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C-Style
10-08-2012, 09:24 PM
Hakeem- Shaq-Duncan-Bird


I notice that when ever Kobe comes up in debates as to where he ranks, these names are mentioned a lot. Does he surpass them if let's say he wins Finals-MVP with 28/6/5 44%?

With a total of 6 Championships & 3 Finals MVP I believe so, I think he removes himself from those debates and enters one vs players such as Wilt, Magic Kareem & Russell( but thats a different topic)

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 09:34 PM
He's already surpassed Hakeem, and to a degree Tim.

But yes, Shaq and Larry are next on the all-time list. Right now:


1. Michael
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Bill
5. Wilt
6. Larry
7. Shaquille
8. Kobe
9. Tim
10. Hakeem

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 09:46 PM
No he doesn't

Irregardless of team success someone like Shaq had a vastly superior career in terms of actual production and performances.

He was just a flat out better player like Jordan was.

There is nothing Kobe can do to put him on equal grounds with him let alone to surpass him.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 09:50 PM
No he doesn't

Irregardless of team success someone like Shaq had a vastly superior career in terms of actual production and performances.

He was just a flat out better player like Jordan was.

There is nothing Kobe can do to put him on equal grounds with him let alone to surpass him.

You're saying Longevity holds absolutely no importance in the National Basketball Association?

Shaq was Shaq for 13 yrs, and then was a ring chaser and a shell of his former self his last 6 yrs.


Shaq's prime >>> Kobe's prime


But when you take everything into account in terms of accolades, achievements, championships, records broken etc, Kobe wins this one.



When you're ranking the greatest players of all time, it's not just the great 4-5 yrs of dominant prime that that individual had and then you leave it at that. It's the ENTIRE BODY OF WORK.


You and I may have different definitions and criteria for all-time rankings, but that's how I go by it.

Vinylman
10-08-2012, 09:54 PM
No he doesn't

Irregardless of team success someone like Shaq had a vastly superior career in terms of actual production and performances.

He was just a flat out better player like Jordan was.

There is nothing Kobe can do to put him on equal grounds with him let alone to surpass him.

priceless :facepalm:

B'sCeltsPatsSox
10-08-2012, 09:59 PM
I'd still take all 4 ahead of Kobe unless Kobe has a Godly season this year.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 09:59 PM
You're saying Longevity holds absolutely no importance in the National Basketball Association?

Shaq was Shaq for 13 yrs.

Shaq's prime >>> Kobe's prime

But when you take everything into account in terms of accolades, achievements, championships, records broken etc, Kobe wins this one.

When you're ranking the greatest players of all time, it's not just the great 4-5 yrs of dominant prime that that individual had and then you leave it at that. It's the ENTIRE BODY OF WORK.

You and I may have different definitions and criteria for all-time rankings, but that's how I go by it.
Shaq has better longevity then Kobe.

He has double the number of Super-Star level years and more/equal All-Star level years.

The fact that he had a much better Peak and Prime.

-Was a vastly superior Finals performer
-Led more teams to the Finals
-Won more Rings as the #1
-Was a much more productive, impactful and consistent playoff performer over 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 13 years.

Doesn't matter?

4-5 dominant years?
Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995.
Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995.

Again Shaq blows Kobe out of the water in terms of production and impact over pretty much any number of years and was a much more consistent performer.

Shaq has about 9+ years better then Kobe's Peak.

Shaq is a Top 5 All-Time player and GOAT Candidate.
Kobe is not even in the same ballpark as him and never will be.

xxplayerxx23
10-08-2012, 10:01 PM
I have Kobe 9th right behind Timmy D. I don't think he really goes any higher.

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 10:04 PM
i'd still take all 4 ahead of kobe unless kobe has a godly season this year.

+1

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 10:06 PM
Shaq has better longevity then Kobe.

He has double the number of Super-Star level years and more/equal All-Star level years.

The fact that he had a much better Peak and Prime.

-Was a vastly superior Finals performer
-Led more teams to the Finals
-Won more Rings as the #1
-Was a much more productive, impactful and consistent playoff performer over 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 13 years.

Doesn't matter?

4-5 dominant years?
Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995.
Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995.

Again Shaq blows Kobe out of the water in terms of production and impact over pretty much any number of years and was a much more consistent performer.

Shaq has about 9+ years better then Kobe's Peak.


1995 - MJ came back 65 games into the regular season and that Bulls team lost to Shaq's Magic in the Semis. If MJ never took time off, Hakeem would be without 1 or maybe even 2 rings and Shaq probably wouldn't have made a singles finals appearance in his tenure in Orlando. That's the only reason really why Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting, MJ would have bumped him down to 3rd.


Shaq was a superior finals performer against the likes of Smits, Big Smooth Sam Perkins, Dale Davis, Mutombo, Matt Geiger, Tod Maccollough, Aaron Williams, Ericka Dampier, Ben Wallace. (These are all the centers that Shaq went up against in the finals), but we all saw when he faced a real center in Hakeem in the 95 Finals. Shaq struggled against the Marquee West teams with foul trouble when he used to go up against Floppy Divac and the Twin Towers of Duncan & Robinson, and Kobe was basically the MVP of the first 3 rounds. You know it, everybody's momma knows it.

And Shaq had trouble closing games during those times. In come Kobe doing everything in the 4th and the dagger shooters like Shaw, Fish, Fox and Horry

Bruno
10-08-2012, 10:07 PM
kobe has had a better career than bird.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 10:08 PM
kobe has had a better career than bird.

I think so as well.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 10:12 PM
1995 - MJ came back 65 games into the regular season and that Bulls team lost to Shaq's Magic in the Semis. If MJ never took time off, Hakeem would be without 1 or maybe even 2 rings and Shaq probably wouldn't have made a singles finals appearance in his tenure in Orlando. That's the only reason really why Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting, MJ would have bumped him down to 3rd.

Shaq was a superior finals performer against the likes of Smits, Big Smooth Sam Perkins, Dale Davis, Mutombo, Matt Geiger, Tod Maccollough, Aaron Williams, Ericka Dampier, Ben Wallace. (These are all the centers that Shaq went up against in the finals), but we all saw when he faced a real center in Hakeem in the 95 Finals. Shaq struggled against the Marquee West teams with foul trouble when he used to go up against Floppy Divac and the Twin Towers of Duncan & Robinson, and Kobe was basically the MVP of the first 3 rounds. You know it, everybody's momma knows it.

You're wasting your time with excuses.
Let me make this simple for you so you can understand

If you compare Shaq and Kobe over their best 5-13 years in the playoffs.
Shaq absolutely ANNIHLATES Kobe in terms of production / actual performances, impact and consistency.

He has about 10-12 Super-Star level seasons where Kobe has about 4-6.

If Kobe ends up having 1-2 more All-Star level seasons on the whole do you really think that would make up for the MASSIVE and absolutely enormous difference in the quality between their Peak / Prime's and the majority of their careers?

It's just not logical.
Shaq's playoff career is pretty similar in value to Jordan's

He was one of the best 3 playoff performers in the history of the game and the GOAT Finals performer.

Also quit your bulls*** excuses.
Kobe was never the MVP in the early 00's.

He wasn't even better then Prime Pippen in 00 and 02 and you wanna argue he was equal/better then Shaq?

00 Kobe = 21 / 4.5 / 4.5apg on 51%TS
02 Kobe = 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 52%TS
92 Pippen = 20 / 9 / 7apg on 54%TS (with way better defensive impact).

Also Shaq lost in the 95 Finals because his supporting cast got outplayed.
In his 3rd year he practically played Peak Hakeem to a wash and had an absolutely incredible Finals performance.

Shaq outplayed Hakeem on the whole in their h2h matchups from 93-95 and dominated Prime Hakeem in 96 and 97.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2012, 10:13 PM
Already passed Bird. The others he never passes unless he finds the fountain of youth.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 10:15 PM
#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6

------------------------------------------------------------

#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33

------------------------------------------------------------

#15.
Kobe : Post Season - PER
Peak : 26.8
Top 5 : 24
Top 7 : 23
Top 10 : 22.98
Top 13 : 21.62

------------------------------------------------------------


Kobe passing Shaq?
Not happening in this universe.

He can get #7 no higher.

The goods
10-08-2012, 10:16 PM
kobe has had a better career than bird.

I think so as well.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 10:19 PM
You're wasting your time with excuses.
Let me make this simple for you so you can understand

If you compare Shaq and Kobe over their best 5-13 years in the playoffs.
Shaq absolutely ANNIHLATES Kobe in terms of production / actual performances, impact and consistency.

He has about 10-12 Super-Star level seasons where Kobe has about 4-6.

If Kobe ends up having 1-2 more All-Star level seasons on the whole do you really think that would make up for the MASSIVE and absolutely enormous difference in the quality between their Peak / Prime's and the majority of their careers?

It's just not logical.
Shaq's playoff career is pretty similar in value to Jordan's

He was one of the best 3 playoff performers in the history of the game and the GOAT Finals performer.

Also quit your bulls*** excuses.
Kobe was never the MVP in the early 00's.

He wasn't even better then Prime Pippen in 00 and 02 and you wanna argue he was equal/better then Shaq?

00 Kobe = 21 / 4.5 / 4.5apg on 51%TS
02 Kobe = 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 52%TS
92 Pippen = 20 / 9 / 7apg on 54%TS (with way better defensive impact).

Also Shaq lost in the 95 Finals because his supporting cast got outplayed.
In his 3rd year he practically played Peak Hakeem to a wash and had an absolutely incredible Finals performance.

Shaq outplayed Hakeem on the whole in their h2h matchups from 93-95 and dominated Prime Hakeem in 96 and 97.



I believe you're the one trying to make excuses and wasting everyone's time here. The fact that after I stumped you on what Hakeem did to Shaq in the Finals, you managed to bring up "regular season" h2h matchups. Funny how you transitioned from Dominant Finals performances to regular season match ups in the blink of an eye.


And the fact that you denigrated afro Kobe's worth by comparing him to Scottie and didn't point out the other aspects of afro Kobe's game (who closed games, series etc. unlike Scottie, who had MJ to be the closer for the Bulls) just proves right there your biased against Kobe Bean.


You still haven't come to the Lakers forum to receive your royal ***-kicking yet, so we're still waiting for you to show all this grand pride that you do in the NBA Forum when you have these stat whores and those who want to kill Kobe like Chronz, hidalgo and naps to back you up, because you know once you enter the Dungeon of Doom that is the Lakers forum, you won't have anybody holding your purse for you.


You're Welcome.

IndiansFan337
10-08-2012, 10:20 PM
Hakeem- Shaq-Duncan-Bird


I notice that when ever Kobe comes up in debates as to where he ranks, these names are mentioned a lot. Does he surpass them if let's say he wins Finals-MVP with 28/6/5 44%?

With a total of 6 Championships & 3 Finals MVP I believe so, I think he removes himself from those debates and enters one vs players such as Wilt, Magic Kareem & Russell( but thats a different topic)

I think for him to win another MVP the LAL would have to win 70+ games, due to the hype they are getting now after their two big acquisitions. I don't see that happening.

I think he's already in the same discussion with Hakeem and Shaq. I don't think anyone can be mad if you have Kobe above them or those two above him. I think Duncan and Bird are in a tier above Kobe though. But I guess you have to look a longevity and Kobe has already had way more All-Star seasons than those guys. So maybe he does belong above them even if they were better at their peak.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 10:21 PM
Kobe passing Shaq?
Not happening in this universe.

He can get #7 no higher.

So then Shaq should be ahead of Larry, and also ahead of Wilt as you said that Shaq has led more teams to the finals.


Larry led 5 teams to the finals and won 3 titles, and 2 finals MVPs.

But Shaq led 5 teams to the finals (not counting 06) and won 3 titles and 3 finals MVPs.


Wilt won 1 title with the Sixers and co-led the Lakers to the 72 finals with Jerry West and won 1 finals MVPs.


That can only mean that Shaq > Bird, and Shaq > Wilt. Right? :eyebrow:


By your criteria, Shaq should be #5 all time behind Michael, Magic, Kareem and Russell.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 10:24 PM
The fact that after I stumped you on what Hakeem did to Shaq in the Finals.
You didn't "stump me" buddy.
Hakeem slightly outplayed Shaq in that series.

On the whole though looking at all their h2h matchups from 93-95 Shaq outplayed Hakeem and in 96 and 97 Shaq dominated a still Prime Hakeem.

You're biased so you won't accept the truth but Hakeem won that series because his roleplayers vastly outplayed O'neals.

Scott and Anderson choked while Horry and Elie exploded and played like All-Stars and even Smith and Cassell contributed huge clutch games here and there.
Despite that 2 of the games were very close and only 1 was a blowout.

I'd love to see 3rd year Kobe almost play Peak Hakeem to a wash.

Also your brutal and pathetic double standard when it comes to the competition Shaq/Kobe faced makes me laugh.
You point out when Shaq had big series against lame defenders but completely do the opposite with Kobe.

And unlike Kobe (back in the 3peat days) Shaq had to deal with being the focus of opposing defense and facing double/triple and even quadruple teams at times.

Kobe's big 01 series against the Spurs came against the worst perimiter defense imaginable.
He was defended on single coverage (thanks to Shaq) by an undersized pg and 38 year old porter.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 10:29 PM
You didn't "stump me" buddy.
Hakeem slightly outplayed Shaq in that series.

On the whole though looking at all their h2h matchups from 93-95 Shaq outplayed Hakeem and in 96 and 97 Shaq dominated a still Prime Hakeem.

You're biased so you won't accept the truth but Hakeem won that series because his roleplayers vastly outplayed O'neals.

Scott and Anderson choked while Horry and Elie exploded and played like All-Stars and even Smith and Cassell contributed huge clutch games here and there.
Despite that 2 of the games were very close and only 1 was a blowout.

I'd love to see 3rd year Kobe almost play Peak Hakeem to a wash.

Also your brutal and pathetic double standard when it comes to the competition Shaq/Kobe faced makes me laugh.
You point out when Shaq had big series against lame defenders but completely do the opposite with Kobe.

And unlike Kobe (back in the 3peat days) Shaq had to deal with being the focus of opposing defense and facing double/triple and even quadruple teams at times.

Kobe's big 01 series against the Spurs came against the worst perimiter defense imaginable.
He was defended on single coverage (thanks to Shaq) by an undersized pg and 38 year old porter.


Read the bolded, you're doing the same thing trying to bring down Kobe and raise up Shaq. Cool how you don't mention that Kobe played pretty well against an improved Spurs team in the 02 Semis when they acquired Bowen.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 10:37 PM
Read the bolded, you're doing the same thing trying to bring down Kobe and raise up Shaq. Cool how you don't mention that Kobe played pretty well against an improved Spurs team in the 02 Semis when they acquired Bowen.
I was trying to make my point about the double standard.

I give Kobe plenty of credit for his 02 series VS the Spurs.
I actually thought that was the one series in the 3peat where he had a reasonable case for MVP.

However realistically Shaq statistically dwarfed Kobe in 7/9 Western Conference Series over the 3peat and he was the MVP of 8/9 WCSeries.

Not even ignoring the Finals where Shaq usually carried them.
(Remind me again why the Finals don't matter?)

You also ignore game context.
Shaq was the main focus of opposing defense (keeping them off balance) and the one getting double/triple teamed.
He was also one of the best defensive anchors in the league and his impact defensively was far greater then Bryant's.

There is more to the story then just who had the biggest stats (even though Shaq did 99% of the time).

Six-8-TheWizard
10-08-2012, 10:38 PM
priceless :facepalm:

:laugh2:

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 10:42 PM
priceless :facepalm:
Irregardless is an informal term commonly used in place of regardless.

I am just assuming you don't know what the word means.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-08-2012, 10:48 PM
His peak spot in the GOAT is around 6th. So he has 2-3 spots to move up. Depends on the season he has.

Vinylman
10-08-2012, 10:48 PM
Irregardless is an informal term commonly used in place of regardless.

I am just assuming you don't know what the word means.

:speechless::facepalm::speechless:

priceless

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Avenged
10-08-2012, 10:50 PM
Already passed Bird. The others he never passes unless he finds the fountain of youth.

If I remember correctly you rank Bird pretty high and had him in your top 5 all-time at one point. I am certain Kobe isn't in your top 5 so.. did you change your stance on Bird?

C-Style
10-08-2012, 10:55 PM
No he doesn't

Irregardless of team success someone like Shaq had a vastly superior career in terms of actual production and performances.

He was just a flat out better player like Jordan was.

There is nothing Kobe can do to put him on equal grounds with him let alone to surpass him.

Yes but as a bonafide Kobe hater, ur opinion doesn't matter.

jam
10-08-2012, 11:01 PM
I'd still take all 4 ahead of Kobe unless Kobe has a Godly season this year.

That's a good point. I would absolutely take a peak Shaq, Duncan, Bird or Hakeem ahead of peak Kobe every single time, without question.

Bird's teammates were always able to get theirs because Bird made the right play. He was always looking for his teammates, often to the point that his teammates were just as surprised as the defenses that Bird found them. That's how ridiculous Bird was in finding those invisible seams in the defense.

Kobe's teammates are often caught second guessing themselves because they're intimidated by Kobe. He doesn't have any faith in his teammates, and even when he does, he is constantly seeking to intimidate them and stake out his position as team alpha.

Likewise, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan are extremely unselfish and are looking to distribute the basketball.

The bottom line is that Dream, Shaq, Duncan and Bird inspired their teammates, and made them better players. Kobe meanwhile, hordes the spotlight and shot attempts, drives his coaches insane because of his selfishness, but has the determination and balls to both succeed and fail in equal measure.

Kobe ironically may be the most embarrassing winner of all time.

mamba24
10-08-2012, 11:10 PM
No he doesn't

Irregardless of team success someone like Shaq had a vastly superior career in terms of actual production and performances.

He was just a flat out better player like Jordan was.

There is nothing Kobe can do to put him on equal grounds with him let alone to surpass him.

what do you mean by more production? kobe played more minutes played, more games played, more playoff minutes played, playoff games played, more playoff points/assists/steals, scored more regular season points/assists/steals, won more titles, has equal regular season mvp awards, 2 finals mvps to shaq's 3, has made more free throws than shaq while shooting 3,000 less over the course of their careers, etc...

Kobe's production has been unreal. adding a championship and another mvp would only solidify his place about shaq among the all-time-greats even more. also... "irregardless" isnt a word

Ebbs
10-08-2012, 11:14 PM
I don't know I think Kobe will have a tough time passing those guys in my mind. As I don't think he will be the best player on his team this year.

beasted86
10-08-2012, 11:21 PM
Probably not... his ranking is pretty much set.

Really depends on how he wins. What type of impact he has in their next championship. If everyone is playing like crap and Kobe is willing them with big shot after big shot to win the series, then great. That would advance him.

If he and Dwight both average 22 PPG, and they just happen to pick Kobe almost "just because" kind of like when Tony Parker won over Duncan in '07 because of "flashiness", then it won't advance him at all IMO. It would be "just another ring" not adding to his legacy.

jam
10-08-2012, 11:22 PM
You have to figure in the level of contribution of each player however.

Shaq's 36 ppg in his first 3 championships surely trumps Kobe's 21 ppg. No one in their right mind believes Kobe contributed equally.

It's quite pointless to compare Shaq and Kobe's assist and steals totals. Kobe is obviously handling the ball a lot more and therefore getting more assists. He's also going to get more steals playing passing lanes on the perimeter.

You also don't mention the fact that Shaq typically missed 20-30 games a season and therefore his career totals are going to be lower as a result.

The bottom line is Shaq was far more dominant that Kobe ever was, at any point in Kobe's career.

No one in their right mind chooses a peak Kobe over a peak Shaq.

As far as a career achievement award, you might as well hand it to Karl Malone right now.


what do you mean by more production? kobe played more minutes played, more games played, more playoff minutes played, playoff games played, more playoff points/assists/steals, scored more regular season points/assists/steals, won more titles, has equal regular season mvp awards, 2 finals mvps to shaq's 3, has made more free throws than shaq while shooting 3,000 less over the course of their careers, etc...

Kobe's production has been unreal. adding a championship and another mvp would only solidify his place about shaq among the all-time-greats even more. also... "irregardless" isnt a word

beasted86
10-08-2012, 11:28 PM
You have to figure in the level of contribution of each player however.

Shaq's 36 ppg in his first 3 championships surely trumps Kobe's 21 ppg. No one in their right mind believes Kobe contributed equally.

It's quite pointless to compare Shaq and Kobe's assist and steals totals. Kobe is obviously handling the ball a lot more and therefore getting more assists. He's also going to get more steals playing passing lanes on the perimeter.

You also don't mention the fact that Shaq typically missed 20-30 games a season and therefore his career totals are going to be lower as a result.

The bottom line is Shaq was far more dominant that Kobe ever was, at any point in Kobe's career.

No one in their right mind chooses a peak Kobe over a peak Shaq.

As far as a career achievement award, you might as well hand it to Karl Malone right now.

No one?

You might want to avoid the Kobephiles in the NBA forum then. There are a good few lunatics who actually think Kobe was better offensively from 01-02 onward.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 11:30 PM
Probably not... his ranking is pretty much set.

Really depends on how he wins. What type of impact he has in their next championship. If everyone is playing like crap and Kobe is willing them with big shot after big shot to win the series, then great. That would advance him.

If he and Dwight both average 22 PPG, and they just happen to pick Kobe almost "just because" kind of like when Tony Parker won over Duncan in '07 because of "flashiness", then it won't advance him at all IMO. It would be "just another ring" not adding to his legacy.

Incorrect.


Duncan's pt totals in the Finals: 24, 23, 13, 12. Total pts: 72 Avg 18.0 PPG

Parker's pt totals in the Finals: 27, 30, 17, 24. Total pts: 98 Avg 24.5 PPG


That's why he won FMVP over Duncan. He was leading scorer for the first 3 games (Ginobili leading scorer in game 4 with 27). Duncan wasn't the leader scorer of any of the 4 games.

Believe it or not, guys like Big Z, Varajao and Gooden held their own against Timmy.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 11:33 PM
also... "irregardless" isnt a word
Irregardless is an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795.

In the last twenty-five years, irregardless has become a common entry in dictionaries and usage reference books. It appears in a wide range of dictionaries including: Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged (1961, repr. 2002),[3] The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology (1988), The American Heritage Dictionary (Second College Edition, 1991),[4] Microsoft Encarta College Dictionary (2001), and Webster's New World College Dictionary (Fourth Edition, 2004).[5] The definition in most dictionaries is simply listed as regardless.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 11:37 PM
Irregardless is an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795.

In the last twenty-five years, irregardless has become a common entry in dictionaries and usage reference books. It appears in a wide range of dictionaries including: Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged (1961, repr. 2002),[3] The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology (1988), The American Heritage Dictionary (Second College Edition, 1991),[4] Microsoft Encarta College Dictionary (2001), and Webster's New World College Dictionary (Fourth Edition, 2004).[5] The definition in most dictionaries is simply listed as regardless.


Ok, that's great and all, but what about the use of the word in the pre-shot clock era?

RaiderLakersA's
10-08-2012, 11:38 PM
For me he has already surpassed those individuals.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 11:42 PM
Player's Kobe cannot surpass
-------
Jordan
Shaq
Kareem
Russell
Magic

Player's Kobe probably won't surpass
-------
Duncan

Player's Kobe could theoretically surpass
-------
Bird
Hakeem
Wilt

Go to sleep now guys, jk.

mamba24
10-08-2012, 11:42 PM
You have to figure in the level of contribution of each player however.

Shaq's 36 ppg in his first 3 championships surely trumps Kobe's 21 ppg. No one in their right mind believes Kobe contributed equally.

It's quite pointless to compare Shaq and Kobe's assist and steals totals. Kobe is obviously handling the ball a lot more and therefore getting more assists. He's also going to get more steals playing passing lanes on the perimeter.

You also don't mention the fact that Shaq typically missed 20-30 games a season and therefore his career totals are going to be lower as a result.

The bottom line is Shaq was far more dominant that Kobe ever was, at any point in Kobe's career.

No one in their right mind chooses a peak Kobe over a peak Shaq.

As far as a career achievement award, you might as well hand it to Karl Malone right now.


i definitely can see your points. i am a kobe homer obviously. i would still take a prime shaq over kobe. i see that comparing their primes shaq was better. i also never have ever thought kobe contributed equally to the 3peat. kobe was the clear #2. shaq was clearly the #2 in miami for that title. after shaq won in miami...literally the next year...his decline became pretty evident. kobe has played at a higher level longer than shaq did. in my opinion, longevity is a big deal when it comes to all time rankings. missing 20-30 games a year due to injury/being out of shape hurts his legacy. kobe had more years producing at a higher level than shaq. thats just my opinion. i could totally understand why anyone would take shaq over kobe tho.

karl malone didnt win anything other than the mvp award lol. he gets no career achievement award in my book.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-08-2012, 11:43 PM
He's already passed all of them in my opinion
The only one really I would argue would be bird the rest he's passed and if he gets #6 he will no doubt be in the top 5 all-time category and the greatest laker ever!
6 championships
15 all-star games
3 Time finals mvp's
MVP
Countless broken records etc.

There won't be 5 guys better then Kobe all-time

mamba24
10-08-2012, 11:44 PM
Ok, that's great and all, but what about the use of the word in the pre-shot clock era?

:laugh:

jerellh528
10-08-2012, 11:46 PM
I don't know why you guys waste your time arguing with andrew lol! He is the biggest Kobe hater I have ever seen, the only time I ever see him post is when he has an opportunity to bash kobe, it's like he has some type of personal agenda against him lol just forget whatever that dude says :)

JasonJohnHorn
10-08-2012, 11:46 PM
For me, rings and mvps awards help a resume, but they don't make you better.

Bird was SUCH a great passer, and SUCH a great rebounder, and SUCH a great shooter. And he made his teammates better. I don't care if Kobe wins the next 3 titles, he's not as good as Bird. He's had more longevity, and won more, I'd say he's had a better career, but he's not a better player. Prime Bird is better than prime Kobe. Bird did't age well because of his back, but at their respective peaks, there is no question for me. I actually posted their career averages about a month ago without their names and asked people to pick which player they'd want on their team, and until I revealed who was who, NOBODY voted for Kobe.

As for Hakeem, Magic, Wilt, Duncan, yes, he's had a better 'career' than they have, but he is not a better player than any of those players. Take John Stockton for example, most people have him as the best PG of all time outside of Magic and the Big O (some people put the Big O a SG or SF because he played all three positions). NOBODY says Thomas was better than Stockton, but he had a better career. He's got himself a finals MVP and two rings.

Malone and Barkley, it's the same thing. Rodman had a better career than each of them. He came away with five rings and lead the league in rebound for a record number of consecutive season, but NOBDOY says he's better than Malone or Barkley, despite the fact that neither of them have a ring.

Nobody says Pippen is better than Bird because he's got six rings to Bird's 3.


There is a difference between having a better career and being a better player. For me, the players you named, Kobe has played at the highest level he is capable of, and I'd still take any of those players over Kobe, regardless of how many more rings Kobe might have.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 11:47 PM
Shaq had 11 Super-Star Seasons and 5-6 All-Star level Seasons
Kobe had 4-5 Super-Star Seasons and 8 All-Star level Seasons

Kobe hasn't even matched Shaq's longevity yet and Shaq was a much better player in terms of production/performance, consistency and impact AKA quality over pretty much any sample size........
(1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 13 years etc...).

Shaq from 95-03 was better then Kobe has ever been.

I really don't see the logic for Kobe over Shaq.

Better Peak? Shaq
Better Prime? Shaq
Better Playoff Performer? Shaq
Better Finals Performer? Shaq

Most Rings as the #1? Shaq
Most Finals appearances as the #1? Shaq

Best longevity? Shaq

What is Kobe better at that he should be ranked higher... lol?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 11:52 PM
For me, rings and mvps awards help a resume, but they don't make you better.

Bird was SUCH a great passer, and SUCH a great rebounder, and SUCH a great shooter. And he made his teammates better. I don't care if Kobe wins the next 3 titles, he's not as good as Bird. He's had more longevity, and won more, I'd say he's had a better career, but he's not a better player. Prime Bird is better than prime Kobe. Bird did't age well because of his back, but at their respective peaks, there is no question for me. I actually posted their career averages about a month ago without their names and asked people to pick which player they'd want on their team, and until I revealed who was who, NOBODY voted for Kobe.

As for Hakeem, Magic, Wilt, Duncan, yes, he's had a better 'career' than they have, but he is not a better player than any of those players. Take John Stockton for example, most people have him as the best PG of all time outside of Magic and the Big O (some people put the Big O a SG or SF because he played all three positions). NOBODY says Thomas was better than Stockton, but he had a better career. He's got himself a finals MVP and two rings.

Malone and Barkley, it's the same thing. Rodman had a better career than each of them. He came away with five rings and lead the league in rebound for a record number of consecutive season, but NOBDOY says he's better than Malone or Barkley, despite the fact that neither of them have a ring.

Nobody says Pippen is better than Bird because he's got six rings to Bird's 3.


There is a difference between having a better career and being a better player. For me, the players you named, Kobe has played at the highest level he is capable of, and I'd still take any of those players over Kobe, regardless of how many more rings Kobe might have.



That's fine and all, but once again, all-time rankings are based on the whole body of work. Stats, type of player you were, your prime, awards, clutch, performance in the big moments, championships, records etc.

Bird was a better rebounder and passer, but Kobe was just the better flat out scorer and defensive player. Why leave that out?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 11:53 PM
Shaq had 11 Super-Star Seasons and 5-6 All-Star level Seasons
Kobe had 4-5 Super-Star Seasons and 8 All-Star level Seasons

Kobe hasn't even matched Shaq's longevity yet and Shaq was a much better player in terms of production/performance, consistency and impact AKA quality over pretty much any sample size........
(1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 13 years etc...).

Shaq from 95-03 was better then Kobe has ever been.

I really don't see the logic for Kobe over Shaq.

Better Peak? Shaq
Better Prime? Shaq
Better Playoff Performer? Shaq
Better Finals Performer? Shaq

Most Rings as the #1? Shaq
Most Finals appearances as the #1? Shaq

Best longevity? Shaq

What is Kobe better at that he should be ranked higher... lol?

longevity and Shaq don't go together.


Shaq wasn't Shaq the last 6 yrs of his career, he was Snaq!

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 11:55 PM
longevity and Shaq don't go together.
And yet Shaq has better longevity then Kobe.
:eyebrow:

Guess that means Kobe has terrible longevity.
:p

Shaq had some of the best longevity in the history of the game irregardless of his poor play at the very end of his career.
Kareem is probably the only one with better longevity.

jam
10-09-2012, 12:03 AM
That's fine and all, but once again, all-time rankings are based on the whole body of work. Stats, type of player you were, your prime, awards, clutch, performance in the big moments, championships, records etc.

Bird was a better rebounder and passer, but Kobe was just the better flat out scorer and defensive player. Why leave that out?

You have to keep in mind that Bird had many more shooters and scorers on his team and that influenced the number of shots he took and therefore his average. Therefore, I really doubt that Kobe was the "better" scorer.

For example, in Bird's 3 best scoring seasons, he averaged 29.9, 28.7, and 28.1 ppg. He shot over 90% from the line and 52.5% from the field. He also shot 41% from 3 pt. land in those 3 seasons.

In comparison, Kobe averaged 35.4, 31.6, and 30 ppg in his 3 best seasons. However, his efficiency was much lower: 45% from the field, 85% from the line, and about 35% from 3 pt. land in his 3 top scoring seasons.

Bird shot the ball less, because he had other great scorers on his team, but that certainly does not reflect negatively on his ability to score.

jerellh528
10-09-2012, 12:04 AM
You have to keep in mind that Bird had many more shooters and scorers on his team and that influenced the number of shots he took and therefore his average. Therefore, I really doubt that Kobe was the "better" scorer.

For example, in Bird's 3 best scoring seasons, he averaged 29.9, 28.7, and 28.1 ppg. He shot over 90% from the line and 52.5% from the field. He also shot 41% from 3 pt. land.

In comparison, Kobe averaged 35.4, 31.6, and 30 ppg in his 3 best seasons. However, his efficiency was much lower: 45% from the field, 85% from the line, and about 35% from 3 pt. land.

Bird shot the ball less, because he had other great scorers on his team, but that certainly does not reflect negatively on his ability to score.

lol

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 12:05 AM
Psd is the worst place to rank players because 90% of posters have agendas against certain players

jerellh528
10-09-2012, 12:08 AM
Psd is the worst place to rank players because 90% of posters have agendas against certain players

yep

jam
10-09-2012, 12:08 AM
longevity and Shaq don't go together.


Shaq wasn't Shaq the last 6 yrs of his career, he was Snaq!

Shaq played 19 seasons. Every player's stats decline at the ends of their careers. What is your point?

Andrew32
10-09-2012, 12:14 AM
Shaq played 19 seasons. Every player's stats decline at the ends of their careers. What is your point?

He doesn't have one...

Shaq wasn't that bad after 06 either.
Obviously he was a nothing like his past dominant self but he was probably still an All-Star until 2010.

07 : 19 / 9 / 1.5bpg on 56% shooting
08 : 15 / 9 / 2.6bpg on 54% shooting
09 : (regular season) (missed playoffs) : 18 / 9 / 1.5bpg on 60% shooting.

beliges
10-09-2012, 01:02 AM
Its difficult to pin point where Kobe will end up on the all time list at this point because its difficult to ***** his entire career while its still ongoing. He has a better resume than anyone who has ever played the game outside of MJ, Kareem and Russel. His basketball accomplishments match everything Magic and Wilt have done. I think once he calls it quits and we take a look at his career from the beginning, he will be right there with Magic and Wilt and right behind MJ and Kareem.

C-Style
10-09-2012, 01:03 AM
I don't know why you guys waste your time arguing with andrew lol! He is the biggest Kobe hater I have ever seen, the only time I ever see him post is when he has an opportunity to bash kobe, it's like he has some type of personal agenda against him lol just forget whatever that dude says :)

I skip his post now

jam
10-09-2012, 01:08 AM
Its difficult to pin point where Kobe will end up on the all time list at this point because its difficult to ***** his entire career while its still ongoing. He has a better resume than anyone who has ever played the game outside of MJ, Kareem and Russel. His basketball accomplishments match everything Magic and Wilt have done. I think once he calls it quits and we take a look at his career from the beginning, he will be right there with Magic and Wilt and right behind MJ and Kareem.

This is one of the strangest posts I have ever seen on this topic. :D

Chronz
10-09-2012, 01:18 AM
Its difficult to pin point where Kobe will end up on the all time list at this point because its difficult to ***** his entire career while its still ongoing. He has a better resume than anyone who has ever played the game outside of MJ, Kareem and Russel. His basketball accomplishments match everything Magic and Wilt have done. I think once he calls it quits and we take a look at his career from the beginning, he will be right there with Magic and Wilt and right behind MJ and Kareem.

This is one of the strangest posts I have ever seen on this topic. :D
Even I have to marvel at Kobes resume. There is nothing untrue about what he said.

beasted86
10-09-2012, 01:34 AM
Incorrect.


Duncan's pt totals in the Finals: 24, 23, 13, 12. Total pts: 72 Avg 18.0 PPG

Parker's pt totals in the Finals: 27, 30, 17, 24. Total pts: 98 Avg 24.5 PPG


That's why he won FMVP over Duncan. He was leading scorer for the first 3 games (Ginobili leading scorer in game 4 with 27). Duncan wasn't the leader scorer of any of the 4 games.

Believe it or not, guys like Big Z, Varajao and Gooden held their own against Timmy.

PPG is not the end all be all deciding factor of who is a better player or had the greatest impact on a series.

Bruce Bowen did a good job of playing tough defense, but if Duncan wasn't there LeBron would have owned the Spurs. Duncan was by far the team's best defender, and his presence and domination allowed Parker so much freedom on the pick and roll.

On a greater note the Cavs starting PG Larry Hughes (also their best defensive guard at the time) was injured and Parker got to pick apart a rookie Boobie Gibson and a washed up Erik Snow. Not so impressive once put into that context.

Chronz
10-09-2012, 01:37 AM
PPG is not the end all be all deciding factor of who is a better player or had the greatest impact on a series.

Bruce Bowen did a good job of playing tough defense, but if Duncan wasn't there LeBron would have owned the Spurs. Duncan was by far the team's best defender, and his presence and domination allowed Parker so much freedom on the pick and roll.

On a greater note the Cavs starting PG Larry Hughes (also their best defensive guard at the time) was injured and Parker got to pick apart a rookie Boobie Gibson and a washed up Erik Snow. Not so impressive once put into that context.

Id be very curious what Brons stats looked like when Duncan wasn't on the court. Id imagine they looked hideous

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 01:38 AM
PPG is not the end all be all deciding factor of who is a better player or had the greatest impact on a series.

Bruce Bowen did a good job of playing tough defense, but if Duncan wasn't there LeBron would have owned the Spurs. Duncan was by far the team's best defender, and his presence and domination allowed Parker so much freedom on the pick and roll.

On a greater note the Cavs starting PG Larry Hughes (also their best defensive guard at the time) was injured and Parker got to pick apart a rookie Boobie Gibson and a washed up Erik Snow. Not so impressive once put into that context.

Cavs had no answer for TP, he got to the rim at will and couldn't guard the P&R against him. He was basically unstoppable in those 4 games. Duncan really struggled against Varejao/Gooden/BigZ

Duncan's shooting percentage in that series: 44.6%

Parker's shooting percentage in that series: 56.8%

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 01:40 AM
Id be very curious what Brons stats looked like when Duncan wasn't on the court. Id imagine they looked hideous

Ya Bron shot 35.6% from the field, but that'll happen when you have Bowen guarding you and Duncan waiting inside.

Not saying Spurs couldn't win without Duncan, just saying that TP was the guy most difficult for the Cavs to guard. The Cavs big men did relatively well against Duncan holding him to below 45% from the field.

Raph12
10-09-2012, 01:45 AM
In accolades?... Yes, yes he does.

MetroMan
10-09-2012, 01:54 AM
if kobe wins 2 more chips people will still underrate him and talk bull

naps
10-09-2012, 01:59 AM
In terms of just a better resume? Probably. Better player? NO.

Chronz
10-09-2012, 02:18 AM
Ya Bron shot 35.6% from the field, but that'll happen when you have Bowen guarding you and Duncan waiting inside.

Not saying Spurs couldn't win without Duncan, just saying that TP was the guy most difficult for the Cavs to guard. The Cavs big men did relatively well against Duncan holding him to below 45% from the field.

yea but what do you think they looked like with Duncan on the court?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 02:38 AM
yea but what do you think they looked like with Duncan on the court?

Obviously Timmy made them a complete defensive team as he was the anchor. And maybe he did command attention for creating those wide open lanes for TP.

Give credit to Tony for playing well off of guys double teaming Duncan. He executed and capitalized well, and thus got that finals MVP.


That being said, a side question, do you think guys like Billups and TP should go to the Hall for their Finals MVPs?

Sadds The Gr8
10-09-2012, 02:40 AM
In terms of just a better resume? Probably. Better player? NO.

hell just froze over. I actually agree with you on something.

thenaj17
10-09-2012, 09:26 AM
He's already surpassed Hakeem, and to a degree Tim.

But yes, Shaq and Larry are next on the all-time list. Right now:


1. Michael
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Bill
5. Wilt
6. Larry
7. Shaquille
8. Kobe
9. Tim
10. Hakeem

1) How is Bill Russell ahead of Wilt? Wilt was clearly the better player with worse teammates.
2) In fact, how is Bill Russell actually even on this list? Don't give me 11 as your answer
3) Wilt shoudn't be as high as that, the league was just so much worse back then. Having seen footage of some late 70's games, that was bad enough so no wonder those 2 did so well

Greedy22
10-09-2012, 10:05 AM
kobe has had a better career than bird.


I think so as well.

Count me in on this one.

3RDASYSTEM
10-09-2012, 10:20 AM
ANDREW32 they cant use KOBE's 3rd yr of going against an 'ELITE' guard in FINALS matchup

he was backing up EDDIE/NICKIE V but he did avg a nice 19ppg that 3rd yr in league, a nice improvement from 7ppg and 15ppg his first 2 seasons

its like we comparing a backup(KOBE) vs a true franchise player(SHAQ)? and now we have to use 'longevity' to hold up a argument for KOBE but it was SHAQ who played for like 19yrs also

and i dont care if he fell off or was a ring chaser he was putting up 18 and 9 at damn near 40 in PHX..now go get a big man who can do what he did after you claim he fell off from putting up basically 24ppg and 14rpg from day1/rookie yr

nobody is the same,father time gets us all..but SHAQ from 1992-08 is far far more of a dominant individual player than his backup sidekick turned starter/allstar

but since yall drafted him you might as well boost him up to fit your mental criteria

but he was a backup guard for yrs when he came in the league.....fact or hate?


since all i get called is a hater

if PIPPEN is a top 50 player of alltime as a 'sidekick' for 6 titles then KOBE is what top 25 player off alltime since he was only sidekick 3 out of 5 times?

putting a backup guard as a top 10 player ever is comedy and disrespectful

but a scoring version of PIPP(minus the passing/def) aint too bad at all of a career...they both avg 7ppg as rookies but KOBE is cleary superior in that catergory, 25ppg vs like 17ppg career wise...they both developed alongside JORDAN/SHAQ...they were never and never will be considered 'equal'... but only in LAKERLAND aka 'rank our drafted players above all and free agents/trades who come here and win only here are legendary''

KOBE's false alpha dog mentality(JORDAN clone) is such a facade, because im trying to figure out where it was from 96-99? it doesnt take that long to showcase or put your alpha dog/the man imprint on your team....especially if you're the ''franchise player''

or was EDDIE the 'franchise'

or was NICK the 'franchise'

we all know SHAQ was the 'franchise' ..they shelled out 136mil for his 'franchise/dominant' individual game, or did they sign him to backup ELDEN/KERSEY for 3yrs?

KOBE is the JETER of the NBA, nothing more nothing less

top 8 of alltime? its like saying JETER is a top 8-10 player of alltime, sure he has a 'very long' resume ala KOBE ..but no way in world is he top 8-10 ever, no way no way and i think JETER is a good player just like KOBE is

i always based a players rank on his actual 'game' and his team impact and the way a defense gameplan for that typical player from day1, like how defenses gameplanned for WILT/JORDAN/SHAQ/IVERSON/BRON/DUNCAN type...KOBE never got JORDAN rules thrown at him, he's gotten his fair share of doubles but any allstar player sees that

KOBE never transcended anything, he took and played like somebody else and people say its the closest we've seen to JORDAN ..well no **** sherlock hes playing exactly like the man and getting props for it.....pure ****ing comedy from actual players perspective

how can a backup guard transcend anything?

oh wait he did with that incredible work ethic style he developed since he was backing up 3 players when he entered LAKERLAND?

i can tell none of you guys play bball/sports because thats the only thing a backup player in any sport could do was outwork/grind to overrcome his shortcomings or trying to over throw those players in front of you,its common sports sense for those who dont know that

it really works like that in every facet of life, not just sports

but i get it, his work ethic is 2nd to none

i wonder why?

could it be he was a backup guard?

of course

i couldnt imagine BRON/IVERSON backing up a CEDRIC CEBALLOS or NICKY V type, no way no how no shape no form, just pure sports comedy

but KOBE does it and he gets top 8 player ever recognition..only in LAKERLAND

his resume is up there as one of bests from 96-2012)

but his actual game? he was riding pine for his actual regular season team but starting as shooting guard in allstar games, what a bunch of ****ing hype

JasonJohnHorn
10-09-2012, 10:27 AM
That's fine and all, but once again, all-time rankings are based on the whole body of work. Stats, type of player you were, your prime, awards, clutch, performance in the big moments, championships, records etc.

Bird was a better rebounder and passer, but Kobe was just the better flat out scorer and defensive player. Why leave that out?

Kobe was a better one-on-one defender, Bird was a better team defender.


As for Kobe being a better scorer...:facepalm: Just because he scored more doesn't mean he was a better scorer. Mike James posted a better single-season scoring average than Rip Hamilton ever did, does that make Mike James a better scorer? Bird was almost .500 from the floor for his career. He was 37% for his career from behind the arc (and several times posted over 40%) and he was 88% from the free throw line (several times posting over 90% from behind the line). All better percentages than Kobe. Kobe took more shots. It doesn't mean he was better at scoring, it just means he took more shots. If Bird had ever been on a team as bad as the 05/06 Lakers, he would have posted number better than Kobe. Kobe IS NOT a better scorer than Bird, just like he is NOT a better scorer than Durant. Kobe lead the league in FG attempted last year, but did NOT lead the league in scoring. That says something about hwo good a scorer Kobe is.

C-Style
10-09-2012, 10:40 AM
God!!! i regret even making this thread, some of the opinions on here are not even faceplam worthy

thenaj17
10-09-2012, 10:45 AM
ANDREW32 they cant use KOBE's 3rd yr of going against an 'ELITE' guard in FINALS matchup

he was backing up EDDIE/NICKIE V but he did avg a nice 19ppg that 3rd yr in league, a nice improvement from 7ppg and 15ppg his first 2 seasons

its like we comparing a backup(KOBE) vs a true franchise player(SHAQ)? and now we have to use 'longevity' to hold up a argument for KOBE but it was SHAQ who played for like 19yrs also

and i dont care if he fell off or was a ring chaser he was putting up 18 and 9 at damn near 40 in PHX..now go get a big man who can do what he did after you claim he fell off from putting up basically 24ppg and 14rpg from day1/rookie yr

nobody is the same,father time gets us all..but SHAQ from 1992-08 is far far more of a dominant individual player than his backup sidekick turned starter/allstar

but since yall drafted him you might as well boost him up to fit your mental criteria

but he was a backup guard for yrs when he came in the league.....fact or hate?


since all i get called is a hater

if PIPPEN is a top 50 player of alltime as a 'sidekick' for 6 titles then KOBE is what top 25 player off alltime since he was only sidekick 3 out of 5 times?

putting a backup guard as a top 10 player ever is comedy and disrespectful

but a scoring version of PIPP(minus the passing/def) aint too bad at all of a career...they both avg 7ppg as rookies but KOBE is cleary superior in that catergory, 25ppg vs like 17ppg career wise...they both developed alongside JORDAN/SHAQ...they were never and never will be considered 'equal'... but only in LAKERLAND aka 'rank our drafted players above all and free agents/trades who come here and win only here are legendary''

KOBE's false alpha dog mentality(JORDAN clone) is such a facade, because im trying to figure out where it was from 96-99? it doesnt take that long to showcase or put your alpha dog/the man imprint on your team....especially if you're the ''franchise player''

or was EDDIE the 'franchise'

or was NICK the 'franchise'

we all know SHAQ was the 'franchise' ..they shelled out 136mil for his 'franchise/dominant' individual game, or did they sign him to backup ELDEN/KERSEY for 3yrs?

KOBE is the JETER of the NBA, nothing more nothing less

top 8 of alltime? its like saying JETER is a top 8-10 player of alltime, sure he has a 'very long' resume ala KOBE ..but no way in world is he top 8-10 ever, no way no way and i think JETER is a good player just like KOBE is

i always based a players rank on his actual 'game' and his team impact and the way a defense gameplan for that typical player from day1, like how defenses gameplanned for WILT/JORDAN/SHAQ/IVERSON/BRON/DUNCAN type...KOBE never got JORDAN rules thrown at him, he's gotten his fair share of doubles but any allstar player sees that

KOBE never transcended anything, he took and played like somebody else and people say its the closest we've seen to JORDAN ..well no **** sherlock hes playing exactly like the man and getting props for it.....pure ****ing comedy from actual players perspective

how can a backup guard transcend anything?

oh wait he did with that incredible work ethic style he developed since he was backing up 3 players when he entered LAKERLAND?

i can tell none of you guys play bball/sports because thats the only thing a backup player in any sport could do was outwork/grind to overrcome his shortcomings or trying to over throw those players in front of you,its common sports sense for those who dont know that

it really works like that in every facet of life, not just sports

but i get it, his work ethic is 2nd to none

i wonder why?

could it be he was a backup guard?

of course

i couldnt imagine BRON/IVERSON backing up a CEDRIC CEBALLOS or NICKY V type, no way no how no shape no form, just pure sports comedy

but KOBE does it and he gets top 8 player ever recognition..only in LAKERLAND

his resume is up there as one of bests from 96-2012)

but his actual game? he was riding pine for his actual regular season team but starting as shooting guard in allstar games, what a bunch of ****ing hype

This is not clear reasoning at all. I don't agree with what JasonJohnHorn is saying either but at least he puts up a good argument. Yours is full of pure hate and would say anything to discredit Kobe.

Kobe was a backup for 1 season only due to coming out of High school without the massive reputation others garnered coming from HS. 2nd season he started most on the bench but played 26mpg, so played a significant role. 3rd year onwards, he's been a starter.

Kobe may not be top 5 but no way is he lower than 10. In terms of talent, how does 81 points grab you?
Don't pretend coaches didn't gameplan for Kobe, that is just pure ignorance. Why did the majority of Gm's vote Kobe as the league best player for several years, the most clutch etc..

The fact he worked as hard as anyone shouldn't count against him. It should be a good thing and Shaq should be knocked down for not making the most of his ability by being lazy.

Come with a better argument next time with some intelligent input.

C-Style
10-09-2012, 10:48 AM
I thought Andrew32, jams were dumbasses until i read 3RDAYSYSTEM post. I can't believe ppl that stupid really excist. If that's our future we are screwed

heattiltheend94
10-09-2012, 11:23 AM
I think he passed Duncan and Bird honestly, but he'd have to get another MVP, Ring, and Finals MVP to pass Hakeem and Shaq

RLundi
10-09-2012, 11:25 AM
I thought Andrew32, jams were dumbasses until i read 3RDAYSYSTEM post. I can't believe ppl that stupid really excist. If that's our future we are screwed

Irony at its finest.

RaiderLakersA's
10-09-2012, 11:32 AM
God!!! i regret even making this thread, some of the opinions on here are not even faceplam worthy

You have to consider the topic and environment when planning a discussion. Posting about anything Kobe related in PSD is just asking for extremely insipid responses.

SirSkyHook
10-09-2012, 11:35 AM
This is funny.

If Kobe has 8 Finals showings 6 rings and 3 Finals MVP's with a career average of 25+pts 5+rebs and around 5 assists he isnt in the top 5

but...

If Lebron has 4 Finals showing 2 ring and 2 Finals MVP with a career average of 27+ points 7+rebs and around 7 assists is in the discussion with Jordan for #1

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Id take 4 more Final showings, 4 more rings, and 1 more Finals MVP's over +2pts, +2rebs, and +2 asts more anyday lol but but but but advance stat says :facepalm:

If Kobe gets the above mentioned he has to be top five or your blinded by Hate.

JordansBulls
10-09-2012, 11:41 AM
Use this as a gauge

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

He was listed ahead of Hakeem and Duncan on our list, so who does he surpass after that?

dh144498
10-09-2012, 01:28 PM
Kobe's already ahead of Hakeem and Duncan.

dh144498
10-09-2012, 01:31 PM
I thought Andrew32, jams were dumbasses until i read 3RDAYSYSTEM post. I can't believe ppl that stupid really excist. If that's our future we are screwed

U also think Hakeem and a few others have better careers than Kobe. :rolleyes:

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 01:48 PM
if kobe wins 2 more chips people will still underrate him and talk bull

This. Same **** different year!

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 01:52 PM
I think he passed Duncan and Bird honestly, but he'd have to get another MVP, Ring, and Finals MVP to pass Hakeem and Shaq

Why shaq only won 1 MVP as well? Hakeem he's already passed him Hakeem at best is #9 imo

Lake_Show2416
10-09-2012, 01:53 PM
Use this as a gauge

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

He was listed ahead of Hakeem and Duncan on our list, so who does he surpass after that?

Yup, Shaq, keep an eye out over ur shoulder cuz Kobe is coming fast

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 01:54 PM
Use this as a gauge

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

He was listed ahead of Hakeem and Duncan on our list, so who does he surpass after that?

Kobe can and will finish anywhere from #5 to #3 all-time IMO and the greatest Laker ever

Lakersfanla24
10-09-2012, 02:02 PM
@Andrew32 Your hate for kobe is blatantly obvious in everything you post on any subject involving the lakers, its rather sickening. Oh and how does Shaq's D**K taste? To say that Kobe wont pass Shaq with 1-2 more rings/finals MVP's is ridiculous. and whats that BS about Kobe only having 4-6 superstar seasons? Kobe has been playing at a superstar level for roughly 12 years, through injuries, something your great shaq would never do. *cough* Toe Injury* Cough*

Lakersfanla24
10-09-2012, 02:02 PM
Kobe can and will finish anywhere from #5 to #3 all-time IMO and the greatest Laker ever

This

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 02:03 PM
@Andrew32 Your hate for kobe is blatantly obvious in everything you post on any subject involving the lakers, its rather sickening. Oh and how does Shaq's D**K taste? To say that Kobe wont pass Shaq with 1-2 more rings/finals MVP's is ridiculous. and whats that BS about Kobe only having 4-6 superstar seasons? Kobe has been playing at a superstar level for roughly 12 years, through injuries, something your great shaq would never do. *cough* Toe Injury* Cough*

:clap:

bluefire7002
10-09-2012, 02:22 PM
I thought Andrew32, jams were dumbasses until i read 3RDAYSYSTEM post. I can't believe ppl that stupid really excist. If that's our future we are screwed

+1
LOL at Kobe being a backup

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 02:28 PM
If I remember correctly you rank Bird pretty high and had him in your top 5 all-time at one point. I am certain Kobe isn't in your top 5 so.. did you change your stance on Bird?

I changed my stance on Bird over the past 2 years. I once had him top 5. I slid him down a few spots. I think Kobe is a spot above him, around 8.

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 02:30 PM
Kobe is top 7-9 range right now. I don't really think he can go much higher. Maybe top 5 but he would need to win it all again.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 02:32 PM
Kobe is top 7-9 range right now. I don't really think he can go much higher. Maybe top 5 but he would need to win it all again.

He would need to find the fountain of youth while doing so. Kobe is at a stage where his ranking just isn't moving for me. He isn't the player he once was, so why should we just rank him higher if and when his loaded team wins a chip? That doesn't work for me. That being said, if he has a fall off a cliff decline this year, I am not moving him down either. His peak is what holds him back from joining the top 5-6 ever imo. But his career, resume, longevity, and length of dominance just can't be ignored.

ztilzer31
10-09-2012, 02:32 PM
Kobe would have to have a ridiculous finals this year to pass Shaq (if the Lakers make it). It's like when Shaq left town they became Kobes titles. People forget that Shaq was one of the best clutch performers of his time.

mngopher35
10-09-2012, 02:52 PM
He would need to find the fountain of youth while doing so. Kobe is at a stage where his ranking just isn't moving for me. He isn't the player he once was, so why should we just rank him higher if and when his loaded team wins a chip? That doesn't work for me. That being said, if he has a fall off a cliff decline this year, I am not moving him down either. His peak is what holds him back from joining the top 5-6 ever imo. But his career, resume, longevity, and length of dominance just can't be ignored.

Pretty much this. I dont see how another ring alone puts him over anyone at this point with the team he has. You have to look at context every year, yes if the lakers win kobe has 6 rings, but its very likely he would only have 2 fmvps. That said if the op is saying that kobe has a more efficient year than last year playing solid ball and has a great playoffs leading to a fmvp then I could see him moving very close to top 5 territory (with some people putting him in). Personally I have him at 7-8 all time right now and dont expect that to change unless as hawkeye said kobe finds the fountain of youth.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 02:56 PM
Kobe would have to have a ridiculous finals this year to pass Shaq (if the Lakers make it). It's like when Shaq left town they became Kobes titles. People forget that Shaq was one of the best clutch performers of his time.

:eyebrow:

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 02:56 PM
He would need to find the fountain of youth while doing so. Kobe is at a stage where his ranking just isn't moving for me. He isn't the player he once was, so why should we just rank him higher if and when his loaded team wins a chip? That doesn't work for me. That being said, if he has a fall off a cliff decline this year, I am not moving him down either. His peak is what holds him back from joining the top 5-6 ever imo. But his career, resume, longevity, and length of dominance just can't be ignored.

I can agree with this. I have him at number 9 right now behind Duncan I don't believe he will move but I feel like if he can win the championship and average his normal 25 then I would consider moving him up. I don't believe he will, Im one of the people that didn't think he was amazing last year. I don't like inefficent scoring (how ironic Im a melo fan :laugh2:) and just feel like while he was good he wasn't great last year.

naps
10-09-2012, 03:00 PM
Kobe was a better one-on-one defender, Bird was a better team defender.


As for Kobe being a better scorer...:facepalm: Just because he scored more doesn't mean he was a better scorer. Mike James posted a better single-season scoring average than Rip Hamilton ever did, does that make Mike James a better scorer? Bird was almost .500 from the floor for his career. He was 37% for his career from behind the arc (and several times posted over 40%) and he was 88% from the free throw line (several times posting over 90% from behind the line). All better percentages than Kobe. Kobe took more shots. It doesn't mean he was better at scoring, it just means he took more shots. If Bird had ever been on a team as bad as the 05/06 Lakers, he would have posted number better than Kobe. Kobe IS NOT a better scorer than Bird, just like he is NOT a better scorer than Durant. Kobe lead the league in FG attempted last year, but did NOT lead the league in scoring. That says something about hwo good a scorer Kobe is.

Agreed 100%. How is Kobe a flat out better scorer than Bird is beyond reality and facts.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 03:00 PM
I can agree with this. I have him at number 7 right now behind Shaq. I don't believe he will move but I feel like if he can win the championship and average his normal 25 then I would consider moving him up. I don't believe he will, Im one of the people that didn't think he was amazing last year. I don't like inefficent scoring (how ironic Im a melo fan :laugh2:) and just feel like while he was good he wasn't great last year.

Kobe can average whatever he likes, its how he does it, where is his defense, and is he clearly the best player on the floor? That is the only way he moves up. I can't imagine, at his age and with his miles, that is going to happen.

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 03:02 PM
Kobe can average whatever he likes, its how he does it, where is his defense, and is he clearly the best player on the floor? That is the only way he moves up. I can't imagine, at his age and with his miles, that is going to happen.

His defense is def not what it used to be but Id still say he is above average on that side of the ball. His days as the best player on the floor are over I agree.

Andrew32
10-09-2012, 03:04 PM
:eyebrow:

Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons

1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3
________________________________


00 CNFinalz VS Portland 4QScoring

Shaq
G1 : 16 ||| 2AST --- FT = 12/25
G2 : 14 ||| --- (5-6 | FT = 4/10)
G3 : 5 ||| --- FT = 1/1
G4 : 10 ||| 1AST --- (2-4 | FT = 6/6)
G5 : 6 ||| --- (2-2 | FT = 2/5)
G6 : 4 ||| 3AST --- FT = 1/1
G7 : 9 ||| 1AST --- (3-3 | FT = 3/4)
Combined : 64 / 9.14ppg

Kobe
G1 : 0
G2 : 0 ||| 1AST
G3 : 5 ||| 1AST
G4 : 2 ||| ( 0-2 0-1 | FT = 2-2 )
G5 : 4 ||| ( 1-2 0-1 | FT = 2-3)
G6 : 12 ||| 1AST (4-8 4-6 | FT = 0-2)
G7 : 9 ||| 1AST (3-6 0-1 | FT = 3-6)
Combined : 32 / 4.57 ppg

________________________________

00 Finalz VS Indiana 4QScoring

Shaq
G1 : 12 --- FT = 0/1
G2 : 17 --- FT = 9/15
G3 : 7 ----- FT = 1/7
G4 : 16 --- FT = 6/11
G5 : 6 ----- FT = 0/0
G6 : 13 --- FT = 1/7
Combined : 71 / 11.83 ppg --- FT = 17/41

Kobe
G1 : 2
G2 : 0
G3 : 0
G4 : 12
G5 : 0
G6 : 8
Combined : 22 / 3.67 ppg
________________________________________

01 Semi-Finalz VS SAC 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 13
G2: 12
G3:
G4: 7 --- FT = 3/5
*** Combined : 32 / 10.67ppg

Kobe
G1: 4
G2: 4
G3:
G4: 15
***Combined : 23 / 7.67ppg
__________________________________________

02 First-Round VS POR 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 6
G2: 8
G3: 8
Combined : 22 / 7.3ppg

Kobe
G1: 8
G2: 1
G3: 6
Combined : 15 / 5ppg
_________________________________

02 CNFinalz VS SAC 4QScoring

Shaq
G6: 12
G7 + OT : 15

Kobe
G6: 11
G7 + 0T : 6
_________________________________


Shaq led the 00-02 Lakers in 4thQ playoff scoring and in totals games/series "closed" not that that term really mean anything since 1stQ scoring is just as valuable as 4thQ scoring.

Shaq was one of the greatest 4thQ scorers in the history of the game even though he was a relatively poor choice for a last second shot.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 03:09 PM
Kobe is right now #8 behind MJ,Magic,Kareem,Russell,Wilt,Bird,Shaq and right ahead of Duncan,Hakeem to round out the top 10.

To surpass Shaq and Larry, this next title that he wins has to be in such style, fashion and force, that not even his doubters can refute it. And if he's blessed enough to win a 7th title, he'll surpass Wilt in my books to finish Top 5 all-time. That 7th title will also mean the 18th title for the Lakers, surpassing the Celtics.


Think about it, if the Lakers are able to surpass the Celtics under Kobe Bryant's watch, and Kobe fulfills Dr. Jerry Buss' life long dream of surpassing the Celtics before he passes away, that is a legendary achievement.


Think about it. The Minneapolis Lakers got off to an early 5-0 lead over the Celtics with George Mikan running the show.


Then the Celtics won 11, and 7 of those were against the Jerry West's Lakers.

Celtics 11, Lakers 5

The Lakers won their title in 72, and the Celtics won 2 more titles in 74 and 76.


Celtics 13, Lakers 6

So when Magic became a Laker, he had a 7 title deficit to work with. (Magic 5, Bird 3, with Magic winning the head2head battle 2-1)


Celtics 16, Lakers 11 (5 title deficit)



The Shaq-Kobe Lakers 3peated


Celtics 16, Lakers 14


And then h2h with Kobe leading the way, both franchises tied at 1 apiece, but if Kobe's Lakers were to win 4 (they've won 2 already) and the Celtics with their lone title in 2008.


Final count when Kobe retires is:

Lakers 18, Celtics 17



That's what I want to see happen before Kobe hangs em up. To surpass those damn icky nasty green leprechauns. :mad:

jerellh528
10-09-2012, 03:10 PM
I think kobe's accolades/resume is probably the only thing actually holding him back from top 5 all time on the contrary of what you all say. Because in terms of talent, skill and being an actual basketball player. Kobe ranks top 5 for me, I can't really think of 5 players more skilled and talented from a basketball perspective, I actually only count 1 or 2, but ill say 5 anyway.

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 03:10 PM
Am I the only one that has Tim Duncan ahead of Kobe?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 03:12 PM
I think kobe's accolades/resume is probably the only thing actually holding him back from top 5 all time on the contrary of what you all say. Because in terms of talent, skill and being an actual basketball player. Kobe ranks top 5 for me, I can't really think of 5 players more skilled and talented from a basketball perspective, I actually only count 1 or 2, but ill say 5 anyway.

TS%, WinShares, PER yo!

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 03:12 PM
Am I the only one that has Tim Duncan ahead of Kobe?

If you do, tell me what Timmy has done since 07? (05 really if you want to talk Finals MVPS as Parker dominated the Cavs in the 07 finals while BigZ/Varejao/Gooden gave TD a run for his money, especially in games 3 and 4 in Cleveland when Duncan's pt totals were 13 and 12. 2007 Finals Duncan was very similar to 2006 Finals Shaq w/ the Heat)

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 03:14 PM
If you do, tell me what Timmy has done since 07? (05 really if you want to talk Finals MVPS as Parker dominated the Cavs in the 07 finals while BigZ/Varejao/Gooden gave TD a run for his money, especially in games 3 and 4 in Cleveland when Duncan's pt totals were 13 and 12. 2007 Finals Duncan was very similar to 2006 Finals Shaq w/ the Heat)

I see finals is all that matters okay.

Andrew32
10-09-2012, 03:15 PM
2007 Finals Duncan was very similar to 2006 Finals Shaq w/ the Heat)

In the first 3 Heat wins against Dallas in the 2006 Finals Shaq averaged
18 / 12 / 3apg / 2bpg on 69% shooting.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 03:16 PM
I see finals is all that matters okay.

Well, what has TImmy done anything of significance in the last 5 regular seasons that's so "eye-popping". It's been more so Pop's System and accelerated pace on offense, the rise of role players and Tony Parker becoming a top 15 player in the league that the Spurs have been so dominant really in the last 2 regular seasons with TD and Manu aging and hurt for a great majority of all of that.

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 03:18 PM
Well, what has TImmy done anything of significance in the last 5 regular seasons that's so "eye-popping". It's been more so Pop's System and accelerated pace on offense, the rise of role players and Tony Parker becoming a top 15 player in the league that the Spurs have been so dominant really in the last 2 regular seasons with TD and Manu aging and hurt for a great majority of all of that.

Well he is still a very good player. Timmy is still a double double machine, and a very good defender. I think Duncan is better then Kobe right now all time.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 03:18 PM
In the first 3 Heat wins against Dallas in the 2006 Finals Shaq averaged
18 / 12 / 3apg / 2bpg on 69% shooting.

Okay so? TD averaged a double double as well. Don't know the rebounding numbers, but in those 4 games of the 07 finals, he averaged 18 PPG with scoring games of 24, 23, 13, 12.

Not sure what you're trying to prove here.

Andrew32
10-09-2012, 03:19 PM
Well, what has TImmy done anything of significance in the last 5 seasons that's so "eye-popping".

Duncan from 08-10 in the playoffs
20 / 12 / 3apg / 2bpg

Doesn't look so bad to me.
Lots of people ranked Duncan > Kobe in 2007 also btw based on his playoff run.

Duncan was arguably more impactful/valuable to his team last year also despite Kobe putting up more impressive raw stats.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 03:20 PM
Well he is still a very good player. Timmy is still a double double machine, and a very good defender. I think Duncan is better then Kobe right now all time.

If he was putting up a consistent 20+ pts and 11+ rebounds per game, then I said yes.


FYI: By no means am I trying to devalue TD's importance and stature. Too much respect for him. If you want to put him above Kobe in the all-time rankings, I respect that.

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 03:21 PM
If he was putting up a consistent 20+ pts and 11+ rebounds per game, then I said yes.


FYI: By no means am I trying to devalue TD's importance and stature. Too much respect for him. If you want to put him above Kobe in the all-time rankings, I respect that.

Oh I get what you mean. It is very close IMO, I guess it comes down to me being a huge Duncan fan. Its not like Im going to rip anybody for having Kobe ahead of Timmy, Im sure most people do.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 03:24 PM
If you do, tell me what Timmy has done since 07? (05 really if you want to talk Finals MVPS as Parker dominated the Cavs in the 07 finals while BigZ/Varejao/Gooden gave TD a run for his money, especially in games 3 and 4 in Cleveland when Duncan's pt totals were 13 and 12. 2007 Finals Duncan was very similar to 2006 Finals Shaq w/ the Heat)

Until 10-11', Duncan was still an ELITE level player. On both sides of the ball. Factor in that Duncan was probably the better player from the time he came in until 07', and the decline years for both guys just don't have enough weight to move Kobe ahead of Tim.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 03:27 PM
even after all these years, and Duncan's decline setting in, he has a higher career PER, more win shares, WS/48 better, drone level consistency, and is just not moving from ahead of Kobe for me.

jayjay33
10-09-2012, 03:27 PM
You're wasting your time with excuses.
Let me make this simple for you so you can understand

If you compare Shaq and Kobe over their best 5-13 years in the playoffs.
Shaq absolutely ANNIHLATES Kobe in terms of production / actual performances, impact and consistency.

He has about 10-12 Super-Star level seasons where Kobe has about 4-6.

If Kobe ends up having 1-2 more All-Star level seasons on the whole do you really think that would make up for the MASSIVE and absolutely enormous difference in the quality between their Peak / Prime's and the majority of their careers?

It's just not logical.
Shaq's playoff career is pretty similar in value to Jordan's

He was one of the best 3 playoff performers in the history of the game and the GOAT Finals performer.

Also quit your bulls*** excuses.
Kobe was never the MVP in the early 00's.

He wasn't even better then Prime Pippen in 00 and 02 and you wanna argue he was equal/better then Shaq?

00 Kobe = 21 / 4.5 / 4.5apg on 51%TS
02 Kobe = 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 52%TS
92 Pippen = 20 / 9 / 7apg on 54%TS (with way better defensive impact).

Also Shaq lost in the 95 Finals because his supporting cast got outplayed.
In his 3rd year he practically played Peak Hakeem to a wash and had an absolutely incredible Finals performance.

Shaq outplayed Hakeem on the whole in their h2h matchups from 93-95 and dominated Prime Hakeem in 96 and 97.

So in 17 yrs kobe has only been at super star level for about 4-6. So he will end up only being a super star for about maybe 25% percent of his career. Your clearly WAY to bias to make any kind of rationale assessment. Even Kobe haters aren't that crazy.

mngopher35
10-09-2012, 03:32 PM
I see finals is all that matters okay.

If that were true then everyone would have Duncan over Kobe, Duncan has played better in the finals through his career than kobe has.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 03:43 PM
If that were true then everyone would have Duncan over Kobe, Duncan has played better in the finals through his career than kobe has.

Duncan's playoff numbers are better than Kobe's, true.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 03:51 PM
Kobe would have to have a ridiculous finals this year to pass Shaq (if the Lakers make it). It's like when Shaq left town they became Kobes titles. People forget that Shaq was one of the best clutch performers of his time.

Shaq and clutch don't go along lol Kobe has already pased shaq admit it my friends

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 03:53 PM
Shaq and clutch don't go along lol Kobe has already pased shaq admit it my friends

No. Wrong Shaq>Kobe

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 03:54 PM
I think kobe's accolades/resume is probably the only thing actually holding him back from top 5 all time on the contrary of what you all say. Because in terms of talent, skill and being an actual basketball player. Kobe ranks top 5 for me, I can't really think of 5 players more skilled and talented from a basketball perspective, I actually only count 1 or 2, but ill say 5 anyway.

I agree with this!! Too bad so many people have agendas vs certain players... How can a player not move up if he wins another title? But Lebron can if he wins a 2nd or wade if he wins a 3rd lmfao haters

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-09-2012, 03:58 PM
I agree with this!! Too bad so many people have agendas vs certain players... How can a player not move up if he wins another title? But Lebron can if he wins a 2nd or wade if he wins a 3rd lmfao haters

It's the fact that LeBron is at his peak and so that's why he would move up if he wins a title. Many don't view Kobe at his peak anymore, but rather towards the end of his career, but still a top 5-7 player in the league.


Wade is one of those unrankable players where if you had to put him somewhere, maybe 25-30 all time at best, because his stature, game, persona etc. don't really stick out when you view the game 15, 20, 25 yrs down the line. And his value goes down now that LEBron has basically joined the team the last 2 yrs and has taken the reigns of the Heat franchise away from him. Wade is good, but he's not in the discussion of Top 10 or top 15 or in the discussions of the greatest of all time. He'll probably finish the 4th best shooting guard ever behind MJ, Kobe and West, even if he wins 1 or 2 more titles. But that's it.

Andrew32
10-09-2012, 04:03 PM
So in 17 yrs kobe has only been at super star level for about 4-6. Even Kobe haters aren't that crazy.

Kobe was injured in 03/05.

Outside of that he only had Super-Star level impact in 01 + 06-09.
2010 is the only other year that is debatable.

So yeah we are looking at 6 years maximum.

Depends how you define Super-Star I guess.
I don't think Kobe's Production <> Impact in the other years I didn't list was that of a Super-Star.

All-Star yes, Super-Star no.

jam
10-09-2012, 04:04 PM
How can a player not move up if he wins another title? But Lebron can if he wins a 2nd or wade if he wins a 3rd lmfao haters

It's because Bryant:

a. will not have the same credentials as those with six rings (or more): Russell, Kareem, Jordan. He will never be regarded as the greatest defender of all time, nor will he become the greatest scorer of all time, nor will he have won 10 scoring titles along with 6 finals mvp's.

b. did not revolutionize his position in the way that Magic Johnson did.

c. did not display the all around excellence of a Larry Bird.

d. shot poorly in the finals throughout his career, unlike Hakeem and Duncan.

e. averaged 20 ppg in his first 3 championships to Shaq's 36 ppg.

There is a huge gulf between Kobe, who scores at a high rate, but is inefficient and inconsistent, and the players he's being compared to when it matters most, ie in the finals.

It is extremely difficult for a guard to shoot a high percentage consistently; Kobe has done that in the regular season, but not in the finals.

The bottom line is that Kobe is not clearly better than any of the players he is compared with--while he has elevated his game in certain playoff games, he has not been consistently excellent in the finals.

Kobe is without question one of the top dozen players all time and almost certainly top 10. But Kobe's legacy is one of a superior #2 option and an inconsistent but nonetheless highly effective #1 option. This is why there is much debate as to whether he truly belongs among the "elite eight."

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry
7. Shaq

8/9/10/11: Duncan/Hakeem/Kobe?? The final order is yet to be determined. LeBron will likely be in that mix if he can win another ring.

seikou8
10-09-2012, 04:16 PM
I agree with this!! Too bad so many people have agendas vs certain players... How can a player not move up if he wins another title? But Lebron can if he wins a 2nd or wade if he wins a 3rd lmfao haters

and you lakers/kobe fans have a agenda for to be named goat

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-09-2012, 04:18 PM
he would have a case..

jam
10-09-2012, 04:20 PM
and you lakers/kobe fans have a agenda for to be named goat

Even Kobe realizes it's unrealistic for him to be considered GOAT. He does want a sixth ring very badly, however.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 04:38 PM
I think kobe's accolades/resume is probably the only thing actually holding him back from top 5 all time on the contrary of what you all say. Because in terms of talent, skill and being an actual basketball player. Kobe ranks top 5 for me, I can't really think of 5 players more skilled and talented from a basketball perspective, I actually only count 1 or 2, but ill say 5 anyway.

See, most, including me, have it exactly the other way around.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 04:45 PM
and you lakers/kobe fans have a agenda for to be named goat

No we don't nobody here has said Kobe is the best ever we have said he will finish in the top 5, two totally different things that's the only thing I neer liked about Psd people rank players differently depending on who they like better

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 04:48 PM
He really doesn't have much of a chance at top 5. I think he can get to 7.

mngopher35
10-09-2012, 04:55 PM
See, most, including me, have it exactly the other way around.

Agreed, if we are talking about peak play then Kobe probably wouldnt be top 10 in my book. His accolades, awards, and longevity are what bring him into the top 10 greats. I would choose many players peak over kobes: jordan, wilt, kareem, shaq, magic, Bird, duncan, hakeem, id even take lebron last year over any peak kobe year. I dont know how anyone can think his accolades and awards hold him back?

jam
10-09-2012, 04:57 PM
LA vs OKC will be very interesting. Wily veterans vs. young legs.

If LA can make it past OKC, they'll face the heat, another fun matchup. The heat have no answer for dwight, but the lakers can't guard LeBron or a healthy Wade.

jayjay33
10-09-2012, 05:53 PM
Kobe was injured in 03/05.

Outside of that he only had Super-Star level impact in 01 + 06-09.
2010 is the only other year that is debatable.

So yeah we are looking at 6 years maximum.

Depends how you define Super-Star I guess.
I don't think Kobe's Production <> Impact in the other years I didn't list was that of a Super-Star.

All-Star yes, Super-Star no.

Ok so 75% of his career he was just an allstar, so basicly when we look back at kobe career he was just an allstar level player. I dont see how that gets him in the top 25 let alone top ten.

Shaq has 4 chip's to kobe 5 , 1 mvp to kobe's 1, 8 all nba first team to kobe's 10 and NO all defensive first team's AT ALL to kobe's 9. So you I don't where this light and day IMPACT you keep talking about is. But Kobe has done more and done it longer. If kobe's just an allstar then so is fat lazy *** shaq.

Shaq kobe
overall Skill 1
Defense 1
rings 1
longevity 1
accolades 1
cltuchness 1
work ethic 1
health 1
BBall IQ 1

Kobe is clearly superior in all of these. But shaq is a better player and a super star and kobe's just an all star. You must be on crack. The only thing shaq has ever been better than kobe at is running his mouth.

xcrisisx
10-09-2012, 06:00 PM
being to 10 is not a shame
what does it matter whether he's 10 or 9 or 8 or...
would you fee better if he rised another spot?
he will never pass shaq, and if you say he will or allready has, you only started watching the nba since 2006 or later

jam
10-09-2012, 06:00 PM
Kobe is more skilled but Shaq has a much bigger impact on the game. Shaq was much more dominating than Kobe could ever dream of being.

Let's put it this way: league officials spent numerous summers figuring out how to call games so as to allow Shaq's opponents some semblance of a chance of guarding him. Whereas league officials were often very quick to call fouls on players guarding Kobe. In other words, league officials attempted to figure out how to allow opposing players to cheat on defense so that shaq would not completely embarrass the entire league.

To put it simply and bluntly, no one who is thinking rationally would ever pick Kobe over Shaq in their prime.

Even a well past his peak Shaq brought a ring to miami, and was runner up to ahem, Steve Nash in mvp voting.

I agree that Shaq under-achieved but it simply underscores the point that Shaq was an absolute beast and had the potential to be the no. 2 GOAT after MJ.


Ok so 75% of his career he was just an allstar, so basicly when we look back at kobe career he was just an allstar level player. I dont see how that gets him in the top 25 let alone top ten.

Shaq has 4 chip's to kobe 5 , 1 mvp to kobe's 1, 8 all nba first team to kobe's 10 and NO all defensive first team's AT ALL to kobe's 9. So you I don't where this light and day IMPACT you keep talking about is. But Kobe has done more and done it longer. If kobe's just an allstar then so is fat lazy *** shaq.

Shaq kobe
overall Skill 1
Defense 1
rings 1
longevity 1
accolades 1
cltuchness 1
work ethic 1
health 1
BBall IQ 1

Kobe is clearly superior in all of these. But shaq is a better player and a super star and kobe's just an all star. You must be on crack. The only thing shaq has ever been better than kobe at is running his mouth.

ClearSoulForce
10-09-2012, 06:02 PM
No...

No way in hell Kobe is better than Hakeem or Duncan. Kobe has had Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, and now Howard and Nash. Kobe's lucky his team gets stars year in year out.

Blackryder45
10-09-2012, 06:26 PM
1995 - MJ came back 65 games into the regular season and that Bulls team lost to Shaq's Magic in the Semis. If MJ never took time off, Hakeem would be without 1 or maybe even 2 rings and Shaq probably wouldn't have made a singles finals appearance in his tenure in Orlando. That's the only reason really why Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting, MJ would have bumped him down to 3rd.


Shaq was a superior finals performer against the likes of Smits, Big Smooth Sam Perkins, Dale Davis, Mutombo, Matt Geiger, Tod Maccollough, Aaron Williams, Ericka Dampier, Ben Wallace. (These are all the centers that Shaq went up against in the finals), but we all saw when he faced a real center in Hakeem in the 95 Finals. Shaq struggled against the Marquee West teams with foul trouble when he used to go up against Floppy Divac and the Twin Towers of Duncan & Robinson, and Kobe was basically the MVP of the first 3 rounds. You know it, everybody's momma knows it.

And Shaq had trouble closing games during those times. In come Kobe doing everything in the 4th and the dagger shooters like Shaw, Fish, Fox and Horry

THANK YOU

SOMEONE BEING REAL.
IF Kobe was not there, there would BE NO 3 PEAT LAKERS POINT BLANK.
Kobe took over in those san Antonio series and I rem our last championship of the three, I honestly though Kobe would get the Finals MVP.

People say o Kobe didnt do ******* before Shaq well ask yourself this.
What the hell did Shaq do before Kobe. Cause I rem Kobe was still in his early yrs when Shaq came and Shaq had been in the league for a while.

Kobe>>Shaq (Career). Hell even Shaq knows it

jayjay33
10-09-2012, 06:28 PM
No...

No way in hell Kobe is better than Hakeem or Duncan. Kobe has had Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, and now Howard and Nash. Kobe's lucky his team gets stars year in year out.

Do the names, SAM Cassell, Clyde Drexel, tony parker, Man Ginobili, David Robinson ring a bell? Maybe you'll recognize most of them at there HOF ceremony. lol :facepalm:

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 06:35 PM
Agreed, if we are talking about peak play then Kobe probably wouldnt be top 10 in my book. His accolades, awards, and longevity are what bring him into the top 10 greats. I would choose many players peak over kobes: jordan, wilt, kareem, shaq, magic, Bird, duncan, hakeem, id even take lebron last year over any peak kobe year. I dont know how anyone can think his accolades and awards hold him back?

Pretty much. If we stripped away all names, and just threw up the numbers for player all time, Kobe would probably not even be top 13-15. But when you start adding all the hardware, he slides straight up to top 7-8.

Blackryder45
10-09-2012, 06:37 PM
No...

No way in hell Kobe is better than Hakeem or Duncan. Kobe has had Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, and now Howard and Nash. Kobe's lucky his team gets stars year in year out.

Really dude, Every great had stars thats weak.
Example- Magic had Kareem(Kareem>>>Gasol>>), James Worthy, and so on

Jordan- Had pippen (the second best player in the league), Rodman (True defensive stopper and prolly top 5 rebounder ever) If you dont believe check the bulls out when Micheal left cause they were still balling

Duncan- Ginobli, Parker, Robinson (And just to let you know Robinson>>> Gasol)

Shaq- Kobe(Sometimes Kobe saved that 3 peat team), Wade (Dude Balling)

Bird- Do I even have to say?

So Kobe won a 2 peat with his second best player not as good as any of these guys second best player...... I give you a sec:confused::confused:

So ppl please stop with all the O Kobe had great players. Cause I dont rem Shaq winning or doing **** before Kobe. I rem those playoffs series Kobe took over the San antonio series.

STOP HATING AND GIVE THE MAN HIS CRED. He aint better or equal to Jordan but the man top 5 without a doubt, Even Jordan compares Kobe to himself lol all of you that put him below top 7 crazy

Andrew32
10-09-2012, 06:40 PM
So Kobe won a 2 peat with his second best player not as good as any of these guys second best player...... I give you a sec:confused::confused:
Hmm...

2009 Gasol : 19 / 11 / 2.5apg on 62%TS (22 PER) (.221 WSP48)
2000 Kobe : 21 / 4.5 / 4apg on 52%TS (19.3 PER) (.115 WSP48)

2010 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.5apg on 60%TS (24 PER) (.224 WSP48)
2002 Kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS (20.5 PER) (.148 WSP48)

(Not even gonna mention that Kobe had a 2nd All-Star level player in Lamar Odom coming off the bench)

JasonJohnHorn
10-09-2012, 06:40 PM
Am I the only one that has Tim Duncan ahead of Kobe?

I got Duncan ahead of Kobe. But I have a feeling I am in a minority ;-)

jayjay33
10-09-2012, 06:44 PM
Kobe is more skilled but Shaq has a much bigger impact on the game. Shaq was much more dominating than Kobe could ever dream of being.

Let's put it this way: league officials spent numerous summers figuring out how to call games so as to allow Shaq's opponents some semblance of a chance of guarding him. Whereas league officials were often very quick to call fouls on players guarding Kobe. In other words, league officials attempted to figure out how to allow opposing players to cheat on defense so that shaq would not completely embarrass the entire league.

To put it simply and bluntly, no one who is thinking rationally would ever pick Kobe over Shaq in their prime.
Even a well past his peak Shaq brought a ring to miami, and was runner up to ahem, Steve Nash in mvp voting.

I agree that Shaq under-achieved but it simply underscores the point that Shaq was an absolute beast and had the potential to be the no. 2 GOAT after MJ.

Except a rational thinker knows he cant cut out the bits and pieces of a career he likes and leave of the rest, it's the whole career. Based on what they did in there careers i will take Kobe's career over shaqs all day ever day. Plus shaq was not very dominate in the 20+ games a year he missed, was he? An that's not even counting he didn't play defense! You could replay there careers 100 times and everytime. Kobe's gonna give you more years, games, wins, rings and effort. Over there ENTIRE career Kobe has proven himself more far more skilled overall and also more accomplished.

jayjay33
10-09-2012, 06:52 PM
Hmm...

2009 Gasol : 19 / 11 / 2.5apg on 62%TS (22 PER) (.221 WSP48)
2000 Kobe : 21 / 4.5 / 4apg on 52%TS (19.3 PER) (.115 WSP48)

2010 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.5apg on 60%TS (24 PER) (.224 WSP48)
2002 Kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS (20.5 PER) (.148 WSP48)

(Not even gonna mention that Kobe had a 2nd All-Star level player in Lamar Odom coming off the bench)

Hmm who was finals MVP again? An how many All-Star games has lamar odom been to? Surley if he was a ALL- star level player he would have made a least 1. You want so badly to discredit kobe that your now comparing gasol and odom the drexler, robinson, parker and manu? really dude is thats what it's come to. Hell even Sam Cassell has more all-star games and all nba selections than odom. Man your going WAY over board. lol

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 07:00 PM
Hmm who was finals MVP again? An how many All-Star games has lamar odom been to? Surley if he was a ALL- star level player he would have made a least 1. You want so badly to discredit kobe that your now comparing gasol and odom the drexler, robinson, parker and manu? really dude is thats what it's come to. Hell even Sam Cassell has more all-star games and all nba selections than odom. Man your going WAY over board. lol

To be fair, ASG nods are many times a joke. Wallyworld has an ASG under his belt. Would anyone take him over Odom?

king4day
10-09-2012, 07:09 PM
While he's probably already established on where he stands in history, I think a season MVP would be the only thing that can move him ahead of anyone else at this stage.

Blackryder45
10-09-2012, 07:13 PM
Hmm...

2009 Gasol : 19 / 11 / 2.5apg on 62%TS (22 PER) (.221 WSP48)
2000 Kobe : 21 / 4.5 / 4apg on 52%TS (19.3 PER) (.115 WSP48)

2010 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.5apg on 60%TS (24 PER) (.224 WSP48)
2002 Kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS (20.5 PER) (.148 WSP48)

(Not even gonna mention that Kobe had a 2nd All-Star level player in Lamar Odom coming off the bench)

Scratch the stats are you telling me you would have Gasol over Robinson, pippen, Kareem, Wade,??? Gasol didn't even win a playoff game before Kobe all the guys I named at the top been in playoffs and winning without the star players

jayjay33
10-09-2012, 07:13 PM
To be fair, ASG nods are many times a joke. Wallyworld has an ASG under his belt. Would anyone take him over Odom?


An yet lamar odom has none....to be fair.

nyyfan4life
10-09-2012, 07:29 PM
Kobe will pass Bird on that list, if he hasn't already, but not the other 3.

jerellh528
10-09-2012, 07:45 PM
Agreed, if we are talking about peak play then Kobe probably wouldnt be top 10 in my book. His accolades, awards, and longevity are what bring him into the top 10 greats. I would choose many players peak over kobes: jordan, wilt, kareem, shaq, magic, Bird, duncan, hakeem, id even take lebron last year over any peak kobe year. I dont know how anyone can think his accolades and awards hold him back?

he doesnt have 11 rings, 6 fmvps, more than 1 mvp, more than 2 fmvps, etc...Thats what i meant by accolades hold him back from top 5 all time. Im talking from a strict basketball player, he is as skilled and talented as they come, a lot of the guys in the top 10 have the advantage of era, and size. There is not many players more skilled at basketball then kobe. I got jordan and magic as the only 2... Kobe could do it all, defense, shoot, post up, handles, pass, work ethic, IQ, mid range game...He just shouldered the load as a scorer for the majority of his career, as a complete player, theres not many better.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 07:47 PM
Ok so 75% of his career he was just an allstar, so basicly when we look back at kobe career he was just an allstar level player. I dont see how that gets him in the top 25 let alone top ten.

Shaq has 4 chip's to kobe 5 , 1 mvp to kobe's 1, 8 all nba first team to kobe's 10 and NO all defensive first team's AT ALL to kobe's 9. So you I don't where this light and day IMPACT you keep talking about is. But Kobe has done more and done it longer. If kobe's just an allstar then so is fat lazy *** shaq.

Shaq kobe
overall Skill 1
Defense 1
rings 1
longevity 1
accolades 1
cltuchness 1
work ethic 1
health 1
BBall IQ 1

Kobe is clearly superior in all of these. But shaq is a better player and a super star and kobe's just an all star. You must be on crack. The only thing shaq has ever been better than kobe at is running his mouth.

:clap:

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 07:48 PM
being to 10 is not a shame
what does it matter whether he's 10 or 9 or 8 or...
would you fee better if he rised another spot?
he will never pass shaq, and if you say he will or allready has, you only started watching the nba since 2006 or later

:facepalm:

Lol I love it when people say a certain play will never pass a certain player it's bs and as far as I know lots more people have Kobe over shaq and not the other way around, just not on psd(capital of Kobe and lbj hating)

TheNumber37
10-09-2012, 07:50 PM
If Kobe wins 1 more, he can get my Timmy D in my book, but still not pass Shaq, I don't think he gets up there. Maybe if he wins the next 2 back-to-back with dominant seasons and playoffs.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 07:52 PM
No...

No way in hell Kobe is better than Hakeem or Duncan. Kobe has had Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, and now Howard and Nash. Kobe's lucky his team gets stars year in year out.

Shaq never had stars? Kobe wade penny Nash Lebron?
Duncan? Robinson, ginobli, Parker etc.
Hakeem is the only one u can actually say Didnt have much help
And don't mention Bynum please he was basically non existent on both of the lakers titles so that's a mute point like I said so many people have agendas against Kobe smh

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 07:54 PM
Hmm...

2009 Gasol : 19 / 11 / 2.5apg on 62%TS (22 PER) (.221 WSP48)
2000 Kobe : 21 / 4.5 / 4apg on 52%TS (19.3 PER) (.115 WSP48)

2010 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.5apg on 60%TS (24 PER) (.224 WSP48)
2002 Kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS (20.5 PER) (.148 WSP48)

(Not even gonna mention that Kobe had a 2nd All-Star level player in Lamar Odom coming off the bench)

Lamar was never an all-star type player lol

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 07:56 PM
Kobe will pass Bird on that list, if he hasn't already, but not the other 3.

Bird>shaq,Duncan,Hakeem so Kobe has passed them all

C-Style
10-09-2012, 08:41 PM
Use this as a gauge

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

He was listed ahead of Hakeem and Duncan on our list, so who does he surpass after that?

Thanks

amos1er
10-09-2012, 08:45 PM
For sure he would pass them. Kobe is already above Duncan and Hakeem. Shaq and Bird are debatable.

Here is my all-time list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

One more title and Finals MVP for Kobe and he slides past them for sure. Then he enters into the conversation of Wilt, Russell, and Magic. If he then gets another title and finals MVP he would be the second greatest of all time under Jordan. I don't think it's possible at this point for Kobe to pass Jordan unless a miracle happened...he would need 4 more titles, 3 more finals MVP's, 1 more reg season MVP, and move past Kareem on the all-time scoring list. Even then it would still be debatable.

Oh and for the jokers saying that Kobe only had 4-6 elite seasons...

14-time NBA All-Star

14-time All-NBA Team selection:
First team: 10 times
Second team: 2 times
Third team: 2 times

12-time All-Defensive Team selection:
First team: 9 times
Second team: 3 times

and to the brainiacs who say that Shaq had better longevity than Kobe...

Shaq All Star appearances: 15/19 seasons
Kobe All Star appearances: 14/16 seasons

Shaq 8 All NBA first teams
Kobe 10 All NBA first teams

Shaq 0 All NBA defensive first teams
Kobe 9 All NBA defensive first teams

Kobe 29,484 career points scored...and still going
Shaq 28,596 career points scored

Kobe in his 16th season: 28 ppg, 5 apg, 5 rpg, ts% 53, PER 21.9, WS/48 .132 / Started for the All Star team, All NBA first team, All NBA second team defense, 4th in MVP voting

Shaq in his 16th season: 14 ppg, 2 apg, 9 rpg, ts% 59, PER 17.1 WS/48 .078 / did not make the All Star team, did not make an All NBA team, did not make an All NBA defensive team, did not receive one MVP vote

Still think that Shaq has better longevity than Kobe???

LA_Raiders
10-09-2012, 08:46 PM
He passed them already

C-Style
10-09-2012, 08:56 PM
The way I view Kobe's career so highly: Is because he's had a 14 year stretch putting up 28/6/5/2/1 46% as a starter, 14 All-stars seasons, 12 1-2 All-NBA teams, 12 1-2 All-NBA defensive teams, 7 Finals appearances, 5 Championships 2 - Finals MVP. I see him as a player who was able to duplicate Jordans skill level set to the max. Unfortunately his love for 3pt shots hurt his percentage by 3%. But still not bad at all.

I mean if he get's 1 or 2 more F-MVP(very unlikely) He's career will be up there.

C-Style
10-09-2012, 08:59 PM
he would have a case..

Point of the thread is that he has a case now and winning a F-MVP will remove all doubt


Agreed, if we are talking about peak play then Kobe probably wouldnt be top 10 in my book. His accolades, awards, and longevity are what bring him into the top 10 greats. I would choose many players peak over kobes: jordan, wilt, kareem, shaq, magic, Bird, duncan, hakeem, id even take lebron last year over any peak kobe year. I dont know how anyone can think his accolades and awards hold him back?

fair points but not all of those players were great two way players?

mngopher35
10-09-2012, 09:18 PM
he doesnt have 11 rings, 6 fmvps, more than 1 mvp, more than 2 fmvps, etc...Thats what i meant by accolades hold him back from top 5 all time. Im talking from a strict basketball player, he is as skilled and talented as they come, a lot of the guys in the top 10 have the advantage of era, and size. There is not many players more skilled at basketball then kobe. I got jordan and magic as the only 2... Kobe could do it all, defense, shoot, post up, handles, pass, work ethic, IQ, mid range game...He just shouldered the load as a scorer for the majority of his career, as a complete player, theres not many better.

Ok, i think i get what your saying. I would probably agree with you then that kobe is probably top 5 skilled players of all time. Hes good to great in the areas you mentioned. When ranking players though you cant just give extra credit to smaller players and take away what the centers have done. So I would agree that Kobe has more overall basketball skill than shaq, but shaq dominated basketball games more than kobe. Therefore on an all time ranking I still put shaq over kobe because he played better for his teams than kobe did throughout his career (kobes longevity is bringing him very close though).

C-Style
10-09-2012, 09:38 PM
You also have to kinda use some logic, for example when comparing centers/bigs people don't seem to care much about FG% For example Bill Russell averaged 44% in a era that West averaged 47%, would that fly in todays era? People like to give Kobe a lot of flak for shooting 46% and not 49% that's 3-4 less than the perimeter standard(Jordan Bird, Bron etc)..But you don't hear much about how Hakeem & Duncan shoot 5-7% less than Kareem & Shaq.

Russell 44%
Duncan 51%
Hakeem 51%
Chamberlain 54%
Kareem 56%
Shaq 58%

b@llhog24
10-09-2012, 09:39 PM
Am I the only one that has Tim Duncan ahead of Kobe?

Nope.



Do the names, SAM Cassell, Clyde Drexel, tony parker, Man Ginobili, David Robinson ring a bell? Maybe you'll recognize most of them at there HOF ceremony. lol :facepalm:

Who? :p


An yet lamar odom has none....to be fair.

That's the point Odom was never an allstar but he was a better player than Wally.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 10:00 PM
he doesnt have 11 rings, 6 fmvps, more than 1 mvp, more than 2 fmvps, etc...Thats what i meant by accolades hold him back from top 5 all time. Im talking from a strict basketball player, he is as skilled and talented as they come, a lot of the guys in the top 10 have the advantage of era, and size. There is not many players more skilled at basketball then kobe. I got jordan and magic as the only 2... Kobe could do it all, defense, shoot, post up, handles, pass, work ethic, IQ, mid range game...He just shouldered the load as a scorer for the majority of his career, as a complete player, theres not many better.

you don't have to ignore who he was replying to. Kobe's accolades and hardware are exactly WHY he is in the top 10. If we are talking 10 best basketball players to ever play in the NBA, production and skill wise, Kobe is left out. But that is why we factor in statistical production individually, along with individual awards, accolades, team success, etc. And that is where Kobe enters that top 10.

Kobe's career success, coupled with the length of his prime play, are what make him top 10. It's not his peak or absolute dominance for shorter periods of time. It's why he passed Bird. Bird's peak and skill level were higher, period. But he just didn't sustain his level anywhere near where Kobe has.

C-Style
10-09-2012, 10:01 PM
you don't have to ignore who he was replying to. Kobe's accolades and hardware are exactly WHY he is in the top 10. If we are talking 10 best basketball players to ever play in the NBA, production and skill wise, Kobe is left out. But that is why we factor in statistical production individually, along with individual awards, accolades, team success, etc. And that is where Kobe enters that top 10.

Kobe's career success, coupled with the length of his prime play, are what make him top 10. It's not his peak or absolute dominance for shorter periods of time. It's why he passed Bird. Bird's peak and skill level were higher, period. But he just didn't sustain his level anywhere near where Kobe has.


Is he left out among perimeter players?

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 10:02 PM
An yet lamar odom has none....to be fair.

you missed the point. Odom>Wally. Despite Wally having an all star appearance. A single accolade should never determine who the better player is man.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 10:02 PM
Is he left out among perimeter players?

no

edit: hell no

C-Style
10-09-2012, 10:08 PM
you missed the point. Odom>Wally. Despite Wally having an all star appearance. A single accolade should never determine who the better player is man.

Great point but I think you missed the point. Andrew32 is making it out to be like Lamar is on caliber with 4-10 time All-stars.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2012, 10:13 PM
Great point but I think you missed the point. Andrew32 is making it out to be like Lamar is on caliber with 4-10 time All-stars.

oh, no dude, Lamar is a great role player when he cares at all (how often has that happened), but he isn't on par with a borderline HOF candidate, let alone a multiple time all star.

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 10:21 PM
So far Ive gotten Kobe ranked 7-10 range. Most say he can't into the top 5 execpt Laker fans. Sound about right?

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 10:27 PM
you don't have to ignore who he was replying to. Kobe's accolades and hardware are exactly WHY he is in the top 10. If we are talking 10 best basketball players to ever play in the NBA, production and skill wise, Kobe is left out. But that is why we factor in statistical production individually, along with individual awards, accolades, team success, etc. And that is where Kobe enters that top 10.

Kobe's career success, coupled with the length of his prime play, are what make him top 10. It's not his peak or absolute dominance for shorter periods of time. It's why he passed Bird. Bird's peak and skill level were higher, period. But he just didn't sustain his level anywhere near where Kobe has.

Going by your logic

Russell wouldn't be top 5 in most people's opinions Jordan wouldn't be the best ever or Kareem etc.

Mile High Champ
10-09-2012, 10:27 PM
Russell remains the most overrated player on every top 10 list.

C-Style
10-09-2012, 10:32 PM
I dunno how Hawkeye15 does it but he is one of the most logical Kobe haters in PSD. U came a long ways bro.

xxplayerxx23
10-09-2012, 10:34 PM
.

mngopher35
10-09-2012, 10:34 PM
You also have to kinda use some logic, for example when comparing centers/bigs people don't seem to care much about FG% For example Bill Russell averaged 44% in a era that West averaged 47%, would that fly in todays era? People like to give Kobe a lot of flak for shooting 46% and not 49% that's 3-4 less than the perimeter standard(Jordan Bird, Bron etc)..But you don't hear much about how Hakeem & Duncan shoot 5-7% less than Kareem & Shaq.

Russell 44%
Duncan 51%
Hakeem 51%
Chamberlain 54%
Kareem 56%
Shaq 58%

Well normally people dont claim duncan or hakeem were above shaq, kareem, or wilt so people dont have a reason to bring it up? Russell was in a different era so its harder to talk about his fg% (i have barely seen Russell play so I have an insanely hard time trying to rank him).

jayjay33
10-09-2012, 10:36 PM
you missed the point. Odom>Wally. Despite Wally having an all star appearance. A single accolade should never determine who the better player is man.

No it is you who "completely" missed the point. Which was odom was not an all-star level player. Not who was better him are cassell. lol

An all-star level player should have less all -stars games than guy who was not an all-star level player. Your whole "to be fair' theroy was way of base, because wally making 1 does not explain why lamar "never" did. Which was the point you missed. So your wally had a all-star selection futher proved the "point". Even guys who wernt all-star level players luck up and got 1, But Odom has zero. Your wally arugment hurts odom alot more than it helps him. As it pertains to the point I was making.

C-Style
10-09-2012, 10:38 PM
Well normally people dont claim duncan or hakeem were above shaq, kareem, or wilt so people dont have a reason to bring it up? Russell was in a different era so its harder to talk about his fg% (i have barely seen Russell play so I have an insanely hard time trying to rank him).

I do see plenty of people put Hakeem & Duncan ahead of Shaq but I'm sure they also value other areas of the game...as they should. Wilt played in his era as well. You gotta also admit, Kobe get's A LOT of Flak, get's called a chucker inconsistent, like he's AI. even when not comparing him in the All-time list

THE MTL
10-09-2012, 10:46 PM
Championships are NOT in the equation anymore once you get into the Top 10. All these guys have MULTIPLE rings. You must judge purely on skill-level and longevity.

Kobe can never touch Shaq, because he was never better than Shaq. I would put Kobe over Duncan and Bird though and probi Wilt Chamberlain as well.

b@llhog24
10-09-2012, 10:49 PM
Russell remains the most overrated player on every top 10 list.

:clap:

jerellh528
10-09-2012, 10:51 PM
Shaq is the most overrated basketball player of all time.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 10:52 PM
^^ yes he is

mngopher35
10-09-2012, 10:53 PM
I do see plenty of people put Hakeem & Duncan ahead of Shaq but I'm sure they also value other areas of the game...as they should. Wilt played in his era as well. You gotta also admit, Kobe get's A LOT of Flak, get's called a chucker inconsistent, like he's AI. even when not comparing him in the All-time list

Well, shaq also had a much lower ft% to even it out a bit, but I have him above both those players all time. Yes, Kobe does get alot of flak for his shot selection and fg%. Ill even admit I bring it up when talking about him, it does stand out between him and the other perimeter players in the top 10 (jordan, magic, bird, and potentially Lebron when his career ends).

I will also admit that it is over stated as you claim. There is no denying that kobe takes some shots he shouldnt and could have facilitated a little more throughout his career (every player could have done something a little better throughout their career this is what i feel kobe could have done). Its not as if fg% is some end all be all like some people make it out to be when talking kobe. Kobe takes harder shots and takes a good amount of jumpers of course his fg% will be a little lower. He isnt some chucker who hurts his team by any means, people who claim this are just being ridiculous. Just gotta ignore the people who are clearly hating on kobe and debate with those who wanna have a real discussion.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-09-2012, 10:55 PM
Championships are NOT in the equation anymore once you get into the Top 10. All these guys have MULTIPLE rings. You must judge purely on skill-level and longevity.

Kobe can never touch Shaq, because he was never better than Shaq. I would put Kobe over Duncan and Bird though and probi Wilt Chamberlain as well.

Kobe never better then shaq child please even shaq called Kobe the best player in the game back like in 02-03'
Kobe has already passed shaq. You're just delusional

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 12:09 AM
Going by your logic

Russell wouldn't be top 5 in most people's opinions Jordan wouldn't be the best ever or Kareem etc.

Uh, you have no idea what logic I use. Jordan is exponentially the best player of all time. Both the others, especially Kareem, are ahead of Kobe. Russell is a bit overrated, yes.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 12:11 AM
No it is you who "completely" missed the point. Which was odom was not an all-star level player. Not who was better him are cassell. lol

An all-star level player should have less all -stars games than guy who was not an all-star level player. Your whole "to be fair' theroy was way of base, because wally making 1 does not explain why lamar "never" did. Which was the point you missed. So your wally had a all-star selection futher proved the "point". Even guys who wernt all-star level players luck up and got 1, But Odom has zero. Your wally arugment hurts odom alot more than it helps him. As it pertains to the point I was making.

Odom has been an all star level player, despite not being named to one. I get you have a personal definition, as do I. You made your point. I sort of agreed with it, despite your reasoning.

Tony_Starks
10-10-2012, 12:56 AM
Kobe is already ahead of them imo. People are seriously underrating his prolonged play at a superior level. He's close to retirement and still a legit superstar, still in the convo as one of the best sg's in the league, and almost was the oldest player to lead the league in scoring last year. Shaq, Dream and Bird were flat out hard to even watch toward retirement. Duncan is still productive but nowhere near where he used to be.

And to say Shaq had more years of dominance is illogical because 3 of those years Kobe was told "its Shaqs team." Had Kobe had HIS own team those years his numbers would've been ridiculous.......

Lakersfanla24
10-10-2012, 12:59 AM
For sure he would pass them. Kobe is already above Duncan and Hakeem. Shaq and Bird are debatable.

Here is my all-time list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

One more title and Finals MVP for Kobe and he slides past them for sure. Then he enters into the conversation of Wilt, Russell, and Magic. If he then gets another title and finals MVP he would be the second greatest of all time under Jordan. I don't think it's possible at this point for Kobe to pass Jordan unless a miracle happened...he would need 4 more titles, 3 more finals MVP's, 1 more reg season MVP, and move past Kareem on the all-time scoring list. Even then it would still be debatable.

Oh and for the jokers saying that Kobe only had 4-6 elite seasons...

14-time NBA All-Star

14-time All-NBA Team selection:
First team: 10 times
Second team: 2 times
Third team: 2 times

12-time All-Defensive Team selection:
First team: 9 times
Second team: 3 times

and to the brainiacs who say that Shaq had better longevity than Kobe...

Shaq All Star appearances: 15/19 seasons
Kobe All Star appearances: 14/16 seasons

Shaq 8 All NBA first teams
Kobe 10 All NBA first teams

Shaq 0 All NBA defensive first teams
Kobe 9 All NBA defensive first teams

Kobe 29,484 career points scored...and still going
Shaq 28,596 career points scored

Kobe in his 16th season: 28 ppg, 5 apg, 5 rpg, ts% 53, PER 21.9, WS/48 .132 / Started for the All Star team, All NBA first team, All NBA second team defense, 4th in MVP voting

Shaq in his 16th season: 14 ppg, 2 apg, 9 rpg, ts% 59, PER 17.1 WS/48 .078 / did not make the All Star team, did not make an All NBA team, did not make an All NBA defensive team, did not receive one MVP vote

Still think that Shaq has better longevity than Kobe???

This over and over again:clap: For the list though i would slide Bird down below Shaq and Kobe. I also find it funny that no one has responded to this post yet??? I wonder y....... Where you at Andrew32?

beliges
10-10-2012, 01:48 AM
For sure he would pass them. Kobe is already above Duncan and Hakeem. Shaq and Bird are debatable.

Here is my all-time list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

One more title and Finals MVP for Kobe and he slides past them for sure. Then he enters into the conversation of Wilt, Russell, and Magic. If he then gets another title and finals MVP he would be the second greatest of all time under Jordan. I don't think it's possible at this point for Kobe to pass Jordan unless a miracle happened...he would need 4 more titles, 3 more finals MVP's, 1 more reg season MVP, and move past Kareem on the all-time scoring list. Even then it would still be debatable.

Oh and for the jokers saying that Kobe only had 4-6 elite seasons...

14-time NBA All-Star

14-time All-NBA Team selection:
First team: 10 times
Second team: 2 times
Third team: 2 times

12-time All-Defensive Team selection:
First team: 9 times
Second team: 3 times

and to the brainiacs who say that Shaq had better longevity than Kobe...

Shaq All Star appearances: 15/19 seasons
Kobe All Star appearances: 14/16 seasons

Shaq 8 All NBA first teams
Kobe 10 All NBA first teams

Shaq 0 All NBA defensive first teams
Kobe 9 All NBA defensive first teams

Kobe 29,484 career points scored...and still going
Shaq 28,596 career points scored

Kobe in his 16th season: 28 ppg, 5 apg, 5 rpg, ts% 53, PER 21.9, WS/48 .132 / Started for the All Star team, All NBA first team, All NBA second team defense, 4th in MVP voting

Shaq in his 16th season: 14 ppg, 2 apg, 9 rpg, ts% 59, PER 17.1 WS/48 .078 / did not make the All Star team, did not make an All NBA team, did not make an All NBA defensive team, did not receive one MVP vote

Still think that Shaq has better longevity than Kobe???

Shaq's PER was higher though...

b@llhog24
10-10-2012, 01:52 AM
Shaq's PER was higher though...

It funny how that single statement is almost a more compelling argument than his entire post.

C-Style
10-10-2012, 02:05 AM
It funny how that single statement is almost a more compelling argument than his entire post.

:eyebrow:

amos1er
10-10-2012, 03:35 AM
It funny how that single statement is almost a more compelling argument than his entire post.

How so?

jerellh528
10-10-2012, 03:37 AM
It funny how that single statement is almost a more compelling argument than his entire post.

:facepalm:

amos1er
10-10-2012, 03:46 AM
Shaq's PER was higher though...

Huh?

I don't understand what you could be possibly referring to?

In 2008, Shaq was in his 16th season...his PER was 17.1. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

In 2012, Kobe was in his 16th season...his PER was 21.9. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Last I checked 21.9 was a larger number than 17.1.

I only compared these two season's to show that Kobe was playing at a higher level than Shaq when they were both in their 16th seasons. Thus proving without a doubt, Kobe had better longevity.

I don't like to use PER normally, but I did in this situation in order to eliminate all doubt as to any contradictory argument that could possibly be made by the nit pickers on this site who have tendency to use any single arbitrary stat they can find in a vain attempt to make my argument appear less credible.

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 04:41 AM
No it is you who "completely" missed the point. Which was odom was not an all-star level player. Not who was better him are cassell. lol

An all-star level player should have less all -stars games than guy who was not an all-star level player. Your whole "to be fair' theroy was way of base, because wally making 1 does not explain why lamar "never" did. Which was the point you missed. So your wally had a all-star selection futher proved the "point". Even guys who wernt all-star level players luck up and got 1, But Odom has zero. Your wally arugment hurts odom alot more than it helps him. As it pertains to the point I was making.

Odom has been an all star level player, despite not being named to one. I get you have a personal definition, as do I. You made your point. I sort of agreed with it, despite your reasoning.


Yes we have very different definitions. Mine is base on his actual play, but your seems to be more based on his talent. Which is fine, but for me you have to actually play like and all-star to be all-star level. To each his own.

So let's just say he didn't play at the level compared to real all-star PF's. But if all the all-star PF's got hurt he would have been at an All-star level player compared to what was left. ;)

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 04:45 AM
Championships are NOT in the equation anymore once you get into the Top 10. All these guys have MULTIPLE rings. You must judge purely on skill-level and longevity.

Kobe can never touch Shaq, because he was never better than Shaq. I would put Kobe over Duncan and Bird though and probi Wilt Chamberlain as well.


Wait what? So does shaq trump Kobe in skill level or longevity? You just completely made the case for Kobe. Lol

Back track in 3....2.....1

xcrisisx
10-10-2012, 05:16 AM
Russell remains the most overrated player on every top 10 list.

that sounds like blasphemy to me

thenaj17
10-10-2012, 05:44 AM
No...

No way in hell Kobe is better than Hakeem or Duncan. Kobe has had Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, and now Howard and Nash. Kobe's lucky his team gets stars year in year out.

Are you seriously giving that argument??

Bynum was injured for both title runs, missing 1 entirely. Lamar Odom has NEVER been an allstar and was 1 of the most inconsistent players the Lakers had. What did he ever do before or since playing alongside Kobe?

Pau was and in my eyes, still is a great player...but what did he achieve before joining Kobe? R.O.Y.? So did Okafor ahead of Dwight...

Don't forget Shaq and Duncan have been very fortunate aswell. Shaq hasn't had a ring without playing with Kobe or Wade, the 2 best SG's in the league over the last 10 years (no T-Mac wasn't better other than 1 year regular season). Duncan had D-Rob for his 1st title and has had Ginobili, Parker for the others, not to mention an excellent younger S-Jax for 1.

Duncan has been average for a few years now and certainly wasn't better than Kobe upto 2007 like someone said. Are you punishing Kobe for being a guard and elevating players like Hakeem and Duncan because they are centres and majority of shots are layups, 10ft jumpers, often set up by the guards?

People seem to be forgetting that Kobe has NEVER had a competent, let alone good PG playing with him to set him up for easier scores. You'll do anything to discredit what he's done so far.

thenaj17
10-10-2012, 05:49 AM
that sounds like blasphemy to me

But he's right...11 rings in an era where 1 team won every year. Very weak league. Him and Wilt were obviously superstars in their time but put them in todays league and they wouldn't stand out. To be able to get 50 rebounds in a single game suggests how poor the competition in those days actually was.

basketfan4life
10-10-2012, 10:16 AM
I wanna say somethin about Lamar;

If he is your number 2 option you are screwed, if he is no:3 you aren't going anywhere. If he is your number 4, you are probably a c'ship winning team. He doesn't even have an option number.

He is not a real sf or pf.

He is consistently inconsistent.

Such an awkward guy.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 10:28 AM
He is consistently inconsistent.

I don't agree with that.
Lamar was generally pretty consistent with his level of play.

Awkward guy...? Sure.
All-Star level player...? Sure

Pretty amazing to have an All-Star coming off the bench even if he is a strange dude.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 10:33 AM
Wait what? So does shaq trump Kobe in skill level or longevity? You just completely made the case for Kobe. Lol

Back track in 3....2.....1
Skill is irrelevant, results are all that matters.

In terms of overall longevity Shaq and Kobe are about equal currently or I think Shaq has a small edge.

However Shaq was a much better player then Kobe and if you compare them over their best 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 or 13 years Shaq destroys Kobe in terms of production/performances, consistency and impact.

He was much more impactful on both ends of the floor.

He had a much better Peak and a much better and longer Prime.

Shaq was a higher quality player and this non existent edge some of you think Kobe has in longevity does not exist to make up for that.

Kobe would need to play for like 10 more years to make up for the enormous edge in quality between their Peak/Prime years. (which is where the bulk of a players career value is)

Shaq's career value in terms of production/performances, consistency and longevitiy is right on par with Jordan, Kareem, Magic and Russell.

Kobe is nowhere near that group.

Shaq is horribly underrated by most people (Bird and Wilt have no case being over him) but to say Kobe will ever be ranked equally or above him is an absolute joke.

I respect Kobe and think he could be argued as high as #7 by time he retires.
I don't see how that makes me a hater.

But surpassing Shaq... that is an absolute joke.
Not happening in this world atleast not by people who can understand just how unique an amazing Shaq's career was.

thenaj17
10-10-2012, 11:17 AM
I don't agree with that.
Lamar was generally pretty consistent with his level of play.

Awkward guy...? Sure.
All-Star level player...? Sure

Pretty amazing to have an All-Star coming off the bench even if he is a strange dude.

Consistent? You're not a Laker fan so no way did you watch as many games as a lot of us fans (real fans anyway). Lamar was the single most inconsistent player on the team since he joined. He was the main reason we went 7 games with the Rockets without Yao and McGrady just for 1 example.

I don't know how many times you need to be told he was NEVER an all star. He's never been as good as players like Monta Ellis/Josh Smith/Z-Bo/M Gasol/Rudy Gay - players like this with 0 or 1 all star appearance.

Chronz
10-10-2012, 11:17 AM
Mine is base on his actual play, but your seems to be more based on his talent. Which is fine, but for me you have to actually play like and all-star to be all-star level. To each his own.


Wats this mean?

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 11:46 AM
I don't know how many times you need to be told he was NEVER an all star.
His production and impact in the mid/late 00's was certainly on the level of an All-Star.

I disagree with you saying his level of play was inconsistent.
I watched most of his playoff games and examined his stats in the regular season and there is nothing to support that assertion.

b@llhog24
10-10-2012, 12:01 PM
:eyebrow:


How so?


:facepalm:

Just for the heck of it, do you guys know what PER really is or are you just bashing it because you don't understand it?


Huh?

I don't understand what you could be possibly referring to?

In 2008, Shaq was in his 16th season...his PER was 17.1. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

In 2012, Kobe was in his 16th season...his PER was 21.9. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Last I checked 21.9 was a larger number than 17.1.

I only compared these two season's to show that Kobe was playing at a higher level than Shaq when they were both in their 16th seasons. Thus proving without a doubt, Kobe had better longevity.

I don't disagree, your post was tailored more to Andrew's POVs not mines.


I don't like to use PER normally, but I did in this situation in order to eliminate all doubt as to any contradictory argument that could possibly be made by the nit pickers on this site who have tendency to use any single arbitrary stat they can find in a vain attempt to make my argument appear less credible.

Nobody should ever use a single stat to gauge a players worth/value/production. But if you're going to use one; PER kind of says a lot.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 12:05 PM
That post was wrong anyway and didn't prove he had better longevity since Shaq had less post-seasons ruined by injury and was much better in his first 2-4 seasons where Kobe was often a bench player or a low impact guy.

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 12:19 PM
Wait what? So does shaq trump Kobe in skill level or longevity? You just completely made the case for Kobe. Lol

Back track in 3....2.....1
Skill is irrelevant, results are all that matters.

In terms of overall longevity Shaq and Kobe are about equal currently or I think Shaq has a small edge.

However Shaq was a much better player then Kobe and if you compare them over their best 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 or 13 years Shaq destroys Kobe in terms of production/performances, consistency and impact.

He was much more impactful on both ends of the floor.

He had a much better Peak and a much better and longer Prime.

Shaq was a higher quality player and this non existent edge some of you think Kobe has in longevity does not exist to make up for that.

Kobe would need to play for like 10 more years to make up for the enormous edge in quality between their Peak/Prime years. (which is where the bulk of a players career value is)

Shaq's career value in terms of production/performances, consistency and longevitiy is right on par with Jordan, Kareem, Magic and Russell.

Kobe is nowhere near that group.

Shaq is horribly underrated by most people (Bird and Wilt have no case being over him) but to say Kobe will ever be ranked equally or above him is an absolute joke.

I respect Kobe and think he could be argued as high as #7 by time he retires.
I don't see how that makes me a hater.

But surpassing Shaq... that is an absolute joke.
Not happening in this world atleast not by people who can understand just how unique an amazing Shaq's career was.


1. He brought up skill level.

2. Results? Rings and accolades Kobe trumps shaq. There are no greater results.

3. Longevity? You might be the single biggest Kobe hater/ shaq jocker I have haver seen. Shaq is equal or has to edge on Kobe is longevity? Are you mad shaq been often injured sine he left orlando and was a role player for the last 6 or so years of his career. That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Shaq and Kobe are closer in jump shooing ability than they are in longevity, it not even close!

4. Kobe had a better career than shaq and was a better player. A 7 foot center with 0 all defensive first team and only 3.... 2nd team in his ENTIRE career.

5. Any list of a great basketball player you wanna make. Skill, intangibles, defense, Work ethic, rings, accolades, clutchness, whatever.... shaq still loses badly. Nobody in there right mind would choose Shaq's career over Kobe's.....end of story!


That longevity comment was just plain stupid. Shaq's been limping up and down the court, in and out the line up for years. That was the ALL TIME you have no clue what your taking about statement.

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 12:29 PM
That post was wrong anyway and didn't prove he had better longevity since Shaq had less post-seasons ruined by injury and was much better in his first 2-4 seasons where Kobe was often a bench player or a low impact guy.


What?!!!! Did you just try to use Shaq's first few seasons to prove his longevity? Lmmfao! Man where did they get you from. That's awesome.

You think shaq is better than Kobe but, you also the shaq had more longevity so there goes you cred. Then you compound that foolishness by trying to back up your longevity arugment with there first few season? To prove longevity? Really? Wow just wow, that's all I can say........

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-10-2012, 12:37 PM
I don't agree with that.
Lamar was generally pretty consistent with his level of play.

Awkward guy...? Sure.
All-Star level player...? Sure

Pretty amazing to have an All-Star coming off the bench even if he is a strange dude.

Again Lamar was never an all-star type player stop making it out to seem like Kobe had multiple stars on his team, gasol was the only other star on those championship teams, Andrew32 you are a sad sad man!

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-10-2012, 12:41 PM
1. He brought up skill level.

2. Results? Rings and accolades Kobe trumps shaq. There are no greater results.

3. Longevity? You might be the single biggest Kobe hater/ shaq jocker I have haver seen. Shaq is equal or has to edge on Kobe is longevity? Are you mad shaq been often injured sine he left orlando and was a role player for the last 6 or so years of his career. That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Shaq and Kobe are closer in jump shooing ability than they are in longevity, it not even close!

4. Kobe had a better career than shaq and was a better player. A 7 foot center with 0 all defensive first team and only 3.... 2nd team in his ENTIRE career.

5. Any list of a great basketball player you wanna make. Skill, intangibles, defense, Work ethic, rings, accolades, clutchness, whatever.... shaq still loses badly. Nobody in there right mind would choose Shaq's career over Kobe's.....end of story!


That longevity comment was just plain stupid. Shaq's been limping up and down the court, in and out the line up for years. That was the ALL TIME you have no clue what your taking about statement.

Only people that would take shaq over Kobe are Kobe haters

Lakersfanla24
10-10-2012, 12:56 PM
If Shaq had a better work ethic, could hit free throws, and wasnt a giant pre madonna I would take him in his prime over Kobe. Knowing what i do now about the paths their respective careers took, I would choose Kobe 10 times out of 10 to start a team. To say Kobe wont eventually pass him is ridiculous, has he yet? No, Will he? Lets just let the man retire and then rank him, a few more titles and finals mvps will go along way regardless of all your advanced stats bulls**t. Alot of you Kobe haters are going to regret not watching one of the greatest to ever lace them up play because of your hatred. BTW arguing with Andrew32 about Shaq is pointless, shaqs d**k is so far down his throat im surprised he can type.:rolleyes:

C-Style
10-10-2012, 01:01 PM
Who ever thinks Lamar was ever a consistent player is a moron and obvioulsy does not know what he's talking about, just shows they never watch Lakers on constant basis.

Kobe2324
10-10-2012, 01:16 PM
im seeing a lot of dif names being thrown out and to be honest its kind of shocking...Their is two players that are above all in NBA history at this time and thats MJ at #1 and Kobe is already #2, he does not have to surpass anyone else because he has already done so, even the goat himself said it. Unfortunetly I dont think Kobe can reach MJ for the #1 spot, He would have to do too much in a small amount of time to be really considered #1 and I dont think with the mileage he has he can can rech what is required to match or surpass MJ. But nothing wrong with going down in history as the only player to come close to MJ's greatness, wether he plays 2 more years or 4 more years or more I think his place in history at #2 is a lock, amazing career, without a doubt the best hard shot maker ever, MJ got a lot of points close to the basket, Kobe worked a lot harder for his points, also debatable that he is the best scorer the league has ever seen, I dont like to consider Wilt in this conversation because he played against weak, smaller players but MJ and Kobe are by far the best scorers ever and you can argue either side easy, but I think thats really the only advantage I give to Kobe, I also think he has a bigger hunger to win than MJ.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 01:35 PM
Again Lamar was never an all-star type player stop making it out to seem like Kobe had multiple stars on his team, gasol was the only other star on those championship teams, Andrew32 you are a sad sad man!

Lamar Odom

2006 : 19 / 11 / 5apg / 1.1bpg on 56%TS
2007 : 20 / 13 / 2apg / 1.2bpg
2008 : 15 / 10 / 3apg / 1.3bpg on 55%TS

Not an All-Star level player?
Yeah... those look like roleplayer numbers to me.

He was also a very consistent player/performer.
The "Lamar being inconsistent" is just another bullcrap myth pushed by Kobe suckers to try and prop up their idol and make him look better then he was.

LoveMeorHateme you are a sad sad Kobe homer.

naps
10-10-2012, 01:37 PM
im seeing a lot of dif names being thrown out and to be honest its kind of shocking...Their is two players that are above all in NBA history at this time and thats MJ at #1 and Kobe is already #2, he does not have to surpass anyone else because he has already done so, even the goat himself said it. Unfortunetly I dont think Kobe can reach MJ for the #1 spot, He would have to do too much in a small amount of time to be really considered #1 and I dont think with the mileage he has he can can rech what is required to match or surpass MJ. But nothing wrong with going down in history as the only player to come close to MJ's greatness, wether he plays 2 more years or 4 more years or more I think his place in history at #2 is a lock, amazing career, without a doubt the best hard shot maker ever, MJ got a lot of points close to the basket, Kobe worked a lot harder for his points, also debatable that he is the best scorer the league has ever seen, I dont like to consider Wilt in this conversation because he played against weak, smaller players but MJ and Kobe are by far the best scorers ever and you can argue either side easy, but I think thats really the only advantage I give to Kobe, I also think he has a bigger hunger to win than MJ.


:laugh2:

Ladies and gentlemen, read this only if you need a good laugh. Kobephiles are the best comedians.

The goods
10-10-2012, 01:47 PM
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Russel
Wilt

Are the only guys I'd put over Kobe for now he won't catch MJ but has a chance to be number 2 when he retires it'll take some championships but it can be done.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 01:51 PM
Playoff PER

A's (Main Star) :
Shaq (00-02) : 29
Jordan (91-93 + 96-98) : 28.53

B's (Side-Kicks) :
Kobe (00-02) : 21
Pippen (91-93 + 96-98) : 19.5

The difference is clear and obvious.


Comparison Between Kobe/Gasol in 2010.

Regular Season PER / WShares
Gasol : 22.9 ||| 11
Kobe : 21.9 ||| 9.4

Playoff PER / WShares
Gasol : 24 ||| 4.7
Kobe : 24.7 ||| 3.6

2010 Playoff Summary.
Gasol better in 12/23 Games.
Kobe better in 10/23 Games.

Gasol >= Kobe in 2010

-------------------------------------------------------------


MVP Shares / Votes / Points from 01-05.
TMac : 925
Kobe : 817

01 - 05
TMac > Kobe


Players from this Generation :

Jordan > Shaq >>> Duncan > Hakeem >>>>> KG/Kobe

-------------------------------------------------------------

#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6

------------------------------------------------------------

#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33

------------------------------------------------------------

#4.
Duncan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 28.4
Top 5 : 26.96
Top 7 : 27.49
Top 10 : 26.67
Top 13 : 25.4

------------------------------------------------------------

#12.
Hakeem : Post Season - PER
Peak : 27.7
Top 5 : 24.95
Top 7 : 24.61

------------------------------------------------------------

#14.
KG : Post Season - PER
Peak : 25.5
Top 5 : 24.68
Top 7 : 24

------------------------------------------------------------

#15.
Kobe : Post Season - PER
Peak : 26.8
Top 5 : 24
Top 7 : 23
Top 10 : 22.98
Top 13 : 21.62
Kobe is a great player but he is not even in the same galaxy as players like Shaq, Kareem, Jordan, Magic and Russell.

He doesn't have the Prime/Peak or consistency over his best years to get into that group and in terms of longevity he hasn't even surpassed Shaq yet.

Shaquille O'neal literally has 9-11 years better then Kobe's Peak (94/95-03/04).

He is not over Duncan yet either and does he belong over Wilt, Hakeem or Bird... debatable.

Sure he has 5 titles but 3 of them came as a supporting player / sidekick and only 1 of them came as the undisputed #1/engine of his team.
Kobe is by far the luckiest player ever in terms of career supporting casts / circumstances.
Don't forget Rings are a "team accomplishment".

The highest he will ever get is #7 and even from a debaters standpoint #6 is his ceiling.

The goods
10-10-2012, 01:54 PM
I wanna say somethin about Lamar;

If he is your number 2 option you are screwed, if he is no:3 you aren't going anywhere. If he is your number 4, you are probably a c'ship winning team. He doesn't even have an option number.

He is not a real sf or pf.

He is consistently inconsistent.

Such an awkward guy.

I agree about the number 2 option but he was our 3rd best player when we beat Orlando and Boston for those championships Bynum played but was mostly a distraction.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 01:59 PM
Bynum played but was mostly a distraction.

I wouldn't say that.
Bynum was mostly a non-factor in 2009 even if he did contribute a few big games randomly throughout the playoffs.

In 2010 though he was a consist contributor throughout the playoffs dropping many big games and his size and length helped the Lakers dominate the boards and defend the paint.
He was a notable contributor in 2010.

The goods
10-10-2012, 02:03 PM
I wouldn't say that.
Bynum was mostly a non-factor in 2009 even if he did contribute a few big games randomly throughout the playoffs.

In 2010 though he was a consist contributor throughout the playoffs dropping many big games and his size and length helped the Lakers dominate the boards and defend the paint.
He was a notable contributor in 2010.

I agree distraction was a poor choice of a word, but I was stating that he wasn't the 3rd option.

el hidalgo
10-10-2012, 02:04 PM
IMO, he has zero chance. Those guys each had years where you can say they were the best player in the league. Same can't be said for kobe.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 02:08 PM
I agree distraction was a poor choice of a word, but I was stating that he wasn't the 3rd option.
Agreed.

I'd probably put Kobe, Gasol and Odom over him even in 2010.

Showtime Steve
10-10-2012, 02:29 PM
Hakeem, since everyone claims he had nobodies on his team, would they have beaten the build if jordan hadn't left? Would your views on the dream change if he had no rings? I see shaq in respect to bill russell, freaks of nature at that time. And even after kobe shaq played with high level talent ring chasing. Duncan has never played with scrubs. I would say he had always played with the most underrated talent throughout his whole career. bird had his share of talent on those celtic teams. But I give players in the 80' s utmost respect because the talent of the league during those times. But to say at no point in kobe's career was he never a top 10 is ridiculous kobe hater or lover. Ask players in the league that played against him when he was in prime. Ask those coaches the preparation for what to do with him. Stats and rings are the goal I get that, but you can't WATCH kobe videos in his prime or a game on nbatv on him, and day he potent top 10.

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 03:12 PM
Lamar Odom

2006 : 19 / 11 / 5apg / 1.1bpg on 56%TS
2007 : 20 / 13 / 2apg / 1.2bpg
2008 : 15 / 10 / 3apg / 1.3bpg on 55%TS

Not an All-Star level player?
Yeah... those look like roleplayer numbers to me.
He was also a very consistent player/performer.
The "Lamar being inconsistent" is just another bullcrap myth pushed by Kobe suckers to try and prop up their idol and make him look better then he was.

LoveMeorHateme you are a sad sad Kobe homer.


Where the hell are you get those numbers?

Oh wait i see what you did, for 05-06 you took his playoff avg from ONE series against the "SUNS" a team who did not play defesne and had shawn marion playing PF.

Then you cam back and did the same thing for 06-07 ONE 5 game series against a no defense playing suns team who had a SKINNY SMALL FORWARD playing at the 4.

But the best part of your 'SPIN" is you left out that in the years when they won back to back ships he avg 12pt and 9 pt. Or that in 09-10 he got out played by big baby in the finals..... yeah thats what all-star level player do!

But for the record, lets just look at his real numbers, shall we?


Lamar Odom

Career Season Averages

Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

99-00 LAC 76 70 36.4 0.438 0.360 0.719 2.1 5.7 7.8 4.2 1.2 1.2 3.39 3.83 16.6

00-01 LAC 76 74 37.3 0.460 0.316 0.679 1.4 6.3 7.8 5.2 1.0 1.6 3.47 3.11 17.2

01-02 LAC 29 25 34.4 0.419 0.190 0.656 1.1 5.0 6.1 5.9 0.8 1.2 3.34 3.14 13.1

02-03 LAC 49 47 34.3 0.439 0.326 0.777 1.2 5.4 6.7 3.6 0.9 0.8 2.86 3.69 14.6

03-04 MIA 80 80 37.5 0.430 0.298 0.742 2.0 7.7 9.7 4.1 1.1 0.9 2.95 3.41 17.1

04-05 LAL 64 64 36.3 0.473 0.308 0.695 2.1 8.1 10.2 3.7 0.7 1.0 2.52 3.30 15.2

05-06 LAL 80 80 40.3 0.481 0.372 0.690 2.3 7.0 9.2 5.5 0.9 0.8 2.66 3.20 14.8

06-07 LAL 56 56 39.3 0.468 0.297 0.700 1.8 7.9 9.8 4.8 1.0 0.6 2.91 3.25 15.9

07-08 LAL 77 77 37.9 0.525 0.274 0.698 2.6 8.1 10.6 3.5 1.0 0.9 2.03 2.88 14.2

08-09 LAL 78 32 29.7 0.492 0.320 0.623 2.3 5.9 8.2 2.6 1.0 1.3 1.77 3.01 11.3

09-10 LAL 82 38 31.5 0.463 0.319 0.693 2.2 7.5 9.8 3.3 0.9 0.7 1.83 2.77 10.8

10-11 LAL 82 35 32.2 0.530 0.382 0.675 2.1 6.5 8.7 3.0 0.6 0.7 1.70 2.44 14.4

11-12 DAL 50 4 20.5 0.352 0.252 0.592 0.7 3.4 4.2 1.7 0.4 0.4 1.04 1.94 6.6

Career -- 879 682 34.7 0.465 0.317 0.696 1.9 6.7 8.6 3.9 0.9 1.0 2.47 3.07 14.2



Career Playoff Averages

Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

03-04 MIA 13 13 39.4 0.445 0.308 0.681 2.5 5.8 8.3 2.8 1.2 0.8 3.23 4.46 16.8

05-06 LAL 7 7 44.9 0.495 0.200 0.667 2.1 8.9 11.0 4.9 0.4 1.1 3.29 3.29 19.1

06-07 LAL 5 5 38.4 0.482 0.273 0.500 4.0 9.0 13.0 2.2 0.4 1.2 2.00 3.40 19.4
07-08 LAL 21 21 37.4 0.491 0.273 0.661 2.2 7.7 10.0 3.0 0.7 1.3 2.24 3.43 14.3

08-09 LAL 23 5 32.0 0.524 0.514 0.613 2.8 6.3 9.1 1.8 0.7 1.4 1.70 3.26 12.3
09-10 LAL 23 0 29.0 0.469 0.244 0.600 2.6 6.0 8.6 2.0 0.6 0.9 1.22 3.65 9.7

10-11 LAL 10 1 28.6 0.459 0.200 0.711 1.3 5.2 6.5 2.1 0.2 0.4 1.50 2.50 12.1

Career -- 102 52 34.2 0.482 0.299 0.644 2.5 6.7 9.1 2.5 0.7 1.0 2.00 3.47 13.5

All Star numbers? Not in this life time! Now any more "lies" you wanna tell to try and discredit kobe?

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 03:17 PM
All Star numbers? Not in this life time!
So you're saying his playoff numbers shouldn't count...?
Also since when is Marion a bad defender...?

His volume numbers went down in 09/10 because his minutes dropped and he went from a starting role to being a sixth man.

On a per minute basis his numbers and impact didn't change at all which is reflected in his P36 numbers and in WSP48.

He was still the same All-Star caliber player he was from 06-08 he was just playing less mpg.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-10-2012, 03:32 PM
Is there a way to see how many posts Andrew32 has in this thread alone? :laugh2:


Face it dude, you hate Kobe, and guys like you are obsessed with him more than his supporters.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 03:37 PM
Face it dude, you hate Kobe, and guys like you are obsessed with him more than his supporters.

So... a person who praises Kobe frequently, has him ranked in his Top #10 and thinks he could be argued as high as #6 when he retires is a Kobe hater?

The fact is I will always post against people who brutally overrate him.
That doesn't mean I hate or dislike him.

Think what you want though. :hi5:

Chavacano
10-10-2012, 03:41 PM
Is there a way to see how many posts Andrew32 has in this thread alone? :laugh2:


Face it dude, you hate Kobe, and guys like you are obsessed with him more than his supporters.

^^ Here (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=768210). ;)

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 03:46 PM
So you're saying his playoff numbers shouldn't count...?
Also since when is Marion a bad defender...?

His volume numbers went down in 09/10 because his minutes dropped and he went from a starting role to being a sixth man.

On a per minute basis his numbers and impact didn't change at all which is reflected in his P36 numbers and in WSP48.

He was still the same All-Star caliber player he was from 06-08 he was just playing less mpg.


No they count, but two good playoff series "12" games against a SKINNY small forward out of posistion trying to play PF cause they got nobody else in your ENTIRE career. DOES NOT MAKE YOU ALL STAR LEVEL. Thats a ridiculous arugment. He NEVER did it against anybody except ONE little SMALL FORWARD. An that makes him all-star level player. Get real dude........

If he was really and all-star level player you should have tons of stats to back you not this junk. he only has one 6 man of the year? You put an all-star on the bench and he cant even win 6th man? in all those years? really? :facepalm:

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 03:52 PM
No they count, but two good playoff series "12" games against a SKINNY small forward out of posistion trying to play PF cause they got nobody else in your ENTIRE career. DOES NOT MAKE YOU ALL STAR LEVEL. Thats a ridiculous arugment. He NEVER did it against anybody except ONE little SMALL FORWARD. An that makes him all-star level player. Get real dude........

Even if you judge him by his 06-08 regular season numbers I still think he was producing at the level of an All-Star.

Over that three year span in the regular season he averaged 15 / 10 / 5apg

Is that really roleplayer type production?

C'mon now.

Believe what you want but I consider Lakers Lamar an All-Star caliber player even if he was at times only a low level All-Star.

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 04:05 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------




Kobe is a great player but he is not even in the same galaxy as players like Shaq, Kareem, Jordan, Magic and Russell.

He doesn't have the Prime/Peak or consistency over his best years to get into that group and in terms of longevity he hasn't even surpassed Shaq yet.

Shaquille O'neal literally has 9-11 years better then Kobe's Peak (94/95-03/04).

He is not over Duncan yet either and does he belong over Wilt, Hakeem or Bird... debatable.

Sure he has 5 titles but 3 of them came as a supporting player / sidekick and only 1 of them came as the undisputed #1/engine of his team.
Kobe is by far the luckiest player ever in terms of career supporting casts / circumstances.
Don't forget Rings are a "team accomplishment".

The highest he will ever get is #7 and even from a debaters standpoint #6 is his ceiling.



Oh now this is pricless. Luck uh? Ok, kobe got 1 all-star in gasol and went to three straight finals and won 2.

shaq has beed paired with the following multi all-star\all nba players i'll only inclued guys with both to give shaq a advantage.........penny hardway, eddie jones, nash, stoudemire, LEBRON, paul pirece, KG, Ray allen,rondo. An with all those guys shaq has managed 1 finals apperance and 0 WINS.........GAME OVER!!!!!!!

mngopher35
10-10-2012, 04:06 PM
You guys cant be serious that you think kobe is better than shaq and anyone who thinks otherwise is a hater? Seriously? Shaq was dominant in his prime, moreso than kobe and their longevity isnt that much different. If I could draft shaq or kobe right now, knowing what we know id take shaq pretty easily. I understand there are different opinions and some may prefer kobe but lets not act like its unreasonable to say shaq was the better player. Shaq impacted games more than kobe in his prime, had better statistics, and better playoffs as well. I just dont see kobe passing him without going back to prime kobe these next couple years.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 04:15 PM
Oh now this is pricless. Luck uh? Ok, kobe got 1 all-star in gasol and went to three straight finals and won 2.
lol... what kind of logic is this?

2009 Gasol >>> 2000 Kobe
2010 Gasol >>> 2002 Kobe

Plus the West was much weaker in the late 00's compared to the early 00's and Kobe had a 3rd All-Star level player in Odom coming off the bench.

Not even mentioning how the league changed its rules to benefit Kobe while they did the exact opposite to Shaq.

"Game Ova" lol. ;)

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 04:23 PM
Even if you judge him by his 06-08 regular season numbers I still think he was producing at the level of an All-Star.

Over that three year span in the regular season he averaged 15 / 10 / 5apg

Is that really roleplayer type production?

C'mon now.

Believe what you want but I consider Lakers Lamar an All-Star caliber player even if he was at times only a low level All-Star.


That does not make sense. So if your not a role player your a all-star? Odom did not play at the level of the All-Star PF's in the leauge. So how can he be All-star caliber. Odom was a very good player but not a all-star level player. when Compared to the real All-star PF's he was not on their level therefor he cant on and All-star level. Why? Because he was not paying at the LEVEL OF THE OTHER ALL-STARS. You cant just make up a level an say thats all-star level. All-star level is theactual level that the all-stars are playing at. lol

ShowtimeNo24
10-10-2012, 04:24 PM
lol... what kind of logic is this?

2009 Gasol >>> 2000 Kobe
2010 Gasol >>> 2002 Kobe

Plus the West was much weaker in the late 00's compared to the early 00's and Kobe had a 3rd All-Star level player in Odom coming off the bench.

Not even mentioning how the league changed its rules to benefit Kobe while they did the exact opposite to Shaq.

"Game Ova" lol. ;)

Trolling is an art :)

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 04:25 PM
Yes we have very different definitions. Mine is base on his actual play, but your seems to be more based on his talent. Which is fine, but for me you have to actually play like and all-star to be all-star level. To each his own.

So let's just say he didn't play at the level compared to real all-star PF's. But if all the all-star PF's got hurt he would have been at an All-star level player compared to what was left. ;)

My point is, there are plenty of players who never made an all star game who I think are better players then many players who did make an all star game.

Does that make sense? I think I might be doing a poor job of getting my point across haha.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 04:28 PM
My point is, there are plenty of players who never made an all star game who I think are better players then many players who did make an all star game.

Does that make sense? I think I might be doing a poor job of getting my point across haha.

Yup this is exactly how I feel also.
Being an All-Star or a Super-Star is about reaching a certain level of production and impact.

Making the actual "NBA" All-Star team is more about popularity and competition at your position.

You can be an All-Star level player and not make the team.
Didn't Love miss the team a year or two ago while putting up ungodly numbers?

Was he not an All-Star?

Hawkeye15
10-10-2012, 04:31 PM
Yup this is exactly how I feel also.
Being an All-Star or a Super-Star is about reaching a certain level of production and impact.

Making the actual "NBA" All-Star team is more about popularity and competition at your position.

You can be an All-Star level player and not make the team.
Didn't Love miss the team a year or two ago while putting up ungodly numbers?

Was he not an All-Star?

Furthermore, how many times does a player make an all star team for being on a elite team, and the NBA's stupid unwritten rule that the top couple of teams MUST have 2 all stars? Wally and Mo Williams fit this to a tee. Does anyone really think Wally was a better player than Lamar Odom, despite one being an all star, the other not?

dh144498
10-10-2012, 04:38 PM
Even if you judge him by his 06-08 regular season numbers I still think he was producing at the level of an All-Star.

Over that three year span in the regular season he averaged 15 / 10 / 5apg

Is that really roleplayer type production?

C'mon now.

Believe what you want but I consider Lakers Lamar an All-Star caliber player even if he was at times only a low level All-Star.

by your logic, you are admitting that Kobe was not 2nd option to Shaq during their 3peat, but 1a/1b. Since 29-6-5 and 25-6-6 in the regular season, and 29-7-6 and 27-6-5 in the playoffs in 2001 and 2002 are 1st option production. Game Ova. :cool:

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 04:46 PM
lol... what kind of logic is this?

2009 Gasol >>> 2000 Kobe
2010 Gasol >>> 2002 Kobe

Plus the West was much weaker in the late 00's compared to the early 00's and Kobe had a 3rd All-Star level player in Odom coming off the bench.

Not even mentioning how the league changed its rules to benefit Kobe while they did the exact opposite to Shaq.

"Game Ova" lol. ;)

When kobe wins it's odom was a 3rd all-star even though he avg 12pt and 9pt in those ships. But when shaq won and kobe avg 30 he wasnt a super star he was just an all star. Yeah your not a hater at all. :rolleyes:

Oh it was the rules, it ws the teams they played against. Man you got a 1000and 1 EXCUSES. But when sombody brought up all the garbage centers shaq played against that didnt matter. lmao! Your doing more flip floping than an olympic gymnast.

The fact is kobe's career trumps shaq's 10time out of ten. Shaq has played with like 10 HOf'ers and only got to 1 finals and did even win a game. And you respones to all those great player he had is kobe had "odom". lmmfao!

kobe has done more with FAR, FAR less. That's a fact.

amos1er
10-10-2012, 04:53 PM
I wouldn't say that.
Bynum was mostly a non-factor in 2009 even if he did contribute a few big games randomly throughout the playoffs.

In 2010 though he was a consist contributor throughout the playoffs dropping many big games and his size and length helped the Lakers dominate the boards and defend the paint.
He was a notable contributor in 2010.

A notable contributor in 2010???

Contributed a few big games randomly throughout the 2009 playoffs???

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2::laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2::laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

I'm sorry, but that one made me just crack up. In the 2010 playoffs, Bynum averaged 8.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, and 0.5 apg. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

My definition of a notable contributor to a championship team would be a Dennis Rodman, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobli, Jason Terry, Chris Bosh, or James Worthy. Bynum was no where near guys like this. He was a glorified role-player at best during those runs.

In 2010 Bynum was not even the 5th best contributor on the team. I would say that guys like Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, and Derrick Fisher all stepped up and contributed more than he did on that run. In 2009, He was at best the 6th best contributor again behind guys like Trevor Ariza, Derick Fisher, and Lamar Odom.

You say that Bynum had a few big games randomly throughout the 09 playoffs???

LMAO. He had 3 games out of 23 that were decent...hardly to be considered big games. 2 games he had 14 and 6, and one game with 14 and 5. He had two other games that could be considered subpar with 10 and 4 and 10 and 3. Other than that he was equal to a Marc Madsen or Samaki Walker.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01/gamelog/2009/

His overall averages for the 2009 playoffs were 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg. :facepalm:

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 04:54 PM
by your logic, you are admitting that Kobe was not 2nd option to Shaq during their 3peat, but 1a/1b. Since 29-6-5 and 25-6-6 in the regular season, and 29-7-6 and 27-6-5 in the playoffs in 2001 and 2002 are 1st option production. Game Ova. :cool:

Kobe was a Super-Star in 2001 but in terms of role he was still a supporting player to Shaq and in terms of actual impact/contribution he was a #2.

In 2002 he was not a Super-Star.
26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS is not Super-Star level production/impact.
It's the production/impact of a mid to high level All-Star.

Are those good numbers for a 1st option?
Not really.

Especially considering if you removed Shaq his overall numbers would only rise slightly and his efficiency
(which was already a putrid 51%) would be even lower.


Kobe has done more with FAR, FAR less. That's a fact.
Kobe as "the man" won less then Shaq despite having better teams and playing in a weaker era under rules that were changed to benefit his style of play.

mngopher35
10-10-2012, 04:54 PM
When kobe wins it's odom was a 3rd all-star even though he avg 12pt and 9pt in those ships. But when shaq won and kobe avg 30 he wasnt a super star he was just an all star. Yeah your not a hater at all. :rolleyes:

Oh it was the rules, it ws the teams they played against. Man you got a 1000and 1 EXCUSES. But when sombody brought up all the garbage centers shaq played against that didnt matter. lmao! Your doing more flip floping than an olympic gymnast.

The fact is kobe's career trumps shaq's 10time out of ten. Shaq has played with like 10 HOf'ers and only got to 1 finals and did even win a game. And you respones to all those great player he had is kobe had "odom". lmmfao!

kobe has done more with FAR, FAR less. That's a fact.

Shaq only made 1 finals? Actually he made it there 6 times total and here is his stat line in his 6 finals:

28.83ppg 13.1 rpg 3.43 apg 340/565 .602% shooting

FYI here is Kobes stat line in his 6 finals appearances:

25.3ppg 5.7 rpg 5.05 apg 333/808 .412% shooting

Shaq was more dominant than kobe in the regular season, playoffs, and finals. Ill take shaqs production everyday over kobes.

jayjay33
10-10-2012, 05:02 PM
My point is, there are plenty of players who never made an all star game who I think are better players then many players who did make an all star game.

Does that make sense? I think I might be doing a poor job of getting my point across haha.

No understand your point. But my point was that odom could not even make 1and was not all-star level. An since you qouted me to start. I assumed you where adressing my point, not making up a new one, not related to the one i was making about who's better, the guy who made it or the guy who didnt.

Odom has never played at the level of and NBA All-star PF. I mean at any given time they were 6 or 7 PF's in each conf better than him. thats not even All-star replacement level. let alone All-star level.

amos1er
10-10-2012, 05:08 PM
Kobe was a Super-Star in 2001 but in terms of role he was still a supporting player to Shaq and in terms of actual impact/contribution he was a #2.

In 2002 he was not a Super-Star.
26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS is not Super-Star level production/impact.
It's the production/impact of a mid to high level All-Star.

Are those good numbers for a 1st option?
Not really.

Especially considering if you removed Shaq his overall numbers would only rise slightly and his efficiency
(which was already a putrid 51%) would be even lower.


Kobe as "the man" won less then Shaq despite having better teams and playing in a weaker era under rules that were changed to benefit his style of play.

My my how your story changes lol. Before you said that Kobe was a low to mid level all-star, now your saying that he was a mid to high level all-star. Don't believe me, I can dig up plenty of your old posts claiming Kobe to be a mid to low level all-star.

Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between a high level all-star and a superstar?

dh144498
10-10-2012, 05:09 PM
Kobe was a Super-Star in 2001 but in terms of role he was still a supporting player to Shaq and in terms of actual impact/contribution he was a #2.

In 2002 he was not a Super-Star.
26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS is not Super-Star level production/impact.
It's the production/impact of a mid to high level All-Star.

Are those good numbers for a 1st option?
Not really.

Especially considering if you removed Shaq his overall numbers would only rise slightly and his efficiency
(which was already a putrid 51%) would be even lower.


Kobe as "the man" won less then Shaq despite having better teams and playing in a weaker era under rules that were changed to benefit his style of play.


there's no point on arguing with someone who thinks Gasol was better than Kobe in 2009 and/or 2010.
But I do think it's hilarious that you purposely inflate Kobe's stats down to make him look inferior while you round Lamar Odom's stats up.
Kobe in 2002 playoffs had 26.6-5.8-4.6, but you insist on putting 26-6-4.5.
While one of your previous posts of lamar odom's averages, you put rounded his numbers to 15-10-5 while his real stats were 14.9-9.9-4.6. When did 26.6 round up to 26? and why is 4.6 rounded to 4.5 in 1 case and rounded to 5 in another case? :laugh:
Again you clearly have your agendas where you find any possible way to discredit Kobe's accomplishments.

But the bolded part I just cannot understand... Kobe faced better teams in the finals from 2008 to 2010 than he faced from 2000 to 2002. As far as "a weaker era", early 2000's East was weak , but West has always been stacked for the whole 2000's.

Andrew32
10-10-2012, 05:10 PM
What is the difference between a high level all-star and a superstar?

Production and impact.

There are things that can't be judged by numbers though so to be 100% accurate I'd just say the difference is in oncourt impact.

dh144498
10-10-2012, 05:10 PM
My my how your story changes lol. Before you said that Kobe was a low to mid level all-star, now your saying that he was a mid to high level all-star. Don't believe me, I can dig up plenty of your old posts claiming Kobe to be a mid to low level all-star.

Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between a high level all-star and a superstar?

the dude has a ridiculous agenda. Just let him be.