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View Full Version : Is Miguel Cabrera the greatest Latino hitter of all-time?



Hulk6
10-18-2012, 05:49 PM
Who's better than this guy?

sexicano31
10-18-2012, 05:50 PM
Pujols?

fadedmario
10-18-2012, 05:51 PM
Yes. Still young too.

fadedmario
10-18-2012, 05:51 PM
Mvp.

abe_froman
10-18-2012, 05:55 PM
you mangled albert's name pretty badly.probably put many,arod over him aswell

sexicano31
10-18-2012, 05:55 PM
Pujols was a multi MVP.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-18-2012, 05:56 PM
Pujols? Agon? A-rod?

VRP723
10-18-2012, 05:57 PM
Pujols? Manny? A-Rod? Come on now

catman
10-18-2012, 05:59 PM
Clemente.

catman
10-18-2012, 06:00 PM
Rod Carew was a magician with a bat in his hand also.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 06:02 PM
Latino?


No way.

He is probably the best Venezualan hitter of all time

Abreu, Cargo, Mags, Andres Gal.

But not Latino.

He has a long way to go to catch Pujols

Greedy22
10-18-2012, 06:12 PM
not even close, my god.

cantstopthee
10-18-2012, 06:22 PM
He's well on his way, he just needs some time. Pujols has it for the time being.

NYYCowboys
10-18-2012, 06:24 PM
A-Rod.....

UPRock
10-18-2012, 06:25 PM
Clemente hands down.

Quinnsanity
10-18-2012, 06:27 PM
Pujols might be the best hitter of all time when it's all said and done, Miggy hasn't reached that level yet.

hugepatsfan
10-18-2012, 06:27 PM
lulz

ciaban
10-18-2012, 06:29 PM
and you guys aren't even mentioning the Cuban Martin Dihigo who excelled both as a pitcher and 2nd basemen in the negro leagues, and was an absolute monster.

natepro
10-18-2012, 06:31 PM
This is just getting goofy now.

Greedy22
10-18-2012, 06:46 PM
lulz


This is just getting goofy now.

Sums up my thoughts exactly.

MetsFanatic19
10-18-2012, 06:52 PM
Plain and simple.


No.

Chucky Woods
10-18-2012, 06:52 PM
Roberto Clemente

Albert Pujols













Miguel Cabrera

Buckwheat
10-18-2012, 06:55 PM
Racist.

Agreed.

rockbottom2010
10-18-2012, 07:04 PM
all time
clemente
carew
perez
aparicio

once all said and done
cabrera,pujols and cano will be top 3-5

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 07:21 PM
He's well on his way, he just needs some time. Pujols has it for the time being.

This post made me think

I mean, Pujols is 3 years older than Cabrera

So let's see what it would take for Cabrera to reach Pujols over the next three seasons in AVG/OBP/SLUG, wOBA, wRC+, and RC, as well HR and RBI

So I put their career numbers in and let's see the differences

To tie Pujols in wOBA

Over the next three seasons
Miggy has to have
1629 PA
212 NIBB
169 singles
119 doubles
2 triples
154 HR
59 SB
18 CS

To break this down on a per-season basis

543 PA (more than manageable)
71 NIBB (he only had 49 this year, but in 2011 he had 86, have to assume it's because of Prince)
56 singles (he will easily get that)
40 doubles (exactly what he had this season)
1 triple (he has had one since 2008)
51 home runs (he has never done that in a single season, in fact this was his first season hitting 40)
20 stolen bases (never done that either, hell he has never had double digits)

Or in other words, he needs to average each of the next three seasons with this slash line to mirror Pujols

.290/.542/.819


Yeah, that ain't happening. Only player to ever put up a season like that is vintage Barry Bonds in 2004 or Babe Ruth in 1920 and 1921

Much less do it for 3 seasons in a row.

Cabrera would have to improve pretty significantly to catch up to Pujols career wise by the age of 32.

And this is with Pujols massively declining 4 seasons in a row, whose to say Cabrera won't head down the same path

I mean
Cabrera's age 29 season
.330/.393/.606 - 44 HR, 139 RBI

Pujols' age 29 season
.327/.443/.658 47 HR, 135 RBI


What's crazy is that Cabrera has actually declined the last two seasons because he is taking a lot less walks and reaching base a lot less, in order to sacrifice the extra home runs.

natsbats
10-18-2012, 07:40 PM
I think Cabrera will decline at a much lesser degree than Pujols has.

Cabrera is going to be a monster hitter at 35, I think. He has no weaknesses as a hitter and his swing is easy.

Zander 77
10-18-2012, 07:50 PM
So we're still going with the assumption that Pujols is the age he says he is? Not trying to start anything, just food for thought.

But as for Cabrera, he's the top Venezuelan hitter, but not Latino.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 07:58 PM
So we're still going with the assumption that Pujols is the age he says he is? Not trying to start anything, just food for thought.

But as for Cabrera, he's the top Venezuelan hitter, but not Latino.

Take the reverse of that.

Are we sticking with the assumption that Cabrera is the age he says he is?

At least Pujols went to high school in America and lived here before playing.

I think it's only reasonable to assume both players are the age they say they are since there is no evidence to the contrary currently.

Fly
10-18-2012, 07:59 PM
This thread :facepalm:

In short, no, he's not even close yet.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 08:00 PM
I think Cabrera will decline at a much lesser degree than Pujols has.

Cabrera is going to be a monster hitter at 35, I think. He has no weaknesses as a hitter and his swing is easy.

Since June, Pujols and Cabrera hit basically the same.

And yes, he is still 3 years older.

He had a rough first two months, but he clearly caught fire again.

-Lavigne43-
10-18-2012, 08:05 PM
It's Pujols and the only player that will be close at the end of Pujols career is Manny. Clemente is not in the same stratosphere as Pujols.

bagwell368
10-18-2012, 08:15 PM
He's well on his way, he just needs some time. Pujols has it for the time being.

Oh please. Miggy will never catch Albert. His rate stats are wholly inferior, and will remain so. Also Albert is great with the glove and decent on the bases unlike Miggy who is poor at those things.

bagwell368
10-18-2012, 08:18 PM
Roberto Clemente was one of my favorite players growing up. He's way behind this group.

aROD with position included destroys Miggy.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 08:19 PM
It's Pujols and the only player that will be close at the end of Pujols career is Manny. Clemente is not in the same stratosphere as Pujols.

Cabrera is closer to Manny than Manny is to Pujols


Pujols is beyond special

Zander 77
10-18-2012, 08:21 PM
Take the reverse of that.

Are we sticking with the assumption that Cabrera is the age he says he is?

At least Pujols went to high school in America and lived here before playing.

I think it's only reasonable to assume both players are the age they say they are since there is no evidence to the contrary currently.

But....Venezuelan's don't have a history of lying about their age.....

Fair enough, though :)

Pakman
10-18-2012, 08:25 PM
Ahh cabrera has a good year and people are ready to crown him GOAT. Silly Detroit homers. I'll still take trout any day of the week over fat boy.

natsbats
10-18-2012, 08:28 PM
Since June, Pujols and Cabrera hit basically the same.

And yes, he is still 3 years older.

He had a rough first two months, but he clearly caught fire again.

Oh I know, Pujols is clearly a better player for their respective careers.

However, this year and going forward for the next numerous.....Cabrera will be better and at the end of it all, Cabrera might have a career that is very close to Pujols - much closer than what they were when both were at their best/in their primes.

rocket
10-18-2012, 08:34 PM
Ahh cabrera has a good year and people are ready to crown him GOAT. Silly Detroit homers. I'll still take trout any day of the week over fat boy.

No one is even talking about Trout in this thread and not a single Detroit poster is even talking about Cabrera in the way u are acting. Why are you even in here lmfao, you just seem so butthurt that the Angels are not in the playoffs. No one cares who you'll take any day of the week. And your acting like Cabrera has had only one good year. Becuase of you I hope Trout regresses and does terrible.

albertajaysfan
10-18-2012, 08:35 PM
Ahh cabrera has a good year and people are ready to crown him GOAT. Silly Detroit homers. I'll still take trout any day of the week over fat boy.

Trout has no business in this conversation.....not being latino and all. I take nothing away from Trout he is an amazing ball player but come on now.

Asking these types of questions mid career make no sense whatsoever. Let's talk again in 10 years when him and Pujols are retired.

Sevilla91
10-18-2012, 08:38 PM
are u kidding me? tripe crown....

sexicano31
10-18-2012, 08:39 PM
are u kidding me? tripe crown....

So a triple crown makes you the GOAT?

nirvana235
10-18-2012, 08:40 PM
I think Cabrera will decline at a much lesser degree than Pujols has.

Cabrera is going to be a monster hitter at 35, I think. He has no weaknesses as a hitter and his swing is easy.

He's fat, a drunk, a drunk who drives...

I don't like his chances.

Pakman
10-18-2012, 08:41 PM
Ahh cabrera has a good year and people are ready to crown him GOAT. Silly Detroit homers. I'll still take trout any day of the week over fat boy.

No one is even talking about Trout in this thread and not a single Detroit poster is even talking about Cabrera in this thread. Why are you even in here lmfao, you just seem so butthurt that the Angels are not in the playoffs. No one cares who you'll take any day of the week.your partially right. I am bummed the angels are not oh and Detroit is in the WS cause of that weak division. However, I am mad that cabrera will probably win the MVP over trout and wrongfully so. OT cabrera has no business being in the conversation of greatest Latin player.

-Lavigne43-
10-18-2012, 09:19 PM
Cabrera is closer to Manny than Manny is to Pujols


Pujols is beyond special

Yeah. Manny's numbers are a full career though. Pujols career numbers will probably drop. Miggy too.

WadeKobe
10-18-2012, 09:32 PM
He's well on his way, he just needs some time. Pujols has it for the time being.

:facepalm:

What is it with fans on this site? It seems every team does it. Once your team gets good, not only is your team "the best", but your players are also.

Miggy will never catch Pujols and is not "well on his way." He's not close, and has never been close.

Albert Pujols (Age 29):

.334/.427/.658 -- 1.055 OPS -- .437 wOBA

169 wRC+ -- 172 OPS+ -- 61.1 oWAR

551.7 wRAA -- 1295 wRC

Miguel Cabrera (Age 29):

.318/.395/.561 -- .956 OPS -- .402 wOBA

148 wRC+ -- 151 OPS+ -- 50.9 oWAR

408.4 wRAA --- 1183 wRC

Miguel Cabrera is so far behind Pujols' pace that he isn't even sure he's on the right race track. All signs of which way Pujols went are gone.

In fact, Miggy's "historic" season where he won the TC is garbage compared to Pujols' season at age 29.

AP: .327/.443/.658 -- 1.101 (189) -- .447 (180) -- 47 HR -- 135 RBI
MC: .330/.393/.606 -- .999 (165) -- .417 (166) -- 44 HR -- 139 RBI

Miggy wishes he even knew what Pujol's "track" was like.

HowFit
10-18-2012, 09:33 PM
Pujols and Arod before Miggy...

WadeKobe
10-18-2012, 09:36 PM
Oh I know, Pujols is clearly a better player for their respective careers.

However, this year and going forward for the next numerous.....Cabrera will be better and at the end of it all, Cabrera might have a career that is very close to Pujols - much closer than what they were when both were at their best/in their primes.

There is no evidence which points in this direction. Nor to your assertion that Miggy will decline better than Pujols.

Miggy is in worse shape than Pujols, has never been as good as Pujols at any age, why will that change? The liklihood is that the gap only grows wider.

Pujols at 32 will be even better than Miggy at 32 compared to both at 29.

Pujols will lay waste to Miggy like Godzilla laying waste to Tokyo. It will never be close.

StriveGreatness
10-18-2012, 09:39 PM
Ahh cabrera has a good year and people are ready to crown him GOAT. Silly Detroit homers. I'll still take trout any day of the week over fat boy.

Seems like the gentleman (or lady) that started this thread is a Chicago Cubs fan.

agureghian
10-18-2012, 09:39 PM
Latino?


No way.

He is probably the best Venezualan hitter of all time

Abreu, Cargo, Mags, Andres Gal.

But not Latino.

He has a long way to go to catch Pujols

:rimshot:

bagwell368
10-18-2012, 09:41 PM
Oh I know, Pujols is clearly a better player for their respective careers.

However, this year and going forward for the next numerous.....Cabrera will be better and at the end of it all, Cabrera might have a career that is very close to Pujols - much closer than what they were when both were at their best/in their primes.

Unless Albert has 5 years straight of .200/.220/.300 Miggy will never catch him.

Here check out the rWAR's in order (top 10):

AP: MC:

9.4 - 7.3
9.0 - 6.9
8.5 - 6.1
8.4 - 5.5
8.3 - 4.9
8.2 - 4.7
8.2 - 3.2
7.3 - 3.0
6.3 - 2.3 .
5.2 - 0.5

AP 88.5 > MC 44.4

Miggy is 30 in April. It isn't just the totals he's getting blasted in. It's the shape of every year. MC is buried. He might have 4 more years like this year left, plus 3 more good years. 6.9 x 4 + 4.0 x 3 = 39.6. So even if AP retires, Miggy won't run him down. And there is very little chance Miggy tosses down a 39.6 over the next 7 years with his defense.

Or look at this way. AP is trying to run down Gehrig as the best 1B all time. He might pass Foxx next year for #2. Cabrera has very little hope of catching Bagwell at #3 and probably less than 50/50 to catch Thomas/Mize/Thome.

Skippy15
10-18-2012, 09:56 PM
How much homerism does it take for the answer to be anything but Pujols?

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 10:11 PM
Unless Albert has 5 years straight of .200/.220/.300 Miggy will never catch him.

Here check out the rWAR's in order (top 10):

AP: MC:

9.4 - 7.3
9.0 - 6.9
8.5 - 6.1
8.4 - 5.5
8.3 - 4.9
8.2 - 4.7
8.2 - 3.2
7.3 - 3.0
6.3 - 2.3 .
5.2 - 0.5

AP 88.5 > MC 44.4

Miggy is 30 in April. It isn't just the totals he's getting blasted in. It's the shape of every year. MC is buried. He might have 4 more years like this year left, plus 3 more good years. 6.9 x 4 + 4.0 x 3 = 39.6. So even if AP retires, Miggy won't run him down. And there is very little chance Miggy tosses down a 39.6 over the next 7 years with his defense.

Or look at this way. AP is trying to run down Gehrig as the best 1B all time. He might pass Foxx next year for #2. Cabrera has very little hope of catching Bagwell at #3 and probably less than 50/50 to catch Thomas/Mize/Thome.

The reality is that Cabrera's best season is equal to Pujols' 3rd worst of his career.

Pretty vast difference in these two really.

How they age will determine everything.

fadedmario
10-18-2012, 10:19 PM
Cabrera is better than Pujols. Did Pujols ever win a triple crown? ARod did roids. Ill take Miggy.

-Lavigne43-
10-18-2012, 10:25 PM
Actually Ted Williams is the best latino hitter ever. He's half Mexican.

WadeKobe
10-18-2012, 10:27 PM
Cabrera is better than Pujols. Did Pujols ever win a triple crown? ARod did roids. Ill take Miggy.

You've always been a terrible poster, in every forum.... this just proves it. :pity: Good argument, sir, good argument.

fadedmario
10-18-2012, 10:29 PM
I was kidding, thanks for the insult though.

fadedmario
10-18-2012, 10:30 PM
Only took 8 minutes.

fadedmario
10-18-2012, 10:35 PM
I wasn't kidding about the AROD comment though. He cheated, I'd take Miggy over him. Cabrera still has time to become one of the all-time greats.

T 980
10-18-2012, 10:36 PM
Is this Tim Kurkjian?

JoeDirt05
10-18-2012, 10:50 PM
Prince albert

Farsight
10-18-2012, 10:58 PM
I wasn't kidding about the AROD comment though. He cheated, I'd take Miggy over him. Cabrera still has time to become one of the all-time greats. Its really hard to detect sarcasm over the internet, especially when one is a known fan of said player, unless you say something obscure, or use an obscure font colour (like green) which usually indicates your being sarcastic

natepro
10-18-2012, 11:03 PM
Ahh cabrera has a good year and people are ready to crown him GOAT. Silly Detroit homers. I'll still take trout any day of the week over fat boy.

No one is even talking about Trout in this thread and not a single Detroit poster is even talking about Cabrera in the way u are acting. Why are you even in here lmfao, you just seem so butthurt that the Angels are not in the playoffs. No one cares who you'll take any day of the week. And your acting like Cabrera has had only one good year. Becuase of you I hope Trout regresses and does terrible. Well, at least you didn't overreact.

Shlumpledink
10-18-2012, 11:53 PM
Mantle was a much better Latino hitter

LakersA's49ers
10-18-2012, 11:59 PM
Roberto Clemente, Albert, A-Roid, but Cabrera makes the top 10 list most definite. very good hitter

Toxeryll
10-19-2012, 12:27 AM
ummmm no

Agar81
10-19-2012, 01:16 AM
Clemente...

Vixious
10-19-2012, 02:04 AM
I'll still take trout any day of the week over fat boy.


Why are you even in here lmfao


No one cares who you'll take any day of the week


Becuase of you I hope Trout regresses and does terrible.


Is this Tim Kurkjian?


Well, at least you didn't overreact.

This thread...... can't... stop... laughing...

Vixious
10-19-2012, 02:06 AM
God that felt good

....:laugh:

xxplayerxx23
10-19-2012, 07:52 AM
:laugh2: Arod is better and its not even close Albert is the best. Also anyalists and former players say 80% use, just because you didn't get caught doesn't mean you don't use.

YEDN90
10-19-2012, 08:39 AM
Just using WAR as an example, Cabrera's highest WAR in a season was 7.3

To put into perspective:

Arod has had 9 seasons as good or higher
Pujols has had 8 seasons as good or higher


So, no.

7chuck7
10-19-2012, 10:37 AM
Who's better than this guy?

He is on track to be as good or better than Roberto Clemente but he has many years to go. That is just as a hitter.

But as a all-around player he will never come near Clemente. Clemente was one of the best players who ever lived. He did everything amazingly well. Although 'The Mick' was my 'favorite' player I have to say that for me it was a toss up as to who was the 'best' I ever saw, Clemente or Willie Mays.

ahoda
10-19-2012, 11:04 AM
For the record, the OP is not a Tigers fan.

And no, he's not the best Latino hitter ever nor of this generation.

YEDN90
10-19-2012, 11:23 AM
He is on track to be as good or better than Roberto Clemente but he has many years to go. That is just as a hitter.

But as a all-around player he will never come near Clemente. Clemente was one of the best players who ever lived. He did everything amazingly well. Although 'The Mick' was my 'favorite' player I have to say that for me it was a toss up as to who was the 'best' I ever saw, Clemente or Willie Mays.

Willie Mays blows Clemente out of the water and it's not even close.

KobeOwnSU
10-19-2012, 11:32 AM
Roberto Clemente, end of discussion. /thread.

Muttman73
10-19-2012, 11:32 AM
Roberto Clemente, heard of him?

bagwell368
10-19-2012, 11:45 AM
Roberto Clemente, end of discussion. /thread.

Please. It says hitter. Clemente was a brilliant fielder, a meh base runner, a high BA, meh OBP, decent SLG hitter. He's is not near the top.

popo85
10-19-2012, 01:54 PM
Pujols

MoisesFTW
10-19-2012, 02:02 PM
Clemente then Pujols right behind him

jmaest
10-19-2012, 02:35 PM
The problem with this entire debate is that most of the Hispanic hitters were steroid users. Pujols, ARod, Manny, Ortiz are all tainted by association or suspicion.

If we exclude them, I would say Miguel Cabrera, for 1 season, is the greatest Hispanic hitter of any you could choose from.

If we include them, I would start with Manny, then ARod, before Cabrera...

Guys I like who aren't thought of are Ted Williams (1/4 Mexican :D) and Edgar Martinez.

Jeffy25
10-19-2012, 02:38 PM
The problem with this entire debate is that most of the Hispanic hitters were steroid users. Pujols, ARod, Manny, Ortiz are all tainted by association or suspicion.

If we exclude them, I would say Miguel Cabrera, for 1 season, is the greatest Hispanic hitter of any you could choose from.

If we include them, I would start with Manny, then ARod, before Cabrera...

Guys I like who aren't thought of are Ted Williams (1/4 Mexican :D) and Edgar Martinez.

It's still just rather funny that this season is considered the greatest offensive season because he won the Triple Crown.

When it's not even close.

Pujols has had 7 seasons better than this year by Cabrera offensively.

But because of 3 little obscure stats, it's blown out of proportion


What's even funnier is that Cabrera himself was better in 2011 than he was in 2012.

Jeffy25
10-19-2012, 02:40 PM
Clemente then Pujols right behind him

In what world is Clemente ahead of Pujols as a hitter?

Yankee Clipper
10-19-2012, 02:45 PM
Clemente then Pujols right behind him

:eyebrow:

ATL#22
10-19-2012, 02:58 PM
He's an amazing hitter but Jeter is obviously the greatest latino of all time.

bagwell368
10-19-2012, 03:02 PM
In what world is Clemente ahead of Pujols as a hitter?

Fantasy land where high BA's trump all.

Even using adjusted stats which help him, Clementes slash is:

.327/.370/.490

same vicinity as:

Cepeda: .306/.360/.515

Great players. HOF'ers. Nice. Not #1 - either of them.

abe_froman
10-19-2012, 03:16 PM
In what world is Clemente ahead of Pujols as a hitter?

i suspect that most are just looking at total hits when mentioning him....its so depressing

2009mvp
10-19-2012, 03:20 PM
The problem with this entire debate is that most of the Hispanic hitters were steroid users. Pujols, ARod, Manny, Ortiz are all tainted by association or suspicion.

If we exclude them, I would say Miguel Cabrera, for 1 season, is the greatest Hispanic hitter of any you could choose from.

If we include them, I would start with Manny, then ARod, before Cabrera...

Guys I like who aren't thought of are Ted Williams (1/4 Mexican :D) and Edgar Martinez.

How exactly has Pujols been associated with PEDs, and what besides his incredible numbers have caused anyone to suspect him of using? Because being really, really good at baseball damn sure isn't reason enough. A-Rod admitted it, Ortiz has a ton of circumstantial evidence surrounding him, Manny actually got popped, but Pujols? Nothing. I'm not sure why there's any reason to diminish his accomplishments.

popo85
10-19-2012, 05:59 PM
What about a top 5?

Mines
Pujols
Rodriguez
Clemente
Guerrero
Cabrera

cg_la00
10-20-2012, 04:53 PM
What about a top 5?

Mines
Pujols
Rodriguez
Clemente
Guerrero
Cabrera

u have cabrera over sosa?

lol, please
10-20-2012, 05:58 PM
Clemente hands down.

This.

VenezuelanMet
10-20-2012, 06:01 PM
Hello? Pujols and A-Rod exist.

I think Miggy will be a bit superior to Manny at the top of the 2nd tier. But those 2 are unreachable.

Also, the answer is really Ted Williams.

nymetsrule
10-20-2012, 06:27 PM
Hello? Pujols and A-Rod exist.

I think Miggy will be a bit superior to Manny at the top of the 2nd tier. But those 2 are unreachable.

Also, the answer is really Ted Williams.

Ted Willaims was born in the US to American parents...

VenezuelanMet
10-20-2012, 07:20 PM
Ted Willaims was born in the US to American parents...

Mexican heritage!

I was obviously joking.

MotownWebGuy
10-20-2012, 07:46 PM
Is Miguel Cabrera the greatest Latino hitter of all-time?
Who's better than this guy?

At Miguel's age (29), yes he is the overall greatest Latino hitter of all-time.

tmacsc2
10-20-2012, 07:53 PM
Seriously this has been said already a bunch in this thread but i feel like the OP needs to have this name seared into the back of his skull because he obviously forgot if he asked that Miguel Cabrera is the greatest latino hitter of all time.

ALBERT PUJOLS

SportsAndrew25
10-20-2012, 09:22 PM
He is getting up there, but you have to remember Pujols.

todu82
10-20-2012, 09:28 PM
Cabrera's a great player but he's not even close to being the best Latino hitter of all time. Clemente and Pujols are far better than him.

Texas Holders
10-21-2012, 01:14 AM
At Miguel's age (29), yes he is the overall greatest Latino hitter of all-time.

Based on what exactly makes him better than Pujols?

Greedy22
10-21-2012, 01:22 AM
At Miguel's age (29), yes he is the overall greatest Latino hitter of all-time.

:laugh:

Pujols and ARod say hi.

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 07:24 AM
At Miguel's age (29), yes he is the overall greatest Latino hitter of all-time.

He's not even in the ball park. Please.

Yankees90.
10-21-2012, 08:11 AM
ONE of the best, sure. But not even close to THE best. Albert Pujols is and will remain the greatest latino PLAYER, not just hitter, of all time for a long time.

jmaest
10-21-2012, 09:26 AM
Ted Willaims was born in the US to American parents...

His mother was half-Mexican.

jmaest
10-21-2012, 09:28 AM
Based on what exactly makes him better than Pujols?

He's played in tougher divisions, has no suspicion of steroids on him--yet, and he has a triple crown.

I don't personally think he's better than Pujols yet but for 1 specific season, I'd say Cabrera is a pretty good choice...

hugepatsfan
10-21-2012, 10:02 AM
He's played in tougher divisions, has no suspicion of steroids on him--yet, and he has a triple crown.

I don't personally think he's better than Pujols yet but for 1 specific season, I'd say Cabrera is a pretty good choice...

Do us all a favor and quit PSD.

Yankees90.
10-21-2012, 10:09 AM
He's played in tougher divisions, has no suspicion of steroids on him--yet, and he has a triple crown.

I don't personally think he's better than Pujols yet but for 1 specific season, I'd say Cabrera is a pretty good choice...

:facepalm:

natepro
10-21-2012, 10:10 AM
He's played in tougher divisions, has no suspicion of steroids on him--yet, and he has a triple crown.

I don't personally think he's better than Pujols yet but for 1 specific season, I'd say Cabrera is a pretty good choice...

You just used "he has a triple crown" as a reason? :confused:

jmaest
10-21-2012, 10:57 AM
You just used "he has a triple crown" as a reason? :confused:

You're taking it out of context. I threw out reasons that one could argue for Cabrera being better than Pujols--not that I think he is or isn't. I was just throwing things out there that could be valid arguments.

Like it or not, the guy has the first Triple Crown in what, 20-30-40-50-60 years or so? To say it's meaningless because someone else has "stats" that look better is ridiculous.

Getting a Triple-Crown is an amazing accomplishment. If it was a fluke then I'd say you have a point but we're talking about a guy who has been a consistent offensive force for years now. Every year he's a top 5 offensive player.

I know "stat-worshippers" are blind to anything not numerically superior but there are some things in sports that are amazing feats: 56 Game hitting streak, 3 straight no-hitters, Triple-Crown winners, etc.

quade36
10-21-2012, 11:07 AM
Clemente played in the pitchers era too. Some of the greatest pitchers in baseball history were at their peak during his years. He battled the likes of Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, and Marichal. His numbers were still sick.

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 11:30 AM
Clemente played in the pitchers era too. Some of the greatest pitchers in baseball history were at their peak during his years. He battled the likes of Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, and Marichal. His numbers were still sick.

No, not really.

Raw slash: .317/.359/.475

Adj slash: .327/.370/.490

With his D and longevity that's a HOF, but not a top shelf hitter.

I saw the man play from 1966 onward and he was one of my 3-4 favorites, but he simply isn't in the top 4.

BTW Clemente broke Gibson's leg in the summer of '67 with a line drive. If he had done it 6 weeks later, the Red Sox probably would have won the WS.

fadedmario
10-21-2012, 11:34 AM
You're taking it out of context. I threw out reasons that one could argue for Cabrera being better than Pujols--not that I think he is or isn't. I was just throwing things out there that could be valid arguments.

Like it or not, the guy has the first Triple Crown in what, 20-30-40-50-60 years or so? To say it's meaningless because someone else has "stats" that look better is ridiculous.

Getting a Triple-Crown is an amazing accomplishment. If it was a fluke then I'd say you have a point but we're talking about a guy who has been a consistent offensive force for years now. Every year he's a top 5 offensive player.

I know "stat-worshippers" are blind to anything not numerically superior but there are some things in sports that are amazing feats: 56 Game hitting streak, 3 straight no-hitters, Triple-Crown winners, etc.

Good post.

natepro
10-21-2012, 11:35 AM
You're taking it out of context. I threw out reasons that one could argue for Cabrera being better than Pujols--not that I think he is or isn't. I was just throwing things out there that could be valid arguments.

Like it or not, the guy has the first Triple Crown in what, 20-30-40-50-60 years or so? To say it's meaningless because someone else has "stats" that look better is ridiculous.

Getting a Triple-Crown is an amazing accomplishment. If it was a fluke then I'd say you have a point but we're talking about a guy who has been a consistent offensive force for years now. Every year he's a top 5 offensive player.

I know "stat-worshippers" are blind to anything not numerically superior but there are some things in sports that are amazing feats: 56 Game hitting streak, 3 straight no-hitters, Triple-Crown winners, etc.

Yeah, but they're not valid arguments. They're nonsense, ridiculous arguments.

And, more importantly, they're simply and completely wrong.

hugepatsfan
10-21-2012, 11:35 AM
Good post.

liar

natepro
10-21-2012, 11:39 AM
Good post.

Sarcasm? :confused:

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 11:41 AM
Yeah, but they're not valid arguments. They're nonsense, ridiculous arguments.

And, more importantly, they're simply and completely wrong.

Proven by the fact he had better stats last year and didn't win the triple crown, or that Trout had a far greater year. or that by comparison it's the weakest triple crown in history.

jej
10-21-2012, 11:43 AM
No, he meant it. It's the guy who thinks RBI matter and that Cabrera is the obvious choice for MVP.

VenezuelanMet
10-21-2012, 12:25 PM
Why attack the guy like that? That's why I've distanced myself from the "saber community" despite agreeing with most of stuff the stuff.

He's at least writing a coherent post and doing some sort of personal analysism there's some value in that. How about trying to discuss why he's wrong without dismissing him? Jeez.

Oh, I forgot this is the internet. We're a bunch of cool mother****ers and everyone with a different opinion it's not.

NYYrdbest
10-21-2012, 12:33 PM
Latino?


No way. He is probably the best Venezualan hitter of all time: Abreu, Cargo, Mags, Andres Gal.

But not Latino.

He has a long way to go to catch Pujols
--------------------------------------------------------


> Interesting question, but the answer is no, at least not yet. If he continues to produce the way he is hitting then he will be. Clemente will be first on my list with Carew a close second (both hit 3,000 hits) then Pujols.

Technically ARod is not a Latino per sť because he was born and raised in USA but a few years ago ARod had the potential to be the best homerun hitter of all times, and currently he will be lucky just to pass Willie Mays. That fact leads me to think that time will tell. Cabrera has the potential but his weight can become a problem... not to mention his drinking habits. I got a feeling that during the off-season he will be celebrating like crazy and hence he will be too big. We all know that without steroids father time will become a factor.

One last comment, the first 6-7 years in Orlando Cepeda's career he had incredible stats but then he went down the hill. Cabrera has a lot to prove but there is no doubt that he has the potential to become one of the best hitters of all times regardless ethnical backgrounds.

sexicano31
10-21-2012, 12:34 PM
You're taking it out of context. I threw out reasons that one could argue for Cabrera being better than Pujols--not that I think he is or isn't. I was just throwing things out there that could be valid arguments.

Like it or not, the guy has the first Triple Crown in what, 20-30-40-50-60 years or so? To say it's meaningless because someone else has "stats" that look better is ridiculous.

Getting a Triple-Crown is an amazing accomplishment. If it was a fluke then I'd say you have a point but we're talking about a guy who has been a consistent offensive force for years now. Every year he's a top 5 offensive player.

I know "stat-worshippers" are blind to anything not numerically superior but there are some things in sports that are amazing feats: 56 Game hitting streak, 3 straight no-hitters, Triple-Crown winners, etc.
You know Cabrera was better last year, right?

jej
10-21-2012, 12:36 PM
Why attack the guy like that? That's why I've distanced myself from the "saber community" despite agreeing with most of stuff the stuff.

He's at least writing a coherent post and doing some sort of personal analysism there's some value in that. How about trying to discuss why he's wrong without dismissing him? Jeez.

Oh, I forgot this is the internet. We're a bunch of cool mother****ers and everyone with a different opinion it's not.

You obviously didn't see the thread he made on the topic in which I and many others did exactly that, and he payed no attention.

I'm not attacking him. I'm saying that he was serious because he honestly thinks like that, despite what real stats tell us.

Logic doesn't work with him.

jej
10-21-2012, 12:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------


> Interesting question, but the answer is no, at least not yet. If he continues to produce the way he is hitting then he will be. Clemente will be first on my list with Carew a close second (both hit 3,000 hits) then Pujols.

Technically ARod is not a Latino per sť because he was born and raised in USA but a few years ago ARod had the potential to be the best homerun hitter of all times, and currently he will be lucky just to pass Willie Mays. That fact leads me to think that time will tell. Cabrera has the potential but his weight can become a problem... not to mention his drinking habits. I got a feeling that during the off-season he will be celebrating like crazy and hence he will be too big. We all know that without steroids father time will become a factor.

One last comment, the first 6-7 years in Orlando Cepeda's career he had incredible stats but then he went down the hill. Cabrera has a lot to prove but there is no doubt that he has the potential to become one of the best hitters of all times regardless ethnical backgrounds.

Clemente and Carew over Pujols?

NYYrdbest
10-21-2012, 12:42 PM
Proven by the fact he had better stats last year and didn't win the triple crown, or that Trout had a far greater year. or that by comparison it's the weakest triple crown in history.

BTW Carl Yastrzemski shared the home run crown wth Harmon Killebrew so it was a 2 1/2 Triple Crown.

NYYrdbest
10-21-2012, 01:41 PM
Clemente and Carew over Pujols?

Yes... 3,000 hits. Whenever Pujols arrive to that magic number then he will become the best Latino hitter. Clemente will still be best all around player, he was the best in RF and better runner than Albert. Plus I think that Pujols had some juice during the first 5-7 years of his career. Have you seen Albert's stats the past two years? They are pretty ordinary. I think that he has the potential to become the next ARod.

Fly
10-21-2012, 01:45 PM
Yes... 3,000 hits. Whenever Pujols arrive to that magic number then he will become the best Latino hitter. Clemente will still be best all around player, he was the best in RF and better runner than Albert. Plus I think that Pujols had some juice during the first 5-7 years of his career. Have you seen Albert's stats the past two years? They are pretty ordinary. I think that he has the potential to become the next ARod.

On what planet is a .384 wOBA ordinary?

hugepatsfan
10-21-2012, 01:51 PM
On what planet is a .384 wOBA ordinary?

Planet Moron

NYYrdbest
10-21-2012, 01:58 PM
But....Venezuelan's don't have a history of lying about their age.....

Fair enough, though :)

Unfortunately, there are quite a few Dominicans (including Little Leaguers)that had lied abot their age and identity but that does not necessarily includes Pujols. That being said right now Pujols has the edge over Cabrera. I still think that Pujols had the benefit of steroids but Cabrera is becoming to bulky.

NYYrdbest
10-21-2012, 02:13 PM
On what planet is a .384 wOBA ordinary?

Planet Earth...

2011
31 Cardinals
147
579 105 173 29 0 37 1 99 61 15 58 0 7 4 29 .


2012
32 Angels of Anaheim
155 607 85 173 50 0 30 0 105 52 4 76 0 0 5 6 .


299 /285 avg. / 173 hits in both seasons, 37 & 30 Homers and 99 & 105 aren’t exactly spectacular!

NYYrdbest
10-21-2012, 02:15 PM
Planet Moron

That's were you are from, so that makes you a Moronist or simply and idiot, right?

hugepatsfan
10-21-2012, 02:18 PM
That's were you are from, so that makes you a Moronist or simply and idiot, right?

This isn't an insult to me. It's an insult to whatever school district you're a part of.

jej
10-21-2012, 02:23 PM
Yes... 3,000 hits. Whenever Pujols arrive to that magic number then he will become the best Latino hitter. Clemente will still be best all around player, he was the best in RF and better runner than Albert. Plus I think that Pujols had some juice during the first 5-7 years of his career. Have you seen Albert's stats the past two years? They are pretty ordinary. I think that he has the potential to become the next ARod.

Counting stats...

Pujols: .425 wOBA, 164 wRC+, .325 average, 475 HR, 2246 hits thru first 12 seasons

Clemente: .365 wOBA, 129 wRC+, .317 average, 240 HR, 2029 hits thru first 12 seasons


Even in crappy traditional stats like average and counting stats like hits and HR Pujols is better.

jej
10-21-2012, 02:24 PM
Planet Earth...

2011
31 Cardinals
147
579 105 173 29 0 37 1 99 61 15 58 0 7 4 29 .


2012
32 Angels of Anaheim
155 607 85 173 50 0 30 0 105 52 4 76 0 0 5 6 .


299 /285 avg. / 173 hits in both seasons, 37 & 30 Homers and 99 & 105 arenít exactly spectacular!

Cant tell what those numbers are, no labels..

popo85
10-21-2012, 03:03 PM
u have cabrera over sosa?

Sosa in his early years was inconsistent

Greedy22
10-21-2012, 03:25 PM
Yes... 3,000 hits. Whenever Pujols arrive to that magic number then he will become the best Latino hitter. Clemente will still be best all around player, he was the best in RF and better runner than Albert. Plus I think that Pujols had some juice during the first 5-7 years of his career. Have you seen Albert's stats the past two years? They are pretty ordinary. I think that he has the potential to become the next ARod.

Why does he have to reach that magic number when's he trumped in all the other traditional stats you use?

LOL at a .384 wOBA being ordinary, do you live under a rock?

stejay
10-21-2012, 03:26 PM
1. Pujols
2. A Rod
3. Ramirez
4. Clemente
5. Cabrera (at the moment, but could move up)
6. Carew

2-3 seasons at the very pinnacle does not warrant usurping the guys above him, who were the best, or up there with the best their entire careers, or the majority of them.

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 05:36 PM
BTW Carl Yastrzemski shared the home run crown wth Harmon Killebrew so it was a 2 1/2 Triple Crown.

I know. I was in the crowd the day Killebrew hit number 44.

Yaz's 1967 was distinctly better on the field than Cabrera. Yaz's season was one of 5 most important seasons of the past 60 years. Most important in Red Sox history since 1918.

nickster16301
10-21-2012, 06:11 PM
Hitter yes he is...but player definetely is Clemente

Fly
10-21-2012, 06:13 PM
Hitter yes he is...but player definetely is Clemente

:laugh: please tell me why!

jej
10-21-2012, 06:23 PM
These people realize Pujols and ARod exist dont they? And even Manny?

Fly
10-21-2012, 06:27 PM
These people realize Pujols and ARod exist dont they? And even Manny?

Teh TRIPLE CROWNZ!!!!!

seikou8
10-21-2012, 06:50 PM
lol at this thread

Greedy22
10-21-2012, 07:16 PM
Teh TRIPLE CROWNZ!!!!!

The end all be all award, Miggy=GOAT!

abe_froman
10-21-2012, 07:32 PM
The end all be all award, Miggy=GOAT!
yup ,especially since babe ruth never won one i guess he was crappy hitter so that goat title is up for grabs

Texas Holders
10-21-2012, 07:38 PM
He's played in tougher divisions, has no suspicion of steroids on him--yet, and he has a triple crown.

I don't personally think he's better than Pujols yet but for 1 specific season, I'd say Cabrera is a pretty good choice...

The AL Central hasn't been any tougher than the NL Central. Pujols hasn't had any steroid suspicion either. Pujols has 5 or 6 seasons that ar better than Cabrera's season this year. Cabrera even has a season better than he had this year. Pujols's 2003, 2008, and 2009 seasons embarrasses any season put up by Cabrera.

Jeffy25
10-21-2012, 07:39 PM
He's played in tougher divisions, has no suspicion of steroids on him--yet, and he has a triple crown.

I don't personally think he's better than Pujols yet but for 1 specific season, I'd say Cabrera is a pretty good choice...

Twice now we have seen a post like this.


So Cabrera is for sure clean, and Pujols has a cloud of PED usage hanging over him?


How?

How on earth can someone make something like that up and then post it? That's simply not true in any way. Cabrera is just as likely to have used PED's as Pujols.

The same thing about not believing Pujols' age, but that Cabrera's age is for some reason trust worthy.


People are just making stuff up with no evidence and using that to help determine who the best 'latino hitter of all time' and have completely ignored factual information.

There is almost no way Miggy can catch up to Pujols by the time he is 32 (3 years from now). Pujols will have to continue to greatly decline, and then Cabrera will actually have to improve pretty greatly.

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 08:33 PM
Hitter yes he is...but player definetely is Clemente

Clemente vs Pujols

BA: roughly a tie
OBP: AP++
SLG: AP++
Fld: Clemente was the best RF since at least 1950, but AP is an excellent 1B, and RF is only 150% more important than 1B.
base running: AP (Clemente was an awful runner for his energy and speed in the OF)

Of those 4 "measurements" OBP + SLG is worth much more then BA + Fld, on the order of 6 to 1.

Greedy22
10-21-2012, 11:28 PM
yup ,especially since babe ruth never won one i guess he was crappy hitter so that goat title is up for grabs

you hit it on the head, Miggy>all.

Captain Moroni
10-22-2012, 12:46 AM
Clemente was pretty freaking good.

YEDN90
10-22-2012, 01:21 AM
Am I the only one who isn't completely enamored with Clemente? Jeeze.

Yankees90.
10-22-2012, 03:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------


> Interesting question, but the answer is no, at least not yet. If he continues to produce the way he is hitting then he will be. Clemente will be first on my list with Carew a close second (both hit 3,000 hits) then Pujols.

Technically ARod is not a Latino per sť because he was born and raised in USA but a few years ago ARod had the potential to be the best homerun hitter of all times, and currently he will be lucky just to pass Willie Mays. That fact leads me to think that time will tell. Cabrera has the potential but his weight can become a problem... not to mention his drinking habits. I got a feeling that during the off-season he will be celebrating like crazy and hence he will be too big. We all know that without steroids father time will become a factor.

One last comment, the first 6-7 years in Orlando Cepeda's career he had incredible stats but then he went down the hill. Cabrera has a lot to prove but there is no doubt that he has the potential to become one of the best hitters of all times regardless ethnical backgrounds.


Well, in all fairness, just because you're not born in a Latin country doesn't mean it should exclude you.

That's like someone saying my Mercedes was built in the U.S., so it's not a German car.

abe_froman
10-22-2012, 04:10 AM
Technically ARod is not a Latino per sť because he was born and raised in USA .

latino is an ethnic grouping,not always/only a reference to pob.being born in the us does nothing to change his ancestry,he's still latino because of that

jej
10-22-2012, 09:13 AM
Yeah, If I'm born in China doesn't mean Im Chinese.

bagwell368
10-22-2012, 09:57 AM
Clemente was pretty freaking good.

You bet he was, one of my 3 favorites as a kid. HOF for sure. As a hitter not a match for the other guys mentioned.

If the thread said player, he'd move up off his awesome glove.

Manny and Cabrera both suck in the field, so that would ding them.

Pinstripe pride
10-22-2012, 10:03 AM
no, but i once saw him get a hit on an inteitonal walk which was pretty cool

ahoda
10-22-2012, 10:09 AM
You bet he was, one of my 3 favorites as a kid. HOF for sure. As a hitter not a match for the other guys mentioned.

If the thread said player, he'd move up off his awesome glove.

Manny and Cabrera both suck in the field, so that would ding them.


I dont know man. Manny had that awesome diving catch to cut off the throw by Damon. That was so epic.

ManningToTyree
10-22-2012, 10:16 AM
No way.

STL Don
10-22-2012, 02:20 PM
Lmao 2012 has not been the only year of baseball.

Big Zo
10-22-2012, 11:18 PM
no, but i once saw him get a hit on an inteitonal walk which was pretty cool

Against the Orioles. That was awesome.

Krush
10-23-2012, 02:49 AM
1. Pujols
2. Cabrera
3. Clemente

Leandres_sf
10-23-2012, 03:04 AM
Pujols, Clemete, ARod. I'm sure there's others I'm not thinking of, anyhow, no way it's Cabrera.

Krush
10-23-2012, 03:07 AM
I don't include ARod nor Manny because they are dirty cheaters with inflated stats. BTW how come no one is mentioning Vlad?

Greedy22
10-23-2012, 03:12 AM
I don't include ARod nor Manny because they are dirty cheaters with inflated stats. BTW how come no one is mentioning Vlad?

Their stats still count whether you like it or not though.. He's not on that level, no I'm kidding. I honestly have no idea.

WadeKobe
10-23-2012, 06:15 AM
I don't include ARod nor Manny because they are dirty cheaters with inflated stats.

(1) I love how we act like we know so much about

--- (a) When they used steroids
--- (b) How much they used steroids
--- (c) How much they benefitted from steroids

(2) They were better than Miggy without steroids.



BTW how come no one is mentioning Vlad?

I have no idea. However, you want to know the real mystery? Why is no one mentioning Edgar Martinez??

(1) Pujols
(2) Manny
(3) ARod
(4) Edgar
(5) Vlad
(6) Miggy
(7) Carew/ Papi
(8) Clemente
(9/10) Palmeiro/JuanGon/Canseco/Alou

Clemente was good, but he wasn't the hitter Migs is.

HowFit
10-23-2012, 07:08 AM
I don't include ARod nor Manny because they are dirty cheaters with inflated stats. BTW how come no one is mentioning Vlad?

The question is who isn't a dirty cheater?

natepro
10-23-2012, 07:34 AM
How is this thread not just the word "No" 161 times?

jej
10-23-2012, 09:23 AM
Fricken Edgar! Totally forgot. That's embarrassing

Career .406 wOBA and 148 wRC+.

YEDN90
10-23-2012, 09:30 AM
Top ten? Sure.

Best? Comedy.

Trueblue2
10-23-2012, 04:25 PM
But....Venezuelan's don't have a history of lying about their age.....

Fair enough, though :)

Yea but wouldn't lying about your age ultimately be a competitive disadvantage in the majors? Sure it would help players get in, but in the end they have to play like they're like 3 years younger just to meet expectations.

fadedmario
10-23-2012, 05:30 PM
1. Pujols
2. Cabrera
3. Clemente

:)

fadedmario
10-23-2012, 05:31 PM
Lmao 2012 has not been the only year of baseball.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

jej
10-23-2012, 05:32 PM
Fadedmario, if you really think Cabby is the second best Latino player in history then :facepalm: yourself.

klane079
10-23-2012, 09:05 PM
Twice now we have seen a post like this.


So Cabrera is for sure clean, and Pujols has a cloud of PED usage hanging over him?


How?

How on earth can someone make something like that up and then post it? That's simply not true in any way. Cabrera is just as likely to have used PED's as Pujols.

The same thing about not believing Pujols' age, but that Cabrera's age is for some reason trust worthy.


People are just making stuff up with no evidence and using that to help determine who the best 'latino hitter of all time' and have completely ignored factual information.

There is almost no way Miggy can catch up to Pujols by the time he is 32 (3 years from now). Pujols will have to continue to greatly decline, and then Cabrera will actually have to improve pretty greatly.

Innocent till proven guilty...I see no accusation in his post that Pujols is/was on PEDs. I took it as guys like ARod and Manny.

Johann
10-23-2012, 09:53 PM
What do you mean by hitter?
He's probably top 3 in hitting the bars among All-time Latinos.
Probably top 10 hitting baseballs!

fadedmario
10-24-2012, 12:12 AM
Says the Trout homer...
Fadedmario, if you really think Cabby is the second best Latino player in history then :facepalm: yourself.

Greedy22
10-24-2012, 12:23 AM
I don't see the "Trout homer" claiming him to be the greatest hitter of his ethnicity in here.

jej
10-24-2012, 09:12 AM
You know I'm a Mariners fan right? I hate the Angels.

That's not what this is about. It's not who I like, it's who deserves to win.

And I didn't say Trout was the greatest white hitter because of one season did I? Cause you did for Cabrera.

bagwell368
10-24-2012, 09:48 AM
Under no circumstances or way of measuring hitting his Cabrera the best Latino.

Make it player and not just hitter, and he falls down the list even more.

/thread

natsbats
10-24-2012, 10:47 AM
"The bottom line is there is no way you let Miguel Cabrera beat you," the scout said. "He's the best righthanded hitter of this generation -- better than Pujols."

Was just said in a recent column.

Twitchy
10-24-2012, 11:14 AM
"The bottom line is there is no way you let Miguel Cabrera beat you," the scout said. "He's the best righthanded hitter of this generation -- better than Pujols."

Was just said in a recent column.

By a scout that was clearly high as a kite. If a scout actually believes that then I pity whatever team is paying him to scout talent. Because Pujols is one of the greatest hitters of all time. And while Cabrera is certainly a good hitter, he just isn't in Pujols class.

Yanks All Day
10-24-2012, 11:19 AM
Alex Rodriguez

ImgoodHarbaughU
10-24-2012, 11:26 AM
Top 5? Yes but the best? No Pujols, Clemente, and A-roids are all better

Scully in 2012
10-24-2012, 11:43 AM
alex rodriguez

:facepalm:

natepro
10-24-2012, 11:51 AM
Says the Trout homer...

It's like you're trying to be wrong as frequently as possible. :laugh2: Cue the "I was being sarcastic" comment...

sexicano31
10-24-2012, 11:59 AM
You're all forgetting about Placido Polanco

1903
10-24-2012, 01:14 PM
Is the OP serious? It's Jeter and it's not even close. Jeter could be the greatest Chinese hitter of all time due to all the Chinese pootang that he has hit over the years. The man has seen more Latino *** than J-Lo's boyfriend after she sits on his face. If you add all the ebony babes that he has wrecked over the years it would make Africa look like a small village.

Nomar
10-24-2012, 03:19 PM
Is the OP serious? It's Jeter and it's not even close. Jeter could be the greatest Chinese hitter of all time due to all the Chinese pootang that he has hit over the years. The man has seen more Latino *** than J-Lo's boyfriend after she sits on his face. If you add all the ebony babes that he has wrecked over the years it would make Africa look like a small village.

:clap:

WadeKobe
10-24-2012, 05:03 PM
Top 5? Yes but the best? No Pujols, Clemente, and A-roids are all better

Not Top5.

Pujols
Manny
ARod
Edgar
Vlad

He is not better than them and will not be better than them when he retires.

WadeKobe
10-24-2012, 05:04 PM
"The bottom line is there is no way you let Miguel Cabrera beat you," the scout said. "He's the best righthanded hitter of this generation -- better than Pujols."

Was just said in a recent column.

By an idiot.

tcav701
10-24-2012, 05:30 PM
Wiki Gonzalez?

Tymathee
10-24-2012, 07:18 PM
Gonzalez was better
Alex Rodriguez
Clemente
Pujols
Guerrero

so no

Nomar
10-24-2012, 07:22 PM
Gonzalez was better
Alex Rodriguez
Clemente
Pujols
Guerrero

so no

Clemente was a better player not hitter IMO

WadeKobe
10-24-2012, 08:23 PM
Gonzalez was better

Gonzalez who??



Clemente


Clemente was an infinitely better player, but not the better hitter. Miggy wins this one.

Greedy22
10-24-2012, 11:40 PM
By an idiot.

:laugh:

popo85
10-24-2012, 11:53 PM
You know I'm a Mariners fan right? I hate the Angels.

That's not what this is about. It's not who I like, it's who deserves to win.

And I didn't say Trout was the greatest white hitter because of one season did I? Cause you did for Cabrera.

jej, he trolls every thread don't even bother to respond.

jej
10-24-2012, 11:57 PM
I know, but I honestly feel like he is serious and needs help.

StriveGreatness
10-25-2012, 12:02 AM
jej, he trolls every thread don't even bother to respond.

jej knows all about trolling...

AsKingsSharks
10-25-2012, 12:47 AM
You're all forgetting about Placido Polanco

Lol, so adorbs

VenezuelanMet
10-25-2012, 12:52 AM
The answer is now Pablo Sandoval.

popo85
10-25-2012, 01:35 AM
Gonzalez who??





Juan Gonzalez

metsfan4ever
10-25-2012, 05:45 AM
Talk about living in the moment

jej
10-25-2012, 09:31 AM
jej knows all about trolling...

Give me 2 examples of me trolling. I may joke, but I don't all out trolls. You just don't know the difference between logic (what I say) and fantasy (what you say).

WadeKobe
10-25-2012, 01:08 PM
Juan Gonzalez

I don't get it. Do people just say stuff without even thinking/looking things up? JuanGon is NOT better than Miggy and it isn't really all that close, either.

first 10 years:

JG: .296/.345/.576 -- .920 OPS -- 137 OPS + -- 339 HR -- 1068 RBI

.390 wOBA -- 133 wRC+ -- 893 wRC -- 259.2 wRAA -- 33.2 oWAR

MC: .318/.395/.561 -- .956 OPS -- 151 OPS + -- 321 HR -- 1123 RBI

.402 wOBA -- 148 wRC+ -- 1183 wRC -- 408.4 wRAA -- 50.9 oWAR


Juan Gonzales was only better in two offensive categories -- HR and SLG.

If we use his neutralized numbers, he loses SLG (.560 vs. .562) and all of his numbers go down significantly.

Adjusted slash:

JG: .289/.337/.560 -- .897 OPS
MC: .319/.396/.562 -- .958 OPS

Miguel Cabrera is much better than Juan Gonzalez ever was, and it isn't close. Where do people get this stuff from? I swear they just make **** up and throw it out there. It isn't hard to look things up first.

Again, the best 13 Latino hitters:

1) Pujols
2) ManRam
3) ARod
4) Edgar
5) Vlad
6) Miggy
7) Carew/Papi
9) Clemente
10) JuanGon/Canseco/Palmeiro/Alou

You're really not going to be able to argue any of them changing places.

VenezuelanMet
10-25-2012, 06:04 PM
I'd love to see your Manny over A-Rod argument.

Jeffy25
10-25-2012, 06:09 PM
I'd love to see your Manny over A-Rod argument.

As a hitter?

Manny
154 OPS+
.312/.411/.585 - .418 wOBA, 153 wRC+
1930 career runs created in 9774 PA


A-Rod
143 OPS+
.300/.384/.560 - .401 wOBA, 144 wRC+
2044 career runs created in 11163 PA


That one is easy

abe_froman
10-25-2012, 06:11 PM
I'd love to see your Manny over A-Rod argument.

there was a brillant thread on that back in like 08/09,its in the player comp board.bagwell went to town in it

AllKohn
10-25-2012, 06:24 PM
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny Pujos Manny Manny Manny Clemente Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny ARod Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny Toyosho Shinjo-oops, lost my train of thought.

bagwell368
10-25-2012, 06:26 PM
there was a brillant thread on that back in like 08/09,its in the player comp board.bagwell went to town in it

Testify my brother !

Now if we go to "player" from "hitter", AROD has it easily, but, we aren't, so it didn't.

On to another detail - I wouldn't put Vlad ahead of Miggy....

sep11ie
10-25-2012, 06:27 PM
Clemente all day

bagwell368
10-25-2012, 06:30 PM
Clemente all day

I'm one of a very small handful of posters that saw him play (1966-end). He was one of my 3 or 4 favorites, and he's not there at the top.

jej
10-25-2012, 07:00 PM
Testify my brother !

Now if we go to "player" from "hitter", AROD has it easily, but, we aren't, so it didn't.

On to another detail - I wouldn't put Vlad ahead of Miggy....

Its extremely close.

Based on their first ten years:

Vlad: .403 wOBA, 143 wRC+, 326 HR, .981 OPS

Miguel: .402 wOBA, 148 wRC+, 321 HR, .956 OPS

Could argue for either one, Id personally go with Vlad.

bagwell368
10-25-2012, 07:29 PM
Its extremely close.

Based on their first ten years:

Vlad: .403 wOBA, 143 wRC+, 326 HR, .981 OPS

Miguel: .402 wOBA, 148 wRC+, 321 HR, .956 OPS

Could argue for either one, Id personally go with Vlad.

True. Maybe they should be on the same line?

Nomar
10-25-2012, 07:46 PM
Vlad was more impressive than Cabrera IMO. Not a shot at Miggy, but a guy with the most enlarged strike zone ever having the contact skill and power that Vladdy had was insane. Remember the "Vlad Zone" on ESPN? Haha, that guy was truly incredible.

bagwell368
10-25-2012, 08:40 PM
Vlad was more impressive than Cabrera IMO. Not a shot at Miggy, but a guy with the most enlarged strike zone ever having the contact skill and power that Vladdy had was insane. Remember the "Vlad Zone" on ESPN? Haha, that guy was truly incredible.

Yeah, he was a wild man, but a lot of his image comes from the base running, fielding, and arm in his early prime. If Cabrera keeps his nose clean I think his decline will be more gentle than Vlads, so in 10 years, Miggy will have exceeded him.

If you like no strike zone discipline hitters, you've got to dig up tape of Manny Sanguillen, a catcher for the Pirates from the late 60's until 1980. His adjusted slash in 1975 was: .341/.404/.469 - more typical of his BB rate was 1971: .333/.359/.441

He hit balls over his head, and two inches off the ground.

WadeKobe
10-25-2012, 08:46 PM
True. Maybe they should be on the same line?

You are probably right. My White Sox bias is showing through.

jej
10-26-2012, 09:28 AM
True. Maybe they should be on the same line?

Where do you get the adjusted numbers and such?

bagwell368
10-26-2012, 10:51 AM
Where do you get the adjusted numbers and such?

BR;
click "More Stats" (for hitters I'm talking);
go down about 75% of the page to "Neutralized batting"

What that will show you is park adjusted in that year, how the hitter would look in a neutral run env (750 runs per 162 game schedule per team). Lately they added the ability to change the run env.

Guys from the 60's look a lot better, and guys from the crazy era's of the early 30's or 90's looks weaker.

1965 Jim Wynn raw: .275/.371/.470

1965 Jim Wynn adj: .296/.396/.506

also: SB: 43 CS: 4 BB: 84 xBH: 59 in the Dome, in a year with a 4.03 R/G env (653 runs per team ave)

Jim Wynn had a 7.0 rWAR year, and I saw him play 2 of those games, and nobody remembers him because his career slash (.250/.366/.436) look like he's Ron Gant . But he's not, he was easily better then Jim Rice. Wynn's adj neutral slash was: .266/.384/.464 w/ 670 xBH and 246 SB and 53.1 rWAR.

I just adjusted Wynn to play his whole home career for the Rockies in Y2K (road also Y2K, and his slash is: .311/.437/.542. Hey Helton, Wynn says hi.