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j-bay
10-20-2012, 11:51 PM
Sean McAdam ‏@Sean_McAdam

Breaking: Red Sox have hired John Farrell as manager, signing him to multi-year deal. Official announcement coming soon.

Fly
10-20-2012, 11:53 PM
Nice signing, good piece for their rebuilding movement.

MetsFanatic19
10-20-2012, 11:57 PM
Good signing. I believe he's done very well in Toronto. I can definitly see him leading the Red Sox back to contention soon.

j-bay
10-20-2012, 11:59 PM
According to an industry source, the Red Sox have hired John Farrell as their manager. The team has agreed to hire him on a three-year deal that runs through 2015. Details of the compensation that the Blue Jays will receive for releasing Farrell from his contract as the Toronto manager remain unknown, with details likely to surface in the next couple of days.

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2012/10/20/red-sox-hire-john-farrell-as-manager/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

AI
10-21-2012, 12:07 AM
Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
Source: In John Farrell trade, it appears one player will go in each direction. So #RedSox will get a player from #BlueJays too.

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
Source: Player going from #RedSox to #BlueJays was a major leaguer in 2012.

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
I'm told #BlueJays are getting an infielder. And no, not Will Middlebrooks.

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
And that means it is not Daniel Bard, either.

grandsalami
10-21-2012, 12:07 AM
Aviles/gomez?

MetsFanatic19
10-21-2012, 12:10 AM
Does anybody know when the last time a manager was traded before Ozzie was last year? I don't think I've ever seen it happen and now it has in 2 straight years. I could be wrong, though.

Vampirate
10-21-2012, 12:10 AM
I said it in the Jays and Sox threads, i think Yunel is going to the Red Sox.

JNoel
10-21-2012, 12:14 AM
Ozzie Guillen is going to the Yankees.

MattColby
10-21-2012, 12:15 AM
Does anybody know when the last time a manager was traded before Ozzie was last year? I don't think I've ever seen it happen and now it has in 2 straight years. I could be wrong, though.

Pinella to the Rays.

AI
10-21-2012, 12:15 AM
http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/this-just-in/21235286/source-aviles-going-blue-jays-comp

Mike Aviles to Toronto as compensation for Farrell.

TyrionLannister
10-21-2012, 12:31 AM
Well, Farrell does have plenty of experience leading 75-win teams.

Just kidding. This is a great hire, though honestly anyone is better than Bobby Valentine.

EDIT: Also, ouch. They gave up more to get Farrell than they got in compensation for Epstein.

EasternStar
10-21-2012, 01:02 AM
No shock 4 me. Other than that, it's a really good and smart hire.

Vampirate
10-21-2012, 01:05 AM
Well, Farrell does have plenty of experience leading 75-win teams.

Just kidding. This is a great hire, though honestly anyone is better than Bobby Valentine.

EDIT: Also, ouch. They gave up more to get Farrell than they got in compensation for Epstein.

Well the Cubs aren't even in the same conferance as Chicago, let alone the same division.

GA16Angels
10-21-2012, 01:07 AM
I don't know much about Farrel. What's so great about him that the Red Sox want him so badly? Personally, if I was the Red Sox, I would have hired Ausmus.

j-bay
10-21-2012, 01:09 AM
I don't know much about Farrel. What's so great about him that the Red Sox want him so badly?

ESPN Stats & Info‏@ESPNStatsInfo

Red Sox pitching staff between '07-10 seasons with John Farrell as pitching coach ranked 1st in AL in Ks, Opp BA and shutouts.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
10-21-2012, 01:09 AM
I don't know much about Farrel. What's so great about him that the Red Sox want him so badly? Personally, if I was the Red Sox, I would have hired Ausmus.

They LOVED him when he was a pitching coach here. I like the hire and think it's probably the best pick, but Ausmus would have been pretty good too.

GA16Angels
10-21-2012, 01:10 AM
ESPN Stats & Info‏@ESPNStatsInfo

Red Sox pitching staff between '07-10 seasons with John Farrell as pitching coach ranked 1st in AL in Ks, Opp BA and shutouts.

Hasn't helped the Jays very much with their pitching...

AI
10-21-2012, 01:15 AM
I don't know much about Farrel. What's so great about him that the Red Sox want him so badly? Personally, if I was the Red Sox, I would have hired Ausmus.

Most Sox fans wanted Ausmus. Can't complain about Farrell though, all we gave up was Aviles who we wanted gone anyways and hopefully we got a guy who the FO thinks can fix our pitching woes.

Vampirate
10-21-2012, 01:18 AM
By default Farrell is an upgrade, but I don't know how much that says on Farrel as it says about Valantine.

Rivera
10-21-2012, 01:19 AM
early rumor is adam lind to boston

so:

red sox get:
farrell, lind

toronto gets:
aviles

thats the early rumor anyway

dolphan
10-21-2012, 01:23 AM
I don't know much about Farrel. What's so great about him that the Red Sox want him so badly? Personally, if I was the Red Sox, I would have hired Ausmus.

He used to be the Red Sox pitching coach before the Blue Jays made him their manager. He was next in line to become manager of the sox

GA16Angels
10-21-2012, 01:25 AM
He used to be the Red Sox pitching coach before the Blue Jays made him their manager. He was next in line to become manager of the sox

I know that much. But I never got the sense he was anything special managerial wise.

AI
10-21-2012, 01:32 AM
Not only was Farrell a very good pitching coach during his tenure in Boston, but he was Director of Player Development for the Indians from 2001-06 and as we all know, the Indians were pretty good during that time. They were voted the Organization of the Year in '03 and '04 and BA had their farm system as the best in baseball in 2003. So not only are we getting a guy who the FO likes, but this guy is also a brilliant baseball mind.

grandsalami
10-21-2012, 01:32 AM
I know that much. But I never got the sense he was anything special managerial wise.

you could kind of say the same thing about tito (was **** with Phi) or any coach who was fired then found success with their new team

AI
10-21-2012, 01:38 AM
you could kind of say the same thing about tito (was **** with Phi) or any coach who was fired then found success with their new team

Agreed, and to be fair to Farrell, Toronto's team wasn't really that good.

grandsalami
10-21-2012, 01:39 AM
Agreed, and to be fair to Farrell, Toronto's team wasn't really that good.

doesn't help when your whole rotation all gets injured in a week span, + your sluggers going down...

SenorGato
10-21-2012, 01:40 AM
Good hire IMO. One of the better non-Maddux pitching coaches in the league even in spite of this year's Blue Jays and their problems.

ciaban
10-21-2012, 01:43 AM
what did they have to give up to get him?

AI
10-21-2012, 01:48 AM
what did they have to give up to get him?

Mike Aviles. We're also getting a player back in return, still hasn't been officially named but there's speculation that it's Adam Lind.

Halladay
10-21-2012, 07:02 AM
Not only was Farrell a very good pitching coach during his tenure in Boston, but he was Director of Player Development for the Indians from 2001-06 and as we all know, the Indians were pretty good during that time. They were voted the Organization of the Year in '03 and '04 and BA had their farm system as the best in baseball in 2003. So not only are we getting a guy who the FO likes, but this guy is also a brilliant baseball mind.

Uh huh...so the jays just willingly gave up a genius for basically nothing to a division rival? Don't kid yourself here, a manager is only as good as the roster allows them to be. People bring up how good Boston's pitching staff was while he was there, did anyone ever consider that maybe its because of the quality of pitching on the roster? He sure s hell didn't do much with the Jays pitching staff in 2 years so there goes that theory down that toiley.

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 07:28 AM
Most Sox fans wanted Ausmus. Can't complain about Farrell though, all we gave up was Aviles who we wanted gone anyways and hopefully we got a guy who the FO thinks can fix our pitching woes.

Who wanted Aviles gone? He was better then anyone else we had over there.

AI
10-21-2012, 07:30 AM
Uh huh...so the jays just willingly gave up a genius for basically nothing to a division rival? Don't kid yourself here, a manager is only as good as the roster allows them to be. People bring up how good Boston's pitching staff was while he was there, did anyone ever consider that maybe its because of the quality of pitching on the roster? He sure s hell didn't do much with the Jays pitching staff in 2 years so there goes that theory down that toiley.

For what it's worth, Farrell was 1 win below the Jays pythagorean record. You can't blame him for the product on the field. Not only did he almost meet the wins expectancy, but he did so with Morrow injured, Romero had an off year and Bautista only played in the first half.

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 07:33 AM
Uh huh...so the jays just willingly gave up a genius for basically nothing to a division rival? Don't kid yourself here, a manager is only as good as the roster allows them to be. People bring up how good Boston's pitching staff was while he was there, did anyone ever consider that maybe its because of the quality of pitching on the roster? He sure s hell didn't do much with the Jays pitching staff in 2 years so there goes that theory down that toiley.

Sour grapes.

In 2007, the BRS pitching staff was the best since 1912, and there were some great staffs in that time.

Farrell got one loss total in his two years for the Jays that the team runs scored and allowed predicted he should have.

Obviously as reported AA and Farrell did not get along. So, everyone knew Farrell was out after this year. Why hold a guy you want to get rid of, which delays your plans a year and get nothing? Right. Common sense prevails not jealously of a fan base that hasn't been in the playoffs in almost 20 years.

HowFit
10-21-2012, 07:49 AM
Of course an upgrade over Ozzie...good hire

StayOnBoard
10-21-2012, 08:49 AM
Sour grapes.

In 2007, the BRS pitching staff was the best since 1912, and there were some great staffs in that time.

Farrell got one loss total in his two years for the Jays that the team runs scored and allowed predicted he should have.

Obviously as reported AA and Farrell did not get along. So, everyone knew Farrell was out after this year. Why hold a guy you want to get rid of, which delays your plans a year and get nothing? Right. Common sense prevails not jealously of a fan base that hasn't been in the playoffs in almost 20 years.

I actually liked Farrell, in spite of the fan backlash for him. He made some severely questionable decisions with the bullpen though, but I think he really wasn't given a fair shake and obviously can't control things like injuries and timely hitting. Also, he wasn't exactly given the best to work with, but you can argue he didn't really improve them either. Romero imploded, Drabek couldn't hit the strike zone even when he was healthy and Alvarez took a step backwards this season. I think it's up to Farrell to guide those kids and help them blossom (like he did with Bard, Buchholtz and Lester in Boston).

All that said, I think he does well with Boston, he will be comfortable there and he deserves his shot - but do you know what I'm most happy with? Getting rid of Adam Lind. :clap: Please God let that be true.

Aviles is a nice throw in - **** I'd be happy if the deal with Farrell and Lind for nothing, that's how terrible he is. So tired of watching that guy blow any sort of rally the Jays ever had. I don't know much about Aviles, I know he hit over .300 a few years in KC with modest power and speed, but not much else. Given we had a horrible year from Kelly Johnson I suspect he'll move into 2nd base unless we get another player on the roster. Can't be worse? :shrug:

Regardless, it's a manager, the compensation should be fairly minor and it more or less was. I have no problems with the deal at all (Jays fan), wish Farrell well but hopes he loses :p LOL!

leafswin2011
10-21-2012, 09:04 AM
oh man that would be so nice to get rid of lind.

Nuke
10-21-2012, 09:39 AM
Farrell wasn't anything special... I think i'm more happy to see Lind leave.

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 09:52 AM
Adam Lind RSIP 2012: .333/.398/.613 (88 PA's) - yeah he sucks in the clutch

His problem is that he can't hit lefties, he has buyouts to deal with, and he's a meh/poor fielder at 1B.

Find a RHH to platoon with him, and he's usable as a #6 or #7 hitter, and keeps us from trading specs for players that may not be any better. He's also possibly a DH alternative to Ortiz if Ortiz starts getting to demanding on his deal.

MagicBucsSox
10-21-2012, 10:02 AM
I don't know much about Farrel. What's so great about him that the Red Sox want him so badly? Personally, if I was the Red Sox, I would have hired Ausmus.


Quote:
@ESPNStatsInfo: #RedSox pitching staff between '07-10 seasons w/ John Farrell as pitching coach ranked 1st in AL in Ks, Opp BA & shutouts
Quote:
@JimLouth
Farrell's last year w/ #RedSox, 2010: Jon Lester 19-9, Clay Buchholz 17-7 & Lackey 14-11. They do that in 2013 and they're back in playoffs
You done?

Kelly Gruber
10-21-2012, 10:07 AM
I don't know what a lot of people were expecting, but Aviles and someone to take Lind is a decent deal for a manager that didn't do anything special and wanted Boston.

Aviles is a scrappy player and will help with the clubhouse too. Lind is a depressing player to watch. Sucks the life out of the stadium when he goes up to the plate. A lot of Jays fans will be very happy to not see Lind on the roster. And offence and rally killing black hole.

Jays can hire Sandy Alomar or something and be in the same place, maybe better due to the Latino content on the Jays. Farrell didn't fit there. And they don't have to pay Lind. AA and Farrell butted heads, normally he would have just been fired anyway. I don't see how getting Aviles and ditching Lind is a bad return for a manager that probably should have been fired anyway.

JoeDirt05
10-21-2012, 10:52 AM
Who cares the redsox will still be horrible this year

Bombtista
10-21-2012, 11:11 AM
Adam Lind RSIP 2012: .333/.398/.613 (88 PA's) - yeah he sucks in the clutch

His problem is that he can't hit lefties, he has buyouts to deal with, and he's a meh/poor fielder at 1B.

Find a RHH to platoon with him, and he's usable as a #6 or #7 hitter, and keeps us from trading specs for players that may not be any better. He's also possibly a DH alternative to Ortiz if Ortiz starts getting to demanding on his deal.

LOL If it takes a year for you to realize Adam Lind does not hit thats a lot less time than we wasted.

Unless he reverts to 09 he is a BAD player. He has weeks sometimes even months of way above average play. ( look at may or June before his back injury problems came AGAIN) Then he disappears for the rest of the season.

Also him being involved in the deal isnt finalized, i heard the Sox would include salary relief for us to keep him

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 11:34 AM
LOL If it takes a year for you to realize Adam Lind does not hit thats a lot less time than we wasted.

Thanks I know all about Adam Lind. He can't lefties, and he failed badly in the job of protecting the messiah. He's not a bad bottom 3rd of the order platoon hitter, and it keeps the Sox from having to deal specs for a similar player, or over pay for a similar player.


Also him being involved in the deal isnt finalized, i heard the Sox would include salary relief for us to keep him

That's fine too. Whatever. The Jays didn't get Buchholz, Pedroia, or any of our specs, even the junk ones.

2009mvp
10-21-2012, 11:59 AM
I think we should start trading everyone who wants out of Toronto despite being under contract. At the end we'll be left with the Alomar bros managing the Mike McCoy all-stars.

C-ross12
10-21-2012, 12:07 PM
So its Aviles for Farrell correct?

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 02:33 PM
So its Aviles for Farrell correct?

No, it's Farrell and Carpenter for Aviles.

Toxeryll
10-21-2012, 04:18 PM
i didnt like farrell tbh. hes pretty bad in managing the bullpen and he always wanted to carry 8 relievers but only uses the 8th reliever once a week. he also has a fascination of putting a white lefty 1B in the cleanup spot regardless of how well they hit. also, he seems to be afraid making players accountable for their own mistakes. hes very articulate though but i think hes easily replaceable.

madmike77
10-21-2012, 04:59 PM
As a Jays fan I'm not upset to see him go. He seemed like a nice guy and always said the right things in press conferences. But his in- game moves were nothing special and his bullpen management was downright perplexing.

Nomar
10-21-2012, 06:20 PM
Drabek is a work in progress but i would say Farrell was doing a good job with him this year. He did great with Morrow apparently. Romero collapsed but i think its hard to pin that on Farrell. This all is not to mention the fact that he wasnt the pitching coach anymore.

I cant guarantee anything about Farrell, but im pretty sure he wont hurt the team and anything is better than Bobby V. It will be interesting to see how he interacts with De La Rosa, Barnes, Webster and Owens as they come up.

C-ross12
10-21-2012, 08:42 PM
No, it's Farrell and Carpenter for Aviles.

Ahh I see. Hopefully now teams can be a little more realistic with compensation. Some of the recent talks have been.. dumb. Pedrioa or Lester as compensation for Farrell? Garza or Castro for Theo? All dumb.

CityofTreez
10-21-2012, 08:53 PM
Someone made a thread not too long ago hinting at Boston acquiring Farrell from the Jays. Boston fans wanted him cause Valentine was so bad, and some Jays fans were like "you can have him". I may be wrong, but Farrell did end up in Boston, and Aviles ended up going to Toronto. I think some Jays fans wanted Bard or Bucholtz, but Aviles is a nice pickup for Toronto.

Bombtista
10-21-2012, 09:00 PM
Aviles should actually be a pretty productive utility player for us if that is all he will be.

Unless we make a trade for a second baseman and assuming Kelly Johnson goes elsewhere he will be starting which isnt good enough IMO

FlakeyFool
10-21-2012, 10:16 PM
I cant guarantee anything about Farrell, but im pretty sure he wont hurt the team and anything is better than Bobby V. It will be interesting to see how he interacts with De La Rosa, Barnes, Webster and Owens as they come up.

Farrell never held our younger players accountable when they'd screw up. I don't know how many times Lawrie ****ed up on the base path during the year and it was never corrected.

Jeffy25
10-21-2012, 10:31 PM
I'm actually surprised he would choose to leave Toronto.

They are going to be a good team long term.

Boston is really messed up.

But maybe he can help. He is def he right hire for Boston though. Valentine everybody knew was going to be horrible. I have no idea why he was ever hired.

AI
10-21-2012, 10:38 PM
Jeffy please explain how Boston is going to be a bad team long term, I'm actually quite interested in what you have to say. We have what seems like endless financial flexibility going forward, our only bad contract (John Lackey) expires after 2014 and our farm system is loaded.

madmike77
10-21-2012, 10:46 PM
Farrell never held our younger players accountable when they'd screw up. I don't know how many times Lawrie ****ed up on the base path during the year and it was never corrected.

Yeah Vizquel called Farrell out on that at the end of the year which I thought was kind of cheesy.

Like I said I liked Farrell as a person. He just didn't seem to be anything special as a manager. Wish him all the best in Boston.

Halladay
10-21-2012, 10:50 PM
Sour grapes.

In 2007, the BRS pitching staff was the best since 1912, and there were some great staffs in that time.

Farrell got one loss total in his two years for the Jays that the team runs scored and allowed predicted he should have.

Obviously as reported AA and Farrell did not get along. So, everyone knew Farrell was out after this year. Why hold a guy you want to get rid of, which delays your plans a year and get nothing? Right. Common sense prevails not jealously of a fan base that hasn't been in the playoffs in almost 20 years.

So let me understand you, you believe Farrell has some magic wand that will give Boston a great rotation? Where was this in Toronto? Like I said, coaches and managers are only as good as the roster allows them to be. This has nothing to do with not making the playoffs in 20 years. Boston ends up in the AL East basement again next year and he gets thrown to the wolves like Valentine did.

Halladay
10-21-2012, 10:53 PM
Jeffy please explain how Boston is going to be a bad team long term, I'm actually quite interested in what you have to say. We have what seems like endless financial flexibility going forward, our only bad contract (John Lackey) expires after 2014 and our farm system is loaded.

The only ppl who believe everything you just said is Redsox fans. Take a look at the division your team is in. Plenty of good farm systems and/or finances to go around in the East.

AI
10-21-2012, 11:24 PM
The only ppl who believe everything you just said is Redsox fans. Take a look at the division your team is in. Plenty of good farm systems and/or finances to go around in the East.

Really.

Going into 2013 we only have $45.638M in payroll commitments without arbitration eligible players, compare that to our 2012 payroll of $175.249M. So you are saying that every team in the AL East has that type of financial flexibility going forward? Sorry, but that is complete horseshit.

homie564
10-21-2012, 11:25 PM
The only ppl who believe everything you just said is Redsox fans. Take a look at the division your team is in. Plenty of good farm systems and/or finances to go around in the East.

Depth Wise, the red sox farm system is pretty close to tops right now in the entire MLB...

Jeffy25
10-21-2012, 11:37 PM
Depth Wise, the red sox farm system is pretty close to tops right now in the entire MLB...

Maybe middle of the road.

They don't have any high end talent, they have a lot of B level talent.

Less pitching, more position players.

BackyardRounder
10-21-2012, 11:43 PM
Maybe middle of the road.

They don't have any high end talent, they have a lot of B level talent.

Less pitching, more position players.

That sounds so familiar...


Large group of B- types who can improve. Hitting stronger than pitching at this point.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/23/2728027/2012-baseball-farm-system-rankings-prospects

IF they were 11 before this season, they're probably top 10 now. Still not one of the best though.

Halladay
10-21-2012, 11:46 PM
Really.

Going into 2013 we only have $45.638M in payroll commitments without arbitration eligible players, compare that to our 2012 payroll of $175.249M. So you are saying that every team in the AL East has that type of financial flexibility going forward? Sorry, but that is complete horseshit.

Lol. Guess which team has the richest owner in baseball. Take a guess. You really do talk out of your *** don't you?

Halladay
10-21-2012, 11:47 PM
That sounds so familiar...



http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/23/2728027/2012-baseball-farm-system-rankings-prospects

IF they were 11 before this season, they're probably top 10 now. Still not one of the best though.

Which places Boston's farm where in our Division?

Jeffy25
10-21-2012, 11:54 PM
That sounds so familiar...



http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/23/2728027/2012-baseball-farm-system-rankings-prospects

IF they were 11 before this season, they're probably top 10 now. Still not one of the best though.

Hey, there ya go :)

xnick5757
10-21-2012, 11:55 PM
Jeffy what about xander?

AI
10-21-2012, 11:57 PM
Lol. Guess which team has the richest owner in baseball. Take a guess. You really do talk out of your *** don't you?

The highest payroll Toronto has had from 2000-2012 is $97M so what does having the richest owner in baseball have to do with actually spending that money?

The Boston ownership has proven it is willing to spend, so I provide the actual payroll numbers of 2012 and use it as a ceiling for what we might spend going forward. I don't fantasise as to what my owner "could" spend even though he hasn't been willing to do so the last 10 years.

Halladay
10-22-2012, 12:06 AM
The highest payroll Toronto has had from 2000-2012 is $97M so what does having the richest owner in baseball have to do with actually spending that money?

The Boston ownership has proven it is willing to spend, so I provide the actual payroll numbers of 2012 and use it as a ceiling for what we might spend going forward. I don't fantasise as to what my owner "could" spend even though he hasn't been willing to do so the last 10 years.

The Jays were a rebuilding team. Give it a year or two, the money will be spent without question. TheJays did spend. Look at Burnett,Ryan,Thomas etc. Spending money is great but if you spend it foolishly it means nothing. To say having the richest owner is irrelevant is a ridiculous notion.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 12:11 AM
The Jays were a rebuilding team. Give it a year or two, the money will be spent without question. TheJays did spend. Look at Burnett,Ryan,Thomas etc. Spending money is great but if you spend it foolishly it means nothing. To say having the richest owner is irrelevant is a ridiculous notion.

It is next to irrelevant. Teams don't spend money based on how much money their owner has, they spend money based on the team's revenue. No owner is going to spend twice as much as they have coming in on their team.

Halladay
10-22-2012, 12:16 AM
It is next to irrelevant. Teams don't spend money based on how much money their owner has, they spend money based on the team's revenue. No owner is going to spend twice as much as they have coming in on their team.

Teams also don't sign big ticket free agents with the Jays plan the past few years. The jays have had high payrolls before so I'm not even sure what the argument is here.

AI
10-22-2012, 12:21 AM
The Jays were a rebuilding team. Give it a year or two, the money will be spent without question. TheJays did spend. Look at Burnett,Ryan,Thomas etc. Spending money is great but if you spend it foolishly it means nothing. To say having the richest owner is irrelevant is a ridiculous notion.

It's only irrelevant if he's not spending his money, which is the case isn't it? Once he starts spending, then good for you guys because you deserve it, but in the meantime what does having the richest owner in baseball have to do with the Boston ownership group actually spending? Nothing.

I asked you a simple question, which other team in the AL East currently has the financial flexibility and is willing to spend the money to put out a quality team?

Since you love talking about your Jays when nobody was even talking about them, let's go by the numbers shall we?

Highest team payroll the last 10 years then substract the 2013 payroll commitments (arbitration eligible not included) and we get the sum of how much the team can and is willing to spend if previous history is any indication.

BOSTON $175,249,119 - $45,638,000 = $129,611,119 (before arbitration)
TORONTO $97,973,900 - $61,300,000 = $36,673,900 (before arbitration)

Notice the difference?

Super.
10-22-2012, 12:27 AM
Hey, there ya go :)

That report is from January, hardly accurate at this point.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 12:27 AM
For the record, the Jays spent $83 million in payroll last year and made an overall profit of $24.9 million. The Red Sox spent $175 million in payroll last year and made a profit of $25.4 million. I think it's safe to say that the Red Sox have significantly more payroll flexibility.

That would mean that in order to spend on the level of the Red Sox, the Toronto ownership would have to be able to sustain a $67 million net loss every year. That's even less realistic as some of the John Farrell compensation packages I've seen in the Blue Jays forum.

AI
10-22-2012, 12:30 AM
It is next to irrelevant. Teams don't spend money based on how much money their owner has, they spend money based on the team's revenue. No owner is going to spend twice as much as they have coming in on their team.

Excellent point.

According to Forbes, in 2011 the Red Sox generated $272M in revenue which is good for 2nd in baseball behind only the Yankees. The Jays generated $168M in revenue, good for 24th in baseball.

In 2012, the Red Sox generated $310M in revenue which is good for 2nd in baseball behind guess who? The Yankees. The Jays generated $188M in revenue, good for 20th.

Nomar
10-22-2012, 12:37 AM
Maybe middle of the road.

They don't have any high end talent, they have a lot of B level talent.

Less pitching, more position players.

Bogaerts and Barnes.

People always claim that Sox and Yankees prospects get overrated, but now everyone just assumes they all suck.

Halladay
10-22-2012, 01:07 AM
It's only irrelevant if he's not spending his money, which is the case isn't it? Once he starts spending, then good for you guys because you deserve it, but in the meantime what does having the richest owner in baseball have to do with the Boston ownership group actually spending? Nothing.

I asked you a simple question, which other team in the AL East currently has the financial flexibility and is willing to spend the money to put out a quality team?


Highest team payroll the last 10 years then substract the 2013 payroll commitments (arbitration eligible not included) and we get the sum of how much the team can and is willing to spend if previous history is any indication.

BOSTON $175,249,119 - $45,638,000 = $129,611,119 (before arbitration)
TORONTO $97,973,900 - $61,300,000 = $36,673,900 (before arbitration)

Notice the difference?

What's so hard to understand here? Rogers is one of the most powerful brands in Canada, making profits into the billions. They're going to spend money in the near future, not now. How many ways can I explain it?


Since you love talking about your Jays when nobody was even talking about them, let's go by the numbers shall we?
LOL wtf? In a Jays thread, who would have thought people would be talking about...the Jays.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 01:28 AM
What's so hard to understand here? Rogers is one of the most powerful brands in Canada, making profits into the billions. They're going to spend money in the near future, not now. How many ways can I explain it?


LOL wtf? In a Jays thread, who would have thought people would be talking about...the Jays.

Rogers is a corporation, not a charity. They're not going to lose $50 million a year on the Blue Jays to turn them in to a high spending team.

Halladay
10-22-2012, 01:45 AM
Rogers is a corporation, not a charity. They're not going to lose $50 million a year on the Blue Jays to turn them in to a high spending team.

Pretty easy to say that when the team is in the playoffs, they'll easily make much more money. So there's that...

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 02:00 AM
Pretty easy to say that when the team is in the playoffs, they'll easily make much more money. So there's that...

Making the playoffs is going to somehow cover $50+ million losses every year?

:facepalm:

Halladay
10-22-2012, 02:19 AM
Making the playoffs is going to somehow cover $50+ million losses every year?

:facepalm:

Where is this arbitrary number coming from?

Kenny Powders
10-22-2012, 06:33 AM
For the record, the Jays spent $83 million in payroll last year and made an overall profit of $24.9 million. The Red Sox spent $175 million in payroll last year and made a profit of $25.4 million. I think it's safe to say that the Red Sox have significantly more payroll flexibility.

That would mean that in order to spend on the level of the Red Sox, the Toronto ownership would have to be able to sustain a $67 million net loss every year. That's even less realistic as some of the John Farrell compensation packages I've seen in the Blue Jays forum.

That $175 million dollar payroll really help the Sox stumble to a dead last place finish in the AL East. Payroll means absolutly nothing with win correlation.

Melo15
10-22-2012, 06:53 AM
This is kind of funny to see how defensive both fan bases are getting.

GrumpyOldMan
10-22-2012, 09:51 AM
I think Farrell had a tough time transitioning from coach to manager but lots of very good managers have had that same problem in the beginning. I think he will do just fine in Boston. I think we got a good return for him too. Aviles can play pretty much anywhere and is a huge upgrade over Omar for us.
I wish Farrell all the luck in the world, I just hope the Jays do better. :)

Pinstripe pride
10-22-2012, 09:58 AM
seems like a good fit for the sox

Faabs89
10-22-2012, 10:33 AM
I feel bad for the Sox fans that think just because in 07 their pitchers were winning over 10 games that Farrell is a pitching God. Here are their 07 starting pitcher stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2007.shtml

Beckett and Paps were in beast mode and that's about it every other pitcher has ERA of over 4. Give me a break, only reason this team's staff had so many wins was cause they hit the the ball better than anyone else. Don't kid yourself, Ortiz and Lowell were 4 and 5 in MVP voting. Pitching did not carry this team

bigpapi3438
10-22-2012, 10:55 AM
I feel bad for the Sox fans that think just because in 07 their pitchers were winning over 10 games that Farrell is a pitching God. Here are their 07 starting pitcher stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2007.shtml

Beckett and Paps were in beast mode and that's about it every other pitcher has ERA of over 4. Give me a break, only reason this team's staff had so many wins was cause they hit the the ball better than anyone else. Don't kid yourself, Ortiz and Lowell were 4 and 5 in MVP voting. Pitching did not carry this team

You act like 2007 is the be all end all lol. . . Buchholz and Lester had barely arrived in 07. . and it was clear that each of them lost their way when Farrell left. . .to think Farrell will help both of them get back on track is both likely and logical. . .your post really misses the point with Farrell IMO. . you have to look at the development of the younger pitchers during the time he was there. . and you say Pap was in beast mode. . OK well that reflects well on Farrell then because he was a young closer at the time. . .

StryderSox
10-22-2012, 11:31 AM
That $175 million dollar payroll really help the Sox stumble to a dead last place finish in the AL East. Payroll means absolutly nothing with win correlation.

Not entirely true. The issue is that people tend to think that a higher payroll equals a better team on the field period. They unfortunately don't account for exactly how the larger payroll is spent. In the case of the RedSox they had a high payroll but that money was spent on high risk contracts with not enough evidence to indicate that the investments they were making would pay off. In most cases there was plenty of evidence to point towards the fact that the big contracts they were signing would ultimately fail. For example John Lackey statistically has never pitched well at Fenway with the exception of one or two good outtings. Another example is Crawford whose biggest asset was his speed. Playing the short left field at Fenway makes that irrelevant and they already had their stolen base guy at the top of the order in Ellsbury.

If the RedSox did their homework and elected to spend the Lackey money on Matt Holliday and then instead of giving a boatload to Crawford went after a true ace or a cost effective top of the rotation starter then they have a much different team including a 3-4-5 punch of Holliday, Gonzalez, Ortiz and a rotation of Beckett, Lester, Buchholtz plus another number 1-2 starter.

A bigger payroll defiently gives you an advantage but you still have to use some baseball smarts and spend that additional money wisely instead of blindly paying the top free agents available.

StryderSox
10-22-2012, 11:41 AM
I feel bad for the Sox fans that think just because in 07 their pitchers were winning over 10 games that Farrell is a pitching God. Here are their 07 starting pitcher stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2007.shtml

Beckett and Paps were in beast mode and that's about it every other pitcher has ERA of over 4. Give me a break, only reason this team's staff had so many wins was cause they hit the the ball better than anyone else. Don't kid yourself, Ortiz and Lowell were 4 and 5 in MVP voting. Pitching did not carry this team

It has nothing to do with Farrell being a god. If he was then why did the Jays pitchers with the exception of Morrow and possibly Villanueva not break out? He certainly couldnt straighten out Drabek or Romero. The part that is important is restoring balance to a RedSox clubhouse that was cancerous at best in the past year and a half. A lot of guys on the roster hold a great deal of respect for Farrell from his days as pitching coach.

As for Lester and Buchholtz there is a very good chance Farrell can help get them back on track because he knows them a little bit. When they broke into the league Farrell was their pitching coach and was doing a fairly decent job of developing them at the MLB level. Lester had a horrible year last year but you cant deny that part of that had to be due to the fact that his manager had no confidence in him and chose to embarass him bying leaving him out there to get beat up on more than one occasion rather then help him get things back on track. Now that his manager is the pitching coach that helped him break into the MLB it is a good possibility that he can return to being the pitcher that was looking like an elite lefty and top of the rotation guy 1.5 to 2 years ago.

homie564
10-22-2012, 11:56 AM
Maybe middle of the road.

They don't have any high end talent, they have a lot of B level talent.

Less pitching, more position players.

I'd definitely consider Xander Bogaerts and Jackie Bradley Jr. at least "high end" talents. But I said depth wise anyways. The red sox had somewhere between 6-8 guys in the top 150 rated prospects and the majority of those were top 100 iirc (don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure that was the case).

Jamiecballer
10-22-2012, 12:14 PM
Teams also don't sign big ticket free agents with the Jays plan the past few years. The jays have had high payrolls before so I'm not even sure what the argument is here.

when was the last time we had a top 5 payroll in MLB? it's your argument that is irrelevant here. sorry man.

bagwell368
10-22-2012, 01:50 PM
I feel bad for the Sox fans that think just because in 07 their pitchers were winning over 10 games that Farrell is a pitching God. Here are their 07 starting pitcher stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2007.shtml

Beckett and Paps were in beast mode and that's about it every other pitcher has ERA of over 4. Give me a break, only reason this team's staff had so many wins was cause they hit the the ball better than anyone else. Don't kid yourself, Ortiz and Lowell were 4 and 5 in MVP voting. Pitching did not carry this team

Check out the league norms. The Red Sox were #1 in ERA+ by a large margin and had to best ERA+ of any Boston Red Sox team back to 1912.

Pitching did carry this team. You are looking at the wrong stats, or looking at them in the wrong way. The 2003 and 2004 teams were offense dominated, not 2007.

corky831
10-22-2012, 02:05 PM
I'd definitely consider Xander Bogaerts and Jackie Bradley Jr. at least "high end" talents. But I said depth wise anyways. The red sox had somewhere between 6-8 guys in the top 150 rated prospects and the majority of those were top 100 iirc (don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure that was the case).

Absolutely. Sickels ranked Xander as the 4th best hitting prospect in baseball just recently. They have a ton of high upside talent with Xander, JBJr, Matt Barnes, Henry Owens, Blake Swihart, and Cecchini leading the way.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 02:07 PM
Where is this arbitrary number coming from?

Have you not read the thread? I posted salaries and revenue for the Blue Jays.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 02:07 PM
That $175 million dollar payroll really help the Sox stumble to a dead last place finish in the AL East. Payroll means absolutly nothing with win correlation.

Thank you for the completely off-topic trolling that has no relevance to anything that's been said in this thread.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 02:10 PM
I feel bad for the Sox fans that think just because in 07 their pitchers were winning over 10 games that Farrell is a pitching God. Here are their 07 starting pitcher stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2007.shtml

Beckett and Paps were in beast mode and that's about it every other pitcher has ERA of over 4. Give me a break, only reason this team's staff had so many wins was cause they hit the the ball better than anyone else. Don't kid yourself, Ortiz and Lowell were 4 and 5 in MVP voting. Pitching did not carry this team

The Red Sox pitching staff in 2007 had a better ERA+ than any AL team that year or any year since.

Nomar
10-22-2012, 02:30 PM
The Red Sox pitching staff in 2007 had a better ERA+ than any team that year or any year since.

This. The AL East is the hardest division to pitch in in baseball without question.

Ask Josh Beckett and AJ Burnett

Stress
10-22-2012, 07:14 PM
This. The AL East is the hardest division to pitch in in baseball without question.

Ask Josh Beckett and AJ Burnett

Nice sig.
I wonder if you know what place in the AL East Boston finished in this season?

Who's really delusional?

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 07:19 PM
Nice sig.
I wonder if you know what place in the AL East Boston finished in this season?

Who's really delusional?

What exactly is delusional? I don't see any Red Sox fans predicting they make the World Series next year.

Flaunting finishing in fourth place last year, now that's delusional.

Stress
10-22-2012, 07:39 PM
What exactly is delusional? I don't see any Red Sox fans predicting they make the World Series next year.

Flaunting finishing in fourth place last year, now that's delusional.


What Blue Jay fan is predicting to be in the WS next year?

What's delusional is calling out another team's fan base when your team finishes in last place this year and has to blow up their roster. Nothing is worst than that. You're in no position to talk smack about a team that finishes ahead of you.

Nomar
10-22-2012, 07:49 PM
What Blue Jay fan is predicting to be in the WS next year?

What's delusional is calling out another team's fan base when your team finishes in last place this year and has to blow up their roster. Nothing is worst than that. You're in no position to talk smack about a team that finishes ahead of you.

My sig was about the compensation deal. I was right about that so that would make me the opposite of delusional. What place the sox finished in is irrelevant. I had them 3rd/4th to begin the year if you want to know. Sorry if i offended you, but the guys invading our forum were 90% ignorant and ultimately wrong.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 07:50 PM
What Blue Jay fan is predicting to be in the WS next year?

What's delusional is calling out another team's fan base when your team finishes in last place this year and has to blow up their roster. Nothing is worst than that. You're in no position to talk smack about a team that finishes ahead of you.

Blue Jays fans aren't being called delusional because they expect to win the World Series (although one did claim Mike Aviles would be World Series MVP yesterday). They're being called delusional because they were expecting players like Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester and Buchholz as compensation for John Farrell.

I don't think you understand what delusional means. I don't see any Red Sox fans claiming they didn't finish in last place or that Mike Aviles is unfair compensation. And for the record, no one is talking smack about the Blue Jays. They're making fun of Blue Jays fans delusional expectations.

Halladay
10-22-2012, 07:52 PM
Have you not read the thread? I posted salaries and revenue for the Blue Jays.

It's still an arbitrary figure. I never said the jays would spend X amount, I suggested a higher payroll, which they've already tried doing, and failed.

Stress
10-22-2012, 07:56 PM
My sig was about the compensation deal. I was right about that so that would make me the opposite of delusional. What place the sox finished in is irrelevant. I had them 3rd/4th to begin the year if you want to know. Sorry if i offended you, but the guys invading our forum were 90% ignorant and ultimately wrong.

Understood.
Yes, some Jays' fans were expecting too much as compensation for Farrel.
I'm glad we got anything at all and the opportunity to hire a new manager.

Kenny Powders
10-22-2012, 08:00 PM
My sig was about the compensation deal. I was right about that so that would make me the opposite of delusional. What place the sox finished in is irrelevant. I had them 3rd/4th to begin the year if you want to know. Sorry if i offended you, but the guys invading our forum were 90% ignorant and ultimately wrong.


Blue Jays fans aren't being called delusional because they expect to win the World Series (although one did claim Mike Aviles would be World Series MVP yesterday). They're being called delusional because they were expecting players like Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester and Buchholz as compensation for John Farrell.

I don't think you understand what delusional means. I don't see any Red Sox fans claiming they didn't finish in last place or that Mike Aviles is unfair compensation. And for the record, no one is talking smack about the Blue Jays. They're making fun of Blue Jays fans delusional expectations.


You guys should go check out the Theo to Chicago threads if you want to see delusional.

2009mvp
10-22-2012, 08:03 PM
Blue Jays fans aren't being called delusional because they expect to win the World Series (although one did claim Mike Aviles would be World Series MVP yesterday).

For ****'s sake dude, sarcasm.


They're being called delusional because they were expecting players like Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester and Buchholz as compensation for John Farrell. I don't think you understand what delusional means. I don't see any Red Sox fans claiming they didn't finish in last place or that Mike Aviles is unfair compensation. And for the record, no one is talking smack about the Blue Jays. They're making fun of Blue Jays fans delusional expectations.

Yes, now let me go dig up a few posts expecting Castro/Garza et al. as compensation for Theo and use that to cast judgement on the entire Sawx fanbase. That seems valid.

Stress
10-22-2012, 08:04 PM
Blue Jays fans aren't being called delusional because they expect to win the World Series (although one did claim Mike Aviles would be World Series MVP yesterday). They're being called delusional because they were expecting players like Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester and Buchholz as compensation for John Farrell.

I don't think you understand what delusional means. I don't see any Red Sox fans claiming they didn't finish in last place or that Mike Aviles is unfair compensation. And for the record, no one is talking smack about the Blue Jays. They're making fun of Blue Jays fans delusional expectations.

I understand what delusional means. :eyebrow:
I'm just saying if you're team finishes in last place and has to blow up their roster you should be a little more humble.

Stress
10-22-2012, 08:06 PM
You guys should go check out the Theo to Chicago threads if you want to see delusional.

:clap:

yankfan
10-22-2012, 08:08 PM
Good move. I bet you he will be a good manager. He seems like a good manager. One thing I remember about him is he used to be pitching coach for Boston.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 08:10 PM
I understand what delusional means. :eyebrow:
I'm just saying if you're team finishes in last place and has to blow up their roster you should be a little more humble.

Humble? It's not like I was the general manager or a player on the team. You don't actually think how your favorite team performs on the field is in some way a reflection on you, do you?

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 08:11 PM
For ****'s sake dude, sarcasm.



Yes, now let me go dig up a few posts expecting Castro/Garza et al. as compensation for Theo and use that to cast judgement on the entire Sawx fanbase. That seems valid.

Go for it, I agree that anyone that expected Matt Garza as compensation for Theo Epstein was delusional. I could care less if you make fun of them.

Stress
10-22-2012, 08:18 PM
Humble? It's not like I was the general manager or a player on the team. You don't actually think how your favorite team performs on the field is in some way a reflection on you, do you?

Yes, I do.
You chose to endorse the team.

Halladay
10-22-2012, 08:27 PM
Go for it, I agree that anyone that expected Matt Garza as compensation for Theo Epstein was delusional. I could care less if you make fun of them.

It's "I couldn't care less" :)

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 08:38 PM
It's "I couldn't care less" :)

I literally could care less, but it's close.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 08:39 PM
Yes, I do.
You chose to endorse the team.

:facepalm:

Halladay
10-22-2012, 08:40 PM
I literally could care less, but it's close.

Stop being so delusional.

BackyardRounder
10-22-2012, 08:45 PM
Stop being so delusional.

Go Blue Jays!

papipapsmanny
10-22-2012, 09:06 PM
Maybe middle of the road.

They don't have any high end talent, they have a lot of B level talent.

Less pitching, more position players.

what are you smoking man? I bet it is ranked top 7 this year in terms of farm systems.

they have plenty of young pitching Doubront, Rubby De la Rosa, no longer prospects but young and promising

Barnes, Webster are not far off either

Position wise they are stacked

Nomar
10-22-2012, 09:13 PM
Understood.
Yes, some Jays' fans were expecting too much as compensation for Farrel.
I'm glad we got anything at all and the opportunity to hire a new manager.

If i were you... id go after Ausmus or Hickey.

Vixious
10-23-2012, 04:15 AM
What I don't understand is why everybody thinks that the team's former pitching coach (who admitted that having 25 players on his plate is a lot different than focusing on a handful of guys) is going to right a ship that Terry Francona, a guy who won two World Series with the same team, couldn't fix. I don't understand how this entire situation is being analyzed. People talk about Valentine as if he was the manager during the epic collapse; it was Tito. Farrell left Boston at the end of 2010, going into September of 2011, the Sox were the best team in baseball. You guys really think that because the team suddenly became horrible in the last month of that season, that it was somehow all relative to the loss of their pitching coach? I think the same way that some delusional Jays fans were disappointed with the compensation for Farrell, a lot of Red Sox fans are going to end up disappointed when they realize that no manager is worth 20 wins and that this isn't a wound that can be patched up with just one kiddy pink band-aid.

Greedy22
10-23-2012, 05:59 AM
What I don't understand is why everybody thinks that the team's former pitching coach (who admitted that having 25 players on his plate is a lot different than focusing on a handful of guys) is going to right a ship that Terry Francona, a guy who won two World Series with the same team, couldn't fix. I don't understand how this entire situation is being analyzed. People talk about Valentine as if he was the manager during the epic collapse; it was Tito. Farrell left Boston at the end of 2010, going into September of 2011, the Sox were the best team in baseball. You guys really think that because the team suddenly became horrible in the last month of that season, that it was somehow all relative to the loss of their pitching coach? I think the same way that some delusional Jays fans were disappointed with the compensation for Farrell, a lot of Red Sox fans are going to end up disappointed when they realize that no manager is worth 20 wins and that this isn't a wound that can be patched up with just one kiddy pink band-aid.

They screwed up using Francona as the scapegoat and know it. Farrell is a good choice to take over though and he knows quite a few of the guys in the clubhouse, Valentine was just a **** show from the beginning and I personally feel he lost those guys in April.

Vixious
10-23-2012, 07:17 AM
I still don't know if these guys should be putting so much stock in the "John Farrell is pitching god" basket. He's got 20 other guys to worry about this time around, he's got an entire fanbase and whole lot of media to worry about, he's got scrutiny and pressure to worry about. There's a reason you have pitching coaches in the first place, Farrell is not going to have the time and energy to act as a pitching coach. Maybe the simple fact that he's back makes a chemical change in the minds and mechanics of all the Red Sox pitchers or maybe people realize that those starters just aren't as good as they used to be. Lester regressed in Boston, Romero tanked in Toronto, Lincecum tanked in San Francisco, Ubaldo tanked in Cleveland. It happens. I think the idea that the entire fault of guys like Beckett and Lester falling a bit simply because Farrell left, I feel that that is almost delusional. I think some people just don't want to face the possibility of the fact that the players on their team are having bad years or just aren't as good anymore.

Personally, I feel like Lester is still a great pitcher. Dice-K sucked even when Farrell was there, Lackey is just a turd and Beckett is gone. So did they really bring Farrell back to "fix" Lester? A guy who had 3.3 WAR last year? Or did they bring him back to "fix" Bard, a guy who never started a game prior to 2012, who maybe just MAYBE isn't cut out to be a starter? Or is it for Buchholz who could attribute someone of his struggles to the fact that he missed most of last year with an injury?

I feel like this "rotation collapse" and Farrell-is-the-savior business is incredibly overblown. Lester had a down year, Dice-K and Lackey just naturally sucked as they were expected to, Buchholz was injured, Bard didn't convert successfully from a reliever to a starter, and Beckett was traded. What exactly is inexplicable here, what exactly is waiting for Farrell to work his miracles? Could it be that the team just isn't as good as it used to be?

BackyardRounder
10-23-2012, 12:31 PM
I still don't know if these guys should be putting so much stock in the "John Farrell is pitching god" basket. He's got 20 other guys to worry about this time around, he's got an entire fanbase and whole lot of media to worry about, he's got scrutiny and pressure to worry about. There's a reason you have pitching coaches in the first place, Farrell is not going to have the time and energy to act as a pitching coach. Maybe the simple fact that he's back makes a chemical change in the minds and mechanics of all the Red Sox pitchers or maybe people realize that those starters just aren't as good as they used to be. Lester regressed in Boston, Romero tanked in Toronto, Lincecum tanked in San Francisco, Ubaldo tanked in Cleveland. It happens. I think the idea that the entire fault of guys like Beckett and Lester falling a bit simply because Farrell left, I feel that that is almost delusional. I think some people just don't want to face the possibility of the fact that the players on their team are having bad years or just aren't as good anymore.

Personally, I feel like Lester is still a great pitcher. Dice-K sucked even when Farrell was there, Lackey is just a turd and Beckett is gone. So did they really bring Farrell back to "fix" Lester? A guy who had 3.3 WAR last year? Or did they bring him back to "fix" Bard, a guy who never started a game prior to 2012, who maybe just MAYBE isn't cut out to be a starter? Or is it for Buchholz who could attribute someone of his struggles to the fact that he missed most of last year with an injury?

I feel like this "rotation collapse" and Farrell-is-the-savior business is incredibly overblown. Lester had a down year, Dice-K and Lackey just naturally sucked as they were expected to, Buchholz was injured, Bard didn't convert successfully from a reliever to a starter, and Beckett was traded. What exactly is inexplicable here, what exactly is waiting for Farrell to work his miracles? Could it be that the team just isn't as good as it used to be?

I don't think he's going to work any miracles. I think he will probably help Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz to a small degree, he has a track record of doing that. And I don't think he'll get walked all over like Tito and Valentine. He's a 6'4'', probably 230 pound, no nonsense guy.

But ultimately, whether the Red Sox improve or not next year will come down to the roster. Good rosters tend to make managers look smart.

Shifty1 69
10-23-2012, 12:51 PM
9 pages so far.... and for what?
The Sox got their man, misguided obsession or not (personal opinion, his in-game management was less than impressive and there was a lot of reporting the second half of the season regarding a lack of accountability for those that screwed up repeatedly.... yup, you Brett Lawrie and Rajai Davis), but he was handed a less than stellar hand with a massive run of key injuries this season.

The Jays got a piece (albeit bench piece ultimately I hope) for their roster for a coach that they apparently didnt really want back anyways (and he wanted out so their hands were tied as it was).

Baseball managers are so inconsequential yet people argue and whine as tho its really a big deal.
Aviles will likely have more impact on wins/losses than the difference between Farrell and Ausmus/Alomar jr./Wallach/Acta etc etc etc... but neither team is closer to contention as a result.

Farrell is great for the camera, loves the organization and wont likely get eaten up by the media... so this is a GREAT move for the Sawx.. at least up until the 1st pitch is thrown, ;) then all bets are off and we can wait and see how things go in Beantown.... till then nobody knows anything relevant.

I firmly dont believe either team is as bad as last year looked, but I also think both teams have a lot of work to do to truly right the ship.

Shifty1 69
10-23-2012, 12:58 PM
I don't think he's going to work any miracles. I think he will probably help Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz to a small degree, he has a track record of doing that. And I don't think he'll get walked all over like Tito and Valentine. He's a 6'4'', probably 230 pound, no nonsense guy.
But ultimately, whether the Red Sox improve or not next year will come down to the roster. Good rosters tend to make managers look smart.

Do some background reading on how this season went and a lot of the reported issues with a lack of accountability or control.. (romero, vizquel, YEscobar, Lawrie etc)... hell I think if he didnt have issues with Bautista acting like a douche early in the year staring down umpires and showing up pitchers then JF dropped the ball (I say if because I obviously dont know the intimate details of how the douchebaggery was handled).

I do believe JF was around for much of the "Chicken and Beer" issues if I am not mistaken. Maybe not the year of the collapse itself but as a big part of the management structure that allowed it to get to that point of clubhouse attitude problems and dissention.

JF may be absolulte outstanding with the Sox? I agree with your last sentence for sure.

BackyardRounder
10-23-2012, 06:38 PM
Do some background reading on how this season went and a lot of the reported issues with a lack of accountability or control.. (romero, vizquel, YEscobar, Lawrie etc)... hell I think if he didnt have issues with Bautista acting like a douche early in the year staring down umpires and showing up pitchers then JF dropped the ball (I say if because I obviously dont know the intimate details of how the douchebaggery was handled).

I do believe JF was around for much of the "Chicken and Beer" issues if I am not mistaken. Maybe not the year of the collapse itself but as a big part of the management structure that allowed it to get to that point of clubhouse attitude problems and dissention.

JF may be absolulte outstanding with the Sox? I agree with your last sentence for sure.

As I recall he immediately handled the Escobar incident by suspending him and immediately handled the Vizquel incident with a closed door meeting. I wasn't aware of any controversies with Romero, Bautista or Lawrie and two of those players have come out and endorsed Farrell publicly since he was hired by the Red Sox.

The chicken and beer bull happened the year after Farrell left and many people speculated at the time that the players wouldn't have gotten away with that if Farrell was still the pitching coach.

Vixious
10-24-2012, 03:24 AM
and many people speculated at the time that the players wouldn't have gotten away with that if Farrell was still the pitching coach.

If "many people speculated" that at the time, then why wasn't it pinned on the pitching coach? Why was Tito the one to get beaned by Beantown? I honestly believe that was probably the biggest mistake the Red Sox made in the time that I've watched baseball. If I was their ownership and I got a chance for do-overs, I'd make the John Lackey signing again before I fired Terry Francona a second time.

BackyardRounder
10-24-2012, 10:47 AM
If "many people speculated" that at the time, then why wasn't it pinned on the pitching coach? Why was Tito the one to get beaned by Beantown? I honestly believe that was probably the biggest mistake the Red Sox made in the time that I've watched baseball. If I was their ownership and I got a chance for do-overs, I'd make the John Lackey signing again before I fired Terry Francona a second time.

The pitching coach was also fired. It's funny, I've heard people saying that the Red Sox are screwed because the team collapse under Tito so firing Valentine won't change anything, and I've heard that the Red Sox are screwed because no one can manage them as well as Tito. Seems like they can't win no matter what they do.