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View Full Version : Melo All Time rank as SF



nyk1985
10-10-2012, 03:35 PM
Was wondering where PSD has Melo ranked all time as a SF and player. Does winning a ring in NY boost him up the ranking into top 10 SF ever? Saw the LeBron thread and people had Alex English ranked pretty high, whose career looks very similar to Melo's. If he does end up winning a chanpionship, I see him moving up pretty high around Pierce range, maybe higher depending on his longevity.

Chronz
10-10-2012, 03:50 PM
Top 40 right now

Top 30 when its all said and done

Top 10 with a ring

xxplayerxx23
10-10-2012, 04:01 PM
Really?^

nickdymez
10-10-2012, 04:04 PM
PSD hates melo, so top 10,000

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 04:07 PM
Top 40 right now

Top 30 when its all said and done

Top 10 with a ring

You still saying that if his ring comes Gary Payton style?

xxplayerxx23
10-10-2012, 04:08 PM
I have him top 50 ish right now. If he were to beat the big boys and lets say get a ring this year by the time its over Id say he can be considered top 20ish.

StarvingKnick22
10-10-2012, 04:14 PM
40-50
with a ring top 15

NYYCowboys
10-10-2012, 04:19 PM
It's gonna be funny when BrklynKnicks comes in saying that he's already top 3 of all time.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 04:21 PM
It's gonna be funny when BrklynKnicks comes in saying that he's already top 3 of all time.

and anyone who questions him will immediately have a player from their favorite team thrown under the bus, as if that is relevant to the topic..

xxplayerxx23
10-10-2012, 04:21 PM
:laugh: Id love that but he can't be that stupid.

PleaseBeNice
10-10-2012, 04:21 PM
top 50 right now, top 30 with a ring. hes a inefficient chucker as of now

JordansBulls
10-10-2012, 04:26 PM
You still saying that if his ring comes Gary Payton style?

I think he is talking as a SF only.

Jamiecballer
10-10-2012, 04:27 PM
wait - is that his rank as a SF like the title asks? or just all-time all players?

Chronz
10-10-2012, 04:30 PM
Really?^

I dunno? Took a wild guess I suppose. Whats your list look like?

xxplayerxx23
10-10-2012, 04:32 PM
I dunno? Took a wild guess I suppose. Whats your list look like?

I have him in the 50 range right now. I don't really see him going much past 25ish even with a ring. But if he can win it all going through Boston, Miami, and the Lakers or OKC then my bias will make me reconsider it :p

JNoel
10-10-2012, 04:33 PM
Ehh top 15 when he wins a ring with the Bobcats.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 04:37 PM
I think he is talking as a SF only.

No, I meant if he wins a ring at age 34 while on the back end of his career playing on a team where he is just a role player, does that really propel him higher?

BklynKnicks3
10-10-2012, 04:37 PM
as a player he is already like top 60-70 as a sf its tough because their are alot of guys who are on Melo level cant say clearly one is better then the other. Like dominique/bernard Kid/Gervin/english the top 3 is Bird/lecunt and probably pippen even thoe he won all 6 rings as a number 2 option. If Melo wins a ring or a mvp and goes on to score 25,000 point which iam sure he will he will be 3rd

Daunter
10-10-2012, 04:37 PM
PSD hates melo, so top 10,000.
.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-10-2012, 04:47 PM
Maybe cracks top 200, If he wins a ring tho, definatly top 5. :laugh2:

Chronz
10-10-2012, 04:55 PM
The Untouchables
Bron, Bird, Erving, Baylor, Hondo(?), Pippen, Rick Barry


The LONG WAY to go list:
Pierce, Wilkins, Worthy, Dantley, Carter, King, Dandridge


The comparables but still ahead:
Cunningham, Schayes, English, Mullin, Hill, Mark Aguirre

Thats only 20 SF I can think of that have a case for their careers. Melo aint cracking the Top7, just no way about it but any other player can be had. In all liklihood he finishes just outside the Top 10

These guys are debatable as well, and Im sure there are plenty others.



Debatables:
Shawn Marion, Marques Johnson, Kiki

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-10-2012, 05:01 PM
as a player he is already like top 60-70 as a sf its tough because their are alot of guys who are on Melo level cant say clearly one is better then the other. Like dominique/bernard Kid/Gervin/english the top 3 is Bird/lecunt and probably pippen even thoe he won all 6 rings as a number 2 option. If Melo wins a ring or a mvp and goes on to score 25,000 point which iam sure he will he will be 3rd

LeDaddy*

JasonJohnHorn
10-10-2012, 05:06 PM
I'd say that Melo is likely the greatest SF forward the NY has seen in the last two years. Not one better... in NY. In the last two year.


Seriously...
Lets' see. Guys I would put ahead of him in no particular order
Bird
James
Baylor
Havlicek
Dr. J
Pierce
Durant
Pippen
Dominique Wilkens
Rick Barry


Guys I have him hovering around
Chris Mullen
Alex English
James Worthy
Aguire
Dantley


So yeah... I certainly see him ranking in the top 15... if he continues his regression, he will likely have a hard time keep that ranking... if he continues to score like he did in Denver... he should be able to maintain it... if he wins some rings... he may move into the top ten.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 05:07 PM
#3 after Bird and Lebron.

cp yankeesman
10-10-2012, 05:15 PM
Bumb!!! Lol

QueensG_718
10-10-2012, 05:21 PM
If melo wins a ring hes top 10 sf ever. If he never does but keeps being a heast scoringwise hes definately top 20 alltime. People here kiss durants *** but melo gets no love ajd they are almost the same players. Theyre both prolific acorers with suspect defense at times. So durant is not much if at all better then melo.

QueensG_718
10-10-2012, 05:22 PM
Scorers* beast* and*

abe_froman
10-10-2012, 05:22 PM
probably somewhere just outside the top 10,most of those top 10 slots are already locked to him

Ebbs
10-10-2012, 05:23 PM
Wow I don't think I can name 40 SF's better that's excessive. I would argue like 15-25 range

Tumstock
10-10-2012, 05:24 PM
Why does all Knicks fans look for confirmation? he is top 50.

Evolution23
10-10-2012, 05:24 PM
top 100 with a without a ring. Top 500 with a ring. If he wins a ring it will be because his chucked shots luckily will go in.

QueensG_718
10-10-2012, 05:25 PM
Also i think melo will average in the 20's late into his career. Melos not very athletic so his game is all skill. He wont wear down like athletic players do over time. Thats the beauty of melos game. He will be an impact player throughout his whole career barring injury. Kind of like paul pierce.

abe_froman
10-10-2012, 05:27 PM
If melo wins a ring hes top 10 sf ever. If he never does but keeps being a heast scoringwise hes definately top 20 alltime. People here kiss durants *** but melo gets no love ajd they are almost the same players. Theyre both prolific acorers with suspect defense at times. So durant is not much if at all better then melo.

one is way more efficient than the other and a more/better scorer .i had high hopes for melo coming out of college,and usually defended him when i first signed up here when most posters hated him and would underrate him,but since the trade rumors to ny,nets,chi,ect. came(and the resulting trade to ny),people on here took a 180 and became way too generous to him

Evolution23
10-10-2012, 05:27 PM
Also i think melo will average in the 20's late into his career. Melos not very athletic so his game is all skill. He wont wear down like athletic players do over time. Thats the beauty of melos game. He will be an impact player throughout his whole career barring injury. Kind of like paul pierce.

He is def more a Pierce type player than a Bron.

I Rock Shaqs
10-10-2012, 05:49 PM
Im only 18 but I would say Worthy, Pippen, Lebron, Bird, Durant, Wilkins, Irving are all way ahead of Melo.

JoeDirt05
10-10-2012, 06:23 PM
PSD hates melo, so top 10,000

this

KnickaBocka.44
10-10-2012, 06:56 PM
top 50 right now, top 30 with a ring. hes a inefficient chucker as of now

You know what is hilarious about this? For their career's he averages 1 more shot per game than Durant, shoots 1 percentage point less, averages 1.6 less ppg, over a longer career, and that makes him an "inefficient chucker" in the eyes of some, but Durant is the second coming.

It just baffles me :eyebrow:

BklynKnicks3
10-10-2012, 07:00 PM
i dont think its even fair to compare guys from before the 80s to guys like melo his game is way to advanced for that if hondo played today he wouldnt avg 10 lets be serious, only guys from abck then that would be superstars today are wilt n kareem. Melo is much better then pierce what was pierce before kg rondo ray allen.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 07:07 PM
i dont think its even fair to compare guys from before the 80s to guys like melo his game is way to advanced for that if hondo played today he wouldnt avg 10 lets be serious, only guys from abck then that would be superstars today are wilt n kareem. Melo is much better then pierce what was pierce before kg rondo ray allen.

None of this is true. How old are you?

xxplayerxx23
10-10-2012, 07:15 PM
Prime Pierce is better then Prime Melo

KnickaBocka.44
10-10-2012, 07:23 PM
Prime Pierce is better then Prime Melo

Isn't Melo still in his prime?

xxplayerxx23
10-10-2012, 07:24 PM
Isn't Melo still in his prime?

I guess that's true, but Pierce in his prime is better then Melo as of right now. Hopefully Melo shows me he is better this year :)

knicks=love
10-10-2012, 07:26 PM
The Untouchables
Bron, Bird, Erving, Baylor, Hondo(?), Pippen, Rick Barry


The LONG WAY to go list:
Pierce, Wilkins, Worthy, Dantley, Carter, King, Dandridge


The comparables but still ahead:
Cunningham, Schayes, English, Mullin, Hill, Mark Aguirre

Thats only 20 SF I can think of that have a case for their careers. Melo aint cracking the Top7, just no way about it but any other player can be had. In all liklihood he finishes just outside the Top 10

These guys are debatable as well, and Im sure there are plenty others.



Debatables:
Shawn Marion, Marques Johnson, Kiki

:clap: i agree with all of this


Why does all Knicks fans look for confirmation? he is top 50.

...this is one of the reasons why i try to stay out of the knicks forum, but it's like looking at a train wreck; you just can't help but look.


top 100 with a without a ring. Top 500 with a ring. If he wins a ring it will be because his chucked shots luckily will go in.

so he's top 100 without a ring, and top 500 when he wins one? how does he get worse when he wins it?


i dont think its even fair to compare guys from before the 80s to guys like melo his game is way to advanced for that if hondo played today he wouldnt avg 10 lets be serious, only guys from abck then that would be superstars today are wilt n kareem. Melo is much better then pierce what was pierce before kg rondo ray allen.

:facepalm:

Swashcuff
10-10-2012, 07:28 PM
What's up with this if he wins a ring BULL****. Let's be real the Knicks aren't legit title contenders until at least a couple seasons or Amar'e becoming the force he was in Phoenix again and that's a long shot. Right now the Heat, Thunder and Lakers (Celtics as well) are just so much better than the others teams need to step into their league if they are going to win anytime soon.

Let's throw this whole if he wins a title rubbish out the window if we're not going to apply any context to it.

So I'll go with this in no real order

Bird, Baylor, LeBron, Pippen, Barry, Hondo, Pierce, Nique, Dr J, Worthy, English, Gervin/T-Mac (if you rank them as SFs), Marquis Johnson, Mark Aguirre, Paul Arizin, Bernard King, Vandeweghe, Grant Hill, Cunningham, Bobby Jones (G.O.A.T. calibre defensive SF), Dantley, Dandridge, Marion and Chris Mullin are better or are around about where Carmelo is as of right now.

Honestly I'll say as of right now Melo is about top 18-25 maybe argued as high as 15. Depending on how he wins his ring (if he does) we'll know how many places he jumps in the ranks. I mean seriously if Melo wins a ring in the twilight of his career or lays an egg in the Finals how can he leap frog into the top 10 or so? Let's apply some context to our arguments gents.

BklynKnicks3
10-10-2012, 07:35 PM
none of this is true. How old are you?

32

BklynKnicks3
10-10-2012, 07:36 PM
I guess that's true, but Pierce in his prime is better then Melo as of right now. Hopefully Melo shows me he is better this year :)

how in the world is peirce prime better he wasnt a winner until kg rondo pierce

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 07:38 PM
how in the world is peirce prime better he wasnt a winner until kg rondo pierce

uh, yes he was. And when the hell has Melo ever been a winner? Despite good talent around him since day 1, he hasn't won ****. Pierce's scoring actually helped his team, unlike what Melo has done normally. Furthermore, Pierce was a plus defender, something Melo seems allergic to on a consistent basis.

Swashcuff
10-10-2012, 07:56 PM
how in the world is peirce prime better he wasnt a winner until kg rondo pierce

When has Melo been a winner again?

beasted86
10-10-2012, 09:12 PM
People forget how loaded the SF spot is with scorers just like Melo. Larry, Erving, Wilkins, Baylor, Barry, Gervin, Hondo, English, King etc, etc...

Then there's the guys who will have a strong case because they were still very good players and have a high ring count. Pippen, Worthy, etc..

Don't see Melo finishing top 10 in his career even with a ring.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 08:37 AM
When has Melo been a winner again?

he was the west finals run but thats not my point he always lead his team to the playoffs no matter the talent who clueless are u people he got drafted by a 17 win team him plus andre miller= 42 wins as a 19 year old. While people made excuses for durant at 19 winning 17 games. pierce after walker was gone was leading team into the lottery and his defense was never even mentioned then when Kg got their who plays the best help defense in the league was shadowing every step behind peirce who defended kobe made him look good u people got alot to learn. The again some of u think kevin love is better then Melo thatt has to be the biggest joke basketball wise.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 08:40 AM
look at this great roster and dont give me nene and camby they where their year before and won 17 games and did nothing that was all melo with soem credit to andre miller. Good talent my as$ he had alot of avg players around just like love has one guy had killer instinct since birth one guy is 2nd coming of david lee and zach randolph except zach showed he could be important to a team that wins. Melo had 1 star his whole career iverson and thta was for 1 full season. Then billups got their who is solid but not a star they had a nice run and he got old the following year he got torched by deron williams while melo avg 31 ppg on 50% in the playoffs

Da Knicks
10-11-2012, 09:49 AM
I'd say that Melo is likely the greatest SF forward the NY has seen in the last two years. Not one better... in NY. In the last two year.


Seriously...
Lets' see. Guys I would put ahead of him in no particular order
Bird
James
Baylor
Havlicek
Dr. J
Pierce
Durant
Pippen
Dominique Wilkens
Rick Barry


Guys I have him hovering around
Chris Mullen
Alex English
James Worthy
Aguire
Dantley


So yeah... I certainly see him ranking in the top 15... if he continues his regression, he will likely have a hard time keep that ranking... if he continues to score like he did in Denver... he should be able to maintain it... if he wins some rings... he may move into the top ten.

I can agree with this, you made the most sense out of anyone who posted..

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:18 AM
lol if melo played doctor j rick barry n hando 1 on 1 he would win 100 to 0

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 10:24 AM
uh, yes he was. And when the hell has Melo ever been a winner? Despite good talent around him since day 1, he hasn't won ****. Pierce's scoring actually helped his team, unlike what Melo has done normally. Furthermore, Pierce was a plus defender, something Melo seems allergic to on a consistent basis.

Pierce was no more of a winner than Melo was/is before the big 3 was assembled. He made the ECF in one of the weakest conference in history. I mean seriously the Eastern conference during the early-mid 00's was an absolute joke until the Pistons came to town. Melo made the WCF in one of the most stacked in history.

There is no way in hell you can prove 'Pierce's scoring actually helped his team'.....I mean honestly what kind of argument is that? How did Melo's scoring not help the Nuggets when they were winning 50+ games a year with him a the forefront?

Pierce only became a 'plus defender' when his team became stacked defensively and he had one of the best defensive forwards in NBA history next to him.

And Melo's D is nowhere near as bad as you guys say it is. Sure, the effort is not there 100% 48 minutes for 82 games, but at worst hes average.

This is all coming from a guy who openly criticizes the **** out of Melo in the Knicks forum, check the threads for yourself. But the stuff you wrote above is coming directly out your ***.

BTW, I rank Pierce above Melo, just felt your argument was trash.

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 10:25 AM
lol if melo played doctor j rick barry n hando 1 on 1 he would win 100 to 0

But if you threw Melo on loaded team where he needed to defer at times and play a team concept would he dominate while the team had success like those guys were able to do?

The problem is Melo plays 5 on 5 basketball like its a 1 on 1 game.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:32 AM
But if you threw Melo on loaded team where he needed to defer at times and play a team concept would he dominate while the team had success like those guys were able to do?

The problem is Melo plays 5 on 5 basketball like its a 1 on 1 game.

just look at what he did this summer for team usa to answer ur question

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 10:39 AM
just look at what he did this summer for team usa to answer ur question

I don't consider Olympic basketball relevant to NBA discussion. I do hope he can translate that success playing a 'role', picking his spots and playing off the ball to the NBA game though.

DoMeFavors
10-11-2012, 10:43 AM
Hmm he is up there with the likes of Shawn Marion, Ron Artest, Grant Hill in all time history of the NBA.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:43 AM
I don't consider Olympic basketball relevant to NBA discussion. I do hope he can translate that success playing a 'role', picking his spots and playing off the ball to the NBA game though.

he did it in denver plenty as well just lost to alot of better teams in the playoffs people over look that. U replace melo with any other player in nba even micheal jordan u are not beating spurs or lakers prime teams with denver roster

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 10:49 AM
he was the west finals run but thats not my point he always lead his team to the playoffs no matter the talent who clueless are u people he got drafted by a 17 win team him plus andre miller= 42 wins as a 19 year old. While people made excuses for durant at 19 winning 17 games. pierce after walker was gone was leading team into the lottery and his defense was never even mentioned then when Kg got their who plays the best help defense in the league was shadowing every step behind peirce who defended kobe made him look good u people got alot to learn. The again some of u think kevin love is better then Melo thatt has to be the biggest joke basketball wise.

Cool story. That's for reiterating that Melo has never been a winner either. You would have been better off just saying college.

DoMeFavors
10-11-2012, 10:53 AM
look at this great roster and dont give me nene and camby they where their year before and won 17 games and did nothing that was all melo with soem credit to andre miller. Good talent my as$ he had alot of avg players around just like love has one guy had killer instinct since birth one guy is 2nd coming of david lee and zach randolph except zach showed he could be important to a team that wins. Melo had 1 star his whole career iverson and thta was for 1 full season. Then billups got their who is solid but not a star they had a nice run and he got old the following year he got torched by deron williams while melo avg 31 ppg on 50% in the playoffs

Camby and Nene were role players, you cant expect them to win by themselves, you add good role players with a good pg and a young player that was very good and you get a playoff team.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:54 AM
Cool story. That's for reiterating that Melo has never been a winner either. You would have been better off just saying college.

diffrenc ebetween a winner and a champion melo has been a winner his whole career won more then lost just never been a champion kevin love is very consistent losssssser the whole time.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 10:56 AM
Camby and Nene were role players, you cant expect them to win by themselves, you add good role players with a good pg and a young player that was very good and you get a playoff team.

dont think i forgot how u where crying for melo to come to the nets then day after he became a knick dwill is better and how u made bets with knick fans that u will delete ur account if melo goes to the knicks what happend to that???

DoMeFavors
10-11-2012, 10:59 AM
dont think i forgot how u where crying for melo to come to the nets then day after he became a knick dwill is better and how u made bets with knick fans that u will delete ur account if melo goes to the knicks what happend to that???

Your memory is a little off, I said I would do a sig bet which I agreed to and then did. And why wouldnt I want Carmelo? He was better than Travis Outlaw back then who was the Nets SF.

BigBlueCrew
10-11-2012, 11:05 AM
Your memory is a little off, I said I would do a sig bet which I agreed to and then did. And why wouldnt I want Carmelo? He was better than Travis Outlaw back then who was the Nets SF.

Oh I remember you little punk.

Melo to the Nets!! Melo to the Nets!!

I eventually removed for the Eli sig I have now. Because unlike you I dont obsess about the other team. Haha.

Bellz
10-11-2012, 11:10 AM
Your memory is a little off, I said I would do a sig bet which I agreed to and then did. And why wouldnt I want Carmelo? He was better than Travis Outlaw back then who was the Nets SF.

NO you didn't actually....You wore the sig for a week and took it down the bet was a WHOLE YEAR.... So no and you still keep trolling about the knicks.

DoMeFavors
10-11-2012, 11:12 AM
NO you didn't actually....You wore the sig for a week and took it down the bet was a WHOLE YEAR.... So no and you still keep trolling about the knicks.

The people on this website....

Everytime someone talks about another team in a negative way its "trolling" when in reality most of the time its the truth. I never "troll" about the Knicks, I state opinions on them just like EVERY other team in the league.

DoMeFavors
10-11-2012, 11:13 AM
Oh I remember you little punk.

Melo to the Nets!! Melo to the Nets!!

I eventually removed for the Eli sig I have now. Because unlike you I dont obsess about the other team. Haha.

I stinks I deserve more credit than Eli, David Tyree deserves more credit than Eli.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-11-2012, 11:15 AM
..wow you guys are arguing over an online bet..

think about that.

BigBlueCrew
10-11-2012, 11:18 AM
I stinks I deserve more credit than Eli, David Tyree deserves more credit than Eli.

are you giving your opinion your Eli now? hahahaha

do you hear that? no? cuz that's the sound of everyone who cares

Da Knicks
10-11-2012, 11:23 AM
Cool story. That's for reiterating that Melo has never been a winner either. You would have been better off just saying college.

He did say how the nuggets improved into a playoff team his rookie year, something not the great James or Durant did. His teams have being overrated big time and the knicks teams he has being on have being hurt. The first year in New York it was a trade that sent half the team to denver and then when they started clicking Billups and Stat get hurt in the playoffs. The following year was supposed to be the year to get training camp in and click with the guys but no training camp because of a lockout. In the playoffs Lin was hurt and Baron was not healthy the whole season and ends up getting hurt himself badly. Iman Shumpert gets hurt and Chandler starts the series with the flu when he should of just sat out the first two games. Bibby and Douglas as your pgs is trouble, Jeffries who would of helped a whole lot had a bum knee in the playoffs and then Stat messes up his hand.

All of this happens and the knicks are still able to win a game against the heat when teams struggled to win with Bosh out. Carmelo as always got the blame but this year if he doesnt make to atleast the conference finals he should get all the backlash.

DoMeFavors
10-11-2012, 11:25 AM
He did say how the nuggets improved into a playoff team his rookie year, something not the great James or Durant did. His teams have being overrated big time and the knicks teams he has being on have being hurt. The first year in New York it was a trade that sent half the team to denver and then when they started clicking Billups and Stat get hurt in the playoffs. The following year was supposed to be the year to get training camp in and click with the guys but no training camp because of a lockout. In the playoffs Lin was hurt and Baron was not healthy the whole season and ends up getting hurt himself badly. Iman Shumpert gets hurt and Chandler starts the series with the flu when he should of just sat out the first two games. Bibby and Douglas as your pgs is trouble, Jeffries who would of helped a whole lot had a bum knee in the playoffs and then Stat messes up his hand.

All of this happens and the knicks are still able to win a game against the heat when teams struggled to win with Bosh out. Carmelo as always got the blame but this year if he doesnt make to atleast the conference finals he should get all the backlash.

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses every team in the NBA has injuries. Knicks dont get a slide because of them. Fact is Melo with the Knicks have = failiure.

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 11:30 AM
He did say how the nuggets improved into a playoff team his rookie year, something not the great James or Durant did. His teams have being overrated big time and the knicks teams he has being on have being hurt. The first year in New York it was a trade that sent half the team to denver and then when they started clicking Billups and Stat get hurt in the playoffs. The following year was supposed to be the year to get training camp in and click with the guys but no training camp because of a lockout. In the playoffs Lin was hurt and Baron was not healthy the whole season and ends up getting hurt himself badly. Iman Shumpert gets hurt and Chandler starts the series with the flu when he should of just sat out the first two games. Bibby and Douglas as your pgs is trouble, Jeffries who would of helped a whole lot had a bum knee in the playoffs and then Stat messes up his hand.

All of this happens and the knicks are still able to win a game against the heat when teams struggled to win with Bosh out. Carmelo as always got the blame but this year if he doesnt make to atleast the conference finals he should get all the backlash.

Okay dude lets switch things up a bit and place Melo on LeBron's or KDs teams do they make the post season?

Let's not act like teammates don't have anything to do with it. I understand your POV but why can you make excuses for Melo but then say how James and KD never made the post season as rookies? When you make the post season as a rookie in more cases than not its because you were fortunate enough to be drafted into an organization with a solid structure in place and were a piece or two away from being playoff contenders.

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Excuses, Excuses, Excuses every team in the NBA has injuries. Knicks dont get a slide because of them. Fact is Melo with the Knicks have = failiure.

You = failure every day on this forum.

Every team does have injuries, that much is true. But people have to acknowledge that the Knicks have had extremely bad luck as far as the timing of the injuries and the key players that have suffered them. Last year alone it was Lin, Shumpert, Amare, Chandler getting the flu, Baron, and Jeffries. Even with Chandler playing, that is 5/15 players on a roster that could possibly play, and not even the 10 that suited up were 100%

Dankster
10-11-2012, 11:37 AM
His playoff record and efficiency are definitely what's hurting him the most. But he's just entering his prime now and has plenty of time to right the ship. It's not like the guy wasn't a great player already; he has plenty of time to escalate in the ranks.

Statistically he should go down as one of the ATG's if he continues on this pace for another 5-6 years- the guy could eclipse 25,000 PTS which will look nice on paper, but he has to start to accrue some playoff success to really vault him up into the top 10 SF's of all time after all is said and done.

If he can get at least one ring in NY ( which obviously is a very TALL order,) and continues posting up big time numbers for at least another 5-6 years, I'll have no problem slating him as one of the top 30 players of all time. Many "if's" in that statement however, so we'll just wait and see I guess.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 11:46 AM
look at this great roster and dont give me nene and camby they where their year before and won 17 games and did nothing
False, Camby suffered through an injury plagued year and Nene was a rookie playing with bums. Jesus man if you cant get this simple fact straight then I cant imagine how much BS you spew for Melo. Something tells me this wont be the last time you lie.



that was all melo with soem credit to andre miller.
lmfao. Nah Melo was like the 3rd or 4th best player on that team.



Good talent my as$ he had alot of avg players around just like love has one guy had killer instinct since birth one guy is 2nd coming of david lee and zach randolph except zach showed he could be important to a team that wins.
Prove it.


Melo had 1 star his whole career iverson and thta was for 1 full season. Then billups got their who is solid but not a star they had a nice run and he got old the following year he got torched by deron williams while melo avg 31 ppg on 50% in the playoffs
Billups was better/more productive than Iverson, so if AI at that point was a star then Billups has to qualify, unless your ranking stars by name value, in which case I dont care but wouldn't suprise me considering your argument.


LOL at trying to overrate Melo, he actually shot 46%, which was pretty impressive by his standards, still its pretty sad that they lost to such an injury plagued team.

Da Knicks
10-11-2012, 11:59 AM
Okay dude lets switch things up a bit and place Melo on LeBron's or KDs teams do they make the post season?

Let's not act like teammates don't have anything to do with it. I understand your POV but why can you make excuses for Melo but then say how James and KD never made the post season as rookies? When you make the post season as a rookie in more cases than not its because you were fortunate enough to be drafted into an organization with a solid structure in place and were a piece or two away from being playoff contenders.

You want to place Melo on Okc fine, I would say they address the main weakness on that team which was shown to the whole world which is no inside scoring. Melo would post up in the middle and let Harden and Westbrook control the perimeter. Lebron was not even scoring for his team when he posted up, he passed to Battier who imo had a chance at the mvp for the finals trophy for his clutch 3 point shooting, Chalmers, Miller all of them killed it from three. Melo replacing Bron would of being a bigger nightmare for okc imo, they dont have the guys to guard physical sf. Melo had his best run this past season at pf so i think the heat would just be better on offense. On defense he has the tools to do it but he needs to do it for the whole season, that is what seperates Melo and Bron.

Offensively right now in the nba nobody can really match Melo on skill besides Kobe and he is older and not as strong. This will be the season to really measure what he is about imo. I think many of you will be shocked when the season starts and this knick team comes out strong because of the play of Melo. Finally a training camp, good pgs, good coach from the get go, teamates who can knock down an open shot.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 12:02 PM
Pierce was no more of a winner than Melo was/is before the big 3 was assembled. He made the ECF in one of the weakest conference in history. I mean seriously the Eastern conference during the early-mid 00's was an absolute joke until the Pistons came to town. Melo made the WCF in one of the most stacked in history.
The West was more competitive but it wasnt stacked, not even close to being the most stacked in history. Statistically the 2 best teams outside the Lakers were the Rockets and Blazers, they met in R.1. Yao didn't even last past R.1, Tmac was out, Manu was out which means the Spurs weren't a threat. The Mavs were weak, they had the efficiency scores a 47 win team. The Hornets were CLEARLY inferior to the Nuggets. The Jazz were first round fodder for the Lakers.

Pierce played in an easier conference but he had far less talent alongside him and played in a tougher defensive era.



There is no way in hell you can prove 'Pierce's scoring actually helped his team'.....I mean honestly what kind of argument is that?
Well we do have YEARS of evidence and trends that suggest Melo's scoring isnt all that valuable, comparably speaking vs other stars of course. But Im sure you will just write them off despite the fact that they are objective measures.


How did Melo's scoring not help the Nuggets when they were winning 50+ games a year with him a the forefront?
What makes you think he was at the forefront and what kind of logic is this? Are you saying that Melo's scoring value is getting worse with his team losing more each year?



Pierce only became a 'plus defender' when his team became stacked defensively and he had one of the best defensive forwards in NBA history next to him.
False, he was a far better defender in his youth and definitely a plus guy on that end. The Celtics were posting strong defensive marks long before KG showed up. Obviously switching out Antoine Walker with KG will lead to a far more epic defense, but Pierce was playing D at a higher level than Melo, that much is sure. Both the eye and the stat test agree.


And Melo's D is nowhere near as bad as you guys say it is. Sure, the effort is not there 100% 48 minutes for 82 games, but at worst hes average.
Maybe now, but throughout his career it was pitiful. He only had 1 year where his team was significantly better defensively with him on the court, that just so happened to be one Denver's best years and without a doubt his best in terms of team success, that defensive effort took some air out of his offensive stats tho, so I question his 2-way ability. I dont have those same fears for Pierce. Superior defender and playmaker.

Heatcheck
10-11-2012, 12:03 PM
If melo wins a ring hes top 10 sf ever. If he never does but keeps being a heast scoringwise hes definately top 20 alltime. People here kiss durants *** but melo gets no love ajd they are almost the same players. Theyre both prolific acorers with suspect defense at times. So durant is not much if at all better then melo.

Durant is much better than melo. is more efficient, plays better d, plays better team ball, better passer, and more scoring championships (which is all melo is good at)

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 12:09 PM
You want to place Melo on Okc fine, I would say they address the main weakness on that team which was shown to the whole world which is no inside scoring. Melo would post up in the middle and let Harden and Westbrook control the perimeter.

You do realize that KD scored more and at a better % than Melo from the post last season right?

Also what I was speaking of was their rookie seasons what you alluded to not their current season.


Lebron was not even scoring for his team when he posted up, he passed to Battier who imo had a chance at the mvp for the finals trophy for his clutch 3 point shooting, Chalmers, Miller all of them killed it from three.

Well clearly you didn't watch enough Heat games. LeBron also scored more and at a greater rate from the post.


Melo replacing Bron would of being a bigger nightmare for okc imo, they dont have the guys to guard physical sf. Melo had his best run this past season at pf so i think the heat would just be better on offense. On defense he has the tools to do it but he needs to do it for the whole season, that is what seperates Melo and Bron.

There are literally a million more things that separate LeBron from Melo. Melo at his best is a top 5 player in the league IMO and even then he isn't on LeBron's tier.


Offensively right now in the nba nobody can really match Melo on skill besides Kobe and he is older and not as strong.

Who gives a **** about skill if the player doesn't produce. Skill only takes you so far.


This will be the season to really measure what he is about imo.

I heard that from you last year.


I think many of you will be shocked when the season starts and this knick team comes out strong because of the play of Melo. Finally a training camp, good pgs, good coach from the get go, teamates who can knock down an open shot.

Again all of this you told me last year. Was your predictions a year early.

Now stop straying from the point. I don't give a **** about Melo next season or comparing him to Bron or KD they are already better than Melo ever was. The discusssion was based on WINNING and not making the post season as a rookie. Simply answer the question. You place Carmelo Anthony on LeBron's Cavs of 2003-2004 or KD's Supersonics of 2007-2008 and remove LeBron and KD do the Cavs and/or Sonics make the post season?

Heatcheck
10-11-2012, 12:12 PM
You want to place Melo on Okc fine, I would say they address the main weakness on that team which was shown to the whole world which is no inside scoring. Melo would post up in the middle and let Harden and Westbrook control the perimeter. Lebron was not even scoring for his team when he posted up, he passed to Battier who imo had a chance at the mvp for the finals trophy for his clutch 3 point shooting, Chalmers, Miller all of them killed it from three. Melo replacing Bron would of being a bigger nightmare for okc imo, they dont have the guys to guard physical sf. Melo had his best run this past season at pf so i think the heat would just be better on offense. On defense he has the tools to do it but he needs to do it for the whole season, that is what seperates Melo and Bron.

Offensively right now in the nba nobody can really match Melo on skill besides Kobe and he is older and not as strong. This will be the season to really measure what he is about imo. I think many of you will be shocked when the season starts and this knick team comes out strong because of the play of Melo. Finally a training camp, good pgs, good coach from the get go, teamates who can knock down an open shot.



elaborate. what "skill" is that? having a nice shooting touch at 6'9"? cuz thats the only elite thing melo can do, and his shot selection negates that. dribbling? its probably not rebounding becuase he doesnt exactly clean the boards. what are these skills? game management? leadership? cant be any of those. i KNOW its not passing. and its probably not finishing at the rim, because plenty of players are better finishers.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 12:36 PM
False, Camby suffered through an injury plagued year and Nene was a rookie playing with bums. Jesus man if you cant get this simple fact straight then I cant imagine how much BS you spew for Melo. Something tells me this wont be the last time you lie.



lmfao. Nah Melo was like the 3rd or 4th best player on that team.



Prove it.


Billups was better/more productive than Iverson, so if AI at that point was a star then Billups has to qualify, unless your ranking stars by name value, in which case I dont care but wouldn't suprise me considering your argument.


LOL at trying to overrate Melo, he actually shot 46%, which was pretty impressive by his standards, still its pretty sad that they lost to such an injury plagued team.

3rd or 4th best player on team lmao u are a clown melo wasnt even 4th best player when he played for team usa.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 12:37 PM
elaborate. what "skill" is that? having a nice shooting touch at 6'9"? cuz thats the only elite thing melo can do, and his shot selection negates that. dribbling? its probably not rebounding becuase he doesnt exactly clean the boards. what are these skills? game management? leadership? cant be any of those. i KNOW its not passing. and its probably not finishing at the rim, because plenty of players are better finishers.

wrong melo lead all nba sfs in rebounds in 2010 even more then your miami coward

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 12:40 PM
You do realize that KD scored more and at a better % than Melo from the post last season right?

Also what I was speaking of was their rookie seasons what you alluded to not their current season.



Well clearly you didn't watch enough Heat games. LeBron also scored more and at a greater rate from the post.



There are literally a million more things that separate LeBron from Melo. Melo at his best is a top 5 player in the league IMO and even then he isn't on LeBron's tier.



Who gives a **** about skill if the player doesn't produce. Skill only takes you so far.



I heard that from you last year.



Again all of this you told me last year. Was your predictions a year early.

Now stop straying from the point. I don't give a **** about Melo next season or comparing him to Bron or KD they are already better than Melo ever was. The discusssion was based on WINNING and not making the post season as a rookie. Simply answer the question. You place Carmelo Anthony on LeBron's Cavs of 2003-2004 or KD's Supersonics of 2007-2008 and remove LeBron and KD do the Cavs and/or Sonics make the post season?

you give Melo any nba he will be in the playoffs even the bobcats if not playoffs then it will being out by a game or 2. Lebron go lucky being in the east that was horrible if melo got drafted by the pistons hed have like 3 rings already.

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 12:42 PM
you give Melo any nba he will be in the playoffs even the bobcats if not playoffs then it will being out by a game or 2. Lebron go lucky being in the east that was horrible if melo got drafted by the pistons hed have like 3 rings already.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 12:45 PM
LeBron got lucky? What kind of BULL**** is that. LeBron was the best talent coming into the draft in over two decades how did he get lucky? Dude worked his *** off his entire career to become the player he was and drafted AHEAD of Melo for great reason this child is saying that he's lucky... :laugh2:

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 12:48 PM
LeBron got lucky? What kind of BULL**** is that. LeBron was the best talent coming into the draft in over two decades how did he get lucky? Dude worked his *** off his entire career to become the player he was and drafted AHEAD of Melo for great reason this child is saying that he's lucky... :laugh2:

i say he is lucky to be drafted in the east its a fact. he played wizard twice in the first round. One time without jamison hughes or arenas get ur facts together boy boy then come talk to a expert. #cowardkiller

Heatcheck
10-11-2012, 12:50 PM
wrong melo lead all nba sfs in rebounds in 2010 even more then your miami coward
how is 6.3rebs more than 7.9rebs?

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 12:52 PM
False, Camby suffered through an injury plagued year and Nene was a rookie playing with bums. Jesus man if you cant get this simple fact straight then I cant imagine how much BS you spew for Melo. Something tells me this wont be the last time you lie.



lmfao. Nah Melo was like the 3rd or 4th best player on that team.



Prove it.


Billups was better/more productive than Iverson, so if AI at that point was a star then Billups has to qualify, unless your ranking stars by name value, in which case I dont care but wouldn't suprise me considering your argument.


LOL at trying to overrate Melo, he actually shot 46%, which was pretty impressive by his standards, still its pretty sad that they lost to such an injury plagued team.

Listen, I am not someone who is going to stick his neck out for Melo too much, I think he gets some unfair criticism but for the most part the arguments against him hold some weight. But the part in bold is just flat out not true and you know it Chronz, he definitely was the best player on that team as a rookie.

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 12:53 PM
i say he is lucky to be drafted in the east its a fact. he played wizard twice in the first round. One time without jamison hughes or arenas get ur facts together boy boy then come talk to a expert. #cowardkiller

Do you have a brain? He was drafted in the east because he was one of the greatest players to ever enter the NBA draft. Maybe if Melo was better he would have such "luck" but truth be told LeBron is was and will always be flat out better.

Place LeBron on Melo's Nuggets and they probably would have won a title or two. Melo got to the WCF once.

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 12:57 PM
Durant is much better than melo. is more efficient, plays better d, plays better team ball, better passer, and more scoring championships (which is all melo is good at)

Durant averages less assists than Melo for his career so I'm not sure what you are basing your arguments of "better passer and better team player" off of and he only shoots 1% point higher for his career so your notion that he is more efficient doesn;t hold much weight either. He might play better D, but lets be honest, he is aided by the fact that he is 6' 10'' with an insane wingspan.

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 01:02 PM
Durant averages less assists than Melo for his career so I'm not sure what you are basing your arguments of "better passer and better team player" off of and he only shoots 1% point higher for his career so your notion that he is more efficient doesn;t hold much weight either. He might play better D, but lets be honest, he is aided by the fact that he is 6' 10'' with an insane wingspan.

All that and Durant's prime has really just begun. Imagine how much better he'll be when he peaks. Melo is aided by being bigger and stronger and hell a better athlete than damn near every SF he's going up against so what's the point?

I'd say he was right on everything outside of the passing and rebounding (where they are basically equals). Make no mistakes about it however Durant is a better volume scorer, shooter and efficiency offensive player than Melo.

Heatcheck
10-11-2012, 01:05 PM
wrong melo lead all nba sfs in rebounds in 2010 even more then your miami coward


how is 6.3rebs more than 7.9rebs?


JESUS CHRIST...i just realized your talking about his rebounding 2YEARS AGO, where he got a whopping .3 reb more than lebron, who isnt known for his rebounding anyway. is this a joke?

I ask what it is he does so elite, to say he is the most skilled offensive player in the game, and you tell me 2 years ago, he got less than half a rebound more than lebron a game, as a rebuttal? you serious?

nickdymez
10-11-2012, 01:07 PM
I have'nt read throught the whole thread, have we started talking about Kobe and Lebron yet?

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 01:07 PM
All that and Durant's prime has really just begun. Imagine how much better he'll be when he peaks. Melo is aided by being bigger and stronger and hell a better athlete than damn near every SF he's going up against so what's the point?

I'd say he was right on everything outside of the passing and rebounding (where they are basically equals). Make no mistakes about it however Durant is a better volume scorer, shooter and efficiency offensive player than Melo.

Shooter, yes. But efficiency wise and volume wise you are talking about the difference of 1.6 ppg over their careers and a difference of 3-4% in TS% and eFG%. Also, how can one argue he is a better defender, when there is a 1 poitn difference in their career d-ratings, and team player?

My point is that the gap between Durant and Melo is not as big as most like to think.

TheIlladelph16
10-11-2012, 01:09 PM
Durant averages less assists than Melo for his career so I'm not sure what you are basing your arguments of "better passer and better team player" off of and he only shoots 1% point higher for his career so your notion that he is more efficient doesn;t hold much weight either. He might play better D, but lets be honest, he is aided by the fact that he is 6' 10'' with an insane wingspan.

His career PER is higher, barely but still higher. Durant also has two season out of five with a PER over 25... Something Melo has not done once in 9 seasons. Taking into account advanced statistics, Melo's close to Durant in some categories but overall Durant has a huge advantage. Melo's playoff stats are absolutely abysmal compared to him.

Too lazy to type them all out, but I used Basketball Reference to compare them.

Da Knicks
10-11-2012, 01:10 PM
I will let this season play out and let melo be the one who responds with his play, dont get the hate for Melo at all. If he doesnt produce i want the critisism on myself for defending him as well as on him. I dont feel like he has had a great chance with all the injuries to really show what he can do. I steady hand at pg will do wonders for him and i think he will show us who he really is...cant wait...

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 01:11 PM
His career PER is higher, barely but still higher. Durant also has two season out of five with a PER over 25... Something Melo has not done once in 9 seasons. Taking into account advanced statistics, Melo's close to Durant in some categories but overall Durant has a huge advantage. Melo's playoff stats are absolutely abysmal compared to him.

Too lazy to type them all out, but I used Basketball Reference to compare them.

I used the same reference and looked at the advanced stats as well and I can assure you that they are close in virtually every statistical category.

But like I said, I'm not arguing that Melo is a better player, I'm just trying to point out that the gap isn;t as big as people like to think.

Hellcrooner
10-11-2012, 01:16 PM
mmm sfs i would take before melos?

In no order from the top of my head ( so im must be missing some):

Havliceck, Bird, Kc Jones,Dr J, Debusschere, Bernard King, Bobby Jones ( yes defense counts in my book), Lebron, Dominique Wilkins, Pippen , Mark Aguirre, Grant Hill,Mullin, Baylor, Worhty, Wilkes, Barry, alvan adams, Walter Davis, Rudy T, Drexler,Larry Johnson, Van De Weghe, Adrian Dantley,Durant...........

Bellz
10-11-2012, 01:18 PM
Excuses, Excuses, Excuses every team in the NBA has injuries. Knicks dont get a slide because of them. Fact is Melo with the Knicks have = failiure.

So Deron Williams with the neets = failure by your thinking then....

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 01:19 PM
mmm sfs i would take before melos?

In no order from the top of my head ( so im must be missing some):

Havliceck, Bird, Kc Jones,Dr J, Debusschere, Bernard King, Bobby Jones ( yes defense counts in my book), Lebron, Dominique Wilkins, Pippen , Mark Aguirre, Grant Hill,Mullin, Baylor, Worhty, Wilkes, Barry, alvan adams, Walter Davis, Rudy T, Drexler,Larry Johnson, Van De Weghe, Adrian Dantley...........

If not for injuries maybe but you can't be serious.

Hellcrooner
10-11-2012, 01:20 PM
If not for injuries maybe but you can't be serious.

Im talking talent here.
And im completley serious.

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 01:22 PM
^ Your bias is strong then

nickdymez
10-11-2012, 01:23 PM
If not for injuries maybe but you can't be serious.

Id take a prime uninjured Grant Hill before I take a lot of players.

Gators123
10-11-2012, 01:24 PM
163rd

ClearSoulForce
10-11-2012, 01:24 PM
So let me get this straight:

"The Knicks are back" yet Melo has a bad team around him?

Hellcrooner
10-11-2012, 01:24 PM
^ Your bias is strong then

Considering Knicks are my second fav team i wouldnt think so.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 01:26 PM
3rd or 4th best player on team lmao u are a clown melo wasnt even 4th best player when he played for team usa.

Actually when he played with Team USA he barely got any PT, remember the controversy when Brown refused to play Wade, Bron, Melo much? LOL CLOWN

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 01:26 PM
The West was more competitive but it wasnt stacked, not even close to being the most stacked in history. Statistically the 2 best teams outside the Lakers were the Rockets and Blazers, they met in R.1. Yao didn't even last past R.1, Tmac was out, Manu was out which means the Spurs weren't a threat. The Mavs were weak, they had the efficiency scores a 47 win team. The Hornets were CLEARLY inferior to the Nuggets. The Jazz were first round fodder for the Lakers.

Pierce played in an easier conference but he had far less talent alongside him and played in a tougher defensive era.

You are really sugarcoating how much easier the conference was. Those Celtics won 49 games and got the 3rd seed. Utah in '09 won 49 games and barely snuck into the playoffs as the 8 seed.

The east was pathetic, regardless of the 'tougher defensive era (which is questionable at best)'. I could care less if the era was tougher defensively if the teams were trash. Pierce got to the ECF by beating a Jerry Stackhouse/Cliff Robinson led team. Melo went thru HOFers to get to the WCF.


Well we do have YEARS of evidence and trends that suggest Melo's scoring isnt all that valuable, comparably speaking vs other stars of course. But Im sure you will just write them off despite the fact that they are objective measures.


What makes you think he was at the forefront and what kind of logic is this? Are you saying that Melo's scoring value is getting worse with his team losing more each year?

What are these objective measures that explain how Paul Pierce's scoring was so vital to his teams success and Melo's were not? Please elaborate.

And Melo was the #1 offensive option on a WCF team that made it through a stacked western conference. Thats my logic. And I am not saying that at all, the dynamic of his teams have changed each year since than, he was subsequently traded to a team that gutted their entire roster and left with table scraps, and last year he flat out sucked and was out of rhythm all season, but I'm not contributing all of that to 'his scoring value getting worse'.


False, he was a far better defender in his youth and definitely a plus guy on that end. The Celtics were posting strong defensive marks long before KG showed up. Obviously switching out Antoine Walker with KG will lead to a far more epic defense, but Pierce was playing D at a higher level than Melo, that much is sure. Both the eye and the stat test agree.

Weighing an individuals defense with advanced stats, IMO, is a very imperfect science. And at the time Tony Battie, Erick Strickland, Erick Williams and Tony Delk were all considered great role playing defenders. Pierce was never considered a great defender or even mentioned in that regard until '08.

Melo's nuggets team were top 15 defensively each year he was there too.

Also, playing in a pathetic conference sapped dry of talent will improve your defensive numbers as a team.

Also x2, I know you get a boner for advanced stats so I might as well ask, why did Melo consistently have a better Drtg every season than Pierce?


Maybe now, but throughout his career it was pitiful. He only had 1 year where his team was significantly better defensively with him on the court, that just so happened to be one Denver's best years and without a doubt his best in terms of team success, that defensive effort took some air out of his offensive stats tho, so I question his 2-way ability. I dont have those same fears for Pierce. Superior defender and playmaker.

Pierce teamed up with 2 HOFers once he upped his D, so you could argue he was able to let air out of his offensive stats without sacrificing W's in order to up his D.

I know you love to let stats tell you what happens on the court, but advanced stats in basketball has a long ways to go before I take it as gospel. Too many external, intangible factors to contribute to a teams defense, offense and as a result the individual players defense and offense.

I'm not arguing Melo has had a better career than Pierce, but please try to look past your hardon for efficiency stats for once in your life.

And no, its not because they are 'objective', its because they are far from perfect. I am far from a Melo homer and bash him more than praise him in the Knicks forum, but your arguments come off as quite a joke.

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 01:27 PM
So let me get this straight:

"The Knicks are back" yet Melo has a bad team around him?

That statement came before Melo was even there, and before we traded 4 of our 5 starters for him and had to retool.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 01:27 PM
Listen, I am not someone who is going to stick his neck out for Melo too much, I think he gets some unfair criticism but for the most part the arguments against him hold some weight. But the part in bold is just flat out not true and you know it Chronz, he definitely was the best player on that team as a rookie.
What makes you think this?

Chronz
10-11-2012, 01:28 PM
i say he is lucky to be drafted in the east its a fact. he played wizard twice in the first round. One time without jamison hughes or arenas get ur facts together boy boy then come talk to a expert. #cowardkiller

Actually if he gets drafted out West then there is a far better chance that he ends up with greater management. Like you give Bron all the support Melo was able to get and he has far more talent alongside him than he ever had in Cleveland.

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 01:29 PM
Id take a prime uninjured Grant Hill before I take a lot of players.

I totally agree. But unfortunately, he suffered through those horrible injuries and they took away the majority of his prime. He could have been one of the best but when you talk about all-time greats at a position you can't re-write history based on "what would have happened".

ClearSoulForce
10-11-2012, 01:30 PM
That statement came before Melo was even there, and before we traded 4 of our 5 starters for him and had to retool.

When the Knicks had Felton, Wilson, Danillo, etc.. they were much better than the current Knicks.

Heatcheck
10-11-2012, 01:34 PM
Id take a prime uninjured Grant Hill before I take a lot of players.

yeah i dont know wtf he talkin about. i understand larry johnson, and maybe a few others, but Grant in his prime over melo is a no brainer. and its not like melos accomplished a whole heck of a lot more than grant, if at all.

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 01:34 PM
What makes you think this?

Teams leading scorer, 3rd in rebounding, 3rd in assists, 3rd in steals. He was the most dynamic offensive player on the team, the only one that was a threat from anywhere on the court and the only player that could take over when needed.

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 01:36 PM
Shooter, yes. But efficiency wise and volume wise you are talking about the difference of 1.6 ppg over their careers and a difference of 3-4% in TS% and eFG%.

Well my brother that is a big difference in terms of TS%. If he is a better shooter and scores at a higher rate how isn't he better in terms of efficiency. Honestly if you want me to give you a statistical breakdown of how much better Durant is than Melo in terms of efficiency I have no real problem with that.


Also, how can one argue he is a better defender, when there is a 1 poitn difference in their career d-ratings, and team player?

DRtg is a poor measure of individual defensive value. I mean seriously do you think Carlos Boozer is a better defensive player than Kevin Garnett? Also why are you just paying attention to DRtg but when we talking about efficiency you ignore the difference in ORtg.


My point is that the gap between Durant and Melo is not as big as most like to think.

When Melo is playing at his best sure it really isn't but honestly even at his best he hasn't been better than KD at his best.

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 01:38 PM
Teams leading scorer, 3rd in rebounding, 3rd in assists, 3rd in steals. He was the most dynamic offensive player on the team, the only one that was a threat from anywhere on the court and the only player that could take over when needed.

Don't worry, Chronz will pull out some random efficiency stat to say Melo was the 4th best player on his team.

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 01:39 PM
When the Knicks had Felton, Wilson, Danillo, etc.. they were much better than the current Knicks.

That just simply ain't true. Trust me, Ive watched every single game both teams have played.

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 01:42 PM
chronz is the same dude who admittedly said he thought Tyson Chandler was overrated on D until......gasp.......HE CHECKED HIS ADVANCED STATS.....

Watch the games my dude, put down the calculator and spreadsheet. STATs are great for supporting an argument but you take it to a whole nother level and let it determine what you see.

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 01:45 PM
Guys DEFENSIVE RATING DOES NOT TELL WHO IS BETTER THAN WHOM DEFENSIVELY.

Stop trying to use it to justify Melo as a good defender by using DRtg we can make a better case for Melo's D than by just stating what you've when he's been motivated and using youtube vids than using DRtg.

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 01:46 PM
Guys DEFENSIVE RATING DOES NOT TELL WHO IS BETTER THAN WHOM DEFENSIVELY.

Stop trying to use it to justify Melo as a good defender by using DRtg we can make a better case for Melo's D than by just stating what you've when he's been motivated and using youtube vids than using DRtg.

Than what are these advanced metrics used to determine an individuals defense?

If you want to use 'the D improved when Melo left the floor', there are way too many factors to coorelate that to Melo sucking on D. For one, whoever subs in could be a defensive specialist, or multiple defensive subs may enter the game, or the opposition's bench can't score for ****, or the opposition revvs up their scoring when Melo is in the game to match his offensive production ala a football team playing the packers.

Too many factors in the NBA to use these individual metrics to determine what you see out there. Watch the games, if the stats support your opinion, great, if they don't, don't let that determine your opinion. Too many spreadsheet warriors on this forum.

I mean Chronz is really trying to make the argument Melo was the 5th best player on the Nuggets his rookie year? I don't care what stats you pull out of your *** for that one, its simply not true.

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 01:49 PM
Than what are these advanced metrics used to determine an individuals defense?

Because there are much better more accurate metrics which can be used.

TheIlladelph16
10-11-2012, 01:49 PM
chronz is the same dude who admittedly said he thought Tyson Chandler was overrated on D until......gasp.......HE CHECKED HIS ADVANCED STATS.....

Watch the games my dude, put down the calculator and spreadsheet. STATs are great for supporting an argument but you take it to a whole nother level and let it determine what you see.

Advanced stats are FARRRRRRR more valuable in judging a players overall contribution to the game than an "eye" test. Eye tests are like opinions. They are subjective measures that depend on the person observing the game. It really shouldn't even be a discussion. Advanced stats quantify what is done on the court and give a far more accurate picture of what is really happening than you or I sitting down and watching a game.

D-Leethal
10-11-2012, 01:55 PM
Advanced stats are FARRRRRRR more valuable in judging a players overall contribution to the game than an "eye" test. Eye tests are like opinions. They are subjective measures that depend on the person observing the game. It really shouldn't even be a discussion. Advanced stats quantify what is done on the court and give a far more accurate picture of what is really happening than you or I sitting down and watching a game.

I understand the argument, 'the stats account for all the games' or whatever you want to call it, but in such a fluid, dynamic game with so many intangible plays that don't get accounted for with any stat, its FAR from perfect and too many people let them determine their opinion.

You can find serious flaws in any stat, or the rankings of players using any stat. Its far from a perfect science, its a supplement that people take as gospel.

I don't agree that eye tests are like opinion though. I understand people see the games differently, but its more than a baseless opinion.

How do you rank individual performance in such a team oriented game with so many unquantifiable actions that contribute to success of a team/player or lack thereof?

Give me any stat you want and I will easily find a way to discredit that stat.

TheIlladelph16
10-11-2012, 02:03 PM
Give me any stat you want and I will easily find a way to discredit that stat.

I don't disagree with you about advanced stats being flawed. There are always going to be flaws with statistics because as you said there are so many intangible aspects of the game that simply cannot be accounted for. The fact is its the most accurate way of truly evaluating a player without letting subjective eye tests and biases get in the way.

As far as an advanced stat debate, I think posters like Hawkeye, Chronz, or Jeffy (if you want to discuss baseball) are the ones to speak to on that. They would make a far more competent argument and are more well versed on the subjects. You may not agree with them on how much they factor in advanced stats in their rankings, but they know what they're talking about.

oballers
10-11-2012, 02:22 PM
The most dominant NBA players were PF/Cs or PG/SGs. Most of the posts on this thread are just Melo bashing for the fun of it or dare I say as a sport. For that matter I fail to see the point in posting a Melo related thread in this forum at all. The forum is a bigger joke than this thread.

I love that his biggest bashers are LA, CHI, BOS, MIA fans. To be honest you'd all be creaming your shorts if he was on one of your teams.

Melo is in the 11 -15 category (I have him at 15). I am sure you can figure out the top 10 on your own. Honestly if you actually look at the players you'll see that anything below 15 is a joke.

Note: I originally had Alex English in the the top 10 but I made room for Kevin Durant.

11 to 15 are:
Alex English
Paul Pierce
Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony
George Gervin

Followed by

Billy Cunningham
Bernard King
Mark Aguire
Bob McAdoo
Jamal Wilkes
etc...

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 02:24 PM
If you want to use 'the D improved when Melo left the floor', there are way too many factors to coorelate that to Melo sucking on D. For one, whoever subs in could be a defensive specialist, or multiple defensive subs may enter the game, or the opposition's bench can't score for ****, or the opposition revvs up their scoring when Melo is in the game to match his offensive production ala a football team playing the packers.

Well there are stats that account for that. They are called adjusted +/-.


Too many factors in the NBA to use these individual metrics to determine what you see out there. Watch the games, if the stats support your opinion, great, if they don't, don't let that determine your opinion. Too many spreadsheet warriors on this forum.

Not just on this forum honestly. In every spectrum of knowledgeable basketball enthusiasts, coaches, FOs, historians, analysts, players etc.

The best way to gauge a player's defensive worth IMO is to first and foremost watch the game and get a comprehensive understanding of the stats, reading the reports, understand the system in which he plays and the coaching he plays under. If I watch Luis Scola play a couple games a season I would think that damn this guy is a good defensive player but when I watched him play more and more I saw he made many costly mistakes on that end of the floor and when I took a look at the stats they supported my opinion.

Of course no stat is perfect and IMO can't be used on its own to determine a players worth but if your eyes and every stat is tell you the same thing don't you think that there is something there?


I mean Chronz is really trying to make the argument Melo was the 5th best player on the Nuggets his rookie year? I don't care what stats you pull out of your *** for that one, its simply not true.

I don't support Chronz in that argument so this doesn't apply to me.

oballers
10-11-2012, 02:31 PM
Y'all are waaaay off topic.

There is no realistic argument that says Melo should drop any further than 19. There are NO players in NBA History that produced at his rate for as long as he has at 20 and beyond. They just don't exist.

So this discussion has moved waay beyond the actual original question to advanced stats and is his defense good or not...

Start a new thread or somethin.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-11-2012, 02:31 PM
you cant quantify defense especially for perimeter players.

its on an eye test, scouts don't even use any stats when they judge a player defensively. they look at everything, from team defense, to quickness, to motivation, to whether he goes for the rebound after the other team shoots or just calls for the ball assuming his other teams will get the rebound, etc.

and it is known world wide that melo is not a motivated defender. it is what it is. you just have to accept it and hope he improves.

same thing with lebron in the post. he just recently showed remarkable strides in the post just last year. granted he started in 2010, and im sure he had a few "moves" before than, but he started going down the post more and being motivated towards that aspect of the game.

melo def has the tools to be a good defender. not solid or lights out defender, but much better than what we all have seen.

time will tell if he will improve on that side of the game.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 02:35 PM
chronz is the same dude who admittedly said he thought Tyson Chandler was overrated on D until......gasp.......HE CHECKED HIS ADVANCED STATS.....

Watch the games my dude, put down the calculator and spreadsheet. STATs are great for supporting an argument but you take it to a whole nother level and let it determine what you see.

Really, when did I say this?


Don't worry, Chronz will pull out some random efficiency stat to say Melo was the 4th best player on his team.


What would make it random?

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 02:40 PM
Don't worry, Chronz will pull out some random efficiency stat to say Melo was the 4th best player on his team.



What would make it random?

Apparently he couldn't find one.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 02:46 PM
Teams leading scorer, 3rd in rebounding, 3rd in assists, 3rd in steals. He was the most dynamic offensive player on the team, the only one that was a threat from anywhere on the court and the only player that could take over when needed.
If your relying on statistics to support your opinion you will have to find another argument. Statistically both Camby and Andre Miller best him sporting superior efficiency/usage rates. And Nene doesnt compare individually to Melo but he was and always has been their most important defender.

I dont know why you guys are taking offense to a 19 year old being comparable to Vets like Camby and Dre. Then you have Nene who would go to prove himself. Its not like Im saying he was leaps and bounds behind them, 19 year old Melo was a solid player but he wasn't an All-Star so to act like he was the centerpiece of a teams ultimate fate is ridiculous.

Listen to what you guys want me to believe, that Melo getting his teams to the playoffs every year is a direct reflection of him and not his teammates, one of you even put a tangible number on the amount of wins he contributed to. But just look at his rookie year, that same year Tmac missed the playoffs and won only 21 games TOTAL. Are you really trying to tell me Melo was superior to prime Tracy McGrady his rookie year?


Nope, the truth is Melo had PLENTY of help to get to the playoffs every year of his career. It may not have been otherworldly help, but there have been legitimate reasons to have him lower on the pecking order among his teammates throughout different portions of his career.

His rookie year being the one year I would think you guys have the common sense to realize he may not have been THAT great.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 02:46 PM
Apparently he couldn't find one.

You need to work on your jokes.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 02:49 PM
Actually when he played with Team USA he barely got any PT, remember the controversy when Brown refused to play Wade, Bron, Melo much? LOL CLOWN

iam talkin about the last one he scored almost as much as durant and played 10 minless a game and more the lecunt. Last olympics melo always played in the end if game was close wonder why? The larry brown team now u know why they lost u just got owned. #mandown

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-11-2012, 02:51 PM
You're telling me there are/were 25+ sf better then melo all-time? Umm no please name them

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 02:51 PM
people who played ball on any kind of level dont look at advanced stats we go by eye test. Thats why espn leaves it to cornballs like hollinger to turn basketball into math class.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 02:51 PM
The east was pathetic, regardless of the 'tougher defensive era (which is questionable at best)'.
Before I exert any effort can you plz elaborate on this? If we cant agree on something that should be tangibly clear then I see no point in debating with you.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 02:53 PM
people who played ball on any kind of level dont look at advanced stats we go by eye test. Thats why espn leaves it to cornballs like hollinger to turn basketball into math class.
Good one but Hollinger is one person, what about the people who work in the NBA? You know, the guys runnin teams your watching?

Chronz
10-11-2012, 02:54 PM
You're telling me there are/were 25+ sf better then melo all-time? Umm no please name them

Who are you speaking to?

oballers
10-11-2012, 02:54 PM
Obvously there is no such thing as a MOD around hear as this thread continues to spiral off topic and has now moved to arguing semantics for the sake of arguing.

If you guys can't offer an intelligent opinion on the actual topic of this thread then don't post.

'Melo All Time rank as SF' is what the discussion is about.

uprightciti
10-11-2012, 02:54 PM
list them! from 1 to Melo please

Chronz
10-11-2012, 02:55 PM
iam talkin about the last one he scored almost as much as durant and played 10 minless a game and more the lecunt. Last olympics melo always played in the end if game was close wonder why? The larry brown team now u know why they lost u just got owned. #mandown

Yea see Im talking about his rookie year.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 02:56 PM
Obvously there is no such thing as a MOD around hear as this thread continues to spiral off topic and has now moved to arguing semantics for the sake of arguing.

If you guys can't offer an intelligent opinion on the actual topic of this thread then don't post.

'Melo All Time rank as SF' is what the discussion is about.

You have a problem with people going off on different tangents? Or just arguing in general?

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 02:57 PM
I've seen about 2-3 posters actually argue in Carmelo's favour logically, rationally and like they actually no WTF they were talking about. Sadly none of them have posted in this thread. Guys do you want to see how to argue in Melo's favour? Ask NYKnicks4511 how to make a case for Carmelo he'll teach you guys how its done.

KnickaBocka.44
10-11-2012, 02:58 PM
If your relying on statistics to support your opinion you will have to find another argument. Statistically both Camby and Andre Miller best him sporting superior efficiency/usage rates. And Nene doesnt compare individually to Melo but he was and always has been their most important defender.

I dont know why you guys are taking offense to a 19 year old being comparable to Vets like Camby and Dre. Then you have Nene who would go to prove himself. Its not like Im saying he was leaps and bounds behind them, 19 year old Melo was a solid player but he wasn't an All-Star so to act like he was the centerpiece of a teams ultimate fate is ridiculous.

Listen to what you guys want me to believe, that Melo getting his teams to the playoffs every year is a direct reflection of him and not his teammates, one of you even put a tangible number on the amount of wins he contributed to. But just look at his rookie year, that same year Tmac missed the playoffs and won only 21 games TOTAL. Are you really trying to tell me Melo was superior to prime Tracy McGrady his rookie year?


Nope, the truth is Melo had PLENTY of help to get to the playoffs every year of his career. It may not have been otherworldly help, but there have been legitimate reasons to have him lower on the pecking order among his teammates throughout different portions of his career.

His rookie year being the one year I would think you guys have the common sense to realize he may not have been THAT great.

We aren't taking offense. He was the most impactful player on that team and without him the squad has no scoring punch and they don't get into the playoffs. Everyone has help in the NBA because it is a team game, different players have different strengths and that is what comprises a team. But using Camby's efficiency numbers to argue he was a better player doesn;t hold any weight when he took less than 8 shots per game and was never a scoring threat at any point in his career. Trying to use those stats to prove your point just proves that you are defeated.



You need to work on your jokes.

And it wasn't a joke, it was the truth.

oballers
10-11-2012, 02:59 PM
You have a problem with people going off on different tangents? Or just arguing in general?

Yup! Thats how threads get closed on the Knicks forum.

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 02:59 PM
people who played ball on any kind of level dont look at advanced stats we go by eye test. Thats why espn leaves it to cornballs like hollinger to turn basketball into math class.

Shane Battier says hi

justinnum1
10-11-2012, 03:03 PM
top 75

oballers
10-11-2012, 03:04 PM
top 75

Who are the other 74?

THE MTL
10-11-2012, 03:05 PM
I think ppl are confused between Top 50 of all time and all time rank as a SF. I think Melo has so much more to his career that needs to be established you cant make an accurate judgment.

He has a few All-NBA teams, allstar appearances, and never missed the playoffs but thats about it for now

oballers
10-11-2012, 03:09 PM
I think ppl are confused between Top 50 of all time and all time rank as a SF. I think Melo has so much more to his career that needs to be established you cant make an accurate judgment.

He has a few All-NBA teams, allstar appearances, and never missed the playoffs but thats about it for now

You just have to actually look at the list of all-time SFs to see that he is obviously top 15 or top 20. I say 14 and by the end of his career he will be in the top 10.

There are just not that many All-Time Great SFs. The all-time greats list is dominated by guards and big forwards/Cs.

Chronz
10-11-2012, 03:17 PM
We aren't taking offense. He was the most impactful player on that team
By what measure?


and without him the squad has no scoring punch and they don't get into the playoffs.
Without Dre they lose their primary playmaker and have no offensive direction, without Camby or Nene they lose their interior defensive punch and they dont get into the playoffs on and on, your not distinguishing Melo in any way here.
Lets look at the facts, on the year the Nuggets did lose some scoring punch with Melo out, in fact in the minutes he didn't play they lost 5pts off their average. If memory serves me right Rodney White was his primary backup and filled the chucking role in his absense. So yes your 100% correct on Melo being an important offensive piece but heres the thing, Andre was both more productive and influential to his teams offense, the team lost more PTS off their average without Dre on the court. The REAL difference comes in the fact that the team didn't lose anything defensively with Andre on the court, not so much because Andre is a great defender but because defense at the 1 isn't as vital as defense at the 3 and rookie Carmelo was a straight up joke on that end. So Dre is clearly better than rookie Melo.

That leaves Camby and Nene who were the defensive anchors.




Everyone has help in the NBA because it is a team game, different players have different strengths and that is what comprises a team. But using Camby's efficiency numbers to argue he was a better player doesn;t hold any weight when he took less than 8 shots per game and was never a scoring threat at any point in his career. Trying to use those stats to prove your point just proves that you are defeated..

Your right, I had Andre in mind when I said that. Melo was more important than Camby offensively, I meant him in terms of productive worth weighing in his rebounding+shotblocking+post entree passing to go with decent efficiency.



And it wasn't a joke, it was the truth
LOL do you not know about APBR? If you can find me a single credible metric that provides ANY evidence that Melo was even the teams 2nd best player I will be impressed. Until then what you consider truth is just opinion

Chronz
10-11-2012, 03:19 PM
Yup! Thats how threads get closed on the Knicks forum.

Maybe activity isnt as important over there

oballers
10-11-2012, 03:21 PM
Maybe activity isnt as important over there

No argument here. Activity never seems to be our problem.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 03:38 PM
Melo is a mega star love him hate him but u are talkin about him. Now i know why he hurt his groin to much weight on his nuts with all these damn haters usually the lebron fans hate on melo cause he has been giving lebron knife work his whole career until he joined heat 9-2 head to head. I dont count anything he does on the heat since its now him n wade.

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2012, 03:48 PM
JESUS CHRIST...i just realized your talking about his rebounding 2YEARS AGO, where he got a whopping .3 reb more than lebron, who isnt known for his rebounding anyway. is this a joke?

I ask what it is he does so elite, to say he is the most skilled offensive player in the game, and you tell me 2 years ago, he got less than half a rebound more than lebron a game, as a rebuttal? you serious?

no u fool some1 said melo is a bad rebounder so i stated that. He has no flaw on offense do u not watch basketball. He can hit the 3 go by around u or through u. he can post u up he has a handle and he is very good passer

justinnum1
10-11-2012, 03:49 PM
Melo is a mega star love him hate him but u are talkin about him. Now i know why he hurt his groin to much weight on his nuts with all these damn haters usually the lebron fans hate on melo cause he has been giving lebron knife work his whole career until he joined heat 9-2 head to head. I dont count anything he does on the heat since its now him n wade.

LMAO!

Homer much?

Evolution23
10-11-2012, 04:01 PM
LMAO!

Homer much?

Ryan Tannehill is a megastar

Da Knicks
10-11-2012, 04:13 PM
chronz is the same dude who admittedly said he thought Tyson Chandler was overrated on D until......gasp.......HE CHECKED HIS ADVANCED STATS.....

Watch the games my dude, put down the calculator and spreadsheet. STATs are great for supporting an argument but you take it to a whole nother level and let it determine what you see.

lmao this

oballers
10-11-2012, 04:15 PM
LMAO!

Homer much?

Who were those other 74 people again?

justinnum1
10-11-2012, 04:19 PM
Ryan Tannehill is a megastar

Your attempt to troll is a mega fail

Bellz
10-11-2012, 04:31 PM
Melo is a mega star love him hate him but u are talkin about him. Now i know why he hurt his groin to much weight on his nuts with all these damn haters usually the lebron fans hate on melo cause he has been giving lebron knife work his whole career until he joined heat 9-2 head to head. I dont count anything he does on the heat since its now him n wade.

How old are you? Really? You've said Melo is the 3rd best player in the nba with no agruement. Im pretty sure you've said he could be a top 3 SF of all-time in this thread which Idc what he does that will never happen and I love Melo second favorite player in the league. So you shouldn't count anything Shaq did with the lakers since he had kobe and shouldn't count anything Melo does since he has Stat. So James joins a better team then Melo join so you don't count those games? What if Melo was 2-9 vs James before he joined the heat and then went 9-2 would you count all hhis games then?

Chronz
10-11-2012, 04:40 PM
lmao this has yet to be proven

fixed

oballers
10-11-2012, 04:44 PM
How old are you? Really? You've said Melo is the 3rd best player in the nba with no agruement. Im pretty sure you've said he could be a top 3 SF of all-time in this thread which Idc what he does that will never happen and I love Melo second favorite player in the league. So you shouldn't count anything Shaq did with the lakers since he had kobe and shouldn't count anything Melo does since he has Stat. So James joins a better team then Melo join so you don't count those games? What if Melo was 2-9 vs James before he joined the heat and then went 9-2 would you count all hhis games then?

I changed the below #s because I forgot to factor in LeBron James...oops.

I am a Melo fan. Though I am a Knicks fan 1st and foremost. I have Melo at a reasonable 15th place now, behind Dantley and ahead of Gervin.

I am confident that when his career is said and done that he will jump 8 spots to top 7 slotting behind Baylor and ahead of Barry.

No homerism. Faith and I am basing this on his body of work, potential to improve and potential to win with the Knicks. I look forward to seeing how things work out.

BTW, I am old enough to have seen most 12 of the top 15 or so play.

TheIlladelph16
10-11-2012, 04:45 PM
Melo is a mega star love him hate him but u are talkin about him. Now i know why he hurt his groin to much weight on his nuts with all these damn haters usually the lebron fans hate on melo cause he has been giving lebron knife work his whole career until he joined heat 9-2 head to head. I dont count anything he does on the heat since its now him n wade.

Man that knife must really hurt Lebron... I really don't know how he even gets up in the morning for losing regular season games against Melo. Melo has certainly had the superior career with his terrific playoff performances and one conference championship appearance. Lebron only had that one finals appearance and multiple ECF appearances with a **** cast around him to hang his hat on. (Left out Miami Lebron bc it "don't count")



no u fool some1 said melo is a bad rebounder so i stated that. He has no flaw on offense do u not watch basketball. He can hit the 3 go by around u or through u. he can post u up he has a handle and he is very good passer

Every single player in this league has flaws on both sides of their game i.e. the defensive end and offensive end. If Melo was perfect on the offensive end, he would average 50 pts a game but alas he does not.:facepalm:

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 04:59 PM
I changed the below #s because I forgot to factor in LeBron James...oops.

I am a Melo fan. Though I am a Knicks fan 1st and foremost. I have Melo at a reasonable 15th place now, behind Dantley and ahead of Gervin.

I am confident that when his career is said and done that he will jump 8 spots to top 7 slotting behind Baylor and ahead of Barry.

No homerism. Faith and I am basing this on his body of work, potential to improve and potential to win with the Knicks. I look forward to seeing how things work out.

BTW, I am old enough to have seen most 12 of the top 15 or so play.

Question what has he done to get ahead of Gervin but behind Dantley? Mostly everyone would agree that Gervin would be ahead of Dantley.

oballers
10-11-2012, 05:21 PM
Question what has he done to get ahead of Gervin but behind Dantley? Mostly everyone would agree that Gervin would be ahead of Dantley.

You're right switch 'em. I just approximated on feel.

As for why I placed Melo there. I think his scoring prowess affords him that spot. Just as 'Niques scoring ability lands him in the top 10.

There is a popularity based poll on Basketball Reference that ranks the alltime greatest based on how 'most people think'.

Here is what they say.

Bird
Havlicek
Baylor
Pippen
Barry
James
Erving
Gervin
Wilkins
Mcadoo
English
Pierce
King
Dantley
Carter
Hill
McGrady
Worthy
Anthony
Cunningham
Aguirre

I am not sure I completeley agree with how 'most people' think. For one thing Durant is missing. For another Pippen is too high. Carter and Hill belong at the bottom and McGrady is also too high. Worthy is too low. I am a Dr. J Homer so I'd have him higher and McAdoo lower.

Da Knicks
10-11-2012, 05:35 PM
fixed

hahaha :laugh2: that was good Chronz! had me rolling...:clap:

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-11-2012, 05:55 PM
When has Melo been a winner again?

Swash, what does this mean?

Melo's been in the playoffs every year of his career... Was 2 games from an NBA Finals. Took the laughing stock Denver Nugget's as a 19-year old rookie, from the basements of the NBA. To a respected franchise...

I don't hear people saying Chris Paul is a loser, or that Deron Williams is a loser. Paul Pierce's Celtics in a season won less then 30 games, it wasn't until KG, and Ray came to town, everyone hopped on Pierce's tip. I don't hear anyone saying Rose is a loser... I'm sick of this double standard, some people hate, blinds their logic, and stuff unrelated to basketball. The hypocricy in this forum amazes me. (The last two sentences aren't directed @ you, Swash.)

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 06:25 PM
Swash, what does this mean?

Melo's been in the playoffs every year of his career... Was 2 games from an NBA Finals. Took the laughing stock Denver Nugget's as a 19-year old rookie, from the basements of the NBA. To a respected franchise...

I don't hear people saying Chris Paul is a loser, or that Deron Williams is a loser. Paul Pierce's Celtics in a season won less then 30 games, it wasn't until KG, and Ray came to town, everyone hopped on Pierce's tip. I don't hear anyone saying Rose is a loser... I'm sick of this double standard, some people hate, blinds their logic, and stuff unrelated to basketball. The hypocricy in this forum amazes me. (The last two sentences aren't directed @ you, Swash.)

It was directed to that poster who said Peierce never got anywhere in the post season without the other two of the big 3, IMO if you're going to use that as your argument you should look at Melo as well.

I for one think Pierce got really overrated after e big 3 came together but I still think that as an all round player he is currently ranked ahead of Melo.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-11-2012, 06:30 PM
It was directed to that poster who said Peierce never got anywhere in the post season without the other two of the big 3, IMO if you're going to use that as your argument you should look at Melo as well.

I for one think Pierce got really overrated after e big 3 came together but I still think that as an all round player he is currently ranked ahead of Melo.

I think prime Pierce is better then a current Melo. I was asking about the "He's not a winner" comment, and kinda elaborated why I disagreed, and why it didn't make sense.

bucketss
10-11-2012, 06:32 PM
Melo is a mega star love him hate him but u are talkin about him. Now i know why he hurt his groin to much weight on his nuts with all these damn haters usually the lebron fans hate on melo cause he has been giving lebron knife work his whole career until he joined heat 9-2 head to head. I dont count anything he does on the heat since its now him n wade.

lebron and melo never faced eachother in meaningful games other than this past season, why would lebron fans care when they only saw melo twice every year when he was with denver? smh

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 06:36 PM
I think prime Pierce is better then a current Melo. I was asking about the "He's not a winner" comment, and kinda elaborated why I disagreed, and why it didn't make sense.

I don't think Melo wasn't a winner. He never missed the post season I can't call that guy a loser, it was based in the context by which that other posed.

Saying when did Pierce win anything without all star help, well Pierce made it past the first round on two occasions without KG and Allen. He beat my 76ers the prior ECF in his first playoff appearance made it to the ECF and were two wins away from the finals in 02. IMO if you're going to say Paul Pierce is not a winner then you automatically gotta say the say about Melo.

Wouldn't you agree?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-11-2012, 06:36 PM
lebron and melo never faced eachother in meaningful games other than this past season, why would lebron fans care when they only saw melo twice every year when he was with denver? smh

Star power? :shrug:

I'm sure LeBron, and Melo circled those two games on their calendars. And got up for those regular season games.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-11-2012, 06:38 PM
I don't think Melo wasn't a winner. He never missed the post season I can't call that guy a loser, it was based in the context by which that other posed.

Saying when did Pierce win anything without all star help, well Pierce made it past the first round on two occasions without KG and Allen. He beat my 76ers the prior ECF in his first playoff appearance made it to the ECF and were two wins away from the finals in 02. IMO if you're going to say Paul Pierce is not a winner then you automatically gotta say the say about Melo.

Wouldn't you agree?

Oh ok. Sorry, I kinda jumped into the middle of the convo, without reading all of your discussion. Yeah, that's true... to an extent. Melo's never missed the playoffs. Pierce has.

broncofangene
10-11-2012, 06:47 PM
He couldn't carry Alex English's jock. Top 30 but one of the most selfish players ever

Hawkeye15
10-11-2012, 06:55 PM
Swash, what does this mean?

Melo's been in the playoffs every year of his career... Was 2 games from an NBA Finals. Took the laughing stock Denver Nugget's as a 19-year old rookie, from the basements of the NBA. To a respected franchise...

I don't hear people saying Chris Paul is a loser, or that Deron Williams is a loser. Paul Pierce's Celtics in a season won less then 30 games, it wasn't until KG, and Ray came to town, everyone hopped on Pierce's tip. I don't hear anyone saying Rose is a loser... I'm sick of this double standard, some people hate, blinds their logic, and stuff unrelated to basketball. The hypocricy in this forum amazes me. (The last two sentences aren't directed @ you, Swash.)

Look at the rosters he has been given....

So many attempt to play the card where Melo "lifted" a lottery team, without factoring in the injuries the Nuggets suffered that year, where a couple guys were in developmental stages, and the acquisitions player wise and on the sideline that came with Melo's incoming.

For the roster Melo was given, he didn't do a lot with it, considering many say he is a superstar.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2012, 06:56 PM
I think prime Pierce is better then a current Melo. I was asking about the "He's not a winner" comment, and kinda elaborated why I disagreed, and why it didn't make sense.

It did if you looked at the post he was replying to. Pierce wasn't a winner? Since when?

Hawkeye15
10-11-2012, 06:58 PM
Oh ok. Sorry, I kinda jumped into the middle of the convo, without reading all of your discussion. Yeah, that's true... to an extent. Melo's never missed the playoffs. Pierce has.

Team sport man, you know this. Melo has always had a lot of talent around him. Yet, so much of the time, as he rode into the all star game representing the Nuggets, and now the Knicks, he wasn't even the most important player on his team. I will say he was for a couple of seasons in Denver, and I thought an amazing career was in store after year 1, but he really never improved after year 2. Not to the degree his projections showed in year 1, when I actually thought he had a beef for ROY over LeBron.

abe_froman
10-11-2012, 07:04 PM
Team sport man, you know this. Melo has always had a lot of talent around him. Yet, so much of the time, as he rode into the all star game representing the Nuggets, and now the Knicks, he wasn't even the most important player on his team. I will say he was for a couple of seasons in Denver, and I thought an amazing career was in store after year 1, but he really never improved after year 2. Not to the degree his projections showed in year 1, when I actually thought he had a beef for ROY over LeBron.

same here.i remember watching him from late hs and college and getting flashes of the next bird (since lebron was called next magic or mj),thought that highly of melo...but just stopped molding his talent after the brawl/suspension,so disappointing as i expected better given the casts he was given.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
same here.i remember watching him from late hs and college and getting flashes of the next bird (since lebron was called next magic or mj),thought that highly of melo...but just stopped molding his talent after the brawl/suspension,so disappointing as i expected better given the casts he was given.

I started seeing a player that cares more about the name on the back of his jersey after the first couple of seasons.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
Look at the rosters he has been given....

So many attempt to play the card where Melo "lifted" a lottery team, without factoring in the injuries the Nuggets suffered that year, where a couple guys were in developmental stages, and the acquisitions player wise and on the sideline that came with Melo's incoming.

For the roster Melo was given, he didn't do a lot with it, considering many say he is a superstar.

I agreed, Melo has been on some teams, that have underacheived. But, that's besides the point. The point is Melo has been in the playoffs every year of his career. Not many players can say that. How would you like it if the Wolves would have been in the playoffs every year since 2003-current. You'd love it, huh? You must win ball games to get into the playoffs. Obviously Melo can win ball games, So where is this "he's not a winner" statement come from?

Hawkeye15
10-11-2012, 07:12 PM
I agreed, Melo has been on some teams, that have underacheived. But, that's besides the point. The point is Melo has been in the playoffs every year of his career. Not many players can say that. How would you like it if the Wolves would have been in the playoffs every year since 2003-current. You'd love it, huh? You must win ball games to get into the playoffs. Obviously Melo can win ball games, So where is this "he's not a winner" statement come from?

As I said, it was a reply to his biggest fanboy trying to throw a superior player under the bus. Melo may not be a winner for me, but he sure as hell isn't a loser. Its not like he is a cancer, I just don't think he is capable of being a #1 on a contending team.

Man, I really thought his career would be much different after watching him at Cuse', and then his rookie year.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-11-2012, 07:20 PM
As I said, it was a reply to his biggest fanboy trying to throw a superior player under the bus. Melo may not be a winner for me, but he sure as hell isn't a loser. Its not like he is a cancer, I just don't think he is capable of being a #1 on a contending team.

Man, I really thought his career would be much different after watching him at Cuse', and then his rookie year.

Haha. Yeah, iDK where it came from either.

QueensG_718
10-11-2012, 09:24 PM
Yo i swear everytime melo is brought uo in any forum all ****** do is bash melo besides knick fans. Idk if you guys are knick hater or melo haters. Heard someone puttibg melo to the likes of ron artest lmaoo bet the lakers would trade ron artest AND gasol AND nash for melo. You guys are clowns and your words mean ****. How does durant have better defense then melo? Hes defense is non existant especially for a guy who is 1. More athletic then melo 2. Taller then melo and 3. Longer arms and he still aint **** on defense. Save it haters please

Swashcuff
10-11-2012, 10:00 PM
Yo i swear everytime melo is brought uo in any forum all ****** do is bash melo besides knick fans. Idk if you guys are knick hater or melo haters. Heard someone puttibg melo to the likes of ron artest lmaoo bet the lakers would trade ron artest AND gasol AND nash for melo. You guys are clowns and your words mean ****. How does durant have better defense then melo? Hes defense is non existant especially for a guy who is 1. More athletic then melo 2. Taller then melo and 3. Longer arms and he still aint **** on defense. Save it haters please

You do realize that Knicks fans in this very thread have agreed that KDs D is better than Melo's right? Are they Knicks haters as well?

Evolution23
10-12-2012, 01:44 AM
I agreed, Melo has been on some teams, that have underacheived. But, that's besides the point. The point is Melo has been in the playoffs every year of his career. Not many players can say that. How would you like it if the Wolves would have been in the playoffs every year since 2003-current. You'd love it, huh? You must win ball games to get into the playoffs. Obviously Melo can win ball games, So where is this "he's not a winner" statement come from?

That's a fair point but people automatically discount other forces that come into play when talking about getting knocked out of the 1st round.

1. Team structure and coaches.
2. Opposing team and conference.

Evolution23
10-12-2012, 01:46 AM
You do realize that Knicks fans in this very thread have agreed that KDs D is better than Melo's right? Are they Knicks haters as well?

He was talking about Durant's defense not overall. Most people would agree Durant is better than Melo at this point.

LOOTERX9
10-12-2012, 03:33 AM
He was talking about Durant's defense not overall. Most people would agree Durant is better than Melo at this point.

I agree melo And Durant's defense needs to improve. I think Durant has a much better chance to improve defense before melo just due to the fact that he's taller and more athletic than melo. Melo tries out there on defense but his lack of pure athleticism makes it difficult for him to play D well.
As for who is the better player overall? Well I say Durant is easily the better nba player over melo. Durant's height, speed and athleticism all are greatly better than melo's. Durant inspires his teammates and fanbase while melo does not really inspire his own ny fans nor many of his teammates. As A knick fan I say
Durant > Melo

Evolution23
10-12-2012, 05:18 AM
I agree melo And Durant's defense needs to improve. I think Durant has a much better chance to improve defense before melo just due to the fact that he's taller and more athletic than melo. Melo tries out there on defense but his lack of pure athleticism makes it difficult for him to play D well.
As for who is the better player overall? Well I say Durant is easily the better nba player over melo. Durant's height, speed and athleticism all are greatly better than melo's. Durant inspires his teammates and fanbase while melo does not really inspire his own ny fans nor many of his teammates. As A knick fan I say
Durant > Melo

The whole world says that.

Swashcuff
10-12-2012, 08:49 AM
He was talking about Durant's defense not overall. Most people would agree Durant is better than Melo at this point.

So was I. There were Knicks fans in the very thread that said KD is better than Melo defensively. Didn't you read the part where I said D?

dh144498
10-12-2012, 12:34 PM
top 50 SF of all time.

Fresno
10-12-2012, 03:52 PM
So was I. There were Knicks fans in the very thread that said KD is better than Melo defensively. Didn't you read the part where I said D?

Kevin Durant is not a better defender than Melo. Thats not a statement anyone can say without a doubt because its very close.

From one instance Melo is now playing under a defensive-minded coach, unlike the first 8 1/2 years of his career where he looks much better defensively and their overall team defense is Top 10 in the league.

But its hard to shake a negative reputation for anything.

Same people say that LeBron can't shoot.

Fresno
10-12-2012, 03:54 PM
As of right now Melo is a Top 20 SF of All-Time.

If he keeps going at this rate, he will likely crack the Top 10.

The real question should be where Melo compares All-Time with Paul Pierce, because I think when all is said & done they will be interchangeable from a rankings perspective.

mngopher35
10-12-2012, 04:47 PM
I think their defense is pretty comparable at this point. Im sure there are people with either one ahead of the other. For me I think Durant is a little better and more active on d than melo. I also think weve seen the best (or very close to it) from melo on d while durant can definitely improve it over the next few years.

As for the question its hard to say so ill guess hes top 25 (maybe top 20) for now and may hit top 10-15 by the end of his career?

JordansBulls
10-13-2012, 12:24 AM
You're right switch 'em. I just approximated on feel.

As for why I placed Melo there. I think his scoring prowess affords him that spot. Just as 'Niques scoring ability lands him in the top 10.

There is a popularity based poll on Basketball Reference that ranks the alltime greatest based on how 'most people think'.

Here is what they say.

Bird
Havlicek
Baylor
Pippen
Barry
James
Erving
Gervin
Wilkins
Mcadoo
English
Pierce
King
Dantley
Carter
Hill
McGrady
Worthy
Anthony
Cunningham
Aguirre

I am not sure I completeley agree with how 'most people' think. For one thing Durant is missing. For another Pippen is too high. Carter and Hill belong at the bottom and McGrady is also too high. Worthy is too low. I am a Dr. J Homer so I'd have him higher and McAdoo lower.
You think Dantley right now is considered better than Melo?

Chronz
10-13-2012, 11:19 AM
You think Dantley right now is considered better than Melo?

Why would you even ask that?

Swashcuff
10-13-2012, 11:45 AM
Why would you even ask that?

I must have asked you this before and can't remember but what are your thoughts on Dantley?

Gram
10-13-2012, 01:46 PM
Gramelo Anthony.

Chronz
10-13-2012, 05:43 PM
I must have asked you this before and can't remember but what are your thoughts on Dantley?

Hes the single biggest reason why we shouldn't put 100% faith in stats.

Kashmir13579
10-13-2012, 06:06 PM
His stats look beast?

Swashcuff
10-14-2012, 07:25 AM
Hes the single biggest reason why we shouldn't put 100% faith in stats.

100% agree.


His stats look beast?

He has just as many seasons of 30 + PPG on a 60+ TS% as Michael Jordan (well one season he played just 22 games so we can rule that out he did average 29.8 in another however). Problem with this however was while he was scoring boat loads of points on an all world efficiency his team's offense wasn't really going anywhere.

If you look at Reggie Miller despite the fact he didn't score at a higher volume than Dantley his teams were always amongst the upper 3rd in the league in offensive efficiency. Some may even say he is what you would really consider a guy who put up empty stats all things considered. I always like to learn more about a player like Dantley which is why is seek the opinion of those who actually saw him play as well.

I often wonder how a player of his skill set would be in Today's NBA.

Chronz
10-14-2012, 12:21 PM
His stats look beast?

They take a dump on just about anyone else, hes like the Kevin McHale of his position in terms of tunnel vision and love for the post. Unlike McHale he didn't defend like a swing should and provided even less spacing for his teammates. May not have been as big a deal then, and maybe Im being unfair here because you can definitely build around his talent better nowadays with inverted offenses but when you combine tunnel vision, mediocre defense and off the ball play with **** passing, your going to be lacking in the intangible department. His awesome efficiency made him a great player regardless, but there is a big difference between his stats and say GP, McHale, MJ and the plethora of players who relied on their post game. He was more productive individually but I dont think his offenses benefit as much from his contributions.

JayW_1023
10-14-2012, 01:11 PM
He is in the 50. He is on Glen Rice, Glenn Robinson, Mitch Richmond-level. Just being a good scorer doesn't even make you top 20.


Sorry edit: read the thread title wrong (again, stupid on my part) Though all time in every position. As a SF, in the top 50 talent wise.

I still think he is more effective as a PF as of now. Tough cover there.

JordansBulls
10-14-2012, 02:52 PM
Why would you even ask that?

What do you mean?

Chronz
10-14-2012, 02:54 PM
What do you mean?

You have to be kidding me