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View Full Version : Who was the least deserving MVP in the last ten years ?



Stunner
10-13-2012, 02:48 PM
Discuss

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-13-2012, 02:49 PM
I know how this thread will turn out.

Bravo95
10-13-2012, 02:57 PM
Could argue that Lebron should have won the last four.

A few guys could have won it over Nash in '06.

lavilevi23
10-13-2012, 02:57 PM
This has Rose written all over it.

Cal827
10-13-2012, 02:58 PM
Derek Rose or Steve Nash

Stunner
10-13-2012, 03:00 PM
I think Kobe should have one it over Nash , no way he should have gotten it two times in a row.

Andrew32
10-13-2012, 03:11 PM
1. Iverson (2001)
Over Peak Shaq?

2. Rose (2011)
Just seemed like there were better players in the league at the time on good teams.
Not totally unreasonable though given his production and team record.

3. Kobe (2008)
CP3 was a better player and led his team to a similar record in the same conference.

4. Nash (2005 or 2006)
Shaq had a good case for the award in 2005 and Wade/Dirk/Kobe had good cases in 2006.

Honestly other then Iverson in 2001 I think all the MVP's given out the past 10-12 years were reasonable but if I had to make a list this would be mine.

Gators123
10-13-2012, 03:16 PM
Rose.

Il Mago50
10-13-2012, 03:17 PM
Derrick Rose was the most valuable player in the league I'm not sure what the discussion is about...they were legitimate contenders with him and he carried that team Iverson-style last season offensively, hence why they lost all those close games in the playoffs last year, they turned him inefficient and no one else could really create offensively.

Nash's second MVP was by far the most undeserving...Kobe literally put up 28 games of over 40 points in a season and carried a team that other then Odom had Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and other garbage players to 45 wins...he nearly won 50 games with a D-League squad and pushed Nash's stacked team to 7 games on his back...Kobe was robbed plain and simple. Sure, Nash lost Amare but he still had Marion in his prime and a ton of talent on his roster to do what they did.

Shaq definitely should've won another one or two MVPs in the late 90's-early century...

Kobe should've beat out Dirk and Nash (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html) in 2006-2007, Dirk winning that year is horrible as much as I love Dirk.



....

Kobe finished 4th in that 2005-2006 season, look at his team http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2006.html

He literally had no one to play with and nearly won 50 games. That's an MVP.

PurpleJesus
10-13-2012, 03:21 PM
This thread is going to turn ugly, with a bunch of CHI fans saying everyone is haters...but Rose is obviously one of the answers that a lot of people will give.

Stunner
10-13-2012, 03:29 PM
Rose MVP stats are the reason why people say he shouldn't deserve it but having The amount of injuries that team had that year and the load he had to carry is the reason why he won it. From 8th Seed to the best record in the a league , rose had a big role in that along with Tibbs. If Rose didn't get it Howard should have.

brodawgs
10-13-2012, 03:29 PM
1. Iverson (2001)
Over Peak Shaq?

2. Rose (2011)
Just seemed like there were better players in the league at the time on good teams.
Not totally unreasonable though given his production and team record.

3. Kobe (2008)
CP3 was a better player and led his team to a similar record in the same conference.

4. Nash (2005 or 2006)
Shaq had a good case for the award in 2005 and Wade/Dirk/Kobe had good cases in 2006.

Honestly other then Iverson in 2001 I think all the MVP's given out the past 10-12 years were reasonable but if I had to make a list this would be mine.

This.

Iverson was deserving of the award, maybe Shaq deserved it alittle more, but you can't say Iverson wasn't at least 1B if Shaq were to win.

I would switch it Rose #1 then Iverson #2, Rose is the only player on the list that you can easily replace him and it wouldn't be controversial in hindsight. LeBron clearly was a better player and as important to his team as Rose.

DanG
10-13-2012, 03:29 PM
2008 CP3 was a better player and led his team to a similar record in the same conference.

I guess we were all waiting for it.

ink
10-13-2012, 03:30 PM
Derrick Rose was the most valuable player in the league I'm not sure what the discussion is about...they were legitimate contenders with him and he carried that team Iverson-style last season offensively, hence why they lost all those close games in the playoffs last year, they turned him inefficient and no one else could really create offensively.

Nash's second MVP was by far the most undeserving...Kobe literally put up 28 games of over 40 points in a season and carried a team that other then Odom had Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and other garbage players to 45 wins...he nearly won 50 games with a D-League squad and pushed Nash's stacked team to 7 games on his back...Kobe was robbed plain and simple. Sure, Nash lost Amare but he still had Marion in his prime and a ton of talent on his roster to do what they did.

Shaq definitely should've won another one or two MVPs in the late 90's-early century...

Kobe should've beat out Dirk and Nash (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html) in 2006-2007, Dirk winning that year is horrible as much as I love Dirk.



....

Kobe finished 4th in that 2005-2006 season, look at his team http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2006.html

He literally had no one to play with and nearly won 50 games. That's an MVP.

There's no way Dirk didn't deserve his MVP. In fact, I can't think of one MVP in the past 10 years that wasn't deserved.

ink
10-13-2012, 03:31 PM
Year Player Team
2010-11 Derrick Rose Chicago
2009-10 LeBron James Cleveland
2008-09 LeBron James Cleveland
2007-08 Kobe Bryant Los Angeles Lakers
2006-07 Dirk Nowitzki Dallas
2005-06 Steve Nash Phoenix
2004-05 Steve Nash Phoenix
2003-04 Kevin Garnett Minnesota
2002-03 Tim Duncan San Antonio
2001-02 Tim Duncan San Antonio
2000-01 Allen Iverson Philadelphia
1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal Los Angeles Lakers
1998-99 Karl Malone Utah
1997-98 Michael Jordan Chicago
1996-97 Karl Malone Utah
1995-96 Michael Jordan Chicago
1994-95 David Robinson San Antonio
1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon Houston
1992-93 Charles Barkley Phoenix
1991-92 Michael Jordan Chicago
1990-91 Michael Jordan Chicago
1989-90 Magic Johnson Los Angeles Lakers
1988-89 Magic Johnson Los Angeles Lakers
1987-88 Michael Jordan Chicago
1986-87 Magic Johnson Los Angeles Lakers
1985-86 Larry Bird Boston
1984-85 Larry Bird Boston
1983-84 Larry Bird Boston
1982-83 Moses Malone Philadelphia
1981-82 Moses Malone Houston
1980-81 Julius Erving Philadelphia
1979-80 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Los Angeles

I don't see anything wrong with any of these. We're looking at a list of HOFers.

JordansBulls
10-13-2012, 03:32 PM
Nash in 2005

Bravo95
10-13-2012, 03:46 PM
People trash that '01 Sixers' surrounding cast, but that says more about Brown's coaching, much like Thibs in '11.

O'Neal and Duncan both had a great case for the '01 MVP regardless of who was on their respective teams.

JasonJohnHorn
10-13-2012, 03:48 PM
I don't think anybody has ever won and MVP award and not deserved it. There are certainly seasons when there are more than one deserving player (practically every season), but every player that has one has deserved it.

Munkeysuit
10-13-2012, 03:56 PM
Not a huge Kobe fan but the Mamba should have had one of those Nash MVP's and I think the most obvious was D Rose's MVP

el hidalgo
10-13-2012, 03:56 PM
Kobe has never had a season better than Chris Paul's 07-08 and 08-09 seasons. No chance he should have won MVP over CP3. I just don't see any argument in his favor.

ink
10-13-2012, 04:00 PM
I don't think anybody has ever won and MVP award and not deserved it. There are certainly seasons when there are more than one deserving player (practically every season), but every player that has one has deserved it.

100% agree. People ignore the circumstances of the season, or just weren't watching closely or at all. The Karl Malone MVP was somewhat controversial at the time but give me a break, we're talking about one of the best PFs of all time, someone who had been shut out by Jordan year after year. I have no problem with any of these MVPs at all.

Stunner
10-13-2012, 04:08 PM
There was a point to this thread , I'm glad to see some logical post. I just wanted to see if I was the only one who felt this way.

LAKERMANIA
10-13-2012, 04:09 PM
Dirk in 2007

DR_1
10-13-2012, 04:09 PM
I haven't really thought any of the recent MVPs haven't deserved their award. Sure, they may not have been the best player but that's different than most valuable.

BTW I'm so sick of these Bulls baiting threads. I love how the mods ignore these but yet crack down on any Heat-related threads :facepalm:

DoMeFavors
10-13-2012, 04:13 PM
06-07 Dirk

JordansBulls
10-13-2012, 08:54 PM
06-07 Dirk

How so? He had the best numbers in the league and the best record.

PleaseBeNice
10-13-2012, 09:11 PM
Derrick Rose. Dwight Howard should have won it that year

Chill_Will_24
10-13-2012, 09:17 PM
Rose easily. Their coaching staff is the reason for the dramatic improvement. They won games because of their defense and Rose while not a bad defender was not the reason for that defensive success. Tom Thibodeau changed everything there.

How would the Bulls have performed with VDN as the coach?

Rose played well and was a great story that year and that is why they gave it to him but honestly most ppl that know basketball and do not just watch Sportcenter all day will tell you Lebron or Dwight should have been the MVP

That is depending on how you define the MVP though. Most CHI fans will say it should be the best player on the best team. However that takes credit away from not only the rest of the team but from the coaching staff as well and without Thibodeau the Bulls are not a threat to any top team.

I think it should be LITERALLY the player who was most valuable to his team. i.e the player who if that player left his team would dramatically regress.

StarvingKnick22
10-13-2012, 09:18 PM
Derrick Rose/Lebron last year over a Tony Parker takeover and a KD with a great season.

JordansBulls
10-13-2012, 09:22 PM
Rose easily. Their coaching staff is the reason for the dramatic improvement. They won games because of their defense and Rose while not a bad defender was not the reason for that defensive success. Tom Thibodeau changed everything there.

How would the Bulls have performed with VDN as the coach?

Rose played well and was a great story that year and that is why they gave it to him but honestly most ppl that know basketball and do not just watch Sportcenter all day will tell you Lebron or Dwight should have been the MVP

That is depending on how you define the MVP though. Most CHI fans will say it should be the best player on the best team. However that takes credit away from not only the rest of the team but from the coaching staff as well and without Thibodeau the Bulls are not a threat to any top team.

I think it should be LITERALLY the player who was most valuable to his team. i.e the player who if that player left his team would dramatically regress.


Thibs had never even been a coach before in the NBA, so the fact the Bulls did that well was more of Rose than Thibs since Thibs wasn't a proven commodity.

JNoel
10-13-2012, 09:28 PM
Derrick Rose was the most valuable player in the league I'm not sure what the discussion is about...they were legitimate contenders with him and he carried that team Iverson-style last season offensively, hence why they lost all those close games in the playoffs last year, they turned him inefficient and no one else could really create offensively.

Nash's second MVP was by far the most undeserving...Kobe literally put up 28 games of over 40 points in a season and carried a team that other then Odom had Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and other garbage players to 45 wins...he nearly won 50 games with a D-League squad and pushed Nash's stacked team to 7 games on his back...Kobe was robbed plain and simple. Sure, Nash lost Amare but he still had Marion in his prime and a ton of talent on his roster to do what they did.

Shaq definitely should've won another one or two MVPs in the late 90's-early century...

Kobe should've beat out Dirk and Nash (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html) in 2006-2007, Dirk winning that year is horrible as much as I love Dirk.



....

Kobe finished 4th in that 2005-2006 season, look at his team http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2006.html

He literally had no one to play with and nearly won 50 games. That's an MVP.

Lebron had better stats in realistically every category, while shooting a better percentage than Rose. Everyone's hate for Lebron prevented him from being an MVP that season, period.

ink
10-13-2012, 09:40 PM
Lebron had better stats in realistically every category, while shooting a better percentage than Rose. Everyone's hate for Lebron prevented him from being an MVP that season, period.

Doubtful. You might just be overrating hate. ;)

Chill_Will_24
10-13-2012, 09:42 PM
Thibs had never even been a coach before in the NBA, so the fact the Bulls did that well was more of Rose than Thibs since Thibs wasn't a proven commodity.

Everyone knew he was a defensive genius and if you are suggesting that the Bulls would be just as good defensively without him then idk i guess we just disagree

Vinny642
10-13-2012, 09:44 PM
1. Iverson (2001)
Over Peak Shaq?

2. Rose (2011)
Just seemed like there were better players in the league at the time on good teams.
Not totally unreasonable though given his production and team record.

3. Kobe (2008)
CP3 was a better player and led his team to a similar record in the same conference.

4. Nash (2005 or 2006)
Shaq had a good case for the award in 2005 and Wade/Dirk/Kobe had good cases in 2006.

Honestly other then Iverson in 2001 I think all the MVP's given out the past 10-12 years were reasonable but if I had to make a list this would be mine.

Here

jerellh528
10-13-2012, 09:49 PM
last years should have went to durant, one of nash's and rose.

Chill_Will_24
10-13-2012, 09:50 PM
Doubtful. You might just be overrating hate. ;)

Sarcasm hopefully? Lebron has been unfairly hated on ever since he left CLE and tbh he is one of the best people (not just player) in the NBA. Any scandals you can find about Lebron? Any drug possession? Gun possession? Twitter shenanigans? Reports of domestic abuse? Speeding violation even?

By all accounts he is a great father and a great husband and a great role model for kids and a hard worker when it comes to his craft.

He should be on just as high a level as KD and DRose when ppl talk of how classy and how great they are as people.

Big Zo
10-13-2012, 10:27 PM
Nash in 2005, Mr. Humble in 2011.

Raidaz4Life
10-13-2012, 10:52 PM
I definitely agree with Kobe in 08 not deserving it but I don't think it was that big of a deal since most people agree Kobe probably should have won at least one earlier for taking those Laker's misfits to the playoffs.

More-Than-Most
10-13-2012, 11:01 PM
I think Kobe should have one it over Nash , no way he should have gotten it two times in a row.

He deserved the 3rd one though over Dirk...So he should still have gotten 2... I agree he did not deserve 2 in a row but he got robbed of the 3rd one

amos1er
10-13-2012, 11:02 PM
I definitely agree with Kobe in 08 not deserving it but I don't think it was that big of a deal since most people agree Kobe probably should have won at least one earlier for taking those Laker's misfits to the playoffs.

How do you figure? Kobe led the Lakers to the best record in the west and was the better player than CP3. When the Lakers and the Hornets met on of the last games of the regular season when the best record was on the line, Kobe out played CP3 and led the Lakers to victory. Thus securing the best record in the west.

Kobe in 2008: 28 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, on a 58% TS, First team All NBA, First team All Defensive NBA, best record in west

Paul: 21 ppg, 12 apg, 3 rpg on a 58% TS, First team All NBA, Second Team All NBA Defensive, second best record in west

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-13-2012, 11:50 PM
It's sad to think Kobe only has 1 MVP, even shaq only had 1 that is sad!

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-13-2012, 11:51 PM
I definitely agree with Kobe in 08 not deserving it but I don't think it was that big of a deal since most people agree Kobe probably should have won at least one earlier for taking those Laker's misfits to the playoffs.

Kobe deserved it better team record and better stats then cp3... It was close but Kobe deserved it in the end...

ink
10-14-2012, 12:28 AM
Sarcasm hopefully? Lebron has been unfairly hated on ever since he left CLE and tbh he is one of the best people (not just player) in the NBA. Any scandals you can find about Lebron? Any drug possession? Gun possession? Twitter shenanigans? Reports of domestic abuse? Speeding violation even?

By all accounts he is a great father and a great husband and a great role model for kids and a hard worker when it comes to his craft.

He should be on just as high a level as KD and DRose when ppl talk of how classy and how great they are as people.

"Hate" is the domain of simple-minded fans. They don't vote for MVPs.

So if he thinks "hate" affected the voting, he's over-rating hate.

bbcmillionaire
10-14-2012, 01:05 AM
hmmm lets see, Mvp.... if u take that person off the team they will not ultimately succeed. nba success is winning a championship. take lebron off the heat, chances are they could of still won the championship with wade n bosh. now take rose off the bulls and our championship expectations dwindle. MVP= ROSE 2011 he deserved it exceeding everyones expectations

b@llhog24
10-14-2012, 01:19 AM
Kobe didn't have better stats than Cp3 in 08, nor was he the better player that year.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-14-2012, 01:59 AM
Kobe didn't have better stats than Cp3 in 08, nor was he the better player that year.

28-6-5 is better then 21-12-3 add a better record to it and u have yourself the MVP of the NBA

b@llhog24
10-14-2012, 02:19 AM
28-6-5 is better then 21-12-3

Without added context sure let's go with the guy who has the shiny big ppg number.


add a better record to it and u have yourself the MVP of the NBA

MVP is a media award, I fully understand why Kobe won his. It's just that by my defintion:

1) Actually being the most valuable player to your team
2) Being the best player

Kobe doesn't cut it for me.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-14-2012, 02:28 AM
Without added context sure let's go with the guy who has the shiny big ppg number.



MVP is a media award, I fully understand why Kobe won his. It's just that by my defintion:

1) Actually being the most valuable player to your team
2) Being the best player

Kobe doesn't cut it for me.

Really :rolleyes:
I'm sure your username has nothing to do with it

Bruno
10-14-2012, 03:02 AM
mvp isn't about who's the best player...

it's a matter of circumstance.

LakersMaster24
10-14-2012, 03:30 AM
Anyone should have won in 2008, as long as its not Kobe.

Steve Nash totally deserved it over Kobe in 2006. Maybe Dirk could make a case.

:rolleyes:

Trueblue2
10-14-2012, 04:07 AM
Nash... There's really no other right answer.

cg_la00
10-14-2012, 04:36 AM
definitely nash in 06. kobe took a weak team to the playoffs and went bananas that year in scoring records....especially that monster of a game everyone knows about.

81 points people...81 ****in points :speechless: i still cant believe i witnessed that and i know this is irrelevant to the thread but i also thought kobe got snubbed for male athlete of the year in the espys that year smh

Rosh
10-14-2012, 06:13 AM
He should be on just as high a level as KD and DRose when ppl talk of how classy and how great they are as people.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjXQCT47EAc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KoNovDS-Jw


You're right. LeBron's post-shot dance moves are just as good as Durant's and probably better than Rose's. It's so weird, I've been scouring the channels for all the latest free agent signing TV specials too, but I guess I just don't get those networks. Coming up with nothing. Come on, let's not get carried away. LeBron has done a lot to repair his reputation in the last 18 months, but he did not do himself any favors with his downright childish behavior in Cleveland and unwarranted arrogant behavior for many, many years.

LeBron also had the luxury of having a Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh to draw pressure away from him. Something he also had this last year when he won it, but the difference was the numbers he put up definitely substantiated his win.
His statistics in 2011-2012 playing alongside those two coupled with his lack of mental toughness when it counted juxtaposed against Rose carrying his team of no real second star through injuries to Joakim Noah and Carlos Boozer (amongst others) for each half of the season more than solidified his MVP win.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-14-2012, 09:43 AM
i usually don't mind players that win the mvp.

ragee
10-14-2012, 10:33 AM
Anyone should have won in 2008, as long as its not Kobe.

Steve Nash totally deserved it over Kobe in 2006. Maybe Dirk could make a case.

:rolleyes:

Kobe should have won the award more than once but in 2008, CP3 should have won it. Kobe's team was better yet their team had the same record.

b@llhog24
10-14-2012, 10:48 AM
Really :rolleyes:
I'm sure your username has nothing to do with it

Nope.

But i love how you dodged the main point. :rolleyes:

Hellcrooner
10-14-2012, 11:28 AM
deserving mvps dont lose in the first round against the 8th seed. ( and im saying 8th seed, when playoffs only had 8 teams it was different).

I Rock Shaqs
10-14-2012, 11:36 AM
f every thread had a poll it would make everything way easier lol.

xxplayerxx23
10-14-2012, 11:38 AM
06 Nash (Kobe deserved it)
08 Kobe (Cp3 Deserved it)

Rose deserved it in 011. He took his team to the next level, not a big fan of the bulls or the fans on here but I can't take what he did away from him. I think he was more valuable to his team then anybody else that year.

xxplayerxx23
10-14-2012, 11:39 AM
deserving mvps dont lose in the first round against the 8th seed. ( and im saying 8th seed, when playoffs only had 8 teams it was different).

Yeah because MVP isn't a regular season award :rolleyes:

Chronz
10-14-2012, 12:23 PM
28-6-5 is better then 21-12-3 add a better record to it and u have yourself the MVP of the NBA

Nope. Add all that talent alongside Kobe and you only win a single game more than CP3? Im not that impressed but I was fine with Kobe winning it. Then CP3 became a Clipper and suddenly Im alil more distraught by it, funny how that happens.

Chill_Will_24
10-14-2012, 12:34 PM
hmmm lets see, Mvp.... if u take that person off the team they will not ultimately succeed. nba success is winning a championship. take lebron off the heat, chances are they could of still won the championship with wade n bosh. now take rose off the bulls and our championship expectations dwindle. MVP= ROSE 2011 he deserved it exceeding everyones expectations

Is that why the Bulls kept winning games without him? The Bulls system is good. That is the backbone to their success. Give it up.

The Bulls only needed him come playoff time. MVP is a regular season award.

Their MVP is their defense.

Chill_Will_24
10-14-2012, 12:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjXQCT47EAc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KoNovDS-Jw


You're right. LeBron's post-shot dance moves are just as good as Durant's and probably better than Rose's. It's so weird, I've been scouring the channels for all the latest free agent signing TV specials too, but I guess I just don't get those networks. Coming up with nothing. Come on, let's not get carried away. LeBron has done a lot to repair his reputation in the last 18 months, but he did not do himself any favors with his downright childish behavior in Cleveland and unwarranted arrogant behavior for many, many years.

LeBron also had the luxury of having a Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh to draw pressure away from him. Something he also had this last year when he won it, but the difference was the numbers he put up definitely substantiated his win.
His statistics in 2011-2012 playing alongside those two coupled with his lack of mental toughness when it counted juxtaposed against Rose carrying his team of no real second star through injuries to Joakim Noah and Carlos Boozer (amongst others) for each half of the season more than solidified his MVP win.

Are ppl still going on about this crap? He did not even notice that ball boy. Did he even once look at him? His mind was on the game where it should be.

I remember a clip where Kobe had Chris Rock 5 inches from his ear cracking jokes for him and Kobe didnt even look at him or crack a smirk. Competitive players stay focused.

Not to mention that refs are strict when it comes to substitutions. If your team needs you the last thing you want is the ref making you wait till next time out because you were too busy being pleasant to the ball boy. Please.

As far the the dancing thing Noah was just a sore loser. Lebron is a grown kid and loves to joke around with his team as evidenced by all the footage from Team USA and behind the scenes with his teams. He was just having a good time. So he was dancing.. that makes him a bad person? Good people do not dance i forgot. So Rose is the epitome of class because he is quiet and shy? GTFOH

And are you still going on about the on with the ESPN Special? Even though it was confirmed that it was not Lebron's idea and even though it was for charity? Even though even Lebron admitted it was a mistake?

You can keep holding on to those small shreds of "hate fuel" all you want. Nothing you can say will prove that Lebron is a bad person.

See i could go and find you the picture of Rose throwing up gang signs or find some stupid excuse to hate on Durant but i will not do that because that is stupid. You know a player is a great person when you have to dig really hard to find dirt on them.

Chill_Will_24
10-14-2012, 12:57 PM
06 Nash (Kobe deserved it)
08 Kobe (Cp3 Deserved it)

Rose deserved it in 011. He took his team to the next level, not a big fan of the bulls or the fans on here but I can't take what he did away from him. I think he was more valuable to his team then anybody else that year.

He was not as valuable to his team as Dwight Howard was to his. It's that simple.

If you start bringing up records then you are no longer talking about just individual players and one must bring up coaching (which the Bulls benefited greatly from) and teammates (which Dwight did NOT benefit from).

Raidaz4Life
10-14-2012, 07:40 PM
Chris Paul's 07-08 season was one of the greatest seasons (if not the best) of any point guard in NBA history. He was the equivalent to Kobe the years prior to that carrying a team completely on his back.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-14-2012, 07:45 PM
Nope. Add all that talent alongside Kobe and you only win a single game more than CP3? Im not that impressed but I was fine with Kobe winning it. Then CP3 became a Clipper and suddenly Im alil more distraught by it, funny how that happens.

Pau was a midseason acquisition. Ariza was an acquisition in November but missed the last half of the regular season due to an injury. Bynum went down for the season in late January.

So in terms of consistent talent throughout the season, no, Kobe didn't have that (it was very up and down). He adjusted with lineups changing every 3 weeks either due to injury to Ariza (Radmanovic then became starter), injury to Bynum, or the arrival of Pau.

bucketss
10-14-2012, 07:46 PM
hmmm lets see, Mvp.... if u take that person off the team they will not ultimately succeed. nba success is winning a championship. take lebron off the heat, chances are they could of still won the championship with wade n bosh. now take rose off the bulls and our championship expectations dwindle. MVP= ROSE 2011 he deserved it exceeding everyones expectations

lol you actually think if you take lebron off the heat they would have won the chip.

KnicksorBust
10-14-2012, 07:53 PM
Rose is probably the worst player but that season he earned it.

HouRealCoach
10-14-2012, 08:00 PM
In 2006, Kobe had a 7th seed.. You need at least a top 4 seed to be MVP nowadays so that is why he finished 4th in the voting

In 2008, Chris Paul was ROBBED. PERIOD.

I have no problem with 2011, Derrick Rose carried that team on the offensive end.

All others in post-Jordan era were acceptable

Raidaz4Life
10-14-2012, 08:41 PM
In 2006, Kobe had a 7th seed.. You need at least a top 4 seed to be MVP nowadays so that is why he finished 4th in the voting

In 2008, Chris Paul was ROBBED. PERIOD.

I have no problem with 2011, Derrick Rose carried that team on the offensive end.

All others in post-Jordan era were acceptable

Why is that a stipulation? That has nothing to do with being the most valuable player to your team. It is an individual award... what does team record have to do with anything other than how much that individual contributes to that team record.

JMClarkent
10-14-2012, 08:56 PM
I am not the hugest A.I. fan, but his team had the worst NBA finals roster in recent history. Starting 5, IIRC:

A.I.
Eric Snow
Jumaine Jones
Tyrone Hill
Mutombo (on the downside).

HouRealCoach
10-14-2012, 09:26 PM
Why is that a stipulation? That has nothing to do with being the most valuable player to your team. It is an individual award... what does team record have to do with anything other than how much that individual contributes to that team record.

As the leader you have to have your team in contention and/or looking like a legit threat as did every other MVP for the past 20-30 years

If that was the case then Kevin Love would have gotten serious consideration for MVP the last couple years but you have to WIN.. Kobe just had 8 games above .500, technically he had 3... Not good enough

On the other hand, guys like Nash, LeBron, & Dirk put up all star numbers and carried their squads to 50 wins or more and Nash did it without a big man on his squad

SirSkyHook
10-14-2012, 09:27 PM
Pau was a midseason acquisition. Ariza was an acquisition in November but missed the last half of the regular season due to an injury. Bynum went down for the season in late January.

So in terms of consistent talent throughout the season, no, Kobe didn't have that (it was very up and down). He adjusted with lineups changing every 3 weeks either due to injury to Ariza (Radmanovic then became starter), injury to Bynum, or the arrival of Pau.

Ofcourse people forget this :rolleyes: Glad im not the only one that payed attention.

To answer the question 06 should have been Kobe's but its Kobe fault though. When he got caught up with the Colorado incident he screwed his chances for MVP's for awhile. Nba couldnt glorify a acussed rapist.

JesusNYY_Savior
10-14-2012, 09:36 PM
Rose easily. Their coaching staff is the reason for the dramatic improvement. They won games because of their defense and Rose while not a bad defender was not the reason for that defensive success. Tom Thibodeau changed everything there.

How would the Bulls have performed with VDN as the coach?

Rose played well and was a great story that year and that is why they gave it to him but honestly most ppl that know basketball and do not just watch Sportcenter all day will tell you Lebron or Dwight should have been the MVP

That is depending on how you define the MVP though. Most CHI fans will say it should be the best player on the best team. However that takes credit away from not only the rest of the team but from the coaching staff as well and without Thibodeau the Bulls are not a threat to any top team.

I think it should be LITERALLY the player who was most valuable to his team. i.e the player who if that player left his team would dramatically regress.


Thibs had never even been a coach before in the NBA, so the fact the Bulls did that well was more of Rose than Thibs since Thibs wasn't a proven commodity.
Everyone knew thibs would do exactly what he did.. You must be crazy if you honestly think he was unproven.. He was loved in bean town

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-14-2012, 09:37 PM
Ofcourse people forget this :rolleyes: Glad im not the only one that payed attention.



Not to mention he was stuck with Brian Cook the first month and a half of the season, stuck with Kwame for the first half of the season, and Luke Walton was the 6th man for most of the season before Pau came and got everybody back to their normal positions (starting wise and bench wise).

Swashcuff
10-14-2012, 09:43 PM
1. Iverson (2001)
Over Peak Shaq?

2. Rose (2011)
Just seemed like there were better players in the league at the time on good teams.
Not totally unreasonable though given his production and team record.

3. Kobe (2008)
CP3 was a better player and led his team to a similar record in the same conference.

4. Nash (2005 or 2006)
Shaq had a good case for the award in 2005 and Wade/Dirk/Kobe had good cases in 2006.

Honestly other then Iverson in 2001 I think all the MVP's given out the past 10-12 years were reasonable but if I had to make a list this would be mine.

Did you read the thread title?

Swashcuff
10-14-2012, 09:44 PM
Chris Paul's 07-08 season was one of the greatest seasons (if not the best) of any point guard in NBA history. He was the equivalent to Kobe the years prior to that carrying a team completely on his back.

Statistically? Maybe. All things considered neehhhh not really. He was certainly better than Kobe however.

SirSkyHook
10-14-2012, 09:53 PM
As the leader you have to have your team in contention and/or looking like a legit threat as did every other MVP for the past 20-30 years

If that was the case then Kevin Love would have gotten serious consideration for MVP the last couple years but you have to WIN.. Kobe just had 8 games above .500, technically he had 3... Not good enough

On the other hand, guys like Nash, LeBron, & Dirk put up all star numbers and carried their squads to 50 wins or more and Nash did it without a big man on his squad

Your saying Nash and Dirk are betters player than Kobe? So is Barkley better than Jordan? His 90's Suns teams were better than Jordan's pre Pippen teams becuase thats the level on teammates Kobe had

HouRealCoach
10-14-2012, 10:13 PM
Your saying Nash and Dirk are betters player than Kobe? So is Barkley better than Jordan? His 90's Suns teams were better than Jordan's pre Pippen teams becuase thats the level on teammates Kobe had

Just because you are MVP doesn't mean you are better than all other players... Meanwhile Jordan did go up against 80's Pistons & Celtics who are both arguably top 5 teams all time but Suns? They are not even top 30, especially in 06 without Amare & Joe Johnson

I don't understand your logic either lol

Stunner
10-14-2012, 10:22 PM
You can't say the Bulls were better without Rose in his MVP season because Rose played the majority of his games that year unlike last year. Rose MVP roster and Last years roster was only a Lil different plus keying in the chemistry was better and not as many players were Hurt mainly Rose last season. See if Rose missed a majority of his games in his MVP season and the Bulls were winning then yes Rose MVP would be least deserving but we have no idea because it didn't happen. Replace Rose injury year with his MVP year and still account the injuries to Boozer and Noah and the Bulls at best are a 7th seed in the East.

SirSkyHook
10-14-2012, 10:34 PM
Just because you are MVP doesn't mean you are better than all other players... Meanwhile Jordan did go up against 80's Pistons & Celtics who are both arguably top 5 teams all time but Suns? They are not even top 30, especially in 06 without Amare & Joe Johnson

I don't understand your logic either lol

First the Suns record wise was the best or top 3 team in the league that year when Kobe lost to them and the west as the best conference by far but that wasnt my point.

My point was Nash and Dirk's teams had better players and players that compliment them better, and it was well known Kobe had bad quality players with him and the Lakers front office were saving money during his prime and it sounds as if your saying Nash and Dirk are better.

I used the Barley situation because his Suns team were better in the 90's with no great second option than Jordans 80's squad with no second fiddle. So if your trying to discredit Kobe, than you would also have to discredit Jordan.

What Kobe did in 06 was amazing and to get that cast into playoffs with the breaking and setting of records should have gave him that MVP.

Also i have
Russels Celtics
Magics Lakers
Jordans Bulls
Kobe/Shaq Lakers
Mikans Lakers

As top 5 alltime teams

Raph12
10-14-2012, 10:34 PM
Seeming as how Iverson won it in 2001 (over 10 years ago), it's easily Rose in 2011...

tapajafri
10-14-2012, 10:39 PM
Rose shouldn't have won it over Lebron.

Kobe shouldn't have won it in 2008 either.

Andrew32
10-14-2012, 10:46 PM
Did you read the thread title?
I preferred to do the last 12 years.
Did that bother you? :p

It didn't bother anyone else.

The fact is I didn't think any of the last 10 MVP winners were undeserving.
Maybe some of them were questionable but all had reasonable cases for the award.

Iverson was the only winner since 00 that I really disagreed with.

Chill_Will_24
10-14-2012, 10:53 PM
You can't say the Bulls were better without Rose in his MVP season because Rose played the majority of his games that year unlike last year. Rose MVP roster and Last years roster was only a Lil different plus keying in the chemistry was better and not as many players were Hurt mainly Rose last season. See if Rose missed a majority of his games in his MVP season and the Bulls were winning then yes Rose MVP would be least deserving but we have no idea because it didn't happen. Replace Rose injury year with his MVP year and still account the injuries to Boozer and Noah and the Bulls at best are a 7th seed in the East.

Disagree. Bulls win because of their defense. Without Rose their defense still dominated teams. Their bench and their coach was their biggest weapon. Not Rose.

Rose was their go to guy offensively and even at that, the Heat proved he an be shut down. MVP players cannot be shut down by opposing teams because they are that good. Who in the league can stop Dwight? Lebron? Even Durant to an extent.

Sinestro
10-14-2012, 11:25 PM
mvp isn't about who's the best player...

it's a matter of circumstance.

Ding Ding! Winner! Its not always about the best stats or the best player its also who played well on a feel good/up and coming team. By that merit no MVP stole their award they just won it over someone else. Besides its not like John Lucas won the award then people can ***** most people who MVPs played their ***** off and led their team to some success that year.

Chill_Will_24
10-14-2012, 11:48 PM
Ding Ding! Winner! Its not always about the best stats or the best player its also who played well on a feel good/up and coming team. By that merit no MVP stole their award they just won it over someone else. Besides its not like John Lucas won the award then people can ***** most people who MVPs played their ***** off and led their team to some success that year.

Fair point but then you would be implying that it doesn't matter who gets the award even if a more deserving player doesn't get it, as long as the player that got it somewhat deserves it.

That makes no sense to me.

It should literally be an individual award not based on records or team success but based on the impact that player had for his team. The player who is most valuable to his team i.e his team would dramatically regress without him.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-15-2012, 12:02 AM
definitely nash in 06. kobe took a weak team to the playoffs and went bananas that year in scoring records....especially that monster of a game everyone knows about.

81 points people...81 ****in points :speechless: i still cant believe i witnessed that and i know this is irrelevant to the thread but i also thought kobe got snubbed for male athlete of the year in the espys that year smh

If other players were talking ridiculous amount of shots, they could probably have matched to 81 points or just miss it.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-15-2012, 12:03 AM
deserving mvps dont lose in the first round against the 8th seed. ( and im saying 8th seed, when playoffs only had 8 teams it was different).

Playoffs have no effect on Regular season MVP.

cg_la00
10-15-2012, 12:04 AM
Are ppl still going on about this crap? He did not even notice that ball boy. Did he even once look at him? His mind was on the game where it should be.

I remember a clip where Kobe had Chris Rock 5 inches from his ear cracking jokes for him and Kobe didnt even look at him or crack a smirk. Competitive players stay focused.

Not to mention that refs are strict when it comes to substitutions. If your team needs you the last thing you want is the ref making you wait till next time out because you were too busy being pleasant to the ball boy. Please.

As far the the dancing thing Noah was just a sore loser. Lebron is a grown kid and loves to joke around with his team as evidenced by all the footage from Team USA and behind the scenes with his teams. He was just having a good time. So he was dancing.. that makes him a bad person? Good people do not dance i forgot. So Rose is the epitome of class because he is quiet and shy? GTFOH

And are you still going on about the on with the ESPN Special? Even though it was confirmed that it was not Lebron's idea and even though it was for charity? Even though even Lebron admitted it was a mistake?

You can keep holding on to those small shreds of "hate fuel" all you want. Nothing you can say will prove that Lebron is a bad person.

See i could go and find you the picture of Rose throwing up gang signs or find some stupid excuse to hate on Durant but i will not do that because that is stupid. You know a player is a great person when you have to dig really hard to find dirt on them.

its not that he was just dancing, he was dancing when they were blowing out a team. idc if hes having fun, its just that he was doing that at the wrong time, dance in the locker room not the courts, thats just childish. act like youve been there done that. noah felt like he was rubbing it in, hence why he got upset. **** i wouldve gotten upset as well if some buffoon on the other team started to dance on the bench while we were losing.

cg_la00
10-15-2012, 12:07 AM
If other players were talking ridiculous amount of shots, they could probably have matched to 81 points or just miss it.

ill never see someone be so hot on the court like that in my life time, thats just how it is. lebron can probably do it if hes super streaky but not like what kobe did that year. my god, u have to hand it to him

HouRealCoach
10-15-2012, 12:07 AM
First the Suns record wise was the best or top 3 team in the league that year when Kobe lost to them and the west as the best conference by far but that wasnt my point.

My point was Nash and Dirk's teams had better players and players that compliment them better, and it was well known Kobe had bad quality players with him and the Lakers front office were saving money during his prime and it sounds as if your saying Nash and Dirk are better.

I used the Barley situation because his Suns team were better in the 90's with no great second option than Jordans 80's squad with no second fiddle. So if your trying to discredit Kobe, than you would also have to discredit Jordan.

What Kobe did in 06 was amazing and to get that cast into playoffs with the breaking and setting of records should have gave him that MVP.

Also i have
Russels Celtics
Magics Lakers
Jordans Bulls
Kobe/Shaq Lakers
Mikans Lakers

As top 5 alltime teams

Yes what he did in 06 was amazing, no one said it wasn't but in this era look at all the MVP's and their team's seed...

99 - Karl Malone and his team was tied for 2nd best record in the league
00 - Shaq and his team had the best record
01 - Iverson & his team was number one seed
02 - Duncan & his team had second best record in the league
03 - Duncan & his team had best record
04 - KG and his team had the best record
05 - Nash & his team had the best record
06 - Nash & his team had the second seed in the west
07 - Dirk & his team had the best record
08 - Kobe and he had the number one seed in the west
09 - LeBron & he had the best record
10 - LeBron & he had the best record
11 - Rose & his team had the best record
12 - LeBron & he had the 2nd seed in the East

Now do you see?

All of MJ's MVP seasons he had at least a top 4 seed in his conference... But I'm sorry I don't understand your logic one bit can someone help me out because I don't remember saying Nash & Dirk was better than Kobe...

cg_la00
10-15-2012, 12:09 AM
I am not the hugest A.I. fan, but his team had the worst NBA finals roster in recent history. Starting 5, IIRC:

A.I.
Eric Snow
Jumaine Jones
Tyrone Hill
Mutombo (on the downside).
mutombo never had a downside! :p

Ofcourse people forget this :rolleyes: Glad im not the only one that payed attention.

To answer the question 06 should have been Kobe's but its Kobe fault though. When he got caught up with the Colorado incident he screwed his chances for MVP's for awhile. Nba couldnt glorify a acussed rapist.
he didnt rape her. i just dont see it. the girl wanted it, kobe was a superstar in the league and popular at that point. any woman wouldve wanted to **** kobe so why would he need to rape her? she obviously just wanted the pay out, anyone can see that

Rosh
10-15-2012, 12:11 AM
Are ppl still going on about this crap? He did not even notice that ball boy. Did he even once look at him? His mind was on the game where it should be.

I remember a clip where Kobe had Chris Rock 5 inches from his ear cracking jokes for him and Kobe didnt even look at him or crack a smirk. Competitive players stay focused.

Not to mention that refs are strict when it comes to substitutions. If your team needs you the last thing you want is the ref making you wait till next time out because you were too busy being pleasant to the ball boy. Please.

As far the the dancing thing Noah was just a sore loser. Lebron is a grown kid and loves to joke around with his team as evidenced by all the footage from Team USA and behind the scenes with his teams. He was just having a good time. So he was dancing.. that makes him a bad person? Good people do not dance i forgot. So Rose is the epitome of class because he is quiet and shy? GTFOH

And are you still going on about the on with the ESPN Special? Even though it was confirmed that it was not Lebron's idea and even though it was for charity? Even though even Lebron admitted it was a mistake?

You can keep holding on to those small shreds of "hate fuel" all you want. Nothing you can say will prove that Lebron is a bad person.

See i could go and find you the picture of Rose throwing up gang signs or find some stupid excuse to hate on Durant but i will not do that because that is stupid. You know a player is a great person when you have to dig really hard to find dirt on them.


Well, I think you're living proof that LeBron's PR team did a bang up job. I'd hope so, probably cost him a lot of money to mend that rep.

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 12:16 AM
its not that he was just dancing, he was dancing when they were blowing out a team. idc if hes having fun, its just that he was doing that at the wrong time, dance in the locker room not the courts, thats just childish. act like youve been there done that. noah felt like he was rubbing it in, hence why he got upset. **** i wouldve gotten upset as well if some buffoon on the other team started to dance on the bench while we were losing.

This is just too funny. There is just no way you can justify what Noah was doing. Noah had no business getting all butt hurt cuz Lebron was dancing with his teammates on the sidelines.

That is just silly. I swear people just look for things to hate about Lebron. nevermind that half the team was there dancing with him. Nope it was just Lebron being a douche smh

I bet people that hate Lebron are just praying for the day Lebron gets caught with drugs or cheating on his wife or something just so they can say "i told you so"

Raps18-19 Champ
10-15-2012, 12:16 AM
Pau was a midseason acquisition. Ariza was an acquisition in November but missed the last half of the regular season due to an injury. Bynum went down for the season in late January.

So in terms of consistent talent throughout the season, no, Kobe didn't have that (it was very up and down). He adjusted with lineups changing every 3 weeks either due to injury to Ariza (Radmanovic then became starter), injury to Bynum, or the arrival of Pau.

22-4 with Pau playing, 35-21 without Pau playing. Pau made a hell of an impact on that team, regardless on the so called inconsistent talent throughout the season.

The Hornets actually had a better record than the Lakers before Pau came over. And they had the better record even though Kobe's sidekick>Paul's sidekick.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-15-2012, 12:21 AM
ill never see someone be so hot on the court like that in my life time, thats just how it is. lebron can probably do it if hes super streaky but not like what kobe did that year. my god, u have to hand it to him

It's impressive no doubt, but the reason you don't see it everyday is because players don't take so many shots. I mean Kobe had 24 games that season where he had 30 or more FGA a game. Most other stars will reach 30 or more FGA like 5 games a season. I'm sure other scorers can achieve 81 points or just under it given the chance.

cg_la00
10-15-2012, 12:32 AM
This is just too funny. There is just no way you can justify what Noah was doing. Noah had no business getting all butt hurt cuz Lebron was dancing with his teammates on the sidelines.

That is just silly. I swear people just look for things to hate about Lebron. nevermind that half the team was there dancing with him. Nope it was just Lebron being a douche smh

I bet people that hate Lebron are just praying for the day Lebron gets caught with drugs or cheating on his wife or something just so they can say "i told you so"

-___- alright then, take out the noah piece out of it. would you personally get upset if you saw another team dancing at the benches while they were blowing out your team?

cg_la00
10-15-2012, 12:33 AM
It's impressive no doubt, but the reason you don't see it everyday is because players don't take so many shots. I mean Kobe had 24 games that season where he had 30 or more FGA a game. Most other stars will reach 30 or more FGA like 5 games a season. I'm sure other scorers can achieve 81 points or just under it given the chance.
i suppose so

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 12:36 AM
Well, I think you're living proof that LeBron's PR team did a bang up job. I'd hope so, probably cost him a lot of money to mend that rep.

:laugh2: Wow

It's not his PR team... We are talking about a player (who might go down as the best ever) who doesn't gamble (Jordan, Mayweather), who doesn't tote guns or drugs (too many to name) who doesn't get caught in sexual scandals with white girls (Tiger, Kobe), who does not abuse animals (Vick), doesn't beat his wife (Kidd) doesn't get locked up or gets in trouble with the law (Melo), been accused of using steroids (every MLB star basically, Paquiao)... i could go on and on

Lebron is a world class athlete in every sense of the word. He gets hated on because his promotional team decided to make a huge deal about his free agency.

I think ppl like you just hate him because the media has been on his jock since he was a child. Funny how for being one of the most scrutinized athletes in all of sports he is one of the hardest to find any dirt on. He is a great guy by all accounts.

He made a decision to exercise his right to go to whatever team he wanted to as a FA and he did not hold his team hostage like other players. He simply did what was best for him. I hate this slave trader mentality that teams and their fans have. A player is obligated to stay with a team and be unhappy yet the team has the right to trade him wherever and whenever they want.

His ESPN special was over the top and a bad decision by his team and even if you wanna believe it was simply his decision (which is preposterous) so what!? The media has been jocking him since he was a child! Did it really surprise you THAT much that it happened that way? Even though according to ratings EVERYONE tuned in to watch?

Please. That's all you can say against him? I give up.

cuttydoesit6
10-15-2012, 12:37 AM
derrick rose was 1000% the mvp, ignorant ppl sayin he was the least deserving lmfao...

first mvp since mj, carried that injury riddled team on his back to the playoffs n almost the championship... cmon ppl smh

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 12:44 AM
-___- alright then, take out the noah piece out of it. would you personally get upset if you saw another team dancing at the benches while they were blowing out your team?

Not really dude. I am being honest. i am a sore loser and will admit to that but i would be more upset at my team for letting it happen.

Now answer me this... how does him dancing with his teammates prove that Lebron is a bad person? I have never heard a convincing argument for Lebron being a douche. Noah and he were going at it the whole night and he probably wanted to rub it in a little. So what!?

If i have a guy talking smack to me in a game and my team is blowing them out hell yea imma put my troll mask on and rub it in. Let's not act like Noah is not a douche. If he was doing this to a guy like Ray Allen or Durant etc i would say maybe Lebron is being a dick cuz those guys are classy and dont start stuff but Noah was being a dick too

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 12:45 AM
derrick rose was 1000% the mvp, ignorant ppl sayin he was the least deserving lmfao...

first mvp since mj, carried that injury riddled team on his back to the playoffs n almost the championship... cmon ppl smh

I believe defense a strong bench and coaching carried them but ok

Cal827
10-15-2012, 12:52 AM
:laugh2: Wow

It's not his PR team... We are talking about a player (who might go down as the best ever) who doesn't gamble (Jordan, Mayweather), who doesn't tote guns or drugs (too many to name) who doesn't get caught in sexual scandals with white girls (Tiger, Kobe), who does not abuse animals (Vick), doesn't beat his wife (Kidd) doesn't get locked up or gets in trouble with the law (Melo), been accused of using steroids (every MLB star basically, Paquiao)... i could go on and on

Lebron is a world class athlete in every sense of the word. He gets hated on because his promotional team decided to make a huge deal about his free agency.

I think ppl like you just hate him because the media has been on his jock since he was a child. Funny how for being one of the most scrutinized athletes in all of sports he is one of the hardest to find any dirt on. He is a great guy by all accounts.

He made a decision to exercise his right to go to whatever team he wanted to as a FA and he did not hold his team hostage like other players. He simply did what was best for him. I hate this slave trader mentality that teams and their fans have. A player is obligated to stay with a team and be unhappy yet the team has the right to trade him wherever and whenever they want.

His ESPN special was over the top and a bad decision by his team and even if you wanna believe it was simply his decision (which is preposterous) so what!? The media has been jocking him since he was a child! Did it really surprise you THAT much that it happened that way? Even though according to ratings EVERYONE tuned in to watch?

Please. That's all you can say against him? I give up.

:clap:

cg_la00
10-15-2012, 12:53 AM
Not really dude. I am being honest. i am a sore loser and will admit to that but i would be more upset at my team for letting it happen.

Now answer me this... how does him dancing with his teammates prove that Lebron is a bad person? I have never heard a convincing argument for Lebron being a douche. Noah and he were going at it the whole night and he probably wanted to rub it in a little. So what!?

If i have a guy talking smack to me in a game and my team is blowing them out hell yea imma put my troll mask on and rub it in. Let's not act like Noah is not a douche. If he was doing this to a guy like Ray Allen or Durant etc i would say maybe Lebron is being a dick cuz those guys are classy and dont start stuff but Noah was being a dick too

this probably sounds cliche but "take the high road"? lol idk i understand what you mean, and believe me im not trying to say lebron is a bad person in general, he just, like you said, rubbed it in. personally i think he really shouldnt have done that along with his teammates, but thats just how i feel. also i really should point out that im not really defending noah per se, especially since his dumb gators beat my bruins twice :cry: lol, just trying to be in his shoes at the time it happened

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 01:04 AM
this probably sounds cliche but "take the high road"? lol idk i understand what you mean, and believe me im not trying to say lebron is a bad person in general, he just, like you said, rubbed it in. personally i think he really shouldnt have done that along with his teammates, but thats just how i feel. also i really should point out that im not really defending noah per se, especially since his dumb gators beat my bruins twice :cry: lol, just trying to be in his shoes at the time it happened

I get that bro but i have a hard time believing that if it was Durant or Duncan on that bench Lebron would be doing that. Noah is a douche and Lebron was just saying to him "you made your bed now sleep in it". Noah was being a dick the whole game and yup Lebron decided to get under his skin some more.

I guess taking the high road is always an option but in the heat of the moment when it comes to ppl like Noah you do not really have much motivation to take that course of action.

I jut find it funny how some of the top and most marketable stars in any sport from Boxing to Baseball and on and on, has been caught in some sort of scandal or stuff you can point to that says they are not great role models but Lebron gets all this hate for what? An ESPN special that was as much on us (for having him on this pedestal since he was a child) as it was on him and his team, and cuz he danced on the sidelines and didn't notice a ball boy.

Ridiculous.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-15-2012, 01:31 AM
22-4 with Pau playing, 35-21 without Pau playing. Pau made a hell of an impact on that team, regardless on the so called inconsistent talent throughout the season.

The Hornets actually had a better record than the Lakers before Pau came over. And they had the better record even though Kobe's sidekick>Paul's sidekick.

The Lakers were the #1 seed before the Bynum injury. As soon as Kwame started for like 9 games, the Lakers went 3-6 and fell to the 6th seed in the West.

Stunner
10-15-2012, 02:03 AM
Disagree. Bulls win because of their defense. Without Rose their defense still dominated teams. Their bench and their coach was their biggest weapon. Not Rose.

Rose was their go to guy offensively and even at that, the Heat proved he an be shut down. MVP players cannot be shut down by opposing teams because they are that good. Who in the league can stop Dwight? Lebron? Even Durant to an extent.

Listen to what you just said , Rose was their only offense really and did you read my post ? Account all of the injuries meaning Rose missing a lot of games , no Boozer and Noah missing a few your only offense and main number one is Deng. The main problem with the Bulls was their offense . Playing defense can only so so much. Take Rose off the Bulls roster For the last two years and The 2011 Bulls were much better than 2010 Bulls. You aren't grasping that yes the Bulls defense was very good in 2010 but 2011's was better that's why they were able to win games without Rose with a Healthy Boozer full season and Deng and Noah only missing a handful of games. Rose with the help of Tibbs defense in 2010 were the reason they won but majority of it was on Rose's shoulders because he had to go harder because thy were missing key players. The 2010 Bulls barley played without Rose so we don't know how good they would have been. You're and the rest are basing how good yhe Bulls were without him after his MVP season which is not fair. Base it on the that roster and injuries of that year not the following .

rhino17
10-15-2012, 02:07 AM
steve nash.....EASY

Stunner
10-15-2012, 02:11 AM
You're just talking BS now , Rose was basically playing 1 on 5 in the Conference finals . He was their only offense and The Heat are a great defensive team. Rose didn't get shut down he had to work harder because he didn't have help at all. Just like MJ years vs the Pistons , Lebron when he was with the Cavs. Three superstars vs 1 , I would hope the Heat would do the smart thing and try and contain Rose that's how you beat the Bulls , well that year.

Steelers23_06
10-15-2012, 02:14 AM
all im gonna say is if the decision doesnt happen lebron has 4 MVP trophies. im not saying him leaving because that was inevitable but if he did it in a more acceptable fashion he is hands down the mvp. he puts up 26-7-7 compared to 25-7-4. numbers dont lie. lebron had a great season that year even with the enormous pressure of getting booed night in and night out. very rarely is the most hated player in the league going to win the most prestigious award of the season. lebron has been the best player in the league since kobe handed him the throne and i dont think rose was anywhere near lebron that season. for the next couple years its pretty much lebrons trophy to lose.

Steelers23_06
10-15-2012, 02:17 AM
steve nash.....EASY

yea definitely the one with kobe. due to the recent #boss facebook post kobe posted we all know why he didnt win haha. which is bs 81 mother effing points and nothing to show for it common mannnnn

basketfan4life
10-15-2012, 10:06 AM
Nope. Add all that talent alongside Kobe and you only win a single game more than CP3? Im not that impressed but I was fine with Kobe winning it. Then CP3 became a Clipper and suddenly Im alil more distraught by it, funny how that happens.

i really start to think Kobe's help in 2008 is one of the most overrated helps a basketball superstar player got. I don't remember how many reg. season games Bynum and Gasol played together, Ariza was injured too, Luke Walton and Vlad Rad were real role players for that team for God sake. That team was injured all year long.

basketfan4life
10-15-2012, 10:10 AM
Also i wanna add this, when we talk about Artest, everybody goes "he is garbage", when we talk about Odom, everybody again goes "he is garbage", same for fisher, even same for Gasol to a degree.

But when we talk about Kobe's accomplishments, everybody goes "but he had artest, odom, fisher, gasol, he was very lucky, he had a great supporing cast" etc. etc.

Great stuff.

D1JM
10-15-2012, 10:34 AM
Everyone knew thibs would do exactly what he did.. You must be crazy if you honestly think he was unproven.. He was loved in bean town

That's why it took him a long time to get a head coaching job right? :rolleyes:

Sly Guy
10-15-2012, 10:43 AM
Kobe in '08. He deserves one, but that year it was a lifetime achievement award.

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 11:15 AM
That's why it took him a long time to get a head coaching job right? :rolleyes:

He had all the tools and Rivers was pushing him toward a head coaching position but Thibs did not feel he was ready. It was never a question of him not being able to find a head coaching position.

You Bulls fans just love taking credit from the man cuz it reaffirms your belief that Rose deserved to be MVP

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 11:22 AM
Listen to what you just said , Rose was their only offense really and did you read my post ? Account all of the injuries meaning Rose missing a lot of games , no Boozer and Noah missing a few your only offense and main number one is Deng. The main problem with the Bulls was their offense . Playing defense can only so so much. Take Rose off the Bulls roster For the last two years and The 2011 Bulls were much better than 2010 Bulls. You aren't grasping that yes the Bulls defense was very good in 2010 but 2011's was better that's why they were able to win games without Rose with a Healthy Boozer full season and Deng and Noah only missing a handful of games. Rose with the help of Tibbs defense in 2010 were the reason they won but majority of it was on Rose's shoulders because he had to go harder because thy were missing key players. The 2010 Bulls barley played without Rose so we don't know how good they would have been. You're and the rest are basing how good yhe Bulls were without him after his MVP season which is not fair. Base it on the that roster and injuries of that year not the following .

You are just grasping at straws now man. Let it go. Rose was their go to guy offensively only because they wanted to maximize his talents. If he was a talented playmaker they would use him like that.

Everyteam deals with injuries. Bulls fans just keep singing that same song over and over and its so dumb. The Bulls had an excellent bench, excellent coach, and amazing D

Rose's offense did give them the offensive spark the needed but it was not the reason for their success.

No matter how you Bulls fans try to spin it, you take Rose from the Bulls and they still pulled games out because of their defense and bench.

Take Dwight from ORL and you saw what happened. Take Lebron from the Heat and they are lucky if they even get out of the first round

The impact those two players had on their teams far outstrips the offensive impact Rose had on his

nickdymez
10-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Kobe didn't have better stats than Cp3 in 08, nor was he the better player that year.

lmfao.. 3 people already posted the stats!! :facepalm:

Stunner
10-15-2012, 12:26 PM
It's whatever this is all about opinions , obviously the people thought otherwise who voted for who should be MVP that year. And I think the year Iverson won MVP its best to say without that team isn't that good at all so he kind of deserved MVP. But can't change it now Rose won MVP and I think there a lot more people who think he deserved it than don't . I wasn't even being a Bulls Fan when I was debating this , I was basing on things I witnessed personally. This season will prove rather or not Rose isn't as valuable as you people say.

Stunner
10-15-2012, 12:30 PM
And the main Reason why The Bulls were playing good minus Rose because there wasn't that much pressure , rose would come back in a few days. Lets see how they recact when Rose is to miss most or all of the Season .

Swashcuff
10-15-2012, 12:31 PM
It's whatever this is all about opinions , obviously the people thought otherwise who voted for who should be MVP that year. And I think the year Iverson won MVP its best to say without that team isn't that good at all so he kind of deserved MVP. But can't change it now Rose won MVP and I think there a lot more people who think he deserved it than don't . I wasn't even being a Bulls Fan when I was debating this , I was basing on things I witnessed personally. This season will prove rather or not Rose isn't as valuable as you people say.

Everyone deserved their MVPs in one way or the other. IMO Rose should have finished 3rd in MVP voting behind Dwight and LeBron BUT based on historical reasoning the league was consistent in their awarding of the award. We may disagree with the decisions all we want but in truth and in fact the system really hasn't changed and Rose IMO was rightfully given the award at the end of it all. I argued against Rose than most but even so I was willing to acknowledge the reasoning behind him winning the award.

ink
10-15-2012, 12:40 PM
Everyone deserved their MVPs in one way or the other. IMO Rose should have finished 3rd in MVP voting behind Dwight and LeBron BUT based on historical reasoning the league was consistent in their awarding of the award. We may disagree with the decisions all we want but in truth and in fact the system really hasn't changed and Rose IMO was rightfully given the award at the end of it all. I argued against Rose than most but even so I was willing to acknowledge the reasoning behind him winning the award.

Exactly. The award is Most VALUABLE Player. Not ALWAYS the player with the best stat line. Figuring out who is "valuable" is the challenge and it's based on the opinions and judgement of the accredited media that follows the NBA.

It's clear there is a tradition of awarding the MVP to a player on a winning team. Like it or not, that's how it is.


Since the 1982–83 season, every player who has won the award has played for a team with at least a .610 winning percentage (equal to 50 regular-season wins in an 82-game season, except the lockout-shortened 50-game 1998–99 season when Karl Malone won and the lockout-shortened 66-game 2011–12 season when LeBron James won).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Most_Valuable_Player_Award

And I absolutely agree that every MVP has DESERVED their award in one way or another.

Stunner
10-15-2012, 12:41 PM
Everyone deserved their MVPs in one way or the other. IMO Rose should have finished 3rd in MVP voting behind Dwight and LeBron BUT based on historical reasoning the league was consistent in their awarding of the award. We may disagree with the decisions all we want but in truth and in fact the system really hasn't changed and Rose IMO was rightfully given the award at the end of it all. I argued against Rose than most but even so I was willing to acknowledge the reasoning behind him winning the award.

Yea Dwight should have won , all I was saying was Rose dido the than people think that year he wasn't least deserving ever based on the circumstances of that team that year. If you put the 2011 Bulls roster and their injuries on Rose MVP season the Bulls win damn near 70 games and Rose doesn't win MVP.

king4day
10-15-2012, 12:42 PM
I'm grown tired of defending Nash in these so I'll just ask, if you are going to say Nash doesn't deserve it, please look up the stats of the teams and records and what the player did for their team those years and compare to the player you think should have won.

Stunner
10-15-2012, 12:42 PM
Exactly. The award is Most VALUABLE Player. Not ALWAYS the player with the best stat line. "Valuable" is subjective; it's based on the opinions and judgement of the accredited media that follows the NBA.

It's clear there is a tradition of awarding the MVP to a player on a winning team. Like it or not, that's how it is.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Most_Valuable_Player_Award

Right If that was the case MJ should Have 6 MVP's

Stunner
10-15-2012, 12:45 PM
I'm grown tired of defending Nash in these so I'll just ask, if you are going to say Nash doesn't deserve it, please look up the stats of the teams and records and what the player did for their team those years and compare to the player you think should have won.

I think the Reason why people say Nash shouldn't have gotten it a 2nd time is because of who he had on the team and then they compare it to Kobe's trash team. And if Nash won MVP with what was it 18 and 11 ? Why could CP3 win it with 21 and 12 ? Doesn't match up

ink
10-15-2012, 12:47 PM
Right If that was the case MJ should Have 6 MVP's

Uh no, Malone was deserving, and he played for a team that was either best or one of the top teams in the final standings. Frankly, the REASONING was also that writers didn't want to ignore one of the other greats of the MJ era.

ink
10-15-2012, 12:49 PM
I think the Reason why people say Nash shouldn't have gotten it a 2nd time is because of who he had on the team and then they compare it to Kobe's trash team. And if Nash won MVP with what was it 18 and 11 ? Why could CP3 win it with 21 and 12 ? Doesn't match up

Winning team, like it or not. Other players have played on trash teams. And it's kind of absurd to compare an MVPs stats from one year with a non-MVPs stats from another year. The only comparison that matters is between the players from each year and the circumstances around their winning seasons (i.e. .610% + per the quote I just posted).

ink
10-15-2012, 12:52 PM
I'm grown tired of defending Nash in these so I'll just ask, if you are going to say Nash doesn't deserve it, please look up the stats of the teams and records and what the player did for their team those years and compare to the player you think should have won.

His level of play during those THREE years from 2005-07 was phenomenal. He epitomized leadership on and off the court, and he was spectacular in every way with those teams. I've grown tired of defending his MVPs too and now just see it as other people's loss if they can't see the worth he brought to those Suns teams.

Pluvious
10-15-2012, 02:26 PM
I think the Reason why people say Nash shouldn't have gotten it a 2nd time is because of who he had on the team and then they compare it to Kobe's trash team. And if Nash won MVP with what was it 18 and 11 ? Why could CP3 win it with 21 and 12 ? Doesn't match up

If Kobe's team would have won more games then he would have certainly won the award. Its kind of hard to say a player was "valuable" when your team is an 8th seed. You can make the argument but it was a judgement decision by the media (mvps always have teams that win more than 50 games). They went with Nash.

It was kind of a down time in the NBA for mvp candidates but I actually think that season he was very deserving. People did not really even want to vote for Nash because he won the year before (and certainly lost votes because of it) but he won anyway.

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 02:28 PM
It's whatever this is all about opinions , obviously the people thought otherwise who voted for who should be MVP that year. And I think the year Iverson won MVP its best to say without that team isn't that good at all so he kind of deserved MVP. But can't change it now Rose won MVP and I think there a lot more people who think he deserved it than don't . I wasn't even being a Bulls Fan when I was debating this , I was basing on things I witnessed personally. This season will prove rather or not Rose isn't as valuable as you people say.

Actually i expect the Bulls to sit Rose out the whole year and tank for a top pick so idk that it will prove much but ok

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 02:29 PM
And the main Reason why The Bulls were playing good minus Rose because there wasn't that much pressure , rose would come back in a few days. Lets see how they recact when Rose is to miss most or all of the Season .

What? Im not even sure this makes sense. So they feel pressure when Rose is expected to miss major time but they play extra better when they know Rose will come back soon?

Swashcuff
10-15-2012, 02:30 PM
Actually i expect the Bulls to sit Rose out the whole year and tank for a top pick so idk that it will prove much but ok

You expect or you hope? Rose isn't going to sit idly by and watch his team get wasted night in and night out. Hell if they are sitting Rose they might as well sit Deng, Noah and Taj because with those players still in the mix they'd be legit playoff contenders even without Rose.

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 02:33 PM
Everyone deserved their MVPs in one way or the other. IMO Rose should have finished 3rd in MVP voting behind Dwight and LeBron BUT based on historical reasoning the league was consistent in their awarding of the award. We may disagree with the decisions all we want but in truth and in fact the system really hasn't changed and Rose IMO was rightfully given the award at the end of it all. I argued against Rose than most but even so I was willing to acknowledge the reasoning behind him winning the award.

Agreed. they have remained consistent. I do not think Rose getting the award was a travesty. He certainly deserved it. My point is he dis not deserve it over Dwight or Lebron.

However like you i can see why he got it. I was simply answering the OP question. IMO Rose was the least deserving in the last decade.

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 02:36 PM
You expect or you hope? Rose isn't going to sit idly by and watch his team get wasted night in and night out. Hell if they are sitting Rose they might as well sit Deng, Noah and Taj because with those players still in the mix they'd be legit playoff contenders even without Rose.

I expect. It would be the smart thing to do as an organization. Rose is young. They can sit him out and let him recover well and get a great young player for him to play with the next season. I mean they are not a threat to the Heat right now anyway and they probably know it.

I guess i can see where it would be hard since those three guys you named are all above average players but they can do it and its would be the smart thing to do.

EDIT: Your last sentence is the reason i believe Rose is the least deserving MVP of the last decade BTW thanks for proving my point. They also lost Asik who was great for them off the bench

ink
10-15-2012, 02:51 PM
If Kobe's team would have won more games then he would have certainly won the award. Its kind of hard to say a player was "valuable" when your team is an 8th seed. You can make the argument but it was a judgement decision by the media (mvps always have teams that win more than 50 games). They went with Nash.

It was kind of a down time in the NBA for mvp candidates but I actually think that season he was very deserving. People did not really even want to vote for Nash because he won the year before (and certainly lost votes because of it) but he won anyway.

Basically it's the tradition of the award and they haven't ever made an exception for anyone. From what I've read the bar is set so that no MVP has ever been on a team with less than a .610 winning %.

Swashcuff
10-15-2012, 03:05 PM
I expect. It would be the smart thing to do as an organization. Rose is young. They can sit him out and let him recover well and get a great young player for him to play with the next season. I mean they are not a threat to the Heat right now anyway and they probably know it.

That is in your opinion the smart thing to do. The Bulls are a move away from serious title contention and their window is still very open. The right acquisition and they will certainly be a threat to the Heat.


I guess i can see where it would be hard since those three guys you named are all above average players but they can do it and its would be the smart thing to do.

Not that alone Derrick Rose is not the type of person that will want to sit out the entirety of a season for a chance of his team tanking. They already lucked out in a major way once the chances of that happening once again are slim to none.


EDIT: Your last sentence is the reason i believe Rose is the least deserving MVP of the last decade BTW thanks for proving my point. They also lost Asik who was great for them off the bench

What point? Rose's supporting cast grew greatly in a single season. The Bulls went from 8th in the league in assists the year before to 6th with Rose missing almost half the season. They learned to run offense without him in the line-up over one season. The year before their ball movement was horrendous when he came off the floor the next year their offense was predicated on it showing how far they came as a team in a year. The Bulls came a long way in a single season.

king4day
10-15-2012, 03:06 PM
I think the Reason why people say Nash shouldn't have gotten it a 2nd time is because of who he had on the team and then they compare it to Kobe's trash team. And if Nash won MVP with what was it 18 and 11 ? Why could CP3 win it with 21 and 12 ? Doesn't match up

That's the thing. Diaw (who at the time was a nobody and thanks to that year, got his huge contract), Marion, Bell, Kurt Thomas, Barbosa, no bench. The 05-06 was more impressive. 54 wins for a team without a star.

Swashcuff
10-15-2012, 03:09 PM
Agreed. they have remained consistent. I do not think Rose getting the award was a travesty. He certainly deserved it. My point is he dis not deserve it over Dwight or Lebron.

However like you i can see why he got it. I was simply answering the OP question. IMO Rose was the least deserving in the last decade.

I can agree with all of this.

Cano4prez
10-15-2012, 03:09 PM
Kobe

xcrisisx
10-15-2012, 03:19 PM
nash twice period.

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 04:01 PM
That is in your opinion the smart thing to do. The Bulls are a move away from serious title contention and their window is still very open. The right acquisition and they will certainly be a threat to the Heat.



Not that alone Derrick Rose is not the type of person that will want to sit out the entirety of a season for a chance of his team tanking. They already lucked out in a major way once the chances of that happening once again are slim to none.



What point? Rose's supporting cast grew greatly in a single season. The Bulls went from 8th in the league in assists the year before to 6th with Rose missing almost half the season. They learned to run offense without him in the line-up over one season. The year before their ball movement was horrendous when he came off the floor the next year their offense was predicated on it showing how far they came as a team in a year. The Bulls came a long way in a single season.

I am not sure but i think we are arguing the same point and are pretty much on the same page, it's just you know how to articulate it better than me.

Only thing we differ on is that i think their best move is to sit out Rose the whole year and let him heal fully and get as high a pick as possible. You feel that they are a move away.

Which player do you foresee becoming available that will put them over the top?

Kevin Martin? Josh Smith? I can't think of one right now.

Swashcuff
10-15-2012, 04:11 PM
I am not sure but i think we are arguing the same point and are pretty much on the same page, it's just you know how to articulate it better than me.

Only thing we differ on is that i think their best move is to sit out Rose the whole year and let him heal fully and get as high a pick as possible. You feel that they are a move away.

Which player do you foresee becoming available that will put them over the top?

Kevin Martin? Josh Smith? I can't think of one right now.

Neither can I. You know how these things work though. We really didn't see Gsaol being possible for the Lakers and well we knew what happened. I honestly can't give a definite answer as to who that player could be.

Pluvious
10-15-2012, 04:12 PM
That's the thing. Diaw (who at the time was a nobody and thanks to that year, got his huge contract), Marion, Bell, Kurt Thomas, Barbosa, no bench. The 05-06 was more impressive. 54 wins for a team without a star.

Yeah.

Nash
Bell (spot up shooter that never scored much outside of Phoenix)
Kurt Thomas
Marion (best player next to Nash but really not any better than a player like Odom for LA. did a lot of the "little things" though. Never put up many points again after leaving Phoenix)
Diaw (third string before Phoenix and never considered anything special after leaving Phoenix).

Barbosa (specialist scorer...very good bench player. Never the same after leavaing Phoenix)
Tim Thomas (one good year with Phoenix and never heard from again)
James Jones (decent spot up shooter)
eddie House (decent offensive player off the bench).

That's it. That much worse than Laker's roster or Nash made them seem better?

Watch Dudley and Gortat this year for Phoenix. These two players were two of the top 2-3 players for the Suns last year. See what kind of #'s they put up this year and how efficiently. Goftat was one of the top fg% shooters in the league last year...despite the fact that he cannot finish around the basket to save his life.

Also, that 2006 season was likely Nash's best. He picked up his scoring and was efficient as ever.

.439 3 pt%? .521 fg%? .921 ft%? Almost 11 assists? Are we really arguing this?

Here is an article on Has as the greatest offensive player ever: http://chasing23.com/why-steve-nash-is-the-greatest-offensive-player-ever/

Which I agree with to some degree. However, I think that things like drawing fouls and pure 1 on 1 ability go against Nash and one could argue that. Putting a team in foul trouble and getting off a shot with someone in your face are valuable. Which is why I think you can make a case for somebody like Jordan or Shaq. I do not though think there really is a case for a Magic, Stockton, Kobe, etc though. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. :D

Ebbs
10-15-2012, 04:42 PM
Rose should have been third his year.

Vinylman
10-15-2012, 05:39 PM
If other players were talking ridiculous amount of shots, they could probably have matched to 81 points or just miss it.

:facepalm:

PSD ... where stupidity reigns supreme

Vinylman
10-15-2012, 05:41 PM
22-4 with Pau playing, 35-21 without Pau playing. Pau made a hell of an impact on that team, regardless on the so called inconsistent talent throughout the season.

The Hornets actually had a better record than the Lakers before Pau came over. And they had the better record even though Kobe's sidekick>Paul's sidekick.

Nope... Lakers were the 1 seed before bynum got hurt... keep up the ********

dnewguy
10-15-2012, 06:27 PM
Rose and Kobe had no business winning MVP. As we saw last season, Rose has nothing to do with the Bulls playing well in the regular season.

ink
10-15-2012, 06:53 PM
Rose and Kobe had no business winning MVP. As we saw last season, Rose has nothing to do with the Bulls playing well in the regular season.

Well, nothing to do with it is a big stretch, but there is one point that people aren't making and that is the role of the coach. Thibodeau and Phil Jackson probably deserve a slice of a few players' MVP awards.

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 07:15 PM
Well, nothing to do with it is a big stretch, but there is one point that people aren't making and that is the role of the coach. Thibodeau and Phil Jackson probably deserve a slice of a few players' MVP awards.

Agreed. People get so caught up in the excitement that surrounds their favorite players (especially humble, exciting, great kids like Rose) that they forget the other aspects of the game that make up a team. Coaching and bench play has a huge impact on team records and regular season success.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-15-2012, 09:58 PM
The Lakers were the #1 seed before the Bynum injury. As soon as Kwame started for like 9 games, the Lakers went 3-6 and fell to the 6th seed in the West.

Then, when Kobe got a top 15 player, he barely got the 1st seed again.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-15-2012, 10:00 PM
Also i wanna add this, when we talk about Artest, everybody goes "he is garbage", when we talk about Odom, everybody again goes "he is garbage", same for fisher, even same for Gasol to a degree.

But when we talk about Kobe's accomplishments, everybody goes "but he had artest, odom, fisher, gasol, he was very lucky, he had a great supporing cast" etc. etc.

Great stuff.

When we say they are garbage, it's a clear exaggeration. Reality is, he had a great supporting cast, no matter what other people want to believe.

Rosh
10-15-2012, 10:01 PM
:laugh2: Wow

It's not his PR team... We are talking about a player (who might go down as the best ever) who doesn't gamble (Jordan, Mayweather), who doesn't tote guns or drugs (too many to name) who doesn't get caught in sexual scandals with white girls (Tiger, Kobe), who does not abuse animals (Vick), doesn't beat his wife (Kidd) doesn't get locked up or gets in trouble with the law (Melo), been accused of using steroids (every MLB star basically, Paquiao)... i could go on and on

Lebron is a world class athlete in every sense of the word. He gets hated on because his promotional team decided to make a huge deal about his free agency.

I think ppl like you just hate him because the media has been on his jock since he was a child. Funny how for being one of the most scrutinized athletes in all of sports he is one of the hardest to find any dirt on. He is a great guy by all accounts.

He made a decision to exercise his right to go to whatever team he wanted to as a FA and he did not hold his team hostage like other players. He simply did what was best for him. I hate this slave trader mentality that teams and their fans have. A player is obligated to stay with a team and be unhappy yet the team has the right to trade him wherever and whenever they want.

His ESPN special was over the top and a bad decision by his team and even if you wanna believe it was simply his decision (which is preposterous) so what!? The media has been jocking him since he was a child! Did it really surprise you THAT much that it happened that way? Even though according to ratings EVERYONE tuned in to watch?

Please. That's all you can say against him? I give up.


"The Chosen One" tattoo'd on his chest. Real humble. Chosen to do what? Ha! Up until last year, that was a total farce.

"I will not stop till I bring Cleveland a championship." Hmm, may not want to make as brazen statements as that if you're planning to bolt. PR spin to keep you afloat in your current city will only come back to haunt you when you leave.

"When the actual games start, it's gonna be EASY!" LeBron did nothing but come across as an immature child the last few years, and there's no one to blame but himself there. The dancing, the front-runner comments...he realized that he needed to check that all at the door if he was to be serious about winning. That was one of the biggest reasons he won last year, in my opinion.
This is not an entitled league, you get what you deserve.

He's a smart, extremely talented basketball player whose talent may surpass anyone who has ever played. But let's not get carried away on the gravy train and just lump him in with the likes of Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant who go about their business very quietly. They all have PR teams. LeBron got caught up in being 'LeBron'. Give him a few years. Last season was a good start. I think he's starting to realize what he needs to do to truly succeed.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-15-2012, 10:02 PM
Nope... Lakers were the 1 seed before bynum got hurt... keep up the ********

On February 2nd (the day before the Gasol deal), the Hornets had more wins than the Lakers.

No where in that statement was a lie. So nice try trying to belittle my post when it was actually all fact.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-15-2012, 10:09 PM
:facepalm:

PSD ... where stupidity reigns supreme

Lolololol, you don't think guys like Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, etc would reach 81 points (or at least 70 points) if they took 45 shots a game?

Chill_Will_24
10-15-2012, 10:29 PM
"The Chosen One" tattoo'd on his chest. Real humble. Chosen to do what? Ha! Up until last year, that was a total farce.

"I will not stop till I bring Cleveland a championship." Hmm, may not want to make as brazen statements as that if you're planning to bolt. PR spin to keep you afloat in your current city will only come back to haunt you when you leave.

"When the actual games start, it's gonna be EASY!" LeBron did nothing but come across as an immature child the last few years, and there's no one to blame but himself there. The dancing, the front-runner comments...he realized that he needed to check that all at the door if he was to be serious about winning. That was one of the biggest reasons he won last year, in my opinion.
This is not an entitled league, you get what you deserve.

He's a smart, extremely talented basketball player whose talent may surpass anyone who has ever played. But let's not get carried away on the gravy train and just lump him in with the likes of Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant who go about their business very quietly. They all have PR teams. LeBron got caught up in being 'LeBron'. Give him a few years. Last season was a good start. I think he's starting to realize what he needs to do to truly succeed.

Do you really want me to go find you the picture of Rose and his gang signs? Or bring up his SAT cheating scandal with Memphis? This is dumb.

So now you are talking about his tattoos? He IS the "Chosen One". He has been the chosen one by the media since he was a child. So what?

Dude you are seriously digging way too hard and pulling at straws to hate on this man when you have yet to address my point. When has Lebron ever been accused of any scandals, crimes, or even a freaking speeding violation?

Joe Johnson just claimed that his team is the best team in NY and that the Nets are title contenders. Does that make him a bad person? Saying things like that endears you to your fans.

Lebron by all accounts loved the city of Cleveland. He wanted to win so he left to a team and guess what? He won a championship.

So if you commit to buying a car and find a better one for a cheaper price you will buy the first car because you wanna keep your word?

That is stupid. I am done having this silly debate with you. Find me some legitimate proof that Lebron is someone that should be disliked and i will admit i am wrong. All you are bringing up is silly things that most people would just shrug off.. he danced and mocked Noah who is such a nice guy :cry: He did not deliver on his promise of delivering a title to Cleveland even though they surrounded him with trash :cry: He is cocky and got a dumb tattoo :cry: He did not notice the ball boy :cry:

Lebron haters truly make me laugh. Just because Rose is shy and doesn't wanna dance at All Star Weekend does not make him a better person than Lebron. Please. Ask most players about All Star Weekend and they all say its a time to chill and have fun with one another. The fact that Lebron will not stand there like a shy zombie does not make him and better or worse a person than Rose.

Please...

b@llhog24
10-15-2012, 10:46 PM
Also i wanna add this, when we talk about Artest, everybody goes "he is garbage", when we talk about Odom, everybody again goes "he is garbage", same for fisher, even same for Gasol to a degree.

But when we talk about Kobe's accomplishments, everybody goes "but he had artest, odom, fisher, gasol, he was very lucky, he had a great supporing cast" etc. etc.

Great stuff.

Honestly? Sounds like Laker fans. Defend the **** out of their players then crap on non fans for saying the same thing they said, but its whatever.


lmfao.. 3 people already posted the stats!! :facepalm:


We've establish that your grasp of statistics is fairly low. Stick to your intangible arguments, you're better off in that realm.

amos1er
10-15-2012, 10:59 PM
Rose was easily the least deserving. His stats were good but not great and his team record was more of a credit to Thibs defensive coaching. Bulls were still able to secure the one seed in the east the following year with Rose missing about half the season, therefore proving that there was no direct correlation to him directly being the main catalyst in their regular season success. Funny how BSPN still gave him credit as a top five player despite him missing half the season and his stats not even being top 10 worthy.

A stat line of 22, 8, and 3 with a TS% of 53 to go along with missing half the season is not worthy of being a top 5 player in the NBA.

In 2011 he posted 25, 8, and 4 on a TS% of 55. Not bad, but not really MVP worthy especially when you take into account that his team was able to secure the one seed the very next season with him missing 50% of the season.

ink
10-15-2012, 11:46 PM
Lolololol, you don't think guys like Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, etc would reach 81 points (or at least 70 points) if they took 45 shots a game?

Against a depleted and disheartened Raptors team a few weeks after the Carter trade debacle and coached brutally by Sam Mitchell who semi-benched Jalen Rose in the second half. Yeah probably at least 3 or 4 current scoring leaders could have put up 80+ points against that team.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-15-2012, 11:50 PM
If other players were talking ridiculous amount of shots, they could probably have matched to 81 points or just miss it.

Easier said then done Jordan shot a lot why didn't he score 81? Lebron has had big games? Durant? What's holding them back?
Lol you're so ignorant! Kobe was just on fire that game so no I don't think anyone in the league today could score 80+ not even 70

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-15-2012, 11:58 PM
Kobe

:facepalm:

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-15-2012, 11:59 PM
Rose and Kobe had no business winning MVP. As we saw last season, Rose has nothing to do with the Bulls playing well in the regular season.

Holy **** you serious are one of the least knowledgable posters here

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-16-2012, 12:01 AM
Against a depleted and disheartened Raptors team a few weeks after the Carter trade debacle and coached brutally by Sam Mitchell who semi-benched Jalen Rose in the second half. Yeah probably at least 3 or 4 current scoring leaders could have put up 80+ points against that team.

Hahaha no!! Just stop! :facepalm:

amos1er
10-16-2012, 12:05 AM
Against a depleted and disheartened Raptors team a few weeks after the Carter trade debacle and coached brutally by Sam Mitchell who semi-benched Jalen Rose in the second half. Yeah probably at least 3 or 4 current scoring leaders could have put up 80+ points against that team.

If thats true, than why didn't they? Lebron, Wade and Carmelo were in the league back in 2006 and had the same opportunity. Lebron and Wade even got to play against the Raptors more times in the regular season than Kobe did as they were in the east. Where was their 80+ point game then? Or even 60+ for that matter. Speaking of the east, there were a lot worse teams than the 2006 Raptors that Lebron and Wade have played against over the years yet were still unable to capitalize against by scoring 60+. Sounds like your logic is a bit off on this one.

MJ played against more startup expansion teams than Kobe, Lebron, Wade, or Carmelo yet was unable to score 70+. Maybe there is more to Kobe's 81 point game than just the supposed "lack of competition" you attribute it to.

Kobe's 81 has been hailed by nearly all credible basketball experts, analysts, players, coaches, and owners as being arguably more impressive on some levels than even Wilts 100. Give the guy his due and move on. Surely there are much more credible arguments for you to come up with to hate on Kobe than this. Back to the drawing board with you. :yawn:

amos1er
10-16-2012, 12:11 AM
Lolololol, you don't think guys like Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, etc would reach 81 points (or at least 70 points) if they took 45 shots a game?

On March 20, 2005 Lebron attempted 36 shots against the Raptors (same team Kobe scored 81 against). He only scored 56 points.

On March 14, 2009 Wade attempted 39 shots against the Jazz. He only scored 50 points.

Looks like your little theory just got blown out the window. Guess there is more to record breaking scoring performances than just "shooting a lot" after all. :rolleyes:

amos1er
10-16-2012, 01:28 AM
I love how all you haters attempt to discredit Kobe's 81 point performance by saying that he needed 46 Field goal attempts to get there. lol You all don't ever bring up that his TS% was an un heard of 74% that night. Do you all even realize how exceptional that is for that many field goal attempts.

I always use the analogy of Tyson Chandler or Andris Biendris having fg% of 60, and if FG% was such an indicator of offensive efficiency, then does it mean that they are more efficient offensively than Lebron. Of course the common response always is that Lebron shoots more and its harder to maintain a high fg% the more attempts you take. Now you see, I know this already, I just want to make you say it because I find it humorous how you all discredit Kobe on the very same pretense only when it is convenient for you.

That said, how come it's ok to discredit Kobe for needing 46 fg attempts to get 81 points even though his TS% was 76% and you all will openly admit, while in defense of Lebron, that the more field goals a player takes, the harder it is to maintain a high fg% and ts%. The fact that Kobe was able to take 46 shots and still get 81 points is truly a testament to just how truly great his 81 points really was.

Than of course I hear the pathetic argument of how if Lebron and Wade took 46 shots, they would easily be able to score 70+ points. Lets test that little theory now shall we.

Lebron's highest scoring performance came on March 20 2005 when he scored 56 points on 36 shot attempts. He did this on a TS% of 66%. Not bad, but Kobe was able to take 46 shots and still maintain a TS% of 74%. Needless to say, odds are that if Lebron took 10 more shots to equal Kobe's 46, he would not have passed 70 points at that current rate. There is no way to measure how much he could have scored at a TS% of 66% as we need to know the total of points scored if he had taken 46 shot attempts in order to measure his TS% and that information is unknown as it never happened. The best we could do is go off of Lebron's FG% that night which was 50%. If you add 10 more fg attempts to his total giving him 46 attempts and figure that since he shot 50% FG% that night that he could give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he could have maintained it even with 10 more fg attempts (which is doubtful as we all know its harder to maintain efficiency the more you shoot), that would only add 10 points max to his total giving him 66 points. That would be the best case scenario for Lebron and even then he still couldn't get past 70.

On Wade's best scoring night, he only scored 55 points on a TS% of 69%. He shot 30 times. Needless to say, if we add 16 attempts to Wade to give him 46, and adjust for the 63% fg he shot that night, that gives him 76 points max. Thats even assuming that he could maintain that high of an efficiency. Now, by that same argument, we can take Kobe's 62 in three quarters where he shot the ball 31 times on a TS% of 74% and add 15 attempts to that to give him 46. Then we can assume that he would have made 58% of those shots as that was his FG% that night. That would give him 79 points. Still more than Wade even on his best night giving him all the benefit of the doubt in the world and taking into account that in both Kobe's 81 point game and his 62 in 3 quarter game, he shot a TS% of 74% to Wade's 69%. Also, in Kobe's scenario, we actually could add on 15 shot attempts because he still had the 4th quarter left, Wade needed the whole game to get off 30 fg attempts to get his 55 points while Kobe was able to get 62 in three quarters off 31 fg attempts. Not to mention, Kobe had gotten 56 on 34 attempts with a TS% of 71% against Memphis back in 2002 in only three quarters as well.

Lets not even mention Kobe's 61 in MSG on 31 FG attempts on a TS% of 77%. That was his 4th best scoring game. Now lets compare that to Wade's best scoring game where he had 56 points on 30 attempts on a TS% of 69%.

Lebron's best scoring performance: 56 points on 36 attempts on a TS% of 66%
Kobe's 7th best scoring performance: 56 points on 34 attempts on a TS% of 71% in only 3 quarters of play.

With all that said....

:shush:

DR_1
10-16-2012, 01:31 AM
How did this turn into a Kobe thread :laugh2:

Laker Legend42
10-16-2012, 01:56 AM
This award kinda turned into employee of the month and you just watch it rotate around the office. I think Kobe should have gotten it in Nash's 2nd yr. cp3 led the leauge in two categories and near the top in a 3rd and should have won it over Kobe. Dirk didn't deserve it. He got bounced in the 1st round of the playoffs that year. The reason why I say that is because never has a player won it without making it to the 2nd round.

basketfan4life
10-16-2012, 03:30 AM
When we say they are garbage, it's a clear exaggeration. Reality is, he had a great supporting cast, no matter what other people want to believe.
exaggeration means, there is a reality in something but you blow it. You did what i said in one post. First you said we exaggerate,(so there is a reality to them being garbage), then you say they are great.


Lolololol, you don't think guys like Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, etc would reach 81 points (or at least 70 points) if they took 45 shots a game?

This looks like coming from someone who never played competition basketball. It's not taking 45 shots, It's creating 45 shots for yourself when you have garbage around you, it's very hard even when you have a great cast. You need to have a great variety of skill set to create 45 shots(46 actually) and great fundamentals and if you are that hot there comes 81 points. Other wise you will probably take tons of airballs. Kobe is one of the best shot creators this league has ever seen. I don't know how can you diminish something that happened twice in the history of entire league this simply. Not to mention it wasn't taking 46 shots, it was taking his team from 20 down and winning by 20. My goodness.

I believe Hawkeye played some kind of competitive basketball and i know he hates Kobe. Ask him, he is an objective fella, ask him how hard to create and take 46 shots in one game.

thenaj17
10-16-2012, 07:48 AM
:laugh2: Wow

It's not his PR team... We are talking about a player (who might go down as the best ever) who doesn't gamble (Jordan, Mayweather), who doesn't tote guns or drugs (too many to name) who doesn't get caught in sexual scandals with white girls (Tiger, Kobe), who does not abuse animals (Vick), doesn't beat his wife (Kidd) doesn't get locked up or gets in trouble with the law (Melo), been accused of using steroids (every MLB star basically, Paquiao)... i could go on and on

Lebron is a world class athlete in every sense of the word. He gets hated on because his promotional team decided to make a huge deal about his free agency.

I think ppl like you just hate him because the media has been on his jock since he was a child. Funny how for being one of the most scrutinized athletes in all of sports he is one of the hardest to find any dirt on. He is a great guy by all accounts.

He made a decision to exercise his right to go to whatever team he wanted to as a FA and he did not hold his team hostage like other players. He simply did what was best for him. I hate this slave trader mentality that teams and their fans have. A player is obligated to stay with a team and be unhappy yet the team has the right to trade him wherever and whenever they want.

His ESPN special was over the top and a bad decision by his team and even if you wanna believe it was simply his decision (which is preposterous) so what!? The media has been jocking him since he was a child! Did it really surprise you THAT much that it happened that way? Even though according to ratings EVERYONE tuned in to watch?

Please. That's all you can say against him? I give up.

Couldn't agree more with you about the double standards.

But the dancing around when winning is a ******* thing to do and extremely unsportsmanlike. Doesn't mean people should say he's a bad person though, they don't even know him!

rpgmaster86
10-16-2012, 08:07 AM
Duncan over Kidd in 02' or 03' I forget....Actually I think it was 03'

Bravo95
10-16-2012, 08:47 AM
Kobe and Lebron will both retire as Top 10 players of all-time. After everything we've seen those two accomplish over the last decade or so, anyone who actually tries to discredit them is a fool and doesn't know **** about basketball.

b@llhog24
10-16-2012, 08:50 AM
I love how all you haters attempt to discredit Kobe's 81 point performance by saying that he needed 46 Field goal attempts to get there. lol You all don't ever bring up that his TS% was an un heard of 74% that night. Do you all even realize how exceptional that is for that many field goal attempts.

I always use the analogy of Tyson Chandler or Andris Biendris having fg% of 60, and if FG% was such an indicator of offensive efficiency, then does it mean that they are more efficient offensively than Lebron. Of course the common response always is that Lebron shoots more and its harder to maintain a high fg% the more attempts you take. Now you see, I know this already, I just want to make you say it because I find it humorous how you all discredit Kobe on the very same pretense only when it is convenient for you.

That said, how come it's ok to discredit Kobe for needing 46 fg attempts to get 81 points even though his TS% was 76% and you all will openly admit, while in defense of Lebron, that the more field goals a player takes, the harder it is to maintain a high fg% and ts%. The fact that Kobe was able to take 46 shots and still get 81 points is truly a testament to just how truly great his 81 points really was.

Than of course I hear the pathetic argument of how if Lebron and Wade took 46 shots, they would easily be able to score 70+ points. Lets test that little theory now shall we.

Lebron's highest scoring performance came on March 20 2005 when he scored 56 points on 36 shot attempts. He did this on a TS% of 66%. Not bad, but Kobe was able to take 46 shots and still maintain a TS% of 74%. Needless to say, odds are that if Lebron took 10 more shots to equal Kobe's 46, he would not have passed 70 points at that current rate. There is no way to measure how much he could have scored at a TS% of 66% as we need to know the total of points scored if he had taken 46 shot attempts in order to measure his TS% and that information is unknown as it never happened. The best we could do is go off of Lebron's FG% that night which was 50%. If you add 10 more fg attempts to his total giving him 46 attempts and figure that since he shot 50% FG% that night that he could give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he could have maintained it even with 10 more fg attempts (which is doubtful as we all know its harder to maintain efficiency the more you shoot), that would only add 10 points max to his total giving him 66 points. That would be the best case scenario for Lebron and even then he still couldn't get past 70.

On Wade's best scoring night, he only scored 55 points on a TS% of 69%. He shot 30 times. Needless to say, if we add 16 attempts to Wade to give him 46, and adjust for the 63% fg he shot that night, that gives him 76 points max. Thats even assuming that he could maintain that high of an efficiency. Now, by that same argument, we can take Kobe's 62 in three quarters where he shot the ball 31 times on a TS% of 74% and add 15 attempts to that to give him 46. Then we can assume that he would have made 58% of those shots as that was his FG% that night. That would give him 79 points. Still more than Wade even on his best night giving him all the benefit of the doubt in the world and taking into account that in both Kobe's 81 point game and his 62 in 3 quarter game, he shot a TS% of 74% to Wade's 69%. Also, in Kobe's scenario, we actually could add on 15 shot attempts because he still had the 4th quarter left, Wade needed the whole game to get off 30 fg attempts to get his 55 points while Kobe was able to get 62 in three quarters off 31 fg attempts. Not to mention, Kobe had gotten 56 on 34 attempts with a TS% of 71% against Memphis back in 2002 in only three quarters as well.

Lets not even mention Kobe's 61 in MSG on 31 FG attempts on a TS% of 77%. That was his 4th best scoring game. Now lets compare that to Wade's best scoring game where he had 56 points on 30 attempts on a TS% of 69%.

Lebron's best scoring performance: 56 points on 36 attempts on a TS% of 66%
Kobe's 7th best scoring performance: 56 points on 34 attempts on a TS% of 71% in only 3 quarters of play.

With all that said....

:shush:

Aren't you the same guy who believes that LeBron and Wade can't score 60 points?

Hawkize31
10-16-2012, 08:57 AM
Rose, easily.

People say Rose carried that team. No. That team won with defense. Team defense. Tom Thibodeau was the key. They got contributions out of many players, and won as a team.

Ask yourself this question. If Lebron replaced Rose for that season, would the Bulls have been better? The answer is yes, they would have been much better.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-16-2012, 10:24 AM
On March 20, 2005 Lebron attempted 36 shots against the Raptors (same team Kobe scored 81 against). He only scored 56 points.

On March 14, 2009 Wade attempted 39 shots against the Jazz. He only scored 50 points.

Looks like your little theory just got blown out the window. Guess there is more to record breaking scoring performances than just "shooting a lot" after all. :rolleyes:

Yea, because when Kobe shot 45 attempts, it was on pace with his normal shooting % right? :rolleyes:

If you don't think players like LEbron, Wade, Durant have a chance to score a great number of points in a great number of attempts, you're delusional.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-16-2012, 10:28 AM
This looks like coming from someone who never played competition basketball. It's not taking 45 shots, It's creating 45 shots for yourself when you have garbage around you, it's very hard even when you have a great cast. You need to have a great variety of skill set to create 45 shots(46 actually) and great fundamentals and if you are that hot there comes 81 points. Other wise you will probably take tons of airballs. Kobe is one of the best shot creators this league has ever seen. I don't know how can you diminish something that happened twice in the history of entire league this simply. Not to mention it wasn't taking 46 shots, it was taking his team from 20 down and winning by 20. My goodness.

I believe Hawkeye played some kind of competitive basketball and i know he hates Kobe. Ask him, he is an objective fella, ask him how hard to create and take 46 shots in one game.

Where did I diminish it?

All I said that other stars have a chance to get high volume of points when given the chance. If you don't think Durant, Lebron, Wade doesn't have a chance, you're clearly wrong.

If Durant, Wade, LEbron attempt 45 shots, there's a chance they'll have a bad shooting night and score 30 points on 45 attempts. They might also be on fire and score 81 points on 45 attempts. That's all I said. Do they have the ability to score 81 points? Of course, these guys are bonafied scorers. It's a matter of opportunity and luck.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-16-2012, 10:30 AM
exaggeration means, there is a reality in something but you blow it. You did what i said in one post. First you said we exaggerate,(so there is a reality to them being garbage), then you say they are great.


Wrong. I said that other people exaggerated that Kobe had a bad supporting cast in 2008. In reality, they had one of the better supporting cast that year.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-16-2012, 10:32 AM
Easier said then done Jordan shot a lot why didn't he score 81? Lebron has had big games? Durant? What's holding them back?
Lol you're so ignorant! Kobe was just on fire that game so no I don't think anyone in the league today could score 80+ not even 70

What ignorance? I'm not taking away from Kobe at all. All I said was other great scorers have never had the opportunity to attempt 45 shots before. All the guys I listed are talented players who can take over a game. You're the one actually ignorant to think they don't have a chance. I never said they'd one-up Kobe. I said they'd be able to do something similar or just below him.

basketfan4life
10-16-2012, 11:00 AM
Wrong. I said that other people exaggerated that Kobe had a bad supporting cast in 2008. In reality, they had one of the better supporting cast that year.

You said "we" exaggerated... I didn't know we means other people.Sorry.

Gram
10-16-2012, 11:28 AM
Nash in 06.

Cal827
10-16-2012, 12:12 PM
deserving mvps dont lose in the first round against the 8th seed. ( and im saying 8th seed, when playoffs only had 8 teams it was different).

LOL you're right. Dirk didn't deserve that MVP one bit lol :D

superkegger
10-16-2012, 01:51 PM
nash's 2nd should have been Kobe's and Kobe's should arguable could have been Paul's.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2012, 01:58 PM
how did this turn into a Kobe thread? Damn.

Regarding his 81 point game, it was a perfect storm basically. He was on fire, he was obviously feeling physically great that day, the defense was terrible on him, and he just went nuts. Getting off 45 shot attempts, scoring almost 2 points per minute, is ridiculous, and almost impossible to do in the modern NBA. I am personally not expecting to see 81 again. From anyone. Unless its some 6 OT game I guess, but probably not even then.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-16-2012, 02:01 PM
how did this turn into a Kobe thread? Damn.

Regarding his 81 point game, it was a perfect storm basically. He was on fire, he was obviously feeling physically great that day, the defense was terrible on him, and he just went nuts. Getting off 45 shot attempts, scoring almost 2 points per minute, is ridiculous, and almost impossible to do in the modern NBA. I am personally not expecting to see 81 again. From anyone. Unless its some 6 OT game I guess, but probably not even then.

You got it all wrong, Kobe was his usual self scoring the ball, but the Lakers were playing zero defense and had a 20+ pt deficit in the 2nd qtr, and late in the 2nd and onwards, that's when Kobe cranked it up and went well. His first 68-70 pts were scored simply to overcome the deficit that the Raptors had levied on the Lakers. The last 10-12 was just Kobe saying **** you to Jalen Rose and Sam Mitchell.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2012, 02:05 PM
You got it all wrong, Kobe was his usual self scoring the ball, but the Lakers were playing zero defense and had a 20+ pt deficit in the 2nd qtr, and late in the 2nd and onwards, that's when Kobe cranked it up and went well. His first 68-70 pts were scored simply to overcome the deficit that the Raptors had levied on the Lakers. The last 10-12 was just Kobe saying **** you to Jalen Rose and Sam Mitchell.

I don't have it wrong. Usually, if Kobe shoots 45 times, he is not getting near 81. He was on fire, he must have woken up that day feeling great (that happens), and everything clicked. 7-13 on threes? That isn't Kobe. He just hit so many shots. And a ton of his shots were great looks, so he was just clicking on all cylinders.

I wasn't talking about the flow of the game, I simply mean, as a guy who used to shoot a lot, and score the basketball, its ridiculous to put forth 2 points per minute as a perimeter player. Simply ridiculous. It will probably not be done again.

dh144498
10-16-2012, 02:09 PM
inb4 Andrew32: Kobe in 2008.
oh wait....

todu82
10-16-2012, 02:12 PM
Steve Nash in 2006.

dh144498
10-16-2012, 02:14 PM
Where did I diminish it?

All I said that other stars have a chance to get high volume of points when given the chance. If you don't think Durant, Lebron, Wade doesn't have a chance, you're clearly wrong.

If Durant, Wade, LEbron attempt 45 shots, there's a chance they'll have a bad shooting night and score 30 points on 45 attempts. They might also be on fire and score 81 points on 45 attempts. That's all I said. Do they have the ability to score 81 points? Of course, these guys are bonafied scorers. It's a matter of opportunity and luck.

who cares, all you are doing is assuming they will because they are efficient scorers. But they haven't come close to 70 or 80, so whatever you are trying to say here is completely useless and a waste of time because they are just imaginary.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-16-2012, 02:22 PM
I don't have it wrong. Usually, if Kobe shoots 45 times, he is not getting near 81. He was on fire, he must have woken up that day feeling great (that happens), and everything clicked. 7-13 on threes? That isn't Kobe. He just hit so many shots. And a ton of his shots were great looks, so he was just clicking on all cylinders.

I wasn't talking about the flow of the game, I simply mean, as a guy who used to shoot a lot, and score the basketball, its ridiculous to put forth 2 points per minute as a perimeter player. Simply ridiculous. It will probably not be done again.

I don't know if it'll ever ben done again, but it would be nice to witness another performance like that in my lifetime.

amos1er
10-16-2012, 02:24 PM
Aren't you the same guy who believes that LeBron and Wade can't score 60 points?

Huh...When have they ever scored 60+ points? Seeing is believing. They have had plenty of opportunities.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2012, 02:24 PM
I don't know if it'll ever ben done again, but it would be nice to witness another performance like that in my lifetime.

for sure dude. I would love to see it. Sucks, I had to watch that game after the fact. At least I got to see it pretty quickly, so it felt live haha.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2012, 02:26 PM
Huh...When have they ever scored 60+ points? Seeing is believing. They have had plenty of opportunities.

I would think a 30-18-15 game for LeBron over a 60 point game first. LeBron isn't selfish enough to score 60 imo, and I don't mean that as a negative, its just his type of game.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-16-2012, 02:29 PM
for sure dude. I would love to see it. Sucks, I had to watch that game after the fact. At least I got to see it pretty quickly, so it felt live haha.

You know what was funny? It was a very low key Sunday night game, and usually Jack is always there, but he wasn't there for that game (shooting a movie or something) and Joel Myers (the monotonous Lakers play-by-play guy who was let go before the beginning of last season) were out for it. It was just so unexpected, I'm sure those guys and everyone else who is usually at Lakers games and didn't go to that are still kicking themselves to this day. :laugh2:

amos1er
10-16-2012, 02:32 PM
Yea, because when Kobe shot 45 attempts, it was on pace with his normal shooting % right? :rolleyes:

If you don't think players like LEbron, Wade, Durant have a chance to score a great number of points in a great number of attempts, you're delusional.

Nice hasty generalization there. At least I know who I'm dealing with. No point in arguing with you, you clearly lack the knowledge to even understand how completely off base you are.

I was adjusting their fg%'s based on the specific game they were playing in so that it would reflect the pace they were on that night. I know it now an exact science, but it did give Lebron and Wade the benefit of the doubt in every way possible. I doubt that Wade normally shoots 63% from the field...lol.

Even Hawkeye admits that the 81 point game was something special. Why can't you? Of course he is making it out that it was some kind of a fluke even though there have been many other instances where Kobe has been on fire similar to that night where he scored 81. But thats a whole other story. Baby steps.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2012, 02:38 PM
Nice hasty generalization there. At least I know who I'm dealing with. No point in arguing with you, you clearly lack the knowledge to even understand how completely off base you are.

I was adjusting their fg%'s based on the specific game they were playing in so that it would reflect the pace they were on that night. I know it now an exact science, but it did give Lebron and Wade the benefit of the doubt in every way possible. I doubt that Wade normally shoots 63% from the field...lol.

Even Hawkeye admits that the 81 point game was something special. Why can't you? Of course he is making it out that it was some kind of a fluke even though there have been many other instances where Kobe has been on fire similar to that night where he scored 81. But thats a whole other story. Baby steps.

Where did I say it was a fluke? Kobe has had some unreal scoring runs, but that was a once in lifetime game. It's not as if some 14 ppg scorer just went off one night, Kobe was a 30+ every time he stepped on the floor. But everything went perfect for him in that game. Obviously, because he has never come close to that otherwise...

Hawkeye15
10-16-2012, 02:40 PM
You know what was funny? It was a very low key Sunday night game, and usually Jack is always there, but he wasn't there for that game (shooting a movie or something) and Joel Myers (the monotonous Lakers play-by-play guy who was let go before the beginning of last season) were out for it. It was just so unexpected, I'm sure those guys and everyone else who is usually at Lakers games and didn't go to that are still kicking themselves to this day. :laugh2:

dude, Jack will probably have that bit on his gravestone.

"I have no regrets in life but one. And that is missing the 81 point game by Kobe, when I was filming The Departed. FML"

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-16-2012, 02:42 PM
Nice hasty generalization there. At least I know who I'm dealing with. No point in arguing with you, you clearly lack the knowledge to even understand how completely off base you are.

I was adjusting their fg%'s based on the specific game they were playing in so that it would reflect the pace they were on that night. I know it now an exact science, but it did give Lebron and Wade the benefit of the doubt in every way possible. I doubt that Wade normally shoots 63% from the field...lol.

Even Hawkeye admits that the 81 point game was something special. Why can't you? Of course he is making it out that it was some kind of a fluke even though there have been many other instances where Kobe has been on fire similar to that night where he scored 81. But thats a whole other story. Baby steps.
Durant maybe, but I don't agree with Raps08-09champs. LeBron and Wade are not pure scorers and nor do they have much versatility in their offensive repertoire as say a Kobe or KD, plus, they don't have that mentality where they can sustain scoring for 48 minutes. LeBron and Wade are above average scorers plus like to get others involved. KD is a flat out killer scorer, and Kobe in his prime was just in another galaxy.

dh144498
10-16-2012, 02:43 PM
dude, Jack will probably have that bit on his gravestone.

"I have no regrets in life but one. And that is missing the 81 point game by Kobe, when I was filming The Departed. FML"

I agree, a die hard Laker fan's life isn't complete until you were there in the stadium watching the 81 game.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2012, 02:49 PM
Durant maybe, but I don't agree with Raps08-09champs. LeBron and Wade are not pure scorers and nor do they have much versatility in their offensive repertoire as say a Kobe or KD, plus, they don't have that mentality where they can sustain scoring for 48 minutes. LeBron and Wade are above average scorers plus like to get others involved. KD is a flat out killer scorer, and Kobe in his prime was just in another galaxy.

well, Bron just doesn't shoot enough. 36 attempts is his career high. He is too much of a facilitator to mess with scoring records. Durant, maybe. But he aint getting 81 dude. Nobody is imho.

ink
10-16-2012, 04:09 PM
If thats true, than why didn't they? Lebron, Wade and Carmelo were in the league back in 2006 and had the same opportunity. Lebron and Wade even got to play against the Raptors more times in the regular season than Kobe did as they were in the east. Where was their 80+ point game then? Or even 60+ for that matter. Speaking of the east, there were a lot worse teams than the 2006 Raptors that Lebron and Wade have played against over the years yet were still unable to capitalize against by scoring 60+. Sounds like your logic is a bit off on this one.

MJ played against more startup expansion teams than Kobe, Lebron, Wade, or Carmelo yet was unable to score 70+. Maybe there is more to Kobe's 81 point game than just the supposed "lack of competition" you attribute it to.

Kobe's 81 has been hailed by nearly all credible basketball experts, analysts, players, coaches, and owners as being arguably more impressive on some levels than even Wilts 100. Give the guy his due and move on. Surely there are much more credible arguments for you to come up with to hate on Kobe than this. Back to the drawing board with you. :yawn:

I watched the game. It was more on the terrible Raptors than anything else that night. Teams hit bottom and bad teams hit harder than the rest. Jalen Rose commented on the fact that in the second half Sam Mitchell decided to bench him which backfired badly on Mitchell. btw the benching came BEFORE Kobe really went off. Sorry but it really was ugly basketball, more like layup drills and a shoot around than anything. The Lakers were barely challenged at all in the second half that night.

ink
10-16-2012, 04:24 PM
btw this has nothing to do with Kobe. If it were Melo, Wade, Lebron or anyone else I would have also shrugged on that night. Anomaly scoring records don't really have much to do with basketball and don't really demonstrate value over the long term. There are much better examples of Kobe's value.

Cal827
10-16-2012, 04:45 PM
I don't know if it'll ever ben done again, but it would be nice to witness another performance like that in my lifetime.

Ditto... As long as it isn't against my poor Raptors again lol. I remember when they were up by like 20 in that game :cry:

LOOTERX9
10-16-2012, 04:50 PM
Steve Nash's 2nd mvp was easily the most underserved mvp. And 2nd has to be Duncan's second mvp over Kidd in 2001

Andrew32
10-16-2012, 05:20 PM
I don't think Kobe is/was a better scorer then Bron or Wade.
They just have different offensive mentality's.

Kobe likes to score/score/score while Wade/Bron are more score/pass/score/pass.

Do I think Wade or Bron could score 70-80+ if given the same perfect storm circumstances Kobe had that night and if they purposely stayed in score mode the whole night?
Yes I do.

Hell even David Robinson got 70+pts against a sh*** clippers team when he decided to go for the scoring title and just score/score/score the whole game.

Kobe has his 81.
Robinson has his 71 / rebounds / blks / whatever
Shaq had his 61 / 21+
Lebron had his 51 / 11 / 11
Wade had his 45 / 11 / 11 / 4blk / 4stl

They are all in the same group to me.
All amazing nights but they don't really mean anything when judging these players.

R. Johnson#3
10-16-2012, 05:22 PM
Nash's 2nd

amos1er
10-16-2012, 05:25 PM
I don't think Kobe is/was a better scorer then Bron or Wade.
They just have different offensive mentality's.

Kobe likes to score/score/score while Wade/Bron are more score/pass/score/pass.

Do I think Wade or Bron could score 70-80+ if given the same perfect storm circumstances Kobe had that night and if they purposely stayed in score mode the whole night?
Yes I do.

Hell even David Robinson got 70+pts against a sh*** clippers team when he decided to go for the scoring title and just score/score/score the whole game.

Kobe has his 81.
Robinson has his 71 / rebounds / blks / whatever
Shaq had his 61 / 21+
Lebron had his 51 / 11 / 11
Wade had his 45 / 11 / 11 / 4blk / 4stl

They are all in the same group to me.
All amazing nights but they don't really mean anything when judging these players.

Right on cue...:rolleyes:

So many potential sig quotes in this one. Very tempting. lol

Raps18-19 Champ
10-16-2012, 07:31 PM
Nice hasty generalization there. At least I know who I'm dealing with. No point in arguing with you, you clearly lack the knowledge to even understand how completely off base you are.

Wrong. All I said were scenarios based on facts. You haven't shown anything.


I was adjusting their fg%'s based on the specific game they were playing in so that it would reflect the pace they were on that night. I know it now an exact science, but it did give Lebron and Wade the benefit of the doubt in every way possible. I doubt that Wade normally shoots 63% from the field...lol.

Adjusting what? It's not that hard. Kobe was extremely on fire with his shot and he just so happened to take a great number of shots the same night he was making +60% of his shots. Lebron, Durant, Wade and other scorers have had games where they were hot and shot over 60% from the field before while scoring a high number of points. It just so happens they didn't have the chance to shoot 45 times the same game either to increase their point total.

Do I expect 81 points to happen anytime soon? Of course not. It's a matter of opportunity and luck. Though that doesn't change the fact that there are others who could achieve great scoring numbers if they had the chance to take 45 shots while they were in a groove.


Even Hawkeye admits that the 81 point game was something special. Why can't you? Of course he is making it out that it was some kind of a fluke even though there have been many other instances where Kobe has been on fire similar to that night where he scored 81. But thats a whole other story. Baby steps.

I did admit it was a great achievement. Where did I say it wasn't?

Raps18-19 Champ
10-16-2012, 07:33 PM
who cares, all you are doing is assuming they will because they are efficient scorers. But they haven't come close to 70 or 80, so whatever you are trying to say here is completely useless and a waste of time because they are just imaginary.

They haven't come close because they never had the opportunity. I said they have a good chance to score great numbers when given the opportunity. The fact that you try to avoid that and can't even acknowledge what I'm saying is appalling.

dh144498
10-16-2012, 08:08 PM
They haven't come close because they never had the opportunity. I said they have a good chance to score great numbers when given the opportunity. The fact that you try to avoid that and can't even acknowledge what I'm saying is appalling.

You missed my point. What you are proposing is still a hypothetical situation where you are saying: "IF they were given the opportunity, then ____", which is pretty much a big waste of time. It's hypothetical, they've never done it, so why even propose the idea that Lebron, Wade, or Durant, or anybody could do it with ease if given "the right circumstances?" It's dumb. Just like the whole "replace Kobe with __ and Lakers still win" hypothesis. It's just an assumption.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-16-2012, 08:18 PM
You missed my point. What you are proposing is still a hypothetical situation where you are saying: "IF they were given the opportunity, then ____", which is pretty much a big waste of time. It's hypothetical, they've never done it, so why even propose the idea that Lebron, Wade, or Durant, or anybody could do it with ease if given "the right circumstances?" It's dumb. Just like the whole "replace Kobe with __ and Lakers still win" hypothesis. It's just an assumption.

That's part of sports (and life for that matter). Using previous knowledge to predict if a hypothetical situation is possible. Then determining if there will be the opportunity to prove your theory right.

People do it all the time.

Example: Lakers will win the title [Hypothetical situation/theory]. They will win because Dwight is the best Center, Kobe is a top 2 SG, Nash is a top 5 PG, and Pau is a top 5 PF [Reasons, previous knowledge and facts]. Wait for the NBA season to conclude [Opportunity to prove if your theory is correct].

Also, unlike the example you brought up regarding "replace Kobe with __ and Lakers still win", what I'm saying it actually possible. Lebron, Durant, Wade can go score 81 points in their season debut. Your scenario isn't realistic because you're using an example that would distort the laws of physics.

Chronz
10-16-2012, 09:10 PM
I watched the game. It was more on the terrible Raptors than anything else that night. Teams hit bottom and bad teams hit harder than the rest. Jalen Rose commented on the fact that in the second half Sam Mitchell decided to bench him which backfired badly on Mitchell. btw the benching came BEFORE Kobe really went off. Sorry but it really was ugly basketball, more like layup drills and a shoot around than anything. The Lakers were barely challenged at all in the second half that night.

Have you ever seen that game when MJ scored 20+ in like 5 minutes to close out the Raps?

ink
10-16-2012, 09:26 PM
Have you ever seen that game when MJ scored 20+ in like 5 minutes to close out the Raps?

Was it the Raps or the Grizzlies? I remember seeing a game played in Vancouver where he absolutely torched the Grizzlies to finish the game. :laugh2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp1LakhBh-U

That one?

gatkins11
10-16-2012, 09:56 PM
1. Iverson (2001)
Over Peak Shaq?

2. Rose (2011)
Just seemed like there were better players in the league at the time on good teams.
Not totally unreasonable though given his production and team record.

3. Kobe (2008)
CP3 was a better player and led his team to a similar record in the same conference.

4. Nash (2005 or 2006)
Shaq had a good case for the award in 2005 and Wade/Dirk/Kobe had good cases in 2006.

Honestly other then Iverson in 2001 I think all the MVP's given out the past 10-12 years were reasonable but if I had to make a list this would be mine.

Bingo.

basketfan4life
10-17-2012, 03:29 AM
I don't think Kobe is/was a better scorer then Bron or Wade.
They just have different offensive mentality's.

Kobe likes to score/score/score while Wade/Bron are more score/pass/score/pass.

Do I think Wade or Bron could score 70-80+ if given the same perfect storm circumstances Kobe had that night and if they purposely stayed in score mode the whole night?
Yes I do.

Hell even David Robinson got 70+pts against a sh*** clippers team when he decided to go for the scoring title and just score/score/score the whole game.

Kobe has his 81.
Robinson has his 71 / rebounds / blks / whatever
Shaq had his 61 / 21+
Lebron had his 51 / 11 / 11
Wade had his 45 / 11 / 11 / 4blk / 4stl

They are all in the same group to me.
All amazing nights but they don't really mean anything when judging these players.
when?