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View Full Version : Could Zito be comeback player of the year?



OpenAvalin
10-25-2012, 12:40 AM
I know Buster already won it... But focusing on it right now, could Zito also have been a choice?

metswon69
10-25-2012, 12:44 AM
The official Major league baseball CPOTY were announced last week.

It was Fernando Rodney from the AL, and Buster Posey from the NL.

lincecum=future
10-25-2012, 12:44 AM
No because his team mate Posey already won it

metswon69
10-25-2012, 12:47 AM
Tricky Tricky ninja edit :D

I still think it's Posey after everything he went through with the broken leg to go out there and be the MVP in the NL is pretty impressive (especially hitting like that playing 114 games from the catchers spot)

sacgiants1213
10-25-2012, 12:50 AM
Posey will give his award to Zito.

raidersrock99
10-25-2012, 01:43 AM
"I know posey already won it"

Jeffy25
10-25-2012, 01:54 AM
Considering he really wasn't that good this year, no.

He got the winz, but that's really it. He wasn't even a league average starter this year.

raidersrock99
10-25-2012, 02:48 AM
^thank you Jeffy!!!! Nobody realizes he still sucked thus year he was just able to pitch a few gems which was good

Rush
10-25-2012, 03:50 AM
Last two posts, agreed.

ESaady
10-25-2012, 04:04 AM
Playoff Zito, besides Cincy, sure.

Pinstripe pride
10-25-2012, 08:44 AM
he wasnt good this year, he's just been good his last couple of starts

Greedy22
10-25-2012, 10:49 AM
He should win the Cy Young, 15 winz!

Obviously no, he put up the same type of season he put up in 2010 which got him left off the postseason roster, he was fortunate Lincecum was rather awful this year and luckily for the giants and giants fans it worked out perfectly so far.

OpenAvalin
10-25-2012, 10:58 AM
I'm so sick of people saying wins aren't valuable. They are, and people get me mad when they say wins mean nothing. They do.
That means that THEY are responsible for your teams win. What do I care if my pitcher only gives up, but we still lose 1-0. I'd rather my pitcher get the win by a score of 10-9 than a loss of the score 2-1
Would you rather your pitcher be 25-5 with a 3.90 ERA or someone who is 5-25 with a 1.90 era

TooMutch14
10-25-2012, 10:58 AM
Pretty happy Zito's been really good his last few starts, but yeah he sucked in the regular season so no way

Fly
10-25-2012, 11:00 AM
I'm so sick of people saying wins aren't valuable. They are, and people get me mad when they say wins mean nothing. They do.
That means that THEY are responsible for your teams win. What do I care if my pitcher only gives up, but we still lose 1-0. I'd rather my pitcher get the win by a score of 10-9 than a loss of the score 2-1
Would you rather your pitcher be 25-5 with a 3.90 ERA or someone who is 5-25 with a 1.90 era

The pitcher with the 1.90 ERA is obviously the better pitcher.. So yeah, I'll take the obvious better pitcher..

OpenAvalin
10-25-2012, 11:01 AM
The pitcher with the 1.90 ERA is obviously the better pitcher.. So yeah, I'll take the obvious better pitcher..

For your team? You would give up 20 wins just for a lower era?

metswon69
10-25-2012, 11:01 AM
I'm so sick of people saying wins aren't valuable. They are, and people get me mad when they say wins mean nothing. They do.
Would you rather your pitcher be 25-5 with a 3.90 ERA or someone who is 5-25 with a 1.90 era

It's not making the argument of whether the wins are important to the team, its the argument of whether wins distinguish who the better pitcher is.

Yeah a team wants a 25 game winner but thats a reflection of the team's performance around him when he wins that many games with a near 4 ERA.

A guy who pitches to a 1.90 ERA over that type of season should have more wins and that isn't as reflective of him as it is how bad a team he plays on.

The better pitcher is the pitcher with 1.90 ERA.

Greedy22
10-25-2012, 11:04 AM
I'm so sick of people saying wins aren't valuable. They are, and people get me mad when they say wins mean nothing. They do.
That means that THEY are responsible for your teams win. What do I care if my pitcher only gives up, but we still lose 1-0. I'd rather my pitcher get the win by a score of 10-9 than a loss of the score 2-1Would you rather your pitcher be 25-5 with a 3.90 ERA or someone who is 5-25 with a 1.90 era

That shows your ignorance right there, so you'd prefer your pitcher get absolutely shelled and be bailed out by your offense rather then pitch a gem and lose due to something being out of his control?

Greedy22
10-25-2012, 11:06 AM
For your team? You would give up 20 wins just for a lower era?

With that ERA? Absolutely, you can't fault the pitcher for going out and being pedro martinez dominant only to lose because the offense fails to put runs on the bored.

metswon69
10-25-2012, 11:07 AM
With that ERA? Absolutely, you can't fault the pitcher for going out and being pedro martinez dominant only to lose because the offense fails to put runs on the bored.

This..

OpenAvalin
10-25-2012, 11:08 AM
That shows your ignorance right there, so you'd prefer your pitcher get absolutely shelled and be bailed out by your offense rather then pitch a gem and lose due to something being out of his control?

Yeahup. I bet you anything the pitcher would be much more happy that he got a win from the offense bailing him out, rather than a devastating 2-1 loss and being pissed at the rest of his team for not doing **** to help him

metswon69
10-25-2012, 11:09 AM
Not winning isn't an indictment of the pitcher with a 1.90 ERA.

He gets the short end of the stick while obviously being the better pitcher.

Greedy22
10-25-2012, 11:12 AM
Yeahup. I bet you anything the pitcher would be much more happy that he got a win from the offense bailing him out, rather than a devastating 2-1 loss and being pissed at the rest of his team for not doing **** to help him

I'm sure he'd be happy with the team win, but embarrassed about giving up 9 runs. Losing 2-1 would be frustrating, but losing 2-1 shows you were in a pitchers duel and just have to tip your cap to the other guy.

Fly
10-25-2012, 11:13 AM
Yeahup. I bet you anything the pitcher would be much more happy that he got a win from the offense bailing him out, rather than a devastating 2-1 loss and being pissed at the rest of his team for not doing **** to help him

Please, just stop..

Obviously 25 wins is better than 5 wins for a pitcher, no one's saying that it isn't. What people are saying is that wins are a piss poor stat to judge a pitcher by, and the people who say that are right. A pitcher has absolutely no control over their offense, and if they are going out there with an ERA under 2 ever start then it's not their fault their offense is incapable as ****.

You honestly don't believe that Phil Hughes was better than Felix Hernandez in 2010, do you? Wins would have you believe he was, though. The example you gave of the 25-5 vs. 5-25 pitchers fits in perfectly with those two pitchers. Hughes had a great record, but only because he pitched for the Yankees who had the best offense in the league that year.

OpenAvalin
10-25-2012, 11:16 AM
Please, just stop..

Obviously 25 wins is better than 5 wins for a pitcher, no one's saying that it isn't. What people are saying is that wins are a piss poor stat to judge a pitcher by, and the people who say that are right. A pitcher has absolutely no control over their offense, and if they are going out there with an ERA under 2 ever start then it's not their fault their offense is incapable as ****.

You honestly don't believe that Phil Hughes was better than Felix Hernandez in 2010, do you? Wins would have you believe he was, though. The example you gave of the 25-5 vs. 5-25 pitchers fits in perfectly with those two pitchers. Hughes had a great record, but only because he pitched for the Yankees who had the best offense in the league that year.

Of course Felix was better than Hughes. No doubt. I know ERA is better stat to judge than wins, but when people say wins mean nothing is just wrong.

metswon69
10-25-2012, 11:19 AM
Of course Felix was better than Hughes. No doubt. I know ERA is better stat to judge than wins, but when people say wins mean nothing is just wrong.

Again they aren't saying wins aren't important to the team that pitcher is playing for.

It's just not a good way to judge a pitcher's effectiveness or how good he was.

Look at all those late 1990s Ranger's teams where they have guys with 4+ Eras win 18-19 games because the teams were offensive juggernauts and in the playoffs every year.

That happens more often than you think.

Greedy22
10-25-2012, 11:20 AM
well here is an example

Pitcher A: 176.1 IP, 4.19 ERA, 146 SO, 58 BB, SO/BB ratio 2.52, 1.428 WHIP
Pitcher B: 217.0 IP, 2.74 ERA, 220 SO, 86 BB, SO/BB ratio 2.56, 1.207 WHIP

Couldn't get on fangraphs to get their FIP/xFIP, but surely you can see pitcher B is far superior right? Well pitcher A went 18-8 while pitcher B went 13-14. Give me pitcher B everyday

Greedy22
10-25-2012, 11:21 AM
Please, just stop..

Obviously 25 wins is better than 5 wins for a pitcher, no one's saying that it isn't. What people are saying is that wins are a piss poor stat to judge a pitcher by, and the people who say that are right. A pitcher has absolutely no control over their offense, and if they are going out there with an ERA under 2 ever start then it's not their fault their offense is incapable as ****.

You honestly don't believe that Phil Hughes was better than Felix Hernandez in 2010, do you? Wins would have you believe he was, though. The example you gave of the 25-5 vs. 5-25 pitchers fits in perfectly with those two pitchers. Hughes had a great record, but only because he pitched for the Yankees who had the best offense in the league that year.


I just used phil hughes of 2010 and tim lincecum of 2011 as my example haha.

raidersrock99
10-25-2012, 01:14 PM
For your team? You would give up 20 wins just for a lower era?

No I'd take the 20 wins but not give the pitcher any credit because we have a good offense! If a guy has a better era whip etc he's a better pitcher than someone e with a 20 win season and a 4.75 era it's really simple.

Rush
10-25-2012, 02:21 PM
I'm so sick of people saying wins aren't valuable. They are, and people get me mad when they say wins mean nothing. They do.
That means that THEY are responsible for your teams win. What do I care if my pitcher only gives up, but we still lose 1-0. I'd rather my pitcher get the win by a score of 10-9 than a loss of the score 2-1
Would you rather your pitcher be 25-5 with a 3.90 ERA or someone who is 5-25 with a 1.90 era

Give me the pitcher who has a 5-25 record with a 1.90 ERA. It's pretty simple because he's the better pitcher. A pitcher's record really doesn't tell you how good a pitcher is.

Jeffy25
10-25-2012, 04:37 PM
I'm so sick of people saying wins aren't valuable. They are, and people get me mad when they say wins mean nothing. They do.
That means that THEY are responsible for your teams win. What do I care if my pitcher only gives up, but we still lose 1-0. I'd rather my pitcher get the win by a score of 10-9 than a loss of the score 2-1
Would you rather your pitcher be 25-5 with a 3.90 ERA or someone who is 5-25 with a 1.90 era

Wins are the easiest thing to disprove.


You pitch 6 innings, allow 1 earned run and get a loss

Or you can pitch 6 innings, allow 7 runs, and get a win

Or you can pitch 6 innings, allow 3 runs, and get a no decision


All of these things happen. Wins are completely worthless because they are out of the pitchers control, 100%.

They mean nothing for the pitcher, at all. And there are so many examples of them being meaningless.


The latter pitcher in your example is better than the first pitcher, so what's the point? I want the better pitcher.


This is an in-game thing that is easy to disprove. It happens all the time. Individual pitchers are aware how unimportant wins are because it's out of their control most of the time.

Lance Lynn got 18 wins this season because of his run support, while Josh Johnson had the worst run support in baseball. Lance Lynn was not superior to Josh Johnson this season.

Jeffy25
10-25-2012, 04:40 PM
Comparing Zito to Lee this year is sort of comical really. A perfect example of why wins don't tell you a thing about a pitcher

sep11ie
10-25-2012, 04:50 PM
Yea, there is a chance they will do a revote.

rocket
10-25-2012, 04:56 PM
I'm so sick of people saying wins aren't valuable. They are, and people get me mad when they say wins mean nothing. They do.
That means that THEY are responsible for your teams win. What do I care if my pitcher only gives up, but we still lose 1-0. I'd rather my pitcher get the win by a score of 10-9 than a loss of the score 2-1
Would you rather your pitcher be 25-5 with a 3.90 ERA or someone who is 5-25 with a 1.90 era

:laugh2:

ATL#22
10-25-2012, 04:58 PM
For your team? You would give up 20 wins just for a lower era?

You asked which pitcher we wanted and we want the pitcher with the sub 2 era. If we can pick the team I want the team that gave that other pitcher 25 wins

Greedy22
10-26-2012, 12:37 AM
AAAAAAAAND he's permabanned.

Rush
10-26-2012, 12:42 AM
:laugh:

scottythegreat1
10-26-2012, 09:34 PM
Zito is just starting to warm up because 2013 is the final guaranteed year of his contract, he wants his 22 million option in 2014.....even if the buyout is 7 million, he is still playing for his option year/contract extension.

lol, please
10-26-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm so sick of people saying wins aren't valuable. They are, and people get me mad when they say wins mean nothing. They do.
That means that THEY are responsible for your teams win. What do I care if my pitcher only gives up, but we still lose 1-0. I'd rather my pitcher get the win by a score of 10-9 than a loss of the score 2-1
Would you rather your pitcher be 25-5 with a 3.90 ERA or someone who is 5-25 with a 1.90 era

Well now that depends. If we are talking about which just pitched in the last season on my team, I would say the one with more wins. If we are talking about which I would pick up, it would be the one with more losses and a lower ERA... but, ERA only is a terrible way to gauge a pitcher. Borderline irresponsible.

Greedy22
10-26-2012, 10:52 PM
Well now that depends. If we are talking about which just pitched in the last season on my team, I would say the one with more wins. If we are talking about which I would pick up, it would be the one with more losses and a lower ERA... but, ERA only is a terrible way to gauge a pitcher. Borderline irresponsible.

You know he's permabanned, right?

lol, please
10-26-2012, 10:52 PM
You know he's permabanned, right?

But he can still read here as a guest. :laugh2:

Greedy22
10-26-2012, 10:53 PM
But he can still read here as a guest. :laugh2:

:laugh2:

Very true.