cleveland but we are talking about getting him some real support arent we?

That wasn't happening in Cleveland, if Bron takes any blame for that then its inconsequential because he did more than most do for their floundering franchise given what they were doing for him.


Dude, seriously. I've said in like two posts already that I can't disagree. There's no evidence to support what I think maybe mighta coulda have happened. I also stated that I really liked Lebron in Cleveland so I'd hoped that he'd win there. I know 7 years is a long time and he did some incredible things, he didn't owe them anything. However I was stating the possibility that in the biggest free agent year pretty much ever, that had Lebron signed an extension on the first day at midnight, MAYBE, ONE of those OTHER STARS that were WAITING to see what LEBRON would do before they made their decision MIGHT have opted to go to Cleveland. If Lebron had one of JJ, Amare, Bosh, Wade, or whatever on the Cavs, they probably would have won a championship. Besides, if that's how it shook down and a Heat fan today was like "I bet all three were about to sign in Miami" everybody else on this forum would call him an idiot. Crazier things have happened than a player signing in Cleveland.

valade16
10-26-2012, 04:58 PM
LOL you said he distanced himself from the organization when in reality he was saying all the right things and resigning with the team. Whether or not he meant them isn't the discussion, its about YOUR PROOF. A player who says all the right things isn't distancing himself from an organization, particularly when he resigns and tries to recruit players. So of course I take Brons word over your unsubstantiated opinion, you dont know what was going on in his mind, people are allowed to change their minds, you do know that right? Common sense indeed.

Based on what tho? Bron did what was logical. He committed to Cleveland for a long time, he reupped after his rookie deal and FA still didn't come. If your holding it against Bron for only committing for 7 years then you should rethink your claims of bias. Bron didn't do anything that any other star wouldn't have done.

Nice try but you still have to explain your opinion, trying to label me as an apologist without any reasoning only exposes your own argument as fallible. Again, Bron was committed, if people are talking about what he might do in 3-4 years then thats not his problem, **** you have people talking about him going to LA even now, that doesn't stop players from going to Miami does it? Thats why it says more about Cleveland than it says about Bron.

In Cleveland if Bron isnt gauranteed to stay there for 10 years (considering 4-7 years of stability isnt enough this is a safe estimate based on your complaints), no one will come.

But in Miami you have Ray Allen (the same Ray Allen that wouldn't go to Cleveland) signing in Miami for less money despite Bron only being on the books for a few years. Ahh the powers of a bigger market, shame Bron didn't land in 1 from the start. He wouldn't even need to commit as long as he did with Cleveland to get some support.

Here's from an SI.com article July 7th, 2010:

"He should have committed to Cleveland a year ago. He would have avoided the backlash that has already come his way, and he might have played that Game 5 of the Eastern Conference semifinals against Boston this spring with a clear mind and taken his team to the Finals."

From an Urban Daily article May 14, 2010:

"So does this mean the end of LeBron James’ tenure in Cleveland? His body language at the end of the game seemed to say so. Despite shaking hands with damn near everyone in the arena afterward, he couldn’t get out of that Cavs jersey fast enough."

From a Dime Magazine article July 8th, 2010:

"A few minutes ago, I got off the phone with a source that has intricate knowledge of LeBron James‘ business ventures who has told us that while LeBron’s mind is not made up as to where he is going, there is one city where he knows he is not playing next season. As stated over the phone: “LeBron James is 100 percent not staying in Cleveland.”

Here's an article headline as well:

http://www.secondshares.com/2010/11/24/lebron-james-was-never-going-to-stay-in-cleveland-so-his-%E2%80%9Cwhat-should-i-do%E2%80%9D-nike-commercial-was-ripe-for-parody/

Saying that LeBron was 100% behind the Cavaliers or that he was totally committed or that you were actually shocked that he left is either a case of 1. being clueless or 2. Revisionist history.

There was absolutely no sense that LeBron was actually 100% committed to Cleveland, at all. He was the consumate "one foot out the door" guy.

Here is a telling article about him re-affirming his loyalty to the Heat, but pay attention to the exact wording of his comments:

"http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lebron-james-reaffirms-loyalty-miami-heat-fan-reaction-214500540--nba.html"

"I'm here, and this is what it's all about," James said about the ESPN report. "I'm preparing for this season, preparing to defend our title and that's it. This is where ... I'm here now. … That story, I don't know where it came from, but I understand why it came up because of who I am -- it's going to happen."

Notice how he never once mentions that he plans to be with the Heat in the future. The reason there is so much speculation on where he will go is because he is either stupidly or deliberately refusing to show loyalty to the team he's on. Heck, he didn't just leave the door open for rumors he will leave, he practically invited the rumors in for dinner.

HiphopRelated
10-26-2012, 05:07 PM
3/4 how so? He was there games 5-7. By then the series was tied 2-2. In game 5 when the Heat had the HCA back Bosh returned and the Heat lost. Pierce was playing on a MCL tear and Ray Allen was injured as well. So I wasn't just using Bradley, I was mentioning other guys as well.
And please using Mike Miller as if he was some guy that was a difference maker.:laugh2:
with both healthy, Miami beat them in 5 the year before, then this year, Bosh came back, KG's production went off a cliff and they lost the final 2 games by double digits.

No comparison about which was/is the better team healthy and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHupOIiOm4U

kduce
10-26-2012, 05:08 PM
:confused: Did LBJ tell them to do it? If you have a link stating this as a fact, then please do, but as far as I know that was the Cavs' decision. Not 'Bron's.


Truthfully, I can't give you a link because It was one of those things that was talked about on sports radio or on ESPN, but your right I don't have proof of it. It just looks bad when you take this into account along with everything else, but that's kind of an unfair assumption and I can admit that. Truthfully I assumed this was a known fact and I stand corrected if it is not.



The television show was tasteless. He shouldn't have done it. No disagreement there, though what gets lost in that is that his "boys" are the ones that came up with the idea. Not him. For all we know, he probably heard that it would donate money to the boys and girls club and then he just went with it for that purpose in mind.


I would imagine that Lebron didn't come up with all of this himself, but he is an adult and makes his own decisions... at the end of the day its up to him to decide whats right for him. It may have been a poor choice of judgment, like you said, but he probobly should have known better then to go on live TV and rubbing it in Cleveland's face even if that wasn't his intention.



LeBron is a business man, first and foremost. So it shouldn't shock anyone that he would promote his products on "his" own show. However, to say that tried to act noble in donating to charity is ridiculous. This wasn't the first time he's donated to charity, and it certainly won't be the last. How do you know what his thought process was at the time?

My argument with this is how it was presented in the press releases. I know its PR but it was so arrogant, IMO, to tell everyone that he is going to have an hour long show and all proceeds would go to charity like he was doing it for the kids or something lol. It felt, to me, that Lebron's camp were trying to tell the world that he was doing this for a good cause and this was more about the charity then it was about him, but then the product placement was everywhere and the show seemed self centered and arrogant. If it wasn't about Lebron then why not just donate the money after? Why tell the whole world that your going to do it. It felt like "look at me look at me I'm generous and a great man." A lot of these feelings have died down since then, but that's how I took it when it was happening and it just made me sick.



Actually, he could've. He could've *****ed and moaned about not having enough help and then proceed to get his coach & GM fired midseason. Or if we stick to the FA aspect of things, he could've trashed the city of Cleveland, trashed the fans, etc. after he left.....Fact is, he didn't. He remained tempered even after seeing the scorned CLE fans burn his jerseys. If anyone handled himself poorly, it was Dan Gilbert who wrote that letter to Cleveland fans taking the tone and persona of the blonde woman in "Fatal Attraction".

I can't argue with you on this point. He could have been a hell of a lot worse, I agree and to be honest I hadn't really thought about it too much until you brought it up. I don't give him credit for staying tempered though, because he deserved what he got in some ways. I'll agree some people took it too far, but to Cleveland has been **** on in sports over and over again and being a home town kid who grew up in that environment, he should have known "The Decision" was a god awful one.

I know Dan Gilbert did get a little extreme, but I understand why he did it. He was trying to stand up for the fans who felt betrayed and abused. He maybe took it to an extreme and could have mellowed out some, but with their hero Lebron leaving the city needed someone else to fill that void. Dan Gilbert was the best they had at the time lol.

JordansBulls
10-26-2012, 05:20 PM
with both healthy, Miami beat them in 5 the year before, then this year, Bosh came back, KG's production went off a cliff and they lost the final 2 games by double digits.

No comparison about which was/is the better team healthy and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHupOIiOm4U
That was due to Rondo's arm being nearly taken off by Wade in that game 4 where IIRC he had to leave the game and the next game was playing on one arm. That was the game that went into OT because of that. Rondo's injury changes things. Say it is 2-2 then Miami may not make that comeback in game 5 that Wade led in the end.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 05:20 PM
However I was stating the possibility that in the biggest free agent year pretty much ever, that had Lebron signed an extension on the first day at midnight, MAYBE, ONE of those OTHER STARS that were WAITING to see what LEBRON would do before they made their decision MIGHT have opted to go to Cleveland. If Lebron had one of JJ, Amare, Bosh, Wade, or whatever on the Cavs, they probably would have won a championship.

Your not understanding me, Bron tried to recruit Bosh to Cleveland. Obviously if hes recruiting Bosh it means hes resigning with Cleveland as both were free agents.

Why would Bron try to sell Bosh on playing in Cleveland only to ditch him?

mngopher35
10-26-2012, 05:25 PM
Are you seriously comparing the help jordan had to what Lebron has had throughout his career? The only time Lebron has failed with good support was last year. This year wade was injured and not himself, while bosh was injured and missed a chunk of time. The help Lebron had this year is definitely comparable to the help jordan had during his career, maybe a little better or worse depending how you look at it.

Starters outside of Lebron Cleveland 2007 finals vs Spurs
Hughes
Pavlovic
Gooden
Big Z

Starters for Chicago minus MJ first run:
Pippen
Grant
Paxson
Cartwright

I mean that isnt even comparable in anyway is it? Just look at the players and you can immediatly tell which one you want. Lebron's support until Miami was similar to the support jordan had his first 6 years or so, and they had the same result of 0 rings. Lets see what Lebron does these next few years and then we can judge how good he was when playing with an actual supporting cast. If your arguing all of this to prove Jordan is better than Lebron then just stop, everyone knows Jordan was better and there is a very very small chance of Lebron changing that. It just makes you look biased when your bringing up pointless things such as ben wallace and shaq as support when everyone knows they were done.

Chronz
10-26-2012, 05:32 PM
Here's from an SI.com article July 7th, 2010:
Thats not 3-4 years before becoming a free agent is it?



Saying that LeBron was 100% behind the Cavaliers or that he was totally committed or that you were actually shocked that he left is either a case of 1. being clueless or 2. Revisionist history.
Neither, its a factual comment that Bron was committed to Cleveland for 7 years. I never denied he was going to test free agency and make the best decision when the time came, what Im protesting was your opinion that it was a long term thing that hindered him. Essentially blaming him for not signing a 10 year deal. If your just saying he lost out on free agents the year or 2 leading up to his free agency then I wont deny that. The only free agent they could have gotten those years were Trevor Ariza anyways and he said he wouldn't come not knowing what was going to happen with Bron.

However the discussion is about his ENTIRE TENURE with Cleveland and in the years when everyone knew Bron was going to be around for a long time, the stars still stayed away from Cleveland, even the hometown one. They dont do that if Bron is in Miami.



There was absolutely no sense that LeBron was actually 100% committed to Cleveland, at all. He was the consumate "one foot out the door" guy.
So then why did he resign? Again Im talking about his career with Cleveland, not his final year.


Here is a telling article about him re-affirming his loyalty to the Heat, but pay attention to the exact wording of his comments:

"http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lebron-james-reaffirms-loyalty-miami-heat-fan-reaction-214500540--nba.html"

"I'm here, and this is what it's all about," James said about the ESPN report. "I'm preparing for this season, preparing to defend our title and that's it. This is where ... I'm here now. … That story, I don't know where it came from, but I understand why it came up because of who I am -- it's going to happen."

Notice how he never once mentions that he plans to be with the Heat in the future. The reason there is so much speculation on where he will go is because he is either stupidly or deliberately refusing to show loyalty to the team he's on. Heck, he didn't just leave the door open for rumors he will leave, he practically invited the rumors in for dinner.
This just proves my argument. Notice how players are still going to Miami despite this, notice how Ray Allen refused to sign in Cleveland despite KNOWING that Bron would be there and notice him taking less money to play in Miami despite you thinking Bron isn't committed to Miami. Thats difference.

And of course there is speculation, Bron doesn't know what will happen in a few years so he leaves his options open. Its what players do, why should Bron forego his rights as a free agent when no one else does? I mean a guy like Kobe tested free agency despite being on a contending team in LA, but for a guy like Bron its his fault? That says more about his team than it does him.

SteBO
10-26-2012, 09:36 PM
:confused:

Chris Bosh: Out for almost 3/4 of the ECF
Dwyane Wade: Serious knee problems
Mike Miller: Need I say more?

I really do hope you aren't trying to compare the impact of Bradley's absence to Chris Bosh's.

3/4 how so? He was there games 5-7. By then the series was tied 2-2. In game 5 when the Heat had the HCA back Bosh returned and the Heat lost. Pierce was playing on a MCL tear and Ray Allen was injured as well. So I wasn't just using Bradley, I was mentioning other guys as well.
And please using Mike Miller as if he was some guy that was a difference maker.:laugh2:
Whether or not you think he is is irrelevant. Both teams had their share of injuries. Fact.

TheIlladelph16
10-27-2012, 07:59 PM
The Celtics had more injuries than the Heat had. There starting SG didn't even play and Ray Allen was banged up as was Pierce.

Agree to disagree here cause I know its a no win with you. Personally, the injury to Bosh and Wade's knees and inconsistency because of it, farrrrrr outweigh the impact of a second year SG (albeit great defender) and a guy who is really only a 3 pt threat at this point in his career. I am not saying the Celtics did not have injuries because they obviously did, but it wasn't anywhere near what the Heat had to deal with.

Lake_Show2416
10-27-2012, 08:06 PM
Of course he did, didnt get Lebron any help so he left, got the #1 pick handed to him & has been surrounding him with lower rated prospects that he reached for, all he knows how to do is write emails to Stern like Cuban & make outrageous claims like winning a title before Lebron

He's a delusional egotistical joke of a person that won't ever win or keep his franchise players

sunsfan88
10-27-2012, 08:18 PM
He gave Lebron every decision in every free agent or trade they pursued. Even so much so they got a 4x DPOY who won a title as the only allstar on the team and also a guy who won 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and was the allstar game mvp winner the season before joining forces in Cleveland.

And it's funny you say noone of the level of Rodman or Pippen, but yet Shaq was better than both. Rodman was 37 on the Bulls, Shaq 38 on the Cavs and the allstar game mvp the year before while Rodman hadn't made an allstar game in 4 years and never with the Bulls.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg

And Ben Wallace was clearly the man on the Pistons. He finished 7th in MVP voting that year when no one else was even on the list. Not to mention was the only allstar on the team. The team had been the #1 seed the year prior as well before Rasheed even got there.
And I love how people dismiss Shaq as if he was a scrub. He not only outscored Lebron in the pivotal game 5 when the Cavs got blown out, but he was also the allstar game mvp the season before joining Lebron and put up 18 ppg and 8 rpg that season. Not to mention a 3x finals mvp winner and 1x league mvp winner. Fact is, is that Lebron those years had guys who were proven winners already.

He got 2 WASHED UP players in Shaq and Wallace.

Only reason Shaq did good the year before is because our training staff did amazing work on him and Nash did some magic to make Shaq look decent.

Arch Stanton
10-28-2012, 03:32 AM
Buddy, that was in the news. its not that somebody suggested it on this site and ran with it. yea its from sources, but its just as credible if not more solid than assuming he wanted to go play with his friends the whole time.

There was a lot more into it then you seem to think. It wasn't a straight Amare for JJ swap. In the end the Cavs gave up nothing for Jamison.

Arch Stanton
10-28-2012, 03:36 AM
I have no doubt Gilbert TRIED to make his team a good team around LeBron. He simply is a very poor GM. I don't blame LeBron for leaving at all. He played with mediocre players at best his entire time in Cleveland. Good defenders, good defensive coach, terrible offensive players, terrible offensive coach. I had no doubt in my mind that he was leaving, until he announced the decision, which surprised me, because I thought he was staying in Cleveland if he was going through a big production. Turns out he leaves anyways. I for one, don't blame him.

Although outspoken, Gilbert isn't nor wasn't the GM. That role was filled by Danny Ferry.

iFYouSeekAmy
10-28-2012, 04:10 AM
I love the old excuse here. Because it gets mentioned that MJ had Rodman who was 35-37 years old but then when it mentions that Ben Wallace was 33 he gets mentioned as old. Also Shaq was 37 years old and was the allstar game mvp the season before and showed up in the most pivotal game of the series when Lebron gave up.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005110CLE.html

Jordan never had more help than Lebron.

Wade
26.5 PPG / 7.0 RPG / 5.2 APG / 1.5 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 2.5 TPG / 54.6% FG / 30.4% 3 PT FG / 69.4% FT


Bosh
18.5 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.33 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 2.17 TPG / 41.3% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.8% FT


Lebron
17.8 PPG / 7.2 RPG / 6.8 APG / 1.67 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 4.0 TPG / 47.8% FG / 32.1% 3 PT FG / 60.0% FT


funny thing tho is that if you compare lebron's finals games to pippen's finals games it's like they're pretty much the same players:
pippen = 19 pts / 8 reb / 6 ast on 43% shooting
lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

Lebron had guys who averaged more than him in series, he has a guy who is a better performer than him on the highest stage. And both Bosh and Wade are in there primes and make the allstar team regularly and were #2, #4 in PER before joining forces with Lebron and still lost with HCA to an inferior team.

Wade - 30.2 PPG, 52.3% FG, 7.2 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3 TO, 2 SPG

Lebron - 28 PPG, 46.7% FG, 8.2 RPG, 3.6 APG, 3.4 TO, 1.8 SPG

Not to mention in the finals Durant averaged 30.6 ppg on 55% while Lebron averaged 28.6 ppg on 47%.
That is just Miami.


It is always an excuse for Lebron. He had the best record both years. Don't give me he doesn't have a number 2. Dirk is a guy who doesn't have a number 2, but how often does he get excuses made for him?

The fact of the matter is Lebron pretty much got Jamison for free as Big Z came back to the team and then he added Shaq (1x league mvp and 3 finals mvp's) without giving up anything really.
Jamison a career 20 and 8 player and was getting that this season on the Wizards. Shaq last year a 17 and 7 player and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before playing with Lebron.

No excuses, the Cavs were heavily favorite both years.

Maybe Lebron should stop being ball dominant and trying to get his points and numbers early on in the game against bad teams and get others going.

I said from the beginning, that Lebron needed to play like he did in game 1 of the Bulls vs Cavs series for the Cavs to succeed. Once he started dominating the ball, the Cavs were done.

Lebron lost with HCA. MJ never lost with HCA.

IMO there are only a few times where the STAR PLAYER get the critism.

1.) Losing a Series with HCA.
2.) Playing bad and someone else on your team plays better
3.) Losing in the finals.


Every other superstar player that was on a good team ended up losing with HCA as well and to teams much inferior at that. That's the whole point of it. If you have HCA you should win the series.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)




For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)



Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )




While Lebron had another allstar on the team. This with Orlando missing it's star PG as well.



Lebron just lost with HCA and the superior supporting cast. He averaged 15.67 FTA a game in that series where he shot 94 FT in 6 games.

Bulls not only in 1991 but 1998 was the finest example won the title and this with Pippen missing over half the season on a bad foot and Bulls win 62 games. Pippen also has a bad back as well in the finals.


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit last year for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

This year the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.



So Lebron had another allstar on the team, another 3 former allstars, a 4x DPOY player, a team top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency, the team with the highest SRS rating all year long as well as the team who had the highest point differential all year long and then won it's first two series by more than 10+ points per game, but yet they weren't the favorite to beat Orlando who was missing it's star PG and whose SG was playing injured?

Hilarious!!!


Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


So when I said it was on Lebron I meant in the sense that not that he played bad but that he was the leader of the team and Your leader shouldn't allow you to blow 20+ point leads in the playoffs at home especially when you go 39-2 at home all year. That is more or less why I said it was on Lebron.


Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series,

however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.



Lebron had plenty of help on his team this year. He had another allstar in Mo Williams. He had a top 4 defensive rating and offensive rated team. The team had the highest SRS rating which means the strength by which you beat your opponents by. They had the highest point differential in the season and in the playoffs.

That team was the best team in the league that got upset by an inferior opponent.

So tell me who was the favorite to win the series between Orlando and Cleveland?



Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams. He had over a 44.5 PER thru the first two rounds mainly because the other teams starters were just terrible. Case in point, Tayshaun Prince had a negative win shares amount and had a negative PER. PER is set at 15 for the average starter and for someone who starts to get a negative PER goes to show how bad they were. Thus Lebron was able to do what he does best and that is stat pad his numbers. That is why it hurt them later on.

And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.


Good stats don't mean jack when you lose series with HCA and you are the heavy favorite to win the series. Just like MJ would have gotten the blame in 1988 had we lost to Cleveland because we had the HCA and the game went to the deciding game and this despite him averaging over vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 pts/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll give you an example. The Bulls were 0-6 against the Cavs in 1989. Cavs were title contenders and we were barely making the playoffs. MJ proceeds to average over 40 ppg in that series and we win the series in 5 on the road on a game winner by MJ. Even the year before where we had HCA, MJ averaged over 45 ppg in that series and we went the distance and won game 5 at home.

Now you look at MJ's history and you see that whenever he had a team that won more games than the other or even that won the same number of games, he ALWAYS won the series. Essentially speaking MJ never lost a series with HCA.

Oh and you say Mo didn't show up, he still averaged 18 ppg. Hell let's look at what other guys did on some titles the Bulls won. MJ's next best player averages 15 ppg on 34% fg in the finals in 1996 and we win. He averages 16 ppg on 41% in the 1998 finals.
How is that any worse than what Mo did?

Oh and the Cavs were up by 15+ in every home game, how the hell can you blame the cast for that? If you are getting 20+ point leads at home your damn cast gotta be good especially if you have had that lead in each home game in the series.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cavs were not bad period.

1) They nearly beat the Sixers the last game of the season with the Sixers playing all of there best players the entire game and the Cavs were doing this with 3 starters out and 2 others playing less than 20 minutes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
One other thing about Playoff Win Shares and PER. Dirk had a higher PER and Win Shares in 2006 in the postseason than Wade, but would you say he was better when Wade won without HCA and beat Dirk in the finals?

Only thing that really matters is the finals. Playoffs come 2nd.


Hell Jerry West averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals in 1969 and he and Wilt get the blame for losing to the Celtics because the were heavy favorites in that series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm#


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Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead?

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The problem was that Cleveland didn't take Orlando seriously. It took Orlando 7 games to beat a KG less Boston team and Cleveland had won it's first 8 games by 10+ points each. Thus they overlooked Orlando and figured it was going to be easy especially with Jameer not playing as well.
Lebron very well may have had to average over 40 ppg in that series to win it, but he didn't. It is just like in 1969 Jerry West, Wilt and Baylor all get the blame for losing to the Celtics because they were the favorite and had the HCA despite West averaging nearly 39 ppg in that series.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis

Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.
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This year Cleveland was the favorite from the get go and even more so mid way thru the year. Cleveland won 66 games and Orlando won 59 games. Cleveland had the HCA and was the heavy favorites to win the east with Garnett out. Now had the Celtics been healthy that is one thing, but Orlando hadn't proved anything in any other postseason. So dont tell me they were supposed to win this series.

Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.

It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.

I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.
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Except we are comparing them to Orlando who they were supposed to beat.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749




The fact of the matter is the teams he lost to they were supposed to beat. Whether they were supposed to win a title it is another issue, but they should not have lost to Orlando nor Boston, two inferior teams overall and who had inferior records and inferior SRS ratings as well.

Orlando was missing it's PG for the series and Boston had not one player that made an all nba team that season.


Now had the Cavs lost to the Celtics with KG around or the Lakers those would be legit losses but losing to a team that was out in the previous season in round 1 and when you had HCA and the hands down favorite while they were missing there PG in Nelson as well doesn't bode well here.

:laugh2:

I was seriously anticipating this. I lost it when he mentioned HCA and included pics and links. Sometimes I wonder how many of these he stores in his Word Doc.

#JBLogic