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Jeffy25
10-16-2012, 09:10 PM
Just like last year, I will be hosting the annual PSD awards votes.

You will submit your vote for each available award by PM. If you simply post it in this thread, IT WILL NOT COUNT.

You are also welcomed to post in this thread your selections, but it isn't necessary and again, that will not count as your vote. You must Private Message me your ballot!!!!


The deadline for submitting ballots is midnight November 2nd, so you'll have through 1st to send your ballot in.

PLEASE READ ALL THE RULES
There have been some changes to the ballots, most notably the Gold Glove award for outfielders.

Rules:
1) All ballots must be sent by Private Message to Jeffy25.

2) Please try to be as unbiased as you can when voting. Please vote for players based on the merits of their performance and the award at hand. Don't vote for your favorite players if they're clearly not worthy.

3) All ballots must be easily readable. Each award has multiple slots on the ballot. Please number your ballot for each award so that the spot you place a player is easily seen. Alternatively, you can list players separated by commas, with your #1 vote being first, #2 second, and so on.

4) You do not have to vote for each award. Just make sure to designate which awards you are voting for. See the following for an example of an organized ballot:
AL MVP
1) Player X
2) Player F
3) Player V
4) Player FH
5) Player YF
6) Player ET
7) Player UV
8) Player AG
9) Player ED
10) Player YI

NL MVP
1) Player Z
2) Player A
3) Player B
4) Player UR
5) Player KF
6) Player AD
7) Player WE
8) Player PL
9) Player CB
10) Player GH

AL Cy Young
1) Player 1
2) Player 2
3) Player 3
4) Player 4
5) Player 5

NL Cy Young
1) Player 6
2) Player 7
3) Player 8
4) Player 9
5) Player 10

or, alternatively:
AL MVP: Player 1, Player 2, Player 3, Player 4, etc.
AL Cy Young: Player 1, Player 2, Player 3
AL ROTY: Player 1, Player 2, Player 3

5) Please fill out the EXACT amount of slots available for any awards you're voting for. For MVP, please list exactly 10 players, no more, no less. For Cy Young, exactly 5 pitchers. For Gold Glove and Silver Slugger, exactly 3 players per position, and so on.

6) Any ballots that don't adhere to these rules will not be counted. I will reply to you if your ballot does not follow the rules, and give you a chance to resubmit it in accordance with the rules.


The awards we will be voting on are as follows. Each award will have two winners, one from each league, so please vote separately for each league in each award. Note that this does not apply to the Loaiza/Anderson/Turnbow awards, which will have one winner from all of MLB rather than one per league. The numbers in parenthesis are the amount of players per league each voter must list on their ballot.

For the 10-slot MVP ballot, a 1st place vote is worth 14 points, a 2nd place vote is worth 9 points, a 3rd place vote is worth 8 points, and so on down to a 10th place vote being worth 1 point.

For the 5-slot Cy Young ballot, a 1st place vote is worth 7 points, a 2nd place vote is worth 4 points, a 3rd place vote is worth 3 points, a 4th place vote is worth 2 points and a 5th place vote is worth 1 point.

For all 3-slot ballots, a 1st place vote is worth 5 points, a 2nd place vote is worth 3 points, and a 3rd place vote is worth 1 point.




Here are the number of votes you need to fill out
One per league:
Most Valuable Player (10)
Cy Young Award (5)
Rookie of the Year (3) (The rookie thresholds are 130 at bats, 50 innings pitched, or 45 days on the active roster of a major league club, excluding time on the disabled list. A player who, at the beginning of the season, is over any of those thresholds is not eligible for the award.)
Relief Pitcher of the Year (3)
Hank Aaron Award (3) (Best offensive performer)
Gold Glove (3 P, 3 C, 3 1B, 3 2B, 3 3B, 3 SS, 3 LF, 3 CF, 3 RF)
Silver Slugger (3 P in NL, 3 DH in AL, 3 C, 3 1B, 3 2B, 3 3B, 3 SS, 3 LF, 3 CF, 3 RF)
Manager of the Year (3)
General Manager of the Year (3)
Comeback Player of the Year (3)
Breakout Position Player of the Year (3)
Breakout Pitcher of the Year (3)

One for MLB:
Esteban Loaiza Award (3)
Brady Anderson Award (3)
Derrick Turnbow Award (3)

Please make note that each separate outfield position will get its own award for Gold Glove. On your ballots, please list a player at the position which he played the most games.

For descriptions of the following six awards - Comeback Player, Breakout Position Player, Breakout Pitcher, Esteban Loaiza, Brady Anderson, Derrick Turnbow - along with possible candidates, please see the Preliminary Discussion Thread (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=755358&highlight=Loaiza). For the Loaiza/Anderson/Turnbow awards, we will only be awarding one player, rather than one player per league, so please vote accordingly. This is due to the limited number of candidates.

Please feel free to post or PM any questions you may have. Thanks all, and I look forward to the voting!

Jeffy25
10-17-2012, 01:03 AM
Here are my votes


AL MVP
1 Mike Trout
2 Robinson Cano
3 Miguel Cabrera
4 Justin Verlander
5 Adrian Beltre
6 Ben Zobrist
7 Austin Jackson
8 Prince Fielder
9 Alex Gordon
10 Edwin Encarnacion


NL MVP
1 Ryan Braun
2 Buster Posey
3 Andrew McCutchen
4 David Wright
5 Yadier Molina
6 Chase Headley
7 Joey Votto
8 Clayton Kershaw
9 Aramis Ramirez
10 R.A. Dickey


AL Cy Young
1 Justin Verlander
2 David Price
3 Chris Sale
4 Jered Weaver
5 Felix Hernandez


NL Cy Young
1 Clayton Kershaw
2 R.A. Dickey
3 Johnny Cueto
4 Gio Gonzalez
5 Jordan Zimmerman

AL Roy
1 Mike Trout
2 Yu Darvish
3 Yoennis Cespedes

NL Roy
1 Bryce Harper
2 Todd Frazier
3 Wade Miley


AL Silver Slugger
C - Joe Mauer
Carlos Santana
AJ Pierzynzki

1B - Prince Fielder
Albert Pujols
Paul Konerko

2B - Robinson Cano
Dustin Pedroia
Ian Kinsler

3B - Miguel Cabrera
Adrian Beltre
Alex Rodriguez

SS - Derek Jeter
Asdrubal Cabrera
Elvis Andrus

LF - Josh Hamilton
Josh Willingham
Alex Gordon

CF - Mike Trout
Austin Jackson
Adam Jones

RF - Ben Zobrist
Shin Soo Choo
Alex Rios

DH - Edwin Encarnacion
Billy Butler
Adam Dunn



NL Silver Slugger

C - Buster Posey
Yadier Molina
Carlos Ruiz

1B - Joey Votto
Allen Craig
Adam LaRoche

2B - Aaron Hill
Marco Scutaro
Rickie Weeks

3B - Chase Headley
David Wright
Aramis Ramirez

SS - Ian Desmond
Jose Reyes
Rimmy Rollins

LF - Ryan Braun
Matt Holliday
Carlos Gonzalez

CF - Andrew McCutchen
Dexter Fowler
Bryce Harper

RF - Giancarlo Stanton
Carlos Beltran
Jason Heyward

AL GG

C - Salvador Perez
Alex Avila
Matt Wieters

1B - Mark Teixeria
Albert Pujols
Adrian Gonzalez

2B - Robinson Cano
Alexi Casilla
Dustin Pedroia

3B - Brett Lawrie
Mike Moustakas
Adrian Beltre

SS - Brendan Ryan
J.J. Hardy
Yunel Escobar

LF - Alex Gordon
Desmond Jennings
David Murphy

CF - Mike Trout
Denard Span
Colby Rasmus

RF - Josh Reddick
Torii Hunter
Ichiro Suzuki

NL Gold Gloves

C - Yadier Molina
Ryan Hanigan
Yasmani Grandal

1B - Joey Votto
Adam LaRoche
Gaby Sanchez

2B - Darwin Barney
Brandon Phillips
Mark Ellis

3B - David Wright
Luis Cruz
Aramis Ramirez

SS - Andrelton Simmons
Clint Barnes
Brandon Crawford

LF - Martin Prado
Ryan Braun
Shane Victorino

CF - Michael Bourn
Bryce Harper
Cameron Maybin

RF - Jason Heyward
Giancarlo Stanton
Carlos Beltran

Hank Aaron Award
AL
Miguel Cabrera
Mike Trout
Prince Fielder

NL
Ryan Braun
Andrew McCutchen
Buster Posey

Relief Pitcher of the Year Award
AL
Jim Johnson
Fernando Rodney
Darren O’Day

NL
Craig Kimbrel
Aroldis Chapman
Steve Chisek

Manager of the Year Award
AL
Buck Showalter
Bob Melvin
Joe Maddon

NL
Davey Johnson
Mike Matheny
Clint Hurdle

General Manager of the Year Award
AL
Billy Beane
Andrew Friedman
Jon Daniels

NL
John Mozilak
Rizzo
Walt Jocketty

Comeback Player of the Year Award
AL
Adam Dunn
Joe Mauer
Jake Peavy

NL
David Wright
Aaron Hill
Alfonso Soriano

Breakout Position Player of the Year Award
AL
Edwin Encarnacion
Austin Jackson
Josh Reddick

NL
Andrew McCutchen
Chase Headley
Buster Posey

Breakout Pitcher of the Year Award
AL
Chris Sale
Jim Johnson
Max Scherzer


NL
Lance Lynn
Chris Capuano
R.A. Dickey

Estaban Loaiza Award
Kyle Lohse

Brady Anderson Award
Justin Ruggiano

Derrick Turnbow Award
Fernando Rodney

Vixious
10-17-2012, 02:40 AM
It's ridiculous to me that Kershaw and Trout are only 24 and 21 years old respectively. :mad:

On topic, I'd like to light-heartedly challenge your choices Jeffy :) You stated that we should separate the breakouts from the Loaiza/Anderson/Turnbow awards, but you've got Encarnacion as both a breakout player (considered to maintain his success) and an Anderson Award winner (expected to fall off).

Jeffy25
10-17-2012, 02:43 AM
It's ridiculous to me that Kershaw and Trout are only 24 and 21 years old respectively. :mad:

On topic, I'd like to light-heartedly challenge your choices Jeffy :) You stated that we should separate the breakouts from the Loaiza/Anderson/Turnbow awards, but you've got Encarnacion as both a breakout player (considered to maintain his success) and an Anderson Award winner (expected to fall off).

Whoops, you nailed me :)


I'll need to change that, thank you very much, and great catch.

Looking forward to your votes as well.

Vixious
10-17-2012, 02:45 AM
You also mentioned that the breakout player of the year should be a non-rookie. Mike Trout is a rookie, good sir. I think that's two catches in as many posts ;)

Brady Anderson Award - Given to the position player who performed at a level completely unexpected for that year by most reasonable predictions. Candidates should be judged by both excellence in the given year and also by the unpredictability of said excellence.

While I like Encarnacion at breakout player of the year because I can see him maintaining his success, I think the epitome of your "Brady Anderson Award" is Torii Hunter. He just had the best season of his life at 37 years of age, and will most likely not repeat that same level of production in 2013, thus perfectly fitting your criteria.

Vixious
10-17-2012, 02:49 AM
Actually you yourself made this post in response to someone nominating Trout as breakout player of the year:


Rookies do not count

As it says in the description

"Given to a non-rookie in each league who"

I couldn't fault you though, it's fairly late at night and a moderator's job comes with a lot of work :)

agureghian
10-17-2012, 02:54 AM
Billy Beane is baffled at your choice for manager of the year, Jeffy.

80m vs 49m

4 rookie SPs, "supposed to lose 100 games", converted several player positions, beat out the 2 time AL champs for the AL west championship in a 3 game of the season sweep.

Jeffy25
10-17-2012, 02:58 AM
Actually you yourself made this post in response to someone nominating Trout as breakout player of the year:



I couldn't fault you though, it's fairly late at night and a moderator's job comes with a lot of work :)

Well **** in a hat. Next time I'll just message you my vote so you can shift through it for corrections lol.

Thanks, I'll revise my own ballot.

Vixious
10-17-2012, 03:09 AM
:laugh2: no sweat, it's clear that you've put a lot of work into this and it's only human to make a mistake here or there.

Next time you guys run this thing (I guess in 2013), I'd also like to maybe see an award for the biggest disappointment that credits the player who fell completely short of expectations.

Guys like Ricky Romero and Timmy Lincecum need a place on this list too!

Krush
10-17-2012, 03:56 AM
I can't believe you put a triple crown winner 3rd on your mvp votes.

Vixious
10-17-2012, 03:58 AM
I can.

Jeffy25
10-17-2012, 04:05 AM
I can't believe you put a triple crown winner 3rd on your mvp votes.

Pretty easy considering he isn't the best all around player in the American League this season

In fact, the other forum I am a part of, nobody has him above second, and most have him third.

You have to completely ignore base running and defense to give Cabrera the MVP, and Cano has just as much argument for being the best all around player in the American League this season as Miggy does.

Just to compare Cano and Miggy

Runs Created
Miggy - 137
Cano - 123

Defensive Runs Saved
Miggy - -4
Cano - 15

Total Net Runs Earned
Miggy - 133
Cano - 139.8

Add to that Cano beats Miggy in fWAR and rWAR.

You have to completely ignore defense to vote Miggy for the MVP. He deserves the Hank Aaron Award, and the Silver Slugger at third base. But there isn't nearly a sufficient enough argument to place him as the MVP, Trout clearly deserves it over him, and there is plenty of argument for Cano to have earned it over him as well.

VRP723
10-17-2012, 11:54 AM
I'm not doing the GG's and SS's, too much work. Also Jeffy it's Bob Melvin, Doug is the GM.

AL MVP
1 Mike Trout
2 Miguel Cabrera
3 Robinson Cano
4 Adrian Beltre
5 Justin Verlander
6 Felix Hernandez
7 Prince Fielder
8 Austin Jackson
9 David Price
10 Edwin Encarnacion


NL MVP
1 Buster Posey
2 Ryan Braun
3 R.A. Dickey
4 Andrew McCutchen
5 David Wright
6 Yadier Molina
7 Clayton Kershaw
8 Chase Headley
9 Gio Gonzalez
10 A.J. Ellis


AL Cy Young
1 Justin Verlander
2 Felix Hernandez
3 David Price
4 Jered Weaver
5 Chris Sale


NL Cy Young
1 R.A. Dickey
2 Clayton Kershaw
3 Gio Gonzalez
4 Matt Cain
5 Johnny Cueto

AL Roy
1 Mike Trout
2 Yu Darvish
3 Yoennis Cespedes

NL Roy
1 Bryce Harper
2 Wade Miley
3 Norichika Aoki

Hank Aaron Award

AL
Miguel Cabrera
Mike Trout
Prince Fielder

NL
Ryan Braun
Andrew McCutchen
Buster Posey

Relief Pitcher of the Year Award

AL
Fernando Rodney
Jim Johnson
Joe Nathan

NL
Craig Kimbrel
Aroldis Chapman
Kenley Jansen

Manager of the Year Award

AL
Bob Melvin
Buck Showalter
Joe Maddon

NL
Davey Johnson
Mike Matheny
Bruce Bochy

General Manager of the Year Award

AL
Billy Beane
Dan Duquette
Brian Cashman

NL
Mike Rizzo
Brian Sabean
Walt Jocketty

Comeback Player of the Year Award

AL
Adam Dunn
Jake Peavy
Torii Hunter

NL
David Wright
Adam Wainwright
Alfonso Soriano

Breakout Position Player of the Year Award

AL
Edwin Encarnacion
Josh Reddick
Kyle Seager

NL
Chase Headley
A.J. Ellis
Allen Craig

Breakout Pitcher of the Year Award
AL
Max Scherzer
Chris Sale
Scott Diamond

NL
R.A. Dickey
Jeff Samardzija
Homer Bailey

Estaban Loaiza Award
Wei-Yin Chen

Brady Anderson Award
Ian Desmond

Derrick Turnbow Award
Fernando Rodney

RTL
10-17-2012, 12:28 PM
PM your votes to yourself, Jeffy!!

Rush
10-17-2012, 01:10 PM
I can't believe you put a triple crown winner 3rd on your mvp votes.

Triple Crown doesn't mean MVP if that's what you're getting at.

DodgerB24
10-17-2012, 02:39 PM
AL MVP
1 Mike Trout
2 Miguel Cabrera
3 Robinson Cano
4 Adrian Beltre
5 Justin Verlander
6 Ben Zobrist
7 Austin Jackson
8 Prince Fielder
9 Edwin Encarnacion
10 Alex Gordon


NL MVP
1 Buster Posey
2 Ryan Braun
3 Andrew McCutchen
4 Yadier Molina
5 David Wright
6 Chase Headley
7 Clayton Kershaw
8 Joey Votto
9 Aramis Ramirez
10 Matt Holliday


AL Cy Young
1 Justin Verlander
2 David Price
3 Felix Hernandez
4 Chris Sale
5 Jered Weaver


NL Cy Young
1 Clayton Kershaw
2 R.A. Dickey
3 Gio Gonzalez
4 Johnny Cueto
5 Matt Cain

AL Roy
1 Mike Trout
2 Yu Darvish
3 Yoennis Cespedes

NL Roy
1 Bryce Harper
2 Wade Miley
3 Tod Frazier

Not going to do GG or SS.

Tkais9009
10-17-2012, 11:09 PM
Nevermind.

natsbats
10-18-2012, 09:41 AM
Wait, I specifically remember JEFFY saying Braun shouldn't win the MVP award, and that was back when he had a moderate lead on major categories over everyone....and now Brauns numbers are a lot closer to his competition for the award, Jeffy wants to give him the award?

Based on what? I think it's pretty clear Posey is more valuable to his team this year than Braun was to his.

They were virtually equal offensive players taking out positional value, so factoring in you're getting that type of offense from a catcher vs a left fielder.....much more value there.

And Posey plays catcher, the most demanding/valuable defensive position in baseball and he plays it well....compared to left field one of the least demanding/valuable.

I'd LOVE to hear Jeffy defend Braun over Posey.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 10:10 AM
lol youre delusional if you think cabrera shouldnt win mvp, especially with the fact that he carried the tigers through to the post season. look at that lineups production all year, go on.. and come back and speak to me.

jesus christ lol
triple crown and they barely made it into the playoffs should mean something, unless ur a homer, than u should jsut leave the MLB forum and stay in your pages forum.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 10:11 AM
Angels missed postseason
Tigers got into the post season

=
Cabrera wins AL MVP.

the trip crown, leading the tigers into the playoffs is just the icing on the cake.

1903
10-18-2012, 11:19 AM
lol youre delusional if you think cabrera shouldnt win mvp, especially with the fact that he carried the tigers through to the post season. look at that lineups production all year, go on.. and come back and speak to me.

jesus christ lol
triple crown and they barely made it into the playoffs should mean something, unless ur a homer, than u should jsut leave the MLB forum and stay in your pages forum.

:laugh:


Angels missed postseason
Tigers got into the post season

=
Cabrera wins AL MVP.

the trip crown, leading the tigers into the playoffs is just the icing on the cake.


So you're saying Trout should get punished becuase the Angels play in a better division? They did finish with a better record than the Tigers.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 11:44 AM
:laugh:




So you're saying Trout should get punished becuase the Angels play in a better division? They did finish with a better record than the Tigers.

I am saying trout's team didnt get to the playoffs, who cares about the record?
Cabrera carried his team throughout the season. maybe you just started watching baseball, so let me break it down for you.
a triple crown is RARE.
there is no argument to be made AGAINST cabrera, end of discussion.
whine/cry about it, shows your lack of baseball knowledge.

you will see that cabrera will win the mvp, and when he does, dont disappear from PSD :)

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 11:45 AM
:laugh:


:facepalm:

just leave if you're laughin over those facts.

VRP723
10-18-2012, 11:48 AM
I am saying trout's team didnt get to the playoffs, who cares about the record?
Cabrera carried his team throughout the season. maybe you just started watching baseball, so let me break it down for you.
a triple crown is RARE.
there is no argument to be made AGAINST cabrera, end of discussion.
whine/cry about it, shows your lack of baseball knowledge.

you will see that cabrera will win the mvp, and when he does, dont disappear from PSD :)

I think most people acknowledge Miggy will the the MVP. He shouldn't though, as he was not more valuable than Trout. Personally I don't care though, and I'm kinda rooting for Miggy just because it'll annoy people.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 11:50 AM
I think most people acknowledge Miggy will the the MVP. He shouldn't though, as he was not more valuable than Trout. Personally I don't care though, and I'm kinda rooting for Miggy just because it'll annoy people.

..... without cabrera, would the tigers reach the post season, yes or no?

they finished only 3 games ahead of the white sox.

so pls answer the question..

1903
10-18-2012, 11:57 AM
I am saying trout's team didnt get to the playoffs, who cares about the record?
Cabrera carried his team throughout the season. maybe you just started watching baseball, so let me break it down for you.
a triple crown is RARE.
there is no argument to be made AGAINST cabrera, end of discussion.
whine/cry about it, shows your lack of baseball knowledge.

you will see that cabrera will win the mvp, and when he does, dont disappear from PSD :)

I would put together a post stating the reasons why Trout deserves to win or how the points you made are useless. However I have a feeling that you won't comprehend the post and just post more gibberish that makes you look foolish.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 11:58 AM
and now all of a sudden the angel's division is supposedly more tougher when the oakland a's had an oriole type season?
i dont buy it.

im honestly baffled that people on here are arguing with a triple crown.. lol makes no sense to me. a triple crown and literally carrying your underachieving team to the playoffs after the pathetic start the tigers went off to, add to the fact that their bullpen is a joke, and the fact that verlander is the only starting pitcher with an era below 3.40.

than you look at the angels, who had a solid closer, granted their sp wasnt all too impressive, but the main thing, is that lineup had albert pujols who had the same amount of hrs and more rbis.

cabrera LEAD his team IN BA, SLUGGIN, AND RBIS, HRS...
added to that, his team went to the post season. LOL i still cant believe this is up for debate. what does trout have on cabrera?

metswon69
10-18-2012, 11:59 AM
..... without cabrera, would the tigers reach the post season, yes or no?

they finished only 3 games ahead of the white sox.

so pls answer the question..

That's not a qualification for MVP though, guys like Andre Dawson have won an MVP being on a last place team.

Trout is the better player and the advanced metrics back that up.

His fWAR is worth almost 4 more wins above replacement than Cabrera's (10.8 to 7.1)

rWAR is the same deal (10.7 to Miggy's 6.9)

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/trout-versus-cabrera-offense-only-context-included/


And Trout still comes out on top. Ignore defense. Ignore things like going first to third on a single, or taking the extra base on a fly ball. Ignore WAR. Trout still wins. This is how amazing his season actually was. Even if you strip away the things that make Mike Trout special, he was still the best offensive performer in the American League this year, even while starting the season in the minors. This isn’t just the best performance of 2012 – it’s one of the best individual performances in the history of baseball.

Mike Trout should win the MVP but it's most likely gonna go to Miggy because the sentiment is in his favor having achieved the triple crown.

VRP723
10-18-2012, 12:03 PM
I would put together a post stating the reasons why Trout deserves to win or how the points you made are useless. However I have a feeling that you won't comprehend the post and just post more gibberish that makes you look foolish.

Yup, not worth the time

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 12:05 PM
That's not a qualification for MVP though, guys like Andre Dawson have won an MVP being on a last place team.

Trout is the better player and the advanced metrics back that up.

His fWAR is worth almost 4 more wins above replacement than Cabrera's (10.8 to 7.1)

rWAR is the same deal (10.7 to Miggy's 6.9)

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/trout-versus-cabrera-offense-only-context-included/



Mike Trout should win the MVP but it's most likely gonna go to Miggy.

i was pointing out the head to head of cabrera's value to the tigers compared to trout's value to the angels.
advanced stats is just one aspect you use to judge who wins the mvp, not the only thing. i get it that trout had a historical season, but its nothin compared to Cabrera's season.

triple crown, and lead his team by HIMSELF to the post season. cabrera is not a defensive player, trout is a much better defensive player. however i think we all know who is the more Valuable player to their team, and that is Cabrera.

just sayin.

1903
10-18-2012, 12:07 PM
you clearly lack common sense, there is a reason why all mlb analysts disagree with you, because your post along with ur points would all be bs.
your garbage sentiment about better record when they had one more game won is just stupid. why not give the mvp to cano than since the yanks have the better record from all teams involved. derp.

read my post u idiot, and dont ever post anything stupid and direct it towards me again.

Your aggressiveness and name calling just proves that you lack any knowledge outside of what most 10 year old baseball fans posses. I will gladly have a discussion with you once you bring your baseball knowledge up to a level that extends beyond baseball cards and SporsCenter.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 12:12 PM
wow you guys cant be serious lol

metswon69
10-18-2012, 12:12 PM
i was pointing out the head to head of cabrera's value to the tigers compared to trout's value to the angels.
advanced stats is just one aspect you use to judge who wins the mvp, not the only thing. i get it that trout had a historical season, but its nothin compared to Cabrera's season.

triple crown, and lead his team by HIMSELF to the post season. cabrera is not a defensive player, trout is a much better defensive player. however i think we all know who is the more Valuable player to their team, and that is Cabrera.

just sayin.

Well the hitting triple crown has been achieved 16 times in MLB history, Trout had the 2nd best rookie season of all time.

I mean how many guys hit over .320, have 30 homers, and steal almost 50 bases from the leadoff spot in their first season. That's much more historical than what Miggy has accomplished.

It might be hard to believe but as great as Miggy has been his fWAR was higher last year (7.1 to 6.9 this year).

He didn't lead that team by himself to the postseason either, they are a very good team that just took a long time to kick it into gear. They have very good SP, and good hitting outside of Miggy.

He was a major catalyst but no teams win on the accomplishments of one player.

Again, i don't know how you could punish Trout for playing in a better division like some of the other posters mentioned.

The Angels did end up finishing with a better record and would have made the playoffs most likely if Trout had been there from the start of the season.

Saying that, team accomplishments have very little to do with the MVP (except when players are comparably valuable which in this case they aren't)

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 12:13 PM
Your aggressiveness and name calling just proves that you lack any knowledge outside of what most 10 year old baseball fans posses. I will gladly have a discussion with you once you bring your baseball knowledge up to a level that extends beyond baseball cards and SporsCenter.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

aww okie dokie.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 12:21 PM
Well the hitting triple crown has been achieved 16 times in MLB history, Trout had the 2nd best rookie season of all time.

I mean how many guys hit over .320, have 30 homers, and steal almost 50 bases from the leadoff spot in their first season. That's much more historical than what Miggy has accomplished.

It might be hard to believe but as great as Miggy has been his fWAR was higher last year (7.1 to 6.9 this year).

He didn't lead that team by himself to the postseason either, they are a very good team that just took a long time to kick it into gear. They have very good SP, and good hitting outside of Miggy.

Again i don't know how you could punish Trout for playing in better division like some of the other posters mentioned.

The Angels did end up finishing with a better record and would have made the playoffs most likely if Trout had been there from the start of the season.

hmm angels had a 3 game lead over the tigers during the final few weeks of the season, and cabrera absolutely demolished the tigers into contention the post season. I do understand trout went off, but there is an award for that, rookie of the year.

having the 2nd best rookie season means absolutely nothin to me, because it is nothin compared to being the mvp. he didnt even lead major offensive categories on his own team..

that is my problem. you can look at advanced stats all you want, along with defensive capabilities, there is no denying that trout is a stud, but cabrera carried that offensively challeneged tigers squad to the playoffs..

you guys make very very good arguments, and have presented a case, however, its still clear to me, cabrera is the most valuable player in the AL..
I get it that all the sabersmetric support trout, and trout steals bases, he has historic numbers for leadoff hitters, thats all swell and dandy, noone is denying that. and i really hope he continues this pace, because i enjoy every second of it, but its undebatable as to who is the more vaulable player to their respective teams.

i can only imagine how pathetic the tigers would be without cabrera.

metswon69
10-18-2012, 12:25 PM
i can only imagine how pathetic the tigers would be without cabrera.

Well if you are going to use that criteria alone, the Tigers would have won 81 games without Cabrera (using WAR neutral players as replacements)

The Angels would have won 78.

Trout is still the more valuable player even if you are using W-L.

metswon69
10-18-2012, 12:26 PM
hmm angels had a 3 game lead over the tigers during the final few weeks of the season, and cabrera absolutely demolished the tigers into contention the post season. I do understand trout went off, but there is an award for that, rookie of the year.

having the 2nd best rookie season means absolutely nothin to me, because it is nothin compared to being the mvp. he didnt even lead major offensive categories on his own team..


When did a player not qualify for both the MVP and ROTY btw?

Trout did lead his team in every meaningful offensive category btw, he lead in BABIP, ISO, OBP, SLG, wOBA, WRC+, etc etc.

He also lead the league in runs scored (126) too having only played 139 games.

It's all about perspective also, yeah he didn't lead the team in traditional stats but again he was hitting like this from the leadoff spot where RBI chances are not as regular. (Not to mention RBIS are a stat of opportunity)

He was the MVP from the very point he came up this season.

Rush
10-18-2012, 02:58 PM
:bla:

Obviously the MVP is a hitting contest. Everyone knows that.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 03:12 PM
Wait, I specifically remember JEFFY saying Braun shouldn't win the MVP award, and that was back when he had a moderate lead on major categories over everyone....and now Brauns numbers are a lot closer to his competition for the award, Jeffy wants to give him the award?

Based on what? I think it's pretty clear Posey is more valuable to his team this year than Braun was to his.

They were virtually equal offensive players taking out positional value, so factoring in you're getting that type of offense from a catcher vs a left fielder.....much more value there.

And Posey plays catcher, the most demanding/valuable defensive position in baseball and he plays it well....compared to left field one of the least demanding/valuable.

I'd LOVE to hear Jeffy defend Braun over Posey.

I said he WON'T win, I think he deserves to win.

I hate Braun, he is one of my least favorite players in baseball. But he deserves to win.

there is also almost no way he does actually win. Voters are pissed about last year, and 'he wasn't on a playoff team' which is a joke.

And everyone loves Posey. Posey is going to win, and honestly, the differences in the two statistically are still rather close.

I voted for Braun, but I hate Braun. He won't win, but I would argue that he deserves to win.

Braun saved 7 runs defensively, and he hit slightly better than Posey, who was mostly a neutral defender at a more demanding position.

The only thing Posey has over Braun is positional adjustment, that's it.


They are very close, but Braun edges out Posey.


Here is a simple explanation
Braun created 10 more runs offensively than Posey
Saved 7 more runs than Posey
And loses about 19 runs for positional adjustment
The difference in the two is quite literally baserunning, which Posey was a negative 5 runs, and Braun was a positive 4 runs.

rocket
10-18-2012, 03:20 PM
The improvement made by Austin Jackson is insane.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 03:24 PM
..... without cabrera, would the tigers reach the post season, yes or no?

they finished only 3 games ahead of the white sox.

so pls answer the question..

Without Trout, the Angels are below .500 and are not playing meangingful baseball in Sept.


You are literally punishing Trout for his team being in the American League West and rewarding Cabrera for being in the American League Central

The Tigers had a worse record with Cabrera in their lineup than the Angels had with Trout in their lineup.

It's an individual award, and you are letting team success decide the outcome of an individual

And yes, the Tigers had a worse record than the Angels, but making the playoffs should somehow matter in this individual award?

Remove Trout from the Angels, and their season would have been over in August. I guess he didn't pitch well enough to win the MVP

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 03:29 PM
i was pointing out the head to head of cabrera's value to the tigers compared to trout's value to the angels.
advanced stats is just one aspect you use to judge who wins the mvp, not the only thing. i get it that trout had a historical season, but its nothin compared to Cabrera's season.

triple crown, and lead his team by HIMSELF to the post season. cabrera is not a defensive player, trout is a much better defensive player. however i think we all know who is the more Valuable player to their team, and that is Cabrera.

just sayin.

you realize that if Cabrera had been in the NL this year, he wouldn't have won the Triple Crown?

Would he still be the MVP to you if he didn't win?

Or if Curtis Granderson had hit 2 more home runs? Or if Trout had literally 3 less outs on the season.

He wouldn't have won the Triple Crown if he posted this season in any of the last 10 seasons, would he still be the MVP?

He wouldn't have the triple crown. Would he still be worthy of the MVP to you?

What about the fact that Cabrera hit better last year than he did this year? Did he deserve the award last season?


You have to realize that this is not a hitting award. It's the most valuable player to the league award. It goes to the player that was the most valuable in every regard of the game.

To choose Cabrera over Trout is to ignore defense and base running, and to put all of your stock in two things. The sentiment of the Triple Crown, which only measures 3 stats which don't tell you very much about a player. And that the Tigers, who had a worse record than the Angels, made the playoffs because they were in a weaker division.


Also, no player can lead his team to the post-season by himself. It's lunacy to say one can. Cabrera had 11% of his teams plate appearances this season and only had a putout in an average of 4 times per game.

That's 23 outs every game that the Tigers had to make that Cabrera had nothing to do with, and 5500 PA that Cabrera had nothing to do with.

Literally
Cabrera 697 PA
Tigers 6119 PA


But he carried them to the post-season BY HIMSELF?

It's impossible, no player in baseball can carry a team to the post-season. If you want to say they can though, then shouldn't Evan Longoria get the AL MVP last season for walking his team into the post-season on game 162 of last year?

Austin Jackson, Doug Fister, Justin Verlander your CY Young winner, Alex Avila, and others helped carry this team.......oh and Prince Fielder.

natsbats
10-18-2012, 03:56 PM
I said he WON'T win, I think he deserves to win.

I hate Braun, he is one of my least favorite players in baseball. But he deserves to win.

there is also almost no way he does actually win. Voters are pissed about last year, and 'he wasn't on a playoff team' which is a joke.

And everyone loves Posey. Posey is going to win, and honestly, the differences in the two statistically are still rather close.

I voted for Braun, but I hate Braun. He won't win, but I would argue that he deserves to win.

Braun saved 7 runs defensively, and he hit slightly better than Posey, who was mostly a neutral defender at a more demanding position.

The only thing Posey has over Braun is positional adjustment, that's it.


They are very close, but Braun edges out Posey.


Here is a simple explanation
Braun created 10 more runs offensively than Posey
Saved 7 more runs than Posey
And loses about 19 runs for positional adjustment
The difference in the two is quite literally baserunning, which Posey was a negative 5 runs, and Braun was a positive 4 runs.

I don't agree at all that he saved 7 more runs than Posey. What's that even based on? UZR?

Posey being an average catcher (He's not, he's a top 10 defensive catcher) while Braun being a very good left fielder. How in the world does Braun save 7 more runs? I don't get that at all when catcher is arguably the most important defensive position and Left Field arguably the least important.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 04:40 PM
I don't agree at all that he saved 7 more runs than Posey. What's that even based on? UZR?
DRS

Remember, it is compared to the players contemporaries at their position.

Not just who is the better defender overall.

Braun compared to the league average left fielder this year saved 7 runs defensively

Posey, compared to the league average catcher, was basically a neutral defender. 0 Defensive Runs saved at Catcher, and a negative 1 at first base.

Remember, he is being compared to all those defensive backup catchers, Yadier Molina, Miguel Montero, Matt Wieters and so forth.

He is considered a league average defensive catcher, to slightly better than league average.



Posey being an average catcher (He's not, he's a top 10 defensive catcher)
Not according to a number of metrics

Framing, Caught Stealing, blocking pitches, wild pitches and passed balls and the number saved

He has improved defensively, but there are a lot of guys ahead of him still defensively.



while Braun being a very good left fielder. How in the world does Braun save 7 more runs? I don't get that at all when catcher is arguably the most important defensive position and Left Field arguably the least important.

you have to remember that you are compared to your position, Braun isn't just automatically compared to Posey. They play different positions, that's why below that there is the positive 20 runs that Posey gets for positional adjustment

Braun saved 7 more runs than the league average left fielder
Posey saved 0 runs more than the league average catcher

And then Catchers get a positional adjustment of +20 over a left fielder, which is worth about 2 wins by itself.

Braun created 10 more runs offensively
Braun created 10 more runs in regards to base running
Braun saved 7 more runs for his position
Posey get a positional adjustment of 20 runs

Small edge to Braun


I hate that you are making me defend Ryan Braun who I ****ing hate

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 04:43 PM
Without Trout, the Angels are below .500 and are not playing meangingful baseball in Sept.


You are literally punishing Trout for his team being in the American League West and rewarding Cabrera for being in the American League Central

The Tigers had a worse record with Cabrera in their lineup than the Angels had with Trout in their lineup.

It's an individual award, and you are letting team success decide the outcome of an individual

And yes, the Tigers had a worse record than the Angels, but making the playoffs should somehow matter in this individual award?

Remove Trout from the Angels, and their season would have been over in August. I guess he didn't pitch well enough to win the MVP

explain pls. they had a solid closer, and albert pujols was the main offensive arsenal. so where exactly would the angels be worse off than tigers if you remove trout and cabrera?

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 04:47 PM
you realize that if Cabrera had been in the NL this year, he wouldn't have won the Triple Crown?

Would he still be the MVP to you if he didn't win?

Or if Curtis Granderson had hit 2 more home runs? Or if Trout had literally 3 less outs on the season.

He wouldn't have won the Triple Crown if he posted this season in any of the last 10 seasons, would he still be the MVP?

He wouldn't have the triple crown. Would he still be worthy of the MVP to you?

What about the fact that Cabrera hit better last year than he did this year? Did he deserve the award last season?


You have to realize that this is not a hitting award. It's the most valuable player to the league award. It goes to the player that was the most valuable in every regard of the game.

To choose Cabrera over Trout is to ignore defense and base running, and to put all of your stock in two things. The sentiment of the Triple Crown, which only measures 3 stats which don't tell you very much about a player. And that the Tigers, who had a worse record than the Angels, made the playoffs because they were in a weaker division.


Also, no player can lead his team to the post-season by himself. It's lunacy to say one can. Cabrera had 11% of his teams plate appearances this season and only had a putout in an average of 4 times per game.

That's 23 outs every game that the Tigers had to make that Cabrera had nothing to do with, and 5500 PA that Cabrera had nothing to do with.

Literally
Cabrera 697 PA
Tigers 6119 PA


But he carried them to the post-season BY HIMSELF?

It's impossible, no player in baseball can carry a team to the post-season. If you want to say they can though, then shouldn't Evan Longoria get the AL MVP last season for walking his team into the post-season on game 162 of last year?

Austin Jackson, Doug Fister, Justin Verlander your CY Young winner, Alex Avila, and others helped carry this team.......oh and Prince Fielder.

why would you even say that? if cabrera played 50 years ago, he wouldnt have lead in any major offensive category. thats not my problem, because the fact of the matter is he did win a triple crown.

end of story. that cant be taken away. and using sabermetrics doesnt take that away from him because that is not the only thing ppl use to vote for mvps.
i dont think you guys realize how crazy it is to lead your team in every offensive category except obp, and to also come clutch in key moments especially during the last few weeks of the season when it looked like the tigers were out of contention.

i get it, you guys love advanced stats, and that trout had a phenomenal season, and he should be duly rewarded, trust me i respect that, but im sorry, cabrera lead that team in rbis, hrs, batting average, slugging.

if that means nothing to you than obv this discussion is pointless.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 04:48 PM
and historically that division has always been a joke, the A's were never a threat until they came out of nowhere this season.
i am not saying the central is any better, but you get my point.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 04:48 PM
explain pls. they had a solid closer, and albert pujols was the main offensive arsenal. so where exactly would the angels be worse off than tigers if you remove trout and cabrera?

Trout was significantly more valuable offensively than Pujols this season

By a good amount.


you are removing each player as if they are sitting in a vacuum, as if each team was neutral without both players, and that each player is providing them some exact amount of value above and beyond that neutral amount

That isn't the case. Neither player should be rewarded nor punished based on who else is on their team. This is an individual award, team value and team accomplishments mean absolutely nothing.

But just to clarify

With Mike Trout in the lineup the Angels went 81-58 for a .583 winning percentage
With Miguel Cabrera in the lineup the Tigers went 87-74 for a .540 winning percentage

It's silly to withhold an individual award from a player because his team didn't pitch as well or the other 8 guys on his team didn't hit as well or play as good of defense as a different players team.

And all of this still glosses over the fact that the Angels had a better record than the Tigers, and only missed the playoffs vs the Tigers because the Tigers were lucky to play in a division without any 90 game winners, while the Agnels were looking up at 2.

Trout was the best player in the American League this season. Rather easily too.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 04:51 PM
ill give you that the wins and losses isnt fair because of the pitching, but if you go by defense only that seems rather unfair especially when historically the al mvp was always basically an offensive outburst award. defense was never looked upon.

Im confused, because usually the person with the most hrs win.

they never look at sabermetrics.. explain in further detail, because i myself dont look at sabermetrics, and im curious as to why you guys only look at that.

natsbats
10-18-2012, 05:07 PM
DRS

Remember, it is compared to the players contemporaries at their position.

Not just who is the better defender overall.

Braun compared to the league average left fielder this year saved 7 runs defensively

Posey, compared to the league average catcher, was basically a neutral defender. 0 Defensive Runs saved at Catcher, and a negative 1 at first base.

Remember, he is being compared to all those defensive backup catchers, Yadier Molina, Miguel Montero, Matt Wieters and so forth.

He is considered a league average defensive catcher, to slightly better than league average.



Not according to a number of metrics

Framing, Caught Stealing, blocking pitches, wild pitches and passed balls and the number saved

He has improved defensively, but there are a lot of guys ahead of him still defensively.




you have to remember that you are compared to your position, Braun isn't just automatically compared to Posey. They play different positions, that's why below that there is the positive 20 runs that Posey gets for positional adjustment

Braun saved 7 more runs than the league average left fielder
Posey saved 0 runs more than the league average catcher

And then Catchers get a positional adjustment of +20 over a left fielder, which is worth about 2 wins by itself.

Braun created 10 more runs offensively
Braun created 10 more runs in regards to base running
Braun saved 7 more runs for his position
Posey get a positional adjustment of 20 runs

Small edge to Braun


I hate that you are making me defend Ryan Braun who I ****ing hate


I understand what you're saying, but this is what your numbers come down to:

The difference between Posey and Braun when you factor in defense and position adjustment is virtually 13 runs difference, in favor of Posey.

I just do not agree with that. I think their is much more value in having the type of bat Posey brings playing catcher while also being a league average level (your words) defender over a very very slightly better offensive player at left field who is a good outfielder.

You have almost all catchers having a 115 wRC+ or under....only a select few are above that....while left fielders are pretty much all at or above that aside from a select few.

The difference in value both in terms of defensive value per their respective positions and offensive value per their respective positions is much more than 13 total runs difference over a course of a year.

It's super, super super rare to have a catcher have that type of bat who is also competent on defense.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 05:07 PM
why would you even say that? if cabrera played 50 years ago, he wouldnt have lead in any major offensive category. thats not my problem, because the fact of the matter is he did win a triple crown.
Which is a pretty pointless platitude

Ted Williams won it twice, and in the two years he won, he didn't win the MVP.

It's a neat accomplishment, but it depends on the league as a whole playing at a specific level in very specific stats that don't measure much and saying it means something.

It's like saying Trout should win a Triple Crown for leading the league in Stolen Bases, Runs Scored, and OPS+

It's just picking 3 stats and saying they mean something.

But it ignores what they actually measure.


end of story. that cant be taken away. and using sabermetrics doesnt take that away from him because that is not the only thing ppl use to vote for mvps.
No one is trying to take anything away from him. He won the Triple Crown

It does not mean he should win the MVP. They are separate accomplishments.



i dont think you guys realize how crazy it is to lead your team in every offensive category except obp, and to also come clutch in key moments especially during the last few weeks of the season when it looked like the tigers were out of contention.

Trout did it too, you do realize that right?


i get it, you guys love advanced stats, and that trout had a phenomenal season, and he should be duly rewarded, trust me i respect that, but im sorry, cabrera lead that team in rbis, hrs, batting average, slugging.
What about defense? What about base running? The MVP is not just a hitting award, and the stats you just shared are hopelessly flawed, and it's easy to explain how and why.

It's crazy that Cabrera was better last year than he was this season, but because he won the Triple Crown, everyone thinks he deserves the MVP now, but not last year.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 05:08 PM
and historically that division has always been a joke, the A's were never a threat until they came out of nowhere this season.
i am not saying the central is any better, but you get my point.

So why are you rewarding Cabrera for being in the playoffs and punishing Trout for not being in the playoffs?

If there were no divisions, Trout would have been in the playoffs, and Cabrera would not.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-18-2012, 05:16 PM
So why are you rewarding Cabrera for being in the playoffs and punishing Trout for not being in the playoffs?

If there were no divisions, Trout would have been in the playoffs, and Cabrera would not.

oh no i wasnt punishing, i was just emphasizing how those stats dont include the players ability to perform while under intense pressure. the last few weeks the tigers were fighting back in and cabrera was on an absolute tear. he wasnt in contention for the triple crown until his tear.

i do see what you are saying about trout tho. and pujols lead the angels in rbis, and tied with trout for hrs btw, but what trout did is phenomenal. i still dont think its mvp caliber because of cabreras season and value to the tigers, but your points are def valid, and if either won i personally wouldnt have a problem.

if you could also explain what sabermetrics involve so i have a better idea and i may be comfortable in using it to judging some players, i would be very grateful. thanks

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 05:30 PM
ill give you that the wins and losses isnt fair because of the pitching, but if you go by defense only that seems rather unfair especially when historically the al mvp was always basically an offensive outburst award. defense was never looked upon.

Since when?

We have several fantastic defensive players that edged out the award over others.

Plus, you shouldn't reward based on history being positive or negative. That's appealing to an authority that existed before today's information and knowledge.

That's like saying we should elect a president now based on what John Tyler did. It's just silly.

But to add to all of this.

Both players were fairly equal offensively, edge goes to Cabrera.

But Trout saved 24 runs defensively, at at centerfield.

Cabrera saved a negative 4 runs defensively, at third base

This is a 30 run difference. Cabrera had to really out hit trout to make up those 30 runs.

As for offensive production

Cabrera created 137 runs this season
Trout created 121 runs

So +16 for Cabrera

But he is nearly 30 runs worse defensively, and another 15 runs worse in regards to base running.

To give Cabrera the MVP is to completely ignore that base running and defense matter in the game of baseball.



Im confused, because usually the person with the most hrs win.
What?

That's not true at all.

The last time the MVP winner lead the league in home runs was Pujols in 09, and before that it was A-Rod in 07

That's 2 of the last 10 MVP awards



they never look at sabermetrics.. explain in further detail, because i myself dont look at sabermetrics, and im curious as to why you guys only look at that.

It's simply more information, and plenty of voters like Rob Neyer look at Sabr-metrics.

It's more information, that's all advanced statistics are. More information.

If you don't look very deep, Cabrera was on a playoff team, and he won the Triple Crown. So on the surface. He sounds like the MVP

But Trout played a harder defensive position, played it vastly better (gold glover vs an iron glover), was a great base runner, only lacked in RBI's because he hit leadoff vs batting with Austin Jackson on base every other plate appearance, and when you adjust to the values of each base hit, Trout is much closer offensively to Cabrera than people might realize (i.e. all those triples have a lot of value, as well the unintentional walks).

Sabr-stats is just more information. Love to have more information when making any kind of decision.

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 05:33 PM
I understand what you're saying, but this is what your numbers come down to:

The difference between Posey and Braun when you factor in defense and position adjustment is virtually 13 runs difference, in favor of Posey.

I just do not agree with that. I think their is much more value in having the type of bat Posey brings playing catcher while also being a league average level (your words) defender over a very very slightly better offensive player at left field who is a good outfielder.

That's basically 1.3 wins that it gives Posey over Braun, that's significant. Especially when an all-star caliber player is just a 5 WAR player.

But I have long felt that catchers positional adjustment was never factored in correctly.


It's super, super super rare to have a catcher have that type of bat who is also competent on defense.

What about Yadier?

Would you place Yadier over Braun for MVP?

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 05:41 PM
oh no i wasnt punishing, i was just emphasizing how those stats dont include the players ability to perform while under intense pressure. the last few weeks the tigers were fighting back in and cabrera was on an absolute tear. he wasnt in contention for the triple crown until his tear.
WPA
Win Probability Added
this is the cumulative measure of how much an individual helps his team win based on the situations they are put in

For example, Matt Carpenter had the highest WPA in yesterday's Cards/Giants game with a .210 because his 2 run home run took the Cards from a deficit to the lead. It's completely based on the teams win probability when the batter comes to the plate vs what the batters teams win probability is after his plate appearance

Trout - 5.32
Cabrera - 4.82

He was more 'clutch' this season than Cabrera.




if you could also explain what sabermetrics involve so i have a better idea and i may be comfortable in using it to judging some players, i would be very grateful. thanks
We have a whole sub section dedicated to sabr-metrics, but I invite you to learn as much as you can. It's great information, and it's never-ending. There is so much fascinating information available to you, as well several great websites.

fangraphs
baseball-info solutions
Baseball-reference has a glossary section
Hardball times
baseball prospectus
to name a few


Some good starter stats would be wOBA (weighted on base average) you can learn about it here
http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/woba/
and wRC+

Use fangraphs glossary section right there to learn more. That can help lead you in the right direction, and use Fangraphs Leaders board page there to see

natsbats
10-18-2012, 06:01 PM
That's basically 1.3 wins that it gives Posey over Braun, that's significant. Especially when an all-star caliber player is just a 5 WAR player.

But I have long felt that catchers positional adjustment was never factored in correctly.



What about Yadier?

Would you place Yadier over Braun for MVP?

Yadier is clearly a tier, arguably two below as a complete offensive player.

However Yadier is probably the most valuable defender in the league, so that makes up for some of it, if not all of it.

If you told me before the year that I'd get this years Molina or I could have this years Braun, I'd flip a coin and be happy with either choice.

RTL
10-18-2012, 07:13 PM
Not according to a number of metrics

Framing, Caught Stealing, blocking pitches, wild pitches and passed balls and the number saved

Posey has less passed balls and WP than Molina, the top defender in the game. Posey is definitely top 10. Using CS out of context isn't going to make your case.

Quinnsanity
10-18-2012, 07:26 PM
AL MVP
1 Mike Trout
2 Miguel Cabrera
3 Robinson Cano
4 Adrian Beltre
5 Justin Verlander
6 Felix Hernandez
7 Prince Fielder
8 Austin Jackson
9 David Price
10 Edwin Encarnacion


NL MVP
1 Buster Posey
2 Ryan Braun
3 R.A. Dickey
4 Andrew McCutchen
5 David Wright
6 Yadier Molina
7 Clayton Kershaw
8 Chase Headley
9 Gio Gonzalez
10 A.J. Ellis


AL Cy Young
1 Justin Verlander
2 Felix Hernandez
3 David Price
4 Jered Weaver
5 Chris Sale


NL Cy Young
1 R.A. Dickey
2 Clayton Kershaw
3 Gio Gonzalez
4 Matt Cain
5 Johnny Cueto

AL Roy
1 Mike Trout
2 Yu Darvish
3 Yoennis Cespedes

NL Roy
1 Bryce Harper
2 Wade Miley
3 Norichika Aoki

Jeffy25
10-18-2012, 08:06 PM
Again, if you don't send me your ballot in a PM, it will not count.

LASportsFan1996
10-19-2012, 01:13 AM
AL MVP
1 Mike Trout
2 Miguel Cabrera
3 Robinson Cano
4 Adrian Beltre
5 Justin Verlander
6 Felix Hernandez
7 Prince Fielder
8 Austin Jackson
9 David Price
10 Edwin Encarnacion


NL MVP
1 Buster Posey
2 Ryan Braun
3 R.A. Dickey
4 Andrew McCutchen
5 David Wright
6 Yadier Molina
7 Clayton Kershaw
8 Chase Headley
9 Gio Gonzalez
10 A.J. Ellis


AL Cy Young
1 Justin Verlander
2 Felix Hernandez
3 David Price
4 Jered Weaver
5 Chris Sale


NL Cy Young
1 R.A. Dickey
2 Clayton Kershaw
3 Gio Gonzalez
4 Matt Cain
5 Johnny Cueto

AL Roy
1 Mike Trout
2 Yu Darvish
3 Yoennis Cespedes

NL Roy
1 Bryce Harper
2 Wade Miley
3 Norichika Aoki

:love:

YouCan'tBeatLA
10-19-2012, 01:24 AM
:love:

He copy-pasted VRP's votes. :laugh2:

VRP723
10-19-2012, 11:59 AM
He copy-pasted VRP's votes. :laugh2:

Lol

RangersMets
10-19-2012, 12:22 PM
Robert Alan Dickey will suck your **** dry and throw a complete game at the same time.

Give the man the award.

DodgerB24
10-19-2012, 03:17 PM
Robert Alan Dickey will suck your **** dry and throw a complete game at the same time.

Give the man the award.

Clayton.Edward.Kershaw. says hold up!

Driven
10-20-2012, 05:20 PM
..... without cabrera, would the tigers reach the post season, yes or no?

they finished only 3 games ahead of the white sox.

so pls answer the question..
Without Adam Jones, the Orioles don't make the postseason.

Adam Jones for MVP

Victimize
10-20-2012, 05:48 PM
AL MVP
1 Mike Trout
2 Miguel Cabrera
3 Robinson Cano
4 Justin Verlander
5 Adrian Beltre
6 Austin Jackson
7 Ben Zobrist
8 Edwin Encarnacion
9 Prince Fielder
10 Josh Hamilton

NL MVP
1 Ryan Braun
2 Buster Posey
3 Andrew McCutchen
4 Yadier Molina
5 Joey Votto
6 Chase Headley
7 David Wright
8 Clayton Kershaw
9 Aramis Ramirez
10 R.A. Dickey


AL Cy Young
1 Justin Verlander
2 David Price
3 Felix Hernandez
4 Chris Sale
5 Jered Weaver


NL Cy Young
1 Clayton Kershaw
2 R.A. Dickey
3 Stephen Strasburg
4 Gio Gonzalez
5 Johny Cueto

AL ROY
1 Mike Trout
2 Yoennis Cespedes
3 Yu Darvish

NL ROY
1 Wade Miley
2 Bryce Harper
3 Todd Frazier

Comeback Player of the Year
AL
Alex Rios
Joe Mauer
Jake Peavy

NL
David Wright
Aaron Hill
Alfonso Soriano

Breakout Position Player of the Year
AL
Edwin Encarnacion
Austin Jackson
Josh Reddick

NL
Chase Headley
Buster Posey
Andrew Mccutchen

Breakout Pitcher of the Year
AL
Chris Sale
Max Scherzer
Jarrod Parker

NL
Wade Miley
R.A Dickey
Lance Lynn

Estaban Loaiza Award
Hiroki Kuroda

Brady Anderson Award
Justin Ruggiano

Derrick Turnbow Award
Fernando Rodney

JesusWears24
10-20-2012, 06:03 PM
Cano over Carbrera....U lost all credibility.

jej
10-20-2012, 06:14 PM
Considering the Tigers have 4 people in mos people top ten, how did Cabrera "carry" the Tigers to the playoffs?

jej
10-20-2012, 06:15 PM
Cano over Carbrera....U lost all credibility.

Defense matters too. Guess you don't understand that tho.

Kings Analyst
10-20-2012, 06:53 PM
Defense matters too. Guess you don't understand that tho.

Unfortunately most people don't consider defense when it comes to the award which sucks.

metswon69
10-20-2012, 07:04 PM
Regardless of the unreliability of defensive metrics, Trout's superior defense at a more important position should mean something.

The fact is he is the better baserunner, stole 12X the amount of bases, is worlds better defensively, and had similar offensive value from the leadoff spot.

All of those things make him the MVP imo.

GA16Angels
10-20-2012, 07:58 PM
Here are my votes:

AL MVP
1) Mike Trout
2) Miguel Cabrera
3) Adrian Beltre
4) Robinson Cano
5) David Price
6) Justin Verlander
7) Adam Jones
8) Josh Hamilton
9) Austin Jackson
10) Edwin Encarnacion

NL MVP
1) Buster Posey
2) Ryan Braun
3) Andrew McCutchen
4) Yadier Molina
5) RA Dickey
6) David Wright
7) Chase Headley
8) Clayton Kershaw
9) Ian Desmond
10) Ryan Zimmerman

AL Cy Young
1) David Price
2) Justin Verlander
3) Jered Weaver
4) Chris Sale
5) Felix Hernandez

NL Cy Young
1) RA Dickey
2) Clayton Kershaw
3) Gio Gonzalez
4) Matt Cain
5) Johnny Cueto

AL ROY
1) Mike Trout
2) Yoenis Cespedes
3) Yu Darvish

NL ROY
1) Bryce Harper
2) Wad Miley
3) Norichika Aoki

Hank Aaron Award

AL
1) Miguel Cabrera
2) Mike Trout
3) Adrian Beltre

NL
1) Ryan Braun
2) Andrew McCutchen
3) Buster Posey

Relief Pitcher of the Year

AL
1) Fernando Rodney
2) Jim Johnson
3) Rafael Soriano

NL
1) Aroldis Chapman
2) Craig Kimbrel
3) Jonathan Papelbon

Manager of the Year

AL
1) Buck Showalter
2) Bob Melvin
3) Joe Maddon

NL
1) Davey Johnson
2) Mike Matheny
3) Dusty Baker

Gneral Manager of the Year

AL
1) Billy Beane
2) Jon Daniels
3) Jerry Dipoto

NL
1) Mike Rizzo
2) John Mozeliak
3) Walt Jockety

Comeback Player of the Year

AL
1) Jake Peavy
2) Adam Dunn
3) Kendrys Morales

NL
Adam Wainwright
Aaron Hill
Alfonso Soriano

Breakout Position Player of the Year

AL
1) Mike Trout
2) Edwin Encarnacion
3) Austin Jackson

NL
1) Andrew McCutchen
2) Chase Headley
3) Ian Desmond

Breakout Pitcher of the Year

AL
1) Chris Sale
2) Max Scherzer
3) Jim Johnson

NL
1) RA Dickey
2) Jordan Zimmerman
3) Wade Miley

Esteban Loaiza Award
Jason Vargas

Brady Anderson Award
Justin Ruggiano

Derek Turnbow Award
Fernando Rodney

Silver Slugger

AL
C- Joe Mauer
AJ Pierzynski
Carlos Santana

1B- Prince Fielder
Albert Pujols
Paul Konerko

2B- Robinson Cano
Dustin Pedroia
Ian Kinsler

3B- Miguel Cabrera
Adrian Beltre
Alex Rodriguez

SS- Derek Jeter
Erick Aybar
Elvis Andrus

LF- Josh Hamilton
Alex Gordon
Yoenis Cespedes

CF- Mike Trout
Austin Jackson
Adam Jones

RF- Alex Rios
Torii Hunter
Shin-Soo Choo

DH- Edwin Encarnacion
Billy Butler
Chris Davis

NL
C- Buster Posey
Yadier Molina
Miguel Montero

1B- Joey Votto
Allen Craig
Adam LaRoche

2B- Aaron Hill
Marco Scutaro
Neil Walker

3B- David Wright
Chase Headley
Aramis Ramirez

SS- Ian Desmond
Jose Reyes
Starlin Castro

LF- Ryan Braun
Carlos Gonzalez
Matt Holliday

CF- Andrew McCutchen
Dexter Fowler
Bryce Harper

RF- Giancarlo Stanton
Carlos Beltran
Andre Ethier

Jeffy25
10-21-2012, 07:30 PM
Defense matters too. Guess you don't understand that tho.

Yeah, being a +16 defensive second basement should automatically keep him behind a -4 defensive third basemen.

DR_1
10-21-2012, 07:41 PM
How are people not putting Rizzo for NL ROY or at least top 3

Jeffy25
10-21-2012, 07:44 PM
How are people not putting Rizzo for NL ROY or at least top 3

Because he wasn't better than or as good as Frazier, Miley, and Harper

You also have Yonder Alonso, Aoki, Pacheco, and Rosario and you could easily argue for Matt Carpenter.

All of these guys deserve votes over Rizzo IMO.

DR_1
10-21-2012, 07:47 PM
Because he wasn't better than or as good as Frazier, Miley, and Harper

You also have Yonder Alonso, Aoki, Pacheco, and Rosario and you could easily argue for Matt Carpenter.

All of these guys deserve votes over Rizzo IMO.

I would take Rizzo over Harper and those other 2 all day :shrug:

Yes I am a Cubs fan but he did play some great ball this year. He's also got a solid glove as well.

Jeffy25
10-21-2012, 07:51 PM
I would take Rizzo over Harper and those other 2 all day :shrug:

Yes I am a Cubs fan but he did play some great ball this year. He's also got a solid glove as well.

Just Harper

597 PA, 86 Runs Created, .352 wOBA, 121 wRC+, played great defense in center field

Rizzo
368 PA, 52 Runs Created, .349 wOBA, 116 wRC+, played average defense at first

Harper hit better than Rizzo, in 200 more PA, and played defense and ran the bases better.

I can't see any reason to vote for Rizzo over Harper for ROY

DR_1
10-21-2012, 09:50 PM
Oh well that's what I get for not paying attention the last month of the season :laugh2:

I still think he is worthy of serious consideration though, it's an insult to Rizzo that he's not even being considered.

jej
10-21-2012, 09:58 PM
Why do we have to consider the 7th place guy when 1-3 are the only ones with a chance at it?

Jeffy25
10-21-2012, 10:01 PM
Why do we have to consider the 7th place guy when 1-3 are the only ones with a chance at it?

Are you asking why the MVP ballot has 10 slots?

jej
10-21-2012, 10:20 PM
No, I was talking to drose saying he thinks Rizzo should be getting talked about more.

MetsFanatic19
10-22-2012, 04:19 PM
Oh well that's what I get for not paying attention the last month of the season :laugh2:

I still think he is worthy of serious consideration though, it's an insult to Rizzo that he's not even being considered.

Not really, this year's rookie class is just superb. He's not good enough to win it, be in the top 3, or maybe even be in the top 5.

He played solid this year, but other rookies played better.

Nomar
10-22-2012, 07:35 PM
AL MVP
1 Mike Trout
2 Miguel Cabrera
3 Robinson Cano
4 Adrian Beltre
5 Edwin Encarnacion
6 Justin Verlander
7 Alex Gordon
8 Felix Hernandez
9 Ben Zobrist
10 Josh Hamilton


NL MVP
1 Buster Posey
2 Yadier Molina
3 Andrew McCutchen
4 Ryan Braun
5 Chase Headley
6 David Wright
7 Giancarlo Stanton
8 Joey Votto
9 Clayton Kershaw
10 Aramis Ramirez

AL Cy Young
1 Justin Verlander
2 David Price
3 Chris Sale
4 Felix Hernandez
5 Jake Peavy

NL Cy Young
1 Clayton Kershaw
2 R.A. Dickey
3 Johnny Cueto
4 Gio Gonzalez
5 Craig Kimbrel

AL Roy
1 Mike Trout
2 Yu Darvish
3 Yoennis Cespedes

NL Roy
1 Wade Miley
2 Bryce Harper
3 Todd Frazier


AL Silver Slugger
C - Joe Mauer
Carlos Santana
AJ Pierzynzki

1B - Prince Fielder
Albert Pujols
Paul Konerko

2B - Robinson Cano
Ben Zobrist
Dustin Pedroia

3B - Miguel Cabrera
Adrian Beltre
Kyle Seager

SS - Derek Jeter
Asdrubal Cabrera
Erick Aybar

LF - Josh Hamilton
Josh Willingham
Yoenis Cespedes

CF - Mike Trout
Adam Jones
Austin Jackson

RF - Alex Rios
Josh Reddick
Shin-Soo Choo

DH - Edwin Encarnacion
Billy Butler
Adam Dunn



NL Silver Slugger

P - Mike Leake
Stephen Strasburg
Cole Hamels

C - Buster Posey
Yadier Molina
Carlos Ruiz

1B - Joey Votto
Allen Craig
Adam LaRoche

2B - Aaron Hill
Jose Altuve
Neil Walker

3B - Chase Headley
David Wright
Aramis Ramirez

SS - Ian Desmond
Jose Reyes
Rimmy Rollins

LF - Ryan Braun
Matt Holliday
Alfonso Soriano

CF - Andrew McCutchen
Dexter Fowler
Bryce Harper

RF - Giancarlo Stanton
Carlos Beltran
Jay Bruce

AL GG

C - Matt Wieters
Salvador Perez
Alex Avile

1B - Mark Teixeria
Albert Pujols
Adrian Gonzalez

2B - Dustin Pedroia
Robinson Cano
Alexi Casilla

3B - Mike Moustakas
Adrian Beltre
Alberto Callaspo

SS - Brendan Ryan
J.J. Hardy
Elvis Andrus

LF - Alex Gordon
Desmond Jennings
David Murphy

CF - Mike Trout
Denard Span
Jarrod Dyson

RF - Josh Reddick
Torii Hunter
Ichiro Suzuki

NL Gold Gloves

C - Yadier Molina
Ryan Hanigan
Miguel Montero

1B - Joey Votto
Anthony Rizzo
Gaby Sanchez

2B - Darwin Barney
Brandon Phillips
Danny Espinosa

3B - David Wright
Luis Cruz
Aramis Ramirez

SS - Zack Cozart
Clint Barnes
Brandon Crawford
(Simmons if he played a bit more)

LF - Martin Prado
Gerardo Parra
Shane Victorino

CF - Michael Bourn
Bryce Harper
Cameron Maybin

RF - Jason Heyward
Giancarlo Stanton
Brian Bogusevic


Relief Pitcher of the Year Award
AL
Jim Johnson
Fernando Rodney
Ryan Cook

NL
Craig Kimbrel
Aroldis Chapman
Jonathan Papelbon

Manager of the Year Award
AL
Buck Showalter
Bob Melvin
Joe Maddon

NL
Davey Johnson
Mike Matheny
Clint Hurdle

General Manager of the Year Award
AL
Billy Beane
Andrew Friedman
Ben Cherrington

NL
John Mozilak
Mike Rizzo
Walt Jocketty

Comeback Player of the Year Award
AL
Adam Dunn
Joe Mauer
Jake Peavy

NL
Carlos Ruiz
Aaron Hill
Alfonso Soriano

Breakout Position Player of the Year Award
AL
Edwin Encarnacion
Ben Revere
Josh Reddick

NL
A.J. Ellis
Chase Headley
Angel Pagan

Breakout Pitcher of the Year Award
AL
Chris Sale
Jim Johnson
Max Scherzer


NL
Lance Lynn
Chris Capuano
R.A. Dickey

Jeffy25
10-23-2012, 12:19 AM
Just a reminder that all voters have until the middle of next week to get their votes in, and just a reminder, post-season performances don't matter one bit in the voting. Just to be clear.

rockbottom2010
10-23-2012, 07:43 AM
I would take Rizzo over Harper and those other 2 all day :shrug:

Yes I am a Cubs fan but he did play some great ball this year. He's also got a solid glove as well.

remember...harper is only 19 and he is the youngest player ever to participate in an all star....its unanimous......its trout and harper.......its not even close

Nomar
10-23-2012, 12:32 PM
Rizzo may not even have 30 HR power, Harper has already almost guaranteed he does, while playing superior defense in one of the hardest positions.

RicoSteel
10-23-2012, 12:48 PM
Cabrera is clearly the AL MVP.

Leandres_sf
10-23-2012, 01:19 PM
How is Cabrera clearly the MVP? Trout had a better season, look past HR and RBI.

Nomar
10-23-2012, 01:29 PM
The new triple crown is wOBA, wRC+, and WAR.

natsbats
10-23-2012, 04:26 PM
We'll see just how far along the voters have come when we see the results in November.

If Trout wins it, we'll know they have firmly adopted a newer and better way of thinking.

If it's very close, we'll know they wanted to vote for Trout, but the historical importance of a triple crown on a playoff team could not be overlooked.

If it was a landslide, we'll know they're still hitching to the wrong train.

Jeffy25
10-23-2012, 07:21 PM
I am starting to total the votes now. Ballots are still welcomed in until November 1st. If you don't want to submit a complete ballot, that is okay. Some people just did MVP, Cy Young, etc. That's your call. But I invite everyone to submit a ballot.

Ballots have to be sent to me through Private Message to count.

Jeffy25
10-28-2012, 11:00 PM
Have not gotten any more ballots in awhile, if you want to submit, it's due this week.

giants73756
10-29-2012, 05:06 AM
Have not gotten any more ballots in awhile, if you want to submit, it's due this week.

I'm pretty sure I'll do one. Don't move up the deadline just because you haven't gotten any in a while. I'm sure you wouldn't but I want to make sure I won't miss out.

Jeffy25
10-29-2012, 05:37 AM
I won't, deadline is Thursday

Il Mago50
10-29-2012, 02:27 PM
AL MVP
1) Cabrera
2) Trout
3) Hamillton
4) Cano

NL MVP
1) Posey
2) Braun
3) Molina
4) McCutch

AL Cy Young
1) Price
2) Verlander
3) Weaver
4) Felix
5) Sale

NL Cy Young
1) Dickey
2) Kershaw
3) Gonzalez
4) Cain
5) Cueto

Jeffy25
10-29-2012, 02:48 PM
You have to PM me your votes for them to count, and you need to fill out all 10 spots for MVP

lol, please
10-29-2012, 03:26 PM
WS MVP? Panda :dance:

Tkais9009
10-29-2012, 05:08 PM
You have to PM me your votes for them to count, and you need to fill out all 10 spots for MVP

Im not sure what is so difficult about this part lol

Jeffy25
10-29-2012, 05:18 PM
Im not sure what is so difficult about this part lol

I am counting three posts in this thread where that poster did not PM me their votes, lol. Oh well.

natepro
10-30-2012, 08:57 AM
AL MVP
1. Mike Trout
2. Robinson Cano
3. Miguel Cabrera
4. Adrian Beltre
5. Justin Verlander
6. Ben Zobrist
7. Felix Hernandez
8. Austin Jackson
9. Alex Gordon
10. Joe Mauer


NL MVP
1. Buster Posey
2. Ryan Braun
3. David Wright
4. Andrew McCutchen
5. Chase Headley
6. Yadier Molina
7. Jason Heyward
8. Aramis Ramirez
9. Michael Bourn
10. Aaron Hill


AL Cy Young
1. Justin Verlander
2. Felix Hernandez
3. David Price
4. Chris Sale
5. CC Sabathia

NL Cy Young
1. Clayton Kershaw
2. R.A. Dickey
3. Gio Gonzalez
4. Johnny Cueto
5. Cliff Lee

AL ROY
1. Mike Trout
2. Yu Darvish
3. Yoenis Cespedes

NL ROY
1. Bryce Harper
2. Wade Miley
3. Mike Fiers

AL Relief
1. Fernando Rodney
2. Greg Holland
3. Jake McGee

NL Relief
1. Craig Kimbrel
2. Aroldis Chapman
3. David Hernandez

AL Hank Aaron
1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Mike Trout
3. Prince Fielder

NL Hank Aaron
1. Ryan Braun
2. Buster Posey
3. Andrew McCutchen

AL Gold Glove
P 1. Yu Darvish 2. Scott Diamond 3. Jered Weaver
C 1. Matt Wieters 2. Alex Avila 3. Russell Martin
1B 1. Albert Pujols 2. Carlos Pena 3. Mark Teixeira
2B 1. Dustin Pedroia 2. Robinson Cano 3. Dustin Ackley
SS 1. Brendan Ryan 2. J.J. Hardy 3. Jhonny Peralta
3B 1. Mike Moustakas 2. Adrian Beltre 3. Alberto Callaspo
LF 1. Alex Gordon 2. Desmond Jennings 3. David Murphy
CF 1. Mike Trout 2. Denard span 3. Austin Jackson
RF 1. Josh Reddick 2. Ichiro 3. Torii Hunter


NL Gold Glove
P 1. Mark Buehrle 2. Clayton Kershaw 3. Mat Latos
C 1. Yadier Molina 2. Buster Posey 3. Brian McCann
1B 1. Joey Votto 2. Adam LaRoche 3. Paul Goldschmidt
2B 1. Darwin Barney 2. Mark Ellis 3. Brandon Phillips
SS 1. Clint Barmes 2. Brandon Crawford 3. Zack Cozart
3B 1. David Wright 2. Aramis Ramirez 3. Chase Headley
LF 1. Alfonso Soriano 2. Martin Prado 3. Ryan Braun
CF 1. Michael Bourn 2. Drew Stubbs 3. Carlos Gomez
RF 1. Jason Heyward 2. Giancarlo Stanton 3. Carlos Beltran


AL Silver Slugger
DH 1. Edwin Encarnacion 2. Billy Butler 3. Paul Konerko
C 1. Joe Mauer 2. A.J. Pierzynski 3. Carlos Santana
1B 1. Prince Fielder 2. Albert Pujols 3. Chris Davis
2B 1. Robinson Cano 2. Dustin Pedroia 3. Ian Kinsler
SS 1. Derek Jeter 2. Asdrubal Cabrera 3. Elvis Andrus
3B 1. Miguel Cabrera 2. Adrian Beltre 3. Alex Rodriguez
LF 1. Josh Willingham 2. David Murphy 3. Yoenis Cespedes
CF 1. Mike Trout 2. Josh Hamilton 3. Austin Jackson
RF 1. Ben Zobrist 2. Nick Swisher 3. Alex Rios


AL Manager
1. Buck Showalter
2. Bob Melvin
3. Robin Ventura

NL Manager
1. Davey johnson
2. Bruce Bochy
3. Ron Roenicke

AL General Manager
1. Billy Beane
2. Jon Daniels
3. Andrew Friedman

NL General Manager
1. Mike Rizzo
2. John Mozilak
3. Walk Jocketty

AL Comeback Player
1. Adam Dunn
2. Kendrys Morales
3. Alex Rios

NL Comeback Player
1. Adam LaRoche
2. A.J. Burnett
3. Ryan Ludwick

AL Breakout Player
1. Austin Jackson
2. Edwin Encarnacion
3. Josh reddick

NL Breakout Player
1. Andrew McCutchen
2. Chase Headley
3. Buster Posey

AL Breakout Pitcher
1. Chris Sale
2. Max Scherzer
3. Jim Johnson

NL Breakout Pitcher
1. R.A. Dickey
2. Aroldis Chapman
3. Lance Lynn

Estaban Loaiza Award
Kyle Lohse

Brady Anderson Award
Ian Desmond

Derrick Turnbow Award
Fernando Rodney

natepro
10-30-2012, 08:57 AM
Honestly, there were a couple (like pitcher Gold Gloves) where I could've made picks with a dart board and it may not have changed much.

iAugust
10-30-2012, 11:03 PM
there is no argument to be made AGAINST cabrera, end of discussion.
whine/cry about it, shows your lack of baseball knowledge.

no? here's mine:

Let's go through the arguments that people are making for Cabrera to be the MVP. And I'll do it on hard-mode by not even mentioning WAR one time.

"He won the Triple Crown! That hasn't happened in so long! He must be better than Trout!"

Well, that's nice. I understand it's rarity and difficulty, but the Triple Crown is just an arbitrary, seemingly random, collection of 3 stats. One of which tells you nothing about individual effectiveness and is completely opportunity-based (RBI) and one of which is very misleading and again tells you very little about individual effectiveness (.AVG). If you want to pull the Triple Crown card, though, Trout had a collection of 3 random stats that were even rarer than Cabrera's (30 HR, 45 SB, 125 R, which has never been done in the history of the MLB). Winning the Triple Crown does not automatically equate someone to be being the best offensive player that year.

"Well he leads the league in OPS! That includes all the aspects of hitting. His OPS is over 1!"

While an OPS of 1+ is very impressive, OPS is kind of a flawed stat in the sense that it treats OBP and SLG as the same importance, when in reality each point of OBP is worth more in terms of creating runs than each point of SLG.

A better stat to look at is wOBA (weighted on-base average), which is similar to OPS but weighs every individual offensive outcome (1B, 2B, 3B, HR, SB, CS, BB, HBP) based on their true run value. SLG assumes that a double is worth twice as much as a single, which is actually false as a single is worth about .44 runs to a double's .77. 2 singles are better than 1 double. This year Trout posted a league-high .421 wOBA to Cabrera's .417.

"But he had so many RBI! He had 50 more than Trout! He's such a better run producer!"

While the RBI totals would tell you Cabrera is better at driving in runners, it's a lot closer than the numbers suggest. See, RBI is the most flawed and useless stat that constantly gets thrown around when comparing player performance. What resulted in his misleading RBI total was a league-high 444 runners on-base during his plate appearances. In terms of actual effectiveness of knocking runners in, they were close to equal. Cabrera this year drove in 31% of his runners on base to Trout's 28%, a lot closer than the 50 RBI margin would have you think. In addition, Miguel batting 3rd meant most of the time his baserunners were Austin Jackson and Quintin Berry, the two fastest players in Detroit's lineup, making them easier to drive in. Since Trout hits leadoff, his baserunners were slower bottom of the order hitters like Chris Ianetta and Vernon Wells.

But if you want to play the RBI (opportunity) game, you must also consider the other side to having the most opportunities with men on base, with the fact that Cabrera grounded into more double plays (28) than any other player in baseball this year.

So you can either ignore the gross difference in opportunities and give Cabrera credit for driving in many more runs while also penalizing him for creating many more outs, or adjust for opportunity and realize that Cabrera hasnít actually been that much better than Trout at bringing his teammates home once they get on base.

"OK, well maybe his offensive numbers aren't any better, but Miggy is so clutch! He gets the big hits when it really matters and carried his team down the stretch!"

Although "clutchness" is hard to quantify, WPA (win-probability added) does a pretty good job of it. It uses win probability, which takes into account baserunners, outs, and what inning it is -- all the things people used to describe "clutch" -- and measures the win probability before and after each player's at-bat, crediting them with the difference in win probability that resulted from their at-bat. It essentially measure's how much each individual player contributed to their team's win (or loss). For example, the highest single-game postseason WPA of all-time was David Freese in Game 6 of last year's World Series. I don't think anyone would deny that he was as clutch as they came in that game.

So let's look at Trout and Cabrera's season WPA this year:

Trout - 5.67 (1st in AL)
Cabrera - 4.55 (4th in AL, behind teammate Prince Fielder and Edwin Encarnacion)

So Trout actually contributed (offensively) to more wins, even taking into account context-based (clutch) situations for his team than Miggy this year.

WPA by month
Trout
-0.08 - April
0.89 - May
1.63 - June
1.42 - July
1.45 - August
0.36 - Sept/Oct

Cabrera
0.86 - April
0.83 - May
-0.28 - June
0.99 - July
1.05 - August
1.11 - Sept/Oct

So yes, while Cabrera was more clutch and effective over the last month, does it really make up for the previous 4 months that Trout consistently beat Cabrera? After all, a win in June is worth just as much as a win in September at the end of the year. I don't buy that Cabrera playing better during a one-month window of time that's deemed "more important" (when in reality every win is worth the same) outweighs the previous four months that Trout had.

So now we've come to the conclusion that they were virtually equal in runs created for their team, with the slight edge to Trout, they were virtually equal in driving in baserunners, with the slight edge to Cabrera, and Trout was consistently more clutch throughout the course of the season, with the edge going to Cabrera in the final month. I think it's safe to say they were virtually equal offensive contributors for their teams, you really can't give an edge to either one.

But wait, there's more! (to the game of baseball than just offense). You have to play defense too. And while we couldn't really decide upon who has the advantage offensively, I don't think anyone would really debate that Trout has a MASSIVE advantage over Cabrera defensively, while playing the hardest position in the game. (Although I'm not a huge fan of defensive stats in baseball - and you don't really need them in this situation for it to be clear who the advantage goes to - the defensive numbers are there to support Trout pretty soundly as well).

One more thing to consider is Trout's obvious, and again MASSIVE, speed advantage over Cabrera. Yes, we already included this earlier as SB and CS are included in wOBA, but let's even take steals out of the picture. Trout added so much more value to his team by all the times he used his speed to go from 1st to 3rd, scoring from 2nd on singles and taking extra bases by just being faster and better base runner. This is something that Cabrera simply cannot offer to his team, and frankly, he hurts his team (takes away value) by his deficiency in this facet of the game.

So let's break it down:

Offense: No clear advantage
Speed: Huge advantage Trout
Defense: Huge advantage Trout

So how can Trout not be the Most Valuable Player this season?

"Well Cabrera's team is in the playoffs! And Trout's isn't! Ha! See? Cabrera is MVP!"

Well, the Angels winning percentage when Trout was in the lineup was the best in the MLB, plus they had a better record overall than the Tigers. So Cabrera should win the MVP because he plays in a weaker division than Trout and his teammates are better? What else did Trout have to do to make up for his team's shortcomings and his stronger division? Should he have played the other 7 positions and pitched like Justin Verlander?

He added more value to his team than Cabrera, plain and simple. Player value to me does not change based on what team you are on. That implies that your team has something to do with an individual award, and that's not the case. It's not the "Most Valuable Player plus other valuable players around you" award, it's just "Most Valuable Player". And Trout was the Most Valuable Player to his team in the entire MLB this year

Cabrera had an incredible season, no doubt, and I'm glad he won the Triple Crown (for both my fantasy team and my wallet, not to mention the sport of baseball), but he was not the Most Valuable Player to his team this year.

Jeffy25
11-01-2012, 09:43 AM
I'm not accepting any more ballots

I should be posting the results over the next coming days and weekend, slowly (beginning of the month is a busy time work wise usually for me though).

Jeffy25
11-05-2012, 03:57 AM
Sorry it has taken me through the weekend to tally everything. I should start posting the winners here shortly (as in this week)

Jeffy25
11-06-2012, 05:11 PM
So I am waiting on some responses from some people to finalize the ballots, so I should have the results up soon.



to those that didn't vote:

Last year I had about twice as many ballots, but we only did MVP, ROY, ManagerOY, Cy Young.

Did you not vote because there were so many more options?

I only have 13 ballots this year, last year I topped 30.
(then again, I didn't make people PM them to me either, I just recorded what people posted in the thread I made).

RTL
11-06-2012, 05:44 PM
I hesitated to vote because there were so many options but I only voted for the ones I deemed worth my time. It still took a long time to fill the ballot. Voting on SS and GG is a waste of time IMO.

Jeffy25
11-06-2012, 05:50 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking next year I'll avoid that. It took a ton of my time just tallying the votes for that stuff, and I doubt people are really that interested in it.

Thank you for the feedback, anybody else?

DodgerB24
11-06-2012, 08:49 PM
I would just allow people to vote in the thread.

Some people might not want to copy/paste into a PM, so you would probably get a few more ballots. .

Rush
11-06-2012, 09:08 PM
Ya I agree with RTL. I didn't vote because there were a lot of options and just didn't want to go through all of them. I know I didn't have to vote for all, but it just seemed like too time consuming.

Tkais9009
11-06-2012, 09:37 PM
i had nothing better to do with my life so i did the whole thing but i understand why it was a pain to some people

Jeffy25
11-06-2012, 10:14 PM
Okay, next year I'll keep it more simple

Jeffy25
11-06-2012, 10:34 PM
I'm waiting for a response from three posters before it will all be done. Some things are clear, but you know never know how some votes could swing some things.


Watching the election coverage makes me talk like this :)

jej
11-07-2012, 12:06 AM
You said we didn't have to do all of the categories right? Cause I just didn't do GG and SG and such.

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 12:22 AM
Yeah, you didn't have to.

hoggin88
11-07-2012, 02:54 AM
I'm waiting for a response from three posters before it will all be done. Some things are clear, but you know never know how some votes could swing some things.


Watching the election coverage makes me talk like this :)

97% of precincts reporting, but the results are still too close to call.

:flag:

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 03:29 AM
:)

SpecialFNK
11-07-2012, 07:36 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121107&content_id=40192890&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb



With Election Day behind us, it's time for some very qualified candidates with plenty of popular support to prepare for Election Week.

For the first time, baseball's annual individual awards will be presented live on television next week on MLB Network, with the announcement of four major awards as voted by the Baseball Writers' Association of America taking place on four consecutive nights at 6 p.m. ET, beginning on Monday.

Those final candidates are being revealed right now, giving fans a glimpse at those considered by voters the best of the best for each of the awards. Ballots were submitted at the end of the regular season, two contributors per city in each league voting for each award.

All of the votes are in, but the suspense remains -- until Election Week arrives, that is. With Jackie Robinson Rookie of the Year Awards being presented on Monday for both the American League and the National League, both Manager of the Year Awards on Tuesday, the Cy Young Awards on Wednesday and the Most Valuable Player Awards on Thursday, the week of announcements will honor the best baseball had to offer in 2012.

As they're being unveiled on MLB Network, and in alphabetical order, here are the candidates:

National League Jackie Robinson Rookie of the Year Award
3B Todd Frazier, Reds
OF Bryce Harper, Nationals
LHP Wade Miley, D-backs


these are the players who have been nominated for NL rookie of the year.

Todd Frazier - .273/.331/.498/.829/ 55 R, 26 D, 6 T, 19 HR, 67 RBI, 3 SB
Bryce Harper - .270/.340/.477/.817/ 98 R, 26 D, 9 T, 22 HR, 59 RBI, 18 SB
Wade Miley - 16-11, 3.33 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 144 K

who should win?

SpecialFNK
11-07-2012, 07:37 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121107&content_id=40192890&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb



With Election Day behind us, it's time for some very qualified candidates with plenty of popular support to prepare for Election Week.

For the first time, baseball's annual individual awards will be presented live on television next week on MLB Network, with the announcement of four major awards as voted by the Baseball Writers' Association of America taking place on four consecutive nights at 6 p.m. ET, beginning on Monday.

Those final candidates are being revealed right now, giving fans a glimpse at those considered by voters the best of the best for each of the awards. Ballots were submitted at the end of the regular season, two contributors per city in each league voting for each award.

All of the votes are in, but the suspense remains -- until Election Week arrives, that is. With Jackie Robinson Rookie of the Year Awards being presented on Monday for both the American League and the National League, both Manager of the Year Awards on Tuesday, the Cy Young Awards on Wednesday and the Most Valuable Player Awards on Thursday, the week of announcements will honor the best baseball had to offer in 2012.

As they're being unveiled on MLB Network, and in alphabetical order, here are the candidates:

American League Jackie Robinson Rookie of the Year Award
OF Yoenis Cespedes, Athletics
RHP Yu Darvish, Rangers
OF Mike Trout, Angels

these are the players who have been nominated for AL rookie of the year.

Yoenis Cespedes - .292/.356/.505/.861/ 70 R, 25 D, 5 T, 23 HR, 82 RBI, 16 SB.
Yu Darvish - 16-9, 3.90 ERA, 1.28 WHIP, 221 K
Mike Trout - .326/.399/.564/.963/ 129 R, 27 D, 8 T, 30 HR, 83 RBI, 49 SB

I shouldn't need to ask, but I will. who should win?

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 07:38 PM
Harper has this locked up

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 07:38 PM
Just one awards thread btw

SpecialFNK
11-07-2012, 07:40 PM
I didn't know there would be one thread for all awards. no disrespect, but IMO that's stupid. I think each award deserves it's own thread, especially Cabrera vs Trout when it comes to AL MVP. but that's just me.

EDIT: this looks more like a contest, rather than discussing who should win the MLB awards.

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 07:43 PM
I didn't know there would be one thread for all awards. no disrespect, but IMO that's stupid. I think each award deserves it's own thread, especially Cabrera vs Trout when it comes to AL MVP. but that's just me.

It would take over the entire forum.

AL MVP
NL MVP
AL CY Young
NL Cy Young
AL Roy
NL Roy
AL Manager of Year
NL Manager of Year
Comeback players etc.

It would dominate the entire forum, and there isn't enough discussion on each topic to warrant individual threads for each. We went through about 2000 posts during the regular season in one awards thread...that's 6+ months with it mainly picking up at the end.

Now it's the off-season, we'll see maybe another 1000 posts, which will fill this thread up.

So yes, one thread.

SpecialFNK
11-07-2012, 07:47 PM
you the boss, so I guess whatever you say goes.

I think Cabera/Trout could take up page after page after page after page, and then mix in other awards, and it could all get confusing. like trying to have multiple conversations going at the same time. seems like a mess waiting to happen.

jej
11-07-2012, 07:50 PM
Harpers got it. Not cause of the counting stats tho like the question suggested.

StriveGreatness
11-07-2012, 07:53 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121107&content_id=40192890&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb



these are the players who have been nominated for AL rookie of the year.

Yoenis Cespedes - .292/.356/.505/.861/ 70 R, 25 D, 5 T, 23 HR, 82 RBI, 16 SB.
Yu Darvish - 16-9, 3.90 ERA, 1.28 WHIP, 221 K
Mike Trout - .326/.399/.564/.963/ 129 R, 27 D, 8 T, 30 HR, 83 RBI, 49 SB

I shouldn't need to ask, but I will. who should win?

Cespedes. His team went to the Playoffs.

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 07:53 PM
Braun, Posey, Molina, Cutch, and Headley are the 5 finalists for NL MVP (ESPN)

Not Wright

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 07:54 PM
you the boss, so I guess whatever you say goes.

I think Cabera/Trout could take up page after page after page after page, and then mix in other awards, and it could all get confusing. like trying to have multiple conversations going at the same time. seems like a mess waiting to happen.

They do :)

DodgerB24
11-07-2012, 07:55 PM
Very shocked Braun is a finalist.

CHRISDODGERS
11-07-2012, 07:57 PM
Harold Reynolds makes MLB Network almost unwatchable. but I watch it because it's funny.

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 07:59 PM
BTW, I'm going to start posting the award winners for PSD tonight, award by award and we'll create a discussion thread for the real awards as well. Since there isn't much else that happens between now and free agency really gets going.

Those that have not responded to me, I'll be moving on without you.

SpecialFNK
11-07-2012, 08:01 PM
what happened to Braun last year with the PED should be irrelevant to this season. he deserves to be a finalist, and some could argue he deserves to win the award. but I think because humans vote for the award he is going to lose out because some will not vote for him just based on what happened last year with the PED.

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 08:02 PM
Oh, Posey has this award locked up.

Braun deserves it, but Posey has it locked up.

They will not vote Braun the MVP after last season, and 'because he wasn't in the playoffs' which is such a stupid reason to not vote for someone.

sexicano31
11-07-2012, 08:02 PM
Cespedes. His team went to the Playoffs.

Reported for trolling

RTL
11-07-2012, 08:43 PM
Oh, Posey has this award locked up.

Braun deserves it, but Posey has it locked up.

They will not vote Braun the MVP after last season, and 'because he wasn't in the playoffs' which is such a stupid reason to not vote for someone.

Braun and Posey are both deserving. And writers voted for Bonds multiple times knowing he was cheating so don't see it being out of the realm of possibility he gets voted again.

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 08:47 PM
Braun and Posey are both deserving. And writers voted for Bonds multiple times knowing he was cheating so don't see it being out of the realm of possibility he gets voted again.

Considering they gave him the award last year for making the playoffs, it's hard to think they will give it to him over Posey a guy who made the playoffs vs Braun whose team missed it badly.

Then again, the voters logic is consistently horrendous, so who knows.

Posey will likely win. But my vote would have been for Braun, and I hate Braun.

Fly
11-07-2012, 08:51 PM
Considering they gave him the award last year for making the playoffs, it's hard to think they will give it to him over Posey a guy who made the playoffs vs Braun whose team missed it badly.

Then again, the voters logic is consistently horrendous, so who knows.

Posey will likely win. But my vote would have been for Braun, and I hate Braun.

Why would you have voted for Braun over Posey?

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 08:52 PM
Why would you have voted for Braun over Posey?

He created more value this season.

I explained in the last thread, but basically Braun's net run value was slightly higher than Posey's, cumulative with his WAR, WPA, and net run values, all combined, Braun held the edge on Posey.

Fly
11-07-2012, 08:55 PM
He created more value this season.

I explained in the last thread, but basically Braun's net run value was slightly higher than Posey's, cumulative with his WAR, WPA, and net run values, all combined, Braun held the edge on Posey.

I just think that Posey put up very similar offensive stats to Braun and played the harder position.

xnick5757
11-07-2012, 09:54 PM
So Cano, Beltre, Hamilton, Miggy, and Trout are the finalists for the AL MVP

Braun, Headley, McCutchen, Molina, and Posey for the NL MVP

Jeffy25
11-07-2012, 10:48 PM
I just think that Posey put up very similar offensive stats to Braun and played the harder position.

And it is very close.

Braun created more offense though, and he was no slouch defensively, which helps make up the difference in positional adjustment.


Braun created 133 Runs offensively, to Posey's 114
He was a positive 7 runs defensive, and Posey was a negative 1 run defensive
Braun had a +1.4 runs base running, Posey a negative 3.9

You have about a 20 run adjustment for position in Posey's favor

Posey has a slight baby edge in rWAR, fWAR, and WPA

It's very close.

natsbats
11-08-2012, 01:08 PM
You could easily argue that the formula doesn't give Posey a big enough advantage for positional adjustments.

You try playing catcher for 130+ games. It's the most physically demanding, and most important defensive position in baseball. Left field is among the least important and least physically demanding.

Having a Catcher produce the way Posey produced with the bat, and Posey being a top 10 overall defensive catcher.... it's more valuable to a team than a good fielding, big bat left fielder.

And before you bring up that -1 run for Posey....that's a completely subjective stat. It's not concrete factual at all.

natepro
11-08-2012, 01:12 PM
You could easily argue that the formula doesn't give Posey a big enough advantage for positional adjustments.

You try playing catcher for 130+ games. It's the most physically demanding, and most important defensive position in baseball. Left field is among the least important and least physically demanding.

Having a Catcher produce the way Posey produced with the bat, and Posey being a top 10 overall defensive catcher.... it's more valuable to a team than a good fielding, big bat left fielder.

And before you bring up that -1 run for Posey....that's a completely subjective stat. It's not concrete factual at all.

:eyebrow:

natsbats
11-08-2012, 01:14 PM
BTW, I heard you say before that 10 runs roughly equal 1.0 WAR.....

How come Bruan created 133 runs offensively, 1.4 runs base running, and 7 runs on defense..... roughly 140 runs....I know he gets dinged for playing left field, but he ended up with a WAR below 8....certainly he didn't get dinged 60 runs for playing left field.

natsbats
11-08-2012, 01:24 PM
:eyebrow:

Just watch him behind the plate.

He has a great arm.

Frames pitches well (I believe there is a site that analysis's this)

Blocks pitches amazing. Only 2 passed balls all year.

The staff excluding Lincecum & Zito feel 100 percent confident in what he calls.

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 01:37 PM
You could easily argue that the formula doesn't give Posey a big enough advantage for positional adjustments.

You try playing catcher for 130+ games. It's the most physically demanding, and most important defensive position in baseball. Left field is among the least important and least physically demanding.

Having a Catcher produce the way Posey produced with the bat, and Posey being a top 10 overall defensive catcher.... it's more valuable to a team than a good fielding, big bat left fielder.

And before you bring up that -1 run for Posey....that's a completely subjective stat. It's not concrete factual at all.

Please show me how Defensive Runs Saved is a subjective stat


And he had a 0 behind the plate (i.e. league average) and was a -1 at first.

And he is also, not elite at framing pitches. He is also, league average at that, throwing out runners. He is very good at blocking pitches, but that's really the only thing he is exceptional at at this point.

In a couple of years from now he will probably reach his elite point defensively, he is still improving.

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 01:40 PM
BTW, I heard you say before that 10 runs roughly equal 1.0 WAR.....

How come Bruan created 133 runs offensively, 1.4 runs base running, and 7 runs on defense..... roughly 140 runs....I know he gets dinged for playing left field, but he ended up with a WAR below 8....certainly he didn't get dinged 60 runs for playing left field.

WAR is based on the league average, Runs Created is just the overall net runs created.


He created about 135 runs offensively, and was about neutral in value on defense.

That doesn't mean he was a 13.5 WAR player. WAR is based on the league average (or comparatively) and net runs created is simply the amount of runs created by the player.

The league average base line replacement level player essentially creates about 50 runs +/- every season (or they should be expected to do so).

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 01:47 PM
Just watch him behind the plate.

He has a great arm.

Frames pitches well (I believe there is a site that analysis's this)

Blocks pitches amazing. Only 2 passed balls all year.

The staff excluding Lincecum & Zito feel 100 percent confident in what he calls.

You have to remember that defensive metrics compare him to the rest of the league defensively, and there are defensive only catchers in this league.

He isn't to either Molina's level yet (that's okay, they are the best) and he is behind some others like Ryan Hanigan and more still. These are guys that are in the league only to catch, their offensive values mean very little.

Posey is the best offensive catcher in the game, and at this point, a neutral defensive catcher who is likely to be above average within a year or two if he isn't there already. This season, he produced about league average defensively. He was actually very close to Molina in overall value on the year. But offensive value is worth more than defensive value, so he has the edge. There is no shame in this, but Posey is not a top defensive catcher just yet.

natsbats
11-08-2012, 01:55 PM
How is runs saved not subjective?

Fan graphs has him at +7 for his defense..... obviously this fits my argument more, but that's a stat I refuse to use too because it's flawed.

There will never be a true representation through stats of all the catchers duties. They are too intricate.

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 01:58 PM
How is runs saved not subjective?

Fan graphs has him at +7 for his defense..... obviously this fits my argument more, but that's a stat I refuse to use too because it's flawed.

There will never be a true representation through stats of all the catchers duties. They are too intricate.

Fangraphs is who shares the Defensive Runs Saved stat, you are looking at UZR, they are two very different stats.


It isn't subjective, it's calculated by StatCorner and is measurable.

natsbats
11-08-2012, 02:06 PM
It's subjective because it accounts for stolen bases and the catchers ability to stop people from running.

That's illogical, especially for Posey, because he catchers a lot of pitchers that absolutely suck at holding runners. It's not Posey's fault the pitchers have terrible moves to 1st, and a elongated deliveries with guys on 1st or 2nd.

Ask any SF fan, base stealers get tremdous jumps on their pitchers routinely.

Not fair to Posey to ding him for stuff out of his control.

RTL
11-08-2012, 02:10 PM
Posey is a top ten defensive catcher. Haven't seen anyone make a list of 10 better catchers. Posey had less WP and PB than Molina this season and his arm isn't too far behind Molina's either as far as strength and accuracy. Molina is the best in the league but those suggested Posey isn't top 10 just plain don't know what they are talking about or are relying heavily on CS% which is extremely flawed.

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 02:11 PM
It's subjective because it accounts for stolen bases and the catchers ability to stop people from running.

That's illogical, especially for Posey, because he catchers a lot of pitchers that absolutely suck at holding runners. It's not Posey's fault the pitchers have terrible moves to 1st, and a elongated deliveries with guys on 1st or 2nd.

Ask any SF fan, base stealers get tremdous jumps on their pitchers routinely.

Not fair to Posey to ding him for stuff out of his control.

Did you know that Posey holds the same number of runners as his backup?



Either way, it's about being able to even control the running game in the first place. They run wildly on San Francisco, and yes, a couple of the pitchers are bad at holding runners like Linecum, but some are actually good at it too like Vogelsong and Zito. Teams are not afraid to run on Posey like they are say Miguel Montero and Yadier Molina.

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 02:19 PM
Posey is at 33% CS in his career, all his backups have combined for 30.1% caught.

It isn't out of line to think Posey is league average defensively, or slightly better than league average.

top 10, probably right about there.

Maybe top 5 by next season.

RTL
11-08-2012, 02:24 PM
Posey is at 33% CS in his career, all his backups have combined for 30.1% caught.

It isn't out of line to think Posey is league average defensively, or slightly better than league average.

top 10, probably right about there.

Chris Stewart being the major contributing factor in those skewed numbers. He's good as well. No shame in that.

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 02:28 PM
Chris Stewart being the major contributing factor in those skewed numbers. He's good as well. No shame in that.

****, I actually forgot about Stewart, I just did Whiteside and Sanchez.

Makes them 32.3% to Posey's 33%

natsbats
11-08-2012, 02:30 PM
Bengie Molina was -10 with the Giants in 2009.....it's hard to try to explain that other than the pitching staff left him out to dry on may occasions.

Ask any base stealer what's the most important thing to stealing.....it's how good of a jump you can get. A great jump and it doesn't matter who is behind the plate, it is stolen.

RTL
11-08-2012, 02:32 PM
****, I actually forgot about Stewart, I just did Whiteside and Sanchez.

Makes them 32.3% to Posey's 33%

Whietside and Sanchez are just 26% combined as Posey's backup. 185 attempts, 49 CS.

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 02:46 PM
Whietside and Sanchez are just 26% combined as Posey's backup. 185 attempts, 49 CS.

You do need to include the end of 2009, after Posey's initial callup, and not include the games he wasn't on the roster in 2010

Sept 11 to the end of the season in 09

And then from May 29th to the end of the 10 season

RTL
11-08-2012, 02:56 PM
Not include the games he wasn't on the roster in 2010? Whiteside and Sanchez were still his backups catching the same pitchers! Makes no sense not to but you're right about 2009 though he only caught 4 games so the difference in negligible. Still around 26%, not 30%

GIANTS 4 LIFE
11-08-2012, 03:49 PM
All I know is that lincecum is the worst pitcher I have ever seen at holding runners and bumgarner is one of the slowest pitchers to home in baseball. If u took those two pitchers and swapped them with carpenter and wainwright, posey's cs % would go way up while molina's would go down. Molina is the best and love watching him play defense but he would have no shot at throwing out 48% with lincecum pitching unless the base runners fall down.

beldugo
11-08-2012, 03:54 PM
All I know is that lincecum is the worst pitcher I have ever seen at holding runners and bumgarner is one of the slowest pitchers to home in baseball. If u took those two pitchers and swapped them with carpenter and wainwright, posey's cs % would go way up while molina's would go down. Molina is the best and love watching him play defense but he would have no shot at throwing out 48% with lincecum pitching unless the base runners fall down.

You haven't seen Tommy Hanson.

Jeffy25
11-08-2012, 04:04 PM
All I know is that lincecum is the worst pitcher I have ever seen at holding runners and bumgarner is one of the slowest pitchers to home in baseball. If u took those two pitchers and swapped them with carpenter and wainwright, posey's cs % would go way up while molina's would go down. Molina is the best and love watching him play defense but he would have no shot at throwing out 48% with lincecum pitching unless the base runners fall down.

Probably true.

Also, neat little bit of information:

Yadier Molina has 46 career pickoffs (5 in 2012)
Posey has 2 (both in 2012)


Don't even get off the base lol. Molina is a lot of fun to watch. I remember him ending a game in San Diego that was rather comical. Bases were loaded in the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs in a (I think) 5-4 game with the Cardinals leading.

Molina ended the game by picking the guy off on first, and his run meant nothing.

natepro
11-08-2012, 04:14 PM
Molina is ridiculous at picking people off first. It's almost unfair.

GIANTS 4 LIFE
11-08-2012, 04:26 PM
You haven't seen Tommy Hanson.

Lincecum is so bad that he tries the no look approach. He will literally not even look at the runner at second base at least 20 times a year. :facepalm:

GIANTS 4 LIFE
11-08-2012, 04:30 PM
Probably true.

Also, neat little bit of information:

Yadier Molina has 46 career pickoffs (5 in 2012)
Posey has 2 (both in 2012)


Don't even get off the base lol. Molina is a lot of fun to watch. I remember him ending a game in San Diego that was rather comical. Bases were loaded in the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs in a (I think) 5-4 game with the Cardinals leading.

Molina ended the game by picking the guy off on first, and his run meant nothing.

Now posey did pick molina off third in game seven. He was just called safe. :D