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JordansBulls
10-19-2012, 04:17 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-shooting-guards-Dwyane-Wade-Kobe-Bryant-James-Harden-101412#tab=photo-title=Dwyane+Wade%252C+Miami+Heat&photo=31366508

1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. Harden
4. Joe Johnson
5. Iggy
6. Manu
7. E. Gordon
8. M. Ellis
9. P. George
10. Ray Allen/Tony Allen

P Harvy
10-19-2012, 04:19 PM
Joe Johnson is overrated imo

seikou8
10-19-2012, 04:19 PM
you know what not bad but flip manu and iggy and isn't iggy a sf

seikou8
10-19-2012, 04:20 PM
Joe Johnson is overrated imo

yup he should be 6th

xxplayerxx23
10-19-2012, 04:23 PM
Flip manu and JJ, maybe Iggy over Manu? Eh, JJ should be sixth but not a bad list. IN b4 Laker fan *****es.

Avenged
10-19-2012, 04:25 PM
Still don't think Gordon and his 9 games played belongs on this list.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-19-2012, 04:26 PM
^^Agree, Eric Gordon is injury prone at the moment. Let's see him actually play a full season.

b@llhog24
10-19-2012, 04:29 PM
you know what not bad but flip manu and iggy and isn't iggy a sf

He's a swing-man and in any event now that he's in Denver Gallo plays SF.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 04:30 PM
^^Agree, Eric Gordon is injury prone at the moment. Let's see him actually play a full season.

Wade has never played a full season, does that mean he shouldn't be on the list either?

Eric Gordon, on talent, is IMO the 4th or 5th (behind iggy) best SG in the NBA.

BIG worm
10-19-2012, 04:32 PM
id flip flop kobe and wade, but it could just be my l.a. bias

Korman12
10-19-2012, 04:33 PM
Iggy is the SG in Denver, and he played SG/SF when he was in Philly.

The list isn't bad, I just don't get how JJ is fourth.

Johnson scores better than Iggy, Iggy does everything else better.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-19-2012, 04:34 PM
Wade has never played a full season, does that mean he shouldn't be on the list either?

Eric Gordon, on talent, is IMO the 4th best SG in the NBA.

Of course Wade has played a full season.

Eric Gordon is a guy based on potential and high stock, and his stock raised after being the centerpiece in a package for Chris Paul and then signing a huge offer sheet by PHX (only to get matched by NOLA). He has a high stock, but unless we see him consistently on the court with consistent performance on the court, Eric Gordon is just a media hype darling. Does he have game? Absolutely. But injuries have hindered this guy from showing maximum performance on the court.

Burkey3472
10-19-2012, 04:36 PM
Manu and Iggy should jump JJ (even though Iggy is more of a SF).

P Harvy
10-19-2012, 04:36 PM
id flip flop kobe and wade, but it could just be my l.a. bias

Could? I definitely think so lol

Rivera
10-19-2012, 04:38 PM
you know what not bad but flip manu and iggy and isn't iggy a sf

except iggy is a swing man whos gonna start at SG for the Denver Nuggets


Still don't think Gordon and his 9 games played belongs on this list.

i didnt know 9 games determined how good a player is we will just ignore his nba career thus far and only focus on the 9 games he played when healthy last year cause only last year matters

seikou8
10-19-2012, 04:40 PM
He's a swing-man and in any event now that he's in Denver Gallo plays SF.

right but i like more at sf but he is so versatile he will be fine

Bravo95
10-19-2012, 04:40 PM
Switch Manu and Joe.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 04:41 PM
Of course Wade has played a full season.

Eric Gordon is a guy based on potential and high stock, and his stock raised after being the centerpiece in a package for Chris Paul and then signing a huge offer sheet by PHX (only to get matched by NOLA). He has a high stock, but unless we see him consistently on the court with consistent performance on the court, Eric Gordon is just a media hype darling. Does he have game? Absolutely. But injuries have hindered this guy from showing maximum performance on the court.

The most games Wade has ever played in a season is 79, I know it's close but that says something about his ability to stay on the court. Three seasons of 61 or fewer games in 82 game schedules and he missed 17 games last year out of 66. 4/9 years he has missed substantial time.

Obviously Gordon has health issues, but the talent is there and until his injuries slow him down the talent hasen't gone away.

NYYCowboys
10-19-2012, 04:46 PM
I'd take Manu, Iggy, and a healthy Eric Gordon over Joe Johnson any day.

jerellh528
10-19-2012, 04:50 PM
switch kobe and wade

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-19-2012, 04:50 PM
Flip Kobe and wade also Ellis and Gordon are better then harden

seikou8
10-19-2012, 04:51 PM
Flip Kobe and wade also Ellis and Gordon are better then harden

what:facepalm:

Greedy22
10-19-2012, 04:52 PM
Joe Johnson should be 6th at best and I'd flip flop Kobe and Wade, but to each his own on that one.

shep33
10-19-2012, 04:56 PM
I'm okay with Kobe at 2, although my homerism thinks they're interchangeable at 1.

JasonJohnHorn
10-19-2012, 04:57 PM
I think Kobe deserves that top spot considering hwo strong a season he had last year, and considering how weak a season (relatively speaking of course) Wade had.

I'd make a few changes, but this list isn't too crazy.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-19-2012, 04:57 PM
what:facepalm:

What's their to face palm Eric Gordan when healthy is a top 3 sg Ellis is just a flat out better scorer... And harden sucks when you take away his strong side of the court he's not good going both left and right oh and he's a flopper he's overrated to me

tp13baby
10-19-2012, 04:59 PM
He's a swing-man and in any event now that he's in Denver Gallo plays SF.

He is shooting guard in every situation unless we go small. Chandler is the 3 but both have enough size to shift to the 4 moving iggy to the 3. Iggy and Manu over Joe Johnson.

tp13baby
10-19-2012, 05:01 PM
What's their to face palm Eric Gordan when healthy is a top 3 sg Ellis is just a flat out better scorer... And harden sucks when you take away his strong side of the court he's not good going both left and right oh and he's a flopper he's overrated to me

Yupp, I think Denver can neutrilize him with Iggy and Chander can make it harder on Durant.

dh144498
10-19-2012, 05:01 PM
Wade - "But when he's healthy, he's still close to unstoppable. "
That's their reason? :facepalm:

Baller1
10-19-2012, 05:03 PM
Manu is ridiculously underrated. Put him fourth, and slide the others down.

seikou8
10-19-2012, 05:04 PM
What's their to face palm Eric Gordan when healthy is a top 3 sg eEllis is just a flat out better scorr... And harden sucks when you take away his strong side of the court he's not good going both left and right oh and he's a flopper he's overrated to me

ellis is flat out inefficient scorer and gordon hasn't not been healthy harden had one most efficient seasons from a guard and shot 605 ts very impressive.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-19-2012, 05:04 PM
The most games Wade has ever played in a season is 79, I know it's close but that says something about his ability to stay on the court. Three seasons of 61 or fewer games in 82 game schedules and he missed 17 games last year out of 66. 4/9 years he has missed substantial time.

Obviously Gordon has health issues, but the talent is there and until his injuries slow him down the talent hasen't gone away.

Issues of back-to-backs or suspensions etc could have been the cause of him missing 3 games. Really not much of a different.


Eric Gordon has been in the NBA for only 3-4 yrs. Check at the percentage of games that he has played combined. Remember, he missed a good chunk of games in the 2010-2011 season with the Clips. He's been injury prone since he entered the league.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 05:08 PM
Issues of back-to-backs or suspensions etc could have been the cause of him missing 3 games. Really not much of a different.


Eric Gordon has been in the NBA for only 3-4 yrs. Check at the percentage of games that he has played combined. Remember, he missed a good chunk of games in the 2010-2011 season with the Clips. He's been injury prone since he entered the league.

I'm not comparing the 2 players healthwise. I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to say that someone who is obviously one of the top 10 players at their position shouldn't be on there at all. He is penalized enough for his injuries being ranked where he is on that list. If he stays healthy all year you could make a case for him as high as #3.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 05:09 PM
Wade
Kobe
Manu
Harden
Iggy
Johnson

after that, nice little drop. We will see if Gordon brings a higher level of game this year.

ReconZach
10-19-2012, 05:10 PM
I really like Hardens game but he is being overrated to much!

IndyRealist
10-19-2012, 05:19 PM
I'll take Paul George at #9 after only two years. Probably a bit high though, maybe they thought he grew another couple of inches this summer.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-19-2012, 05:21 PM
I'm not comparing the 2 players healthwise. I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to say that someone who is obviously one of the top 10 players at their position shouldn't be on there at all. He is penalized enough for his injuries being ranked where he is on that list. If he stays healthy all year you could make a case for him as high as #3.

Exactly, I want to see him healthy for atleast 80% of the regular season before I put him him in my top 5 SGs. Does he have the potential? Yes indeed. But to maximize that potential and projection of his ranking, he needs to actually stay on the floor first.

RLundi
10-19-2012, 05:23 PM
id flip flop kobe and wade, but it could just be my l.a. bias

Definitely.

29$JerZ
10-19-2012, 05:26 PM
Wade
Kobe
Manu
Harden
Iggy
Johnson

after that, nice little drop. We will see if Gordon brings a higher level of game this year.

That's my list even though I consider Iggy more of a SF.

topdog
10-19-2012, 05:31 PM
I'll take Paul George at #9 after only two years. Probably a bit high though, maybe they thought he grew another couple of inches this summer.

SG is kind of slim pickin's though. He's also one of the few guys on that list that you associate with the slightest bit of defense. More than anything, it's a wager on what he'll produce this year with a larger role on offense.

b@llhog24
10-19-2012, 05:38 PM
manu is ridiculously underrated. Put him fourth, and slide the others down.

+1

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 05:40 PM
Pretty good list imo.
Agree with most of their rankings.

Top 2 isn't debatable btw... Wade is better at basically everything at this point.

MintBerryCrunch
10-19-2012, 05:41 PM
Kobe > wade

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-19-2012, 05:43 PM
Pretty good list imo.
Agree with most of their rankings.

Top 2 isn't debatable btw... Wade is better at basically everything at this point.

Is Wade your close friend too? :rolleyes:

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 05:43 PM
Kobe > wade
No.

Wade is miles better defensively and offensively Wade destroys Kobe in efficiency / consistency and he is just far more unstoppable at this point.

Also Wade isn't as reliant on his athleticism when it comes to playmaking the way Kobe is.

Kobe's only "edge" is raw ppg which is mainly a product of him playing a few more mpg and not because he scores at a faster pace.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 05:44 PM
Is Wade your close friend too? :rolleyes:
Nope he isn't but it is clear he is a better player then Kobe at this point and has been for the past 3 years.
It really isn't even debatable *imo* if you have a good understanding of the game.

RLundi
10-19-2012, 05:46 PM
Is Wade your close friend too? :rolleyes:

He is right though- Wade is better than Kobe and there's not really a huge debate that can be said, save for scoring and recent injuries.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 05:57 PM
No.

Wade is miles better defensively and offensively Wade destroys Kobe in efficiency / consistency and he is just far more unstoppable at this point.

Also Wade isn't as reliant on his athleticism when it comes to playmaking the way Kobe is.

Kobe's only "edge" is raw ppg which is mainly a product of him playing a few more mpg and not because he scores at a faster pace.

ummm.....WAT?!

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 06:00 PM
That's my list even though I consider Iggy more of a SF.

he played 2 for a long time, moved to the 3, and now is back to the 2. He is interchangeable in reality. Basically, on defense, he is guarding your best wing, regardless of position.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 06:01 PM
ummm.....WAT?!
Wade is highly gifted in terms of court vision and playmaking ability/skill.

Kobe isn't nearly as gifted in those aspects.

Kobe is far more reliant on his athleticism and ability to attract double teams off the dribble when it comes to creating for others.

Pakman
10-19-2012, 06:06 PM
ummm.....WAT?!
Wade is highly gifted in terms of court vision and playmaking ability/skill.

Kobe isn't nearly as gifted in those aspects.

Kobe is far more reliant on his athleticism and ability to attract double teams off the dribble when it comes to creating for others.LOL kobe isn't nearly as gifted? STOP IT.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 06:06 PM
Wade is highly gifted in terms of court vision and playmaking ability/skill.

Kobe isn't nearly as gifted in those aspects.

Kobe is far more reliant on his athleticism and ability to attract double teams off the dribble when it comes to creating for others.

I honestly think you have the two mixed up. Kobe's skill level allows him, at age 34, with more than 2x the amount of games Wade has played, at age 30, in the conversation on which one is better. Imagine what Wade will look like with 1330 games on his knees. Frankly, I doubt he gets to that many at all.

Look, I think Wade is slightly better, but dude, no way on this earth he ages as well as Kobe has. None.

Punk
10-19-2012, 06:10 PM
Joe Johnson is overrated imo

No he's not.

18ppg, 6 time all-star, carrying the Hawks offensively the last 5 years and playoff births.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 06:14 PM
No he's not.

18ppg, 6 time all-star, carrying the Hawks offensively the last 5 years and playoff births.

if you rate him any higher than 5-6th, you are overrating him. He wasn't his teams best player the past 2 seasons, and when he did get to the playoffs, he became the incredible shrinking man. Literally. Johnson had a few playoff runs where he wasn't even an average NBA starter.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 06:16 PM
I honestly think you have the two mixed up. Kobe's skill level allows him, at age 34, with more than 2x the amount of games Wade has played, at age 30, in the conversation on which one is better. Imagine what Wade will look like with 1330 games on his knees. Frankly, I doubt he gets to that many at all.

Look, I think Wade is slightly better, but dude, no way on this earth he ages as well as Kobe has. None.
When did I say Wade will age like Kobe did/has?
Kobe is far better then Wade when it comes to durability and longevity.

My point was that Wade is significantly more gifted as a playmaker/creator so he will be better at creating for others and garnering assists even once his athleticism declines.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 06:19 PM
When did I say Wade will age like Kobe did/has.
Kobe is far better then Wade when it comes to durability and longevity.

My point was that Wade is significantly more gifted as a playmaker/creator so he will be better at creating for others and garnering assists even once his athleticism declines.

Wade is far more dependent on his athleticism. Kobe is bigger, more skilled, and his style of play is more tailored to last longer. Wade's biggest asset is his change of pace and leaping ability. He will struggle once its gone to be elite, where as Kobe's athletic ability has been gone a couple years now. He doesn't get shots in the paint, he doesn't attack that often, and yet, here we are debating which player is better, when one is 34, with 1330 games on his knees, and the other is 30, with under half those games.

You are already seeing Kobe minus his elite athletic ability. I fear Wade will be a much bigger dropoff. Creating is great and all, but as an individual, Wade doesn't create to a Nash level or anything crazy, can't shoot long balls, and will decline much sharper.

Bravo95
10-19-2012, 06:20 PM
No he's not.

18ppg, 6 time all-star, carrying the Hawks offensively the last 5 years and playoff births.
Joe "carried" them the first couple years. But around that '09-'10 season, the Hawks found an identity as a defensive-oriented team, which is when Josh and Al both moved past him in the hierarchy. Joe was their 3rd best player the past couple seasons, sometimes 4th best when Jamal Crawford had it going.

Alayla
10-19-2012, 06:23 PM
Its nice to know tony allen and monte ellis are better than Stepten Curry

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 06:28 PM
Wade is far more dependent on his athleticism
Maybe in terms of scoring but not in terms of playmaking.
Kobe is more reliant on his athleticism when it comes to playmaking.


Kobe is bigger, more skilled.
The bolded is arguable I think.

Kobe is a better shooter but there is more to skill then just shooting.
Wade is extremely skilled in most facets of the game and he isn't a bad shooter either.
He has shown the ability to be a good 3pt shooter (09 / 10) and he had a few different seasons where his mid-range game was elite.

Hypothetically there shouldn't be anything preventing him from re-honing and relying more on his jumper when he gets older.


He will struggle once its gone to be elite.
I disagree.
Wade is a highly skilled basketball player and is not as reliant on athleticism as you think he is (imo).
Even if he doesn't re-hone his jumper as his athleticism declines I still think he'd remain elite.
His ability to get to the basket and create shots is far from being completely dependent on his athleticism.

Time will show us who was correct though. :)

The goods
10-19-2012, 06:31 PM
Kobe is better and wade had a horrible season last year, and I don't care if he was hurt so was Kobe, and I'd take Ellis over harden right now.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 06:36 PM
Wade had a horrible season last year.
How is 23 / 5 / 5 on 50% shooting in 33mpg + elite defense horrible?

Wade was clearly a FAR better player then Kobe in the 2012 regular season when he was on the floor.

This is pretty much undebatable and to prove my point all you have to do is compare their PER ratings.

Wade was #3 in the league with a 26.3 rating.
Kobe was not even in the Top #10 and his rating was like 19.5 or something.

If you want to say Kobe "contributed more" in the regular season because he played 9 more games and played 5-6 more mpg I guess thats an argument but its pretty weak and it doesn't change the fact that Wade was clearly the better player.

In the playoffs Wade contributed far more then Kobe did and consistently dominated and played well down the stretch of games while Kobe consistently choked down the stretch of games.

Here are their playoff numbers through 2 rounds.

Wade : 26 / 5 / 4apg on 51%FG / 55%TS / 111ortg / 96drtg

Compared to...

Kobe : 30 / 5 / 4apg on 44%FG / 52%TS / 109ortg / 112drtg

So really... who has the edge offensively?
Kobe slightly higher volume while Wade blows him away in efficiency.

Defensively Wade was amazing / elite while Kobe was a liability / terrible.

It is absurd to think Kobe was better in the playoffs.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 06:38 PM
Maybe in terms of scoring but not in terms of playmaking.
Kobe is more reliant on his athleticism when it comes to playmaking.


The bolded is arguable I think.

Kobe is a better shooter but there is more to skill then just shooting.
Wade is extremely skilled in most facets of the game and he isn't a bad shooter either.
He has shown the ability to be a good 3pt shooter (09 / 10) and he had a few different seasons where his mid-range game was elite.

Hypothetically there shouldn't be anything preventing him from re-honing and relying more on his jumper when he gets older.


I disagree.
Wade is a highly skilled basketball player and is not as reliant on athleticism as you think he is (imo).
Even if he doesn't re-hone his jumper as his athleticism declines I still think he'd remain elite.
His ability to get to the basket and create shots is far from being completely dependent on his athleticism.
Time will show us who was correct though. :)

Sorry but 30% is average, at best.

As for the second bold, it's contradictory and just untrue.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 06:42 PM
Andrew32;24004970]Maybe in terms of scoring but not in terms of playmaking.
Kobe is more reliant on his athleticism when it comes to playmaking.

This will be my last post defending the guy I hate the most. Wade's entire game is athletic based dude. Every bit of it. When it goes away, so does his elite basketball ability. Point to any skillset you want, Wade simply doesn't have the skill level scoring the ball that Kobe does once that athleticism dies. Factor in the Wade is already constantly dealing with lower body issues due to his style of play, and his future as elite looks fairly bleak in a couple of years.


The bolded is arguable I think.

Kobe is a better shooter but there is more to skill then just shooting.
Wade is extremely skilled in most facets of the game and he isn't a bad shooter either.
He has shown the ability to be a good 3pt shooter (09 / 10) and he had a few different seasons where his mid-range game was elite.

He is also 6'4", and relies on his athleticism to create separation. Kobe doesn't anymore.


Hypothetically there shouldn't be anything preventing him from re-honing and relying more on his jumper when he gets older.

He will need to. But he is smaller, and will have a quicker drop off because of it. He also has constant lower body issues, and that will hurt him later.



I disagree.
Wade is a highly skilled basketball player and is not as reliant on athleticism as you think he is (imo).

Its not like Wade will have an Iverson cliff jump decline, I am simply saying, 1050-1100 games into his career, I can't see him as a top 10 player. He is absolutely skilled, but when putting Bryant and Wade next to each other, and asking which one is more dependent on athleticism, its easily Wade.



Even if he doesn't re-hone his jumper as his athleticism declines I still think he'd remain elite.
His ability to get to the basket and create shots is far from being completely dependent on his athleticism.

Time will show us who was correct though. :)

Well, considering we are still arguing amongst us which player is better NOW, when one has played more than double the amount of games and is 4 years older, I think the answer is obvious. To me at least.

Again, feel free to reply, I will read it, but I am not defending Kobe Bryant anymore. It makes me sick to my stomach, but you are saying things that are not true at all.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 06:43 PM
Sorry but 30% is average, at best.

As for the second bold, it's contradictory and just untrue.
#1.
He shot 36% and 41% from the 3pt line in the 09 / 10 playoffs while attempting over 7 a game.

He has always been able to knock down 3's and you never see his man giving him the open 3 which shows opposing teams/defenders respect his ability to knock them down.

Over his career he has not been a good 3pt shooter but he has at times shown the ability to knock them down consistently.

If he put in the work he could "hypothetically" become good at them.

#2.
Its not contradictory.
Even if his speed/explosiveness declines he will still have elite handles, coordination and ability to change direction usually doesn't decline as fast.

Obviously he will be far less effective at getting to the basket or into the paint if his athleticism declines but VS many defenders he'll still be able to even with reduced athleticism.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 06:51 PM
#1.
He shot 36% and 41% from the 3pt line in the 09 / 10 playoffs while attempting over 7 a game.

He has always been able to knock down 3's and you never see his man giving him the open 3 which shows opposing teams/defenders respect his ability to knock them down.

Over his career he has not been a good 3pt shooter but he has at times shown the ability to knock them down consistently.

If he put in the work he could "hypothetically" become good at them.

#2.
Its not contradictory.
Even if his speed/explosiveness declines he will still have elite handles, coordination and ability to change direction usually doesn't decline as fast.

Obviously he will be far less effective at getting to the basket or into the paint if his athleticism declines but VS many defenders he'll still be able to even with reduced athleticism.

As Hawkeye just said, much of the stuff you are saying is just flat out false.

Also, using a cumulative 12 games sample size over the course of 2 playoff series in 2 seperate years as an indicator of "hypethetically becoming a good 3 point shooter" as opposed to the rest of his career as a below average 3-pt shooter is just laughable.

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 06:51 PM
PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A ROLE PLAYER AND A GUY WHO COMES OFF THE BENCH IS BETTER THAN JOE JOHNSON! Joe is 3rd best sg in the NBA.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 06:53 PM
PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A ROLE PLAYER AND A GUY WHO COMES OFF THE BENCH IS BETTER THAN JOE JOHNSON! Joe is 3rd best sg in the NBA.

Can't believe you have the balls to say that after last night.

jerellh528
10-19-2012, 06:55 PM
Pretty good list imo.
Agree with most of their rankings.

Top 2 isn't debatable btw... Wade is better at basically everything at this point.

lol dude give it a rest, we are all aware of your agenda and most of us see your name and skip right over your posts without reading because we know you are just bashing kobe and promoting wade..people who think kobe is better than wade aren't wrong automatically and a case can be made for either at this point in their careers,which says a lot about kobe's high level of play all these years because he is an old man in basketball years and played probably double the mins wade has in his career.. we all have our own opinions..oh but you dont hate kobe, you actually like his game and hope he plays 10 more years..:rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 06:56 PM
PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A ROLE PLAYER AND A GUY WHO COMES OFF THE BENCH IS BETTER THAN JOE JOHNSON! Joe is 3rd best sg in the NBA.

Harden is more efficient, a better scorer, a better ball handler, has a much better offensive rating, and keeps his level of play steady when he gets in the playoffs.

You do realize that Harden doesn't start because they like their second unit having a scoring punch, right? And you do realize that he plays starters minutes, and is in at the end of games, right?

Wes Johnson started 64 games last year. Is he better than Harden?

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 07:03 PM
Harden is more efficient, a better scorer, a better ball handler, has a much better offensive rating, and keeps his level of play steady when he gets in the playoffs.

You do realize that Harden doesn't start because they like their second unit having a scoring punch, right? And you do realize that he plays starters minutes, and is in at the end of games, right?

Wes Johnson started 64 games last year. Is he better than Harden?

Here we go again with your stats that mean nothing. STATS probably show a player has a better ratings in stuff but if you compare the players they arent close.

You put Harden on a Hawks team he cant achieve what Joe did, Joe carried that team on his back.

3rd best players at their position dont come off the bench, if he was as great as all of you say he wouldnt be a bench player. Joe is a better all around offense player, can Harden post up like Joe? Can Harden create off the dribble like Joe? You guys just put Joe down the list because of his contract.

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 07:04 PM
Can't believe you have the balls to say that after last night.

One game. Everyone has off nights.

Monta is beast
10-19-2012, 07:06 PM
1) Wade
2) Bryant
3) Harden
4) Gordon
5) Ellis
6) Johnson
7) Ginobili
8) George
9) Klay Thompson
10) Allen

29$JerZ
10-19-2012, 07:07 PM
Here we go again with your stats that mean nothing. STATS probably show a player has a better ratings in stuff but if you compare the players they arent close.

You put Harden on a Hawks team he cant achieve what Joe did, Joe carried that team on his back.

3rd best players at their position dont come off the bench, if he was as great as all of you say he wouldnt be a bench player. Joe is a better all around offense player, can Harden post up like Joe? Can Harden create off the dribble like Joe? You guys just put Joe down the list because of his contract.

Stats mean nothing to you when they show you how your opinion of your player is wrong.

What a shocker.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 07:08 PM
Here we go again with your stats that mean nothing. STATS probably show a player has a better ratings in stuff but if you compare the players they arent close.

You put Harden on a Hawks team he cant achieve what Joe did, Joe carried that team on his back.

3rd best players at their position dont come off the bench, if he was as great as all of you say he wouldnt be a bench player. Joe is a better all around offense player, can Harden post up like Joe? Can Harden create off the dribble like Joe? You guys just put Joe down the list because of his contract.

Those stats do mean something, if they are too complex for you, stick to the archaic stuff.

Nice theory. Did you know JJ was the 3rd best player on his team the past 2 seasons, just like Harden? How did JJ perform in the playoffs? How about Harden.

Grow up dude. Seriously.

bluefire7002
10-19-2012, 07:11 PM
No.

Wade is miles better defensively and offensively Wade destroys Kobe in efficiency / consistency and he is just far more unstoppable at this point.

Also Wade isn't as reliant on his athleticism when it comes to playmaking the way Kobe is.

Kobe's only "edge" is raw ppg which is mainly a product of him playing a few more mpg and not because he scores at a faster pace.

Lol... even at Kobe's age today, Kobe is still better offensively... Wade will not be able to evolve his game like Kobe has, and Wade's footwork is no where near Kobe's which hes going to need to work on these next few years

mrblisterdundee
10-19-2012, 07:16 PM
!

mrblisterdundee
10-19-2012, 07:18 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-shooting-guards-Dwyane-Wade-Kobe-Bryant-James-Harden-101412#tab=photo-title=Dwyane+Wade%252C+Miami+Heat&photo=31366508

1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. Harden
4. Joe Johnson
5. Iggy
6. Manu
7. E. Gordon
8. M. Ellis
9. P. George
10. Ray Allen/Tony Allen
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Joe Johnson
4. James Harden
5. Andre Igoudala
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Eric Gordon
8. Monta Ellis
9. Paul George
10. Klay Thompson

Ray Allen won't have enough playing time to reach the top-10 again, unless he goes out and hits a bunch of last-second game-winners.

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 07:19 PM
Those stats do mean something, if they are too complex for you, stick to the archaic stuff.

Nice theory. Did you know JJ was the 3rd best player on his team the past 2 seasons, just like Harden? How did JJ perform in the playoffs? How about Harden.

Grow up dude. Seriously.

You love talking about the playoffs, LeBron had a bad playoffs in 2010 and a bad finals in 2011 did he drop from the best player? No.

Listen there are STAT Padders im not calling Harden one but some players look good on those stats but if you compare the players its obvious who the better player is. For example Monta Ellis has great stats is he better than Iggy, Manu, Harden to you?

You have your favorites you dont like Joe Johnson its been known from your posts. You never give him any credit. And Joe wasnt the 3rd best player on his team, who had the ball at the end of the game for the game winner? Who handled the ball? Who led the team in PPG, Assists, Minutes?

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 07:21 PM
You love talking about the playoffs, LeBron had a bad playoffs in 2010 and a bad finals in 2011 did he drop from the best player? No.

Listen there are STAT Padders im not calling Harden one but some players look good on those stats but if you compare the players its obvious who the better player is. For example Monta Ellis has great stats is he better than Iggy, Manu, Harden to you?

You have your favorites you dont like Joe Johnson its been known from your posts. You never give him any credit. And Joe wasnt the 3rd best player on his team, who had the ball at the end of the game for the game winner? Who handled the ball? Who led the team in PPG, Assists, Minutes?

I could care less about Johnson. If you don't understand how poor he as annually played in the playoffs outside a year in Phoenix, don't worry, if his multiple year trend continues, you will see it this year.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 07:21 PM
Here we go again with your stats that mean nothing. STATS probably show a player has a better ratings in stuff but if you compare the players they arent close.

You put Harden on a Hawks team he cant achieve what Joe did, Joe carried that team on his back.

3rd best players at their position dont come off the bench, if he was as great as all of you say he wouldnt be a bench player. Joe is a better all around offense player, can Harden post up like Joe? Can Harden create off the dribble like Joe? You guys just put Joe down the list because of his contract.

This has already been answered. It's the coaches preference just like Popovich has done with Manu all these years. You really need to get over it and accept that Harden is better than JJ and not let it bother you so much.

jerellh528
10-19-2012, 07:22 PM
1.bryant
2.wade
3.harden
4.jjohnson
5.gordon
6.ginobili
7.ellis
8.afflalo
9.thompson
10.allen

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 07:23 PM
This has already been answered. It's the coaches preference just like Popovich has done with Manu all these years. You really need to get over it and accept that Harden is better than JJ and not let it bother you so much.

Manu is a lot different than Harden.
Pop likes bringing good scorers off the bench like Jax and Manu now .

Thabo is 1/5 the defender Bruce Bowen was for the Spurs.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 07:25 PM
Manu is a lot different than Harden.
Pop likes bringing good scorers off the bench like Jax and Manu now .

Thabo is 1/5 the defender Bruce Bowen was for the Spurs.

Actually, James Harden has been compared to Manu for his entire career. And apparently Scott Brooks likes to do the same thing as Pop.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 07:26 PM
btw, Monta Ellis does not have great stats DMF. This is why I am telling you that your stat knowledge is beyond lacking.

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 07:26 PM
Actually, James Harden has been compared to Manu for his entire career. And apparently Scott Brooks likes to do the same thing as Pop.

If Joe, Iggy, or someone else was on the OKC Thunder they wouldnt be coming off the bench.

mrblisterdundee
10-19-2012, 07:27 PM
Joe Johnson should be 6th at best and I'd flip flop Kobe and Wade, but to each his own on that one.

With a good point guard, I think Joe Johnson will be the biggest offensive weapon on a vastly improved Nets team. He's also able to distribute and rebound the ball well and is only 31. I'm betting he rebounds this year.
It's a close battle between him and James Harden, but I think he takes it. When Harden strikes out on his own, he'll definitely explode in productivity, unless the Thunder are planning on creating a dynasty.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2012, 07:29 PM
Manu is a lot different than Harden.
Pop likes bringing good scorers off the bench like Jax and Manu now .

Thabo is 1/5 the defender Bruce Bowen was for the Spurs.

So does Brooks dude. He likes bringing a great scoring option off the bench, and that is the exact freaking same thing, you are just choosing to ignore it.

You literally answer your own ridiculous questions half the time, without even knowing it.

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 07:34 PM
Also if Harden is this good, he should say something to coach. If he stays in this role and excepts it he lacks confidence. Players that know they are among the best dont come off the bench.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 07:34 PM
If Joe, Iggy, or someone else was on the OKC Thunder they wouldnt be coming off the bench.

Iggy isn't really a scorer so he would be a good fit for that team in the starting lineup. The only reason Harden comes off the bench rather than Westbrook is because Westbrook was there before Harden was. When Harden was a rookie he came off the bench and obviously it has worked for them. You have to understand that it doesn't matter who starts, it matters who finishes.

beasted86
10-19-2012, 07:34 PM
Good to see Manu was not overrated like he usually is. I always get a kick out of people still thinking he is the 3rd best SG.

Personally I'd take JJ over Harden. Much better defender and is a capable passer. Harden is much less of a #1 option than JJ is (neither are true #1 options BTW).

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 07:36 PM
Good to see Manu was not overrated like he usually is. I always get a kick out of people still thinking he is the 3rd best SG.

Personally I'd take JJ over Harden. Much better defender and is a capable passer. Harden is much less of a #1 option than JJ is (neither are true #1 options BTW).

EGG-ZACK LEE Right

NFLNBA
10-19-2012, 07:37 PM
I get that Kobe is older and doesn't have the athleticism he once had but he is clear cut STILL number 1. Hate him or Love him. I actually think its absurd to put Wade above him.

DoMeFavors
10-19-2012, 07:39 PM
I get that Kobe is older and doesn't have the athleticism he once had but he is clear cut STILL number 1. Hate him or Love him. I actually think its absurd to put Wade above him.

How is it "ABSURD" I think Wade is better but even if Kobe is better Wade isnt far behind. It is close.

thrice4
10-19-2012, 07:39 PM
love that Ellis is on there

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 07:40 PM
Also if Harden is this good, he should say something to coach. If he stays in this role and excepts it he lacks confidence. Players that know they are among the best dont come off the bench.

Why?

If he did this he would be putting himself before the team. I'm sure he is confident in his ability to start a game. Hell, I went to ASU at the same time he did and watched him play himself into the 3rd overall pick, I know he can start games.

Fact of the matter is, the Thunder have 3 guys on the perimeter who are top 3 at their position, they don't need them all on the floor at the same time to start the game.

KnickaBocka.44
10-19-2012, 07:40 PM
Good to see Manu was not overrated like he usually is. I always get a kick out of people still thinking he is the 3rd best SG.

Personally I'd take JJ over Harden. Much better defender and is a capable passer. Harden is much less of a #1 option than JJ is (neither are true #1 options BTW).

Harden is a very capable passer.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 07:42 PM
I get that Kobe is older and doesn't have the athleticism he once had but he is clear cut STILL number 1. Hate him or Love him. I actually think its absurd to put Wade above him.
Offensively Wade was more efficient / consistent and unstoppable.
Offensively Kobe had better volume due to playing more mpg.

Defensively Wade is Elite.
Defensively Kobe is a Medicore.

Wade was #3 in PER.
Kobe was not in the Top 10.

Wade had the better ORTG / DRTG / WSP48 / RAPM.

Why exactly is it absurd to rank Wade higher?
All metrics point to him being the better player and they give him a pretty massive edge.

Knowing that and yet still saying its Kobe and even saying "its clear cut/not close" seems like a pretty weak opinion to me.

SteBO
10-19-2012, 07:43 PM
I get that Kobe is older and doesn't have the athleticism he once had but he is clear cut STILL number 1. Hate him or Love him. I actually think its absurd to put Wade above him.
There's nothing to back up that Kobe is clear cut #1, as opposed to Wade. It's not far fetched either way, but to think it's absurd that Wade is above him IS absurd.

jerellh528
10-19-2012, 07:44 PM
Offensively Wade was more efficient / consistent and unstoppable.
Offensively Kobe had better volume due to playing more mpg.

Defensively Wade is Elite.
Defensively Kobe is a Medicore.

Wade was #3 in PER.
Kobe was not in the Top 10.

Wade had the better ORTG / DRTG / WSP48 / RAPM.

Why exactly is it absurd to rank Wade higher?
All metrics point to him being the better player and they give him a pretty massive edge.

Knowing that and yet still saying its Kobe and even saying "its clear cut/not close" seems like a pretty weak opinion to me.

why do you always say wade has elite defense? lol

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 07:49 PM
why do you always say wade has elite defense? lol

Because he does. lol

LAKERMANIA
10-19-2012, 07:50 PM
Nope he isn't but it is clear he is a better player then Kobe at this point and has been for the past 3 years.
It really isn't even debatable *imo* if you have a good understanding of the game.

I don't mind you thinking Wade is better than Kobe as of now.. But the bold part is just flat out wrong.

abe_froman
10-19-2012, 07:51 PM
why do you always say wade has elite defense? lol

because he usually ranks at/near the top in defensive metrics not only for his position but among all perimeter guys and the "eye test" backs up that point to a good degree

Bravo95
10-19-2012, 07:51 PM
Joe wasnt the 3rd best player on his team, who had the ball at the end of the game for the game winner? Who handled the ball? Who led the team in PPG, Assists, Minutes?
Stats don't really tell the story. The 2009-10 season was the strongest team the Hawks had over their run with Joe -- they went 53-29 and had the #3 seed -- and Jamal Crawford had the bball in his hands just as often and was usually the one with the bball in the final moments when the game was close, often taking the final shot. Josh and Al were coming into their own as well-rounded players, and were more important on both ends of the court than Joe to that particular team's success. Basically stayed that way until he was dealt.

Meaze_Gibson
10-19-2012, 08:12 PM
Came in to say that Kevin Martin should is at least top 7. Paul George is not a better sg than Kevin Martin. Eric Gordon is debateable. James Harden is debateable. Monte Ellis as well. These 4 are interchangeable in my honest opinion.

Bruno
10-19-2012, 08:16 PM
J.J. should be behind Iggy and Manu.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 08:24 PM
I don't mind you thinking Wade is better than Kobe as of now.. But the bold part is just flat out wrong.
How so?

Wade was light years better in 2010 and 2011.

Kobe went through a massive decline in 2010 as he exited his Prime and dealt with injuries while Wade remained at his Peak / 2009 level.

Kobe simply sucked in 2011 so... not much debate their either.

This year was the first since 2009 where you could perhaps make a weak argument for Kobe being better.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-19-2012, 08:29 PM
:catfight:

*eats popcorn

Deception
10-19-2012, 08:29 PM
1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. Iggy
4. Manu
5. Harden
6. Joe Johnson
7. E. Gordon
8. M. Ellis
9. P. George
10. Ray Allen

Fixed

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-19-2012, 08:46 PM
Nope he isn't but it is clear he is a better player then Kobe at this point and has been for the past 3 years.
It really isn't even debatable *imo* if you have a good understanding of the game.


Lol hell to the no wade better then Kobe for 3 years now lol maybe one year out of the last 3 but Kobe is still going strong and is better then wade

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 08:54 PM
Lol hell to the no wade better then Kobe for 3 years now lol maybe one year out of the last 3 but Kobe is still going strong and is better then wade
Only 1/3 years?
Which year was Kobe better then Wade?

2010? 2011?
Ridiculous.
Wade was far better both years by all metrics and it isn't even close.

This year was perhaps debatable but Wade certainly has the stronger case for best SG considering he is backed by most statistical metrics.

jerellh528
10-19-2012, 08:56 PM
Only 1/3 years?
Which year was Kobe better then Wade?

2010? 2011?
Ridiculous.
Wade was far better both years by all metrics and it isn't even close.

This year was perhaps debatable but Wade certainly has the stronger case for best SG considering he is backed by most statistical metrics.

you are one persistent lil dude lol.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-19-2012, 08:57 PM
Only 1/3 years?
Which year was Kobe better then Wade?

2010? 2011?
Ridiculous.
Wade was far better both years by all metrics and it isn't even close.

This year was perhaps debatable but Wade certainly has the stronger case for best SG considering he is backed by most statistical metrics.

2010 Kobe was still better(game winner after game winner NBA champion finals MVP)
2011 was when wade might have been better then Kobe because Kobe had like 4-5 different types of injuries
2012 I'm sorry but this is Kobe!

NFLNBA
10-19-2012, 09:03 PM
Offensively Wade was more efficient / consistent and unstoppable.
Offensively Kobe had better volume due to playing more mpg.

Defensively Wade is Elite.
Defensively Kobe is a Medicore.

Wade was #3 in PER.
Kobe was not in the Top 10.

Wade had the better ORTG / DRTG / WSP48 / RAPM.

Why exactly is it absurd to rank Wade higher?
All metrics point to him being the better player and they give him a pretty massive edge.

Knowing that and yet still saying its Kobe and even saying "its clear cut/not close" seems like a pretty weak opinion to me.

Does anyone watch games anymore!? Who gets double and tripple teamed on a regular basis? Lebron creates everything for wade. Everyone focuses in him. Wade is Robin to his team. Kobe is Batman and is the main focal point every night. qm Lets see how Kobe's PER numbers look when its quiet possible he is now not the main focal point. But even considering all this im pretty sure Kobe should have won the scoring title last year but decided not to play last game giving durrant title by .1%

Just ask the players , they all say Kobe. He has that killer instict. He wants to rip ur heart out. When it matters they are on different levels. Kobe is the 2nd best SG of all time and if he gets 1-2.more titles maybe best all time. This convo is absurd.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 09:04 PM
2010 Kobe was still better(NBA champion finals MVP)
Kobe had a mediocre playoff run in 2010.
He was ****** in 2/4 playoff series.

Sure he won FMVP but it was questionable if he even deserved it (Gasol) and it was one of the worst Finals performances ever for a FMVP winner.

Wade had a far better regular season in 2010 and was absolutely dominant in the playoffs against Boston who Kobe struggled mightily against.

He was much better on both ends of the floor and this is supported by every metric/stat imaginable and the eye test.

There is no argument for Kobe being a better individual player that year and saying he was better due to team success is just ignorant considering how horrid Wade's cast was.

:facepalm:

Wade > Kobe since 2009

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 09:10 PM
Does anyone watch games anymore!? Who gets double and tripple teamed on a regular basis? Lebron creates everything for wade. Everyone focuses in him. Wade is Robin to his team. Kobe is Batman and is the main focal point every night.
This is a poor argument.

Kobe was getting infrequent double teams last year due to his reduced athleticism and ability to get to the rim and its been that way since 2011.

Defenders were frequently able to keep him out of the lanes/paint without double teams and still effectively force him into jumpers.

The difference in defensive attention and double teams each player received (Wade/Kobe) was non-existent.
If anything I'd say Wade was doubled more.

Also saying Lebron "creates everything for Wade" is just an idiotic statement with nothing to back it.
Only a very small % of Wade's points came directly from Lebron assists.
Wade still was doubled frequently and Lebron is not the type of player who gets alot of defensive attention when he is playing off the ball since he isn't that great of a shooter.

Infact against Boston they chose to focus their defense on Wade not Lebron.

tapajafri
10-19-2012, 09:13 PM
Wade has never played a full season, does that mean he shouldn't be on the list either?

Eric Gordon, on talent, is IMO the 4th or 5th (behind iggy) best SG in the NBA.

your argument is irrelevant because Wade at least has a resume to go off of whereas Gordon has been injury plaugued so much compared to Wade. Both of them not playing a full season doesn't mean an ounce of crap when one guy plays at least more than like 5 games a year. It seems like Gordon has missed at least 60% of his career whereas Wade only misses a few games a year.

tapajafri
10-19-2012, 09:14 PM
Kobe had a mediocre playoff run in 2010.
He was ****** in 2/4 playoff series.

Sure he won FMVP but it was questionable if he even deserved it (Gasol) and it was one of the worst Finals performances ever for a FMVP winner.

Wade had a far better regular season in 2010 and was absolutely dominant in the playoffs against Boston who Kobe struggled mightily against.

He was much better on both ends of the floor and this is supported by every metric/stat imaginable and the eye test.

There is no argument for Kobe being a better individual player that year and saying he was better due to team success is just ignorant considering how horrid Wade's cast was.

:facepalm:

Wade > Kobe since 2009

Completely agree. Excellent post... especially about the 2010 Finals MVP. Gasol deserved that.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-19-2012, 09:19 PM
Andrew32......TROLLING HARD!!!!!!!

Coming, to a theatre near you!

tapajafri
10-19-2012, 09:22 PM
Does anyone watch games anymore!? Who gets double and tripple teamed on a regular basis? Lebron creates everything for wade. Everyone focuses in him. Wade is Robin to his team. Kobe is Batman and is the main focal point every night. qm Lets see how Kobe's PER numbers look when its quiet possible he is now not the main focal point. But even considering all this im pretty sure Kobe should have won the scoring title last year but decided not to play last game giving durrant title by .1%

Just ask the players , they all say Kobe. He has that killer instict. He wants to rip ur heart out. When it matters they are on different levels. Kobe is the 2nd best SG of all time and if he gets 1-2.more titles maybe best all time. This convo is absurd.

First of all, this whole batman robin argument is completely stupid. It's a team game. Kobe was robin to Shaq...so what? Should that take anything away from Kobe? No. Wade is the 2nd best player on the Heat. Should that take anything away from Wade? No...especially when the best player in the league is on your team. What if Lebron was on the lakers? Kobe's "robin" so should that take anything away from Kobe's ranking as a player? Absolutely not. Second, Kobe is NOT the main focal point of the lakers offense. The lakers are a TEAM. The last 2 years, everything ran through Gasol and Bynum. Whenever Kobe shot too many times, the lakers lost...and that's a FACT. There are stats and a W/L record that backs that up. Kobe is the best player on the lakers, but that doesn't mean he's the focal point. Kobe will be the first one to tell you that the lakers were more successful by running through Gasol and Bynum. Lebron doesn't "create everything" for Wade. Wade is one of the top 5 players in the game. Are you saying Wade can't put a franchise on his back without Lebron? Wade is a future hall of famer and already had the resume before Lebron even got to Miami. You arguments are just flawed all over the place. So if Lebron was on the lakers, does that mean Kobe's not as good because Lebron "creates everything" for Kobe? Absolutely not and nothing should be taken away from Kobe when he's "robin"....this whole batman and robin crap doesn't mean a thing. You think teams don't double team Wade too? I'm pretty sure they'd rather make Chalmers, Battier, Miller, etc beat them 1 on 1 than Wade (or Lebron). And your argument about Kobe having that killer instinct doesn't support the case for him being a better player in this argument because Robert Horry also had a killer instinct. Does that mean he's better than Wade? Horry has ripped hearts out many times....yeah, no argument there. And you say Kobe is 2nd best SG of all time, which is true....but that doesn't mean anything in this argument. RIGHT NOW, this VERY day, Wade is a better player than bryant....and that's only because bryant is near the end of his road. 2 years ago when Shaq was on Boston, was he a better center than Dwight Howard because he's a top 5 center of all time? Nope. Pick better arguments, and don't use this batman robin crap like it means a player is better than the other. Kobe was robin to Shaq, but that doesn't mean kobe isn't as good as he is. Wade is "robin" to Lebron, but Wade is still one of the top 5 players in the game today.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-19-2012, 09:26 PM
Anyone beginning to think that Andrew32 is none other than.....

ANDREW BYNUM!!! :speechless:

And he's on PSD and hating on Kobe because he got traded to Philly?

Supreme LA
10-19-2012, 09:33 PM
Flip Kobe and Wade please. Kobe owns Wade. Always has and always will. Even Wade will admit that.

Andrew32, if you have something stupid to say don't bother. I've update my ignore list with trolls frequently and you've been blocked for a few months.

Andrew32
10-19-2012, 09:34 PM
Flip Kobe and Wade please. Kobe owns Wade.

Maybe in bizzaro world. :p

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-19-2012, 09:34 PM
Flip Kobe and Wade please. Kobe owns Wade.

PER mang!

beasted86
10-19-2012, 09:37 PM
EGG-ZACK LEE Right

Don't try and use my posts to endorse your horse sh-t trolling garbage posts.


Harden is a very capable passer.

He is pretty decent at passing, just think JJ is better at passing and is more proven in late game playmaking. Harden just seems more one dimensional with his passing and often gets the benefit of the whistle because of the way he drives with the ball so low.

beasted86
10-19-2012, 09:40 PM
Flip Kobe and Wade please. Kobe owns Wade. Always has and always will. Even Wade will admit that.

Says the guy who said Kobe was better than Shaq since 2001.

But whatever man, everybody has opinions.

Supreme LA
10-19-2012, 09:43 PM
Says the guy who said Kobe was better than Shaq since 2001.

But whatever man, everybody has opinions.

I said Kobe was the more skilled scorer by that time. Don't get it twisted.

Lakers4life08
10-19-2012, 09:46 PM
wow Harden is rally getting way too much attention.....he is good,but not that good

beasted86
10-19-2012, 09:46 PM
I said Kobe was the more skilled scorer by that time. Don't get it twisted.

I don't even know what that means.

Was he a better scorer? Did he have more diverse ways of scoring? Was he harder to defend? Really I have no clue... But it surely can't be the first or third question I asked in this series.

Either way, I don't care too much. It's your opinion... there are little to few facts you can use to support that idea. It's perfectly okay for you to have an opinion.

Supreme LA
10-19-2012, 09:48 PM
I don't even know what that means.

Was he a better scorer? Did he have more diverse ways of scoring? Was he harder to defend? Really I have no clue... But it surely can't be the first or third question I asked in this series.

All except the 3rd. Disagree?

I never once said Kobe was better than Shaq as an overall player during their 3-peat. Don't put words in my mouth.

bluefire7002
10-19-2012, 10:20 PM
LOL cant believe this has been going on all day...
Put Kobe in Miami with Lebron and take Wade out = Miami is a better team PERIOD

I dont understand how they managed to put Wade at #1 this year with all his injuries last year and that series where he was almost non existent against the Pacers. I see a lot of ppl saying on here he's going to BEAST this year being healthy but I agree with Hawkeye (for once) saying hes going to decline. His best years are behind him and he relies on that athleticism a LOT more than Kobe does.

Greedy22
10-20-2012, 12:22 AM
PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A ROLE PLAYER AND A GUY WHO COMES OFF THE BENCH IS BETTER THAN JOE JOHNSON! Joe is 3rd best sg in the NBA.

:laugh:

Of course you'd say that.

Vinny642
10-20-2012, 12:36 AM
JJ is way too high

Andrew32
10-20-2012, 12:45 AM
Put Kobe in Miami with Lebron and take Wade out = Miami is a better team PERIOD

I dont understand how they managed to put Wade at #1 this year with all his injuries last year and that series where he was almost non existent against the Pacers.
Actually they'd be alot worse.

D-Wade is a big reason why Miami is such a great defensive team.
He is one of the best perimeter defenders in the game and the combined help defense of him and Lebron are why they can frustrate opposing teams so well at times.

Replace him with Kobe and that defense turns to crap.

Offensively Wade is also more efficient/consistent and less ball dominant.
So I don't see how Kobe would improve them offensively.

Wade dissapeared against the Pacers?
He had only one really bad game in that series (G3) outside of that he was mostly spectacular.

G1 + G2 = 27 / 3 / 4apg / 1.5bpg.
G4 - G7 = 33 / 7 / 4apg on 62% shooting.

Without Wade they don't get past Indiana let alone Boston.

Ebbs
10-20-2012, 12:48 AM
Pretty good list IMO give me Monta at #3 though. And I'll take on Tyfreak at #10 over the 1 dimensional Allens.

amos1er
10-20-2012, 12:49 AM
2012 Season:

Kobe: 27.9 ppg, 4.6 apg, 5.4 rpg, 52.7 TS% All NBA first team, All NBA defensive second team, Only missed 11% of the regular season.

Wade: 22.1 ppg, 4.6 apg, 4.8 rpg, 55.9 TS% All NBA third team, Didn't make an All NBA defensive team, missed 26% of the regular season!!! :speechless:

2012 Playoffs:

Kobe: 30 ppg, 4.3 apg, 4.8 rpg, 52.5 TS%

Wade: 22.8 ppg, 4.3 apg, 5.2 rpg, 52.6 TS%

Can someone please explain to me how Wade was ranked higher that Kobe???

Andrew32
10-20-2012, 12:54 AM
2012 Season:

Kobe: 26.9 ppg, 4.6 apg, 5.4 rpg, 52.7 TS% All NBA first team, All NBA defensive second team, Only missed 11% of the regular season.

Wade: 22.1 ppg, 4.6 apg, 4.8 rpg, 55.9 TS% All NBA second team, Didn't make an All NBA defensive team, missed 26% of the regular season!!! :speechless:

2012 Playoffs:

Kobe: 30 ppg, 4.3 apg, 4.8 rpg, 52.5 TS%

Wade: 22.8 ppg, 4.3 apg, 5.2 rpg, 52.6 TS%

Silly post.
Kobe played 8-9 more games then Wade... wow.

He scored slightly more (ppg / volume) while Wade was far more efficient and consistent.

Kobe was a mediocre/poor defender while Wade was one of the best wing defenders in the league.

Posting their h2h playoff numbers is unfair since Wade's sample size is much larger.

Comparing their numbers through 2 rounds (equal sample size) paints a more accurate picture.

Wade : 26 / 5 / 4apg on 51%FG / 55%TS / 111ortg / 96drtg

Compared to...

Kobe : 30 / 5 / 4apg on 44%FG / 52%TS / 109ortg / 112drtg

Pretty similar to regular season numbers I'd say.
Kobe scores on slightly higher volume while Wade is far more efficient.
Wade is elite defensively while Kobe is a liability.

Again Wade was clearly the better player.

soundjunkies2
10-20-2012, 12:56 AM
The SG position is so much weaker compared to the PG position.

seikou8
10-20-2012, 12:57 AM
:laugh2:isnt funny mostly lakers fans think kobe should above wade

amos1er
10-20-2012, 01:24 AM
:laugh2:isnt funny mostly lakers fans think kobe should above wade

Ironically I could argue the same point about Heat fans. :rolleyes:

Ebbs
10-20-2012, 01:26 AM
Ironically I could argue the same point about Heat fans. :rolleyes:

What does Megan Fox have to do with the Lakers?

amos1er
10-20-2012, 01:38 AM
Silly post.
Kobe played 8-9 more games then Wade... wow.

He scored slightly more (ppg / volume) while Wade was far more efficient and consistent.

Kobe was a mediocre/poor defender while Wade was one of the best wing defenders in the league.

Posting their h2h playoff numbers is unfair since Wade's sample size is much larger.

Comparing their numbers through 2 rounds (equal sample size) paints a more accurate picture.

Wade : 26 / 5 / 4apg on 51%FG / 55%TS / 111ortg / 96drtg

Compared to...

Kobe : 30 / 5 / 4apg on 44%FG / 52%TS / 109ortg / 112drtg

Pretty similar to regular season numbers I'd say.
Kobe scores on slightly higher volume while Wade is far more efficient.
Wade is elite defensively while Kobe is a liability.

Again Wade was clearly the better player.


Funny how you claim the playoff comparison unfair due to sample size and then chose a random set of games to narrow the sample size to stats that favor your argument. It doesn't work that way. Based on your logic, I could retort by taking the two rounds that most benefit my argument of the four Wade played in and compare them to the two rounds Kobe played in. Than give you a similar set of stats that favor Kobe. Of course I would not do this because I know how silly it is to even entertain. Just wanted to explain that one to you.

BTW, my reasoning was mostly based on regular season seeing as how difficult it is to compare their playoff performances based on the fact that their is a difference in the sample size of games played.

As far as regular season, Kobe was first team All NBA which means that the experts voted him to be among the two best guards in the league. CP3 was the other, meaning that Kobe was the voted the best shooting guard by people far more credible than FOX Sports. Don't know how you can claim that Wade was a better defender considering Kobe made the All-defensive second team. Once again, voted on by experts.

As far as the 3% differences in their TS% during the regular season, that only equates to less than one point scored when doing the math. Not nearly enough to account for the 5 point difference in their ppg. Their assists are the same, and Kobe's rebounding per game is higher. The icing on the cake is the fact that Kobe only missed 11% of the regular season, compared to Wade who missed 26%. Playing in more games means doing more to help your team win and therefore should weight heavily against someone who sits out games to lick their wounds on the sidelines. Kobe had plenty of little ailments, he just plays through them for the good of the team. He could easily sit out when he is not feeling 100% so that when he does play he puts up better stats. Obviously this proves Kobe puts the team over individual stats. Especially when he could have gone for the scoring title, but chose to instead sit out the last game so he could be at his best for the playoffs because the Lakers seeding was already set.

Not to mention, Kobe was 4th in MVP voting compared to Wade who finished 11th.

amos1er
10-20-2012, 01:40 AM
What does Megan Fox have to do with the Lakers?

Kobe likes white girls??? I don't know???

They just probably needed any girl they could find to superimpose over Wonder Woman. Since their are no girls on the Lakers, they went with Megan Fox. Can't really argue with that logic. lol

MagicBucsSox
10-20-2012, 01:49 AM
James harden is not a better player than iggy

naps
10-20-2012, 01:51 AM
I think Kobe deserves that top spot considering hwo strong a season he had last year, and considering how weak a season (relatively speaking of course) Wade had.

I'd make a few changes, but this list isn't too crazy.

Except Wade had a better season. Oh you may be one of those that go by per game stats which mean little to nothing...

PurpleJesus
10-20-2012, 01:52 AM
Literally no problems with the rankings...possibly put Iggy over Joe, but its extremely debatable.

amos1er
10-20-2012, 01:55 AM
Except Wade had a better season. Oh you may be one of those that go by per game stats which mean little to nothing...

How do you figure that Wade had a better season based on factors other than per game stats?

Kobe was a first team All NBA, second team All NBA defenisve, and 4th in MVP voting compared to Wade who was 3rd team All NBA, didn't make an All defensive team and who came in 11th in MVP voting.

Andrew32
10-20-2012, 02:01 AM
How do you figure that Wade had a better season based on factors other than per game stats?

Kobe was a first team All NBA, second team All NBA defenisve, and 4th in MVP voting compared to Wade who was 3rd team All NBA, didn't make an All defensive team and who came in 11th in MVP voting.
Great so Kobe won some awards and got some votes he didn't deserve.
It's happened before and it'll happen again.

All-NBA teams and the MVP award is voted for by the media not "experts" so they can't be taken seriously at all.
Unless you're one of those people that use SI / ESPN articles as support for your opinions.

People in the media have their own agendas, biases and their ability to and the criteria they use to accurately judge a players value / impact is unknown to the the public.

So please... all media based awards can be taken with a grain of salt.
In the end they are just opinion pieces of a few individuals. They aren't facts.

Dade County
10-20-2012, 02:04 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-shooting-guards-Dwyane-Wade-Kobe-Bryant-James-Harden-101412#tab=photo-title=Dwyane+Wade%252C+Miami+Heat&photo=31366508

1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. Harden
4. Joe Johnson
5. Iggy
6. Manu
7. E. Gordon
8. M. Ellis
9. P. George
10. Ray Allen/Tony Allen

unlike PSD voters/posters... They have Wade where he belongs at #1...

OKC is too loaded, KD, Wild Wild West & Harden.. I mean those guys at their position, are top 5.

Harden will be the 2nd best sg soon, and Wild Wild West is just going to get better as a combo guard.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-20-2012, 02:08 AM
Joe Johnson > Dwyane Wade

amos1er
10-20-2012, 02:08 AM
Great so Kobe won some awards and got some votes he didn't deserve.
It's happened before and it'll happen again.

Who says he didn't deserve them? You? lol


All-NBA teams and the MVP award is voted for by the media not "experts" so they can't be taken seriously at all.

So I am supposed to believe that Fox Sports is to be taken more seriously than the media who votes for the MVP. How so?


People in the media have their own agendas, biases and their ability to and the criteria they use to accurately judge a players value / impact is unknown to the the public.

So you are saying that the media has their own agendas and I supposed to believe that you don't?


So please... all media based awards can be taken with a grain of salt.

Same as your posts.

amos1er
10-20-2012, 02:11 AM
unlike PSD voters/posters... They have Wade where he belongs at #1...

OKC is too loaded, KD, Wild Wild West & Harden.. I mean those guys at their position, are top 5.

Harden will be the 2nd best sg soon, and Wild Wild West is just going to get better as a combo guard.

Too bad that it wasn't only the PSD voters who felt that Kobe should be ranked higher than Wade. So did the people who vote for the All-NBA teams, MVP, and ESPN. Why is Fox Sports all of the sudden more credible than them? Your precious Hollinger works for ESPN. Now that he isn't agreeing with you, his opinion is all of the sudden less credible than FOX Sports?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-20-2012, 02:13 AM
Too bad that it wasn't only the PSD voters who felt that Kobe should be ranked higher than Wade. So did the people who vote for the All-NBA teams, MVP, and ESPN. Why is Fox Sports all of the sudden more credible than them? Your precious Hollinger works for ESPN. Now that he isn't agreeing with you, his opinion is all of the sudden less credible than FOX News?

amos1er, you just owned that guy. :laugh2:

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-20-2012, 02:13 AM
Joe Johnson > Kobe Bryant

naps
10-20-2012, 02:14 AM
I get that Kobe is older and doesn't have the athleticism he once had but he is clear cut STILL number 1. Hate him or Love him. I actually think its absurd to put Wade above him.

:laugh2:

Hawkeye15
10-20-2012, 02:15 AM
Good to see Manu was not overrated like he usually is. I always get a kick out of people still thinking he is the 3rd best SG.

Personally I'd take JJ over Harden. Much better defender and is a capable passer. Harden is much less of a #1 option than JJ is (neither are true #1 options BTW).

well, some of us like our so called elite SG's to not completely disappear when the playoffs start. I mean, maybe that is just me...

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-20-2012, 02:16 AM
I vote for Hawkeye15 as the best SG in the league.

**** everyone else.

Andrew32
10-20-2012, 02:17 AM
Why is Fox Sports all of the sudden more credible than them?

They don't however their views line up with most plain / advanced metrics.
The metrics we have all point to Wade being a more effective and valuable player on both ends of the floor.

Unlike "people" and "the eye test" those stats are unbiased.

Hawkeye15
10-20-2012, 02:17 AM
I vote for Hawkeye15 as the best SG in the league.

**** everyone else.

I love to shoot man. I think I could do it!

seikou8
10-20-2012, 02:20 AM
i think psd can beat the bobcats :laugh2::laugh2:

naps
10-20-2012, 02:21 AM
How do you figure that Wade had a better season based on factors other than per game stats?

Kobe was a first team All NBA, second team All NBA defenisve, and 4th in MVP voting compared to Wade who was 3rd team All NBA, didn't make an All defensive team and who came in 11th in MVP voting.


Wade was the CLEAR better player offensively and defensively. Awards are popularity prizes.


How is 23 / 5 / 5 on 50% shooting in 33mpg + elite defense horrible?

Wade was clearly a FAR better player then Kobe in the 2012 regular season when he was on the floor.

This is pretty much undebatable and to prove my point all you have to do is compare their PER ratings.

Wade was #3 in the league with a 26.3 rating.
Kobe was not even in the Top #10 and his rating was like 19.5 or something.

If you want to say Kobe "contributed more" in the regular season because he played 9 more games and played 5-6 more mpg I guess thats an argument but its pretty weak and it doesn't change the fact that Wade was clearly the better player.

In the playoffs Wade contributed far more then Kobe did and consistently dominated and played well down the stretch of games while Kobe consistently choked down the stretch of games.

Here are their playoff numbers through 2 rounds.

Wade : 26 / 5 / 4apg on 51%FG / 55%TS / 111ortg / 96drtg

Compared to...

Kobe : 30 / 5 / 4apg on 44%FG / 52%TS / 109ortg / 112drtg

So really... who has the edge offensively?
Kobe slightly higher volume while Wade blows him away in efficiency.

Defensively Wade was amazing / elite while Kobe was a liability / terrible.

It is absurd to think Kobe was better in the playoffs.

Thanks to Andrew for this^ post. Saved my time.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-20-2012, 02:21 AM
I love to shoot man. I think I could do it!

What's your TS%? :laugh2:

amos1er
10-20-2012, 02:22 AM
They don't however their views line up with most plain / advanced metrics.
The metrics we have all point to Wade being a more effective and valuable player on both ends of the floor.

Unlike "people" and "the eye test" those stats are unbiased.

Where are these "metric's" you speak of? Can you actually explain why these particular "metrics" are better than the ones used by other media outlets? How do you know that the "metrics" they use aren't as effective as the ones the people who vote on MVP, All NBA teams, and ESPN use? Doesn't Hollinger use the most advance metrics according to most of you? You do realize that he works for ESPN, votes for the MVP, and the All NBA teams right?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-20-2012, 02:22 AM
i think psd can beat the bobcats :laugh2::laugh2:

seikou8, let's you, me, Hawkeye, Chronz and JordanBulls form a starting 5.


We can beat the Bobcats with 40 just by that lineup.

amos1er
10-20-2012, 02:25 AM
Wade was the CLEAR better player offensively and defensively. Awards are popularity prizes.

By that logic, the 3 MVP's Lebron won must be popularity prizes. :rolleyes:




Thanks to Andrew for this^ post. Saved my time.


So now your hanging your hat on Andrew's argument. :facepalm:

seikou8
10-20-2012, 02:27 AM
seikou8, let's you, me, Hawkeye, Chronz and JordanBulls form a starting 5.


We can beat the Bobcats with 40 just by that lineup.

yup and andrew32 could be like our mascot ;)

amos1er
10-20-2012, 02:29 AM
amos1er, you just owned that guy. :laugh2:

:win:

Hawkeye15
10-20-2012, 02:30 AM
What's your TS%? :laugh2:

like 78%. But, I refuse to pass, play defense, or rebound. I am so one dimensional....

Hawkeye15
10-20-2012, 02:32 AM
seikou8, let's you, me, Hawkeye, Chronz and JordanBulls form a starting 5.


We can beat the Bobcats with 40 just by that lineup.

we would need HCA dude, or we are screwed.

amos1er
10-20-2012, 02:34 AM
like 78%. But, I refuse to pass, play defense, or rebound. I am so one dimensional....

Essentially you are like Ray Allen???

Hawkeye15
10-20-2012, 02:35 AM
Essentially you are like Ray Allen???

Exactly. But 6 inches shorter, and way less awesome haha

Andrew32
10-20-2012, 02:37 AM
yup and andrew32 could be like our mascot ;)

Only if its a cool mascot like a wolf or something.

amos1er
10-20-2012, 02:38 AM
Exactly. But 6 inches shorter, and way less awesome haha

Earl Boykins???

Hawkeye15
10-20-2012, 02:38 AM
Only if its a cool mascot like a wolf or something.

a Timber wolf.......:p

seikou8
10-20-2012, 02:39 AM
Only if its a cool mascot like a wolf or something.

thought you would be mad about the joke but yeah anything you want

DanG
10-20-2012, 02:43 AM
Actually they'd be alot worse.

D-Wade is a big reason why Miami is such a great defensive team.
He is one of the best perimeter defenders in the game and the combined help defense of him and Lebron are why they can frustrate opposing teams so well at times.

Replace him with Kobe and that defense turns to crap.

Offensively Wade is also more efficient/consistent and less ball dominant.
So I don't see how Kobe would improve them offensively.

Wade dissapeared against the Pacers?
He had only one really bad game in that series (G3) outside of that he was mostly spectacular.

G1 + G2 = 27 / 3 / 4apg / 1.5bpg.
G4 - G7 = 33 / 7 / 4apg on 62% shooting.

Without Wade they don't get past Indiana let alone Boston.

Do you know that when you are playing alongside the best player in the world who can get you open layups your efficiency ratings will go up by a mile?

:eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
10-20-2012, 02:43 AM
Earl Boykins???

haha, not that small dude. Right.in.the.middle.

seikou8
10-20-2012, 02:45 AM
Do you know that when you are playing alongside the best player in the world who can get you open layups your efficiency ratings will go up by a mile?

:eyebrow:

wade has always been efficient lebron or not but it close between him and kobe

Andrew32
10-20-2012, 02:52 AM
Do you know that when you are playing alongside the best player in the world who can get you open layups your efficiency ratings will go up by a mile?

:eyebrow:
I doubt Wade gets more then a bucket or two nightly off of straight Lebron feeds and Lebron doesn't attract that much attention off the ball since he isn't that great of a shooter.

Wade has always been a very efficient player.
Yes playing next to good talent usually helps efficiency but in this case I doubt it significantly effected Wade's.

Kobe also had the #2 C and a Top 5 PF so it isn't like he was surrounded by scrubs.

naps
10-20-2012, 02:54 AM
By that logic, the 3 MVP's Lebron won must be popularity prizes. :rolleyes:

Ofcourse not all of them. A lot of awards have been controversial and were simply based on popularity. For example, Kobe being on defensive first team last 4/5 years have been a joke.
Another example of inconsistency: Tyson Chandler didn't get in the defensive first team even the he was voted as the best defensive player in the league. So yeah so much for awards.



So now your hanging your hat on Andrew's argument. :facepalm:

Yes, because he is actually touching the subject and proving his statement by comparing the seasons both Kobe and Wade had unlike you who is just using emoticons and awards. I am curious to know why you are not even bothering to touch the actual performances Kobe and Wade staged last season. May be you already know you can't counter it and it's Wade who is clearly the superior player on BOTH ends of the floor. It's been like that since 2008-09.

naps
10-20-2012, 02:58 AM
Do you know that when you are playing alongside the best player in the world who can get you open layups your efficiency ratings will go up by a mile?

:eyebrow:

Wade has always been the far more efficient player with or without LeBron. He was supremely efficient when Beasley was his second best player for god's sake during those years when he played with bunch of scrubs. So this argument doesn't hold any water.

DanG
10-20-2012, 03:02 AM
I doubt Wade gets more then a bucket or two nightly off of straight Lebron feeds and Lebron doesn't attract that much attention off the ball since he isn't that great of a shooter.

Wade has always been a very efficient player.
Yes playing next to good talent usually helps efficiency but in this case I doubt it significantly effected Wade's.

Kobe also had the #2 C and a Top 5 PF so it isn't like he was surrounded by scrubs.

I doubt a current Wade can shoot 48-49% without Bron but that's just my opinion.

Bynum and Gasol are post-up guys so they will not run those fast breaks with you.

I don't have a problem at all with Wade being first. I just don't think HEAT would be alot worse when you switch Kobe and Wade.

Dade County
10-20-2012, 01:00 PM
Too bad that it wasn't only the PSD voters who felt that Kobe should be ranked higher than Wade. So did the people who vote for the All-NBA teams, MVP, and ESPN. Why is Fox Sports all of the sudden more credible than them? Your precious Hollinger works for ESPN. Now that he isn't agreeing with you, his opinion is all of the sudden less credible than FOX Sports?



amos1er, you just owned that guy. :laugh2:

Kobe loyalist run rampant through out the media too. Nice try. Wade is the better player, even though this is just my opinion, like how Kobe loyalist feel that Kobe is a top 4 player at this point of his career.

To each their own.

fishfan79
10-20-2012, 01:02 PM
I would flip Kobe and Wade still. Gordon and Joe Johnson should flip too.

MagicBucsSox
10-20-2012, 01:13 PM
Harden over iggy is an abomination, disgraceful.

xxplayerxx23
10-20-2012, 01:15 PM
Lol How do you figure^ \

Ironman5219
10-20-2012, 01:16 PM
Kobe over wade, that one isn't even close...........

xxplayerxx23
10-20-2012, 01:16 PM
Kobe was very inneficent and shot the ball a ton last year. I guess we will see what happens this year, but Id take Wade over Kobe at this point.

xxplayerxx23
10-20-2012, 01:17 PM
Ofcourse, all LA fans are going to say Kobe>Wade, Every heat fan is going to say Wade>Kobe, and most knowledgeable posters that don't like either team are going to say Wade>Kobe.

MagicBucsSox
10-20-2012, 01:21 PM
Lol How do you figure^ \

Because basketball is about more than scoring. That's all Harden can do over iggy. It's sad as a top 2 perimeter defender gets no respect and undervalued over a guy who had a complete collapse in the finals. My god he couldn't even defend.

beasted86
10-20-2012, 01:39 PM
well, some of us like our so called elite SG's to not completely disappear when the playoffs start. I mean, maybe that is just me...

There are only 2 elite SGs in the NBA. Elite IMO means #1 option caliber. Manu, JJ, Harden, etc... are not #1 options at all. If they are your number 1 option you aren't getting past the 2nd round.

But on the note of disappearing in the playoffs, Manu shrunk in most of the 2012 playoffs. He had like 4 good games to like 6 bad ones.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-20-2012, 01:42 PM
I don't even know why you guys are bickering about Kobe vs Wade. They're both great, just give both guys the respect and dues. Who cares if Wade > Kobe or Kobe > Wade. It really doesn't matter.

You guys should be talking about 3-10.

xxplayerxx23
10-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Because basketball is about more than scoring. That's all Harden can do over iggy. It's sad as a top 2 perimeter defender gets no respect and undervalued over a guy who had a complete collapse in the finals. My god he couldn't even defend.

1. Harden is a scoring machine, he scores efficently and doesn't need the ball in his hands to do it.
2. Harden is an above average defender.
3. Harden is a great passer, and runs the point very well.
4. Not saying he is for sure better then Iggy but you are overplaying it. Harden has one bad series and you're ready to trash him, he is a stud.

justinnum1
10-20-2012, 02:20 PM
No surprise here.

MagicBucsSox
10-20-2012, 02:23 PM
1. Harden is a scoring machine, he scores efficently and doesn't need the ball in his hands to do it.
2. Harden is an above average defender.
3. Harden is a great passer, and runs the point very well.
4. Not saying he is for sure better then Iggy but you are overplaying it. Harden has one bad series and you're ready to trash him, he is a stud.

Can't respect it until he's the vocal point on a team. Sorry I just can't. Not enough to put him over iggy

xxplayerxx23
10-20-2012, 02:31 PM
Can't respect it until he's the vocal point on a team. Sorry I just can't. Not enough to put him over iggy

That's np, but what has Iggy done as the vocal point? He is an amazing lock down defender but nothing speical as in carrying a team.

MagicBucsSox
10-20-2012, 02:49 PM
That's np, but what has Iggy done as the vocal point? He is an amazing lock down defender but nothing speical as in carrying a team.

Iggy has never played with another Uber talent guy. He's not a #1 guy but he does more than Harden. He's Gonna snap in denver with actual talent

SwaggaIke
10-20-2012, 03:27 PM
It's funny that people don't realize that Wade's game is already evolving. He'll never average 26 ppg again. Those days are over as Miami continues to pursue championships. What he CAN & HAS done is increase his percentages. He's already established himself (to those who pay attention) as a pretty damn good post player. He needs to get his mid range jumper back together, but there's no denying the evolution in his game. He'll be a great P&R player until the day he can't play again & as long as Riley is around he'll always be surrounded by quality talent. I have a feeling Wade will have the most efficient seasons of his career (after 08-09) in these next two years.

mrblisterdundee
10-20-2012, 03:36 PM
Also if Harden is this good, he should say something to coach. If he stays in this role and excepts it he lacks confidence. Players that know they are among the best dont come off the bench.

Are you now trying to argue that Joe Johnson is better than Harden because of their psyches? That's a pretty desperate avenue.

KnickaBocka.44
10-20-2012, 04:08 PM
Can't respect it until he's the vocal point on a team. Sorry I just can't. Not enough to put him over iggy


Iggy has never played with another Uber talent guy. He's not a #1 guy but he does more than Harden. He's Gonna snap in denver with actual talent

These two comments kind of contradict eachother. You say that you don't buy Harden until he is the FOCAL point of a gameplan, but then use the fact that Igoudala has never had other talent around him in his support. If Igoudala had Westbrook or Durant or both, he wouldn't be the focal point either, leaving him in the same situation as Harden.

Also, Igoudala is going to be in the same kind of situation now in Denver without an "uber-talent" guy so I'm not sure why you think there will be a huge difference in his play.

seikou8
10-21-2012, 12:42 AM
healthy iman will make this list someday

Losoway
10-21-2012, 12:58 AM
harden before joe johnson?

wow

Losoway
10-21-2012, 12:58 AM
harden complete froze in the playoffs

he should not be number 3

seikou8
10-21-2012, 12:59 AM
harden complete froze in the playoffs

he should not be number 3

:facepalm:

soundjunkies2
10-21-2012, 01:02 AM
harden complete froze in the playoffs

he should not be number 3

He was heads and shoulders above Joe Johnson in the playoffs last season.

LA_Raiders
10-21-2012, 01:39 AM
lol Wade #1...

albertajaysfan
10-21-2012, 01:41 AM
Its nice to know tony allen and monte ellis are better than Stepten Curry

Stephen Curry is considered a point guard. So yes Monta Ellis and Tony Allen are better shooting guards.

Daunter
10-21-2012, 01:37 PM
Id go with:

1.Kobe
2.Wade
3.Iggy
4.Harden
5.Manu
6.Johnson
7.Ellis
8.Gordon
9.George
10.Allen/Martin

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-21-2012, 01:39 PM
harden complete froze in the playoffs

he should not be number 3

And Joe Johnson scores less than 1 pt per $1M that he makes, what's your point?

Meaze_Gibson
10-21-2012, 08:03 PM
Yeah it Gotta Be:
Kobe
Wade
Iggy
Johnson

Then Harden/Ellis/Manu/Martin (interchangeable)

Gordon/Derozan

then comes George, Allen, Terry etc

Hawkeye15
10-22-2012, 01:49 AM
There are only 2 elite SGs in the NBA. Elite IMO means #1 option caliber. Manu, JJ, Harden, etc... are not #1 options at all. If they are your number 1 option you aren't getting past the 2nd round.

But on the note of disappearing in the playoffs, Manu shrunk in most of the 2012 playoffs. He had like 4 good games to like 6 bad ones.

1. agree

2. JJ continually does it. He doesn't belong in the "elite" convo.

Hawkeye15
10-22-2012, 01:51 AM
Serious question. Do people really understand how horrible Joe Johnson becomes when the playoffs start?

Baller1
10-22-2012, 01:56 AM
Serious question. Do people really understand how horrible Joe Johnson becomes when the playoffs start?

Forget JJ! Harden froze up in the Finals, Hawk! Excuse the fact that he's 22, had his first big stage experience, and had a historic regular season... He froze for a whole series!

Hawkeye15
10-22-2012, 02:06 AM
Forget JJ! Harden froze up in the Finals, Hawk! Excuse the fact that he's 22, had his first big stage experience, and had a historic regular season... He froze for a whole series!

Facetious, I get it. But if we put Harden's and Johnson's playoffs numbers next to each other, its a laugh-fest.

Johnson literally becomes a below average NBA player once the playoffs start. I have honestly, in all my years watching/studying basketball, never seen such a dramatic fall off from being an all star caliber player to being a completely undependable player.

NBA-GMaster
10-22-2012, 06:57 AM
Mine would be:
1. Wade
2. Bryant
3. Harden
4. Ginobili
5. Iguodala
6. Johnson
7. Ellis
8. Gordon
9. George
10. Martin

Six-8-TheWizard
10-22-2012, 07:43 AM
Flip Kobe and Wade

Flip JJ and Iggy

Move Manu Up to #3

Baller1
10-22-2012, 02:07 PM
Facetious, I get it. But if we put Harden's and Johnson's playoffs numbers next to each other, its a laugh-fest.

Johnson literally becomes a below average NBA player once the playoffs start. I have honestly, in all my years watching/studying basketball, never seen such a dramatic fall off from being an all star caliber player to being a completely undependable player.

I'm going to be completely honest, I wasn't aware of this at all. Is it really that bad?

Fnom11
10-22-2012, 02:14 PM
A lot of people disrespecting Wade. I hope he can prove some of you guys wrong

iDefend10
10-22-2012, 02:33 PM
Should JJ even be on the list? I mean I dunno man I've never really cared for JJ at all. He's just a volume chucker to me. On top of that he completely disappears when it counts.

JerseysFinest
10-22-2012, 02:43 PM
Serious question. Do people really understand how horrible Joe Johnson becomes when the playoffs start?

Not saying you're wrong, but can we attribute that to Johnson being the focal point of the offense and essentially having to carry his Hawks teams throughout the playoffs? Especially in Mike Woodson's heavy isolation offense, he was expected to perform at a high level when in reality he's more of a complementary player. I'm interested to see how he plays this year in the postseason (assuming the Nets make the postseason) next to a guy who is more of a number one option in Deron Williams.

bluefire7002
10-22-2012, 03:04 PM
Not saying you're wrong, but can we attribute that to Johnson being the focal point of the offense and essentially having to carry his Hawks teams throughout the playoffs? Especially in Mike Woodson's heavy isolation offense, he was expected to perform at a high level when in reality he's more of a complementary player. I'm interested to see how he plays this year in the postseason (assuming the Nets make the postseason) next to a guy who is more of a number one option in Deron Williams.

He should definitely play better this year with him not drawing as much attention, having Deron Williams. That's the point hawkeye is trying to make though... JJ hasn't been able to prove it in the playoffs yet... It can all change this year (im not saying it won't). I definitely would take Iggy over him though.

Supreme LA
10-22-2012, 03:10 PM
A lot of people disrespecting Wade. I hope he can prove some of you guys wrong

More like Heat fans and Fox disrespecting Kobe by having Wade above him. Wade isn't being disrespected by being #2. That's really where he belongs.

Supreme LA
10-22-2012, 03:15 PM
Ofcourse, all LA fans are going to say Kobe>Wade, Every heat fan is going to say Wade>Kobe, and most knowledgeable posters that don't like either team are going to say Wade>Kobe.

That's funny because it seems to be the other way around this far with an overwhelming amount of knowledgable posters who aren't fans of either teams saying Kobe>Wade :eyebrow:

Bravo95
10-22-2012, 03:15 PM
Facetious, I get it. But if we put Harden's and Johnson's playoffs numbers next to each other, its a laugh-fest.

Johnson literally becomes a below average NBA player once the playoffs start. I have honestly, in all my years watching/studying basketball, never seen such a dramatic fall off from being an all star caliber player to being a completely undependable player.

I'm going to be completely honest, I wasn't aware of this at all. Is it really that bad?
Yes.

Granted, the Hawks went against some tough defenses (Celtics 2X, Lebron's Cavs, Bulls, etc) in that five year run, but Joe rarely fought through it. He allowed those teams to break his will. Smith and Horford also had tough matchups against those teams/frontcourts, but at least they battled until the end.

Just look at last season's Hawks-Celtics series: Al came back earlier than recommended after being out for the entire season and Josh sustained a knee injury that forced him to miss a game when he probably should have stayed out longer. Both came back late in the series and played well enough to keep the Hawks in it until they were finally knocked out. No one remembers anything significant Joe did in that series.

xxplayerxx23
10-22-2012, 03:29 PM
That's funny because it seems to be the other way around this far with an overwhelming amount of knowledgable posters who aren't fans of either teams saying Kobe>Wade :eyebrow:


Really where? Go get them, LA fans will vote for Kobe Heat fans will vote Wade and Knowledgeable fans will say wade.

Supreme LA
10-22-2012, 03:31 PM
Really where? Go get them, LA fans will vote for Kobe Heat fans will vote Wade and Knowledgeable fans will say wade.

Go get them? Go back and read all the posts. It's there on every page of this thread lazy guy.

That is unless you consider yourself to be the only knowledgable fan lol.

Baller1
10-22-2012, 03:31 PM
More like Heat fans and Fox disrespecting Kobe by having Wade above him. Wade isn't being disrespected by being #2. That's really where he belongs.

Wrong. Just, blatantly wrong.

Baller1
10-22-2012, 03:32 PM
Yes.

Granted, the Hawks went against some tough defenses (Celtics 2X, Lebron's Cavs, Bulls, etc) in that five year run, but Joe rarely fought through it. He allowed those teams to break his will. Smith and Horford also had tough matchups against those teams/frontcourts, but at least they battled until the end.

Just look at last season's Hawks-Celtics series: Al came back earlier than recommended after being out for the entire season and Josh sustained a knee injury that forced him to miss a game when he probably should have stayed out longer. Both came back late the series and played well enough to keep the Hawks in it until they were finally knocked out. No one remembers anything significant Joe did in that series.

Hmm... Crazy. I wonder why I was so oblivious to this. I never realized he shrunk so much.

Supreme LA
10-22-2012, 03:33 PM
Wrong. Just, blatantly wrong.

Care to explain why?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-22-2012, 03:34 PM
NBA.com GM Survey: http://www.nba.com/news/2012-13-gm-survey/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6a


Best SG in the NBA


1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers -- 66.7%
2. Dwyane Wade, Miami -- 23.3%
Also receiving votes: Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City; Manu Ginobili, San Antonio; James Harden, Oklahoma City


Last yr: Kobe Bryant 55.6%



Kobe with an 11% improvement from last yr.


You're Welcome.

Supreme LA
10-22-2012, 03:39 PM
NBA.com GM Survey: http://www.nba.com/news/2012-13-gm-survey/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6a


Best SG in the NBA


1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers -- 66.7%
2. Dwyane Wade, Miami -- 23.3%
Also receiving votes: Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City; Manu Ginobili, San Antonio; James Harden, Oklahoma City


Last yr: Kobe Bryant 55.6%



Kobe with an 11% improvement from last yr.


You're Welcome.

I'm sure you won't convince xxplayerxx23 because he probably considers himself to e more knowledgable than the GM's as well.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-22-2012, 03:45 PM
I'm sure you won't convince xxplayerxx23 because he probably considers himself to e more knowledgable than the GM's as well.

A 43% gap between the two, and an 11% improvement of the #1 guy from last yr.

I mean, I don't know how you can overlook those stats.


I mean, when people say LeBron is better than Kobe and Kobe had Shaq and Kobe is overrated and blah blah blah, don't those posters always have a hard-on and use statistic after statistic after statistic after statistic with PER, Win Shares, TS%, blah blah blah blah.


Well, this 43% gap and 11% improvement from last yr are also statistics. So they could take that to the bank!

xxplayerxx23
10-22-2012, 03:47 PM
Go get them? Go back and read all the posts. It's there on every page of this thread lazy guy.

That is unless you consider yourself to be the only knowledgable fan lol.

Are you kidding, If I were to start a thread,
La fans vote here
Heat fans vote here
Other fans vote here. Wade>Kobe.

Supreme LA
10-22-2012, 03:52 PM
Are you kidding, If I were to start a thread,
La fans vote here
Heat fans vote here
Other fans vote here. Wade>Kobe.

DO IT! I'm sure it would be the other way around. Unless you're too lazy to do that also :eyebrow:

SugeKnight
10-22-2012, 03:57 PM
Wade
Kobe
Iggy
Manu
Monta
Harden
Gordon
Johnson
PG
Klay

JerseysFinest
10-22-2012, 03:58 PM
He should definitely play better this year with him not drawing as much attention, having Deron Williams. That's the point hawkeye is trying to make though... JJ hasn't been able to prove it in the playoffs yet... It can all change this year (im not saying it won't). I definitely would take Iggy over him though.

I interpreted his point as Joe Johnson continues to struggle in the postseason, and that'll never change, therefore he should not be ranked as high as he is. My point is I feel we should see how he plays as a second option behind Deron Williams.

JerseysFinest
10-22-2012, 03:59 PM
Wade
Kobe
Iggy
Manu
Monta
Harden
Gordon
Johnson
PG
Klay
Monta Ellis, Eric Gordon, and Manu Ginobli aren't better than Johnson imo. Definitely not Ellis, but Ginobli could be debated.

Hawkeye15
10-22-2012, 04:00 PM
Not saying you're wrong, but can we attribute that to Johnson being the focal point of the offense and essentially having to carry his Hawks teams throughout the playoffs? Especially in Mike Woodson's heavy isolation offense, he was expected to perform at a high level when in reality he's more of a complementary player. I'm interested to see how he plays this year in the postseason (assuming the Nets make the postseason) next to a guy who is more of a number one option in Deron Williams.

As I have stated, the ONLY time he didn't regress big time, was when he was in Phoenix, so having Deron there may help. That being said, it should say something about how elite of a SG Johnson is, if when asked to create shots off isolation, he flounders. Elite SG's need to be able to create off iso's. I can't believe Johnson is looked at as a superstar SG, when he is exactly what you said- a complimentary player who struggles in isolation ball.

I also question his heart. Watched him just melt down against Orlando, and Boston twice. He just seems to not want to toughen up and fight back.

JerseysFinest
10-22-2012, 04:03 PM
As I have stated, the ONLY time he didn't regress big time, was when he was in Phoenix, so having Deron there may help. That being said, it should say something about how elite of a SG Johnson is, if when asked to create shots off isolation, he flounders. Elite SG's need to be able to create off iso's. I can't believe Johnson is looked at as a superstar SG, when he is exactly what you said- a complimentary player who struggles in isolation ball.

I think one of the major reasons people may have labelled him as an elite shooting guard is the amount of money he's being paid. Or because he was looked at as "the man" in Atlanta. Otherwise, I never really understood why. Very excited to see him and D-Will though.

TheIlladelph16
10-22-2012, 04:04 PM
A 43% gap between the two, and an 11% improvement of the #1 guy from last yr.

I mean, I don't know how you can overlook those stats.


I mean, when people say LeBron is better than Kobe and Kobe had Shaq and Kobe is overrated and blah blah blah, don't those posters always have a hard-on and use statistic after statistic after statistic after statistic with PER, Win Shares, TS%, blah blah blah blah.


Well, this 43% gap and 11% improvement from last yr are also statistics. So they could take that to the bank!

I understand the point your trying to make here, but you can't honestly be considering a poll result as a "statistic". Yes, its a statistic in that it is a mathematical formula giving you the percentage of GMs who voted for each, but that doesn't really dictate who is better on the court.

In reality, it doesn't really matter who is 1 and 2 between them. Personally I would take Wade, but I can see why some would still prefer Kobe. How about we compromise and just call it 1a and 1b haha

xxplayerxx23
10-22-2012, 04:10 PM
LA here you go
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=773183

amos1er
10-22-2012, 04:11 PM
DO IT! I'm sure it would be the other way around. Unless you're too lazy to do that also :eyebrow:

I love how he conveniently ignored the GM survey and just went on to regurgitate the same bs all over again even after you called him out twice to provide one single post from a "knowledgeable poster" who is non-Laker/Miami fan.

Sounds to me like someone got their hand caught in the cookie jar. Always the same typical hater bs around here. They run their mouth until someone calls them out by asking them to actually provide proof to back up their outlandish claims. Then, more often than not, they run and hide and act like nothing ever happened.

Hawkeye15
10-22-2012, 04:13 PM
I think one of the major reasons people may have labelled him as an elite shooting guard is the amount of money he's being paid. Or because he was looked at as "the man" in Atlanta. Otherwise, I never really understood why. Very excited to see him and D-Will though.

meh, never cared about his deal, though I was sorta shocked when he got it, though I did understand why to some degree. Atlanta feared losing him in free agency, and threw a monster deal at him.

The reason why I get on Johnson so much, is his 6 all star selections, and all NBA team selection, coupled with so many in the media and fanbase ranking him an elite SG, when I really don't consider him elite at all. He is a 3rd option on a really good team at best imo.

But yes, with Deron, a distributing PG that can take the ball out of Johnson's hands and instead let him become more of a shooter, the role I think he should have, you will get your 17 a night out of Johnson. Will he ever be worth that money? Oh god no, but I think you and I can list 50 players that aren't worth their deal haha.

xxplayerxx23
10-22-2012, 04:14 PM
I love how he conveniently ignored the GM survey and just went on to regurgitate the same bs all over again even after you called him out twice to provide one single post from a "knowledgeable poster" who is non-Laker/Miami fan.

Sounds to me like someone got their hand caught in the cookie jar. Always the same typical hater bs around here. They run their mouth until someone calls them out by asking them to actually provide proof to back up their outlandish claims. Then, more often than not, they run and hide and act like nothing ever happened.


:laugh: Where did I go? I put the poll up.

Hawkeye15
10-22-2012, 04:15 PM
Not to nitpick, but considering how many terrible teams and average teams there are, why does anyone take the GM survey's so serious? I never have. I mean, does anyone care what David Kahn's vote was? I sure as hell don't.

Supreme LA
10-22-2012, 04:16 PM
:laugh: Where did I go? I put the poll up.

And now we can see all of your knowledgable fans.

amos1er
10-22-2012, 04:18 PM
:laugh: Where did I go? I put the poll up.

Read my first post in your thread:


Ya, this is really going to settle everything. Here in the wastelands of the NBA Comparisons Forum. Doubt we are going to get near close to the sample size necessary to validate an opinion one way or the other considering an average of 2 people are on here at any given moment. They really need to get rid of this lame Comparisons forum BS and move it all back to the main forum just like the old days.

Besides, he asked you to find one post in this thread that backed up your initial claim. You said that most of the non-Laker/Miami fans who were "knowledgeable posters" said Wade > Kobe. He then asked you to find one example in this thread. He even asked twice. You still have not responded to what he actually asked for. Instead you created some poll in the wastelands of PSD which will be viewed by all of 8 people.

How is a poll created on PSD more credible than the recent GM survey anyways? Can you please explain that one to me? Lets see if he dodges this question too.

amos1er
10-22-2012, 04:23 PM
And now we can see all of your knowledgable fans.

Ya, all 8 of them that will view his thread in the ever popular "NBA Comparison Forum". :rolleyes:

I don't understand why the recent GM results weren't enough for him to shut his trap. How on earth could a poll on the most unused part of PSD be more credible than the recent GM survey. Not to mention, Kobe was selected to the All NBA first team, 4th in MVP voting, and voted higher than Wade in the recent ESPN rankings. The reality is that the burden of proof is on him as the only source that even has Wade above Kobe is Fox Sports. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Where are these credible non-bias fans that he speaks of? The most credible non-bias fans that I know of have already spoken...

TheIlladelph16
10-22-2012, 04:23 PM
Read my first post in your thread:



Besides, he asked you to find one post in this thread that backed up your initial claim. You said that most of the non-Laker/Miami fans who were "knowledgeable posters" said Wade > Kobe. He then asked you to find one example in this thread. He even asked twice. You still have not responded to what he actually asked for. Instead you created some poll in the wastelands of PSD which will be viewed by all of 8 people.

How is a poll created on PSD more credible than the recent GM survey anyways? Can you please explain that one to me? Lets see if he dodges this question too.

See Hawkeye's quote:


Not to nitpick, but considering how many terrible teams and average teams there are, why does anyone take the GM survey's so serious? I never have. I mean, does anyone care what David Kahn's vote was? I sure as hell don't.

Some GMs are awful at evaluating talent. Not sure how a poll based on the opinions of individuals, some of whom are terrible at evaluating talent, is a clear indicator of why Kobe>Wade.... I really think both sides have solid points as to who is better, but both sides of this petty sub argument about GM polls and knowledgeable posters is ridiculous.

Baller1
10-22-2012, 04:34 PM
Care to explain why?

Besides nothing, what does Kobe do better than Wade?

Shoot more, that's about it.

amos1er
10-22-2012, 04:34 PM
See Hawkeye's quote:



Some GMs are awful at evaluating talent. Not sure how a poll based on the opinions of individuals, some of whom are terrible at evaluating talent, is a clear indicator of why Kobe>Wade.... I really think both sides have solid points as to who is better, but both sides of this petty sub argument about GM polls and knowledgeable posters is ridiculous.

I know his argument is ridiculous, thats why I countered with GM polls just to shut him up. While GM polls are not the most accurate measure in the world, they certainly hold more clout than the opinions of some random internet posters who claim to be "non bias". Opinions that he couldn't even provide upon request BTW. At least with the GM polls, we know who we are dealing with. Also, I didn't only refer to the GM polls, I also mentioned that the MVP voting results, All NBA first team voting results, and ESPN voting results all favored Kobe as well. Hell, even the PSD 2012 player ranking favored Kobe. It's very similar to the polling process used for the presidential election. They average in all the polls in order to eliminate as much bias and inconsistency as possible. Thus far, the only poll that favors Wade is Fox Sports. I'm no math expert, but I'd say Kobe has the benefit of the polls on his side in any debate, which is exactly why that poster was foolish to bring up polling as an argument. Which then led me to throw some facts his way, in relation to his opinion based argument.