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View Full Version : Ranking Players: How Much Weight Do You Give To Rings?



JasonJohnHorn
10-10-2012, 04:31 PM
For me, rings are often about chance. Larry Bird and Magic, they got drafted by contenders. They were lucky. Kobe had the same situation, as did Duncan. As did Russell.

Gusy like Shaq, Jordan, James, Wade, Malone, Stockton, these guys were drafted by lottery teams. There was a lot of work to do before winning was even possible, and even when it was, it became about who else was out there.

Side note: Barkely was drafted by a contender, but things quickly went south for that 76ers team that COULD have hung on to Barkley, Malone and Dr. J.... anyways..


So, when I compare player, or rank them, which I think everybody likes to do, I don't put a lot of weight into rings. Lets face it. Kobe Bryant has been lucky. He got drafted by a team that had Shaq, and Eddie Jones and nick Van Exel, ect, ect, and picked up Rice and Horry and Fox.... and then Malone and Payton.... and when Shaq was gone he eventually got Bynum and Gasol and Odom work with... now he's got Howard... he's been very luck.

Duncan on the other hand, got drafted by a team that featured Robinson and soon picke dup Parker and Ginobili... but since then, well.... the Spurs have drafted well but it's not like they've picked up a player of Gasol stature to put alongside Duncan for another title run, and it's not like he's had somebody of Howard's stature thrown in... so the fact that he's going to retire with less rings than Kobe, that is more about what personal he had around him than what he was like as a player. And that said, he's still managed to lead his team to the best record in the western conference each of the last two season.


So... for me...I'm not one of these guys that rides Jordan's nut sack. I'm just not. He was awesome. The greatest shooting guard of all time. Where do I rank him though? Well for me, I got to watch Bird and Magic and Jordan, and they were each VERY special players... they were on their own level. I have all three of them as equals in my own mind. Ahead of them? It's so hard to judge things from one generation to the next, but Russell, Kareem, Wilt and the big O are all up there. Are they ahead of Jordan, bird and Magic? I dunno... at one time I would have said yes, but now I wonder.

LBJ... when he retires he will be on the same plane as jordan and Bird and Magic.

Kobe... he's just not there. Kobe is like Jordan, but in everything Jordan was good at, Kobe is clearly inferior. Everything thing that Kobe does, Jordan did better. For me, Kobe is just not at the same level as Jordan and Bird and Magic, and in turn, Wilt and Kareem and Russell and the Big O (and James for that matter).

Shaq... well... I'd have to put him ahead of Kobe... then there are the like of Garnett, Ducan, Malone, Barkley and Stockton. Of these players, only Duncan has won mutliple titles. Of the rest, only one has a ring; Garnett. Some people will rank Kobe ahead of a lot of the guys I mentioned (Bird for example) and cite the fact that Kobe has more rings. But, Garnett has more rings than Malone... does that make him better? Isiah Thomas has more rings than Stockton. Does that make him better?

I look at a guy like Gervin, and Bob Lanier, who never even really had a lot of deep playoff runs, and failed to even get to the finals in their respective careers, but they are still among the best ever at their positions (though Gervin is admittedly higher on the SG ladder than Lanier is on the center ladder). Gervin was one of the best defenders at his position and likely is the player that is more comparable to Kobe than is Jordan.

It's all a big mess, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me that Stockton and Malone and Barkley have zero rings, while Thomas has more ring than Stockton, Stockton is still the better poing guard. Dumars, who I love, has more rings than Gervin, but I don't think anybody here is going to be putting Dumars ahead of Gervin on the SG guard list any time soon.

So, does the fact that Kobe has more rings than Bird make him better? I mean, using that logic Russell is clearly the greatest player of all time, yet most people still put Chamberlain ahead of Russell despite the fact that Russell won all the playoff matches AGAINST Wilt....

It just seems to me that some people use the 'he's got more rings, so he's better' arguement for some players, but completely leave it out for others. I will agree that Kobe has had a better career than Bird, but Bird got McHale and Parish to work with and that was all.. he didn't get upgrade to Pau Gasol halfway through his career, and then to Dwight Howard at the end of it... he worked with other aging stars... Bird... his career was not as impressive as Kobe's, but he's still a better player in my eyes.

Anyways... I don't mean for this to be a Kobe thread.. it's about rings... Kobe is just an example because of a recent thread.

So... how important are rings when ranking a player for you?

BklynKnicks3
10-10-2012, 04:39 PM
alot unless they are cowards like lebron

dh144498
10-10-2012, 04:42 PM
For me, rings are often about chance. Larry Bird and Magic, they got drafted by contenders. They were lucky. Kobe had the same situation, as did Duncan. As did Russell.

Gusy like Shaq, Jordan, James, Wade, Malone, Stockton, these guys were drafted by lottery teams. There was a lot of work to do before winning was even possible, and even when it was, it became about who else was out there.

Side note: Barkely was drafted by a contender, but things quickly went south for that 76ers team that COULD have hung on to Barkley, Malone and Dr. J.... anyways..


So, when I compare player, or rank them, which I think everybody likes to do, I don't put a lot of weight into rings. Lets face it. Kobe Bryant has been lucky. He got drafted by a team that had Shaq, and Eddie Jones and nick Van Exel, ect, ect, and picked up Rice and Horry and Fox.... and then Malone and Payton.... and when Shaq was gone he eventually got Bynum and Gasol and Odom work with... now he's got Howard... he's been very luck.

Duncan on the other hand, got drafted by a team that featured Robinson and soon picke dup Parker and Ginobili... but since then, well.... the Spurs have drafted well but it's not like they've picked up a player of Gasol stature to put alongside Duncan for another title run, and it's not like he's had somebody of Howard's stature thrown in... so the fact that he's going to retire with less rings than Kobe, that is more about what personal he had around him than what he was like as a player. And that said, he's still managed to lead his team to the best record in the western conference each of the last two season.


So... for me...I'm not one of these guys that rides Jordan's nut sack. I'm just not. He was awesome. The greatest shooting guard of all time. Where do I rank him though? Well for me, I got to watch Bird and Magic and Jordan, and they were each VERY special players... they were on their own level. I have all three of them as equals in my own mind. Ahead of them? It's so hard to judge things from one generation to the next, but Russell, Kareem, Wilt and the big O are all up there. Are they ahead of Jordan, bird and Magic? I dunno... at one time I would have said yes, but now I wonder.

LBJ... when he retires he will be on the same plane as jordan and Bird and Magic.

Kobe... he's just not there. Kobe is like Jordan, but in everything Jordan was good at, Kobe is clearly inferior. Everything thing that Kobe does, Jordan did better. For me, Kobe is just not at the same level as Jordan and Bird and Magic, and in turn, Wilt and Kareem and Russell and the Big O (and James for that matter).

Shaq... well... I'd have to put him ahead of Kobe... then there are the like of Garnett, Ducan, Malone, Barkley and Stockton. Of these players, only Duncan has won mutliple titles. Of the rest, only one has a ring; Garnett. Some people will rank Kobe ahead of a lot of the guys I mentioned (Bird for example) and cite the fact that Kobe has more rings. But, Garnett has more rings than Malone... does that make him better? Isiah Thomas has more rings than Stockton. Does that make him better?

I look at a guy like Gervin, and Bob Lanier, who never even really had a lot of deep playoff runs, and failed to even get to the finals in their respective careers, but they are still among the best ever at their positions (though Gervin is admittedly higher on the SG ladder than Lanier is on the center ladder). Gervin was one of the best defenders at his position and likely is the player that is more comparable to Kobe than is Jordan.

It's all a big mess, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me that Stockton and Malone and Barkley have zero rings, while Thomas has more ring than Stockton, Stockton is still the better poing guard. Dumars, who I love, has more rings than Gervin, but I don't think anybody here is going to be putting Dumars ahead of Gervin on the SG guard list any time soon.

So, does the fact that Kobe has more rings than Bird make him better? I mean, using that logic Russell is clearly the greatest player of all time, yet most people still put Chamberlain ahead of Russell despite the fact that Russell won all the playoff matches AGAINST Wilt....

It just seems to me that some people use the 'he's got more rings, so he's better' arguement for some players, but completely leave it out for others. I will agree that Kobe has had a better career than Bird, but Bird got McHale and Parish to work with and that was all.. he didn't get upgrade to Pau Gasol halfway through his career, and then to Dwight Howard at the end of it... he worked with other aging stars... Bird... his career was not as impressive as Kobe's, but he's still a better player in my eyes.

Anyways... I don't mean for this to be a Kobe thread.. it's about rings... Kobe is just an example because of a recent thread.

So... how important are rings when ranking a player for you?

Nice agenda. I'm not gonna argue with you because you are a biased Lebron d1ckrider. But you should at least get your facts straight. Kobe was drafted by the Hornets and traded to the Lakers.

hugepatsfan
10-10-2012, 04:44 PM
Rings in basketball are probably more important than in any other sport because one player has more of an impact on the game. But overall, it still shouldn't be a top factor.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-10-2012, 04:52 PM
It only matters when it's convenient for the argument... When discussing LeBron it doesn't matter that he has one. It matters that he doesn't have 500 rings. When discussing Iverson, it matters that he doesn't have one.

JasonJohnHorn
10-10-2012, 04:59 PM
Nice agenda. I'm not gonna argue with you because you are a biased Lebron d1ckrider. But you should at least get your facts straight. Kobe was drafted by the Hornets and traded to the Lakers.

:facepalm:

Yeah.. he got drafted by ther Hornets and had to play there for a decade before winning a title... THE FACT IS HE STARTED ON A TEAM THAT WAS A CONTENDER!!! He never played a single game in a Hornets uniform... so your point, while acurate, has no impact on the thread. And if you knew anything, you would know that the Lakers INSTRUCTED the Hornets to pick Kobe because that was who they wanted to get the trade done. So the selection was done by LA.

As for being a LeBron d!ckryder.... if you've ever read any of my posts from the last twso years you'll see that I don't even LIKE LeBron... not since he went to Miami. but he's still an amazing player.

If either of us is ryding a d!ck it's you rydin' kobe's.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-10-2012, 05:01 PM
Depends how much they contributed to get that ring and the situation. Like if you get drafted on a bad team and only have 1-2 rings, doesn't mean you are worse than another player because they got 4 rings because they were drafted on a good team right away.

If they don't have a ring, I'd take into consideration the situation.

Chronz
10-10-2012, 05:02 PM
I think by now we've all found ways to selectively hold things against different players. Rings play into that but its much more complex than simply looking at rings, I think we all agree with that. Except for Kobe stans, who want each rings to level him up the rankings even thought we've already seen his best.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 05:02 PM
Rings to me are practically meaningless if a player has proved once or twice that they are capable of sustaining a high level of play throughout an entire playoff run and in the Finals.

Championships are a team accomplishment and how many a player eventually gets is way more effected by his career circumstances, supporting casts and simple luck then by his own individual play.

Why is Hakeem in the Top 10?
Why is Russell not #1 on everyones GOAT list?
Why is Wilt on anyones Top 10 list?

Why is Havlichek not in everyones Top 10 list?
Why is Pippen outside the Top 20?

Raps08-09 Champ
10-10-2012, 05:03 PM
Nice agenda. I'm not gonna argue with you because you are a biased Lebron d1ckrider. But you should at least get your facts straight. Kobe was drafted by the Hornets and traded to the Lakers.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Ooooooooo he made a mistake. At the end of the day, guys like Kobe, Magic, Duncan had it lucky being on teams that already had stars their 1st/2nd year while guys like Lebron, Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem had to wait years to get the same supporting cast.

JNoel
10-10-2012, 05:05 PM
alot unless they are cowards like lebron

The only coward here is you, sitting behind your computer talking **** about players while not even knowing them personally. Try telling that to Lebron in real life, he'll show you what a real coward you are. :pity:

Chronz
10-10-2012, 05:08 PM
Rings to me are practically meaningless if a player has proved once or twice that they are capable of sustaining a high level of play throughout an entire playoff run and in the Finals.

Championships are a team accomplishment and how many a player eventually gets is way more effected by his career circumstances, supporting casts and simple luck then by his own individual play.

Why is Hakeem in the Top 10?
Why is Russell not #1 on everyones GOAT list?
Why is Wilt on anyones Top 10 list?

Why is Havlichek not in everyones Top 10 list?
Why is Pippen outside the Top 20?

I see it likes this, if you prove capable of winning 1 then each sucessive one thereafter becomes less about winning than about sustaining your championship form (win or loss) and what you got out of your team. If you win 2 titles in the 3 years you had championship talent, that would mean more to me than winning 3 with 9 years of championship support. This of course depends on how the individual played but I personally have Dream comfortably ahead of Bird for this reason.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-10-2012, 05:08 PM
The only coward here is you, sitting behind your computer talking **** about players while not even knowing them personally. Try telling that to Lebron in real life, he'll show you what a real coward you are. :pity:

Nah. Lebron won't do anything. Because he knows that he'll get a lawsuit if he does. Then again, it's a ***** move to start something then file a lawsuit if someone kicks your ***. So I guess the guy sitting behind the computer is still a *****.

JasonJohnHorn
10-10-2012, 05:09 PM
Rings to me are practically meaningless if a player has proved once or twice that they are capable of sustaining a high level of play throughout an entire playoff run and in the Finals.

Championships are a team accomplishment and how many a player eventually gets is way more effected by his career circumstances, supporting casts and simple luck then by his own individual play.

Why is Hakeem in the Top 10?
Why is Russell not #1 on everyones GOAT list?
Why is Wilt on anyones Top 10 list?

Why is Havlichek not in everyones Top 10 list?
Why is Pippen outside the Top 20?

I got Hakeem and Robinson in my top ten... but I think most people will think I'm crazy for it... lol

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-10-2012, 05:09 PM
The only coward here is you, sitting behind your computer talking **** about players while not even knowing them personally. Try telling that to Lebron in real life, he'll show you what a real coward acts like. :pity:

Lol... LeBron problley hears that all the time. And 2nd, No, he wouldn't do anything. LeBron would be in prison right now if he "showed" a random person, what "cowards act like" everytime someone called him a coward. These dudes are ball players.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-10-2012, 05:10 PM
For me, rings are often about chance. Larry Bird and Magic, they got drafted by contenders. They were lucky. Kobe had the same situation, as did Duncan. As did Russell.

Gusy like Shaq, Jordan, James, Wade, Malone, Stockton, these guys were drafted by lottery teams. There was a lot of work to do before winning was even possible, and even when it was, it became about who else was out there.

Side note: Barkely was drafted by a contender, but things quickly went south for that 76ers team that COULD have hung on to Barkley, Malone and Dr. J.... anyways..


So, when I compare player, or rank them, which I think everybody likes to do, I don't put a lot of weight into rings. Lets face it. Kobe Bryant has been lucky. He got drafted by a team that had Shaq, and Eddie Jones and nick Van Exel, ect, ect, and picked up Rice and Horry and Fox.... and then Malone and Payton.... and when Shaq was gone he eventually got Bynum and Gasol and Odom work with... now he's got Howard... he's been very luck.

Duncan on the other hand, got drafted by a team that featured Robinson and soon picke dup Parker and Ginobili... but since then, well.... the Spurs have drafted well but it's not like they've picked up a player of Gasol stature to put alongside Duncan for another title run, and it's not like he's had somebody of Howard's stature thrown in... so the fact that he's going to retire with less rings than Kobe, that is more about what personal he had around him than what he was like as a player. And that said, he's still managed to lead his team to the best record in the western conference each of the last two season.


So... for me...I'm not one of these guys that rides Jordan's nut sack. I'm just not. He was awesome. The greatest shooting guard of all time. Where do I rank him though? Well for me, I got to watch Bird and Magic and Jordan, and they were each VERY special players... they were on their own level. I have all three of them as equals in my own mind. Ahead of them? It's so hard to judge things from one generation to the next, but Russell, Kareem, Wilt and the big O are all up there. Are they ahead of Jordan, bird and Magic? I dunno... at one time I would have said yes, but now I wonder.

LBJ... when he retires he will be on the same plane as jordan and Bird and Magic.

Kobe... he's just not there. Kobe is like Jordan, but in everything Jordan was good at, Kobe is clearly inferior. Everything thing that Kobe does, Jordan did better. For me, Kobe is just not at the same level as Jordan and Bird and Magic, and in turn, Wilt and Kareem and Russell and the Big O (and James for that matter).

Shaq... well... I'd have to put him ahead of Kobe... then there are the like of Garnett, Ducan, Malone, Barkley and Stockton. Of these players, only Duncan has won mutliple titles. Of the rest, only one has a ring; Garnett. Some people will rank Kobe ahead of a lot of the guys I mentioned (Bird for example) and cite the fact that Kobe has more rings. But, Garnett has more rings than Malone... does that make him better? Isiah Thomas has more rings than Stockton. Does that make him better?

I look at a guy like Gervin, and Bob Lanier, who never even really had a lot of deep playoff runs, and failed to even get to the finals in their respective careers, but they are still among the best ever at their positions (though Gervin is admittedly higher on the SG ladder than Lanier is on the center ladder). Gervin was one of the best defenders at his position and likely is the player that is more comparable to Kobe than is Jordan.

It's all a big mess, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me that Stockton and Malone and Barkley have zero rings, while Thomas has more ring than Stockton, Stockton is still the better poing guard. Dumars, who I love, has more rings than Gervin, but I don't think anybody here is going to be putting Dumars ahead of Gervin on the SG guard list any time soon.

So, does the fact that Kobe has more rings than Bird make him better? I mean, using that logic Russell is clearly the greatest player of all time, yet most people still put Chamberlain ahead of Russell despite the fact that Russell won all the playoff matches AGAINST Wilt....

It just seems to me that some people use the 'he's got more rings, so he's better' arguement for some players, but completely leave it out for others. I will agree that Kobe has had a better career than Bird, but Bird got McHale and Parish to work with and that was all.. he didn't get upgrade to Pau Gasol halfway through his career, and then to Dwight Howard at the end of it... he worked with other aging stars... Bird... his career was not as impressive as Kobe's, but he's still a better player in my eyes.

Anyways... I don't mean for this to be a Kobe thread.. it's about rings... Kobe is just an example because of a recent thread.

So... how important are rings when ranking a player for you?

Spot on dude.
Although I personally feel Jordan is the greatest of all time, ahead of bird and co,
Based on his talents and performances.

His playoff performance only makes his case that much better. LeBron, Shaq, and Jordan have the top 3 full playoff performances in NBA history.

That speaks volumes.

Rings should be one aspect used in judging greatness, it shouldn't be the only one.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-10-2012, 05:12 PM
Lol these Knicks fans really make the whole fan base look like idiots.

That's a shame.

abe_froman
10-10-2012, 05:13 PM
quite abit actually.not for secondary or role players but for the alpha guys,def do

JordansBulls
10-10-2012, 05:15 PM
Rings as a key piece are a good way to stratify players who had help and those who didn't, but beyond that, you're talking about playoff performances.

Now obviously winning is important, but it depends on how you win as well. Playing for an organization that is known for winning is pretty simple. For instance, the Lakers are a winning organization so it is easy for top 3-5 players in the league playing with LA to win titles. Nearly every decade they have been in the finals and/or won Titles. So obviously when a big name is there they will win. That won't happen with any other franchise automatically except maybe Boston.

Mikan 5 finals in 6 years with the Lakers
Jerry West 9 Finals with the Lakers
Magic 9 finals with the Lakers
Kareem 8 finals with the Lakers
Kobe 7 finals with the Lakers


I think it is pretty obvious that playing with the Lakers means you will be in the finals plenty of times. So what happens if those players played with an organization that had never been in the finals? That is a different. They certainly are good enough to get to the finals and win a few titles, but they wouldn't get there nearly as much with different franchises.

Bulls were not a winning organization until MJ came along and and since he left still is a losing organization

Rockets were not a winning organization until Hakeem came along and once he left have not had much success (past the first round once in 12 years)

Pistons were not a winning organization until Isiah came along

The Spurs were constantly winning 50+ games with David Robinson but didn't start winning titles until Duncan came along.


When players are close in all time ranking and overall the taking a franchise that never won before matters.


For instance, Isiah taking an organization to titles as the man for an organization that has not won before doesn't put him ahead of someone like Magic because Magic was clearly a better player. However Hakeem taking an organization that never won before can certainly put him above someone like Bird or Shaq since they are all relatively the same level.

JNoel
10-10-2012, 05:18 PM
Nah. Lebron won't do anything. Because he knows that he'll get a lawsuit if he does. Then again, it's a ***** move to start something then file a lawsuit if someone kicks your ***. So I guess the guy sitting behind the computer is still a *****.


Lol... LeBron problley hears that all the time. And 2nd, No, he wouldn't do anything. LeBron would be in prison right now if he "showed" a random person, what "cowards act like" everytime someone called him a coward. These dudes are ball players.

This guy is so ignorant and trolls in most threads, and when he disrespects the best player on a post that isn't even relevant to the topic, it pisses me off when he thinks he's all big behind his computer calling Lebron a coward thinking it will go without consequences. I thought someone had to say something.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-10-2012, 05:25 PM
This guy is so ignorant and trolls in most threads, and when he disrespects the best player on a post that isn't even related to the topic, it pisses me off when he thinks he's all big behind his computer calling Lebron a coward thinking it will go without consequences. I thought someone had to say something.

LOLOL yea i know what you mean. Some people are just mad and call him a coward, because he didn't go to there team. I don't think 'Bron's a coward @ all. He went to accomplish a goal, that wasn't realisticallt attainable in his situation @ that specific time. Went to MIA and got the job done as the man. IDK to each his own.

JNoel
10-10-2012, 05:33 PM
LOLOL yea i know what you mean. Some people are just mad and call him a coward, because he didn't go to there team. I don't think 'Bron's a coward @ all. He went to accomplish a goal, that wasn't realisticallt attainable in his situation @ that specific time. Went to MIA and got the job done as the man. IDK to each his own.

Just in general, you don't have to like him as a person or player, but when you go in public with ignorant statements like "he's a coward" with nothing to support it, it makes that person look like a fool who is obviously trolling/baiting or is a blatant hater.

heyman321
10-10-2012, 05:34 PM
Nice agenda. I'm not gonna argue with you because you are a biased Lebron d1ckrider. But you should at least get your facts straight. Kobe was drafted by the Hornets and traded to the Lakers.

So essentially he was drafted by the Lakers. Everyone knows he was drafted by the Hornets, then traded. Nice moot point you chump.

mngopher35
10-10-2012, 07:47 PM
It all depends on the context. Who were his teammates? what was the competition? Most importantly how did the player play in his playoffs runs? I dont hold each ring as a huge factor when ranking. Rings are a part of the equation but the context is whats most important. There are many other factors I hold higher, such as playoff performance, peak, longevity, statistics, on court impact etc.

dh144498
10-11-2012, 10:20 AM
So essentially he was drafted by the Lakers. Everyone knows he was drafted by the Hornets, then traded. Nice moot point you chump.

How is that "essentially" drafted by the Lakers.... I swear these ridiculous kobe haters come up with worse excuses everyday. no logic whatsoever.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:25 AM
The only coward here is you, sitting behind your computer talking **** about players while not even knowing them personally. Try telling that to Lebron in real life, he'll show you what a real coward you are. :pity:

arrange it and ill do it. When i say coward i mean it from a basketball standpoint of the court i dont know anything about him or care

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:29 AM
This guy is so ignorant and trolls in most threads, and when he disrespects the best player on a post that isn't even relevant to the topic, it pisses me off when he thinks he's all big behind his computer calling Lebron a coward thinking it will go without consequences. I thought someone had to say something.

HE is a coward blessed with the most talent of any player ever taking ever shortcut possible to win. You got a problem with me saying that great ask em if i care.

bucketss
10-11-2012, 10:33 AM
The only coward here is you, sitting behind your computer talking **** about players while not even knowing them personally. Try telling that to Lebron in real life, he'll show you what a real coward you are. :pity:

last time he said he hopes lebron beats him up so he could sue him lol . i guess thats how they get down in brooklyn.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-11-2012, 10:34 AM
HE is a coward blessed with the most talent of any player ever taking ever shortcut possible to win. You got a problem with me saying that great ask em if i care.

you are such a whiny jealous fan lol

calm down, he didnt join new york, its been 2 years kid. move on.

just look at his frame of work and improvements to find out what "shortcuts" he takes lol

you do realize you're giving your fan base a horrible rep right?

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-11-2012, 10:35 AM
last time he said he hopes lebron beats him up so he could sue him lol . i guess thats how they get down in brooklyn.

he probably lives in new jersey lol hence his logic.

jersey shore would explain a lot.

bucketss
10-11-2012, 10:37 AM
you are such a whiny jealous fan lol

calm down, he didnt join new york, its been 2 years kid. move on.

just look at his frame of work and improvements to find out what "shortcuts" he takes lol

you do realize you're giving your fan base a horrible rep right?

his response will be .. blah blah i never wanted him blah blah i always wanted melo blah blah if he joined new york i would no longer be a knicks fan.

C-Style
10-11-2012, 10:41 AM
Yeah Kobe is the only lucky one. Gtfo here... Lebron Wade & Bosh are fortunate for the opportunity to play with each other in their prime. Shaq is lucky Lakers had the cap to sign him. Wilt & West were lucky to play with each other or else they would be sitting on 0 rings and Kareem is lucky to play with the big O and that the Lakers were able to get Magic. MJ is lucky for being able to play for such a great franchise.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:49 AM
you are such a whiny jealous fan lol

calm down, he didnt join new york, its been 2 years kid. move on.

just look at his frame of work and improvements to find out what "shortcuts" he takes lol

you do realize you're giving your fan base a horrible rep right?

If lebron came to the knicks i might stop being a fan. I never really wanted him because i never was a fan of his lack of clutch ways n diva ways but i wasnt totally against the fact that he has so little balls by joining his competition makes me hate him as a player.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:50 AM
he probably lives in new jersey lol hence his logic.

jersey shore would explain a lot.

no i live brooklyn coney island 11224

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-11-2012, 10:50 AM
For me, rings are often about chance. Larry Bird and Magic, they got drafted by contenders. They were lucky. Kobe had the same situation, as did Duncan. As did Russell.

Gusy like Shaq, Jordan, James, Wade, Malone, Stockton, these guys were drafted by lottery teams. There was a lot of work to do before winning was even possible, and even when it was, it became about who else was out there.

Side note: Barkely was drafted by a contender, but things quickly went south for that 76ers team that COULD have hung on to Barkley, Malone and Dr. J.... anyways..


So, when I compare player, or rank them, which I think everybody likes to do, I don't put a lot of weight into rings. Lets face it. Kobe Bryant has been lucky. He got drafted by a team that had Shaq, and Eddie Jones and nick Van Exel, ect, ect, and picked up Rice and Horry and Fox.... and then Malone and Payton.... and when Shaq was gone he eventually got Bynum and Gasol and Odom work with... now he's got Howard... he's been very luck.

Duncan on the other hand, got drafted by a team that featured Robinson and soon picke dup Parker and Ginobili... but since then, well.... the Spurs have drafted well but it's not like they've picked up a player of Gasol stature to put alongside Duncan for another title run, and it's not like he's had somebody of Howard's stature thrown in... so the fact that he's going to retire with less rings than Kobe, that is more about what personal he had around him than what he was like as a player. And that said, he's still managed to lead his team to the best record in the western conference each of the last two season.


So... for me...I'm not one of these guys that rides Jordan's nut sack. I'm just not. He was awesome. The greatest shooting guard of all time. Where do I rank him though? Well for me, I got to watch Bird and Magic and Jordan, and they were each VERY special players... they were on their own level. I have all three of them as equals in my own mind. Ahead of them? It's so hard to judge things from one generation to the next, but Russell, Kareem, Wilt and the big O are all up there. Are they ahead of Jordan, bird and Magic? I dunno... at one time I would have said yes, but now I wonder.

LBJ... when he retires he will be on the same plane as jordan and Bird and Magic.

Kobe... he's just not there. Kobe is like Jordan, but in everything Jordan was good at, Kobe is clearly inferior. Everything thing that Kobe does, Jordan did better. For me, Kobe is just not at the same level as Jordan and Bird and Magic, and in turn, Wilt and Kareem and Russell and the Big O (and James for that matter).

Shaq... well... I'd have to put him ahead of Kobe... then there are the like of Garnett, Ducan, Malone, Barkley and Stockton. Of these players, only Duncan has won mutliple titles. Of the rest, only one has a ring; Garnett. Some people will rank Kobe ahead of a lot of the guys I mentioned (Bird for example) and cite the fact that Kobe has more rings. But, Garnett has more rings than Malone... does that make him better? Isiah Thomas has more rings than Stockton. Does that make him better?

I look at a guy like Gervin, and Bob Lanier, who never even really had a lot of deep playoff runs, and failed to even get to the finals in their respective careers, but they are still among the best ever at their positions (though Gervin is admittedly higher on the SG ladder than Lanier is on the center ladder). Gervin was one of the best defenders at his position and likely is the player that is more comparable to Kobe than is Jordan.

It's all a big mess, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me that Stockton and Malone and Barkley have zero rings, while Thomas has more ring than Stockton, Stockton is still the better poing guard. Dumars, who I love, has more rings than Gervin, but I don't think anybody here is going to be putting Dumars ahead of Gervin on the SG guard list any time soon.

So, does the fact that Kobe has more rings than Bird make him better? I mean, using that logic Russell is clearly the greatest player of all time, yet most people still put Chamberlain ahead of Russell despite the fact that Russell won all the playoff matches AGAINST Wilt....

It just seems to me that some people use the 'he's got more rings, so he's better' arguement for some players, but completely leave it out for others. I will agree that Kobe has had a better career than Bird, but Bird got McHale and Parish to work with and that was all.. he didn't get upgrade to Pau Gasol halfway through his career, and then to Dwight Howard at the end of it... he worked with other aging stars... Bird... his career was not as impressive as Kobe's, but he's still a better player in my eyes.

Anyways... I don't mean for this to be a Kobe thread.. it's about rings... Kobe is just an example because of a recent thread.

So... how important are rings when ranking a player for you?

So basically you made this incoherent thread to bash on Kobe?

What's new?


#JJHsystem

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:52 AM
he probably lives in new jersey lol hence his logic.

jersey shore would explain a lot.

y not get paid i heard the guy ron artest hit is doing well and they good friends mayeb that can happen with me n lecunt. Id never respect him as a player but maybe he is a good person i dont know him of the court so i wont judge, but as a fan who spends alot of money on the nba i have every right to judge this coward from a basketball standpoint

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-11-2012, 11:00 AM
I'm too lazy to argue, because I do see it's hopeless trying to guide you on the right path.

A lot of contradictions to your logic, but I'll let it be.

MTL_123
10-11-2012, 11:05 AM
alot unless they are cowards like lebron

how is lebron the coward wen melo punched someone and then ran away like a ***** :eyebrow:

MTL_123
10-11-2012, 11:16 AM
HE is a coward blessed with the most talent of any player ever taking ever shortcut possible to win. You got a problem with me saying that great ask em if i care.

considering that u think melo is a bette player then lebon what did melo do. HE DEMANDED a trade so he has a better chance to win a champion. Like a SHORTCUT :speechless:

CubZwin38
10-11-2012, 11:19 AM
The only coward here is you, sitting behind your computer talking **** about players while not even knowing them personally. Try telling that to Lebron in real life, he'll show you what a real coward you are. :pity:

Do you know enough about Lebron to make that statement? Then STFU.

C-Style
10-11-2012, 11:28 AM
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe

NUMBER OF TIMES U SAID HIS NAME OP...

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe

NUMBER OF TIMES U SAID HIS NAME OP...

This is a post I wrote yesterday:


Kobe vs Shaq
Kobe vs Duncan
Kobe vs LeBron
Kobe vs Wade
Kobe vs Durant
Kobe vs Vince
Kobe vs Tmac
Kobe vs AI
Kobe vs MJ
Kobe vs Magic
Kobe vs Bird


These are the threads that have been made for years and years and years and years and years and will continue on being made long long after the Black Mamba retires.


These are always the threads that come up by non-Laker fans, non-Kobe fans, and what is that one constant out of all of this????....


Kobe!


That's how much everyone loves talking about him, good or bad, and that's what makes him so iconic and probably the most talked about athlete out of all the players mentioned above (yes, even moreso than MJ).


Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, LOVES TALKING ABOUT KOBE BEAN BRYANT. Even the haters can't get enough of Kobe Steak.



You're Welcome.

dh144498
10-11-2012, 11:43 AM
Lebronytes really feel threatened by Kobe. They think about Kobe more than they think about Lebron.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 11:53 AM
how is lebron the coward wen melo punched someone and then ran away like a ***** :eyebrow:

oh please these nba players aint haveing no real fight would u rather him keep punchin and lose like 2 years of his career i mean coward for basketball standpoint

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 11:56 AM
considering that u think melo is a bette player then lebon what did melo do. HE DEMANDED a trade so he has a better chance to win a champion. Like a SHORTCUT :speechless:

1)i never once said melo is better then lebron. 2) He didnt go to the easiest place to win he could have gone to nay team in the nba bulls lakers who all had better teams instead he chose to play infront of his other home town bmore doesnt have a team. While lecunt coward turned his back on a team he promised loyalty to and a ring i dont know how dumb some of u are how can u even not admit the man is a basketball coward.

PatsSoxKnicks
10-11-2012, 11:58 AM
Damn the kobephiles are up and about today.

Faabs89
10-11-2012, 12:12 PM
HE is a coward blessed with the most talent of any player ever taking ever shortcut possible to win. You got a problem with me saying that great ask em if i care.

So your entire team is a bunch of "cowards" then? I love Melo but he bailed on the nuggets same with Amare in Pheonix. FIO bud, Lebrons been to 3 finals in 10 years. If he came to NY you'd be all over his tip saying he was the greatest player of all time cause they would have won at least one with him by now.

To stick to the thread. I don't think rings mean everything. Especially in this era of the NBA. With all the super teams it's going to be real hard to really rank players compared to the past players based on rings. On that note, Kobe's a great player but I don't think you can rank him based on rings more than his stats. He's not on MJ Bird Magic level, wouldn't even put him with Shaq, close but never truly consistently dominant like them. However, this is the first season in a while I'm excited for basketball...

JNoel
10-11-2012, 12:27 PM
HE is a coward blessed with the most talent of any player ever taking ever shortcut possible to win. You got a problem with me saying that great ask em if i care.
Your still butthurt over him not joining the Knicks. There is no way you can deny having the best player on your team. If he were on the Knicks, you would be defending him as I am, also he wouldn't be hated as much if the big 3 joined NY over Miami.

Do you know enough about Lebron to make that statement? Then STFU.
You don't need to be a genius to see that Lebron is a beast. 6'8, 250, fast as ****, I think he would kick anyone on this website's *** including me.

ink
10-11-2012, 12:32 PM
I give almost zero weight to rings. I look at how much the player contributed to his team. Period.

So, players like Stockton, Miller, Nash, who were the heart and soul of their teams (and most often their team's MVP year-in year-out) are rated far more highly than a guy like Bynum who has a couple of rings for riding the Lakers bus. And no, I'm not picking on Bynum, he's just an example of a player who has a couple of rings without really leading or investing himself in the team. Some players without rings literally bled for their teams and still didn't win championships. They were also incredible team players, doing everything possible to make those around them better.

I admire the Seattle Sonics Gary Payton a lot more than the Payton who later won a ring in MIA.

IMO valuing a player based on rings is the most superficial measurement you could possibly make, even worse than just counting points scored to value a player.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 12:34 PM
Your still butthurt over him not joining the Knicks. There is no way you can deny having the best player on your team. If he were on the Knicks, you would be defending him as I am, also he wouldn't be hated as much if the big 3 joined NY over Miami.

You don't need to be a genius to see that Lebron is a beast. 6'8, 250, fast as ****, I think he would kick anyone on this website's *** including me.

hard to root for him in fact i caught myself doing something i never though id do root for the celtics all for the demise of a coward watered down ring king. I dont how iam the only1 on here who doesnt think winning a ring that way is legit

ink
10-11-2012, 12:39 PM
hard to root for him in fact i caught myself doing something i never though id do root for the celtics all for the demise of a coward watered down ring king. I dont how iam the only1 on here who doesnt think winning a ring that way is legit

You know, this was a pretty decent thread idea and the first post you made pretty much ruined the thread. Damn shame. Can you let some other people have a decent discussion?

ink
10-11-2012, 12:43 PM
To stick to the thread. I don't think rings mean everything. Especially in this era of the NBA. With all the super teams it's going to be real hard to really rank players compared to the past players based on rings. On that note, Kobe's a great player but I don't think you can rank him based on rings more than his stats. He's not on MJ Bird Magic level, wouldn't even put him with Shaq, close but never truly consistently dominant like them. However, this is the first season in a while I'm excited for basketball...

I agree. If Nash wins a ring with the Lakers there's absolutely no way it is as valuable as a ring he might have won with all those great Suns teams that were developed internally and which he led all those years. I'll find the basketball incredibly exciting, but I'm not judging his success by how many rings he does or doesn't win. He established himself as one of the great PGs in PHX and doesn't need a ring to prove anything else.

The only exception to that is that if Nash succeeds in learning and implementing the Princeton offfence after all these years of PnR, he will have earned more esteem. That's all.

As for the OPs point about luck, I totally agree. Must be nice to land on a team or force your way onto a team that gives you a massive chance at a ring. I actually respect the Stocktons and Ewings of the world a lot more for giving their heart and soul to one team and getting close. Winning the ring is a very foolish measurement of success.

ink
10-11-2012, 12:49 PM
no i will bash the coward every chance i get in the most ruthless way possible

They're meaningless posts and for the sake of the forum I'd ask you to refrain. We can do better here.

They're also off topic since "cowardice" is not the topic of the thread.

Jarvo
10-11-2012, 02:01 PM
To mega stars who have alot of pressure on them to be great it matters, But others not as much.

mngopher35
10-11-2012, 03:14 PM
When I first posted about how rings are only a small part in what i value i didnt read the whole post. I wanna point out to you that every player with a ring has been a little lucky and gotten some help, not just kobe. Kobe has had shaq, a great front court and dwight. Lebron has bosh and wade. Jordan had pippen, rodman, grant, and role players. Magic had kareem, worthy, role players. Bird had mchale, parish, role players. Thats why rings alone dont mean much when evaluating players imo. It takes more than one player to win a ring and some were lucky enough to have that help others werent. Its how well they played and how they performed on the court that matters.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 03:27 PM
IMO valuing a player based on rings is the most superficial measurement you could possibly make, even worse than just counting points scored to value a player.

You dont compare players.

But if your doing so now Iv'e been wanting to ask. Drexler, Pippen, Nique and Worthy. Who comes first and last?

JLynn943
10-11-2012, 03:39 PM
I put very little weight on rings. There are way too many variables that go into a ring than just one player's ability, so it's absurd to think of a championship as the ultimate measuring stick (or even an important one) for rankings. Doing so ignores the team, the coach, the era, the competition, injuries, rules, etc. Championships are a team accomplishment, not a player accomplishment. They deserve very little weight.

ink
10-11-2012, 03:40 PM
You dont compare players.

But if your doing so now Iv'e been wanting to ask. Drexler, Pippen, Nique and Worthy. Who comes first and last?

Don't see why it matters. Seriously, I don't get the interest. :shrug: Why would anyone care? Does it improve anyone's life? Doubtful. They're all some of the finest players to ever play the game. I've enjoyed every one of those names, and all the other names that never won a "ring".

Tell me, does the fact that Malone never won a ring change much about your enjoyment of his play? I can't see how. It didn't change anything about what he actually did on the court, which is the point of the sport, right?


it has everything to do with it since half the people in here are front runner heat fans/lebron fans who are trying to big up lebron legacy of that onion ring that he won. #fakeringking

You're making character judgements and that has nothing to do with the thread. Talk basketball. That's what the forum is for, not for vilifying and slandering.

Besides, arguments based on false assumptions about the character of people you don't even know are the most superficial kind of discussions possible.

JLynn943
10-11-2012, 03:42 PM
edit: never mind, I won't feed the troll

3RDASYSTEM
10-11-2012, 04:11 PM
They carry about as much weight as how the 'water boy' delivers a cup or squirts it down an athletes throat

its too media 'hyped' to mean much for me

im glad players back in the 50' 60's played for self/stats(WILT), it goes to show some thing never change, and where they started from ....egos/selfishness

Like you stated some players get drafted or force they way to contenders like MAGIC/KOBE

others like BRON/JORDAN/SHAQ/AI/STOCKTON/CP3 and others are drafted by lottery/#1 pick squads so they are coming to like 18-21win squads

i said this from day1, rings are pretty worthless when ranking a players 'game'

if so RUSS is hands down bar none the greatest ever because he basically doubles up the 'media' GOAT who only has 6 compared to his 11 in 13yrs, landslide whos the greatest

if SHAQ/WILT/JORDAN/BRON never won a ring, they'd still be in my top 5-7 alltime, jus based off play alone

jerellh528
10-11-2012, 04:23 PM
I think by now we've all found ways to selectively hold things against different players. Rings play into that but its much more complex than simply looking at rings, I think we all agree with that. Except for Kobe stans, who want each rings to level him up the rankings even thought we've already seen his best.

so, wade, lebron, cp3, melo, etc cant rank up because by your logic we have seen all of their best as well.

Hawkize31
10-11-2012, 04:24 PM
Rings do not matter much to me (as an individual accoplishment). They are like wins for MLB pitchers, way too dependent on the cast around you.

Look at a guy like Kevin Love. Phenomenal player, but if he stays in Minnesota, there's a good chance he will never win a championship, especially going against superteams like the Lakers/Heat/Celtics.

Now, there's no doubt being a great player helps you get titles, but to straight up say player X is better than player Y because player X has more rings, thats a bad argument to me. That's like saying Andy Pettite is better than Pedro Martinez because he has more wins (and more rings), just not a good argument.

SteveNash
10-11-2012, 05:15 PM
0

tkshy
10-11-2012, 05:42 PM
Rings are extremely important, but there is an astrekic* to my comment. Rings are important based on a few things. Truth is one ring is ok, but multiple and repeating or threepeating adds to it. Everyone knows how hard it is to win one, but back to back, or back to back to back is even harder. The second part is what role you played. For example, is John Paxson the best PG ever cause he threepeated witht the Bulls...no. Is Roberty Horry the best ever cause he has 6 or 8 rings I think...no. Jordan with one ring pales in comparision to Jordan with 6 and 2 threepeats and 6 finals MVP's.

Even if LBJ wins 6, I would put MJ ahead of him, because he went to a team with 2 other all-stars to chase rings. He went to the finals twice, and lost. Same with Shaq, and Kobe. My Herm Edwards moment...you play to win the games, or this case Championships. So short answer YES rings matter...kind of...lol.

Lake_Show2416
10-11-2012, 06:56 PM
all depends on how much someone contributed on a championship team

Obviously the Gary Payton technique shouldn't b thought of as earning a ring but also if a situation like when the Heat went against the Mavs & would have won the ring after Wade basically carried the team, that would have diminished Lebron's potential 1st ring, luckily is worked out the right way

naps
10-12-2012, 04:14 AM
Here's the thing, a 'Kobephile' didn't start the thread. It's always the likes of naps, hidalgo, JJH, Andrew32 and the rest of these clowns who create these threads and who like to spit on the legacy of KB to raise the esteem and stature of LeBron James or anyone else that rivals him in a given era. (TMAC, Vince, AI, Wade etc.)

When the **** did I create a thread that stirred anything up?? I barely create any thread here. You need to stop being so butthurt just because I don't worship the greatest ballhog in the history of basketball.

thenaj17
10-12-2012, 04:38 AM
Duncan on the other hand, got drafted by a team that featured Robinson and soon picke dup Parker and Ginobili... but since then, well.... the Spurs have drafted well but it's not like they've picked up a player of Gasol stature to put alongside Duncan for another title run,

Most of your argument was fine but then to use this to discredit Kobe is a joke.

Spurs didn't need to get a Gasol to carry on contending because Duncan has had great teammates every single year he has been in the league.

Lakers had to get Gasol to help Kobe because The Lakers were awful at the time. Also, NOBODY rated Gasol higher than Ginobili or Parker before he got to LA. Rightly or wrongly, Gasol was just a mere blip on the NBA radar before Kobe helped elevate his game to All Star recognition. It helps being in LA but media 'experts' should know better no matter what market they are in.

ink
10-12-2012, 05:10 AM
Duncan on the other hand, got drafted by a team that featured Robinson and soon picke dup Parker and Ginobili... but since then, well.... the Spurs have drafted well but it's not like they've picked up a player of Gasol stature to put alongside Duncan for another title run,

Most of your argument was fine but then to use this to discredit Kobe is a joke.

Spurs didn't need to get a Gasol to carry on contending because Duncan has had great teammates every single year he has been in the league.

Lakers had to get Gasol to help Kobe because The Lakers were awful at the time. Also, NOBODY rated Gasol higher than Ginobili or Parker before he got to LA. Rightly or wrongly, Gasol was just a mere blip on the NBA radar before Kobe helped elevate his game to All Star recognition. It helps being in LA but media 'experts' should know better no matter what market they are in.

Funny comment. Just because you didn't know Gasol doesn't mean he was unknown. He was the 2001-02 NBA rookie of the year, on the 2006 All Star team, and already had a very distinguished World Championship and Olympic resume, including World Championship MVP in 2006. He was known as one of the best big men in basketball while he was in Memphis. If you didn't know that you are showing that you follow one team, not the sport.

thenaj17
10-12-2012, 05:47 AM
Funny comment. Just because you didn't know Gasol doesn't mean he was unknown. He was the 2001-02 NBA rookie of the year, on the 2006 All Star team, and already had a very distinguished World Championship and Olympic resume, including World Championship MVP in 2006. He was known as one of the best big men in basketball while he was in Memphis. If you didn't know that you are showing that you follow one team, not the sport.

Emaka Okafor was ROY aswell, doesn't mean a whole lot. I knew who Gasol was and that he was putting up decent numbers with Grizz. He had 1 all star appearance but was not widely regarded as 1 of the best bigs in the league, that's just not true. He was seen as a good european player and star for Spain but nowhere near elite in the NBA.

The argument was made to sound like Gasol was already a superstar and Duncan had mere average players like Ginobili and Parker with him and Kobe was handed titles on a plate because of this and i am merely defending that comment because it was written with such awful bias, i just couldn't let it go.

ink
10-12-2012, 05:55 AM
Emaka Okafor was ROY aswell, doesn't mean a whole lot. I knew who Gasol was and that he was putting up decent numbers with Grizz. He had 1 all star appearance but was not widely regarded as 1 of the best bigs in the league, that's just not true. He was seen as a good european player and star for Spain but nowhere near elite in the NBA.

The argument was made to sound like Gasol was already a superstar and Duncan had mere average players like Ginobili and Parker with him and Kobe was handed titles on a plate because of this and i am merely defending that comment because it was written with such awful bias, i just couldn't let it go.

This is revisionism. Getting Gasol was a coup by the Lakers FO. He was a coveted big man. In fact, in 2006 he was impossible to miss, having come off his FIBA world championship MVP and his All Star appearance. Of course, that was the year before the Lakers snapped him up.

As Kupchak said at the time: "“Pau is a proven player of all-star caliber in this league who can score and rebound and he’s still a young player. We feel this move strengthens our team in the short term as well as the long term.” I don't remember a single person questioning Kupchak's thinking. In fact, I remember other teams protesting because they thought it had to be a dirty deal, it appeared so one-sided in LA's favour. That controversy aside (because Marc ended up being very good), picking up a player of Pau's calibre was a coup. Kobe did not make him elite. He was already elite, playing on a middling team in Memphis.

lilchuckdoubles
10-12-2012, 06:08 AM
leading a franchise to a nba title is very important imo. if a player hasn't done that in their career then their greatness is diminished a little to me. for example If chuck won as many titles as tim or more then chuck would be the g.o.a.t pf to me instead of tim.

thenaj17
10-12-2012, 06:12 AM
This is revisionism. Getting Gasol was a coup by the Lakers FO. He was a coveted big man. In fact, in 2006 he was impossible to miss, having come off his FIBA world championship MVP and his All Star appearance. Of course, that was the year before the Lakers snapped him up.

As Kupchak said at the time: "“Pau is a proven player of all-star caliber in this league who can score and rebound and he’s still a young player. We feel this move strengthens our team in the short term as well as the long term.” I don't remember a single person questioning Kupchak's thinking. In fact, I remember other teams protesting because they thought it had to be a dirty deal, it appeared so one-sided in LA's favour. That controversy aside (because Marc ended up being very good), picking up a player of Pau's calibre was a coup. Kobe did not make him elite. He was already elite, playing on a middling team in Memphis.

Of course Mitch would say that, it's PR. When do you hear someone acquire a player and not praise it greatly? Of course people thought it was a good deal because he was easily the best player of the whole transaction, Lakers gave up a rookie Marc Gasol and Kwame. Nobody said Lakers acquired an elite talent, just that they got a very good player and raped Grizz because of who they gave up.

I'm not arguing Gasol wasn't a very good player but the fact that Parker and Ginobili were rated as good as him at the time. My whole point is around the fact the Duncan wasn't as lucky as Kobe because Kobe got Gasol, which is total BS because he already had 2 all stars there.

basketfan4life
10-12-2012, 06:21 AM
I'm not gonna argue how much weight it holds but to say that it's often about luck is complete BS.

Bill Russel, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Duncan were all very lucky players then. See a pattern here? Guys ?

basketfan4life
10-12-2012, 06:24 AM
Mikan 5 finals in 6 years with the Lakers
Jerry West 9 Finals with the Lakers
Magic 9 finals with the Lakers
Kareem 8 finals with the Lakers
Kobe 7 finals with the Lakers

I think it is pretty obvious that playing with the Lakers means you will be in the finals plenty of times.

I understand what you are trying to say but, it's an odd reasoning to me. They are not going to the finals because of their name is the Lakers. They are going to the finals because of the very same players you listed play on that team. They are all competitive, demanding and great basketball players.

If some other team got these players than they would go the finals too. But it's just my opinion.

BklynKnicks3
10-12-2012, 08:29 AM
melo is easily top 10 all time sf u guys are nuts. He has a chance to be top 5, When i rank players i keep the guys who didnt play in the 80s on a diffrenent list the game is way to advanced now. It like comparing the qbs with leather helmets to Peyton Manning the goat

Knicks21
10-12-2012, 08:55 AM
They have no value, what has value is how the player contributed through the playoffs and finals.

Chronz
10-12-2012, 11:47 AM
I understand what you are trying to say but, it's an odd reasoning to me. They are not going to the finals because of their name is the Lakers. They are going to the finals because of the very same players you listed play on that team. They are all competitive, demanding and great basketball players.

If some other team got these players than they would go the finals too. But it's just my opinion.

Yea I hate that circular logic, thank god no one else but him applies it

Chronz
10-12-2012, 11:49 AM
so, wade, lebron, cp3, melo, etc cant rank up because by your logic we have seen all of their best as well.
Their careers arent coming to a close, they have much more to gain from winning their first or 2nd. With Wade its more about longevity and sustaining his prime than it is about winning, all of these guys are much closer to their prime than Kobe.

Bravo95
10-12-2012, 12:07 PM
A guy like Nowitzki had been killing it for years with no team hardware to show for it. But it took Lebron kinda mentally checking out of their series for Dirk to finally get his due. And almost immediately, people started moving him up their all-time rankings.

ink
10-12-2012, 12:46 PM
Of course Mitch would say that, it's PR. When do you hear someone acquire a player and not praise it greatly? Of course people thought it was a good deal because he was easily the best player of the whole transaction, Lakers gave up a rookie Marc Gasol and Kwame. Nobody said Lakers acquired an elite talent, just that they got a very good player and raped Grizz because of who they gave up.

I'm not arguing Gasol wasn't a very good player but the fact that Parker and Ginobili were rated as good as him at the time. My whole point is around the fact the Duncan wasn't as lucky as Kobe because Kobe got Gasol, which is total BS because he already had 2 all stars there.

From what I read in the OP the point was that certain players are lucky to land on the teams they did. I added that some others force their way onto stacked teams or orchestrate it. Rings mean almost nothing anyway, but in those cases they mean even less. All that matters is what your contribution to the team is. Only a fool would say that Duncan and Kobe don't contribute to their teams. I don't really see the issue.

Seems to me the issue is with people who somehow claim that players without rings like Stockton, Malone, Nash, Miller, Ewing, Baylor, are lesser players. That's absurd. And the whole idea is like a cancer eating at the dignity of the league because now ring-chasing is rampant among the best players.

P Harvy
10-12-2012, 12:56 PM
I'll say this: Kobe has 5 rings right? He arguably could only have 1 finals MVP. Pau Gasol in every way should have won one of the finals MVPs.

Kobe is a great player and will be one of the greatest shooting guards in the history of the game. Is he on the level of Jordan? Absolutely not. He is planets away from Jordan. I see people saying that if Kobe gets one more ring then the discussion opens up for best all time. ABSOLUTELY NOT. I LOL at those notions. The OP does have an extremely valid point. A point that most level headed basketball minds understand. It's the fans that are so lost in their own world. So mad at the fact that the player they think is so GODLY isn't as good as they hype them up to be that they are delusional. They use rings as their only argument because thats all they have.

P Harvy
10-12-2012, 01:01 PM
We'll use Kobe and LeBron because thats the debate everyone loves..

Does Kobe even accomplish half of what LeBron did on the Cavaliers if you swap the two? Absolutely not. Kobe doesn't even make the finals with that team. Kobe probably ends up demanding a trade on that team. Kobe jacks up 30 shots a game on that team. What did LeBron do? He took a team of scrubs to the finals and lost. Oh wow LeBron is so bad because he couldn't carry a bunch of water boys past the best PF of all time and the great supporting cast of Ginobli and Parker.

So yes guys get lucky. Guys get lucky that they play for a franchise that has a competent front office. People bash LeBron for "teaming up" with two all stars?? They are just barely hanging off the edge of a cliff. They are looking for more things to bash a player that they are intimidated from. Intimidated that his career will be better than that of their beloved Kobe.

Chronz
10-12-2012, 01:22 PM
I'm not gonna argue how much weight it holds but to say that it's often about luck is complete BS.

Bill Russel, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Duncan were all very lucky players then. See a pattern here? Guys ?

Whats the pattern?

Chronz
10-12-2012, 01:22 PM
We'll use Kobe and LeBron because thats the debate everyone loves..


No. Try something new

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-12-2012, 01:29 PM
No. Try something new

Well, you know that the OP purposely made this thread to someway somehow talk down on Kobe's legacy, so we might as well use him in every prime example in this thread.

ink
10-12-2012, 01:33 PM
Well, you know that the OP purposely made this thread to someway somehow talk down on Kobe's legacy, so we might as well use him in every prime example in this thread.

I disagree. The thread applies to many more than Kobe. If anything, Kobe fans have to broaden their horizons and stop thinking that everything is about Kobe. lol. Same goes for Lebron fans.

Chronz
10-12-2012, 01:37 PM
I wont touch on that

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-12-2012, 01:41 PM
I disagree. The thread applies to many more than Kobe. If anything, Kobe fans have to broaden their horizons and stop thinking that everything is about Kobe. lol. Same goes for Lebron fans.


My post from 2 days ago proves that guys like JasonJohnHorn love making threads about Kobe. They won't directly come out and say it, but you know that's exactly who they're talking about.

Another prime example is when he made a comparison of which "anonymous" player would you take, laying out the stats for Player A (Bird) and Player B (KObe), he just never directly came out and said "Bird vs Kobe", but the stats showed that exactly who he was talking about.


And he's currently at it with another Kobe vs Duncan thread right now in the NBA Forum.



THis is my post from 2 days ago. Enjoy:



Kobe vs Shaq
Kobe vs Duncan
Kobe vs LeBron
Kobe vs Wade
Kobe vs Durant
Kobe vs Vince
Kobe vs Tmac
Kobe vs AI
Kobe vs MJ
Kobe vs Magic
Kobe vs Bird


These are the threads that have been made for years and years and years and years and years and will continue on being made long long after the Black Mamba retires.


These are always the threads that come up by non-Laker fans, non-Kobe fans, and what is that one constant out of all of this????....


Kobe!


That's how much everyone loves talking about him, good or bad, and that's what makes him so iconic and probably the most talked about athlete out of all the players mentioned above (yes, even moreso than MJ).


Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, LOVES TALKING ABOUT KOBE BEAN BRYANT. Even the haters can't get enough of Kobe Steak.



You're Welcome.

ink
10-12-2012, 01:45 PM
My post from 2 days ago proves that guys like JasonJohnHorn love making threads about Kobe. They won't directly come out and say it, but you know that's exactly who they're talking about.

Another prime example is when he made a comparison of which "anonymous" player would you take, laying out the stats for Player A (Bird) and Player B (KObe), he just never directly came out and said "Bird vs Kobe", but the stats showed that exactly who he was talking about.


And he's currently at it with another Kobe vs Duncan thread right now in the NBA Forum.



THis is my post from 2 days ago. Enjoy:

Please don't derail the thread with this. If you don't like the thread, which has some very good posts in it NOT about Kobe, please don't post in it. Not everything is about Kobe.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-12-2012, 01:45 PM
Please don't derail the thread with this. If you don't like the thread, which has some very good posts in it NOT about Kobe, please don't post in it. Not everything is about Kobe.

I will respect your request ink.

ink
10-12-2012, 01:47 PM
I will respect your request ink.

Thank you. :D

I actually think the thread is about all those great players who are devalued by some because they don't have rings.

PurpleJesus
10-12-2012, 01:57 PM
to me, greatness is a legacy, not necessarily how good of a player you are. I think Lebron is a better player than Kobe (dont accuse me of being youn, 27 years old), but because of all the great things Kobe has accomplished, such as winning all those championships, Kobe has the better legacy, and will be ranked higher on the all time lists than Lebron, if Lebron does not win multiple rings while being one of the primary player on his team.

Stinkyoutsider
10-12-2012, 02:08 PM
Rings mean nothing to me when ranking or comparing players. I only rate them on production and talent. I really can't take away from their quality by putting the moves of management into the conversation.

JiffyMix88
10-12-2012, 02:13 PM
none if were ranking players for a season but it does equal into the equation when talking about greatest ever imo

Da Knicks
10-12-2012, 02:18 PM
The only coward here is you, sitting behind your computer talking **** about players while not even knowing them personally. Try telling that to Lebron in real life, he'll show you what a real coward you are. :pity:

lmao, you showed him!! sitting behind your computer! wait a minute?