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View Full Version : What do you think of James Harden overall?



JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 02:35 PM
Is he is star this season? Does he do a 360 as far as defense is concerned?

ewmania
10-08-2012, 02:37 PM
he's a star living with 2 other superstars, so he's underrated

I say his number will be similiar to last season... if he gets traded before the deadline which I believe , he'll put up superstar numbers somewhere else

Showtime Steve
10-08-2012, 02:38 PM
is he is star this season? Does he do a 360 as far as defense is concerned?

180?

superkegger
10-08-2012, 02:39 PM
His numbers will be about the same as last year, not really any way to up them on that team. But should he not be able to come to an extension and leaves OKC, I think he could be the 2nd best player on a championship team.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 02:40 PM
180?

Some think he is the worst player for defense in the league.


This is below regarding if Durant will be making All defensive teams soon.
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=22348058#post22348058

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-08-2012, 02:41 PM
you dont automtically become a defensive presence in an offseason, however, he is young, so i expect some improvements in all areas of his game. slight improvements.

IndyRealist
10-08-2012, 02:59 PM
Some think he is the worst player for defense in the league.


This is below regarding if Durant will be making All defensive teams soon.
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=22348058#post22348058

A 180 would be a turnaround. A 360 would be a full circle and back where he started.

KnicksorBust
10-08-2012, 03:02 PM
his numbers will be about the same as last year, not really any way to up them on that team. But should he not be able to come to an extension and leaves okc, i think he could be the 2nd best player on a championship team.

x2

KnicksorBust
10-08-2012, 03:04 PM
A shiny penny to whoever remembers the nba player who made that same mistake

still1ballin
10-08-2012, 03:06 PM
His numbers will be about the same as last year, not really any way to up them on that team. But should he not be able to come to an extension and leaves OKC, I think he could be the 2nd best player on a championship team.

wow man! where have you been?

Baller1
10-08-2012, 03:07 PM
Top 3 SG.

rsweene
10-08-2012, 03:10 PM
I thought James Harden was beast last year. Like Jason Terry he holds his own as a sixth man.

In the finals he shrunk kind of like how Lebron did in 2011. Hell grow hopefully and maybe make it back to the finals in the next 4 years

justinnum1
10-08-2012, 03:11 PM
was great up until the finals.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 03:18 PM
He was so bad in the playoffs last year.

He shot exactly 30% or lower in 7/21 playoff games and just around 40% in a few others.
He vanished in 3/5 games VS Miami.

I don't know why some people are so high on him.
He is talented and can be very good at times but he is horribly inconsistent offensively especially in terms of scoring from the field.

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 03:22 PM
He was so bad in the playoffs last year.

He shot exactly 30% or lower in 7/21 playoff games and just around 40% in a few others.
He vanished in 3/5 games VS Miami.

I don't know why some people are so high on him.
He is talented and can be very good at times but he is horribly inconsistent offensively especially in terms of scoring from the field.

:pity:

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 03:22 PM
He's a top 15 player to answer the OP.

superior
10-08-2012, 03:24 PM
yea jason kidd.....hes gonna do a 360 and be a completly different player!!!!! you jimmytheking boob

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 03:25 PM
you dont automtically become a defensive presence in an offseason, however, he is young, so i expect some improvements in all areas of his game. slight improvements.

He was a good defender in his rookie and sophomore season. He's not going to be a lockdown defender or nothing but he should be at least a plus player on that side of the court next season.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 03:25 PM
He was so bad in the playoffs last year.

He shot exactly 30% or lower in 7/21 playoff games and just around 40% in a few others.
He vanished in 3/5 games VS Miami.

I don't know why some people are so high on him.
He is talented and can be very good at times but he is horribly inconsistent offensively especially in terms of scoring from the field.

First that is completely WRONG. Secondly FG% is not the only stat one uses to ascertain how valuable a player is or is not especially when its as small a sample size as the post season.

You and this scoring from the field argument. Its so comedic. :laugh2:

LA>WORLD___KOBE
10-08-2012, 03:40 PM
He was so bad in the playoffs last year.

He shot exactly 30% or lower in 7/21 playoff games and just around 40% in a few others.
He vanished in 3/5 games VS Miami.

I don't know why some people are so high on him.
He is talented and can be very good at times but he is horribly inconsistent offensively especially in terms of scoring from the field.


Yeah lebron got smashed by the Spurs in 2007 in his first time in the finals....look at him now....i feel as though james harden will go through the same thing

douglas
10-08-2012, 03:42 PM
I think James Harden is a good basketball player. When he comes off the bench to play basketball, he makes a lot of points in comparison to lots of other players in the league that come off the bench. Most players that come off the bench do not make as much points as James Harden.

BH-Sports
10-08-2012, 03:43 PM
Lets just say I'll be watching him very closely this year. Still think he's way too overhyped for whatever reason. He knocks down wide open threes and gets to the foul line. What else?

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 03:46 PM
What is my agenda?
I am not a fan of Harden but I have zero reason to dislike him either.

What would putting him down do for me?

To prove your point. Why don't you use FG% when you're referring to Wilt?


If a dude is shooting 30% or worse in a huge % of games in a playoff run that is something I cannot easily ignore.

Yes he contributes in other way.
He can create and he gets to the line but that doesn't change the fact that he was horribly inefficient from the field in many playoff games.

He shot .375% or lower from the field in 10/21 playoff games.
In only 2/21 games did he get into the double digits in FGM.

Not like his playmaking was super spectacular either.
He got 5+ assists in only 5/21 games.

Plus he is not very good and he is inconsistent defensively.

1) So what he did in the regular season is irrelevant?
2) He wet the bed in the finals nobody denies that but your saying you don't understand why people are so high on him? Seriously? He was HISTORICALLY efficient for a guard last season.
3) It doesn't matter how much buckets you score, its about putting points on the board. He scored 16 points on TS% of .605 that's ****ing ridiculous production no matter how you slice it.
4) You're diminish the value of getting to the line as if it doesn't affect the outcomes of games.

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 03:49 PM
He's walking a tightrope though its not long again until he falls into that state of delusion as well.

Lol we'll see, I have a little faith in Andrew :)


Lets just say I'll be watching him very closely this year. Still think he's way too overhyped for whatever reason. He knocks down wide open threes and gets to the foul line. What else?

Even if he only did that what's so bad about that? Would you rather him take a shot with 2-3 defenders on him?

Jarvo
10-08-2012, 03:51 PM
If he leaves after the season he'll get exposed as not being good enough to be a top guy.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 03:53 PM
To prove your point. Why don't you use FG% when you're referring to Wilt?



1) So what he did in the regular season is irrelevant?
2) He wet the bed in the finals nobody denies that but your saying you don't understand why people are so high on him? Seriously? He was HISTORICALLY efficient for a guard last season.
3) It doesn't matter how much buckets you score, its about putting points on the board. He scored 16 points on TS% of .605 that's ****ing ridiculous production no matter how you slice it.
4) You're diminish the value of getting to the line as if it doesn't affect the outcomes of games.

STFU that doesn't matter all that matters is how he shot from the field in the post season his TS% doesn't reflect that so that is irrelevant :rolleyes:

:laugh2:

Heediot
10-08-2012, 03:55 PM
I like his skillset. Not a fan of the unconscious flopping/acting. Defiantly take him on my squad. He is a good 2nd or 3 rd option.

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 03:55 PM
STFU that doesn't matter all that matters is how he shot from the field in the post season his TS% doesn't reflect that so that is irrelevant :rolleyes:

:laugh2:

I thought adding some logic to this forum would be greatly appreciated, guess I was wrong. :sigh:

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 03:57 PM
1) Why don't you use FG% when you're referring to Wilt?
3) It doesn't matter how much buckets you score, its about putting points on the board. He scored 16 points on TS% of .605 that's ****ing ridiculous production no matter how you slice it.

#3.
Extremely poor efficiency from the field is still a negative thing even if a guy gets enough FT's to boost up his TS% to excellent levels.

#1.
I usually use FG% (not TS%) when talking about or criticizing Wilt's high scoring seasons.

jericho
10-08-2012, 04:13 PM
A 180 would be a turnaround. A 360 would be a full circle and back where he started.

lol

jericho
10-08-2012, 04:19 PM
He was so bad in the playoffs last year.

He shot exactly 30% or lower in 7/21 playoff games and just around 40% in a few others.
He vanished in 3/5 games VS Miami.

I don't know why some people are so high on him.
He is talented and can be very good at times but he is horribly inconsistent offensively especially in terms of scoring from the field.

i know everybody else is already proving you wrong but with that number you are saying that he played bad in 1/3 of the games he played thats not that bad he still gave em 14 good games :)

QueensG_718
10-08-2012, 04:22 PM
My thoughts on james harden is that he is the most overrated player on psd.

Baller1
10-08-2012, 04:47 PM
#3.
Extremely poor efficiency from the field is still a negative thing even if a guy gets enough FT's to boost up his TS% to excellent levels.

#1.
I usually use FG% (not TS%) when talking about or criticizing Wilt's high scoring seasons.

It was historically brilliant. In other words, almost nobody in the history of the league was able to accomplish Harden's scoring efficiency...

What exactly are you even trying to prove. The above statement alone proves Harden's worth.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 05:11 PM
It was historically brilliant. In other words, almost nobody in the history of the league was able to accomplish Harden's scoring efficiency...

ok ok.
2012 Harden = GOAT scorer.

Move over Jordan.

:rolleyes:

heyman321
10-08-2012, 05:14 PM
He's a choker. Absolutely dissapeared in the Finals.

superkegger
10-08-2012, 05:15 PM
If he leaves after the season he'll get exposed as not being good enough to be a top guy.

I don't think he thinks he's a franchise guy. I think though that there will be a market for his services, since he's borderline. Kinda like how Iggy got paid back in the day. I'm not sure the Thunder will be able to pony up the cash to keep him. You'd think he'd go the normal route and look for his payday.

abe_froman
10-08-2012, 05:17 PM
My thoughts on james harden is that he is the most overrated player on psd.

he's gotten overrated ,i agree.but still he did have a crazily efficient year last year,one for the ages...doubt he'll repeat it but still be damn good

meloman1592
10-08-2012, 05:19 PM
4th best 2guard in the league

Showtime Steve
10-08-2012, 05:27 PM
Although he probably can command top dollar, he isnt worth it. Cant handle a franchise by himself.

dh144498
10-08-2012, 05:27 PM
What I think of James Harden:
The next Ginobili (flopping wise)
I hate the dude's beard. Add on top the fact that he plain out sucked in the finals = I hate watching him play.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 05:32 PM
What I think of James Harden:
The next Ginobili (flopping wise)
I hate the dude's beard. Add on top the fact that he plain out sucked in the finals = I hate watching him play.

The next Manu is a good comparison.

KnicksorBust
10-08-2012, 05:34 PM
I like his skillset. Not a fan of the unconscious flopping/acting. Defiantly take him on my squad. He is a good 2nd or 3 rd option.

The most impressive aspect of Harden's season was not that he had a TS% of 66% or the fact that he also was a facilitator (around 4apg). It was Heediot's point about his skillset. Take a look at these numbers:

Isolation plays = 1.03ppp (7th in NBA)
P&R Ball Handler = 0.99ppp (9th in NBA)
Post-Up = 1.14ppp (unranked not enough attempts)
Spot-Up = 1.16ppp (28th in NBA)
Off Screen = 1.40ppp (1st in NBA)
Hand Off = 1.32ppp (1st in NBA)
Cut = 1.55ppp (3rd in NBA)
Offensive Rebound = 0.95 (unranked not enough attempts)
Transition = 1.24ppp (87th in NBA)
Overall = 1.10ppp (10th in NBA)

It's so rare to see a player not take a dip in effeciency across skills. He literally does everything well.

heyman321
10-08-2012, 05:47 PM
The most impressive aspect of Harden's season was not that he had a TS% of 66% or the fact that he also was a facilitator (around 4apg). It was Heediot's point about his skillset. Take a look at these numbers:

Isolation plays = 1.03ppp (7th in NBA)
P&R Ball Handler = 0.99ppp (9th in NBA)
Post-Up = 1.14ppp (unranked not enough attempts)
Spot-Up = 1.16ppp (28th in NBA)
Off Screen = 1.40ppp (1st in NBA)
Hand Off = 1.32ppp (1st in NBA)
Cut = 1.55ppp (3rd in NBA)
Offensive Rebound = 0.95 (unranked not enough attempts)
Transition = 1.24ppp (87th in NBA)
Overall = 1.10ppp (10th in NBA)

It's so rare to see a player not take a dip in effeciency across skills. He literally does everything well.

He also had a Choke Rate (they call it CR% in advanced stats) of 89%.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 05:50 PM
The most impressive aspect of Harden's season was not that he had a TS% of 66% or the fact that he also was a facilitator (around 4apg). It was Heediot's point about his skillset. Take a look at these numbers:

Isolation plays = 1.03ppp (7th in NBA)
P&R Ball Handler = 0.99ppp (9th in NBA)
Post-Up = 1.14ppp (unranked not enough attempts)
Spot-Up = 1.16ppp (28th in NBA)
Off Screen = 1.40ppp (1st in NBA)
Hand Off = 1.32ppp (1st in NBA)
Cut = 1.55ppp (3rd in NBA)
Offensive Rebound = 0.95 (unranked not enough attempts)
Transition = 1.24ppp (87th in NBA)
Overall = 1.10ppp (10th in NBA)

It's so rare to see a player not take a dip in effeciency across skills. He literally does everything well.

But but but but but but KoB he shot at or under 30% from the field in his 21 playoff games. He can't be a skilled player in the very least can he?

What's idiotic is that there is a certain poster who claims to know all there is to know about stats who will ignore these facts and still carry on about his FG% in 7 games in the post season. Which in every sense of the word is cherry-picking to prove a baseless point.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 05:51 PM
He also had a Choke Rate (they call it CR% in advanced stats) of 89%.

That's great do tell more.

Where did LeBron rank in the phenomenal CR%? How about MJ? Kobe? Dirk? C'mon dude don't be selfish do tell.

LaLa_Land
10-08-2012, 05:51 PM
Harden is a tremendous 6th man, easily the best in the league. The issue with these 6th men though is the simple fact that sometimes being the best bench player is their ceiling.

I highly doubt Harden can flip the switch and become the go-to guy in a ball-dominant role. His ceiling is realistically that of Ginobili's (not DWade, Melo, Kobe)...which is a compliment, not a hinderence.

People wonder why Iguodala has never turned into a go-to guy, or why Iverson could never make the players around him better, or why Bynum can't flip a switch to become dominant for a full game. Its simply because many players are incapable of taking a step into the elite. I am not saying Harden can't do it, i am saying that it is a lot to ask for. I also don't believe he's worthy of a max contract...I can see him turning into a Joe Johnson or Rashard Lewis if he is given a #1 option's pay because he simply isn't a number one.

He fits the 6th man role IDEALLY, if he goes to a team expecting him to be a superstar he will assuredly disappoint. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 5yr/55mil is good for a 6th man who struggled supremely in the spotlight of the finals. 80mil can and will lead to disappointment.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 05:55 PM
But but but but but but KoB he shot at or under 30% from the field in his 21 playoff games. He can't be a skilled player in the very least can he?

What's idiotic is that there is a certain poster who claims to know all there is to know about stats who will ignore these facts and still carry on about his FG% in 7 games in the post season. Which in every sense of the word is cherry-picking to prove a baseless point.
Ok I'll admit I was probably proven wrong in terms of how I judged his effectiveness.

However efficiency from the field DOES matter and Harden's efficiency from the field sucked bawlz in a huge % of his playoff games and his CR was 89% which is probably highest in the league.

I just am not that hot on scorers who don't consistently get it done from the field and rely on the whistle.

The_Jamal
10-08-2012, 05:57 PM
The most impressive aspect of Harden's season was not that he had a TS% of 66% or the fact that he also was a facilitator (around 4apg). It was Heediot's point about his skillset. Take a look at these numbers:

Isolation plays = 1.03ppp (7th in NBA)
P&R Ball Handler = 0.99ppp (9th in NBA)
Post-Up = 1.14ppp (unranked not enough attempts)
Spot-Up = 1.16ppp (28th in NBA)
Off Screen = 1.40ppp (1st in NBA)
Hand Off = 1.32ppp (1st in NBA)
Cut = 1.55ppp (3rd in NBA)
Offensive Rebound = 0.95 (unranked not enough attempts)
Transition = 1.24ppp (87th in NBA)
Overall = 1.10ppp (10th in NBA)

It's so rare to see a player not take a dip in effeciency across skills. He literally does everything well.

Harden sucks

:cool:

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 06:09 PM
Ok I'll admit I was probably proven wrong in terms of how I judged his effectiveness.

However efficiency from the field DOES matter and Harden's efficiency from the field sucked bawlz in a huge % of his playoff games and his CR was 89% which is probably highest in the league.

I just am not that hot on scorers who don't consistently get it done from the field and rely on the whistle.

Sweet Baby Jesus.... It's been over a year since I have facepalmed someone but I think it has reached its peak right here :facepal argh I just can't do it :pity:

Harden shot 49% from the field last season and 39% from the arc how on this planet or any other planet does he suck balls from the field?

Kashmir13579
10-08-2012, 06:10 PM
A shiny penny to whoever remembers the nba player who made that same mistake

Joe Johnson.

KnicksorBust
10-08-2012, 06:12 PM
But but but but but but KoB he shot at or under 30% from the field in his 21 playoff games. He can't be a skilled player in the very least can he?

What's idiotic is that there is a certain poster who claims to know all there is to know about stats who will ignore these facts and still carry on about his FG% in 7 games in the post season. Which in every sense of the word is cherry-picking to prove a baseless point.

At this point it is what it is. I get why people doubt him but I just feel like the numbers throw that out the window. It's not that he's good as a 3rd option. It's not that he's really good. It's that the guy is unreal as a 3rd option.

It makes me think of Trevor Ariza. Remember Trevor Ariza on the Lakers? He had a TS% of 54% and helped them win a title. Then he got overpaid to go play for the Rockets and eventually the Hornets. In a new situation where he was forced to do more his TS% plummetted to 49%. Makes sense right?

What? Not a good enough comparison? I agree. How bout Joe Johnson?

#3 option on the Suns. Joe Johnson scored 17ppg on 56%TS% with Steve Freakin Nash at PG and Amar'e Stoudemire taking the pressure off him. Goes to Atlanta. #1 Option. What happens to his TS%?

Nothing.

In fact last season at the age of 30 (7 years removed from Phoenix) he beat out his best Phoenix season while scoring 19ppg.

I get that people think Harden would fall off if he was forced to carry the load but even if he does... how far down do you have to go from 66%TS% for it to even matter?? The guy does EVERYTHING well and gets to the line like a machine. I think he'd be a phenomenal #2 option on a team with like a Bosh-Aldridge type big... :)

SugeKnight
10-08-2012, 06:15 PM
A shiny penny to whoever remembers the nba player who made that same mistake
J Kidd, right?

KingPosey
10-08-2012, 06:17 PM
Some think he is the worst player for defense in the league.


This is below regarding if Durant will be making All defensive teams soon.
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=22348058#post22348058

ya but if he does a 360, that puts him exactly back where he was JB.

KingPosey
10-08-2012, 06:19 PM
But but but but but but KoB he shot at or under 30% from the field in his 21 playoff games. He can't be a skilled player in the very least can he?

What's idiotic is that there is a certain poster who claims to know all there is to know about stats who will ignore these facts and still carry on about his FG% in 7 games in the post season. Which in every sense of the word is cherry-picking to prove a baseless point.

ya, you'd never bring up something pointless to try and prove something pointless.

SugeKnight
10-08-2012, 06:19 PM
Harden's good, but he's overrated. I'd take wade, kobe, manu, monta, and maybe jj and gordon (if he can stay healthy) all before harden

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 06:30 PM
Harden shot 49% from the field last season and 39% from the arc how on this planet or any other planet does he suck balls from the field?

40% or lower in 11/21 playoff games
30% or lower in 7/21 playoff games

balls :guns:

Even old Kobe was better from the field on higher volume.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 06:38 PM
40% or lower in 11/21 playoff games
30% or lower in 7/21 playoff games

balls :guns:

Even old Kobe was better from the field on higher volume.

Tell me more about CR%

James Harden also played 20 games in the post season not 21 5 of which he shot at under 30% NOT 7.

Tell me this however does 20 games outweigh 82? In your expert statistical analysis.

Oh and don't forget tell me more about CR% where Harden ranks last in the league. Don't leave this part out of your next quote.

Corey
10-08-2012, 06:41 PM
I dunno how great he will be as a #1 option. He's struggled when he's on the floor without KD or Westy.

I think he's a really good player, I he's easily one of my favorites to watch, but I'm not sure about what to expect from him as a full time starter and top perimeter option on his own team.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 06:45 PM
Tell me more about CR%

James Harden also played 20 games in the post season not 21 5 of which he shot at under 30% NOT 7.

Tell me this however does 20 games outweigh 82? In your expert statistical analysis.

Oh and don't forget tell me more about CR% where Harden ranks last in the league. Don't leave this part out of your next quote.
CR% is not my stat so don't make me explain it. :injury:

Harden shot 30% or lower in 7 games I didn't say below 30%.
Some of them were exactly 30% or .0001% higher then it.

The regular season does matter but the playoffs are more important imo.

Wilt might have been the best regular season performer ever but his frequently disappointing post season performances are why I don't rank him in my Top 5.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 07:09 PM
CR% is not my stat so don't make me explain it. :injury:

No you quoted CR% :laugh2: :laugh: as one of your reasons as to why you think Harden is not as good as advertised well back your stance. You said he ranks among the worst in the league well back it. You told me before you know more about stats than I do well tell me a thing or two about CR% :laugh2: :laugh2: for all I know 89% :laugh2: can make him elite.


Harden shot 30% or lower in 7 games I didn't say below 30%.
Some of them were exactly 30% or .0001% higher then it.

Wait you broke his FG% down to .0001% you must be a mathematical genius :worthy:


The regular season does matter but the playoffs are more important imo.

I asked you a SIMPLE question. Does 20 games (not 21 :rolleyes: ) outweigh 82?


Wilt might have been the best regular season performer ever but his frequently disappointing post season performances are why I don't rank him in my Top 5.

That's all well and fine. That's the way you see Wilt. Harden isn't Wilt so I see no correlation here.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 07:13 PM
for all I know 89% :laugh2: can make him elite.

Wait you broke his FG% down to .0001% you must be a mathematical genius :worthy:

I asked you a SIMPLE question. Does 20 games (not 21 :rolleyes: ) outweigh 82?


1) 89% is not elite its amongst the worst 10 players in the league that are All-Star level or better.

2) I wouldn't go that far but I am good with small numbers.

3) Yes they do since I put more value on the playoffs then I do on the regular season.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 07:17 PM
1) 89% is not elite its amongst the worst 10 players in the league that are All-Star level or better.

2) I wouldn't go that far but I am good with small numbers.

3) Yes they do since I put more value on the playoffs then I do on the regular season.

Link please :laugh2:

Also you are trying to tell me that Harden is a poor shooter because he shot poorly last post season right? What do you think of Ray Allen as a shooter?

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 07:23 PM
Link please :laugh2:

Also you are trying to tell me that Harden is a poor shooter because he shot poorly last post season right? What do you think of Ray Allen as a shooter?
I think Harden was a very inconsistent shooter in the 2012 playoffs.

In about 50% of his playoff games he shot poorly from the field.

Although I haven't examined his 2012 regular season in depth he does appear to have been a very efficient shooter during it.

I am not calling Harden a poor shooter and tbh I am not familiar enough with him to give an opinion on that.

My current opinion would be that he is a decent/good but inconsistent shooter but again I can't confidently speak about that without doing more research.

Lakers + Giants
10-08-2012, 07:24 PM
I think James Harden is a good basketball player. When he comes off the bench to play basketball, he makes a lot of points in comparison to lots of other players in the league that come off the bench. Most players that come off the bench do not make as much points as James Harden.

your **** got old, fast.

Lakers4life08
10-08-2012, 07:29 PM
c;*** player,not have superstar talent

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 07:33 PM
I think Harden was a very inconsistent shooter in the 2012 playoffs.

In about 50% of his playoff games he shot poorly from the field.

Although I haven't examined his 2012 regular season in depth he does appear to have been a very efficient shooter during it.

I am not calling Harden a poor shooter and tbh I am not familiar enough with him to give an opinion on that.

My current opinion would be that he is a decent/good but inconsistent shooter but again I can't confidently speak about that without doing more research.

Give me a link to CR% where he ranks as one of the top 10 worst players at All Star level stop dodging back your point.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 07:36 PM
Give me a link to CR% where he ranks as one of the top 10 worst players at All Star level stop dodging back your point.

www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012_advanced_stats/CRating.html

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 08:04 PM
www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012_advanced_stats/CRating.html

You gotta do better than that child not everyone on the internet is as foolish as you think. If you think I'm some kind of idiot you got another thing coming.

Stop being a fake and own up to your ****.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 08:07 PM
You gotta do better than that child not everyone on the internet is as foolish as you think. If you think I'm some kind of idiot you got another thing coming.

Stop being a fake and own up to your ****.
Do you really think Choke Rating is a real stat?
It might be who knows, lol.

Pretty sure Harden would be Top 10 in it after last years Finals.

Anyway I was joking around and I assumed you knew that.

Jeez :facepalm:
Why so serious?

And no I don't think you're an idiot.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 08:10 PM
Do you really think Choke Rating is a real stat?
It might be who knows, lol.

Pretty sure Harden would be Top 10 in it after last years Finals.

Anyway I was joking around and I assumed you knew that.

Jeez :facepalm:
Why so serious?

And no I don't think you're an idiot.

Yeah we know you were joking :rolleyes:

The_Jamal
10-08-2012, 08:15 PM
Harden sucked in the finals. That matters more than 70+ other game sample size of him being awesome

KnicksorBust
10-08-2012, 08:16 PM
I dunno how great he will be as a #1 option. He's struggled when he's on the floor without KD or Westy.

I think he's a really good player, I he's easily one of my favorites to watch, but I'm not sure about what to expect from him as a full time starter and top perimeter option on his own team.

Well that is just wrong. Either chronz or chisox posted the opposite stats to your opinion. He plays better running the show. Im on my phone but if someone could find it in that old harden thead its there.

The_Jamal
10-08-2012, 08:19 PM
Well that is just wrong. Either chronz or chisox posted the opposite stats to your opinion. He plays better running the show. Im on my phone but if someone could find it in that old harden thead its there.

What's the talent level he's doing that against though? It's not like he's in at the end of the game without Durant and Westy as well.

I like Harden a lot, but it's a legitimate concern to as how he would react to being the sole focus of a defense for the entire game.

Bruno
10-08-2012, 08:27 PM
I am 100% with Swash, ballhog24, KOB, Baller and others.

sorry andrew, you don't understand TS%.

PocketKings
10-08-2012, 08:31 PM
I think Harden has kidnapped a few magical small creatures and hid them in his beard to bestow upon him powers unmatched by any other living being.

As far as basketball prowess, I think he is overrated to a certain extent. I understand that he has unreal and uncanny efficiency, but I think he is still overrated.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 08:40 PM
I am 100% with Swash, ballhog24, KOB, Baller and others.

sorry andrew, you don't understand TS%.
What does TS% have to do with Harden's struggles from the field?
You're just taking a shot at me for whatever reason.

I understand TS% just fine its not a very complicated stat.

Bruno
10-08-2012, 08:49 PM
What does TS% have to do with Harden's struggles from the field?
You're just taking a shot at me for whatever reason.

I understand TS% just fine its not a very complicated stat.

your failure to understand that overall scoring efficiency isn't just relegated to FG% goes hand-in-hand with as to why you shrug off the significance of TS% as the most sound measurement of overall scoring efficiency. although, you're a big Shaq fan, I don't expect you to accept TS% as much as the rest of us have.

no shots are being taken. although I am calling you out for cherry-picking stats when they serve your argument. a characteristic that is becoming your trademark.

even when you annoy me (you do a great job), I still enjoy our battles, don't take it personally, I just think you're wrong. james harden had a great season, had a great western-conference playoff performance, and was an extremely efficient scorer. :cheers:

Baller1
10-08-2012, 09:23 PM
The only argument I've seen against Harden goes as follows:

"I concede that he scored at a historical rate and does many things very well... But **** him, I'm right".

I'll take the factual evidence, you guys can have your flawed opinions.

D-Leethal
10-08-2012, 09:32 PM
Andrew might have passed Domefavors as biggest moron on PSD. I feel bad for the respectable posters who don't have enough traffic in their team forum to get to avoid this place. NBA forum is such a wasteland.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 09:38 PM
Andrew might have passed Domefavors as biggest moron on PSD. I feel bad for the respectable posters who don't have enough traffic in their team forum to get to avoid this place. NBA forum is such a wasteland.
It's a good thing you don't speak for PSD.
No one cares what you think.

your failure to understand that overall scoring efficiency isn't just relegated to FG% goes hand-in-hand with as to why you shrug off the significance of TS% as the most sound measurement of overall scoring efficiency. although, you're a big Shaq fan, I don't expect you to accept TS% as much as the rest of us have.
I accept TS% but it has its flaws.

Poor efficiency from the field means a player is wasting valuable possessions while producing nothing most of the time.
Said player might get to the line enough to end up with a good TS% but that doesn't change the detriment his missed shots had for his team while he wasted valuable possessions.
It also can reflect at times a player who is reliant on the whistle which is not exactly a good trait.

Baller1
10-08-2012, 09:47 PM
It's a good thing you don't speak for PSD.
No one cares what you think.

I accept TS% but it has its flaws.

Poor efficiency from the field means a player is wasting valuable possessions while producing nothing most of the time.
Said player might get to the line enough to end up with a good TS% but that doesn't change the detriment his missed shots had for his team while he wasted valuable possessions.
It also can reflect at times a player who is reliant on the whistle which is not exactly a good trait.

So in other words, "Free throws are boring. He makes too many free throws, and I want to see crazy shots and highlight dunks".

That's fine and dandy, but the fact remains that Harden scores with ease, and more efficiently than just about any SG ever. You've still provided nothing for the other end of this argument.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 09:52 PM
So in other words, "Free throws are boring. He makes too many free throws, and I want to see crazy shots and highlight dunks".

That's fine and dandy, but the fact remains that Harden scores with ease, and more efficiently than just about any SG ever. You've still provided nothing for the other end of this argument.

How about this.

Kobe in G3 of the 2012 2nd round.
9-25 from the field (36%)
0-1 from 3pt.

18-18 from the line
Overall he had a 55%TS

Those 16 wasted possessions dont matter?
Great offensive performance?

JLynn943
10-08-2012, 09:54 PM
What's the talent level he's doing that against though? It's not like he's in at the end of the game without Durant and Westy as well.

I like Harden a lot, but it's a legitimate concern to as how he would react to being the sole focus of a defense for the entire game.

This is pretty much my thought as well. I'd love to see the stats being referred to, but as all I have to go on is my memory, I do seem to remember Harden still getting heavy minutes while the Thunder were up by a lot. That could certainly skew statistics for his play without Durant/Westbrook.

No doubt Harden is a very good player, but I'd be leery of having him as my #1 option so far. I think he has the skill set for it, I'd just want to see some splits vs above average defenders to get a better idea of how he handles it.

Baller1
10-08-2012, 09:57 PM
How about this.

Kobe in G3 of the 2012 2nd round.
9-25 from the field (36%)
0-1 from 3pt.

18-18 from the line
Overall he had a 55%TS

Those 16 wasted possessions dont matter?
Great offensive performance?

James Harden ended with a TS% over 65. Soooo, what you just said is absolutely, 100% irrelevant.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 10:17 PM
James Harden ended with a TS% over 65. Soooo, what you just said is absolutely, 100% irrelevant.

Why do you think Harden was soo bad in the finals?

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 10:27 PM
#3. Extremely poor efficiency from the field is still a negative thing even if a guy gets enough FT's to boost up his TS% to excellent levels.


:laugh: Why cause you say so?


#1.
I usually use FG% (not TS%) when talking about or criticizing Wilt's high scoring seasons.

So you agree that 72-73 Wilt is the greatest scoring season ever?


He also had a Choke Rate (they call it CR% in advanced stats) of 89%.

What's Dirk's level 100?


Ok I'll admit I was probably proven wrong in terms of how I judged his effectiveness.

Kinda love how you just gloss over this fact but whatever.


However efficiency from the field DOES matter and Harden's efficiency from the field sucked bawlz in a huge % of his playoff games and his CR was 89% which is probably highest in the league.

It only matters if you can't get to the line enough to offset it. Quick question who's the better scorer, Rudy Gay or Granger?


I just am not that hot on scorers who don't consistently get it done from the field and rely on the whistle.

Maybe its cause your boy Shaq can't hit free throw :D


At this point it is what it is. I get why people doubt him but I just feel like the numbers throw that out the window. It's not that he's good as a 3rd option. It's not that he's really good. It's that the guy is unreal as a 3rd option.

It makes me think of Trevor Ariza. Remember Trevor Ariza on the Lakers? He had a TS% of 54% and helped them win a title. Then he got overpaid to go play for the Rockets and eventually the Hornets. In a new situation where he was forced to do more his TS% plummetted to 49%. Makes sense right?

What? Not a good enough comparison? I agree. How bout Joe Johnson?

#3 option on the Suns. Joe Johnson scored 17ppg on 56%TS% with Steve Freakin Nash at PG and Amar'e Stoudemire taking the pressure off him. Goes to Atlanta. #1 Option. What happens to his TS%?

Nothing.

In fact last season at the age of 30 (7 years removed from Phoenix) he beat out his best Phoenix season while scoring 19ppg.

I get that people think Harden would fall off if he was forced to carry the load but even if he does... how far down do you have to go from 66%TS% for it to even matter?? The guy does EVERYTHING well and gets to the line like a machine. I think he'd be a phenomenal #2 option on a team with like a Bosh-Aldridge type big... :)

Which is why I would kill for him to come on the Blazers. Harden and Lma PnR :drool:


What's the talent level he's doing that against though? It's not like he's in at the end of the game without Durant and Westy as well.

I like Harden a lot, but it's a legitimate concern to as how he would react to being the sole focus of a defense for the entire game.

If you're a good offensive player more often than not you're not coming off the bench with the obvious exceptions being Harden, Terry, LO, etc. Mostly defensive specialist come of the bench.

jam
10-08-2012, 10:31 PM
It's really painful watching OKC play "basketball," so I can't really assess Harden fairly. I did watch him play a lot in the playoffs this season, and he shot the ball very poorly.

OKC is a young squad which gets by almost exclusively on it's athleticism. Scott Brooks is a horrible coach IMO, so as long as he's at the "helm," expect Harden to keep chucking the ball up and scoring at a high rate.

The only upside for OKC is that their stars are all young. If they ever hired a real coach, the sky is the limit. I'm bowled over they made the finals. Perhaps coaching doesn't make a difference at all in the NBA.

HotMayo
10-08-2012, 10:57 PM
I wish he was on the pistons :(

Baller1
10-08-2012, 11:51 PM
Why do you think Harden was soo bad in the finals?

No clue... Caught up in the moment, I guess. Really no other excuse. I think he'll be alright though.

mrblisterdundee
10-08-2012, 11:53 PM
James Harden is about to break into stardom. Even on #NBARank, he's just outside the top 20 players. I still see his ceiling close to Manu Ginobili, who's ironically one rank higher than Harden.

SINCESTARBURY25
10-09-2012, 12:12 AM
I wish we had him hes such a solid 2 guard.

MetroMan
10-09-2012, 12:16 AM
maybe him being 22 during the finals got him intimidated.

Arch Stanton
10-09-2012, 01:08 AM
Love to have him on the Cavs!

jam
10-09-2012, 01:19 AM
James Harden is about to break into stardom. Even on #NBARank, he's just outside the top 20 players. I still see his ceiling close to Manu Ginobili, who's ironically one rank higher than Harden.

Two very different players. I love Manu and based upon what little I've seen of Harden, I don't think Harden can carry Manu's jock strap.

Baller1
10-09-2012, 01:25 AM
Two very different players. I love Manu and based upon what little I've seen of Harden, I don't think Harden can carry Manu's jock strap.

Well, watch more Harden then... He's very, very similar to Manu.

Chronz
10-09-2012, 01:33 AM
Two very different players. I love Manu and based upon what little I've seen of Harden, I don't think Harden can carry Manu's jock strap.

Manu was an old vet when you saw him

P Harvy
10-09-2012, 01:33 AM
A 180 would be a turnaround. A 360 would be a full circle and back where he started.

Lol this reminds me Jason Kidd when he came into the league and said that exact same thing about turning the team around 360 degrees lol

Raph12
10-09-2012, 01:51 AM
He shot the ball extremely well last season, I don't know if he's just a very good shooter or if it was just a good year... I expect similar numbers, considering he comes off the bench in limited minutes and has to share the ball with WB and KD.

As far as defense goes, I'm not a believer in the "it's strictly an effort thing" ideology, so we may see a slight improvement, but I don't see him doing a full 180 (360 would imply that he did the full circle and is back to where he started).

jerellh528
10-09-2012, 03:27 AM
Ok I'll admit I was probably proven wrong in terms of how I judged his effectiveness.

However efficiency from the field DOES matter and Harden's efficiency from the field sucked bawlz in a huge % of his playoff games and his CR was 89% which is probably highest in the league.

I just am not that hot on scorers who don't consistently get it done from the field and rely on the whistle.

you love wade though lol:p

jerellh528
10-09-2012, 03:29 AM
I may be in the minority here, but he is only 22, I for one think he will be better than manu, and in a few years(3) be the top SG in the nba.

Steelers23_06
10-09-2012, 03:34 AM
i dont know i think its hard to tell because who he plays with and dont think we will know until after he leaves OKC. i remember everyone had a similiar opinion of ben gordon that he was a solid third option that could light it up given the chance and was oozing with potential. a lot of people even predicted the pistons to be a playoff team mainly because of him and then he never materialized. im not saying they play alike or anything im just saying that could happen to harden when he doesnt have the advantage of getting those quality shots and has to set up more for himself. i say give it time before i can stand behind my quote because i lean more toward then good player in a great situation more then a great player being overshadowed by greater players.

John Walls Era
10-09-2012, 03:47 AM
Best SG in the NBA if you listen to those on pSD.

Shytown
10-09-2012, 12:39 PM
He's a very good player but I have to wait to see how he performs during next year playoffs.
Will he be one of those players who's great during the season, but doesn't show up during the biggest moments [which was the playoffs].

He's a very good player though.

Blitzbolt
10-09-2012, 12:41 PM
To much one on one I want to see him do other things like play great D and shoot off screens.

koreancabbage
10-09-2012, 12:42 PM
you love wade though lol:p

but wade gets it done with or without the whistle.

b@llhog24
10-09-2012, 03:09 PM
To much one on one I want to see him do other things like play great D and shoot off screens.

He's great in isolation and shooting off of screens.

KnicksorBust
10-09-2012, 03:12 PM
To much one on one I want to see him do other things like play great D and shoot off screens.

I wish you had taken the time to look back in the thread.



Isolation plays = 1.03ppp (7th in NBA)
P&R Ball Handler = 0.99ppp (9th in NBA)
Post-Up = 1.14ppp (unranked not enough attempts)
Spot-Up = 1.16ppp (28th in NBA)
Off Screen = 1.40ppp (1st in NBA)
Hand Off = 1.32ppp (1st in NBA)
Cut = 1.55ppp (3rd in NBA)
Offensive Rebound = 0.95 (unranked not enough attempts)
Transition = 1.24ppp (87th in NBA)
Overall = 1.10ppp (10th in NBA)



Even I'll concede he needs to prove more on the defensive end but offensively we'll have to agree to disagree. He was wildly successful with virtually every traceable skill.