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Jeffy25
10-07-2012, 01:37 PM
For all MLB options

Rush
10-07-2012, 01:43 PM
Hunter Pence should be the NL MVP. 5th most RBI in the NL (everyone else above him are playing golf right no), 24HR, and his team is in the Postseason.

MetsFanatic19
10-07-2012, 01:43 PM
I'll just restate what I said in the second thread because I want to honestly get an answer.

If you want Miggy to win MVP because the Tigers made the playoffs, do you think Cespedes should win ROTY because the A's made the playoffs and the Angels didn't.

That's just a prime example on why team record should have zero effect on the MVP race.

TrueYankee
10-07-2012, 01:44 PM
Whoever has the most HR's, RBI's should win the MVP.

Whoever has the lowest era should win cy young.

Whosever team has the best record, should win manager of the year.

No buts.

Rush
10-07-2012, 01:45 PM
Whoever has the most HR's, RBI's should win the MVP.

Whoever has the lowest era should win cy young.

Whosever team has the best record, should win manager of the year.

No buts.

This. Beautiful post. :clap:

TrueYankee
10-07-2012, 01:45 PM
I'll just restate what I said in the second thread because I want to honestly get an answer.

If you want Miggy to win MVP because the Tigers made the playoffs, do you think Cespedes should win ROTY because the A's made the playoffs and the Angels didn't.

That's just a prime example on why team record should have zero effect on the MVP race.

No. MIggy should win the MVP because he won the triple crown.

EDIT: But Trout will get a lot of votes. It will be close.

Mr. LA
10-07-2012, 02:00 PM
Whoever has the most HR's, RBI's should win the MVP.

Whoever has the lowest era should win cy young.

Whosever team has the best record, should win manager of the year.

No buts.

yep

long ball
10-07-2012, 02:57 PM
I think Posey and Cabrera will win MVP pretty easily. I'll be fine with that.

A lot of good candidates in both leagues for CY.

Trout and Harper are most likely winning ROY and I'm good with that.

I don't really care about any other award other than silver slugger.

MetsFanatic19
10-07-2012, 03:01 PM
Who wins the Rolaids Relief Man Award? Kimbrel or Chap?

I'd take Kimbrel but Chapman can't be too far behind.

Pittz
10-07-2012, 03:04 PM
Kimbrel should for sure.

sexicano31
10-07-2012, 03:20 PM
Then leave

long ball
10-07-2012, 03:22 PM
Who wins the Rolaids Relief Man Award? Kimbrel or Chap?

I'd take Kimbrel but Chapman can't be too far behind.

Both were fantastic but Kimbrel was better.

xnick5757
10-07-2012, 03:22 PM
difference in run expectancy (RE) between the start of a play and the end of a play

2012 leaders:

1. Mike Trout: +56.52 runs
2. Edwin Encarnacion: +54.44 runs
3. Prince Fielder: +48.12 runs
4. Joe Mauer: +46.51 runs
5. Miguel Cabrera: +45.18 runs

Fly
10-07-2012, 04:33 PM
Whoever has the most HR's, RBI's should win the MVP.

Whoever has the lowest era should win cy young.

Whosever team has the best record, should win manager of the year.

No buts.

Don't forget the winzzz!!!!!!!!

1903
10-07-2012, 04:36 PM
Whoever has the most HR's, RBI's should win the MVP.

Whoever has the lowest era should win cy young.

Whosever team has the best record, should win manager of the year.

No buts.

1. You forgot that their team has to make the post season!

2. Not the lowest ERA but the most wins!

3. Whichever team hits the most HRs!

SuperiorState
10-07-2012, 06:01 PM
I know it is a newer award and no one really cares but who wins the Hank Aaron award?

My votes are Cabrera for AL and Braun for NL

Rush
10-07-2012, 06:07 PM
That's who it should go too. Now that's a hitting contest award.

cg_la00
10-08-2012, 06:27 PM
braun cant win, his team didnt make the playoffs :p

Drow17
10-08-2012, 07:45 PM
AL MVP - Cabrera
NL MVP - Posey
AL Cy Young - either Price or Weaver
NL Cy Young - either Dickey or Gonzalez
AL ROY - Trout
NL ROY - Harper or Frazier

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 07:49 PM
NL MVP: Dylan
AL MVP: Dylan
NL Cy Young: Dylan
AL Cy Young: Dylan
NL ROY: Dylan
AL ROY: Dylan

jej
10-08-2012, 08:09 PM
AL MVP - Cabrera
NL MVP - Posey
AL Cy Young - either Price or Weaver
NL Cy Young - either Dickey or Gonzalez
AL ROY - Trout
NL ROY - Harper or Frazier

What?

Fly
10-08-2012, 08:27 PM
I laugh at people who think Weaver should be close to talks with guys like JV, Felix and Price for CY. That's truly people only looking at W-L record and ERA.

jej
10-08-2012, 08:53 PM
For da lulz:

Weaver: 2.81 ERA, 3.75 FIP, 4.18 xFIP, 6.77 K/9, 0.95 HR/9

Rush
10-08-2012, 09:00 PM
Da winz

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 09:15 PM
I know it is a newer award and no one really cares but who wins the Hank Aaron award?

My votes are Cabrera for AL and Braun for NL

Considering Aramis Ramirez won it in 08, we shouldn't expect it to be any better


The fans vote on it, so Miggy for sure, and either Posey or Braun in the NL

SuperiorState
10-08-2012, 09:18 PM
;)
braun cant win, his team didnt make the playoffs :p

You are right. Therefore I will wait here and accept the 2011 Hank Aaron award from Matt Kemp on Braun's behalf. ;)




Let's go Kemp! I haven't got all day! :p

MetsFanatic19
10-08-2012, 09:36 PM
The Yankees had the highest average fan attendance in the American League.

Therefore, neither Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera are deserving of the 2012 American League Most Valuable Player award.

jej
10-08-2012, 10:23 PM
Considering Aramis Ramirez won it in 08, we shouldn't expect it to be any better


The fans vote on it, so Miggy for sure, and either Posey or Braun in the NL

Lets get tons of people to vote Trout so then no one can say Miggy was better in any area!

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 10:27 PM
Lets get tons of people to vote Trout so then no one can say Miggy was better in any area!

Felix for Cy Young!

Why do you dislike Miggy so much?

Drow17
10-08-2012, 10:40 PM
I laugh at people who think Weaver should be close to talks with guys like JV, Felix and Price for CY. That's truly people only looking at W-L record and ERA.

Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Weaver and Price were in a whole different league of pitching this year. Yeah, Hernandez threw a perfect game. But so did Philip Humber. I don't see anybody throwing his name in the Cy Young discussion.

Colinsanity
10-08-2012, 10:44 PM
The Yankees had the highest average fan attendance in the American League.

Therefore, neither Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera are deserving of the 2012 American League Most Valuable Player award.

Wait, so the Yankee's fans are the ones who should be winning the MVP award?
It's Miguel Cabrera without a doubt, anyone who thinks otherwise may have an IQ deficiency.

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 10:44 PM
Who finishes second in AL ROY? Darvish or Cespedes?

Fly
10-08-2012, 10:45 PM
No... wins and losses tell you jackshit about a pitcher, and ERA has many flaws of its own.

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 10:47 PM
Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Weaver and Price were in a whole different league of pitching this year. Yeah, Hernandez threw a perfect game. But so did Philip Humber. I don't see anybody throwing his name in the Cy Young discussion.

Verlander and Felix's number are both much better than Weaver.

Drow17
10-08-2012, 10:48 PM
No... wins and losses tell you jackshit about a pitcher, and ERA has many flaws of its own.

Would you mind enlightening me on that a little bit? I don't see how the lower a pitcher's ERA is can negatively reflect his performance. I'm pretty sure most managers would rather pick a guy with an ERA of 2.00 over a guy with an ERA of 75.00

Rush
10-08-2012, 10:48 PM
Wait, so the Yankee's fans are the ones who should be winning the MVP award?
It's Miguel Cabrera without a doubt, anyone who thinks otherwise may have an IQ deficiency.

No. Trout should win MVP.

Fly
10-08-2012, 10:49 PM
The Yankees had the highest average fan attendance in the American League.

Therefore, neither Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera are deserving of the 2012 American League Most Valuable Player award.

Wait, so the Yankee's fans are the ones who should be winning the MVP award?
It's Miguel Cabrera without a doubt, anyone who thinks otherwise may have an IQ deficiency.

I honestly hope - for your sake - that you're just kidding in the bolded part.

Rush
10-08-2012, 10:50 PM
Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Weaver and Price were in a whole different league of pitching this year. Yeah, Hernandez threw a perfect game. But so did Philip Humber. I don't see anybody throwing his name in the Cy Young discussion.

Price and Verlander were much better than Weaver. Weaver should not be in the discussion just because of wins and ERA.

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 10:50 PM
Wait, so the Yankee's fans are the ones who should be winning the MVP award?
It's Miguel Cabrera without a doubt, anyone who thinks otherwise may have an IQ deficiency.

Smartest guy on here :clap:

But seriously, can you state your opinion without being a jack ***?

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 10:51 PM
Would you mind enlightening me on that a little bit? I don't see how the lower a pitcher's ERA is can negatively reflect his performance. I'm pretty sure most managers would rather pick a guy with an ERA of 2.00 over a guy with an ERA of 75.00

ERA doesn't take into account how good the defense is behind the pitcher or adjust for ballpark.

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 10:54 PM
Wait, so the Yankee's fans are the ones who should be winning the MVP award?
It's Miguel Cabrera without a doubt, anyone who thinks otherwise may have an IQ deficiency.

And whys that? Because he had a ton of RBI?

Rush
10-08-2012, 10:56 PM
The money lies in the RBIs.

- Jeff Kent.

Colinsanity
10-08-2012, 10:57 PM
I honestly hope - for your sake - that you're just kidding in the bolded part.

I don't think I am, that's why I posted it. Trout had an incredible season but the voters are going to chose the triple crown winner over the ROY.


Smartest guy on here :clap:

But seriously, can you state your opinion without being a jack ***?

Only if you say please.

Drow17
10-08-2012, 10:57 PM
ERA doesn't take into account how good the defense is behind the pitcher or adjust for ballpark.


Price and Verlander were much better than Weaver. Weaver should not be in the discussion just because of wins and ERA.

Notice I said the Cy Young would be either Weaver OR PRICE. We might as well hand the Cy Young to Yu Darvish then. After all, if wins and ERA don't matter, he struck out a shitload of people and his team made the playoffs. Plus he managed to win all those games pitching in the little league ballpark that is the Rangers stadium. Plus his defense was there trying to encourage him in Japanese all season long.

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 10:58 PM
Verlander should win his 2nd Cy Young this year. Price 2nd.

Fly
10-08-2012, 10:59 PM
No... wins and losses tell you jackshit about a pitcher, and ERA has many flaws of its own.

Would you mind enlightening me on that a little bit? I don't see how the lower a pitcher's ERA is can negatively reflect his performance. I'm pretty sure most managers would rather pick a guy with an ERA of 2.00 over a guy with an ERA of 75.00

It doesn't negatively reflect his performance, it's just that pitchers with low ERAs aren't always great pitchers. For example, ERA doesn't factor in the fact that Weaver had a top 3 defensive team in the league behind him.

jej
10-08-2012, 11:00 PM
Felix for Cy Young!

Why do you dislike Miggy so much?

I don't. I dislike injustice.

The fact that you think it's such a blowout shows how ignorant you are. At least we realize that Miggy will win, and acknowledge that he had a great OFFENSIVE year.

You are completely ignoring defense and stolen bases. Even if you do think the TC is a legit, valuable accomplishment, Trout still dominates him in the other 2 areas of the game.

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:01 PM
I don't. I dislike injustice.
The fact that you think it's such a blowout shows how ignorant you are. At least we realize that Miggy will win, and acknowledge that he had a great OFFENSIVE year.

You are completely ignoring defense and stolen bases. Even if you do think the TC is a legit, valuable accomplishment, Trout still dominates him in the other 2 areas of the game.

Ok Batman

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:01 PM
Only way Verlander wins is if Sabr-metrics is the agreed upon way to value a pitcher. Price has the traditional numbers over him.

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 11:02 PM
Notice I said the Cy Young would be either Weaver OR PRICE. We might as well hand the Cy Young to Yu Darvish then. After all, if wins and ERA don't matter, he struck out a shitload of people and his team made the playoffs. Plus he managed to win all those games pitching in the little league ballpark that is the Rangers stadium. Plus his defense was there trying to encourage him in Japanese all season long.

Straw man a bit...no one said Darvish should win. Verlander is clearly better than Weaver. Care to explain why you think Weaver should win over Verlander?

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:02 PM
Notice I said the Cy Young would be either Weaver OR PRICE. We might as well hand the Cy Young to Yu Darvish then. After all, if wins and ERA don't matter, he struck out a shitload of people and his team made the playoffs. Plus he managed to win all those games pitching in the little league ballpark that is the Rangers stadium. Plus his defense was there trying to encourage him in Japanese all season long.

But why no mention of Verlander? He's been better than Weaver.

jej
10-08-2012, 11:02 PM
Notice I said the Cy Young would be either Weaver OR PRICE. We might as well hand the Cy Young to Yu Darvish then. After all, if wins and ERA don't matter, he struck out a shitload of people and his team made the playoffs. Plus he managed to win all those games pitching in the little league ballpark that is the Rangers stadium. Plus his defense was there trying to encourage him in Japanese all season long.

Wins factor in the offense too. Was Felix bad in 2010 because he only won 12 games?

Look at ERA, FIP, xFIP, and the /9's when evaluating a pitcher.

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:03 PM
I don't. I dislike injustice.
The fact that you think it's such a blowout shows how ignorant you are. At least we realize that Miggy will win, and acknowledge that he had a great OFFENSIVE year.

You are completely ignoring defense and stolen bases. Even if you do think the TC is a legit, valuable accomplishment, Trout still dominates him in the other 2 areas of the game.

Ok Batman

:laugh:

jej
10-08-2012, 11:03 PM
Ok Batman

Lol

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:05 PM
Only way Verlander wins is if Sabr-metrics is the agreed upon way to value a pitcher. Price has the traditional numbers over him.

Like what? Verlander throws way more innings, strikes out more, walked only 1 more batter (Verlander has thrown roughly 27 more innings than Price has) and the ERA differences are minimal. JV should win no doubt. IP is the deciding factor.

Drow17
10-08-2012, 11:06 PM
But why no mention of Verlander? He's been better than Weaver.

Remember in 2001 when Roger Clemens won 20 games, had an ERA of 3.51, and only had 213 strikeouts? Oh yeah, and he roided.

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:10 PM
Like what? Verlander throws way more innings, strikes out more, walked only 1 more batter (Verlander has thrown roughly 27 more innings than Price has) and the ERA differences are minimal. JV should win no doubt. IP is the deciding factor.

Those are advanced stats (information) which is also the same thing that gives Trout the same advantage over Cabrera.

TC numbers are the same things as W-L record and ERA.

They are the equivalent of one another

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:10 PM
Remember in 2001 when Roger Clemens won 20 games, had an ERA of 3.51, and only had 213 strikeouts? Oh yeah, and he roided.

I dont understand the point of this

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:10 PM
But why no mention of Verlander? He's been better than Weaver.

Remember in 2001 when Roger Clemens won 20 games, had an ERA of 3.51, and only had 213 strikeouts? Oh yeah, and he roided.

What's your point?

And lol if you don't think 213 K's is a lot

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 11:11 PM
Remember in 2001 when Roger Clemens won 20 games, had an ERA of 3.51, and only had 213 strikeouts? Oh yeah, and he roided.

What? Not sure how that relates to this discussion.

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:11 PM
What's your point?

And lol if you don't think 213 K's is a lot

I cant believe he wont it over Mussina that year

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:13 PM
Those are advanced stats (information) which is also the same thing that gives Trout the same advantage over Cabrera.

TC numbers are the same things as W-L record and ERA.

They are the equivalent of one another

IP, SO and walks are advanced stats? Pretty standard if you ask me. Advanced would be that FIP stat or WAR

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:13 PM
Remember in 2001 when Roger Clemens won 20 games, had an ERA of 3.51, and only had 213 strikeouts? Oh yeah, and he roided.

Was this an attempt to slam Rogers season as though it was a bad season to win 20 games?

Because 98 Heilling was pretty laughably bad.

Just curious choice for a bad season for a 20 game winner :)

Mr. LA
10-08-2012, 11:14 PM
Why even waste our time debating when the dumb voters are obviously going to go with
Cabrera
Price
Posey
Dickey

When everyone knows it should be
Trout
Verlander
Braun
Kershaw

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:16 PM
Why even waste our time debating when the dumb voters are obviously going to go with
Cabrera
Price
Posey
Dickey

When everyone knows it should be
Trout
Verlander
Braun
Kershaw

Weren't you arguing for Cabrera just last week?

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:18 PM
IP, SO and walks are advanced stats? Pretty standard if you ask me. Advanced would be that FIP stat or WAR

So would SB, Runs Scored, Triples, and unintenitional walks, all of which Trout leads Cabrera in.

As well does the value of defense and base running as values.


Miggy has the traditional numbers, and so does Price.

Verlander deserves the AL Cy Young. Because he has the advanced numbers, the additional information that you shared with us.

But Price has the TC numbers for a pitcher

W and
ERA

he doesn't have
K, but he has 2 out of 3.

Drow17
10-08-2012, 11:18 PM
What? Not sure how that relates to this discussion.

Find me a voter that looks so deep into the 9/'s and sabremetrics when choosing a winner. I never once said that any of these people didn't deserve the award. The OP for this thread: who do you think will win each award. I gave my predictions. You jackasses are the ones with your panties in a wad over my choice.

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:18 PM
Remember in 2001 when Roger Clemens won 20 games, had an ERA of 3.51, and only had 213 strikeouts? Oh yeah, and he roided.

What's your point? When deciding the Cy Young wins should be ignored.

Mr. LA
10-08-2012, 11:19 PM
Weren't you arguing for Cabrera just last week?

Yeah but I said EVERYONE knows... I'm not everyone....I guess if all of you think Trout should be MVP then I guess he should.... personally they both deserve I don't really care who they give it too

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:21 PM
Find me a voter that looks so deep into the 9/'s and sabremetrics when choosing a winner. I never once said that any of these people didn't deserve the award. The OP for this thread: who do you think will win each award. I gave my predictions. You jackasses are the ones with your panties in a wad over my choice.

:no: name calling.

It's hard to determine what you think will happen or what you think should happen since people are doing both. Then who do you think should win?

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:21 PM
What? Not sure how that relates to this discussion.

Find me a voter that looks so deep into the 9/'s and sabremetrics when choosing a winner. I never once said that any of these people didn't deserve the award. The OP for this thread: who do you think will win each award. I gave my predictions. You jackasses are the ones with your panties in a wad over my choice.

Sounds like someone's upset.

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:22 PM
Find me a voter that looks so deep into the 9/'s and sabremetrics when choosing a winner. I never once said that any of these people didn't deserve the award. The OP for this thread: who do you think will win each award. I gave my predictions. You jackasses are the ones with your panties in a wad over my choice.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2010.shtml#ALcya

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 11:22 PM
Find me a voter that looks so deep into the 9/'s and sabremetrics when choosing a winner. I never once said that any of these people didn't deserve the award. The OP for this thread: who do you think will win each award. I gave my predictions. You jackasses are the ones with your panties in a wad over my choice.

Easy, any voter from the 2010 AL Cy Young voting.

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:22 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2010.shtml#ALcya

Beat me to it.

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:23 PM
Also, guys if you are going to post in this thread, please discuss the off-season awards, and not about trolling, or Mr. LA etc. And keep the insults out, otherwise I have to moderate, and that's no fun.

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:23 PM
So now W-L record matters to you?

I didn't share any advanced numbers. Verlander struck out 239 batters to Price's 205. Verlander walked 60 batters to Price's 59. Verlander threw 238.1 innings to Price's 211. Which one of those is advanced?

Seriously, what's your reasoning for Price over Verlander.

I don't even know why you brought up Trout/Miggy. Probably trolling me but that's fine.

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 11:24 PM
Yeah but I said EVERYONE knows... I'm not everyone....I guess if all of you think Trout should be MVP then I guess he should.... personally they both deserve I don't really care who they give it too

I always thought everyone included well everyone.

Drow17
10-08-2012, 11:25 PM
AL MVP - Cabrera
NL MVP - Posey
AL Cy Young - either Price or Weaver
NL Cy Young - either Dickey or Gonzalez
AL ROY - Trout
NL ROY - Harper or Frazier

That^

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:26 PM
Yeah but I said EVERYONE knows... I'm not everyone....I guess if all of you think Trout should be MVP then I guess he should.... personally they both deserve I don't really care who they give it too

Neither do I really. It'd be cool if Miggy won though.

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:27 PM
AL MVP - Cabrera
NL MVP - Posey
AL Cy Young - either Price or Weaver
NL Cy Young - either Dickey or Gonzalez
AL ROY - Trout
NL ROY - Harper or Frazier

That^

How could you take Miggy over Trout? Or Weaver over JV?

Drow17
10-08-2012, 11:27 PM
And by the way, apparently the voters thought the K's, high ERA, and 20 Wins were enough for Clemens. Which all of you said didn't matter.

AND I AIN'T EVEN MAD

Mr. LA
10-08-2012, 11:27 PM
Also, guys if you are going to post in this thread, please discuss the off-season awards, and not about trolling, or Mr. LA etc. And keep the insults out, otherwise I have to moderate, and that's no fun.

I didn't do anything :shrug: right?

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:27 PM
That^

Is that who you think will win? Or who you think should win?

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 11:28 PM
Or Frazier over Miley?

Mr. LA
10-08-2012, 11:28 PM
I always thought everyone included well everyone.

I meant the majority

Drow17
10-08-2012, 11:29 PM
How could you take Miggy over Trout? Or Weaver over JV?

This is going to contradict myself, but the MVP should go to someone who's team made the playoffs. I don't see Trout in the playoffs. The Cy Young could go either way in my opinion. And none of you seem to notice that I also put "Or Price" in my OP

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:29 PM
And by the way, apparently the voters thought the K's, high ERA, and 20 Wins were enough for Clemens. Which all of you said didn't matter.

AND I AIN'T EVEN MAD

That was also 11 years ago

you mad

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:30 PM
And by the way, apparently the voters thought the K's, high ERA, and 20 Wins were enough for Clemens. Which all of you said didn't matter.

AND I AIN'T EVEN MAD

In 2000, people were unaware of what pitchers can control and what equates to value as a pitcher.


Now the voters know better, or a good majority of them

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:30 PM
This is going to contradict myself, but the MVP should go to someone who's team made the playoffs. I don't see Trout in the playoffs. The Cy Young could go either way in my opinion. And none of you seem to notice that I also put "Or Price" in my OP

Here comes the same old counter argument.

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:30 PM
This is going to contradict myself, but the MVP should go to someone who's team made the playoffs. I don't see Trout in the playoffs. The Cy Young could go either way in my opinion. And none of you seem to notice that I also put "Or Price" in my OP

Trouts team won more games than Miggy's

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:30 PM
This is going to contradict myself, but the MVP should go to someone who's team made the playoffs. I don't see Trout in the playoffs. The Cy Young could go either way in my opinion. And none of you seem to notice that I also put "Or Price" in my OP

Angels had a better record than the Tigers. Lets punish Trout because he doesnt play in the AL Central, amIright?

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:30 PM
This is going to contradict myself, but the MVP should go to someone who's team made the playoffs. I don't see Trout in the playoffs. The Cy Young could go either way in my opinion. And none of you seem to notice that I also put "Or Price" in my OP

Why? It's not a team award. Trout's team was better. You're going to penalize Trout because he played in a tougher division than the Tigers? Plus, the Angels had a better record with Trout than the Tigers did with Cabrera.

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:31 PM
And by the way, apparently the voters thought the K's, high ERA, and 20 Wins were enough for Clemens. Which all of you said didn't matter.

AND I AIN'T EVEN MAD

That was 11 years ago, man. Come on....

Texas Holders
10-08-2012, 11:31 PM
And by the way, apparently the voters thought the K's, high ERA, and 20 Wins were enough for Clemens. Which all of you said didn't matter.

AND I AIN'T EVEN MAD

No one said that, we said wins are not important and ERA a little more important than wins. No one said Ks weren't important. I thought you were arguing that a low ERA was important, now you seem to be saying the opposite.

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:32 PM
Did the Tigers have a better win % with A Jax than they did Miggy?

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:33 PM
This is going to contradict myself, but the MVP should go to someone who's team made the playoffs. I don't see Trout in the playoffs. The Cy Young could go either way in my opinion. And none of you seem to notice that I also put "Or Price" in my OP

Angels had a better record than the Tigers. Lets punish Trout because he doesnt play in the AL Central, amIright?

Yep! Punish Trout because the Angels don't play in Minnesota or Ohio!

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:34 PM
Did the Tigers have a better win % with A Jax than they did Miggy?

Tigers were 80-57 when Jackson appeared in a game
and 80-55 when he started

Tigers were 87-74 when Miggy appeared in a game

Mr. LA
10-08-2012, 11:39 PM
You guys keep saying the MVP isn't a team award when in fact it very much is a team award! The MVP goes to the player who most contributes to their team's success and well ... The Angels don't have any success this season... Therefore Trout shouldn't get the MVP unless his stats were just far and away the best which that is not even the case at all!

Some of you also keep saying the Angels had a better record than the Tigers which is true but I find that a bad argument because it doesn't really make any sense...that's basically just throwing out IF's and IF's are never good arguments...IF the Tiger's were in the Angles division...then the Tigers might just have 100 wins right now...who knows? you can't just say if... point is Tigers made the playoffs and Angels didn't... Their isn't any IF's, AND's or BUT's about it

With that being said... They are both worthy of winning the award and neither would be a BAD choice

IMO Cabrera is the better choice

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:41 PM
You guys keep saying the MVP isn't a team award when in fact it very much is a team award! The MVP goes to the player who most contributes to their team's success and well ... The Angels don't have any success this season... Therefore Trout shouldn't get the MVP unless his stats were just far and away the best which that is not even the case at all!

Some of you also keep saying the Angels had a better record than the Tigers which is true but I find that a bad argument because it doesn't really make any sense...that's basically just throwing out IF's and IF's are never good arguments...IF the Tiger's were in the Angles division...then the Tigers might just have 100 wins right now...who knows? you can't just say if... point is Tigers made the playoffs and Angels didn't... Their isn't any IF's, AND's or BUT's about it

With that being said... They are both worthy of winning the award and neither would be a BAD choice

IMO Cabrera is the better choice

Trout had more value and contributed more to his team than Cabrera. How can you argue against that? It's a fact.

natepro
10-08-2012, 11:42 PM
You guys keep saying the MVP isn't a team award when in fact it very much is a team award! The MVP goes to the player who most contributes to their team's success and well ... The Angels don't have any success this season... Therefore Trout shouldn't get the MVP unless his stats were just far and away the best which that is not even the case at all!

Some of you also keep saying the Angels had a better record than the Tigers which is true but I find that a bad argument because it doesn't really make any sense...that's basically just throwing out IF's and IF's are never good arguments...IF the Tiger's were in the Angles division...then the Tigers might just have 100 wins right now...who knows? you can't just say if... point is Tigers made the playoffs and Angels didn't... Their isn't any IF's, AND's or BUT's about it

With that being said... They are both worthy of winning the award and neither would be a BAD choice

IMO Cabrera is the better choice

The Angels having a better record isn't an IF. It did actually happen.

And of course the MVP isn't a team award. It seems like the whole "Player" part of the name would clue you into that.

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:42 PM
Trout had more value and contributed more to his team than Cabrera. How can you argue against that? It's a fact.

Because one teams in the playoffs. Duh!

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:44 PM
Because one teams in the playoffs. Duh!

You're getting it now sexicano.

Did you see Miggy go 3-5 yesterday with 2 doubles? And come up with a clutch hit in the 9th. MVP

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:45 PM
You're getting it now sexicano.

Did you see Miggy go 3-5 yesterday with 2 doubles? And come up with a clutch hit in the 9th. MVP

Too bad that doesnt matter. Too bad it shouldnt matter that hes in the playoffs

Mr. LA
10-08-2012, 11:46 PM
The Angels having a better record isn't an IF. It did actually happen.

And of course the MVP isn't a team award. It seems like the whole "Player" part of the name would clue you into that.

and what about the "Valuable" part of the name? It surely doesn't mean value to the player's health or anything

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:47 PM
You're getting it now sexicano.

Did you see Miggy go 3-5 yesterday with 2 doubles? And come up with a clutch hit in the 9th. MVP

Well I did see Trout come up with that clutch wipe of the *** last night. Gotta give credit where credit's due.

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:47 PM
Does Miggy moving to 3rd so we could sign Prince count for anything? Not everything can be measured with stats

Mr. LA
10-08-2012, 11:47 PM
Trout had more value and contributed more to his team than Cabrera. How can you argue against that? It's a fact.

but it isn't a fact because they played in different divisions, different positions, different lineups, and different ballparks... You cant estimate a player's value like you're doing

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:47 PM
Trout had more value and contributed more to his team than Cabrera. How can you argue against that? It's a fact.

Because one teams in the playoffs. Duh!

Lew Ford >>> Andrew McCutchen cuz Cutch is sitting on his couch in October

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:48 PM
Does Miggy moving to 3rd so we could sign Prince count for anything? Not everything can be measured with stats

Does Trout moving to LF so they could put Bourjos' glove in CF count for anything? Not everything can be measured with stats

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:50 PM
Lew Ford >>> Andrew McCutchen cuz Cutch is sitting on his couch in October

Is Lew Ford even close to McCutchen's level?

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:50 PM
Does Miggy moving to 3rd so we could sign Prince count for anything? Not everything can be measured with stats

What if Prince had absolutely sucked this year and cost you guys a few wins? Would that take away from Cabrera's value?

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:50 PM
but it isn't a fact because they played in different divisions, different positions, different lineups, and different ballparks... You cant estimate a player's value like you're doing

If you look at stats, Trout is the more valuable player. That's a fact. It amazes me how you fail to understand that after how long we've provided this information to you.

They played the same teams (Cabrera played more crappy teams than Trout did) and they played in the same ball parks.

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:52 PM
Is Lew Ford even close to McCutchen's level?

Who cares? It's all about who's playing in the Postseason.

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:53 PM
Is Lew Ford even close to McCutchen's level?

Who cares? It's all about who's playing in the Postseason.

Couldn't have said it better myself

StriveGreatness
10-08-2012, 11:55 PM
If you're going to make a drastic comparison like that then there's no point in interacting with you people.

sexicano31
10-08-2012, 11:57 PM
what do you mean "you people"?

Rush
10-08-2012, 11:58 PM
If you're going to make a drastic comparison like that then there's no point in interacting with you people.

It's because of others using the argument that Cabrera is in the Postseason, that's why he should win.

Fly
10-08-2012, 11:58 PM
Alright, then how about the comparison between Carlos Beltran and Cutch this year? Or is that one too drastic for ya too?

Mr. LA
10-08-2012, 11:59 PM
what do you mean "you people"?

anger management quote :clap:

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 12:05 AM
You guys keep saying the MVP isn't a team award when in fact it very much is a team award! The MVP goes to the player who most contributes to their team's success and well ... The Angels don't have any success this season... Therefore Trout shouldn't get the MVP unless his stats were just far and away the best which that is not even the case at all!

Some of you also keep saying the Angels had a better record than the Tigers which is true but I find that a bad argument because it doesn't really make any sense...that's basically just throwing out IF's and IF's are never good arguments...IF the Tiger's were in the Angles division...then the Tigers might just have 100 wins right now...who knows? you can't just say if... point is Tigers made the playoffs and Angels didn't... Their isn't any IF's, AND's or BUT's about it

With that being said... They are both worthy of winning the award and neither would be a BAD choice

IMO Cabrera is the better choice

you are making up the criteria for the award, and it's simply false

Part of the letter written to the voters each year


“There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

“The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931: (1) actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense; (2) number of games played; (3) general character, disposition, loyalty and effort; (4) former winners are eligible; and (5) members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.”

Rush
10-09-2012, 12:16 AM
(1) actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense

That should say it all.

natepro
10-09-2012, 12:17 AM
and what about the "Valuable" part of the name? It surely doesn't mean value to the player's health or anything

No. It means you pick the guy who was equal to the other guy offensively, and clearly and vastly better than him on the basepaths and with the glove.

Most = More so than anyone else... Trout.
Valuable = Did more than anyone else... Trout.
Player = Not a team, but one guy that was the other two parts of this... Trout.

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 12:22 AM
That should say it all.

It also clearly says 'need not come from a playoff qualifier'

and for those that said a pitcher shouldn't get it like Verlander last year, it also says 'pitchers qualify'

Rush
10-09-2012, 12:25 AM
^Ya very important too.

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 01:40 AM
I'm going through my created formula for MVP (yes, I literally created my own formula for the information that I think matters)

But it takes awhile to type in all the data for each player


So who all does everyone think should be considered on the offensive side for the ballot?

In the AL
Trout
Miggy
Fielder
A. Jackson
Beltre
Hamilton
E5
Mauer
A. Jones
B. Zobrist
A. Gordon
Cano


And can someone give me 20ish names for the NL they would like to see included?

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 01:52 AM
I don't think I forgot anyone that would make top 10 (remember, pitchers are included, and I feel they never get enough love)

1. Trout
2. Cano
3. Miggy
4. Verlander
5. Beltre
6. Price
7. A. Jackson
8. Fielder
9. Sale
10. Zobrist

But from Price to Zobrist and everyone in between, it's crazy close. Honorable mentions that just barely missed the top 10. Gordon, Mauer, E5. Several more guys were close to, but not close enough.

FortDetroit
10-09-2012, 02:00 AM
So the Tigers had 4 of the top 10 players in the AL this year and still were only able to finish with 88 wins in the Comedy Central? Sheesh, the rest of the roster must be horrible, lol.

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 02:13 AM
So the Tigers had 4 of the top 10 players in the AL this year and still were only able to finish with 88 wins in the Comedy Central? Sheesh, the rest of the roster must be horrible, lol.

Well the Tigers do have a rather unbalanced roster really.

You have top 5 players at their positions in the AL in a few positions, and bottom 5 players at their positions in the AL at others.

Having your DH spot be the second worst DH offensively doesn't help, that's for certain.

Buckwheat
10-09-2012, 02:18 AM
I'm going through my created formula for MVP (yes, I literally created my own formula for the information that I think matters)

But it takes awhile to type in all the data for each player


So who all does everyone think should be considered on the offensive side for the ballot?

In the AL
Trout
Miggy
Fielder
A. Jackson
Beltre
Hamilton
E5
Mauer
A. Jones
B. Zobrist
A. Gordon
Cano


And can someone give me 20ish names for the NL they would like to see included?

E5= Encarnacion?

Posey
McCutchen
Molina
Braun
Wright
Headley
A-Ram
Votto
Bourn
Craig
Stanton
Bruce
Aaron Hill
and for the ***** and giggles... Melky

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 02:19 AM
Again, these aren't conclusive, and this isn't what my final vote would be, if I was given such an opportunity.

But this gives value to, Net Runs Totaled, fWAR, rWAR, WPA and other variables that I think matter, specifically, some defensive and base running metrics and a specific value to Runs Created

1. Braun
2. Posey (they are so close, it's almost not even funny)
3. Cutch
4. Wright
5. Headley
6. Molina
7. A. Ramirez
8. J. Heyward
9. Kershaw
10. Hill
Honorable mentions right behind Hill
Holliday, Dickey, Cueto, Desmond, Montero

I was really thinking Molina would be much higher, and I thought Holliday would be somewhere on this list, but nope. I feel like Molina is third behind Posey and Braun, and the numbers I used show him to be 6th (but basically tied with Headley). I'm sad that it didn't work out like I had hoped.

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 02:20 AM
Posey
McCutchen
Molina
Braun
Wright
Headley
A-Ram
Votto
Bourn
Craig
Stanton
Bruce
Aaron Hill
and for the ***** and giggles... Melky
Def need to add Votto (he wasn't in qualifiers, but yeah, I need to add him), and I wouldn't vote for Melky. But for fun, I'll share his.

Bruce and Stanton should be considered, and I guess I'll add Craig and Bourn and see where they are.

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 02:31 AM
Again, these aren't conclusive, and this isn't what my final vote would be, if I was given such an opportunity.

But this gives value to, Net Runs Totaled, fWAR, rWAR, WPA and other variables that I think matter, specifically, some defensive and base running metrics and a specific value to Runs Created

1. Braun
2. Posey (they are so close, it's almost not even funny)
3. Cutch
4. Wright
5. Headley
6. Molina
7. A. Ramirez
8. J. Heyward
9. Kershaw
10. Hill
Honorable mentions right behind Hill
Holliday, Dickey, Cueto, Desmond, Montero

I was really thinking Molina would be much higher, and I thought Holliday would be somewhere on this list, but nope. I feel like Molina is third behind Posey and Braun, and the numbers I used show him to be 6th (but basically tied with Headley). I'm sad that it didn't work out like I had hoped.



Added
Votto, Bruce, Craig, Stanton, and Melky Cabrera

Holy ****, Votto would have easily been the MVP if he didn't miss so many games. He would have it easy.

Stanton is a spot ahead of Hill, but because of Votto, he is removed from the list and moved to 11th regardless, and Hill becomes 12th

Votto moves ahead of A-Ram though

1. Braun
2. Posey
3. Cutch
4. Wright
5. Headley
6. Molina
7. J. Votto
8. A. Ram
9. Heyward
10. Kershaw


Bruce is laughably out of it. No where close, and Craig is pretty far away as well. Melky joins Holliday, Desmond and company in just missing the top 10 behind Aaron Hill.

Yahweh962
10-09-2012, 04:18 PM
So let me get this straight, we're all just crapping out our own stats now that pander to a player on our team to justify them being as good as some of the elite talents in the league? Gimme a sec when I go turn Joe Mather and Shawn Camp into all stars... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

sexicano31
10-09-2012, 04:20 PM
Lol you dont understand advanced stats so you make fun of them

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 04:28 PM
So let me get this straight, we're all just crapping out our own stats now that pander to a player on our team to justify them being as good as some of the elite talents in the league? Gimme a sec when I go turn Joe Mather and Shawn Camp into all stars... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Do you even know who my favorite team is?

My favorite players came up way short on my list

ShockerArt
10-09-2012, 04:37 PM
So let me get this straight, we're all just crapping out our own stats now that pander to a player on our team to justify them being as good as some of the elite talents in the league? Gimme a sec when I go turn Joe Mather and Shawn Camp into all stars... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Yep. That's exactly what this is all about.

sexicano31
10-09-2012, 04:48 PM
Damn I missed something fun

KrunchyGoodness
10-09-2012, 04:52 PM
You guys keep saying the MVP isn't a team award when in fact it very much is a team award! The MVP goes to the player who most contributes to their team's success and well ... *(1) The Angels don't have any success this season... Therefore Trout shouldn't get the MVP *(2) unless his stats were just far and away the best which that is not even the case at all!

Some of you also keep saying the Angels had a better record than the Tigers which is true but I find that a bad argument because it doesn't really make any sense...that's basically just throwing out IF's and IF's are never good arguments...IF the Tiger's were in the Angles division...then the Tigers might just have 100 wins right now...who knows? you can't just say if... point is Tigers made the playoffs and Angels didn't... Their isn't any IF's, AND's or BUT's about it

With that being said... They are both worthy of winning the award and neither would be a BAD choice

IMO Cabrera is the better choice

*(1) So the Angels had no success this season? I was not aware of a team going 0-162 with 0 RS and 1,000,000 RA this season. Why is it that making the post season is the arbitrary point where a team's success mattered? Isn't the Championship the only thing that matters? Does that mean that the MVP should always come from the World Series team? That sounds a bit exclusive, doesn't it?

*(2) Trout's stats were far and away the best. Best offensive player this season. Top defensive player this season. Cabrera only has offense and Trout is better. Trout is so much better than everyone else that you can forget the margin for error.

The rest was already addressed

Let me straighten out the RBI/Ws thing for you so you can be a little more informed. It isn't that RBIs and Ws are useless, they are just not very useful for valuing an individual player. What goes into these stats? Mostly player skill, team skill, and luck/error. What we want with value stats is to isolate player skill as much as possible. Because RBIs and Ws have so many other factors influencing them besides the individual, if we are going to use them for valuation, we need to adjust them first. So if you use these stats to value an individual without adjusting them first, you are making a bad argument. Instead of adjusting, most sabr-heads prefer to use alternatives like the wOBA/wRAA/wRC/wRC+ stat that tells us something similar to RBIs, but the individual is much more isolated. Here is where these things differ: wRC+ is not flawless, but it is reliable enough that with an entire season sample size and with a large enough lead (i.e. Trout over Cabrera) we can say with confidence that Trout is better. RBIs are so flawed that Cabrera's lead over Trout is easily explained by things other than individual value. Batting order and Gs are almost the entire explanation for Cabrera's lead and that is before you account for many other things like ballpark, player's batting in front, and lineup protection.

Yahweh962
10-09-2012, 04:52 PM
Darwin Barney should win the gold glove. If there's one thing Cubs fans have been fortunate about it's the quality of defense that we've displayed at second base over the years. Ryno the greatest defensive second baseman of all time and Barney the greatest defensive second baseman in the game today. It really has just all come full circle. :clap::clap::clap:

sexicano31
10-09-2012, 04:56 PM
Wow, you actually said something smart.

Note, Barney has a 4.6 rWAR. Most of which was thanks to his defense

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 05:05 PM
Catcher Gold Gloves and measuring defensive values for catchers?

Nice read

http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2012/10/04/fogging-the-measure-catcher-defense-ratings-final-2012-edition/

Zander 77
10-09-2012, 05:07 PM
Well the Tigers do have a rather unbalanced roster really.

You have top 5 players at their positions in the AL in a few positions, and bottom 5 players at their positions in the AL at others.

Having your DH spot be the second worst DH offensively doesn't help, that's for certain.

Imagine how Detroit will look next year if Martinez can come back fully healthy.

KrunchyGoodness
10-09-2012, 05:12 PM
Imagine how Detroit will look next year if Martinez can come back fully healthy.

They'll win the Central again? Maybe win a couple more games? With that record, that isn't saying too much.

MetsFanatic19
10-09-2012, 06:44 PM
Imagine how Detroit will look next year if Martinez can come back fully healthy.

Then Cabrera would certainly win MVP.

sexicano31
10-09-2012, 06:46 PM
I dont understand how you can give Cabrera the MVP. He wasnt able to bring VMart back from that injury. How valuable could he really be?

MetsFanatic19
10-09-2012, 06:47 PM
Catcher Gold Gloves and measuring defensive values for catchers?

Nice read

http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2012/10/04/fogging-the-measure-catcher-defense-ratings-final-2012-edition/

I really like to look at a catcher's arm when discussion gold glove. They could block everything thrown at them, but if they can't throw a guy out to save their life, then their chances at winning it should deminish greatly IMO.

StriveGreatness
10-09-2012, 06:50 PM
I dont understand how you can give Cabrera the MVP. He wasnt able to bring VMart back from that injury. How valuable could he really be?

He's not Tebow. C'mon.

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 07:10 PM
I really like to look at a catcher's arm when discussion gold glove. They could block everything thrown at them, but if they can't throw a guy out to save their life, then their chances at winning it should deminish greatly IMO.

Part of why a guy gets ran on is because his pitchers can't hold anyone on.

But you can easily monitor and track how successful a guy is at keeping guys on base


There is also the huge advantage of there being a runner on third, and a pitcher feeling comfortable enough to throw breaking balls in the dirt because his catcher can block everything.

StriveGreatness
10-09-2012, 07:13 PM
They'll win the Central again? Maybe win a couple more games? With that record, that isn't saying too much.

How can you possibly predict that they'd only win a few more games? Do you realize how bad Delmon Young is?

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 08:08 PM
How can you possibly predict that they'd only win a few more games? Do you realize how bad Delmon Young is?

Let's assume that Victor Martinez' DH's next season all year for the Tigers, and he does what he did in 2010 and 2011 (or an average of both).

He would provide the Tigers with about 86 runs created offensively (172 combined in 10 and 11)

The DH position for the Tigers produced a total of 64 runs this season

So you should gain about 22 runs net by having Victor DH over Delmon Young


That's only 2-3 more wins.

FortDetroit
10-09-2012, 09:07 PM
luckily for the tigers, win and loss records for teams aren't actually determined by complicated formulas. none of that takes into account players improving or declining from year to year, players breaking out, players staying healthy instead of getting injured, players getting injured instead of staying healthy, free agent singings, free agents leaving, players having down years, players having career years, plain old luck or bad luck, etc etc. Not everything is quantifiable in a formula. comments like that are what irks with me sabergeeks. oh you are trading out this player for this player, that means you will win 3.2 less games than you won last year and your total runs created will decrease by 27.8 (or whatever the case may be)...etc etc. so dumb, thats not how sports works.

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 09:13 PM
luckily for the tigers, win and loss records for teams aren't actually determined by complicated formulas. none of that takes into account players improving or declining from year to year, players breaking out, players staying healthy instead of getting injured, players getting injured instead of staying healthy, etc etc. Not everything is quantifiable in a formula. comments that that are what irks with me sabergeeks. oh you are trading out this player for this player, that means you will win 3.2 less games than you won last year and your total runs created will decrease by 27.8 (or whatever the case may be)...etc etc. so dumb, thats not how sports works.

To say they could expect 2-3 more wins with Victor in the lineup over Delmon I would assume that everyone is already acutely aware of everything you just said.

If Verlander gets hurt, Tigers could be a last place team. Who knows.

It isn't just a giant waving declaration that assumes everything would remain the same.

A lot can happen in any typical season. If the Tigers had had V-Mart all season in the DH spot, you could assume an additional 2-3 wins or so.

Nobody said that's exactly what would or will happen.

FortDetroit
10-09-2012, 09:20 PM
To say they could expect 2-3 more wins with Victor in the lineup over Delmon I would assume that everyone is already acutely aware of everything you just said.

If Verlander gets hurt, Tigers could be a last place team. Who knows.

It isn't just a giant waving declaration that assumes everything would remain the same.

A lot can happen in any typical season. If the Tigers had had V-Mart all season in the DH spot, you could assume an additional 2-3 wins or so.

Nobody said that's exactly what would or will happen.

Why even bother trying to be precise with numbers then? that's exactly what you just did. "You should improve by x amount of runs with player z and your wins will improve by y" just sounds absolutely ridiculous, unrealistic, and an example of something that cannot be accurately quantified with any fancy formula yet people attempt to.

just another example of attempting to quantify something that is impossible to be accurately quantified.

jej
10-09-2012, 10:29 PM
Why even bother trying to be precise with numbers then? that's exactly what you just did. "You should improve by x amount of runs with player z and your wins will improve by y" just sounds absolutely ridiculous, unrealistic, and an example of something that cannot be accurately quantified with any fancy formula yet people attempt to.

just another example of attempting to quantify something that is impossible to be accurately quantified.

Is it more accurate to assume someone would have broke their arm and drastically changed the season?

I dont see how adding VMart could cause an injury or a slump or anything.

If everything else was the same, and it was VMart instead of Delmon, then they would have probably won 2-3 more games

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 10:45 PM
Why even bother trying to be precise with numbers then? that's exactly what you just did. "You should improve by x amount of runs with player z and your wins will improve by y" just sounds absolutely ridiculous, unrealistic, and an example of something that cannot be accurately quantified with any fancy formula yet people attempt to.

just another example of attempting to quantify something that is impossible to be accurately quantified.

If all things were the same, and the Tigers had V-Mart instead of Delmon Young all season hitting the DH spot, you can assume the Tigers would have won 2-3 more games this year.

That is all that was said.

It wasn't an attempt to predict the future, but rather to illustrate the difference between a bad hitter and a good hitter in the Tigers lineup taking those PA and that value on the teams record.

Zander 77
10-10-2012, 12:37 PM
If all things were the same, and the Tigers had V-Mart instead of Delmon Young all season hitting the DH spot, you can assume the Tigers would have won 2-3 more games this year.

That is all that was said.

It wasn't an attempt to predict the future, but rather to illustrate the difference between a bad hitter and a good hitter in the Tigers lineup taking those PA and that value on the teams record.

The problem is though, that the perceived value of Delmon Young, based on what stats you choose to use, is still subjective. To Tigers fans, Young was worth even less than the stats would indicate, while Martinez is worth more than the numbers would suggest. Victor Martinez was the heart and soul of the Tigers last year. You watch a lot of baseball, and you should know that if you watched much Tiger baseball. Not having him in the dugout much this year, even as just a presence, was a huge blow.

Your numbers say the Tigers would probably have only won 2-3 more games this year, and maybe you're right....but maybe you're wrong.

jej
10-10-2012, 05:12 PM
That's something that can't be quantified tho.

Do you really think VMart being there would make others play better because he wills them to or something

Guppyfighter
10-10-2012, 06:18 PM
He could have been in the dug out if he wanted too. Brandon McCarthy and Brandon Inge of the A's both are still in the dug out despite being out for the season.

Zander 77
10-10-2012, 06:21 PM
He could have been in the dug out if he wanted too. Brandon McCarthy and Brandon Inge of the A's both are still in the dug out despite being out for the season.

Both of those injuries were more recent, and they are still in the "recovery" process. Victor is past the recovery stage, and has been training in Lakeland to be ready for his team next season.

Dekker
10-10-2012, 06:57 PM
When Victor is in the dugout, we are a happy go lucky team that gets on huge hot stretches. Without him, we are much more neutral.

Jeffy25
10-10-2012, 10:33 PM
When Victor is in the dugout, we are a happy go lucky team that gets on huge hot stretches. Without him, we are much more neutral.

and that might be, the intangibles are unmeasurable.

The on field production difference from Young to V-Mart is measurable. The intangibles are not.

Zander 77
10-10-2012, 11:27 PM
and that might be, the intangibles are unmeasurable.

The on field production difference from Young to V-Mart is measurable. The intangibles are not.

I would argue that it ISN'T measurable. I wouldn't have any kind of numbers to back it up, but I would argue it. Just because you have the numbers from two different players doesn't mean you can then say "because W was this much better than X, team Y would have won Z more games." Because *everything* changes with one variable.
If Victor hadn't gotten hurt, maybe the Tigers wouldn't have signed Prince. If we had had Victor, maybe Miggy would have hit .350. If we had had Victor, maybe Quintin Berry wouldn't have gotten a shot. It's impossible to quantify, no matter how much you might try to with stats,traditional or otherwise.

fadedmario
10-10-2012, 11:29 PM
Good post.

Jeffy25
10-10-2012, 11:42 PM
I would argue that it ISN'T measurable. I wouldn't have any kind of numbers to back it up, but I would argue it. Just because you have the numbers from two different players doesn't mean you can then say "because W was this much better than X, team Y would have won Z more games." Because *everything* changes with one variable.
If Victor hadn't gotten hurt, maybe the Tigers wouldn't have signed Prince. If we had had Victor, maybe Miggy would have hit .350. If we had had Victor, maybe Quintin Berry wouldn't have gotten a shot. It's impossible to quantify, no matter how much you might try to with stats,traditional or otherwise.

Obviously quantum variables exist beyond. The 'what if's' will always be there.

That wasn't the question when the original discussion was brought up.

This is what was said (by you btw)



Imagine how Detroit will look next year if Martinez can come back fully healthy.


It was responded that V-Mart provides them an additional 2-3 wins over Delmon Young. There are other variables that can not be measured, but the on field production absolutely can be measured. The runs are absolutely quantifiable.

Zander 77
10-11-2012, 12:08 AM
Yeah yeah. I confused myself a little bit. It happens :D.

But the fact you're arguing that DY is only 2-3 wins worse than Victor Martinez is crazy. That's sort of the same problem I have with WAR. No matter how hard you try, and no matter what numbers you use, it is nearly impossible to quantify how many "wins" a player is worth. As a matter of fact, if it had a different name I would probably like it more.

Victor is a better hitter in the clutch, which will help the team win by driving in runs.
Victor hits for a higher average, which will help the team win by adding to the score.
Victor is a more patient hitter, which will help the team win by getting the opposing starter out of the game sooner.

Your numbers say Victor is only worth 2-3 more wins, and maybe that's true, but my eye, and what I HAVE seen, tells me otherwise.

Jeffy25
10-11-2012, 12:18 AM
Yeah yeah. I confused myself a little bit. It happens :D.

But the fact you're arguing that DY is only 2-3 wins worse than Victor Martinez is crazy. That's sort of the same problem I have with WAR. No matter how hard you try, and no matter what numbers you use, it is nearly impossible to quantify how many "wins" a player is worth. As a matter of fact, if it had a different name I would probably like it more.

Victor is a better hitter in the clutch, which will help the team win by driving in runs.
Victor hits for a higher average, which will help the team win by adding to the score.
Victor is a more patient hitter, which will help the team win by getting the opposing starter out of the game sooner.

Your numbers say Victor is only worth 2-3 more wins, and maybe that's true, but my eye, and what I HAVE seen, tells me otherwise.

It isn't WAR

It's how many runs each player produces offensively


It is really hard for an individual to produce a win in major league baseball.

Very hard.


Delmon Young created 63 runs offensively this season. It's very measurable.

Victor Marintez averages about 80-90 runs created offensively each year.

That's 20-30 runs, which equates to 2-3 runs. I'm sure it helps the team in other ways, but that is the equivalent value.

Just to compare. Delmon Young reached base this season 178 times this season, and had 46 extra base hits

Victor Martinez in 2011 reached base 232 times (so 50 more times), and had 52 extra base hits.

He is def better, no question. But the value isn't as high as one might assume. 2-3 wins seems reasonable, and it is measurable. But there are factors that surround his presence in the lineup that are not measurable. So he obviously could be worth more than that. But if the Tigers have him in the lineup next year instead of Delmon Young (and all other things were the exact same), you can assume a few more wins next season out this Tigers group.


As I type this, it looks like the Tigers are heading to the ALCS.

natepro
10-11-2012, 08:01 AM
When Victor is in the dugout, we are a happy go lucky team that gets on huge hot stretches. Without him, we are much more neutral.

Is it just me, or is this actually kind of a weird insult to the rest of the Tigers?

jej
10-11-2012, 09:20 AM
Weren't people saying there were things you couldn't measure that favored Cabby?

Should he be able to pump up his team then, if his intangibles are better than Trouts?

lol, please
10-11-2012, 06:15 PM
"Buster truly is the MVP" Pence

OpenAvalin
10-11-2012, 06:44 PM
Seriously. I have no idea why more people are saying Buck. Melvin has been much better and worked with a lot less than Showalter. Also $20 million less of a payroll... How is this even close?

ESPN took a poll and 70% said Showalter, 18% said Melvin, and 12% said other. Are you kidding me?

cbreezy34
10-11-2012, 06:55 PM
I wholeheardetly agree.

Guppyfighter
10-11-2012, 06:55 PM
I don't see how you can say Melvin worked with less. He has Gomes/Seth, a righty/lefty specialist. Carter/Moss, which is another righty/lefty specialty set. He had a terrible middle infield for a while, but that was fixed. Our two best power hitters hit from opposite sides. He plays the match up well and should win MOY because we won the division. But he has not had less to work with. Buck has.

MetsFanatic19
10-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Yep. I could see the case for Buck, but Melvin took what were a bunch of no-name players assembled into one big crappy team and made them AL West champions, over the powerhouse Rangers.

He deserves it 100%.

agureghian
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
I don't see how you can say Melvin worked with less. He has Gomes/Seth, a righty/lefty specialist. Carter/Moss, which is another righty/lefty specialty set. He had a terrible middle infield for a while, but that was fixed. Our two best power hitters hit from opposite sides. He plays the match up well and should win MOY because we won the division. But he has not had less to work with. Buck has.

Billy's genius shouldnt be hurting Melvin's MOY chances.
-team melvin-

dodgersuck
10-11-2012, 09:28 PM
Billy's genius shouldnt be hurting Melvin's MOY chances.
-team melvin-

I don't think it should really help his chances either. I think it is more impressive that Baltimore is in the playoffs considering they came out of the AL East.

Rush
10-11-2012, 09:39 PM
Seriously. I have no idea why more people are saying Buck. Melvin has been much better and worked with a lot less than Showalter. Also $20 million less of a payroll... How is this even close?

ESPN took a poll and 70% said Showalter, 18% said Melvin, and 12% said other. Are you kidding me?

ESPN voters also had Cabrera winning the MVP in a landslide. Thats should tell you something about ESPN voters.

YoungStuna
10-11-2012, 10:56 PM
It's Showalter hands down for me.

Orioles +7 differential 93-69 record
Athletics +99 differential 94-68 record

The A's are just much better talent-wise than everyone thought. The Orioles have overachieved and Buck deserves the credit for that imo.

Driven
10-12-2012, 12:18 AM
I would probably pick Melvin, but I don't know why anyone would be upset if Buck won it.

Leandres_sf
10-12-2012, 01:44 AM
Seriously. I have no idea why more people are saying Buck. Melvin has been much better and worked with a lot less than Showalter. Also $20 million less of a payroll... How is this even close?

ESPN took a poll and 70% said Showalter, 18% said Melvin, and 12% said other. Are you kidding me?

Agreed, Melvin would be my choice for AL MOY. I don't see how it's even a question.

metswon69
10-12-2012, 08:58 AM
Agreed, Melvin would be my choice for AL MOY. I don't see how it's even a question.

I think it's pretty equal with Showalter.

Maybe they win co-managers of the year.

KrunchyGoodness
10-12-2012, 01:54 PM
I don't think it should really help his chances either. I think it is more impressive that Baltimore is in the playoffs considering they came out of the AL East.

I agree with everything but the bold. The AL West is by far the best division in baseball. See out of division records. Mariners are one win away from the entire division being over .500 against other AL divisions.

giants73756
10-12-2012, 02:54 PM
Yep, it's pretty clear that the AL West was the best division. Good luck staying that way next year with your new 5th team. :p

KrunchyGoodness
10-12-2012, 02:58 PM
Yep, it's pretty clear that the AL West was the best division. Good luck staying that way next year with your new 5th team. :p

Balance, isn't baseball just great?

raidersrock99
10-13-2012, 02:20 PM
posey mvp

MetsFanatic19
10-13-2012, 08:12 PM
When do the awards gets announced? I always seem to forget.

fadedmario
10-13-2012, 09:26 PM
Getting closer to Cabrera getting his MVP

jej
10-13-2012, 09:39 PM
God you are toolin it up.

fadedmario
10-13-2012, 09:49 PM
God you are toolin it up.

Reported for insults.

jej
10-13-2012, 11:02 PM
Fine with me. Speaking the truth. Should I report you for baiting?

StriveGreatness
10-13-2012, 11:09 PM
Fine with me. Speaking the truth. Should I report you for baiting?

How was he baiting?

fadedmario
10-13-2012, 11:10 PM
Fine with me. Speaking the truth. Should I report you for baiting?

:facepalm:

fadedmario
10-13-2012, 11:14 PM
I was kidding too. I never reported anything. Can't wait for the Mvp results so this can be over. Shouldnt get attacked for mentioning Cabrera in an awards thread considering he will probably win Mvp and the Silver Slugger.

jej
10-14-2012, 12:51 AM
How was he baiting?

Well, that thread he started was a total bait-fest.

And that comment was said in a condescending way at the Trout supporters.

Jeffy25
10-14-2012, 03:24 PM
I was kidding too. I never reported anything. Can't wait for the Mvp results so this can be over. Shouldnt get attacked for mentioning Cabrera in an awards thread considering he will probably win Mvp and the Silver Slugger.

Pretty sure everyone has universally agreed that Cabrera will win the MVP.


It doesn't mean he deserves it, which is what all the debates are about.

THINKBLUE15
10-15-2012, 12:21 AM
MVP/Cy should be
Trout/Verlander
Braun/Kershaw

northsider
10-15-2012, 03:00 PM
He may not be the most deserving however saying he isn't deserving is just down right silly. He had a monster season offensively this year and I won't lose sleep seeing him get the award even though Trout had the better season.

JohnnyTsunami01
10-15-2012, 05:00 PM
NL MVP should be Molina. Posey's numbers were not that much better offensively than Molina. Molina had above .300 average and 22 HRs. Not too mention what he means not just defensively, but to the cardinals pitching staff

1903
10-15-2012, 05:04 PM
NL MVP should be Molina. Posey's numbers were not that much better offensively than Molina. Molina had above .300 average and 22 HRs. Not too mention what he means not just defensively, but to the cardinals pitching staff

No he shouldn't. Molina had a great season and would even say when looking back many fans will forget it or underrate what he did. However Posey was clearly better offensively and you can forget HRs and AVG.

metswon69
10-15-2012, 05:14 PM
Yeah you factor in that Posey's fWAR was 8 compared to Molina's 6.5, it's Posey everytime.

Molina is a fantastic catcher but it's really hard to overlook the numbers Posey put up this year.

He won the batting title (.336), hit 24 homers and had 103 RBIS, his wOBA was over .400 too.

Jeffy25
10-15-2012, 07:11 PM
No he shouldn't. Molina had a great season and would even say when looking back many fans will forget it or underrate what he did. However Posey was clearly better offensively and you can forget HRs and AVG.

Posey was better offensively, but he was also worth about 2 less wins defensively.

They are insanely close in value this season.

Breaking it down, I would vote Posey just ahead of Molina. But they are crazy close. Posey, while not a bad defender, just does not compare to Molina.

Jeffy25
10-15-2012, 07:11 PM
Yeah you factor in that Posey's fWAR was 8 compared to Molina's 6.5, it's Posey everytime.

Molina is a fantastic catcher but it's really hard to overlook the numbers Posey put up this year.

He won the batting title (.336), hit 24 homers and had 103 RBIS, his wOBA was over .400 too.

fwiw, their rWAR is far closer, 7.2-6.7

fWAR using UZR for catchers is just stupid.

metswon69
10-15-2012, 07:19 PM
fwiw, their rWAR is far closer, 7.2-6.7

fWAR using UZR for catchers is just stupid.

Yeah i was just using an example, could have referenced either one though to make the case that Posey is still the more valuable player even if its less apparent with fWAR than rWAR.

Jeffy25
10-15-2012, 07:28 PM
Yeah i was just using an example, could have referenced either one though to make the case that Posey is still the more valuable player even if its less apparent with fWAR than rWAR.

Well them, Molina beats Posey in Net Runs Totaled :p

metswon69
10-15-2012, 07:34 PM
Well them, Molina beats Posey in Net Runs Totaled :p

Well that's your area of expertise, will remember next time rWAR is the better evaluator of catcher's position than fWAR.

But either way, you did say Posey's rWAR is higher than Molina's.

Their numbers are similar regardless especially if you factor out RBIS and it's without question Molina is the better defensive catcher so i understand the argument but to me it's also about Posey's value (especially offensively) in relation to that team.

Molina plays on a very good offensive team, Posey has pieces but the Cardinals as you know are stacked offensively.

Drow17
10-15-2012, 07:37 PM
NL MVP should be Molina. Posey's numbers were not that much better offensively than Molina. Molina had above .300 average and 22 HRs. Not too mention what he means not just defensively, but to the cardinals pitching staff

Lol. Cute
Posey led the NL in Avg, and had more HR's, and RBI than Molina. And while we're talking about handling a pitching staff, he called a perfect game.

1903
10-15-2012, 07:43 PM
Posey was better offensively, but he was also worth about 2 less wins defensively.

They are insanely close in value this season.

Breaking it down, I would vote Posey just ahead of Molina. But they are crazy close. Posey, while not a bad defender, just does not compare to Molina.

I completely agree that Molina is the better defensive catcher. However I think it's safe to say that offense from a catcher will catch the eyes of more voters than defense. Posey makes up the value he loses on defense with his offense. I think overall he had the better season and my initial post was to point out that while Molina was good he was not quite good enough to nudge Posey from top spot.

If a catcher is going to win MVP, it will be Posey.

Jeffy25
10-15-2012, 07:52 PM
I completely agree that Molina is the better defensive catcher. However I think it's safe to say that offense from a catcher will catch the eyes of more voters than defense. Posey makes up the value he loses on defense with his offense. I think overall he had the better season and my initial post was to point out that while Molina was good he was not quite good enough to nudge Posey from top spot.

If a catcher is going to win MVP, it will be Posey.

Oh, Posey is going to win, no doubt.

And Molina doesn't necessarily deserve it over him. Posey winning will not be a bad thing.

Braun is the only true argument for Posey, and Cutch is an outside bet, but really belongs in 3rd.

Posey will win.

jej
10-15-2012, 08:04 PM
Lol. Cute
Posey led the NL in Avg, and had more HR's, and RBI than Molina. And while we're talking about handling a pitching staff, he called a perfect game.

I agree, but not because he has a higher average or more RBIs.

And you cant really argue that Posey's D is comparable to Molina's just because he has Matt Cain on his team..

Rush
10-16-2012, 12:58 AM
Lol. Cute
Posey led the NL in Avg, and had more HR's, and RBI than Molina. And while we're talking about handling a pitching staff, he called a perfect game.

BA, HR, and RBI aren't a good measure to compare players. Calling a perfect game is really irrelevant in my opinion. And this is all coming from a Giants fan. But I hope Posey wins.

lol, please
10-16-2012, 03:24 AM
BA, HR, and RBI aren't a good measure to compare players. Calling a perfect game is really irrelevant in my opinion. And this is all coming from a Giants fan. But I hope Posey wins.

:clap:

Drow17
10-17-2012, 02:32 AM
You guys didn't pick up the sarcasm in the perfect game comment. Handling a pitching staff should have nothing to do with choosing an MVP, in that case we should give it to outfielders for calling for every ball that comes their way.

Krush
10-17-2012, 04:00 AM
NL MVP: Posey
AL MVP: Cabrera
NL Cy Young: Kershaw
AL Cy Young: Verlander

Drow17
11-15-2012, 11:30 PM
AL MVP - Cabrera
NL MVP - Posey
AL Cy Young - either Price or Weaver
NL Cy Young - either Dickey or Gonzalez
AL ROY - Trout
NL ROY - Harper or Frazier

Soooooo..... When do I get my medal? Remember that time everybody was giving me crap for thinking Posey and Cabrera would win MVP? Or that I didn't choose Verlander or Kershaw? TAKE IT.

Jeffy25
11-15-2012, 11:34 PM
Soooooo..... When do I get my medal? Remember that time everybody was giving me crap for thinking Posey and Cabrera would win MVP? Or that I didn't choose Verlander or Kershaw? TAKE IT.

Congrats for thinking like the voters?


Were you attempting to predict the winners, or what you feel the winners should be?

MetsFanatic19
11-15-2012, 11:35 PM
Soooooo..... When do I get my medal? Remember that time everybody was giving me crap for thinking Posey and Cabrera would win MVP? Or that I didn't choose Verlander or Kershaw? TAKE IT.

http://you-win-the-internet.com/?n=Drow17

Jeffy25
11-15-2012, 11:35 PM
Oh, Posey is going to win, no doubt.

And Molina doesn't necessarily deserve it over him. Posey winning will not be a bad thing.

Braun is the only true argument for Posey, and Cutch is an outside bet, but really belongs in 3rd.

Posey will win.

here is mine

I actually pretty fairly well successfully predicted the top 5 in each.

I did think Verlander would win over Price though

metswon69
11-15-2012, 11:38 PM
Soooooo..... When do I get my medal? Remember that time everybody was giving me crap for thinking Posey and Cabrera would win MVP? Or that I didn't choose Verlander or Kershaw? TAKE IT.

Do you think you were the only one with those picks?

Most posters here had Posey as the NL MVP.

A lot of posters also realized that once Miggy won the Triple Crown most of the sentiment for Trout would be gone (undeservedly so but the case nonetheless)

Dickey and Kershaw were the frontrunners for the Cy Young in the NL and same with Price and Verlander in the AL (which you were wrong about Gio and Weaver because neither finished 2nd)

Drow17
11-15-2012, 11:38 PM
Congrats for thinking like the voters?


Were you attempting to predict the winners, or what you feel the winners should be?

Both

Drow17
11-15-2012, 11:46 PM
Do you think you were the only one with those picks?

Most posters here had Posey as the NL MVP.

A lot of posters also realized that once Miggy won the Triple Crown a lot of the sentiment for Trout would be gone (undeservedly so but the case nonetheless)

Dickey and Kershaw were the frontrunners for the Cy Young in the NL and same with Price and Verlander in the AL (which you were wrong about Gio and Weaver because neither finished 2nd)

K. Doesn't change the fact that all my predictions were still right.